Patterico's Pontifications

9/27/2022

Affidavits Filed In Ohio: Two More Minors Made Pregnant By Sexual Assault

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:02 pm



[guest post by Dana]

There is no exception for cases of rape and incest in Ohio’s six-week abortion ban:

At least two more minors made pregnant by sexual assault were forced to leave Ohio to avoid having their rapists’ babies, according to sworn affidavits filed by abortion providers…The affidavits were filed in Cincinnati as part of a lawsuit aimed at stopping the enforcement of Ohio’s strict new abortion law. Originally paused for two weeks, the enforcement delay will be extended to at least Oct. 12…If true, the affidavits show that a 10-year-old from Columbus was not the only child or teen rape victim forced to leave the state.

–Dana

125 Responses to “Affidavits Filed In Ohio: Two More Minors Made Pregnant By Sexual Assault”

  1. Everything about this is horrible.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. Not any right to lifers seem to want to comment on this. I wonder why ??? In last case they said fake news then prosecute the doctor. In Az their is now an almost total ban on abortion from 100 year old law that a new law says can be enforced. Hopefully the voters will give these politcians the post natal political abortion they deserve.

    asset (b04817)

  3. The Ohio law was just recently enacted, we will see if the voters give them the boot. The Ohio law is may be immoral and cruel, but it is working as intended.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. asset (b04817) — 9/27/2022 @ 1:34 pm

    Liar. There is my comment on your comment.

    I don’t have any problem with Ohio, or any State, not allowing the murder of an innocent human being. I do have a problem with anyone who sympathizes with those who are “inconvenienced” by this just policy.

    Instead of complaining about the denial of murder, why no direct outrage at the rapist? Prevent the rape instead.

    felipe (484255)

  5. @4 Not when I posted so I am not lying. I don’t have any problem not killing human beings ;but a fetus is not yet a human being it is an unwanted growth. The prosecution of the rapist falls under other laws. This ruling came in the middle of primary season so were still stuck with snowflake wimp liberals running for office. Hopefully next election we will be able to vote for candidates who will get tough with the anti-choicers.

    asset (b04817)

  6. @1. Yep. Rescinding a right can do that.

    DCSCA (d8f1a7)

  7. It would helpful if the abortion proponents would identify when the fetus becomes the sort of thing that it is wrong to kill. Presumably, that happens at some point prior to birth? Or does it happen after birth?

    mikeybates (dd20f5)

  8. @4 for clarity I was posting about anti-choice comments like yours not dana’s comment which I mostly agree with.

    asset (b04817)

  9. @7 It is the hight of irrationality to deal with an irrational world as though it were rational. John paul sarte. I say to right to lifers as Jesus said to judas “Do you really care so much about the poor” Hypocrites then hypocrites now! Thanks to rethugs are social welfare system especially in red states trys to discourage and punish women trying to raise children on welfare. Many if not most here believe welfare is socialism and private charities that would be overwhelmed (Most are now) so they don’t have to pay taxes for unwanted children like in third world countries where children live in dumps eating garbage.

    asset (b04817)

  10. @9 so it’s after birth, then? If it’s wrong to kill, say, a 5-year-old, then it becomes wrong at some point during the course of development. So at what point?

    mikeybates (dd20f5)

  11. I have zero issue with this bill.

    Everyone, then knows the new deadline in the state of Ohio and will adjust accordingly.

    What I have trouble fathoming, is that the hottest of rage over the billing isn’t over the alleged rapist, but over this new law.

    Priorities are out of whack here.

    whembly (b770f8)

  12. whembly @ 11,

    Except that when you say “everyone…will adjust accordingly,” you ignore that there are minor victims of rape who are pregnant. Clearly, rapists are not going to “adjust accordingly,” so it’s a bit preposterous to simplify such a complex situation. How do rape victims “adjust accordingly”? Suck it up, buttercup, and just have your baby! Too bad, so sad, now carry that rape baby to term! Like that?

    You are placing the entire burden of “adjusting accordingly” on minor rape victims.

    It is possible to be both pro-life and to recognize that sometimes there is a gray area in life that is brutal, painful, complicated, has no winners, and one where heartbreaking decisions must sometimes be made. To think that there isn’t cruelty like this is to live in a black-and-white world of naivete and self-righteousness.

    Dana (1225fc)

  13. I want to add: I do feel like a hypocrite to some degree because I do consider myself pro-life but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve backed off from a hardline stance because it’s become too difficult to maintain, and there are too many hoops to jump in order to support what I now consider unreasonable: no abortion, no exceptions. To me, that sort of extreme stance ignores the twisted world in which we live. Yes, it would be ideal if there were no abortions whatsoever. But what do you then do about rape and incest victims, especially those who are children themselves? Throw them to the wolves and tell them to tough it out? What about those whose small bodies couldn’t possibly deliver a baby safely without damaging themselves? While those instances are not common occurrences, they do happen. And certainly, rape victims end up pregnant, whether teenagers or adult women. So, what about them?

    This is not a simple, clear-cut issue for me. It’s a complicated issue and in which I am trying to strike a balance that I can live with. Anyone who can glibly insist on one extreme or the opposite extreme is not someone with whom I share much common ground. Those edges are the easy places to reside: clear-cut, no exceptions, no debate, no soul-searching required. I simply can’t sit in either residence.

