Patterico's Pontifications

8/24/2022

President Biden And Student Loan Debt

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:08 am



[guest post by Dana]

Under intense pressure from Democrats, President Biden’s actions are not surprising:

President Joe Biden on Wednesday announced new steps to address student loan debt, which includes forgiving $10,000 for borrowers who make less than $125,000 per year and extending the payment freeze one final time until the end of the year.

Low-income borrowers who went to college on Pell Grants will receive up to $20,000 in student loan forgiveness.

The progressive wing of the Democratic Party were pushing the President to cancel $50,000 in student debt per borrower. But as a new study shows, even the designated $10,000 will result in negative consequences:

President Biden’s election-year plan to cancel student loan debt would cost the Treasury at least $329 billion and would mostly benefit wealthier taxpayers, according to a study released Tuesday.

The Penn-Wharton Budget Model found that forgiving $10,000 of student debt per borrower for families with incomes of up to $125,000 annually, a plan Mr. Biden could authorize as soon as this week, would cost the federal government $329.7 billion in lost revenues over 10 years.

The study showed that a majority of the relief would go to borrowers in the top 60% of earners.

Further complicating the president’s decision:

Deficit hawks say the president’s action would wipe out much of the expected deficit reduction from Democrats dubbed the “Inflation Reduction Act” that Mr. Biden signed into law last week. The $740 billion climate-and-tax measure, which is a scaled-down version of the president’s original “Build Back Better” agenda, includes provisions that its authors say will reduce budget deficits by $275 billion over 10 years.

“Simply extending the current repayment pause through the end of the year would cost $20 billion — equivalent to the total deficit reduction from the first six years of the IRA, by our rough estimates,” said the nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. “Cancelling $10,000 per person of student debt for households making below $300,000 a year would cost roughly $230 billion. Combined, these policies would consume nearly ten years of deficit reduction from the Inflation Reduction Act.”

I’m with Cooke here:

Biden’s illegal move is grotesque classism. In his eyes, those who’ll end up paying are the tradesmen, the riff-raff, the great unwashed, the background noise, the dirty-handed types, whose role is to aid the self-dealing clerisy his party calls its base.

As a reminder:

“People think that the President of the United States has the power for debt forgiveness. He does not… that has to be an act of Congress,” said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

President Biden himself expressed skepticism about his own legal authority to forgive student loans.

And an Obama-era Department of Education lawyer believes that President Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan would face massive legal challenges.

In Case You Missed It via the Wall Street Journal, even a top Obama Education Department lawyer agrees that President Biden’s mass student loan forgiveness scheme is “legally risky.”

[…]

Using executive action to cancel debts for student borrowers without tying relief to their individual needs and using regulatory procedures would put the Biden administration at risk of having its plan overruled in court, according to a legal analysis prepared by Charlie Rose, who served as the top lawyer in the Education Department under President Obama from 2009 to 2011.

“If the issue is litigated, the more persuasive analyses tend to support the conclusion that the Executive Branch likely does not have the unilateral authority to engage in mass student debt cancellation,” Mr. Rose wrote in a memo for his law firm, Hogan Marren Babbo & Rose, Ltd. He suggested that loan-servicing companies and investors that own securities backed by student loans might be in a position to sue the administration over broad-based debt cancellation.

Anyway, the Democrats can look forward to their ranks swelling as young voters give a thumbs-up to this enticement bribe. The impact of the President’s actions on any other voting bloc, even especially the taxpayers footing the bill, really doesn’t matter to the administration:

–Dana

123 Responses to “President Biden And Student Loan Debt”

  1. I would like to know how much encouragement is given to kids these days to attend a two-year community college for their gen ed and then transfer to university?

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. Vote for a socialist, get socialist results. Economic collapse here we come.

    NJRob (b8b72c)

  3. I would like to know how much encouragement is given to kids these days to attend a two-year community college for their gen ed and then transfer to university?

    Dana (1225fc) — 8/24/2022 @ 11:10 am

    That’s what I did some 40-odd years ago.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  4. This is what happens with Democrats in power.

    Remember this in the next election.

    whembly (b770f8)

  5. Will young voters who did not go to college, or did not get loans to go to college — or paid off the loans they took — give this a thumbs-up?

    And what happens when the courts enjoin it (as they will) or strike it down? Is that the play? Mean old Trumpie judges?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  6. I would like to know how much encouragement is given to kids these days to attend a two-year community college for their gen ed and then transfer to university?

    I have a niece who is doing that. Her mother (my sister) is a not-stupid graduate of the school of hard knocks and isn’t likely to co-sign any loans.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  7. Also: Article I, Section 9:

    No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law

    It’s not just Trump who can’t read the Constitution. Even Biden is on record agreeing with this.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  8. @4 Speaking of remembering the next election. Last night in NY-19 voters had a choice to send a message. The republican ran on the economy and didn’t want to say how he would vote on choice in this swing district that went for trump in 2016. Democrat ran exclusively on pro choice. Voters chose democrat.

    asset (d0eb7b)

  9. They’ll let it poll first – if it is bad as it sounds it will be, then Kev M #5 is…arranged.

    urbanleftbehind (d78731)

  10. They point to a 60yo law that allows the president to adjust student debts. But unless that law addresses appropriation of the money to pay for such an adjustment, it is not likely to make the unconstitutional constitutional.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  11. Democrat ran exclusively on pro choice. Voters chose democrat.

    The last person elected in the 19th, a Democrat, won by a larger margin (54% of the vote, instead of 51%).

    In other news, choco rations going up from 25% to 20%!

