Patterico's Pontifications

7/13/2022

Elizabeth Warren: Pregnancy Crisis Centers “Torture” Women, Wants Them Shut Down

Filed under: General — Dana @ 2:00 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Sen. Elizabeth Warren made it very clear this week when speaking to reporters that she would prefer to see more abortions and fewer mothers receive help and support for themselves and their unborn babies:

“In Massachusetts right now, those crisis pregnancy centers that are there to fool people who are looking for pregnancy termination help outnumber true abortion clinics by 3 to 1. We need to shut them down here in Massachusetts, and we need to shut them down all around the country. You should not be able to torture a pregnant person like that.,”

What a dangerous and gross generalization Warren has made. The sneering hate in her voice is palpable. Why on earth would she want to shut down places that offer hope to women in need? That she does compels me to wonder why she is so anti-baby and anti-woman. Clearly, to Warren, some women are more equal than others, and are more deserving than others. Warren also very mistakenly assumes that every woman who finds herself unexpectedly pregnant, wants an abortion. If that were true, there wouldn’t be any need for pregnancy crisis centers and a quick Google search for “pregnancy crisis centers” wouldn’t turn up 71,000,000 results. I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she is speaking from ignorance, but I can’t because I believe that her lies are the result of a grossly cynical political calculation. And I wonder: How does one take seriously an elected official who thunders that it is the crisis pregnancy centers that are “torturing” women and not abortion centers where vacuuming out a womb or scraping the uterus to extract a baby and placenta is all in a day’s work?

With that, your intrepid reporter took some time this morning to contact several crisis pregnancy centers throughout Massachusetts and California in order to talk to directors, staffers and volunteers about where Warren is wrong. I also inquired about the standard approach toward the women who walk through their doors or call on the phone, the options their centers provide, and their mission. Long story short: They all lay waste to Warren’s lies. What follows is an overall summary of what the various centers had to say. They operate in similar manner, thus their responses closely lined up with other centers, save for a few details. For privacy reasons, and not wishing to put any centers in jeopardy, I am not including individual names or specific locations of the centers.

My first question to each center was: What happens when a woman walks in your front door?

The centers greet them, and then provide them with a statement that spells out who they are, what their center does, and what they can provide for the women who need help through an unexpected pregnancy.

They make it very clear from the get-go that they are pregnancy centers, and not medical facilities. Women are informed up front that the centers do not perform abortions, nor refer out for abortions.

At that point, the woman makes her own decision about whether to stay and meet with a counselor, or leave the center. Any discussion at this point is permission-based: the woman coming through the door decides on how far she wants to go or if she wants to leave. There is no strong-arming, no effort to persuade them to stay, no manipulation. The woman decides. Period. The centers I spoke to stressed that they are completely transparent about the nature of their centers and that it is the woman coming through the door (or calling on the phone) that leads the conversation and makes her own decision. They reiterated that they intentionally want the woman to control the situation. They are not in the business of selling anything. [Ed. When I pointed out to one director that the pro-abortion camp would point the finger and say that women who make the decision to meet with a counselor are emotionally vulnerable, she agreed. But she also pointed out that if they had chosen to go to Planned Parenthood instead, they would be just as emotionally vulnerable.]

While some centers are part of a chain (for lack of a better word), centers generally provide at least some, if not all of the following: ultrasounds, pregnancy tests, counseling, and options for the woman who chooses to go through with her pregnancy. When asked about the options provided, one center director ticked off their list: counseling, pre-natal classes, parenting classes, father mentoring programs, new mother groups, and care and support from pregnancy to birth and after, and/or to adoption. Other centers offered very similar options as well including specific focus on teen dads via mentoring programs. When I asked if they help women who need financial support or housing, I was told by a director that they will help women fill out the necessary paperwork for city agencies that can provide housing resources and financial help. Also, employees and volunteers frequently choose to use their own personal resources to help in those areas as well. Centers also provide clothing, diapers, and formula, pre-natal vitamins, and maternity clothes. They stressed that they don’t just abandon these women and leave them to figure it out on their own after the baby arrives. Another center said that if a woman opts to have her baby, the center forms a relationship with that woman, and it continues well beyond birth. If there are financial, housing, support or medical insurance needs, they come alongside that mother to help in any way they can. One center has even paid patient parking tickets. Mommy-and-Me classes, luncheons, support groups, etc. seem to be a common offering. Some centers even match up the pregnant women with mother mentors who will be with them throughout the pregnancy and beyond. In other words, none that I spoke with simply abandon the mother after she gives birth. Their commitment to the woman (and baby) goes far beyond that moment.

When I asked if they brought up God in an effort to guilt or pressure a woman to keep her baby, one staffer said that using God (or anything else) to manipulate women is not what they’re about. Full stop.

Each center prioritizes transparency from the minute they are contacted by a woman who thinks she might be pregnant or knows she is pregnant. They also reiterated that they want a woman to make her own decisions, and not make them for her. They said that some women decide they want an abortion and leave their centers, and some women decide that they want to talk, and stay. Contrary to Warren’s generalization and lie, the centers I spoke with are not “there to fool people who are looking for pregnancy termination help”. If they choose an abortion, it’s their decision. If they choose to go through with the pregnancy, it’s their decision.

It’s stunning that Warren would want to shut down any place that is there to give women hope and the opportunity to make their own decisions about their future. One staffer said that she wished that Warren would just stop for a minute and actually think about the fact that she too was once an unborn woman. One center director said that she wished Elizabeth Warren understood that not every woman who seeks out an abortion actually wants one. They are in crisis and may just need to know that they aren’t alone and that they are valued. Moreover, she said that Elizabeth Warren isn’t looking out for any individual but rather the agenda she’s pushing, otherwise, Planned Parenthood wouldn’t be closing. Yet another one said: “I would love for Ms. Warren to visit our center. I would invite her to come and actually see firsthand what we do because it’s simply not what she thinks it is.” Of course, Elizabeth Warren would never accept such an invitation because the fact of the matter is, truth and transparency are the last things she’s interested in.

–Dana

128 Responses to “Elizabeth Warren: Pregnancy Crisis Centers “Torture” Women, Wants Them Shut Down”

  1. The people I spoke with at the crisis pregnancy centers were kind, gentle, and genuine in their concern for any woman faced with an unexpected pregnancy. While they of course would like to see every woman keep her baby, they understood that for some, that is not an option or desire, and at least in my convos with them, extended grace and understanding to them.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. > one staffer said that using God (or anything else) to manipulate women is not what they’re about. Full stop.

    I know we are never going to agree about abortion. And I’m sure there are fine people working in CPCs.

    But seeing something on this topic Ignores the long, well-documented history of their behavior tells me that I’m reading propaganda.

    We’re simply in a zero-sum fight; there’s no mutual win. What saddens me the most is how it leads to the destruction of respect and truth as well.

    john (cd2753)

  3. French on Warren:

    That’s a grotesquely unconstitutional suggestion.

    It’s also a fundamental mischaracterization of the vital work of crisis pregnancy centers to support moms and their babies.

    It doesn’t help that Warren has the charm of a stern-faced, ruler-wielding nun.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  4. Crisis pregnancy centers don’t torture women, but they are mostly useless. When they say they offer one or more of the following, generally speaking they offer pregnancy tests and counseling (more recently more of them offer one ultrasound apt and std testing). In many cases they don’t offer further medical care and very little help otherwise. There is a group of them in one state that offers full women’s health care (other than abortion) and various other full service providers are dotted around occasionally, which I would like to see more of, but the run of the mill ones? Nope.

    (see Sacramento life center which claims to be able to reverse a medical abortion, also it’s attached to the local Catholic parish, or the AIM women’s center in Steubenville OH, or the Assure women’s center in Nebraska- examples used because I know people who went to these or volunteered at them.)