    Dana (1225fc)

  14. While I have no love for the Ohio law, why did it take more than 6 weeks to get around to this?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  15. I repeat that this kind of ugliness is a good reason to have a federal law. I suspect that the Democrats will be more willing after the midterms, but until them they intend to use these situations (and those victimized by them) as election issues. They could end this any day they want. But they don’t want.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  16. “I don’t have any problem not killing human beings”

    That’s reassuring. Please let us know when that changes, thanks!

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  17. To whom is your quote directed, Haiku?

    Dana (1225fc)

  18. asset

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  19. OT- … we were about due for another one… =sigh=

    5 high school football players shot, 1 dead in drive-by: Police

    A 14-year-old is dead and four other high school football players were wounded after gunfire erupted behind a Philadelphia high school Tuesday afternoon, police said. – ABCNews.com

    “Madness. Madness!” – Major Clipton [James Donald] ‘Bridge On The River Kwai’ 1957

    DCSCA (48ea1c)

  20. According to the AG this is more BS. I’m guessing they don’t want to prosecute rapists like the illegal that was the original one.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  21. I’m guessing they don’t want to prosecute rapists like the illegal that was the original one.

    Who, of course, is being prosecuted.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  22. Yes,

    because of the attention to the case. Thanks for waking up Rip.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  23. It is not an either/or choice to be in favor of abortion for a minor rape victim and in favor of prosecuting rapists. The two are not incompatible.

    Governor Abbott of Texas promised that Texas would ‘eliminate all rapists from the streets’ after signing a pro-life law that didn’t include exceptions for rape or incest, but it hasn’t worked out that way.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  24. It is all too tempting to have conviction in one’s stances. It feels good to have clear-cut answers for all of life’s questions. Add ego into the mix, and voila, those answers might as well be etched in stone.

    So many people are incapable of nuance, compromise, or a change of mind.

    norcal (da5491)

  25. Comment by Dana (1225fc) — 9/27/2022 @ 3:06 pm

    I agree with you entirely.

    nk (540a06)

  26. “I’m guessing they don’t want to prosecute rapists like the illegal that was the original one.”

    Who is “they”? The police were made aware of the rape on June 22 but waited a month before charging.

    Davethulhu (1c5b32)

  27. Everyone, then knows the new deadline in the state of Ohio and will adjust accordingly.

    Six weeks likely encompasses only one missed period. Not every woman is clear on what that means, and delays in getting healthcare — particularly if you don’t have a regular doctor — are often longer than 6 weeks.

    Roe short-circuited a process that is now just beginning, but most other nations have gone through it long ago.

    Of the countries that allow “on demand” abortions, only Turkmenistan and Guyana have limits under 10 weeks.

    Of the nations that allow abortions in cases of rape, only Panama, Indonesia and the Central African Republic are under 10 weeks (all three prohibit elective abortions).

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  28. OF course quite a few countries prohibit abortions in rape cases:

    Abkhazia, Afghanistan, Algeria, Andorra, Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Belize, Brunei, Burundi, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, East Timor, Egypt, El Salvador, Gambia, Grenada, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Iran, Iraq, Jamaica, Jordan, Kiribati, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Madagascar, Malawi, Malaysia, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Micronesia, Morocco, Myanmar, Nicaragua, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Pakistan, Palau, Palestine, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Qatar, Saint Kitts and Nevi, Samoa, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Syria, Tanzania, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Tuvalu, United Arab Emirates, Vanuatu, Vatican City, Venezuela, and Yemen

    People should feel free to move to one of these places.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  29. And of course there are a few countries that legally require a woman to die if that’s what God wills: Abkhazia, Andorra, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Honduras, Madagascar, Malta, Nicaragua, Philippines, Vatican City

    I’m sure that there are plenty of misogynists and incels who think we ought to have laws like that, too.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  30. I don’t really care what other countries do. US laws should be decided independent of other countries.

    Rip Murdock (5192cb)

  31. Thulu,

    the abortionist that lied about the age of the rapist for one. The mother for another.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  32. Kevin,

    you get really ugly when it comes to people who disagree with your views on abortion.

    Carry on.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  33. “the abortionist that lied about the age of the rapist for one”

    This didn’t happen.

    “The mother for another.”

    It’s not up to the mom who gets prosecuted.

    Davethulhu (1c5b32)

  34. Did happen.

    If the mother and the abortionist don’t report the rape, how do you think prosecution occurs?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  35. I don’t really care what other countries do. US laws should be decided independent of other countries.

    In the 50 years that we didn’t have the options, most of the first world settled on some general rules. We will do this eventually, and it won’t be the fascist theocracy that you want, Rip.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  36. And of course there are a few countries that legally require a woman to die if that’s what God wills: … Vatican City

    The acceptance of, and obedience to, celibates and monastics dictating rules about birth and marriage has always struck me as one of the quirkiest of human foibles.

    nk (540a06)

  37. you get really ugly when it comes to people who disagree with your views on abortion.

    I get really ugly when it comes to [expletives deleted] who want to make life hell for women who apparently prefer other men.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  38. @ 14 Kevin, the developmental age of the fetus is measured from the last period.