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  12. This is what happens with Democrats in power.
    Remember this in the next election.
    whembly (b770f8) — 8/24/2022 @ 11:33 am

    those that voted for biden knew this before the last election

    they will still know it when they vote for biden in the next election

    who knows, some might actually comment in this thread and lecture us again about the rule of law and article 2 powers

    JF (87a5e2)

  13. @11 democrats do worse in non presidental election years unless they are angry like 2018 and now. 80% of voters want some form of abortion protection rights. Anti-abortion activists are now pushing personhood for fetus so women can be charged with murder.

    asset (d0eb7b)

  14. @7. ROFLOMAOPIP Who “draws money from the Treasury” anymore?

    Charge it!

    Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (24b2ce)

  15. For a rare 15-minute exposure to ‘We The People,’ ‘President’ Susan Rice – the real force behind this- is addressing the Press in the WH Press Briefing Room about this scam. ‘My message to the people’- she says… Freud would have a field day.

    Remember voting for her?

    DCSCA (24b2ce)

  16. #4

    Sure is. I’ll match you video from January 6 on what the current Republican Party will do if they get into power and then look like they might lose it.

    If you lose Trump, we can have a different discussion.

    By the way, this policy is classist stupidity. Let’s shift money from working class folks to the clerical class. If you are concerned with actual equity, go forward subsidies make more sense. But then AOC might be upset.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  17. OT- Jill Biden tests positive for COVID rebound case

    First lady Jill Biden tested positive for COVID-19 on Wednesday in a “rebound” case, her office said.

    The first lady — who first tested positive on Aug. 16 — received her second negative test on Sunday and joined the president in Delaware, coming out of her isolation period spent in South Carolina. She again tested negative on Tuesday, her deputy communications director Kelsey Donohue said. – ABCNews.com

    DCSCA (24b2ce)

  18. @17. Pffft.

    ‘Are you better off now than you were two years ago?’

    Nope.

    Trump/Haley 2024

    DCSCA (24b2ce)

  19. You should listen to her firing off policy bullet points like rounds from a AR-15.

    Susan Rice is running the country.

    DCSCA (24b2ce)

  20. The long-term solution has to be getting rid of the student loan program, as it is now. There is a solution mentioned in Heinlein’s short story, “Delilah and the Space Rigger”. The boss of the team building the space station, “Tiny” Larsen, had worked his way through Oppenheimer (a university comparable to MIT) playing semi-pro football, and working in construction. Oppenheimer had kept tuition and fees low enough so that was possible.

    And, believe it or not, Mitch Daniels has shown that a large state university, Purdue, can do something similar, today.

    Asked to choose between the government forgiving student debt or making college more affordable for current and future students, an astounding 82% of respondents in a recent NPR/Ipsos poll opt for the latter. Even among those with outstanding loans, long-term affordability wins out.

    Getting there is not easy. But at Purdue University, an ambitious price freeze with tuition at just under $10,000 a year has held for a decade, offering innovative – if not always flawless or popular – cost-cutting models for holding the line on student bills.

    (Links omitted.)

    And they have held the line on other costs, so that a student can, with, perhaps, some help from their parents, work their way through Purdue.

    (The other innovation needed, even sooner, is to make colleges and universities responsible, at least in part, for the loans they hand out.)

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  21. If you lose Trump, we can have a different discussion.

    Seems you missed the bus. Welcome to 1964.

    DCSCA (24b2ce)

  22. #19

    You’re the guy who wants America’s azz kicked. So I assume you will vote for the most efficient way of getting that done.

    Appalled (03f53c)

  23. @19 Gaven newsome/AOC 2024 makes as much since as trump/haley.

    asset (d0eb7b)

  24. s forgiving $10,000 for borrowers who make less than $125,000 per year

    This is probably a cliff, rather than a phaseout, but people may be able to avoid falling off the cliff, even after the close of the year, by contributing to an IRA or a few other things.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  25. @17 I think constantly bringing up J6 is simply going to be ignored and won’t be a factor in future elections.

    I’m willing to wager that the vast majority of GOP/Independent voters has “Moved on dot org” when it appears that those who actually rioted are being prosecuted. There are far more important issues facing voters now.

    whembly (b770f8)

  26. #26

    If Trump is not the GOP candidate in 2024, I think you are right. As long as he is the candidate, he will demand that his stolen election myth be a big part of the discussion and 1-6 never goes away.

    The GOP may never have to reckon with Trump because he may die or go to jail before his candidacy gets under way. I would not bet on that though. As much as I fantasize that Trump is convicted here in Atlanta and sent to Reidsville. (Interesting bit of trivia — the governor does not have pardon power in Georgia. If I had a conspiracy turn of mind, I wuld guess that that’s why the prosecution here is advancing, rather than in one of the other states Trump tried to mess with.)

    Appalled (119b90)

  27. Marjorie Taylor Greene says “it’s completely unfair” for the federal government to forgive loans.

    This is Marjorie Taylor Greene’s company.

    @RepMTG had $183,504 in PPP loans forgiven.

    Loan forgiveness for me, not for thee.

    https://twitter.com/MeidasTouch/status/1562547465013719040

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  28. @23. It deserves it- look who it allows itself to choose from; look at the low caliber of crap it keeps electing to power at all levels– sponsored by two incredibly corrupt, ideologically driven political parties who’ve done more damage to American institutions over the past 50 years than China, Russia, Tojo’s Japan or Nazi Germany could have dreamed. Few have faith nor belief in what their institution tell them anymore, be it about war, economics or simple public health issues. Populism is rooting deeper and deeper thanks the damage by Rs and Ds; the caldron is simmering to a boil more often than not– due to these destructive, ideologically driven political parties, their evious interest groups who do the financing, who are destroying the nation from within. Why do you think Putin and Xi smile so much. It is why a Trump inevitably emerges or a DeSantis plays the fool or you get sucker-punched by old, brain damaged Biden, Krusty the Klinton, etc.