    Nic (896fdf)

  5. For those who said the 10 year old pregnant raped girl in ohio was propaganda. The rapist has just been arrested.

    asset (286712)

  6. Warren is enough to make me believe in reincarnation. I imagine she lived centuries ago, and was the woman for whom the word “harpy” came into usage.

    I disagree with shutting down them down. How ridiculous. This is a free country.

    However, I think the tension between Planned Parenthood and crisis pregnancy centers is analogous to our political tribalism. It’s one camp or the other, and no compromise. Both of these places see the other as the enemy, and won’t send referrals to each other.

    How about a pregnancy center with a neutral staff who ask the woman what she wants, and provides a referral to Planned Parenthood if the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy? And vice versa?

    Those would be places that could legitimately claim to help a woman, without trying to sway her one way or the other. What a radical concept.

    norcal (da5491)

  7. Warren is enough to make me believe in reincarnation. I imagine she lived centuries ago, and was the woman for whom the word “harpy” came into usage.

    More likely burned at the stake after an Alito Inquisition. 😉

    DCSCA (fb2981)

  8. Warren also very mistakenly assumes that every woman who finds herself unexpectedly pregnant, wants an abortion.

    Freedom of choice.

    T’was nice while it lasted.

    ____

    OT- Super Moon:

    “Wednesday’s supermoon, also known as the “Full Buck Moon,” will appear opposite the sun in Earth-based longitude at 2:38 p.m. EDT, according to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). It will be the biggest and brightest supermoon of the year as it will be 222,089.3 miles (357,418 km) from Earth, edging out last month’s “Strawberry Moon,” according to The Old Farmer’s Almanac.

    What makes it a supermoon is that it appears larger than a typical full moon, reaching 90% perigee, the moon’s closest approach to Earth.” – yahoonews.com

    Remember to give Neil a wink.

    DCSCA (fb2981)

  9. Elizabeth Warren, like most leftists, don’t want women to think there’s any alternative to their blood sacrifice to Moloch. Just like how they claim an unborn baby is just a clump of cells and not a developing human. Also why they are so against ultrasounds and other forms of visual photography.

    NJRob (a0ea3d)

  10. Moloch. LOL.

    norcal (da5491)

  11. Crisis pregnancy centers don’t torture women, but they are mostly useless. When they say they offer one or more of the following, generally speaking they offer pregnancy tests and counseling (more recently more of them offer one ultrasound apt and std testing). In many cases they don’t offer further medical care and very little help otherwise. There is a group of them in one state that offers full women’s health care (other than abortion) and various other full service providers are dotted around occasionally, which I would like to see more of, but the run of the mill ones? Nope.

    Given your expressed pro-abort views here, I am not surprised by this comment. However, it’s noteworthy that you chose to ignore the bulk of the post and immediately regurgitate boilerplate rhetoric of the pro-aborts. I’ve provided a fairly comprehensive list of what some centers offer, and if you think that’s useless overall, then I think you should probably talk to a woman who has been faced with an unexpected pregnancy and with the support of a pregnancy crisis center had her baby and ask her whether she thinks they were useless. But the real fact of the matter is that you cannot say with any certainty that they are “mostly useless”. That is simply one person’s opinion – and I’m guessing an uninformed opinion, but, as we know, one with a firm bias already in place.

    As to full-service providers, as I stated in the post: ultrasounds, pregnancy testing, pre-natals are staples. Some centers have volunteer doctors and retired medical personnel that come in to help. I have a relative who is a retired nurse who does pregnancy tests and ultrasounds at a center. Most centers, I suspect, would do more if they could. Full service obviously costs money that most of these centers don’t have. But if you were to make regular donations to any of them and direct your donation to support medical personnel, I’m sure they’d be grateful.

    So I’m compelled to ask: If most of these centers are so useless, why does it matters to you? Or to Elizabeth Warren, for that matter? As to being useless: Why are there so many of them throughout the nation. Because, if they were truly useless they’d die out from a lack of demand.

    Dana (1225fc)

  12. They never were about “choice.” People like Warren view abortion as merely a form of birth control and she cannot see any moral aspect to the disposal of a few grams of unwanted flesh.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  13. DCSCA @ 7,

    I worked very hard on this post and would appreciate it if you didn’t go off thread from the get-go.

    Dana (1225fc)

  14. @12. Certainly wasn’t intended, Dana. And yes, it’s a well composed and thoughtful post. It’s such a personal topic to be sure.

    DCSCA (75d97f)

  15. @Dana@10 I’m pro-choice, which means that I think a woman should have the right to an abortion if she wants one and she shouldn’t have an abortion if she doesn’t want one. I’m sorry that my knowledge gained from people who have actually used or volunteered at crisis pregnancy centers differs from the PR crisis pregnancy centers might give to someone who calls to ask journalistic type questions of them, but that is my knowledge, gained from talking to women who have been faced with an unexpected pregnancy and attempted to gain support from a pregnancy crisis center but had to go elsewhere for help in having their babies. I find it disingenuous for many of them to advertise themselves as useful to women experiencing a crisis pregnancy when they are not particularly useful. As I said in my comment (I think you may have only read the first sentence or two), I wish there were more crisis pregnancy centers that provided a full range of non-abortion pregnancy support, but there aren’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  16. Elizabeth Warren, like most leftists, don’t want women to think there’s any alternative to their blood sacrifice to Moloch.

    Lest you forget, NJ, she started off as a Republican; from ABC News in 2011:

    Elizabeth Warren Once a Republican

    t turns out that Elizabeth Warren, the Massachusetts Senate candidate who has a special knack for agitating Republicans, used to be one of them.

    “I was a Republican, because I thought that those were the people who best supported markets. I think that is not true anymore,” said Elizabeth Warren in an interview with The Daily Beast. Warren, who has made Bay State and national Democrats swoon since she entered the race to challenge Republican Scott Brown in 2012, was 46 when she made the conscious decision to dabble in Democratic politics, according to the interview. The interview also said that she first resisted the urge to get involved with politics but then changed her mind after serving on a panel that was tasked with recommending reforms to the bankruptcy laws.

    “I can’t just leave this to people who are going to wreck the lives of millions of American families if they get the chance,” said Warren as part of the Daily Beast interview.

    Warren first gained national notoriety for grilling Treasury Secretary Timothy Geither while serving on the congressional TARP oversight panel in 2009 and gained further notoriety among Republicans for helping to create the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

    She recently agitated Republicans for suggesting that businesses have a responsibility for paying it forward to future generations.

    Other famous party switchers include Republican President Reagan, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.” – source, https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/elizabeth-warren-once-a-republican

    DCSCA (75d97f)

  17. @14. Nic: I’m pro-choice, which means that I think a woman should have the right to an abortion if she wants one and she shouldn’t have an abortion if she doesn’t want one.

    That seems quite rational to me and I completely agree. Just because there a right to have one doesn’t mean you must exercise that right; it’s a freedom of choice. Abortion, in of itself, has little meaning to me as an issue other than being cultural crabgrass in the lawn of a house on fire. But any center offering council and alternatives seems quite reasonable; I’ve never understood why such fierce angst flames over the issue of a the right to a freedom of choice. Because in the end, it’s a personal choice to make. It’s what the arc of history of the Republic has been all about- expanding rights to the citizenry.

    DCSCA (75d97f)

  18. Your full comments on the matter of abortion:

    My argument is very simple. The person who owns the body decides if they use it as a life support system. It makes no claims about the morality of that decision one way or another. It makes no claims of when the personhood of that other does or does not start. It makes no quibbles about how careful they were or were not about birthcontrol or the long term status of their relationship (maybe they were on the Pill and married, but they already have 4 kids and dad just lost his job, maybe it was a casual hookup with no birthcontrol at all and they only know eachother’s first names or tinder handle, this doesn’t matter for my argument). The person who owns the body should not be forced by someone else to be a life support system for another person. The person who owns the body decides.