    Assuming a 28 day cycle.
    Day 0 last period
    Day 14 woman is ovulating.
    Day 28 first missed period
    Day 42 (week 6) woman is 2 weeks late for her period. Abortion is now illegal in Ohio.

    pregnancy tests can take about 2 weeks after conception to detect pregnancy.

    So assuming a regular cycle, a Child who is rapped 2 weeks after her last period has to wait about 2 weeks to take a pregnancy test, find out she’s pregnant, and then she has another 2 weeks to get an abortion. Seems a cruel thing to do to a child that’s just been the victim of a heinous crime, but that’s just me

    6 weeks was selected because that’s the soonest we can detect electric signals in the muscle tissues that will eventually become a heart. At 6 weeks the fetus is ~6mm (1/4 in) long.

    Time123 (c275b7)

  39. > I do have a problem with anyone who sympathizes with those who are “inconvenienced” by this just policy.

    You have a problem with anyone who sympathizes with a young girl whose life is *forever* changed without her consent?

    That’s honestly one of the most incredible things i’ve ever seen someone say here.

    I know people who never want to be parents, and I know people who would make terrible parents, and to have the choice to parent or not taken away from you because someone raped you and made you pregnant is simply unfathomable.

    aphrael (b10132)

  40. NJRob, Your summary of the previous incident is dishonest. The police were notified and working on the case prior to the national news outrage.

    I linked a couple of sources if you care about accuracy in this one. I’ll point out the Ohio AG’s public statements were not factually accurate. I’m not saying he lied, it’s very possible he just didn’t know the details and hadn’t done his due diligence before he declared that the event didn’t happen.

    Time123 (c275b7)

  41. The Indiana doctor who performed the abortion on the Ohio girl could only put down on the form the age of the molester that the family told her. She was not there. She did not witness the rape. She did not check his ID.

    Can you understand that? Do you want to understand that?

    Second, whatever her real motives, the doctor was the one who brought out the child molestation. The 10-year old’s mother wanted it kept under wraps. And the Indiana Attorney General threatened the doctor with HIPAA for doing so, and I don’t even want to guess his motives.

    nk (540a06)

  42. 6 weeks was selected because that’s the soonest

    FIFY. The rest of that is just talk. I do understand the numbers, but health care is not something everyone can whistle up. Some women are ignorant, careless, busy, procrastinators or, well, just stupid. But all of those should have rights.

    The civilized world has made the determination that 12-15 weeks is about right for anything other than an emergency. Here in the USA, we have states )Arizona, Arkansas, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Texas and Wisconsin that have laws more hostile towards women than Saudi Arabia and Iran.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  43. Again, while the US has been hung up on Roe and the courts, the rest of the world has had FIFTY YEARS to work through things. Maybe they’ve found the center of this. God knows neither the Democrats nor the GOP has a clue as yet.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  44. “Did happen.”

    No, it didn’t. Wingnuts were so mad that the story turned out to be true that they just made up stories about the doctor. She was in a different state and didn’t know the details of the case.

    “If the mother and the abortionist don’t report the rape, how do you think prosecution occurs?”

    The referring doctor reported the rape. The doctor performing the abortion reported what she knew. The “they” who didn’t do anything until the case got national coverage were the police, who, as we’ve seen a lot lately, are either deliberately or malignly neglectful.

    Davethulhu (1c5b32)

  45. The “they” who didn’t do anything until the case got national coverage were the police, who, as we’ve seen a lot lately, are either deliberately or malignly neglectful.
    Davethulhu (1c5b32) — 9/27/2022 @ 7:06 pm

    except this wasn’t his first offense

    the “they” who are being deliberately neglectful of the law in this case is the administration who lets unvetted illegals into the country and protects their illegal status

    JF (8c34fc)

  46. WTF difference does it make who reported what? The law is STILL an ass.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  47. So assuming a regular cycle, a Child who is rapped 2 weeks after her last period has to wait about 2 weeks to take a pregnancy test, find out she’s pregnant, and then she has another 2 weeks to get an abortion.

    I would point out too that it’s very common for young girls (12-16 range) to have erratic periods, and even skip their periods because of their ages, and the relatively new event of menustration.

    Dana (1225fc)

  48. In the 50 years that we didn’t have the options, most of the first world settled on some general rules. We will do this eventually, and it won’t be the fascist theocracy that you want, Rip.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/27/2022 @ 6:28 pm

    My opposition to abortion is personal, not political or religious.

    Rip Murdock (5192cb)

  49. Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/27/2022 @ 6:28 pm

    NJRob is right about how you treat opposing views on abortion.

    Rip Murdock (5192cb)

  50. No, it didn’t. Wingnuts were so mad that the story turned out to be true that they just made up stories about the doctor.

    Yes! I remember that now! They, and they know who they are, started out, vehemently, calling the doctor’s report a lie. Including the Ohio AG.

    nk (540a06)

  51. nk (540a06) — 9/27/2022 @ 7:42 pm

    darn that Glenn Kessler

    JF (8c34fc)

  52. Oh? We like WaPo now? And believe its “fact-checker” too? And, yeah, you’d have a point if Glenn Kessler were the only one called the doctor’s report a lie (which I’m guessing is your implication).

    nk (540a06)

  53. aphrael (b10132) — 9/27/2022 @ 6:33 pm

    Hello, aphreal. I respond to your comment because I respect you.