    DCSCA (c68776)

  29. College costs of have gone up much faster then inflation. He’s my proposal on how to fix it.

    1. Make college debt dischargeable in bankruptcy after a ‘reasonable’ time has passed since graduation. I’d be happy with any definition of reasonable that was 5 years or more.
    2. Make the college co-sign some modest (10%-30%) of the loan.

    Goal would be to allow people to of modest means to pursue a college education without saddling someone with 150K+ in debt based on decisions that were made when they were 18-22.

    The requirement for reasonable gap after graduation would be to prevent people from gaming the system by getting a degree and declaring bankruptcy to wipe out the debt when they’re an unemployed 22 and then go get a ‘real’ job. By the time you’re 27 (or older for ppl with advanced degrees) a successful person is established enough that doing that would be painful.

    Seems like a compromise to help ppl out who made a dumb mistake without creating a huge moral hazard.

    Forcing colleges to co-sign would put some skin the game for them as well and create a incentive for them to consider job opportunities more then they currently do.

    Time123 (64727c)

  30. Time123 – College costs have actually fallen in the last decade, in real terms, at Purdue. So it’s possible.

    You might want to read Josh Mitchell’s “The Debt Trap: How Student Loans Became a National Catastrophe” if you want background on this problem.

    Jim Miller (85fd03)

  31. You’re looking at this entirely the wrong way, comrades.

    Like I said on the other thread, student loans were always a government subsidy to colleges. The students were little more than the vehicle for delivering it.

    Forgiving the students’ debt is the small remedy for the crime that the government and the colleges conspired to commit against them. What is the remedy for the years of their life and youth that they lost?

    nk (4207c6)

  32. Jill Biden tests positive for COVID rebound case

    So, lessee, in the rare rebound from Paxlovid category, we have Biden, Jill Biden, Fauci (who wrote himself a 2nd dosing), everyone I know who took Paxlovid, and me.

    They have to say this, because the numbers they have from the drug trials in 2020-2021 show this, and that’s the CDC gospel. It’s just wrong with respect to current strains. The Paxlovid regime should be 8 days, but they don’t have any studies to allow that.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  33. (The other innovation needed, even sooner, is to make colleges and universities responsible, at least in part, for the loans they hand out.)

    There other track is for the degree to be worth the price. You may end up with $150K in debt from a CalTech engineering degree, but it will get paid off. Not so much for the same debt for a Harvard gender stidies degree.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  34. Is the $10K taxable income? Forgiven debts often are.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  35. “Is the $10K taxable income? Forgiven debts often are.”

    Thanks to the American Rescue Plan, this debt relief will not be treated as taxable income for the federal income tax purposes.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/08/24/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-student-loan-relief-for-borrowers-who-need-it-most/

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  36. OT: California to Ban the Sale of New Gasoline Cars

    California regulators on Thursday will vote to put in place a sweeping plan to restrict and ultimately ban the sale of gasoline-powered cars, state officials said, a move that the state’s governor described as the beginning of the end for the internal combustion engine.

    The new policy, detailed Wednesday morning in a news conference, is widely expected to accelerate the global transition toward electric vehicles. Not only is California the largest auto market in the United States, but more than a dozen other states typically follow California’s lead when setting their own auto emissions standards.

    If those states follow through, and most are expected to adopt similar rules, the restrictions would apply to about a third of the United States auto market.

    “This is huge,” said Margo Oge, an electric vehicles expert who headed the Environmental Protection Agency’s transportation emissions program under Presidents Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama. As additional states put in place their own versions of these policies, “they will drive the market, and drive innovation,” she said.

    The rule, issued by the California Air Resources Board, will require that all new cars sold in the state by 2035 be free of greenhouse gas emissions like carbon dioxide. The rule also sets interim targets, requiring that 35 percent of new passenger vehicles sold by 2026 produce zero emissions. That requirement climbs to 68 percent by 2030.

    Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, called the new rule “one of the most significant steps to the elimination of the tailpipe as we know it. Our kids are going to act like it’s a rotary phone, or changing the channel on a television,” Governor Newsom said in an interview. – source, NYTimes.com

    Horsesh-t. Is this putz an imbecile or an idiot? There’s no third choice. Does he even know what the electricity rates ate across California today??? ‘Our kids’ will have driven to Texas and Florida to live by then.

    IDIOT.

    “Eastbound and down; loaded up and truckin'” – Jerry Reed

    DCSCA (c68776)

  37. It may be partially wishful thinking, but I give it >50% this is overturned in the courts. The OLC memo setting out the legal basis for the order strikes me as weak.

    lurker (cd7cd4)

  38. @38. Doesn’t matter; the move was made now only for the midterms to try to buy votes– after election day he won’t give a damn when it craters in the courts.

    DCSCA (c68776)

  39. Someone will sue (basis? taxpayer?) very soon.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  40. Does he even know what the electricity rates ate across California today???

    The top rate in Los Angeles is about 35 cents a KWh, counting all upcharges.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  41. This reminds me of the DACA executive order dealing with illegal immigrants. In his first term, Obama said he didn’t have the power. In his second term, he went ahead and did it.

    It’s that whole “If Congress won’t act, I will” philosophy.

    The Founders would respond with “No, you will not act. If you can’t persuade Congress, then go pound sand.”

    Until voters punish Presidents who pull this crap, they will be tempted to continue pulling this crap.