    You have attempt to argue arguments I’m not making. You’ve attempted to argue from emotion. You’ve attempted to argue from a moral/religious point.

    It’s very simple.

    I am arguing (with a full understanding that if they do not, the other person will die) that a person should not be forced against their will to use their body as a life support system and you are arguing that they should be forced against their will to use themselves as a life support system in order to save the other person because their loss of that choice is worth it to keep someone else alive. I don’t think the government should be able to tell a woman how to use or not use her uterus. You believe the government should, in order to save someone else.

    A very utilitarian and dehumanizing view because at a certain point in time, there is another person involved, which clearly doesn’t matter to you. As our host pointed out:

    It’s very common for them to refer to abortion as nothing more than an uncomplicated personal health care decision. It is a health care decision, but a unique one that involves another life. The Twitter leftists act like the baby is nothing more than an unwanted parasite, as if the mother played no part in its having arrived in her body. In their view, she just had bad luck, like getting struck by lightning.

    The most obvious way to demonstrate the flaw in this position is to realize that, if you take it seriously, the mother may have a doctor stab her perfectly healthy baby in the head with a pair of scissors a week before the normal delivery date. She may do this on a whim, simply because she does not wish to continue “hosting” the “parasite” in her body.

    So, while you claim to be pro-choice, and in some respects you are, you are also most certainly pro-abortion, in an unlimited timeframe, it would appear.

    Dana (1225fc)

  19. I’m sorry that my knowledge gained from people who have actually used or volunteered at crisis pregnancy centers differs from the PR crisis pregnancy centers might give to someone who calls to ask journalistic type questions of them, but that is my knowledge, gained from talking to women who have been faced with an unexpected pregnancy and attempted to gain support from a pregnancy crisis center but had to go elsewhere for help in having their babies. I find it disingenuous for many of them to advertise themselves as useful to women experiencing a crisis pregnancy when they are not particularly useful. As I said in my comment (I think you may have only read the first sentence or two), I wish there were more crisis pregnancy centers that provided a full range of non-abortion pregnancy support, but there aren’t.

    But here’s the thing, nic: I could counter that with the testimony from women that I have spoken to who have gone to crisis centers, decided to have their babies, and counted the center’s help as invaluable in having goten them through the most difficult of circumstances. So they are useful. Perhaps not in every instance, but certainly enough so that there have not been any significant closures due to a lack of business. If there were no demand, they would be shuttered left and right.

    Dana (1225fc)

  20. Dana – This amused me in 2020, and may amuse you today. On Super Tuesday, Eliabeth Warren came in fourth in the state where she was born, Oklahoma, fourth in the state where she spent her early adult life, Texas, and third in her current home, Massachusetts. To know her isn’t to love her. Even for most Democrats.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  21. “In Massachusetts right now, those crisis pregnancy centers that are there to fool people who are looking for pregnancy termination help outnumber true abortion clinics by 3 to 1. We need to shut them down here in Massachusetts, and we need to shut them down all around the country. You should not be able to torture a pregnant person like that.,”

    I would think that there is a freedom of speech issue here. Is she arguing that failure to abort is medical malpractice? If not, I can’t see where she thinks government has the power to do that.

    I worry a great deal about Warren as a president. She clearly views the Constitution as an obstacle to be finessed and Rights as something to be ignored, or used as clubs, on her way to What. She. Wants.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  22. As far as “mostly useless” is concerned, what use is Planned Parenthood without legal abortion? It’s the only service they offer that a woman’s GP or OB/GYN might not provide.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  23. @Dana@17, 18 You missed my later comment to Kevin that I was open to the idea that at some point a woman had defacto made a decision to keep or not keep her pregnancy.

    If you continued to read through my comment, you would’ve noticed that I didn’t say they were all useless, I said that many were. I also commented on there being ones that were full service. You suggested that I’d never talked to a woman who had used one when I had and had put notice of that in my 1st comment as well. Many crisis pregnancy centers don’t operate based on income at all, but are supported by charities, donations, and non-profits, which is why so many can’t afford to hire a doctor or nurse to work in them. “The Sacramento Life Center relies exclusively on the support of compassionate people like you.” “Assure is funded by individuals in the Omaha area that care about women.” AIM women’s center in Steubenville OH also makes most of their budget through fundraising (Francisican university also makes a donation to them). That’s why they don’t close regardless of how much business they do.

    Nic (896fdf)

  24. If Warren sounds like she’s gone completely off the deep end, it’s because she’s in such a deep blue hivemind that she can’t process the reality that she’s part of the small, 20% minority that supports abortion on demand all the way up until the infant’s feet emerge from the magic birth canal trip. Like a lot of leftists, she pushes the “but the majority supports Roe vs. Wade!” line without reconciling that with the fact that most people also support having at least some restrictions on the practice.

    The assertion that pregnancy crisis centers are “useless” is just sour grapes, and the assertion that they “torture” women is deliberately malicious.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  25. If there were no demand, they would be shuttered left and right.

    Dana (1225fc) — 7/13/2022 @ 5:12 pm

    Not necessarily. Depending on how much organizations fund-raise (whether pro-life or pro-choice), these places (pregnancy crisis centers, Planned Parenthood) can afford to stay in business, even with few customers. They can even use the threat of closing down to raise more money.

    I don’t care for either of these cloistered, echo-chamber camps.

    norcal (da5491)

  26. @kevin@21 There’s nothing stopping any other clinical group from providing full women’s health services and STD treatment to (mostly) low income patients. If there were more, planned parenthood would probably be less popular.

    Nic (896fdf)

  27. So, looked around here in the ABQ, NM area. There are 4 abortion clinics and 3 others that are “virtual.” There is a religious-based Coalition that ONLY provides funds to pay for an abortion.

    And there are 5 actual pregnancy crisis centers, one within a short walk from my home.

    There is also a midwifery and a number of hospital chains.

    Elective abortion is legal in New Mexico throughout pregnancy, and one clinic advertises they perform third-trimester abortions through at least week 32. It is known that some of these have been elective.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  28. Does anyone remember how the pro-abortion crowd used to go on about how the anti-abortion crowd claimed to care about the baby and the woman but really didn’t? That they weren’t interested in doing anything to help them before or after the baby was born? Yea, team abortion was lying about that but just for good measure they’re going to shut any of that down and hope no one remembers them lying about it.

    This is a bit like how orphanages had to be shutdown because they were just horrible and they replaced that with a foster care system that isn’t better, and in many cases is worse, because hey it’s better to just kill these babies instead of deal with all of these other systems.

    frosty (d10448)

  29. If there were more, planned parenthood would probably be less popular.

    Despite what they “offer” they really only do 3 things: birth control dispensary, pregnancy testing and abortion. Birth control options are available from any OB/GYN — presumably women of child-bearing age cand find one in any town. Pregnancy testing can be obtained at Walmart. Only abortion is so disreputable that most providers want nothing to do with it. Enter Planned Parenthood.

    I know that their PR says otherwise, but it’s funny what you choose to believe and what you are skeptical about.

    Now, I am not against abortion. Not even elective abortion early in pregnancy. There are situations throughout pregnancy that can require one, too. But absent a damn good reason, I want it limited.

    However, I view the idea that “until the baby is born it’s not human” to be reprehensible, immoral and damnable, and it completely colors my view of anyone stating it.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  30. Not as crazy as this but along the same lines. There are people on various support group forums for a variety of the various health conditions, other than abortion, were methotrexate is prescribed spreading fear that it will be outlawed because it’s an abortion drug.

    What sort of person thinks trolling for votes by scaring people with cancer or debilitating auto-immune conditions is a good idea?

    frosty (d10448)

  31. @kevin@27 It’s very hard to find doctors that take medicaid, but planned parenthood takes medicaid and even the non-insured at a sliding scale cost. They also do a lot of STD testing and treatment (for men as well as women) and general women’s health treatments like paps.