    You have a problem with anyone who sympathizes with a young girl whose life is *forever* changed without her consent?

    No, what you said is not what I said. I do definitely sympathize with her for the reason you stated. It may be that my manner of speaking was subtle to the point of being misunderstood – I will be blunt:

    “Those who are ‘inconvenienced’…” Does not refer to the victim, the victim’s family, or friends – whatever their human reaction might be. It refers to supporters, funders, and providers of abortion. The abortion ecosystem if you will.

    That’s honestly one of the most incredible things i’ve ever seen someone say here.

    You are referring, of course, to your own devised statement, not mine. I would never utter the sentence you constructed because I would never think it. It is dishonest of you to do that to anyone.

    I know people who never want to be parents, and I know people who would make terrible parents, and to have the choice to parent or not taken away from you because someone raped you and made you pregnant is simply unfathomable.

    Not only do I know such people myself, but have successfully counseled women to bear their children to term. Not one of them have regretted their decision – whether the child was given up for adoption or raised. In the case of Rape, yes, the victim had no choice in the crime. It was he who denied her the choice.

    “Unfathomable.” Abortion takes away the choice to “parent a child” from loving people who yearn to adopt – even heterosexuals unable to conceive. A member of my extended family Who, married his boyfriend, once California made it possible, adopted an “unwanted child” – his words not mine. Did they ask “was this child a result of incest or rape?” Of course not. I doubt it would have mattered. Cody is thriving today because his mother said no to the pro-choice pressure.

    It is a denial of science to say that a fetus is not a “human being.” It is unjust, unloving, and monstrous to end the life of any innocent human being.

    Why don’t we hear from a mother who cared for the most vulnerable and least loved? It is worth 34 minutes of your time.

    felipe (484255)

  54. If 34 minutes is too long, try this.

    felipe (484255)

  55. Instead of complaining about the denial of murder, why no direct outrage at the rapist? Prevent the rape instead.

    I am outraged at the rapist. However, in practical terms, how do you and I prevent rape from taking place?

    Dana (1225fc)

  56. Speaking of those who are celibate. Not necessarily men, mind you.

    felipe (484255)

  57. he fact checked trump on freaking crowd sizes, but won’t fact check biden on the border control whips lie or the still unsubstantiated 10-year old abortion tall tale

    JF (33414e) — 7/9/2022 @ 8:52 am

    Davethulhu (1c5b32)

  58. Not only do I know such people myself, but have successfully counseled women to bear their children to term. Not one of them have regretted their decision – whether the child was given up for adoption or raised.

    That’s nice. But it was their choice. How about the women and girls who see it as nine-month prolongation, with a painful and dangerous termination, of the rape?

    nk (c50445)

  59. the still unsubstantiated 10-year old abortion tall tale

    Good grief! You gonna be a witness at Gerson Fuentes’s trial?

    nk (c50445)

  60. I am outraged at the rapist. However, in practical terms, how do you and I prevent rape from taking place?
    Dana (1225fc) — 9/27/2022 @ 8:08 pm

    That’s easy to answer but very hard to do. Guard women. All women. Always and everywhere. Men must take up this chivalry. My father drilled it into me and my brothers, our duty to safeguard our sisters – and by extension all women.

    felipe (484255)

  61. And I don’t have anything against celibacy. In fact, I wish more people had practiced it. I said what I found irrational: The people who accept and obey their rules regarding birth and marriage.

    nk (c50445)

  62. How about the women and girls who see it as nine-month prolongation, with a painful and dangerous termination, of the rape?
    nk (c50445) — 9/27/2022 @ 8:21 pm

    I cannot answer to how a victim sees things. But I understand that there are professionals called doctors who might have ideas?

    a painful and dangerous termination, of the rape?

    I know you meant “pregnancy.”

    Still, pregnancy is a temporary situation, while abortion is permanent.

    felipe (484255)

  63. nk (c50445) — 9/27/2022 @ 8:31 pm

    Heh. There are things far more irrational, being accepted and obeyed, even as we speak!

    felipe (484255)

  64. I cannot answer to how a victim sees things. But I understand that there are professionals called doctors who might have ideas?

    And one of them might be abortion? Abortion is a medical procedure, you know, and permissible only to doctors even during Roe v. Wade.

    I know you meant “pregnancy.”

    I meant pregnancy and childbirth.

    There was a Texas thankfully soon-to-be-ex-Governor who said about rape, and I’m quoting the reporters he said it in front of, “If it’s inevitable, just relax and enjoy it”.

    That’s what the “no rape exception” people are doing. They’re telling the rape victims: “You’re gonna be a mommy because we don’t allow abortions for rape so just relax and enjoy it”.

    nk (c50445)

  65. How about the women and girls who see it as nine-month prolongation, with a painful and dangerous termination, of the rape?
    nk (c50445) — 9/27/2022 @ 8:21 pm

    Let me apologize for missing some of your implied question.

    Each woman who sought my advice was afraid of the unknown but, otherwise, was healthy. So I have no experience of that situation.