    As I’ve said before, the sh!tshow will continue until the voters improve.

    norcal (da5491)

  42. Still, you have to admire a leader who actually leads, and does not apologize for his signature achievement when he is booed for saying “vaccine” at one of his rallies.

    nk (4207c6)

  43. You still like me, right?

    norcal (da5491)

  44. @Dana@1 “I would like to know how much encouragement is given to kids these days to attend a two-year community college for their gen ed and then transfer to university?”

    It really depends a lot on the person doing the encouraging. It wasn’t that long ago that the ranking system for HS success included the percentage of students to attend a traditional 4 year college/university right after HS. Some of the ranking systems still include this. During the Bush No Child Left Behind era, there was also a lot of emphasis on college readiness, college readiness, college readiness and that mean traditional 4 year college/university readiness and a lot of the career and technical ed programs which also tended to lead to the junior college were wiped out of most schools in the early-mid 2000s. About that time, however, there started to be more interested from industry in public/private partnerships with the JC system so that industry could get workers trained to do jobs in their industries. This has continued to increase over the last decade and there’s much more of a push for the JCs than there used to be, especially in school systems with a higher percentage of blue/pink collar workers. In wealthier districts JCs might as well not exist except for students looking to get step-ahead college credits before they graduate from HS.

    My personal opinion is that we should be pushing kids to the JC. Hard. Especially since many junior colleges now offer a couple specific and generally locally useful 4 year degrees, often in public/private partnerships.

    As to the post itself, I don’t love this move and I don’t think it’s a great idea. However, since it probably was an issue politically difficult to avoid with the screaming from the far left, I think this was probably the best way to do it. By keeping it to 10,000 or less you are at least rewarding people who either chose their schools and spending carefully or who have been consistently paying off their debts, so at least he isn’t rewarding people who wantonly spent a bajillion dollars on a degree that couldn’t pay for itself. And, in the future, if they want to help students who need that specific kind of small loan to access college, maybe they should think about expanding their grant program instead.

    Nic (896fdf)

  45. @41. Which is meaningless. The grid can’t even handle a windy day let alone a glut of EV drain. So rates keep rising to pay for forced upgrades and essential maintenance after decades of neglect by the power companies. Last year the damn blackouts blew out the computer board in my fridge from the on-off outages from wind and rain. The outage ran for days and we lost applainces and food.

    Gavin Newsom is a goddamn idiot:

    According to U.S. Census Bureau data, there are 31 million cars in California legally registered to be on the road—which is more than any other state. Because of this, you shouldn’t be surprised that CA also has the most congested roadways in the country.

    California’s electrical grid has an EV problem

    California energy officials issued a sobering warning this month, telling residents to brace for potential blackouts as the state’s energy grid faces capacity constraints heading into the summer months. In Sacramento, officials said California’s grid could face a potential shortfall of roughly 1,700 megawatts, which would affect the power supply of between 1 million and 4 million people this summer. That number would likely be exacerbated by an additional shortfall of 5,000 megawatts in the case of extreme heat and further fire damage to existing power lines.

    And since the state has committed to phase out all new gas-powered vehicles by 2035 — well ahead of federal targets — the additional load from electric vehicle (EV) charging could add more strain to the electric grid. Let’s say we were to have a substantial number of [electric] vehicles charging at home as everybody dreams,” Ram Rajagopal, an associate professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering at Stanford University, who authored a recent study looking at the strain electric vehicle adoption is expected to place on the power grid, told Yahoo Finance. “Today’s grid may not be able to support it. It all boils down to: Are you charging during the time solar power is on?” – yahoonews.com

    DCSCA (f19561)

  46. OT: Jury orders L.A. County to pay $31 million in Kobe Bryant crash photo sharing case

    For the life of me I don’t understand why the County didn’t settle. There was no way they could have won, certainly not in the court of public opinion.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  47. For the life of me I don’t understand why the County didn’t settle. There was no way they could have won, certainly not in the court of public opinion.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 8/24/2022 @ 6:03 pm

    It’s easy to gamble with other people’s money.

    norcal (da5491)

  48. “In 2005, then-Senator Biden voted for a bill called the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act. The bill was meant to address abuse of the bankruptcy process. It made it more difficult to declare bankruptcy, and much, much harder to have student debt discharged. Under the 2005 law, educational loans can only be discharged if not doing so would impose an “undue hardship.”… Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch introduc[ed] the bankruptcy bill for a Senate floor vote in 2005, thanking Biden for years of tireless support for helping write and advance the legislation.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/biden-defends-vote-on-2005-law-that-made-it-harder-to-escape-student-debt-143102760.html

    DCSCA (f19561)

  49. Man, I’m glad my wife and I both paid off our student loans a couple of decades ahead of schedule, so we could subsidize a bunch of upper-middle class Millennial and Zoomer deadbeats who’d rather spend money on weed, road trips, and the latest boutique restaurant rather than the loans they willingly took out.

    If we’re going to supercharge inflation again by injecting a bunch of liquidity back in to the market thanks to these payoffs, at least give me and my wife the $75K total that we paid in principle and interest so we can pretend like we’re getting a tax rebate or something.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  50. “If we’re going to supercharge inflation again by injecting a bunch of liquidity back in to the market thanks to these payoffs”

    No it’s not. Student loan payments have been suspended for two years now, it’s baked in.

    “at least give me and my wife the $75K total that we paid in principle and interest so we can pretend like we’re getting a tax rebate or something.”

    Too bad you missed out on PPP debt forgiveness. More than twice the total debt cancelled (725 billion) and not a word from the usual suspects.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  51. Hopefully, a good federal judge will smack the OLC, and their little Biden, too.