    Nic (896fdf)

  32. However, I view the idea that “until the baby is born it’s not human” to be reprehensible, immoral and damnable, and it completely colors my view of anyone stating it.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 7/13/2022 @ 5:59 pm

    Agreed. I’m pro hurry-up-and-decide.

    norcal (da5491)

  33. What absolutely frosts me about this whole debate is that the pro-abortion camp is constantly saying that late-term abortions are almost never done, and yet any rule that would limit ELECTIVE abortions to the first trimester gets them going to war.

    A number of times Congress was poised to pass, and have the president sign, a national abortion access law. But the Planned Parenthood lobbyists demanded that elective abortion be allowed throughout pregnancy. The votes were never there for that.

    So, when they say “oh, nobody has an late-term abortion by choice” know that their bottom line is this that elective abortions in the third trimester be allowed. Why are they holding 10s of millions of women hostage to something that “never happens”?

    Because it does.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  34. it completely colors my view of anyone stating it.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 7/13/2022 @ 5:59 pm

    The mindset that enables this basically allows for a much different definition of human than I suspect you’d hold. That small clump of cells only grows into a larger clump that is simply a complex organic machine running a series of analog algorithms derived by chance and evolutionary pressure over time.

    frosty (d10448)

  35. @kevin@27 It’s very hard to find doctors that take medicaid

    In my state the three major chains (UNM, Presbyterian and Lovelace) take Medicaid. Lovelace specializes in Women’s Health.

    In California, all UC hospitals (including the best hospital west of the Mississippi, UCLA) take Medicaid throughout their massive systems. You can’t swing a cat in Los Angeles without hitting a UCLA medical facility. Literally thousands of doctors.

    Now, Medicaid doesn’t cover elective abortions (but does cover medically necessary ones by court order. Planned Parenthood does not offer free abortions to Medicaid patients or anyone else, so I wonder what your point is.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  36. Warren appears to be a little insane.

    Colonel Haiku (cb037e)

  37. @34 Just a little? It amazes me how smart people like Warren and Cruz go absolutely bonkers when they taste power.

    norcal (da5491)

  38. Typical masshole, Col.

    mg (8cbc69)

  39. @34 There’s where she’s fooling you. She’s not insane. On the Cipolla chart she’s far into the category of people who cause harm to other people for their own benefit. That she’s knowingly doing it just makes her evil.

    frosty (d10448)

  40. could someone fish 26 out of moderation. too many links probably.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  41. That she’s knowingly doing it just makes her evil.

    Or maybe just a sociopath.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  42. There’s nothing stopping any other clinical group from providing full women’s health services and STD treatment to (mostly) low income patients. If there were more, planned parenthood would probably be less popular.
    Nic (896fdf) — 7/13/2022 @ 5:47 pm

    right, there’s nothing stopping them

    other than that they don’t get millions of $$ in taxpayer funding like planned parenthood does

    JF (4df83d)

  43. @39 Sociopath is a 50 cent word but both cover the same ground.

    frosty (d10448)

  44. Done, Kevin M.

    Dana (1225fc)

  45. For those who said the 10 year old pregnant raped girl in ohio was propaganda. The rapist has just been arrested.

    asset (286712) — 7/13/2022 @ 3:04 pm

    You should know better than most that doesn’t mean it wasn’t, and still isn’t, propaganda.

    Rolling Stone pulled a funny in their headline on this one. Their headline when you search for the story is “Ohio Arrest Made After Right-Wingers Cast Doubt On Story”. To which I say, thank you right-wingers. The title of the article on the site page is different because they cover this bit of propaganda in the article.

    frosty (d10448)

  46. So, is the belief that crisis pregnancy centers are useless a viable reason to shut them down by the strong arm of the government? Again, if they are useless, why does Warren or anyone else care? If the pro-choice/pro-aborts want the government to keep out of the abortion-decision-making business, shouldn’t they also want government keep its hands out of existing pregnancy crisis centers that are there to provide help and support to women who have opted to keep their babies?

    It’s stunning that this is what Warren and her ilk find offensive as they fight like crazy to keep the right to an abortion through the ninth month. In what other segment of society do we cheer on the power of the government being used to shut down non-profits because someone finds it offensive?

    Dana (1225fc)

  47. @46 They don’t believe they are useless. That’s just a deflection. They care because they might reduce abortions and because they are evidence against the claim that anti-abortion people don’t really care about women and babies. It’s a talking point that needs defending. They absolutely want the government involved in this decision making process. But only in a very specific way.

    It’s has nothing to do with non-profits or finding it offensive. Until you realize this is as much a religious dogma than any sort of rational concern about women’s health you’ll keep being surprised.

    frosty (d10448)

  48. @JF@42 They too would get funding if they provided care.

    @kevin@33 I have concerns that abortion due to fetal abnormality would be classed as an “elective abortion”, which we can already see happening in several states where the laws only allow for the life or the health of the mother. I don’t think a person should be forced to care a pregnancy where it is very very very likely that they will miscarry late or the baby will be stillborn.

    @kevin@35 only nominally. If you’ve ever tried to help anyone find a doctor and get an appointment who has medicaid (or medical) at anywhere other than an urgent care center (which are walkins), options are limited -no, we aren’t taking any new medical patients right now- and it often takes months (at least it did when I was helping make appointments for clients back in the early 2000s).

    @Dana@46 Personally I’d just regulate them more (I know, I know, more regulation is terrible) because IMO what they are currently presenting is a dishonest front. I’d require that they have a medical professional on staff (either a nurse or a doctor) who provides actual medical care and if that professional isn’t a doctor, have a relationship with a women’s health clinic that they can refer people to. They should also have a licensed counseling professional and a knowledgeable person on staff who can help people to apply for benefits, not just hand them a pamphlet about where to go.

    @frosty@47 No, frosty, I literally think that many of them are useless and in some cases annoying (follow-up telephone call spam) and possibly fraudulent (though not in the legal sense since they aren’t actually taking their client’s money, only wasting their time).

    Nic (896fdf)

  49. In what other segment of society do we cheer on the power of the government being used to shut down non-profits because someone finds it offensive?

    Well, there is a segment that wants to shutter funding PBS… and Gingrich wanted to shutter ‘non-profit’ NASA in the early ’90s and has relentlessly gone after the USPS.

    DCSCA (75d97f)

  50. For those who said the 10 year old pregnant raped girl in ohio was propaganda. The rapist has just been arrested.
    asset (286712) — 7/13/2022 @ 3:04 pm

    according to reports, rape wasn’t his first offense

    he crossed the border illegally first, and stayed illegally, but is that really an offense in biden world?

    was he granted asylum? was he a catch and release?

    was he flown to Ohio in one of biden’s migrant charters?

    so many questions, that the media won’t ask

    JF (1276f3)

  51. This lashing out at any group that promotes alternatives to abortion is an odd choice. If there are women out there who find it valuable to talk things through with someone, then what is the harm? The worst that happens is she doesn’t like what she hears, she leaves, and never has to come back and she only wasted an hour or so. It’s her choice. There must be more at play.

    The whole question comes down to changing hearts and providing incentives to take the baby to term. The reality is that in some European countries, 90% of abortions are pharmaceutical and happen in the first 12 weeks. In the US, over half are performed with pills. So the good news is that hangars and black market surgeries are likely a thing largely of the past. Of course, going out to get an abortion might only involve going to the mailbox. Weird cases will remain tragic for all.

    Like trying to erase teenage sex, banning abortion doesn’t address changing women’s hearts…and doesn’t make the physical, emotional, and social costs of unplanned pregnancies go away. Maybe it removes it from public view….no abortion mills in your state, but what is the response when there’s still a few hundred thousand abortions going on in the privacy of someone’s bedroom with a two dose sequence of pills? Is the future trying to intercept these unmarked boxes or something more aggressive? Not everyone sees a preganancy as a blessing or a miracle. We’re powerfully drawn to sex and contraception is not fool proof. Are we positioned to persuade women or are we pushing them away?