    My counseling days are well and done.

    felipe (484255)

  66. nk (c50445) — 9/27/2022 @ 8:56 pm

    OMG, nk! I remember that guy! But Texas Gov? I thought he ran against Ann Richards, and his comment tanked his campaign. Truly despicable, and of course his wife stood by him against the media with the words “why that’s just ranch talk, they aught’a be ashamed of themselves!”

    People couldn’t wait to vote for Ann Richards fast enough – was it Ann Richard’s? That wasn’t so long ago, but…wait, what were we talking about?

    felipe (484255)

  67. I’m all tuckered out – Goodnight nk, goodnight Dana – thank you for your posts and your great perspective.

    felipe (484255)

  68. NJRob is right about how you treat opposing views on abortion.

    The positions being taken by the extremists on both sides piss me off. I turn the same ire on those who think that elective third-trimester abortions are perfectly fine.

    70% of the population wants both extremes to STFU.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  69. Beginning at six weeks (or whenever a fetal heartbeat is detected) Georgia will you a $3,000 tax exemption.

    The state’s Department of Revenue announced (in August) that “any unborn child with a detectable human heartbeat” can be claimed as dependent, providing a $3,000 tax exemption for each pregnancy within a household, months before the child is born.

    Rip Murdock (5192cb)

  70. The positions being taken by the extremists on both sides piss me off.

    You should control your emotions.

    Rip Murdock (5192cb)

  71. Why? Both the infanticiders and the anti-contraceptionists are taking positions that are beyond the pale. Truly hateful positions. Should I say otherwise?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  72. Kevin, you make a very good point about the rest of the world settling the abortion question during the 50 years the U.S. dickered over Roe.

    I agree with you completely about the reasonableness of a 12 to 15 week threshold. Alas, too many Americans want things cut and dried. Absolutes just feel so good, and the more steeped in them one is, the better they feel. For many, a change of opinion is tantamount to a crisis of faith.

    norcal (da5491)

  73. We will settle this issue. As john brown said at his trial It is yet to be decided. Pro choice in some form is 83% of the population. When you look into they abyss the abyss looks into you. F. Nietzsche. Wimp liberal democrats fear what is to be done. The left will help the biden/clinton wing of the party to do the right thing. It will take a short period of time to get the juggernaut moving that will crush all before it, because wimp liberal democrats didn’t want to believe it could happen. The gun nuts who were never the majority defeated gun control democrats to the point that obama when he left office proudly proclaimed that he didn’t take the gun nuts guns away even after newtown. Democrats can do the same on abortion. November is coming and woe be to establishment democrats if they fail to rally the democrat party as the left base will have their scalps.

    asset (8d9bea)

  74. felipe (484255) — 9/27/2022 @ 9:08 pm

    You’re right. Clayton Williams was the GOP nominee for governor, not the governor.

    nk (c50445)

  75. I am outraged at the rapist. However, in practical terms, how do you and I prevent rape from taking place?

    Dana (1225fc) — 9/27/2022 @ 8:08 pm

    Death penalty for child rapists is a good start.

    NJRob (6b3918)

  76. Plan B at every emergency room, clinic, doctor’s office, police station, and firehouse, free, no age requirement, no questions asked.

    nk (c50445)

  77. Maybe the hardline position on abortion taken by some of these laws is because some (maybe many) pregnant women will claim to have been raped in order to get an abortion after the time limit of X weeks.

    DRJ (727354)

  78. Roe v Wade stopped the laws on abortion from evolving. It is going to take time to let the nre laws evolve in ways that address some of these problems. There will be injustices but hopefully they will prompt lawmakers to fashion solutions. But Roe was the law for 50 years and there were injustices then, too.

    DRJ (727354)

  79. Sweet ladies lie?

    But prominent persons like J.D. Vance the Ohio Senate candidate and our friend felipe don’t say that. They express the position that the child is innocent and two wrongs don’t make a right.

    It’s a mess; there is no “please God, make it never-happen”; and that’s why, in the end, it should be the victim’s decision.

    nk (c50445)

  80. Which victim? The person raped or the baby that resulted from the rape?

    DRJ (727354)

  81. I take the view that the woman is the victim and that the baby is the instrumentality of a nine-month long rape. If the woman disagrees with me, I am happy for her. But it’s her decision.

    nk (c50445)

  82. The baby isn’t an inanimate thing. It is just as much a human victim as its human victim mother.

    DRJ (3800a4)

  83. The struggle is to find solutions when the mother puts her life first.

    DRJ (3800a4)

  84. Such tragedy being played out. Kill all child rapists – protect all babies.

    EPWJ (650a62)

  85. One solution is to provide free, easily available Plan B as you suggested.

    Another is to create a process for rape victims to anonymously petition courts for exceptions, with penalties for perjury attaching to limit false rape claims. (It won’t eliminate them but it may discourage them.)

    Another is to expand adoption programs and support, as well as homes for women who want to continue with their pregnancies. Typically these have been provided by charities and churches. The States could take a larger role (personally, I hope they don’t for several reasons) or help fund the groups that help (my preference).

    There are other options. The different States can try different things. See what works and what doesn’t.

    DRJ (3800a4)

  86. The solutions that prescribe “one rule” for all abortions are as unjust as the “exterminate them” solutions for child rapists.