    Paul Montagu (062b7e)

  52. Trump’s $916 million of NOLs: The Art of the Dodge?

    Today, The New York Times dissected the $916 million of Net Operating Losses (NOLs) that Donald Trump claimed on his 1995 tax return, which The Times disclosed last month. Basically, Trump borrowed, and lost, a large amount of money in a series of failed ventures, mainly casinos. While the losses were mostly borne by his creditors, Trump took tax deductions for large amounts of interest, depreciation, and operating expenses. As a result, he was potentially able to avoid paying federal income taxes for nearly two decades.

    I’m using Trump as an example only for the poignancy. I like poignancy. His measly $916 million is a drop in the bucket of the total NOLs claimed every year by businessmen who ventured and lost money.

    And you know how they calculate their “loss”? They hire an appraiser to estimate how much they “should” have made. And you know what they write it off of? The taxes on the other money they made.

    And with educated people like all you all, who made their education pay, I don’t suppose I need to tell you what my point is, do I?

    nk (4207c6)

  53. the media suddenly figured out biden is president, and all he’s done is good stuff

    whenever a tax cut is proposed the media offers instant analysis about how the rich benefit more than the poor

    you have to dig deep to find any mention of disproportionate impact for loan forgiveness, and guess what it’s great cuz a certain racial group benefits more

    JF (e6d506)

  54. @FWO Have you done the math on what kind of family and school would need a 10,000 loan? It’s 2,500 a year across 4 years or 2000 a year across 5, which comes to roughly 200-300 per month during the academic year. It isn’t the upper middle class who takes that kind of loan or who uses it to pay for the base-level state school. The upper middle class want a prestige school and those cost far far more than 2500 a year and they can afford an extra 200-300 a month without needing a loan.

    Nic (896fdf)

  55. Too bad you missed out on PPP debt forgiveness. More than twice the total debt cancelled (725 billion) and not a word from the usual suspects.
    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:02 pm

    the usual suspects, meaning those cheerleading lockdowns?

    JF (e6d506)

  56. nk (4207c6) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:03 pm

    comment #53

    over wins

    JF (e6d506)

  57. “the usual suspects, meaning those cheerleading lockdowns?”

    I provided an example @28. There are plenty more right wing knuckleheads complaining about loan forgiveness who accepted PPP forgiveness for a lot more than $10k.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  58. No it’s not. Student loan payments have been suspended for two years now, it’s baked in.

    You mean in the rampaging inflation already taking place?

    Too bad you missed out on PPP debt forgiveness. More than twice the total debt cancelled (725 billion) and not a word from the usual suspects.

    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:02 pm

    Why would I have taken out a PPP loan when I don’t even have a business?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  59. “You mean in the rampaging inflation already taking place?”

    Move those goalposts.

    “Why would I have taken out a PPP loan when I don’t even have a business?”

    You missed out complaining about them.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  60. @FWO Have you done the math on what kind of family and school would need a 10,000 loan? It’s 2,500 a year across 4 years or 2000 a year across 5, which comes to roughly 200-300 per month during the academic year. It isn’t the upper middle class who takes that kind of loan or who uses it to pay for the base-level state school. The upper middle class want a prestige school and those cost far far more than 2500 a year and they can afford an extra 200-300 a month without needing a loan.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:05 pm

    Bull. This isn’t being done to benefit the working class. It’s being done to benefit the white collar suburbanites that the Dems are catering to now.

    And yes, the upper middle class does, in fact, take out those loans, and quite frequently too, because there are only so many slots for “prestige” schools, whatever that means. Most of them are, in fact, going to state schools, not Notre Dame. That’s how student loan debt got to $1.75 trillion total, the majority of which is for people who went to grad school.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  61. Move those goalposts.

    Oh, inflation isn’t actually that bad? Thanks for confirming that those student loans not being paid has contributed to it.

    You missed out complaining about them.

    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:17 pm

    Your point being?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  62. Here’s the WaPo on who qualifies for the free stuff.

    Not a word about legal questions, just GOOD NEWS!

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  63. Have you SEEN the price of chicken?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  64. For the life of me I don’t understand why the County didn’t settle. There was no way they could have won, certainly not in the court of public opinion.

    Why should the plaintiffs settle? It’s not like the Bryants were eating cat food while the lawyers squabbled.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  65. Which is meaningless. The grid can’t even handle a windy day let alone a glut of EV drain.

    Peak use is late afternoon. Given solar, peak net demand is a little later. People charge cars overnight (and will probably be given incentives to do so) when demand is much lower. It’s not as obvious a problem as you think. Of course, if they shut down all the fossil fuel power stations and refuse to go nuclear, it will be a big problem. With or without EVs.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  66. Children’s dreams. Parents’ dreams.

    Most kids start college hunting when they’re still seventeen. Toward the end of their junior year or the beginning of their senior year.

    And the government was there, like a Judas goat, to entice them down the chute to the diploma mill abattoir. Signing away their youth and their lives. For a dish of potage that they would have to pay for later.

    Your government! You did not stop it then, so don’t complain about the chickens coming home to roost now!

    nk (4207c6)

  67. By keeping it to 10,000 or less you are at least rewarding people who either chose their schools and spending carefully or who have been consistently paying off their debts

    Camel. Nose. Tent.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  68. Oh, now I see why Dave’s bringing up PPP loans–it’s being parroted on Twitter by his fellow leftists.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  69. “If we’re going to supercharge inflation again by injecting a bunch of liquidity back in to the market thanks to these payoffs”

    “Oh, inflation isn’t actually that bad? Thanks for confirming that those student loans not being paid has contributed to it.”