    AJ_Liberty (c82e21)

  52. Nic,

    I’m glad you qualified your comment with an IMO.

    Also, IMO, the dishonesty of Planned Parenthood and abortion is conveniently ignored by those in your camp. And so it goes.

    Dana (1225fc)

  53. “according to reports, rape wasn’t his first offense

    he crossed the border illegally first, and stayed illegally, but is that really an offense in biden world?

    was he granted asylum? was he a catch and release?

    was he flown to Ohio in one of biden’s migrant charters?

    so many questions, that the media won’t ask”

    Anyone who read the article would know that the guy has been living in Columbus for the last 7 years. So it’s true that the media will probably not be asking many of these questions.

    Davethulhu (0b1e86)

  54. Davethulhu (0b1e86) — 7/13/2022 @ 8:49 pm

    oh ok, like it makes a difference if we swap out biden for obama and pose the same questions

    JF (b914d1)

  55. “oh ok, like it makes a difference if we swap out biden for obama and pose the same questions”

    It does make the questions even more disingenuous.

    Davethulhu (0b1e86)

  56. Here’s a question:

    i’m wondering which will happen first

    – putin throws in the towel in ukraine
    – trump gets indicted
    – the rapist of the ten year-old is identified
    – the Reds win the world series

    predictions?

    JF (f29a4e) — 7/10/2022 @ 1:25 pm

    Which was your prediction?

    Davethulhu (0b1e86)

  57. It does make the questions even more disingenuous.
    Davethulhu (0b1e86) — 7/13/2022 @ 9:01 pm

    why?

    JF (b914d1)

  58. Which was your prediction?
    Davethulhu (0b1e86) — 7/13/2022 @ 9:03 pm

    only those who played along get to ask

    do you know why it took more than a week to identify the rapist?

    JF (b914d1)

  59. @56 Given the facts we had the Reds winning the series was the more likely choice

    frosty (d10448)

  60. I have concerns that abortion due to fetal abnormality would be classed as an “elective abortion”, which we can already see happening in several states where the laws only allow for the life or the health of the mother.

    This IS an issue, and I’m not sure how I feel about that. What is an “abnormality”? Anencephaly? Fine. It’s not even human. Down’s syndrome? Hmmm. Wrong sex? Wrong race?

    I would rather rely on some defined rule than allow elective abortions for things that aren’t deformities.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  61. There are some people who, faced with a premature birth and fearing special needs, would choose to abort right at the point of delivery. That would be perfectly legal in my state.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  62. “do you know why it took more than a week to identify the rapist?”

    Ask the police. Anyone who read the article would know that the mother reported the rape on June 22, yet somehow the Ohio AG wasn’t aware of it two days ago.

    Davethulhu (0b1e86)

  63. what is the response when there’s still a few hundred thousand abortions going on in the privacy of someone’s bedroom with a two dose sequence of pills?

    AJ_Liberty (c82e21) — 7/13/2022 @ 8:23 pm

    AJ, my response is that it’s none of my business. People who get all lathered up over first trimester abortions are the ultimate Karens.

    norcal (da5491)

  64. Warren is trying to keep AOC from completely dominate the democratic party left ;but is failing.

    asset (888096)

  65. @64 That’s unfortunate for Warren. So, AOC is your choice for dominatrix? That checks out.

    frosty (d10448)

  66. Dana,
    My understanding of the good faith critique of crisis pregnancy centers is that they promise more support then they will deliver and persuade women whose lives will be negatively impacted by having a baby away from the abortion they could have obtained before the baby became a living person. So in this view crisis pregnancy centers aren’t giving women hope. They’re deceiving women about what help is available and what the real consequences of their choices will be.

    This critique is premised on the idea that life begins after conception. It’s also speech. Pure speech. Might be deceptive speech in the critics eyes but still speech.

    Whether I extend that faith to Warren doesn’t change the fact that a US Senator claiming a legal enterprise, that in it’s worst form is engaged in only speech, should be shut down is deeply authoritarian. Warren regularly makes statements indicating that she wants to use the power of the state to order the world the way she wants it and punish those who oppose her. She’s a left wing populist with no interest in limited government. As I said during the 2020 primary, I couldn’t bring myself to vote for Warren. She shared many of Trumps flaws without any of his virtues to balance them out.

    Our current systems and norms restrain her, and others like her. My fear is that we’re going to enter a cycle of Republicans/Democrats continually violating those norms until we’re at the point where it’s perfectly normal for a democratic administration to use the power of the state to shut crisis pregnancy centers down. Just as it was normal for the outgoing republican administration to force employers not to provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits.

    There are valid reasons and areas where public policy interact with personal decisions and multiple valid goals need to be balanced. But our society will be worse when the concept of limited government stops being a factor to consider.

    That’s the future Warren and others of her ilk want. One where limits on the power of the state, and the people who lead it, aren’t considered a priority. A future where being punished for doing or saying something that offends the values of an elected official are punished.

    You wrote a very good post about crisis pregnancy centers and i enjoyed reading it. It was informative. Thank you.

    Time123 (984181)

  67. Time123 (984181) — 7/14/2022 @ 8:16 am

    Just as it was normal for the outgoing republican administration to force employers not to provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits.

    How did republicans force employers to not provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits? I’m not familiar with this and I like to learn more about it.

    frosty (c17c75)

  68. Of course, going out to get an abortion might only involve going to the mailbox.

    Unsupervised medical abortions are dangerous. The drugs cause something akin to a miscarriage, and may result in an incomplete discharge of the fetus and placenta, requiring prompt medical attention and possible surgical intervention. This is more likely the later one goes in pregnancy.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  69. Time123 (984181) — 7/14/2022 @ 8:16 am

    My understanding of the good faith critique of crisis pregnancy centers is that they promise more support then they will deliver and persuade women whose lives will be negatively impacted by having a baby away from the abortion they could have obtained before the baby became a living person. So in this view crisis pregnancy centers aren’t giving women hope. They’re deceiving women about what help is available and what the real consequences of their choices will be.

    Arguably, this can be said of abortion providers as well. Abortion advocates are generally against pre-abortion counseling and are reluctant to even engage the issue of post-abortion counseling. The harm that’s being done isn’t just to the unborn child.

    frosty (c17c75)

  70. Warren is trying to keep AOC from completely dominate the democratic party left ;but is failing.

    Warren needs to be more strident and radical, I guess.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  71. @67

    My fear is that we’re going to enter a cycle of Republicans/Democrats continually violating those norms until we’re at the point where it’s perfectly normal for a democratic administration to use the power of the state to shut crisis pregnancy centers down. Just as it was normal for the outgoing republican administration to force employers not to provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits.

    The point I was trying t make is that a cycle of authoritarianism where it’s normal for each side to punish their enemies would be bad.

    Hope this clears up what what I was attempting to say.

    Time123 (ae7b06)

  72. How did republicans force employers to not provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits? I’m not familiar with this and I like to learn more about it.

    Indeed. Unless we are talking about the W administration, I thought that Trump was fairly neutral on SSM. As far as abortion is concerned, Medicaid doesn’t cover elective abortions, by specific law, and there is really no way that a private medical plan can be coerced into anything by the government.

    I note that California will be spending Medicaid money on illegal immigrants next year, so there’s really not a lot of rules there.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  73. The point I was trying t make is that a cycle of authoritarianism where it’s normal for each side to punish their enemies would be bad.

    What cycle? At some point we just get an Emperor and the cycle is over.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  74. Warren needs to be more strident and radical, I guess.

    I think she’s fighting an uphill battle.