    Child rapists are at fault but there can be extenuating circumstances in some cases, and there are pedophiles who do not respond to any deterent so even the “exterminate them” policy means they will have at least one victim.

    Our goal should be to develop laws that will try to balance justice for all parties, especially since most abortions do not involve fathers who raped the mother.

    DRJ (3800a4)

  87. To be clear, the extenuating circumstances I mentioned are rare cases, but there are cases where the younger partner looks older than their actual age and uses a fake ID.

    The statury rape laws are tough in most jurisdictions, and serving time after conviction is not pleasant for most perpetrators. I doubt we need new, harsher laws.

    DRJ (3800a4)

  88. @12

    whembly @ 11,

    Except that when you say “everyone…will adjust accordingly,” you ignore that there are minor victims of rape who are pregnant. Clearly, rapists are not going to “adjust accordingly,” so it’s a bit preposterous to simplify such a complex situation. How do rape victims “adjust accordingly”? Suck it up, buttercup, and just have your baby! Too bad, so sad, now carry that rape baby to term! Like that?

    You are placing the entire burden of “adjusting accordingly” on minor rape victims.

    It is possible to be both pro-life and to recognize that sometimes there is a gray area in life that is brutal, painful, complicated, has no winners, and one where heartbreaking decisions must sometimes be made. To think that there isn’t cruelty like this is to live in a black-and-white world of naivete and self-righteousness.

    Dana (1225fc) — 9/27/2022 @ 2:50 pm

    I recognize the “adjust accordingly” is a bit cold, but in this day and age, if a rape victim is able to get an abortion, whether going out of state or seeking help to do that by going to the authorities BEFORE the deadline, they’ll be able to. That’s what I meant by “adjust accordingly” as in, new rules… new behaviors.

    A line has to be drawn somewhere. But that doesn’t mean adjustments can’t be done and legislatures can make changes to address these concerns you’ve expressed.

    whembly (b770f8)

  89. Statutory

    DRJ (3800a4)

  90. DRJ, DANA, NK, FELIPE

    Great discussion, wish every thread had this quality – thanks

    EPWJ (650a62)

  91. @85

    One solution is to provide free, easily available Plan B as you suggested.

    Another is to create a process for rape victims to anonymously petition courts for exceptions, with penalties for perjury attaching to limit false rape claims. (It won’t eliminate them but it may discourage them.)

    Another is to expand adoption programs and support, as well as homes for women who want to continue with their pregnancies. Typically these have been provided by charities and churches. The States could take a larger role (personally, I hope they don’t for several reasons) or help fund the groups that help (my preference).

    There are other options. The different States can try different things. See what works and what doesn’t.

    DRJ (3800a4) — 9/28/2022 @ 6:56 am

    I’d advocate for all of that.

    whembly (b770f8)

  92. Why? …… Should I say otherwise?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/27/2022 @ 11:07 pm

    Opposing abortion is a perfectly legitimate position (and was the position of the Republican Party for decades). Your personal attacks on individual posters do not further your argument but simply show that you are intolerant of others.

    Rip Murdock (5192cb)

  93. > No, what you said is not what I said. I do definitely sympathize with her for the reason you stated. It may be that my manner of speaking was subtle to the point of being misunderstood – I will be blunt:

    > “Those who are ‘inconvenienced’…” Does not refer to the victim, the victim’s family, or friends – whatever their human reaction might be. It refers to supporters, funders, and providers of abortion. The abortion ecosystem if you will.

    Thank you for clarifying. The way you originally worded it did not make it clear that the *woman herself* was not one of the people you were expressing a lack of sympathy for, and I perceived no other reading.

    I apologize for my inference.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  94. > How about the women and girls who see it as nine-month prolongation, with a painful and dangerous termination, of the rape?

    Or, for that matter, a *lifetime* prolongation because they have a child who is a constant and unending reminder of the rape?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  95. > Plan B at every emergency room, clinic, doctor’s office, police station, and firehouse, free, no age requirement, no questions asked.

    You saw the bit about how the university of idaho has stopped offering contraceptives to their students because they’re afraid of running afoul of a new law?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  96. OTC contraceptives would be a big help. Perhaps teh Democrats can be convinced to stop blocking them and work with Republicans to make it so.

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  97. 69. Rip Murdock (5192cb) — 9/27/2022 @ 9:45 pm

    The state’s Department of Revenue announced (in August) that “any unborn child with a detectable human heartbeat” can be claimed as dependent, providing a $3,000 tax exemption for each pregnancy within a household, months before the child is born.

    Is this calculated retroactively after a live birth?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  98. 69. Rip Murdock (5192cb) — 9/27/2022 @ 9:45 pm

    The state’s Department of Revenue announced (in August) that “any unborn child with a detectable human heartbeat” can be claimed as dependent, providing a $3,000 tax exemption for each pregnancy within a household, months before the child is born.

    Is this calculated retroactively after a live birth?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/28/2022 @ 11:31 am

    It’s effective for unborn children after July 20, 2022. So, it is not retroactive.

