Trump ‘Election Denialism’ Model Continues: Republican Candidates Refuse To Say If They Would Accept Their Election Results
[guest post by Dana]
Why else would any Republican candidate refuse to respond in the affirmative other than they understand that the unspoken rule is that one must follow Trump’s lead if they want to stay in his good graces, and those of his base? It all trickles down:
A dozen Republican candidates in competitive races for governor and Senate have declined to say whether they would accept the results of their contests, raising the prospect of fresh post-election chaos two years after Donald Trump refused to concede the presidency.
In a survey by The Washington Post of 19 of the most closely watched statewide races in the country, the contrast between Republican and Democratic candidates was stark. While seven GOP nominees committed to accepting the outcomes in their contests, 12 either refused to commit or declined to respond. On the Democratic side, 17 said they would accept the outcome and two did not respond to The Post’s survey.
[Ed. If you’re keeping score, the report also mentions gubernatorial nominee Stacey Abrams, who claimed that voter suppression occurred in 2018, and thus she refused to concede defeat to Brian Kemp: “But unlike Trump, Abrams never sought to overturn the certified result or foment an insurrection.” More about her post-election comments at the link.]
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (1225fc) — 9/20/2022 @ 10:06 am@MattWolking
“Just a reminder:
In January 2017, after Trump’s win, House Democrats objected to certifying the election results in 9 states.
Alabama
Florida
Georgia
Michigan
Mississippi
North Carolina
South Carolina
Wisconsin
Wyoming
About 70 House Democrats boycotted Trump’s inauguration.”
Also… https://www.cnn.com/2017/01/19/politics/trump-inauguration-protests-womens-march/index.html
Colonel Haiku (76a1de) — 9/20/2022 @ 10:26 amDana,
Why do you support this obvious Concern Moby wedge?
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 10:52 amCandidates that refuse to answer this question do so because their answer would be “fukc Trump!” and that will lose them the election. The Democrats (and apparently some others) want them to choose sides.
Failing to choose sides is somehow hyper-partisan.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 10:54 amWhooops. I misread. Still, it is part of a package of demands.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 10:56 amAnd no Senate Democrats joined them, and the objections were gaveled down by VP Biden. And VP Gore did the same in 2001.
Is attending the inauguration mandatory?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 10:59 amBTW, I will not accept the results of the 2022 NM districted elections, as the gerrymander was blatant (and the majority leader made that clear) and does not reflect the people’s will. The vote count may be accurate but dimply counting votes correctly does not make an election fair or free.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:00 am*simply, although some may have dimples.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:01 amHa. The fact that just answering the question would cost Republicans in competitive states to lose their contests is the point. It speaks to Trump’s co-opting of the GOP. This is not healthy for the country, nor is it healthy for a robust and principled Republican Party. Going into an election with the belief that if one loses, it can only be due to malfunctioning machines, a rigged election, or corruption of poll workers – anything but loss due to the voters preferring an opposing candidate – is just madness. All of which continue to destroy the GOP.
Dana (1225fc) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:05 amKevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:00 am
What is the people’s will when it comes to gerrymandering?
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:06 amFrom a post on the Weekend Open Thread:
Emphasis in the original.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:17 amAnd Trump boycotted Biden’s inauguration. Whatever.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:23 amWhateverism!
All depends on whose ox is gored… got it!
Colonel Haiku (76a1de) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:31 amIf those people, running for office, have doubts about the legitimacy of our elections, that they won’t trust the results, then they should not be running for office. They should be at the Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow training in revolution. Or they may have already been, and this is their mission, to delegitimize our elections, the dirty neo-Soviets.
nk (11045d) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:37 amHa. The fact that just answering the question would cost Republicans in competitive states to lose their contests is the point. It speaks to Trump’s co-opting of the GOP. This is not healthy for the country, nor is it healthy for a robust and principled Republican Party.
Losing all your elections is also unhealthy. I have no argument that Trump is a pernicious troll, but he controls a quarter of the party. He is no different than Jerry Falwell was 20 years ago, bending the GOP towards Bible-thumping and away from core beliefs.
But if you had demanded that candidates circa 2000 denounced the Bible as a source of law, you would have been creating the same wedge.
Trump will be gone soon enough. The laws that a Democrat super-majority will pass will not be gone in your lifetime.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:41 amIf those people, running for office, have doubts about the legitimacy of our elections, that they won’t trust the results, then they should not be running for office.