    She’s never going to look as good in spiked thigh boots. So, the wing of the left into that will always pick AOC.

    She could try a uniform. That worked for HRC when she went with the North Korean dictator fall line.

    She could try spitting and shouting more but Bernie has that covered.

    She could try going full Che and pose with an assault rifle but people might think she was a Republican. She’d need to do it next to a ditch or a bullet riddled wall.

    frosty (c17c75)

  75. #72

    Speaking professionally, states could mandate that an insured plan cover a specific procedure (including abortion) if the insurance company issues policies from its state. Matter of fact, a number of states mandate that insurance policies not cover abortion, or do so thrugh a special, independently elected rider.

    ACA (aka Obamacare) provides precedent for the federal government to require that a medical plan cover certain oprions. (For example, preventive care must be covered at 100%, per ACA.)

    Appalled (fa627b)

  76. Hope this clears up what what I was attempting to say.

    Time123 (ae7b06) — 7/14/2022 @ 10:15 am

    That part was clear and that wasn’t what I was asking about. I emphasized the part I was referring to.

    Just as it was normal for the outgoing republican administration to force employers not to provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits.

    When was it normal? Which outgoing administration? And what did they do to accomplish that?

    frosty (c17c75)

  77. Let me try one more re-wording.

    My fear is that we’re going to enter a cycle of Republicans/Democrats continually violating those norms until we’re at the point where it’s perfectly normal for a democratic administration to use the power of the state to shut crisis pregnancy centers down. Just as in the new and to-be-avoided-cycle-that-i-fear-we’re-moving-towards it would have been normal for the outgoing republican administration to force employers not to provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits.

    Time123 (984181)

  78. Time:

    Your #66 is inaccurate regarding what the trump administration did regarding benefit plans of private employers. Same sex spouses were covered under benefit plans to the same extent as opposite sex partners. Coverage of domestic partners continued to be complicated because the federal tax system does not recognize a domestic partner as a dependent.

    Appalled (812750)

  79. @77 Here’s a rewording, in this case to fix verb tense and some other issues, that doesn’t change the underlying meaning:

    My fear is that we’re going to enter a cycle of Republicans/Democrats continually violating those norms until we’re at the point where it’s perfectly normal for a democratic administration to use the power of the state to shut crisis pregnancy centers down. Just as in a new and to-be-avoided-cycle-that-i-fear-we’re-moving-towards it would be normal for an outgoing republican administration to force employers to not provide benefits that covered abortion or SS partner benefits.

    What you did wasn’t a rewording. You changed a statement that something had already happened into a statement about something that might happen.

    frosty (c17c75)

  80. Frosty, thank you for helping me edit my comment to clearly express what I was trying to say.

    Time123 (984181)

  81. What’s all this than!

    Colonel Haiku (aca3fc)

  82. Warren needs to be more strident, radical, and a little more insane. You can see the Manson Lamps effect in her eyes, so she’s almost there.

    Colonel Haiku (aca3fc)

  83. Nothing will change; the same folks who seek abortions will find a way; like electricity, the need will follow the path of least resistance. Two losers here; the American people, who’ve had a constitutional right rescinded- the first time over the arc of the history of the Republic; and the SCOTUS, which has destroyed its secularism and cheapened its own image to the point of being chased out of restaurants and wokring in an edifice surrounded by security fences and armed guards. Until they find the leaker, everything they say and do is a punchline.

    Next time you’re in a gas line or traffic jam on your way to work in a sweltering summer heatwave, looking forward to that two week vacation you slave all year to earn, ask yourself why the hell the lazy-azzed, be-robed bureaucrats, whose salaries you pay, take 3 months off for vacation. Because bureaucrats can, of course. You work for them; they don’t work for you. 😉

    DCSCA (cffc86)

  84. R.I.P. Ivana Trump.

    DCSCA (cffc86)

  85. who’ve had a constitutional right rescinded- the first time over the arc of the history of the Republic

    This is laughably ahistorical. The arc of the Republic is toward centralized control and less individual autonomy.

    Filburn had the right to grow his own wheat on his private property until he didn’t. Farmers had the right to make booze until they didn’t. People could buy machine guns until they couldn’t (yes, those were perfectly legal). People could buy things with cocaine in it until they couldn’t. Men used to have a right to exclusive access to the voting booth until they didn’t. People had a right to own slaves until they didn’t.

    Rescinding rights isn’t a new thing. But let me guess, except it is?

    frosty (90ebb8)

  86. Ivana Trump? Jackals pouncing in 3…2…1

    Colonel Haiku (e4a5a4)

  87. @85. Except it’s not. but you’ll see that someday… when the next right tumbles; and the next a little easier… revealing so-called ‘American Exceptionalism’ decidedly unexceptional for an empire in decline.

    DCSCA (cffc86)

  88. @86. CNN’s obit did; she got Blitzered.

    DCSCA (cffc86)

  89. AJ, my response is that it’s none of my business. People who get all lathered up over first trimester abortions are the ultimate Karens.

    norcal (da5491) — 7/14/2022 @ 12:16 am

    After writing this, I realized it was too harsh.

    I should have said that people who seek to outlaw first trimester abortions are overreaching.

    norcal (da5491)

  90. The public supports elective abortions within the first trimester,. They oppose them after that, and that oppostion increases with gestation time.

    Many pollsters only ask a yes/no question on “abortion” conflating both gestation time and reason. If you asked “Should abortion on demand be allowed near the end of a full-term pregnancy?” about 80% opposed. If you asked “Should all abortions be banned always?” you’d also get about 80% opposed.

    Somewhere between these two is the answer. Decisions of this sort are what legislatures do, and what courts are particularly bad at.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  91. @90 Kevin, nuanced positions like that aren’t as satisfying as being absolute on the issue.

    Being all full of certitude, and seeing it as a cut and dried question, is irresistibly comforting to so many people.

    norcal (da5491)

  92. Re: Ivana Trump: The way the family (and also Donald Trump, separately) came out with statements so quickly argues that her death must have been expected to them. She died in her apartment but n cause of death has not been given.

    Trump offered her the job of Ambassador to the zech Republic some years ago, but she turned it down.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2017/10/05/ivana-trump-turned-down-ambassadorship-offer-from-her-ex-i-have-a-perfect-life

    Maybe she already had health problems.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  93. National Right to Life lawyer: The raped 10-year-old in Indiana should be required to carry to term

    If abortion galvanizes Democratic turnout this fall, this will be the reason. Not Roe being overturned — that’s a serious wound to liberals, but wounds heal in time.

    The thing that’ll keep them engaged is GOP legislators picking at the scab by being uncompromising on edge cases like the horror in Indiana.

    Jim Bopp of National Right to Life is drafting model legislation for states that want to ban abortion and *is* seriously reckoning with it. His answer is that pro-life means pro-life, and therefore a child in the womb shouldn’t have to pay with death for the sins of its father. That’s a principled position. But I’m guessing it would be on the short end of an 85/15 or so split among the general population when polled on the matter.

    I foresee a vote on whether raped children should be forced to carry their rapists’ babies to term coming soon to the House and Senate floors.
    ………
    …….A young child who didn’t consent, and couldn’t have lawfully consented, to sex would be compelled by the state to undergo an ordeal that even adult women find difficult. The law would extend by many months the horrendous trauma visited upon her by her attacker. God only knows what sort of physical and psychological disabilities a 10-year-old would experience while trying to carry to term.