    So which is it?

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  70. Your government! You did not stop it then, so don’t complain about the chickens coming home to roost now!

    But the chickens coming home to roost would save me a lot of money on chicken! Not complaining.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  71. “Oh, now I see why Dave’s bringing up PPP loans–it’s being parroted on Twitter by his fellow leftists.”

    Oh, now I see why FWO’s bringing up student loans-it’s being parroted on Twitter by his fellow rightists.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  72. So which is it?

    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:35 pm

    Yes.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  73. Oh, now I see why FWO’s bringing up student loans-it’s being parroted on Twitter by his fellow rightists.

    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:37 pm

    Student loans are being reported in the news, Dave, perhaps you and your fellow parrots missed it.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  74. But it wasn’t just government, it was every last humanities department starting way back when they got LBJ to get them on the NDSL gravy train. Instead of restricting the loans to scientists, mathematicians, engineers and linguists — all needed back then, it was opened up to history, English, classics and fine art. Then to things they had never thought of, like ethnic and gender studies. Cue inflation.

    The tuition at CalTech was $5,000 a year in 1975. Now it’s $60,000 a year. Now maybe inflation has been 1200% over the last 50 years, but I kinda doubt it. And is a Harvard Classics degree worth $200,000?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  75. To be fair, all those college bureaucrats needed to interface with the D.Ed. and all those grant programs don’t come cheap.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  76. “Yes.”

    Not as impactful as PPP loan forgiveness.

    Total cost of the pause: $300 billion (source)

    Total cost of forgiveness: $250 billion

    Total cost of PPP forgiveness: $750 billion

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  77. When the value of the nation’s currency is based on the nation’s productivity, and $50 trillion (yeah 13 zeros) of it is in the NYSE and NASDAQ doing nothing except being a mathematical exercise, I find it hard to blame debt default as the cause of inflation.

    nk (4207c6)

  78. @66. Except it is. The grid cannot support idiot Newsom’s blatherings. It’s fragile and easily disrupted by fire or wind. Add to it the drought and when the Big One hits, the collapse will be total. And to upgrade anything will cost billions and raise rates on everything. Should be quaint seeing all that California farmland being cultivated by electric farm machinery, too. =sarc= People are leaving California– and his mind set is one of the motivations firing up people’s engines to hit the road.

    DCSCA (4a197e)

  79. @FWO@61 In CA, the prestige schools are UCs. UC Merced calculates costs at almost 29,000 per year with off campus housing. CSU Stanislaus, 30 minutes down the road, estimates less than 7,000. The upper middle class kids aren’t going to Stanislaus and 2500 wouldn’t touch the tuition at Merced.

    Nic (896fdf)

  80. @69

    Oh, now I see why Dave’s bringing up PPP loans–it’s being parroted on Twitter by his fellow leftists.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:34 pm

    Yeah, it’s a silly complaint.

    The PPP was designed for businesses to keep paying their employees during the shutdown. A shutdown perpetuated by the government.

    The government didn’t force the students to take out dumb loans.

    whembly (b770f8)

  81. @FWO@61 In CA, the prestige schools are UCs. UC Merced calculates costs at almost 29,000 per year with off campus housing. CSU Stanislaus, 30 minutes down the road, estimates less than 7,000. The upper middle class kids aren’t going to Stanislaus and 2500 wouldn’t touch the tuition at Merced.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:51 pm

    Is California your only frame of reference? The whole point of this is precisely because upper middle class Dems have been begging for it.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  82. “The PPP was designed for businesses to keep paying their employees during the shutdown. A shutdown perpetuated by the government.”

    https://twitter.com/JudiciaryGOP/status/1562485669339213827

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  83. @83 …and?

    whembly (b770f8)

  84. And the UCs are, in fact, state schools, as they are all public schools just like the Cal State schools. The only difference between the University of Colorado and Colorado State, for instance, was their original academic mission–CU for the middle class professionals, CSU for the farmers and vocational workers. The elite went to DU or Colorado College.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  85. “…and?”

    The PPP loans were, well, loans. But $750 billion of them were forgiven.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  86. ut it wasn’t just government, it was every last humanities department starting way back when they got LBJ to get them on the NDSL gravy train. Instead of restricting the loans to scientists, mathematicians, engineers and linguists — all needed back then, it was opened up to history, English, classics and fine art. Then to things they had never thought of, like ethnic and gender studies. Cue inflation.

    I agree, Kevin.

    nk (4207c6)

  87. @83 …and?

    whembly (b770f8) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:06 pm

    The hilarious thing is that he appears to believe this is some kind of own because apparently only GOP reps or global mega-corps took out those loans, or something.

    There’s a whole bunch of streamers, for instance, who took out those loans because apparently the streaming was their “business,” even though they were a one-person operation and never had to leave the house. Thus, the loan had no functional purpose except a windfall from Uncle Sugar.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  88. “Thus, the loan had no functional purpose except a windfall from Uncle Sugar.”

    You make my point better than I did.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  89. You make my point better than I did.

    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:22 pm

    Considering the it was pointed out largely by libertarian-leaning conservatives that all the COVID “relief” measures wouldn’t do anything except kick off inflation, I’d say the point was made 2 years ago, n’est-ce pas?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  90. The PPP was designed for businesses to keep paying their employees during the shutdown. A shutdown perpetuated by the government.