Good thing we didn’t tell black folk in the 60’s things like that.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:42 am60 Percent Of Americans Will Have An Election Denier On The Ballot This Fall
Once is happenstance.
Twice is coincidence
Three times is spam.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:43 amWhat is the people’s will when it comes to gerrymandering?
Hard to say when the legislature elects itself.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:45 amBTW, the state passed a law establishing an independent redistricting commission, and then some judge said the legislature could ignore them. And it did.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:54 amNot to worry; just tie up Lindsey in a closet w/an apple in his mouth [ he’d love it, too]– and let Squinty do all the talking about… commiting to going to war with China over Taiwan, health issues- the pandemic is over you know because nobody is wearing a mask now, [Jeez] … economics: inflation is ‘zero’… his love of gas guzzling corvettes while pushing electric cars on everybody; open borders, wandering cries of ‘where am I, where do we go now’… the political land mines he keeps stepping on never stops– he could guest star on 50 Combat! episodes. He’s the gift that keeps on giving to his opposition. This is a GOP cycle to lose– and if they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and lose to America’s farting, pants pooping, wandering, stumbling, brain-damaged loser– they deserve it. But America doesn’t.
DCSCA (23025c) — 9/20/2022 @ 11:56 amNo Senators joined the objections in 2017. Oh, okay. So it’s all good. What about 2005?
mikeybates (a4d6ae) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:00 pmUSA Today/Ipsos poll, 8/28/22:
Looks like he controls more than a quarter of the Republican Party.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:04 pmOne Senator (Boxer) joined in the objection to the electoral votes of one State (Ohio). Certainly not on the scale of last meeting of the Electoral College.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:07 pmDana: “It speaks to Trump’s co-opting of the GOP. This is not healthy for the country, nor is it healthy for a robust and principled Republican Party”
No one that continues to dabble with election denialism will get my vote. Kevin can try and scare me about Democrat super-majorities….but this nonsense will not change unless people come to their senses and realize that this is no way to run a major party…..or winnable races continue to be lost. This, “it’s got to be Trump” mentality has to be rejected.
I will not vote for a guy that wants to pull us out of NATO….that wants to pull us out of S. Korea…..that wants to pull us out of Africa……and has a weird obsession with using nukes against Iran….and giving Putin what he wants. Couple in his manic narcissism and that fact that he has blown through the A-quality and B-quality cabinet teams, who could possibly trust that he won’t abuse his power if given the chance again? The guy is a wrecking ball….and doesn’t offer much to replace what he wrecks…other than a bizarre cult of personality. This binary cr*p doesn’t work with this guy. He should be exiled from the GOP because of his inaction as the Capitol was stormed. It’s embarrassing that people keep making excuses for him…..
AJ_Liberty (5f05c3) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:07 pmI all am favor of gerrymandering-it’s as American as apple pie, and both parties do it. I have never liked legislatures punting redistricting to an “independent” commission. It’s just a way for a legislature to avoid responsibility. Redistricting is a political act-let the politicians do it and own it.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:11 pm“It speaks to Trump’s co-opting of the GOP. This is not healthy for the country, nor is it healthy for a robust and principled Republican Party…”
Echoes of 1964: “It speaks to Goldwater’s co-opting of the GOP. This is not healthy for the country, nor is it healthy for a robust and principled Republican Party…”
It’s healthy and long, long overdue; the tail no longer wags the dog.
DCSCA (23025c) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:17 pmI guess I’m confused, then. Are commenters here saying that someone who objected to certification in 2021 must be shunned and opposed, even if it means voting for a Democrat, etc., but that the same should not happen to someone who objected in 2017 or 2005?
‘It’s only wrong when Republicans do it’ seems to be the theme. The 1/6 committee itself is made up of several members who objected to certification in 2017 (Raskin) and 2005 (Thompson).
mikeybates (a4d6ae) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:19 pmDana,
Please show me who has been charged with insurrection for you to keep using such a word loaded with meaning.
NJRob (8da5ef) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:33 pmthe pandemic is over, according to biden, and so is the need for pandemic crisis voting rules
but the lax rules will remain, and so will doubts about election results
JF (f62728) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:48 pmR.I.P. baseball great Maury Wills
Icy (a9a69b) — 9/20/2022 @ 12:57 pmThis seems like good changes that will make it harder for someone to attempt to steal the presidency in the future.