    An abortion ban with a rape exception would have permitted the girl to abort in her home state instead of having to travel, but Ohio’s six-week ban doesn’t make exceptions for rape. It does make exceptions for life endangerment or severely compromised physical health, which arguably would have protected an Ohio doctor who had performed the procedure on her. But everything depends on the word “arguably.” ……
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  94. Jim Bopp of National Right to Life

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/14/2022 @ 3:10 pm

    Hail, Bopp!

    norcal (da5491)

  95. He’s as ridiculous as Fauxcahontas.

    norcal (da5491)

  96. Dana,
    My understanding of the good faith critique of crisis pregnancy centers is that they promise more support then they will deliver and persuade women whose lives will be negatively impacted by having a baby away from the abortion they could have obtained before the baby became a living person. So in this view crisis pregnancy centers aren’t giving women hope. They’re deceiving women about what help is available and what the real consequences of their choices will be.

    Time123, I don’t really have anything more to say about the subject but I will note that I haven’t seen a “good faith critique” of the centers on this board. Additionally, an honest good faith critique would acknowledge that if a woman is persuaded at a crisis center to have her baby, then a woman would be persuaded by Planned Parenthood to abort the baby. Neither view allows for a woman to make up her own mind. Your view that crisis centers aren’t giving women hope is predicated on the belief that abortion will fix the situation (if they get it in time). And that just isn’t an across-the-board truth. As I also posted from actual people who work at actual centers, their expressed goal is to be there for those who want the help they offer. Perhaps you missed it, but they are upfront from the get-go that they do not do abortions, nor do they refer out. At that point, the woman makes a decision to stay or go.

    Dana (1225fc)

  97. Dana, my comment was not well written.

    I wasn’t trying to attack Crisis Pregnancy Centers.

    My main point was that if we assume the critique of Crisis Pregnancy Centers is valid then they’re engaged in speech. Warren’s attack as a sitting US senator is an attack on a lawful enterprise for their speech by a high ranking government official, which is authoritarian.

    I didn’t intend to attach crisis pregnancy centers. My take, after reading your well researched article, is that it’s people doing the best they can to prevent abortions and help pregnant women.

    Time123 (c7326c)

  98. Excellent post, Dana. And your additional comments as well.

    There are pregnancy crisis centers which reach out with billboards and bus stop shelter ads by our local high school: “Pregnant? Afraid? You are not alone!” I think giving those girls just someone to talk to is a wonderful thing, and there is not even 1/1024th bit of good faith in the people who criticize it.

    nk (4a9d9b)

  99. Dana,

    How is this not a good faith critique?

    How about a pregnancy center with a neutral staff who ask the woman what she wants, and provides a referral to Planned Parenthood if the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy? And vice versa?

    Those would be places that could legitimately claim to help a woman, without trying to sway her one way or the other. What a radical concept.

    norcal (da5491) — 7/13/2022 @ 3:10 pm

    norcal (da5491)

  100. @92. Gild, glamour, glitz… Ivana, Helmsley, Steinbrenner, Billy Martin, Yogi…Steady Eddie Koch… Crazy Eddie’s… the shine of NYC 80’s is dying off, Sammy… but Reaganomics junk bond debt lives on! 😉

    DCSCA (20814a)

  101. republican indiana ag in a vindictive move is investigating dr. who reported 10 year old rape victim to see if she dotted all the i’s and crossed all the t’s on the reporting. AOC should tell biden that he should investigate every republican in indiana starting with their taxes.

    asset (a5df6f)

  102. @99 It seems like a good idea. Except that you’re describing google.

    To some degree I doubt good faith is something either side considers the other side capable of. This neutral position presumes that either decision is essentially the same. Do you want eggs and toast for breakfast or toast and eggs. For a pro-life person this neutral position you’re describing isn’t exactly neutral. It’s like having a suicide hotline that you call that will give you advice on ways to kill yourself if that’s what you really want to do.

    The other problem is that this presumes the woman knows what she wants. If she’s knows she wants an abortion, again there’s google. She doesn’t need to go to a counseling center to find a place to have an abortion.

    The point of a counseling center is to help women who don’t know what their options are other than to have an abortion. I know. It’s a radical concept.

    frosty (2e4675)

  103. Good points, frosty

    norcal (da5491)

  104. This idea that the pro-abortion crowd is now going to try to whine and complain about pregnancy centers being dishonest and unhelpful is just the latest in a long history of examples of how this entire movement is based on lies built on other lies.

    frosty (2e4675)

  105. Liberals whine and some times lie because they want to persuade instead of taking direct action. Biden was nominated and elected as a non threatening liberal democrat. Now the liberals demand action from this senile old fool while the left says to them what did you expect! Gavin newsom wants to run in 2024 as the tough guy who kicked biden out of the white house! Another wimp liberal corporate stooge.

    asset (a5df6f)

  106. Liberals whine and some times lie because they want to persuade instead of taking direct action.

    asset (a5df6f) — 7/14/2022 @ 11:21 pm

    Jettison persuasion in favor of direct action? Sounds like a great plan. I’m sure Mao and Lenin would approve.

    You are purposely sowing discord, just like a Russian troll. In fact, you are indistinguishable from one.

    norcal (da5491)

  107. @106 You missed a step; it’s persuade, if that doesn’t work lie, if that doesn’t work use force. It’s an understandable mistake since, on the abortion issue, persuading hasn’t been working for a long time.

    You’re right in a general sense that it’s not about persuading at all. It’s just about getting what they want by any means.

    frosty (2e4675)

  108. Reporter Presses Elizabeth Warren On Left-Wing Group Offering Bounties For SCOTUS Justices’ Locations

    Democratic Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren refused to say if a pro-organization offering a bounty to track down Supreme Court justices is “too far” Thursday.

    Shut DC Down, a left-leaning activist organization, vowed to Venmo anyone $50 for a “confirmed sighting” of one of the six conservative Supreme Court justices who rule to overturn Roe v. Wade and $200 if they were still at the sighting location 30 minutes later in a July 8 tweet.

    JF (bb5c20)

  109. Jettison persuasion in favor of direct action? Sounds like a great plan. I’m sure Mao and Lenin would approve.

    Pfft. Adams, Franklin and Jefferson, too.

    … and George III smiled.

    DCSCA (2ec47f)

  110. @108, more evidence of Warren’s authoritarianism.

    Time123 (ae7b06)

  111. @109, It is an abortion law problem. But that doesn’t mean its *only* and abortion law problem. Do you think a 10 year old whose 6-8 weeks pregnant should try to create a life and birth a baby?

    Time123 (ae7b06)

  112. The House is passing HR 8297, protecting the ability of women to travel out-of-state for abortion services. Only a handful of Republicans voted AYE. 223-205.

    Earlier a bill protecting abortion-on-demand until “viability” was passed on a party-line vote. I understand this one, but stopping women from traveling is a bridge too far, not to mention unconstitutional even under the “privileges or immunities” clause of the 14th Amendment.

    Then they went on to remove tariffs on imported baby formula by a near-unanimous vote.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  113. Time123 (ae7b06) — 7/15/2022 @ 8:14 am

    my point exactly

    but if you read the news, it is only an abortion law problem

    cuz the midterms are coming up

    JF (83f201)

  114. @114, It’s in the news because the recent SC decision allowed a bunch of horrible trigger laws that were passed as somewhat symbolic acts to come into play. And because this is a huge change in the law of the land. And because this exact topics; under what circumstances should abortion be legal, has become a open public policy question. Just to name some other reasons.

    The other aspect of this; should a grown man rape and impregnate a 10 year old girl isn’t a topic of much debate.

    So i don’t think this is just a play for the midterms. Besides, why would OH pass a law saying that a 10 year old rape victim has to bear her rapists child if they didn’t think people wanted that law. They, and their supporters, should be happy this is being publicized. Isn’t this the policy you wanted?