    The government didn’t force the students to take out dumb loans.

    whembly (b770f8) — 8/24/2022 @ 7:55 pm

    This is an important point, and I think the lefties are glossing over it. They are focusing on whether the business loans were forgiven, which is beside the point. Loans or grants, they were a result of a shutdown mandated by the government. The government didn’t force students to get loans.

    norcal (da5491)

  91. i hope everyone eff’d by the lockdowns maxed out their PPP loans and paid none of it back

    JF (963a4d)

  92. @FWO California is my frame of reference for education because I have the most experience with it. I could talk about Penn State or UW vs WSU or UNR vs UNLV. And yes, I can talk about DU vs CSU vs CU if that is your preference, but the system I know best is the California one. And regardless of who was begging for it, it has so far been tailored in a way that the people who benefit most are people who only needed to take out small loans, which is why I said that though I didn’t approve, if it had to be done, it seemed to me that this was the best way to do it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  93. And in case people missed it, because the media is notably glossing over this in their headlines, it’s not just people making $125K or less that are eligible–it’s also married couples making up to $250K.

    In what universe does a couple who makes that much (not to mention someone making $125K) need student loan debt forgiveness? They could easily afford a $2000 payment a month, or more, if they budgeted their money properly.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  94. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:32 pm

    Good point. I never made over $105,000 per year, and yet I’ve paid off my house, three vehicles, and have enough left over to pay off multiple student loans, if there had been any.

    This is basically a reward to people who can’t manage their finances.

    norcal (da5491)

  95. And regardless of who was begging for it, it has so far been tailored in a way that the people who benefit most are people who only needed to take out small loans, which is why I said that though I didn’t approve, if it had to be done, it seemed to me that this was the best way to do it.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:30 pm

    The point is that it didn’t actually need to be done–it’s being done for the benefit of a bunch of deadbeat upper middle class college grads wanting their student loan debts written off so they can go consoooooooooooome some more, rather than pay the piper for that degree they desperately wanted.

    The irony is that paying off debt is a deflationary activity, and if these bougies would actually live up to their responsibilities on the front end, maybe they wouldn’t have to pay as much for everything else on the back end.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  96. “Considering the it was pointed out largely by libertarian-leaning conservatives that all the COVID “relief” measures wouldn’t do anything except kick off inflation, I’d say the point was made 2 years ago, n’est-ce pas?”

    The CARES act passed the house 419-6, and the senate 96-0.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  97. This is basically a reward to people who can’t manage their finances.

    norcal (da5491) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:37 pm

    Your refrain about “stupid voters” comes to mind here, because the Jones-stage Boomers and Gen-Xers clearly failed, as generations to properly teach the Millennials and Zoomers about delayed gratification and how to budget properly.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  98. I have a buddy who hasn’t paid anything towards his student loans in 30 years, yet he has money to buy box after box of baseball cards, and attend major sporting events and concerts.

    He makes less than 100k per year, so he’ll benefit from this.

    It’s ridiculous.

    norcal (da5491)

  99. @FWO@96 Biden seems to have needed to do something in this area the same way Trump needed to appoint conservative judges. There are political realities in each political party when dealing with the wingnuttier areas of their parties.

    This is not writing off the debt of a person who paid 30,000 a year for college. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to be against it, like Kevin’s concern that it will lead to larger write offs, or mine that when a person commits to something, they should fulfill that commitment, or even the one you state above where you think it’s better for the economy for people to pay off debt. But the idea that this is helping mostly upper middle class lazy twits is a misrepresentation that takes away from the point you are actually making about the economy.

    Nic (896fdf)

  100. Boomers and Gen-Xers

    All too often even these generations couldn’t find their financial ass with both hands.

    norcal (da5491)

  101. The CARES act passed the house 419-6, and the senate 96-0.

    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:42 pm

    And? Were there any libertarian-leaning conservatives in Congress at that time, other than Justin Amash?

    Your side didn’t seem to have any particular concerns about inflation from that, incidentally. Unless you’re actually making the argument here that inflation is no big deal or isn’t happening at all.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  102. But the idea that this is helping mostly upper middle class lazy twits is a misrepresentation that takes away from the point you are actually making about the economy.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:46 pm

    It’s not an “idea,” it will actually benefit mostly upper middle class lazy twits. Penn-Wharton already analyzed that 70 percent of the debt relief is going to the top 60% of income earners.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  103. This is basically a reward to people who can’t manage their finances.

    Is it? Could it possibly be what it appears to be? Relief of a debt they were encouraged to incur, and enabled to incur, not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of a cap-and-gowned racket that gave them nothing in return except the prolongation of their infancy?

    nk (4207c6)

  104. “Were there any libertarian-leaning conservatives in Congress at that time, other than Justin Amash?”

    Nobody cares about libertarians.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  105. Good points, nk, but at what age does one take full responsibility for debts, and isn’t this a slap in the face to those, who under similar debt, sacrificed to pay off that debt, instead of, like my buddy mentioned above, spent their money on fun things?

    norcal (da5491)

  106. Oh, the Republicans did something I didn’t like? I’m actually a libertarian.

    Davethulhu (aac330)

  107. @FWO@103 The data is looking at a skewed population, which is easy to overlook if you don’t consider the percent of the population who are college graduates. People who are college graduates, and thus have college debt, make more money on average than people who don’t. 60% of the population didn’t graduate from college, so it isn’t going to benefit that group of people. It is going to most benefit people who only took out small loans and are average earners (working people) for people who are college graduates.

    Nic (896fdf)

  108. Total cost of forgiveness: $250 billion

    Where does that number come from? Even the Biden people acknowledge it will be somewhere in the $300 billion range, and the Wharton school pegged the costs at $330 billion before the additional $10k for Pell Grant recipients was announced. There is an argument to be made that the Biden Administration’s new rules lowering the maximum monthly repayment from 10% of a borrower’s income down to 5%, along with automatic forgiveness of any outstanding balance on a loan less than $12,000 after 10 years of repayment instead of the current 20 years, and capped off by a raising of the ceiling which makes borrowere earning up to 225% of the poverty level eligible for opting-out of repayment could ultimately push the long-term price tag to over a trillion dollars. All of this without any authorization from Congress, mind you.