Of course, Trump could motivate another group of supporters to assault the police and violently seize the capital in order to prevent the peaceful transfer of power. But I expect there will be better security in the future.
Time123 (4f4aa8) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:07 pmLooks like he controls more than a quarter of the Republican Party.
Your numbers include many who don’t view “supports Trump” as their litmus test for voting.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:11 pmNo one that continues to dabble with election denialism will get my vote.
AJ, you distort my comments. I said that there is a difference between supporting Trump’s delusions and not wanting to make them an issue in your local race.
Democrats and confused conservatives would put those front and center, but their reasons are different. Democrats do it because it’s a handy club. Conservatives do it because they mistake a moral point for a political one.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:15 pmR.I.P. baseball great Maury Wills
Sad. I saw him play. He was likely to steal third as second. Three world series wins. 104 stolen bases in 1962 to set the MLB record.
This was back in the day when the Dodgers scored runs with a walk, two stolen bases and a sac fly.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:23 pmI guess I’m confused, then. Are commenters here saying that someone who objected to certification in 2021
Then you’re confused. Because they are saying that someone who simply doesn’t want to nationalize the campaign around Democrat talking points is an insurrectionist.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:25 pmLeader of Oath Keepers and 10 Other Individuals Indicted in Federal Court for Seditious Conspiracy and Other Offenses Related to U.S. Capitol Breach
18 U.S. Code § 2384 – Seditious conspiracy:
My emphasis.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:32 pmNice one Rip
Time123 (3ac60a) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:36 pmThanks. It’s as plain as day if you want to see it.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:39 pm> Candidates that refuse to answer this question do so because their answer would be “fukc Trump!”
You’re quite skilled at mind reading, apparently, to know that this is their answer, and that “i’ll refuse to certify but don’t want to say it because that would cause me to lose” isn’t.
I don’t have that skill, meaning I don’t know which way the candidates will behave if they’re given the opportunity to show their true colors — and the downside risk here is just terrible.
aphrael (d9db76) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:55 pm36. “Seditious conspiracy” is not the same thing as “insurrection.”
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:57 pmShouldn’t people be wondering how the rule against stolen bases is not enforced??
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/20/2022 @ 1:59 pmIt continues to be miscommunicated, and probably purposely. The objections from regular R people is not about simple fraud and counting, it is about manipulation of the process. Rules don’t get followed and that causes consternation about elections.
Richard Wetmore (aad2e4) — 9/20/2022 @ 2:11 pmInsurrection:
True, and the penalties for “rebellion or insurrection” are lower than for seditious conspiracy (10 v. 20 years). “Insurrection” is not defined in the statute, so the seditious conspiracy statute would probably be held up as constitutional but not the insurrection statute, since it is vague.
But people can call it whatever they want.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/20/2022 @ 2:19 pm5th circut rules texas law on preventing social media censorship is constitutional. As A victim of censorship my self I support free expression of opinion. Just because it is unpleasent doesn’t mean it is disinformation. Rather it should be pointed out when liars are lying is the way to get at the truth.
asset (9e15ad) — 9/20/2022 @ 2:28 pmIn other words, she’s a fly in the ointment of both side’s hyper-partisan narratives. Contrary to the bleating of Dems, she is Trump-like in her election denialism, in kind if not degree. And contrary to the false equivalents of Republicans, she doesn’t share Trump’s penchant for violently overthrowing the government. No principled Democrat should be supporting her, yet they are, and no principled Republican should be claiming she’s just as bad as Trump, yet they do.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 9/20/2022 @ 2:46 pmAnd contrary to the false equivalents of Republicans, she doesn’t share Trump’s penchant for violently overthrowing the government.
lurker (cd7cd4) — 9/20/2022 @ 2:46 pm
but she does share your penchant for misstating the facts
nearly two years later Trump has not been charged with anything
JF (e93630) — 9/20/2022 @ 4:23 pmIt is very important that all Republicans behave like Barbara Boxer and Stacey Abrams. E pluribus unum!
nk (f65337) — 9/20/2022 @ 4:51 pmBetelgeuse!
Colonel Haiku (76a1de) — 9/20/2022 @ 5:08 pmPlease, do tell, what facts did I misstate?
So? Are you saying there won’t be any more indictments? How do you know? Two years isn’t so long for a federal criminal investigation, much less for one this complex, much less for one that could end in the indictment of a former president.