    Time123 (54a8a1)

  115. @115 The other aspect of this; should a grown man rape and impregnate a 10 year old girl isn’t a topic of much debate.

    is this the only other aspect of the story you can think of?

    c’mon, you’re a smart dude

    JF (83f201)

  116. Time123 (54a8a1) — 7/15/2022 @ 12:27 pm

    Besides, why would OH pass a law saying that a 10 year old rape victim has to bear her rapists child

    They didn’t actually pass that law. The law doesn’t even have that effect. Did you know that? It’s pretty easy to lookup.

    frosty (8b7ed9)

  117. Persuasion if it doesn’t work just whine and do nothing? Donor class says yes base says with reasonable people be reasonable and with unreasonable people be unreasonable. Libertarain conservative say their court of last resort is the supreme court. Establishment liberals say what ever the donor class wants. Left democrat base says direct action. Those who have nothing to lose have everything to gain. Conservative libertarians we have to keep things peaceful other wise wealthy ruling class caves into their demands. Demand peacefulness at all times. We don’t need mao or lenin. A gen. benjamin butler will do just fine.

    asset (1ed153)

  118. “They didn’t actually pass that law. The law doesn’t even have that effect. Did you know that? It’s pretty easy to lookup.”

    Here’s Popehat’s analysis. The tl;dr is that you’re wrong.

    https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1547760202295885824

    Quoted, the original thread he linked was deleted by its author after he dismantled it.

    You don’t even have to read the whole thing. The entire travesty rests on the magical thinking in this post — “of COURSE nobody would disagree that giving birth would cause impairment.” But that’s both wishful thinking and not the whole standard.
    The law doesn’t permit abortion if “golly gee we all figure there would be impairment.” The standard is incredibly strict and narrow. [excerpt of definition of impairment]
    Note how the risk has to be based on a medically diagnosed CONDITION. Is being a 10 year old a condition? If they meant that they would have put it in the statute.
    You could absolutely charge a doctor under this unless the 10-year-old had a distinct medical condition.
    The argument seems to be “ooh, you can trust the government, they’d never prosecute a 10 year old.” First, it’s the doctor being prosecuted — and ABSOLUTELY the government would do that, for votes and culture war points. I mean look at these a$$holes.
    Also, you might say “hey aren’t conservatives betraying their values by arguing we should just trust the government not to abuse power?” Of course they aren’t! They don’t have actual values. Just hate and lust for power. There’s nothing to betray.
    Again: people telling you the law permitted the abortion and that it would be legally safe to perform it are stupid or liars or both. Don’t trust them.”

    Davethulhu (0b1e86)

  119. @118 If the people took to “direct action” every time they didn’t get their way, we’d live in a country of pure chaos, followed very soon by a ruthless dictator who would quell the violence.

    Then you would have neither persuasion nor “direct action”.

    Have you ever changed your mind about anything as a result of reading this blog, asset, or are you just dead set on leftist revolution? You seem to repeat the same point about corporate party stooges, AOC, and the need to take it to the streets. We got it already.

    norcal (da5491)

  120. @119 The latest from the Ohio AG suggests he would disagree with Popehat. A basic reading of the law would seem to indicate that as well. I can understand that this might be a tricky legal issue to unwind but Popehat’s emotional analysis not withstanding I think there are more options for disagreeing than stupid or dishonest.

    On the other hand, some of the people spreading FUD don’t get to claim stupid.

    frosty (582534)

  121. nk @ 98,

    Thank you. I appreciate it.

    Dana (1225fc)

  122. Besides, why would OH pass a law saying that a 10 year old rape victim has to bear her rapists child if they didn’t think people wanted that law. They, and their supporters, should be happy this is being publicized. Isn’t this the policy you wanted?

    And then why would Ohio’s representatives in Congress — knowing all about the child traveling to Indiana — vote against a law that would uphold the child’s right to travel to Indiana?

    It’s time to stop posturing.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  123. “A basic reading of the law would seem to indicate that as well. ”

    Obviously not, or we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    One instance under which the law says abortions are allowed after six weeks is if there’s a “medically diagnosed condition that so complicates the pregnancy of the woman as to directly or indirectly cause the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function.”

    That sheds little light on how old mothers have to be under the law to face such risks, said Jason Sayat, a Columbus OB-GYN.

    “It states specifically ‘medically diagnosed condition’ and as far as I can tell, adolescent pregnancy is not a medically diagnosed condition that’s listed,” he said.

    Maria Phillis, a Northeast Ohio OB-GYN who is also a council chair with the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, explained that the law makes two types of exceptions for the health of the mother.

    One is an emergency: an imminent threat of death or severe, lasting health problems for the mother. Phillis said such a situation could include “somebody who’s imminently bleeding out on the table, or having a stroke or cardiac arrest — things that are like, imminently if I don’t do something right now, somebody’s going to suffer death or severe consequences.”

    Despite making the claims he did on Fox, Yost’s office didn’t answer Thursday when asked to explain how the risks faced by pregnant girls who are very young are legally distinguishable from those faced by other women. He also refused, as has Gov. Mike DeWine, to say at what age he believes adolescents should be required to have their rapists’ babies.

    https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/07/15/docs-dispute-ags-claim-that-ohio-law-allows-10-year-olds-to-get-abortions/

    Davethulhu (0b1e86)

  124. A state attorney general’s interpretation of a statute may be the only instance when acting according to a lawyer’s advice is a defense. Issued as a formal opinion, it is binding on the state, and on its highest courts.

    What’s frosting the abortion industry is not cases like the ten-year old’s. All the cases like it, across the whole country, would not support even one abortion clinic.

    No, what’s really frosting the abortion industry is the loss of their bread and butter. The day in and day out elective abortions which are their mainstay and their moneymaker.

    nk (51ae73)

  125. @124 I would suspect that Yost’s office isn’t answering that specific question because they’ve already said this has to be decided based on the facts specific to a case. After being told that someone demanding a specific age isn’t asking in good faith.

    Also, you’re drifting onto shaking ground claiming that obviously the propaganda you’re pushing has some validity because the propaganda is being pushed. If you’re claiming now that there’s a valid area of disagreement on what the law says you’re undermining Popehat’s claim that only the stupid or dishonest can have a different opinion.

    Have you read the law, and especially that section that he’s basing so much of this “condition” argument on?

    frosty (6844fa)

  126. Still waiting for Mayra Flores to tweet something along the lines of “we Latinos got tossed out the boat for some baby killers”

    urbanleftbehind (76c06d)

  127. “I would suspect that Yost’s office isn’t answering that specific question because they’ve already said this has to be decided based on the facts specific to a case.”

    So is he saying that doctors will need to consult with him to determine if an abortion is warranted?

    “After being told that someone demanding a specific age isn’t asking in good faith.”

    Insulting and ridiculous.

    “If you’re claiming now that there’s a valid area of disagreement on what the law says you’re undermining Popehat’s claim that only the stupid or dishonest can have a different opinion.”

    You’re the one claiming the law is crystal clear.

    “Have you read the law, and especially that section that he’s basing so much of this “condition” argument on?”

    Again, insulting.

    Here are the relevant parts:

    “Medical emergency” means a condition that in the physician’s good faith medical judgment, based upon the facts known to the physician at that time, so complicates the woman’s pregnancy as to necessitate the immediate performance or inducement of an abortion in order to prevent the death of the pregnant woman or to avoid a serious risk of the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman that delay in the performance or inducement of the abortion would create.

    Is a seven week pregnant 10 year old in need of an immediate abortion? Obviously not. She may not be in a state of “Medical emergency” until she’s about to deliver.

    “Serious risk of the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” means any medically diagnosed condition that so complicates the pregnancy of the woman as to directly or indirectly cause the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function. A medically diagnosed condition that constitutes a “serious risk of the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” includes pre-eclampsia, inevitable abortion, and premature rupture of the membranes, may include, but is not limited to, diabetes and multiple sclerosis, and does not include a condition related to the woman’s mental health.

    “Pregnant 10 year old” is not a listed condition. So, given the ambiguity, no physician is going to perform the abortion for this or any other unlisted condition without permission from the AG.

    Davethulhu (0b1e86)


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