    As such, on individual income tax returns filed for Tax Year 2022 where, at any time on or after July 20, 2022, and through December 31, 2022, a taxpayer has an unborn child (or children) with a detectable human heartbeat (which may occur as early as six weeks’ gestation), the taxpayer may claim a dependent personal exemption as provided for under O.C.G.A § 48-7-26(a) and (b)(3) in the amount of $3,000.00 for each unborn child. For Tax Year 2022, the deduction for dependent unborn children will be a subtraction on Line 12, “Other Adjustments,” of Form 500 Schedule 1.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  99. Pro choice in some form is 83% of the population.

    There’s a lot of detail that most polls leave out. For one thing “abortion” means “on-demand abortion” in most cases. For another, the development of the fetus matters.

    Over the years, 2/3rds accept abortion (on-demand) in the first trimester (13 weeks) as being legal. BUt 2/3rds also think it should be banned in the second trimester and over 80% feel similarly about the third trimester.

    The table below is probably going to be a mess.


    Thinking more generally, do you think abortion should generally be legal or generally illegal during each of the following stages of pregnancy. How about -- [RANDOM ORDER]?

    In the first three months of pregnancy
    (Date/Yes/No/Maybe)
    2022 May 2-22 67 27 5 2
    2018 May 1-10 60 34 4 1
    2012 Dec 27-30 61 31 6 3
    2011 Jun 9-12 62 35 2 1
    2003 Jan 10-12 66 29 3 2
    2000 Mar 30-Apr 2 65 31 2 2
    1996 Jul 25-26 64 30 4 2

    In the second three months of pregnancy
    (Date/Yes/No/Maybe)
    2022 May 2-22 36 55 7 2
    2018 May 1-10 28 65 4 2
    2012 Dec 27-30 27 64 5 4
    2011 Jun 9-12 24 71 3 2
    2003 Jan 10-12 25 68 4 3
    2000 Mar 30-Apr 2 24 69 4 3
    1996 Jul 25-26 26 65 7 2

    In the last three months of pregnancy
    (Date/Yes/No/Maybe)
    2022 May 2-22 20 71 8 1
    2018 May 1-10 13 81 4 2
    2012 Dec 27-30 14 80 4 2
    2011 Jun 9-12 10 86 2 1
    2003 Jan 10-12 10 84 4 2
    2000 Mar 30-Apr 2 8 86 3 3
    1996 Jul 25-26 13 82 3 2
    (vol.)=volunteered response

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  100. * ((Date/Yes/No/Maybe/Duh)

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  101. @98: Do they have to give it back if they have an abortion? Does it have to have a heartbeat (born or unborn) on December 31st?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  102. Opposing abortion is a perfectly legitimate position (and was the position of the Republican Party for decades). Your personal attacks on individual posters do not further your argument but simply show that you are intolerant of others.

    Are you arguing that all opinions deserve toleration? If so, I have mine. Tolerate it.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  103. The arguments here by the right to lifers demonstrate that compromise with those who say that your killing a baby after conception is a wimp liberal democrat excuse for not doing what is necessary. The answer is it is a woman/girls choice not an anti choicer who decides. Democrats who run on enforcing choice with the full power of the state if necessary are the only democrats to vote for. AOC and the squad will do the right thing squishes like biden and the establishment democrats will try to do as little as they can get away with.

    asset (b617f0)

  104. An how am I attacking you? By saying that certain opinions tell me a lot about the person holding them? I think that is true for all of us.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  105. @103: And you arguments, asset, are equally resistant to compromise. From what you say, so long as the baby has not yet completely emerged from the womb, it is just so much tissue. This is just as unforgivable a position as opposition to contraception.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  106. Crabgrass.

    House on fire;

    POTUS is talking to dead people:

    Biden asks if deceased congresswoman is present at White House food insecurity conference

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/28/politics/biden-jackie-walorski-hunger-conference/index.html

    When you lose CNN…

    DCSCA (699eb9)

  107. Asset said at 2:006 that a fetus is not a human being, it’s just an unwanted growth. I guess that means that the fetus is sort of like a cancer–a malignant tumor that should be excised. There may be something to that–that fetus could, if carried to term, grow up and be a mean widdle kid. Can’t have one of those around now, can we.

    Comanche Voter (a15ae2)

  108. Up until the age of two
    Cletus grew and grew and grew
    Laying waste to all he saw
    Stabbed his ma and shot his pa
    Then that little SOB
    Hung the cat from an apple tree

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  109. …and that’s the rest of the story. Good day.

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  110. @108 Ha! Good one, Colonel.

    norcal (da5491)

  111. Thanks

    Smoked albacore from the Crab Cooker in Newport Beach is so good!

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  112. @111 I think I’ve heard of the Crab Cooker. Need to hit it some time. I always enjoy trips to Socal. Not that I’d want to live there.

    norcal (da5491)

  113. OT- Six people were shot at a California school, official says

    Six people were injured in a shooting at an Oakland school Wednesday, authorities said. he victims, all of whom were adults, were being treated at local hospitals, Mayor Libby Schaaf said on Twitter. Two were in critical but stable condition, and a third person was listed as stable at a local trauma hospital, said Alameda Health System CEO James Jackson.- NBCNews.com

    DCSCA (1acf72)

  114. Smoked albacore from the Crab Cooker in Newport Beach is so good!

    That was true in the 60s and 70s when I lived there, but when I went back later it was just another tourist trap.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  115. Nope… I must disagree. I lived in OC from 1956 to 1985 and the fish is delicious, with a much expanded menu. There is some of that tourist focus, but it’s NB, so no surprise there.