Also, assuming arguendo that Trump is never charged, it’s your contention that means he committed no crimes for which he’s morally culpable? By that reasoning you’d have to also believe that Bill Clinton, who likewise was never charged, didn’t commit perjury. So which is it? Is failure to indict a factual and moral exoneration, or isn’t it?
lurker (cd7cd4) — 9/20/2022 @ 5:46 pmby force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States
Gee, that’s pretty wide-ranging. So, if the loggers come for the sequoias and I attempt to block their lawful tree-cutting through any physical means, it’s insurrection?
Give me a moment and I will come up with a more ridiculous example of this law’s breadth. Maybe involving a mattress tag.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 6:41 pmShouldn’t people be wondering how the rule against stolen bases is not enforced??
Worse, he stole them by physical force, so it’s insurrection!
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 6:42 pmTrump was charged twice while president. Another word for it is impeached.
Trump could not be charged for the other crimes he committed per OLC rules, which concluded that a sitting president could not charged for ordinary crimes and misdemeanors, at least not until after he’s run out of office.
Paul Montagu (753b42) — 9/20/2022 @ 6:42 pmCharles C.W. Cooke puts forth a persuasive case against demanding that candidates pass some kind of litmus test concerning Trump (He doesn’t state it outright, but I assume it includes gotcha questions concerning the 2020 election).
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2022/09/12/a-long-goodbye-to-trump/
Emphasis mine.
Don’t reject a candidate simply because he/she doesn’t repudiate Trump.
It seems to me that some commenters here want to stage “truth-and-reconciliation” events about Trump. That strikes me as fanciful.
Exactly. People are stubborn. The more you rub their noses in something, the more they will dig in. Pride is powerful.
They are more likely to quietly change their minds over time than to eat crow publicly. It’s human nature.
It’s emotionally satisfying to insist on purity, but that approach is counterproductive. Letting the perfect be the enemy of the good is a surefire way to end up with something less than good (either more Trump or entrenched leftism).
Writing off any candidate who won’t call out Trump on the 2020 election is a simplistic, feel-good approach, but political matters aren’t so clear-cut. They are messy and complex.
norcal (da5491) — 9/20/2022 @ 6:43 pmAll bank robbers are insurrectionists. All who enter the United States illegally and use any kind of force to prevent their apprehension are insurrectionists.
This law is so broad as to defy limits. Probably why it’s not used as some people would want.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 6:44 pmHip deep in sheep dip. We’re in a tight spot. Oh, what will we ever do!?!?
Colonel Haiku (76a1de) — 9/20/2022 @ 6:44 pmThe problem with all this is that it only affects Republicans. Democrats are only worried about their popcorn supply. Make them denounce packing the Supreme Court, subverting the Electoral College, 90% tax rates or the New Green Deal. But you don’t care about that as your concern is only with your own self-image.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 6:47 pmShorter: Trump will live blog his own execution if it will get him more attention.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/20/2022 @ 7:02 pmAll bank robbers are insurrectionists. All who enter the United States illegally and use any kind of force to prevent their apprehension are insurrectionists.
You better not wear too heavy an after-shave in a federal building elevator, either, Kevin.
The statute is not read to the jury. They don’t interpret it. The jury is given instructions by the judge. Which instructions reflect how the statute has been interpreted.
In the federal system, they’re pattern instructions, for the whole circuit, put together by a whole big committee. Every good lawyer, defending or prosecuting, will use them as the starting point of his legal research.
The trial judge has the option and the duty to do his own legal research. When he reads the indictment and, if a bench trial, when he renders judgment.
nk (bd6147) — 9/20/2022 @ 7:06 pm@Kevin@56 The thing is, you can find Democrats in good standing who will say they are against any of those things.
Nic (896fdf) — 9/20/2022 @ 7:13 pmhttps://www.rgj.com/story/news/politics/elections/2022/09/19/adam-laxalt-catherine-cortez-masto-joe-lombardo-steve-sisolak-debates-scrapped-lyngar-herman-set/10428961002/
I suspect it is precisely because of a potential question about the 2020 election that both the Republican candidate for U.S. Senate from Nevada and the Republican candidate for Governor of Nevada have declined to participate in debates.