    JVW (020d31)

  109. And as to the comparison of this to the PPP, there is a huge difference: the PPP was enacted because governments all over the country chose to shut down the economy and either prevented businesses from operating during the pandemic, or severely crimped their operations. No government agent forced a kid to borrow $50,000 in order to chase a degree which was unlikely to lead to a job where that sum could easily be paid back.

    JVW (020d31)

  110. All of this without any authorization from Congress, mind you.

    JVW (020d31) — 8/24/2022 @ 9:42 pm

    Yes. It’s doubly outrageous. On top of being bad policy, it’s being done with an executive wave of the wand.

    I hope this backfires on Biden.

    norcal (da5491)

  111. The government shouldn’t even be in the student loan business.

    Heretical thought, I know.

    norcal (da5491)

  112. If this kind of pandering continues, the government will eventually be doing everything for you short of wiping your ass.

    norcal (da5491)

  113. @norcal@113 A bidet in every bathroom!

    Nic (896fdf)

  114. Good one, Nic.

    “A chicken in every pot” didn’t even have alliteration!

    norcal (da5491)

  115. What price fairness? Is it fair that the rich can get expensive treatment and medicine that the poor can not? The law in all its magnificent equality forbids the rich man as well as the poor man from sleeping under a bridge. Trump can discharge his debt with bankruptcy collage loans can not is that fair. Rich can pay for their children to go to collage ;but poor cannot. Should only the rich go to collage. Leaving fairness aside is it fair to harm the country? The young intellectual class because of collage loan debt that they can’t discharge are not getting married and raising a family or buying a house because of collage debt. Leaving homes to speculators to bid up the prices. Demand for fairness is damaging the country Read the data on the effect of collage debt on younger people. The uneducated are dying of fentanyl in their uneducated hopelessness over 100k while your fairness is harming the young middle class. Their future is AOC not your fairness. Remember desperate times call for desperate measures. The underclass whites tried with trump the left will be more ruthless.

    asset (42b22d)

  116. asset: “Should only the rich go to collage.”

    This should be a bumper sticker

    AJ_Liberty (c916b7)

  117. Time to swallow up the endowments from these leftist institutions. Thry have been pushing socialism on steroids so it’s time to give them a taste of their own medicine.

    Let’s Go Brandon!

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  118. The government shouldn’t even be in the student loan business.

    Totally agree. And not no stinking school vouchers neither.

    Heretical thought, I know.

    Yes, actually, it is. It is an Article of Faith, indoctrinated into every kid beginning at Junior High for more than 40 years now that your parents’ and (later) your grandparents’ factory jobs are now overseas, so you better go to college if you want a decent job. Yeah, nobody was “forced”.

    nk (4207c6)

  119. Oh, the Republicans did something I didn’t like? I’m actually a libertarian.

    Davethulhu (aac330) — 8/24/2022 @ 8:59 pm

    MUH PPPP LOANZ!

    @FWO@103 The data is looking at a skewed population, which is easy to overlook if you don’t consider the percent of the population who are college graduates. People who are college graduates, and thus have college debt, make more money on average than people who don’t. 60% of the population didn’t graduate from college, so it isn’t going to benefit that group of people. It is going to most benefit people who only took out small loans and are average earners (working people) for people who are college graduates.

    Nic (896fdf) — 8/24/2022 @ 9:01 pm

    And? None of this refutes the fact that it mostly benefits the upper middle class, and primarily people who have been skating on paying their loans for well over 2 years now, despite this supposedly amazing job market the administration keeps touting that apparently doesn’t factor in to loan payment suspension.

    In fact, your argument that this mostly benefits people who only took out small loans and that college graduates make more money on average than those who don’t, is an elegant argument that loan forgiveness isn’t necessary at all–because they can actually make the payments.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  120. I’m still stuck on how the President believes the HEROES legislation applies to this situation, and how the President can unilaterally impose such a massive financial obligation. Again, it seems part of our political dysfunction that this is how business is being done. Congress needs to debate and vote on this and Biden is awful for asserting this.

    We previously discussed all the things wrong with this, but right now the biggest concern will be the inflationary push….where people who were previously making payments will now have more extra cash with the same goods out there. Plus, this will tend to push tuition costs higher if schools figure the government will step in and assume payments. It’s just a dumb time to do this and even a leftist economist like Larry Summers sees it (as he did with the stimulus package last year).

    I think the heart is in the right place…as it often is with liberals….but it misses their usual focus on justice. If you want to start subsidizing college for everyone starting tomorrow….that is one thing….again I would say that would be a mistake but that at least starts the clock at the same point for everyone. Here is rewards a very narrow window of people with the presumption that likely in a few years those people won’t have this option….or in the worst case, we will produce more people who feel that they should get bailed out.

    I understand Biden is trying to generate some momentum but do this through Congress and come up with a bipartisan plan. We have to stop this ramming philosophy….both sides.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  121. @121 AJ… don’t you know? It’s an emergency! POTUS can do whatever he wants during an eeemerg–ency!

    whembly (b770f8)

  122. @FWO@120 My point was that while I didn’t agree with doing this, it could’ve been worse and that it’s better that it ends up being more beneficial to people who were careful in the first place, instead of people who borrowed way too much instead of only what was necessary.

    Nic (896fdf)


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