    Must have the combination rock cod/shrimp/scallops on the skewer every time we are down here.

    Colonel Haiku (0416b6)

  116. There may be something to that–that fetus could, if carried to term, grow up and be a mean widdle kid. Can’t have one of those around now, can we.

    Genetics do matter.

    But here’s something you all might not know, but aphrael reminded me. If the child is born alive, the rapist can establish paternity, block adoption, and get visitation with the child. Even while he is in prison!

    How you like them apples?

    nk (eef319)

  117. nk

    uhhh no, in at least 45 states rapists and their relatives have no rights –

    EPWJ (650a62)

  118. I wouldn’t like that, nk, but the answer is not to kill babies. The answer is laws to prevent that.

    DRJ (d2c6b6)

  119. From the link:

    Currently, 15 states—Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, South Dakota, Texas, and Vermont, and Washington—terminate parental rights of a rapist based on the civil standard of clear and convincing evidence. These states are supported by the federal Rape Survivor Child Custody Act (RSCCA), which authorizes the U.S. attorney general to make grants to states that pass legislation terminating the parental rights of men who father children through rape. States must use the “clear and convincing evidence” standard, which is the predominant standard in the U.S. for termination of parental rights, to determine whether the father committed rape. The “clear and convincing” legal standard means that the evidence being presented must be “highly” and substantially more probable to be true rather than untrue. Currently, however, only 32 states allow the termination of parental rights of rapists who conceive a child, while others have varying restrictions in place, and many still require criminal conviction. 

    DRJ (d2c6b6)

  120. EPWJ (650a62) — 9/29/2022 @ 7:55 am

    in at least 45 states rapists and their relatives have no rights –

    Probably convicted rapists, except that if the mother is under the age of consent, it’s automatically rape. Probably a judge is allowed to guess, though..

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  121. 98. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/28/2022 @ 11:44 am

    It’s effective for unborn children after July 20, 2022. So, it is not retroactive.

    I mean do they wait to see if the baby is born, and only then, retroactively allow the deduction.

    I other words if a woman becomes pregnant now and files a tax return in March do they get to claim the deduction??

    What if the baby is a stillbirth?

    What if, for that matter, the woman is confirmed 6 weeks pregnant and then has an abortion?

    Can she still get a $3,000 refund(and use the money to pay for a trip out of state and the abortion?)

    I don’t think the Georgia state legislature had that in mind. But did they take precautions against that?

    As such, on individual income tax returns filed for Tax Year 2022 where, at any time on or after July 20, 2022, and through December 31, 2022, a taxpayer has an unborn child (or children) with a detectable human heartbeat (which may occur as early as six weeks’ gestation), the taxpayer may claim a dependent personal exemption as provided for under O.C.G.A § 48-7-26(a) and (b)(3) in the amount of $3,000.00 for each unborn child. For Tax Year 2022, the deduction for dependent unborn children will be a subtraction on Line 12, “Other Adjustments,” of Form 500 Schedule 1.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  122. RE: Jackie Walorski

    Biden also made a condolence call to the family during which he talked, like he usually does in such situations, about his own loss of hos wife his infant daughter and Beauand he was/is also scheduled to meet with the family on Friday.

    So he was indeed, thinking about her a lot, but when someone sees Yoko Ono they don’t expect to see John Lennon there also.

    https://nypost.com/2022/09/28/late-gop-rep-jackie-walorskis-bro-biden-doing-best-he-can

    “Jackie — are you here? Where’s Jackie?” said Biden, despite the fact that he publicly mourned her death eight weeks earlier.

    The late congresswoman’s brother said he believes the 79-year-old president may simply be forgetful due to his age.

    “That’s probably a nice way of putting it: He’s forgetful,” he said. “I don’t think anybody would look at the things that he’s done and said and say that his mind is as sharp as it used to be.”

    He is also quoted in the newspaper as saying:

    “It’s par for the course,” Walorski told The Post of Biden’s bizarre gaffe. “I feel sorry for him, really.”

    “He made a phone call after my sister was killed and he was very sincere in his relaying the grief process because he’s been through that grief process, he knows all about it,” Keith Walorski added.

    “All I’m saying right now about the president is bless his heart for trying. Yeah, it was a big mess-up today. Inexcusable? No. Unforgivable? No. I’m not gonna hold it against him. I just feel sorry for him.”

    Also:

    Keith Walorski added, “I don’t know what else to say. He is doing the best he can do with what he’s got right now.”

    https://nypost.com/2022/09/28/biden-called-out-dead-lawmaker-because-she-was-top-of-mind-white-house

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  123. Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/29/2022 @ 3:03 pm

    I provided a link to the Georgia Department of Revenue’s guidance, which should answer your questions.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  124. Ah: Judge Cannon ruled today that Trump no longer has to submit a sworn statement about the accuracy of the FBI’s inventory on items removed from Mar-a-Lago as directed by the special master that Trump requested.

    Is this when we’re supposed to mention that Judge Cannon was appointed by Trump?

    Dana (1225fc)

  125. DRJ at 118 & 119, thank you!

    nk (6612aa)


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