Republicans can’t win if they offend the Trumpers. It’s pie in the sky to think so. Does it mean these candidates must be dismissed out of hand? No. See my lengthy comment above. This is precisely what Cooke was talking about.
norcal (da5491) — 9/20/2022 @ 7:52 pm@Kevin@56 The thing is, you can find Democrats in good standing who will say they are against any of those things.
And you can find Republicans in good standing who abhor Trump and all his works. But the party is what rules, not the individual members, and that matters. Right now, the choice is a party that favors all those things, and one that doesn’t that seems dominated by a total assh0le.
While I would prefer the GOP tossed Trump to the curb, at a basic level I prefer their policies over those of the Democrats. Trump or no Trump, they will tend to heed those positions. I probably cannot bring myself to vote for Trump, ever, but I can bring myself to vote for people who are reluctantly caught in his web. The alternative choice is a set of policy planks I think will destroy the country. Unlike Caesar, the evil that Trump does will be interred with his bones.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/22/2022 @ 8:08 amHere is the basic disconnect. The people who support Trump — and have supported him since 2015 — have one thing in common: THEY DON’T TRUST YOU.
Trumpism is a reaction to what they see as a train of abuses against the common man by the elites. It should come as no surprise that this lack of trust extends to close elections. Especially when they are led in that direction. Given that your counter argument is “Trust the system” it’s not hard to see why we are at this impasse. Over the last 20-30 years they’ve been given no reason to do that.
tl;dr THEY DON’T TRUST YOU
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/22/2022 @ 8:12 am#62
You make me think of GK Chesterton here —
“When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.”
Substitute “the system” for God, and you have the crazytown part of MAGA world.
Appalled (d3a026) — 9/22/2022 @ 8:48 amHere’s the funny part. They – MAGA supporters – think less of you than you do of them.
Colonel Haiku (9faf71) — 9/22/2022 @ 9:27 amAppalled,
Yes, but your argument to the agnostics is that “God said so!” Is it a great surprise that they don’t accept that?
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/22/2022 @ 9:30 amThroughout this exercise, the Trump supporters have been saying “You keep fukking us and we’re tired of it” and the response has not been “Oh. How can we change this?” but “You aren’t bending over far enough!”
Starting with “deplorables”, continuing through a very irregular election (for the first time ever, most ballots were cast off-site (and 20% more votes were cast)) all the way down to the narrowly-elected president calling Trump’s supporters “a clear and present danger.”
No one seems interested in working to fix this. Instead everyone is being sorted into tribes. This will not end well. The country will not survive a second civil war.
Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 9/22/2022 @ 9:44 amNo one seems interested in working to fix this.
Ahhhhh. but the ‘fix’ is in: “You bought him; you own him.”
“Which way do I go now?” – Squinty McStumblebum
DCSCA (473568) — 9/22/2022 @ 10:04 amMemo to Squinty;
Plagiarize this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_DrUaJEBtE
DCSCA (473568) — 9/22/2022 @ 10:06 amI have always voted “off site” and some states like Oregon are completely “off site.” There is nothing irregular not going to overcrowded, inefficiently run, polling places. Not sure where you got the 20% increase (the Census Bureau reported it was a 12.4% increase), but that is easily explained by increased voter registration and high interest in the 2020 election.
In 2016 61.4% of registered voters voted, in 2020 it was 66.8%, the highest since 1992.
See also here.
Nothing nefarious about this. If Trump runs and is the MAGA Party (I mean Republican Party) nominee, I expect another high turn out election. I doubt there will be another civil war.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/22/2022 @ 10:10 amKari Lake, by the way, has said that she would not have certified the Electoral vote.
I am not sure how the bill passed by the House would handle it.
The problem is you have to deal both with a governor who does not certify what he or she should and one who certifies what they shouldn’t.
Fortunately, Electoral vote chess is a complicated game whose outcome should depend upon what is the truth. Only about one third of a political party that is lying needs to side with the truth for the real truth to win.
I don’t think it should be made too uncomplicated
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/22/2022 @ 2:05 pmCongressional Record from 2005
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CREC-2005-01-06/html/CREC-2005-01-06-pt1-PgH84-6.htm
This made so little impression on me, (in news coverage) I didn’t know it happened.
Excerpt:
This was the argument: (no argument was made that they had hopes of overturning the election, only that people had a hard time voting – standing in line etc)
Sammy Finkelman (1d215a) — 9/22/2022 @ 2:43 pm