Patterico's Pontifications

6/6/2022

Cheney to Trump Loyalists: To Embrace A Personality Cult Is Contrary To Everything Conservatives Believe

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:34 pm



[guest post by Dana]

The January 6 Committee will be holding its first of many committee hearings this Thursday night. Broadcast networks will be pre-empting regularly scheduled shows to carry it live. Except for Fox News. It will stick with its regular rotation of Laura Ingraham, Tucker Carlson, and Sean Hannity, and instead will carry the hearings on Fox Business Network.

Here is an excerpt of an interview with Rep. Liz Cheney on what to expect at the hearings, as well as her thoughts on the Republican Party at large:

CBS News’ Robert Costa asked the committee’s vice chair, Wyoming Rep. Liz Cheney, “Are you confident that what you have found as a committee will somehow grab the American people by the lapels and say, ‘Wake up: You have to pay attention’?”

“I am,” she replied, calling the insurrection “an ongoing threat.”

“You know, we are not in a situation where former President Trump has expressed any sense of remorse about what happened,” Cheney said. “We are in fact in a situation where he continues to use even more extreme language, frankly, than the language that caused the attack. And so, people must pay attention. People must watch, and they must understand how easily our democratic system can unravel if we don’t defend it.”

“We have too many people now in the Republican Party who are not taking their responsibilities seriously, and who have pledged their allegiance and loyalty to Donald Trump,” Cheney said. “I mean, it is fundamentally antithetical, it is contrary to everything conservatives believe, to embrace a personality cult. And yet, that is what so many in my party are doing today.”

Costa asked, “Is the Republican Party a personality cult?”

“I think that large segments of it have certainly become that.”

“A cult?”

“Yeah. I mean, I think there is absolutely a cult of personality around Donald Trump. And I think that, you know, the majority of Republicans across the country don’t want to see our system unravel. They understand how important it is to protect and defend the Constitution.”

Cheney said, “Let me say it this way: I have not learned anything that has made me less concerned.”

“Well, what’s made you more concerned?” asked Costa.

“Well, I think the extent, the expanse, how broad this multi-pronged effort was.”

“Was it a conspiracy?”

“I think certainly — I mean, look, if you look at the court filings …”

“But do you believe it was a conspiracy?”

“I do,” she replied. “It is extremely broad. It’s extremely well-organized. It’s really chilling.”

“Is this moment a moral test for the Republican Party?” asked Costa.

“Absolutely. No question,” she said. “And right now, we’re failing. You know, in my state, the state party chairman is a member of the Oath Keepers. He was here on January 6. He was here with a walkie-talkie in his hand on January 6. That is a mortal threat. And it is a moral test. We can’t fail that moral test. But there are too many right now in my party who are failing it.”

More at the link.

Clearly, Cheney is moving full-steam ahead in an effort to hold accountable any and all who are responsible for the insurrection of Jan. 6. And clearly, too, she is unwilling to abandon her integrity to bolster her chances to win the Wyoming primary. According to The Club for Growth, which is supporting Trump-backed Harriet Hageman, May 26 polling (done before Cheney officially entered the race) shows her lagging by 30 points. While some Republican members of Congress who made a stand against Trump retired rather than taking a beating at the polls, Cheney is in it until the end. Possibly an opening for a win could happen as a result of Republicans voting for her (but not saying it publicly for fear of criticism), along with Democrats who admire her courage and will register as Republicans to vote for her, and the real possibility that Republicans won’t collectively coalesce around one of her challengers. All together, that might open the door wide enough for a win.

It’s funny that a number of Wyoming Republicans who are voting for Hageman, are doing so because they accuse Cheney of being a “traitor”. A “traitor” to the Party is one thing, but a “traitor” to Donald Trump only confirms that there is and remains a sick cult of personality around the former president. On that, Cheney is absolutely right.

–Dana

196 Responses to “Cheney to Trump Loyalists: To Embrace A Personality Cult Is Contrary To Everything Conservatives Believe”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (1225fc)

  2. Stelter/Cheney/81 million/2024

    mg (8cbc69)

  3. I don’t even know what that means and why it matters.

    Dana (1225fc)

  4. Cheney to Trump Loyalists: To Embrace A Personality Cult Is Contrary To Everything Conservatives Believe

    Huh? Liz Cheney was a mere teenage in THE REAGAN ERA- a thriving conservative political cult. But then, at that age, her head was in another and no doubt familiar place… like Daddy Darth’s was during Vietnam: “I had other priorities in the ’60s than military service.” -Dick Cheney

    A number of presidents in American history have been noted by various historians as being supported by the effects of a cult of personality, among them… Ronald Reagan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cults_of_personality

    DCSCA (53e485)

  5. There are Trump supporters who have swallowed the KoolAid for sure, but many of them are supporting a movement that is much much larger than Trump, and will survive him, e.g. DeSantis. Telling them that they are simply cultists doesn’t make the impression you are hoping for.

    Trump is just the messenger. Some people support the message and will follow a better messenger.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  6. …she [Daughter Darth] is unwilling to abandon her integrity to bolster her chances to win the Wyoming primary

    You can’t abandon something you never had:

    Cheney Voted with Trump More Than His Closest Allies

    The Casper Star Tribune‘s report on Wyoming Republicans refusing to recognize Rep. Liz Cheney (R-WY) as a member of their party also notes that Cheney voted with Donald Trump on policy 93% of the time. “That’s a higher percentage than Rep. Jim Jordan, Rep. Elise Stefanik, Rep. Paul Gosar, Rep. Matt Gaetz and a number of other lawmakers who are seen as staunch Trump allies.”

    DCSCA (53e485)

  7. Trump is just the messenger.

    Trump is the Big Mac. He has two tiers of supporters. Those who gobble him up for the taste, and those who serve him up for the profit.

    nk (f80dc9)

  8. Yeah, nk, and when he’s gone the GOP will return to the good old days of offshoring and the corporate bigfooting of America.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  9. I’ll just follow up on my previous comment, thank you very much.

    Now the distinction between the two tiers may seem blurred. That’s because the best gold diggers know how to hide the commercial nature of the transaction.

    And Trump, himself, does not mind. He has been dealing with gold diggers since his father was renting escorts for him when he was in military school. He gets what he wants from them too. He does not wonder what the vintners buy that is one-half so precious as the stuff they sell. He enjoys the stroking store-bought though it might be.

    nk (f80dc9)

  10. And clearly, too, she is unwilling to abandon her integrity to bolster her chances to win the Wyoming primary

    the electorate just isn’t worthy

    JF (ef93d2)

  11. Broadcast networks will be pre-empting regularly scheduled shows to carry it live.

    well of course, cuz this is important to our democracy democrats

    not that anyone here could name a show they’re preempting

    JF (ef93d2)

  12. “But do you believe it was a conspiracy?”
    “I do,” she replied. “It is extremely broad. It’s extremely well-organized. It’s really chilling.”

    why are republicans such suckers for conspiracy theories?

    JF (ef93d2)

  13. Possibly an opening for a win could happen as a result of Republicans voting for her (but not saying it publicly for fear of criticism), along with Democrats who admire her courage and will register as Republicans to vote for her, and the real possibility that Republicans won’t collectively coalesce around one of her challengers. All together, that might open the door wide enough for a win.

    This is wishful thinking. I’m going to repeat something I said elsewhere: Cheney’s being used, and she’s too self-righteous to realize it. If Cheney really believes that she’s fighting some kind of battle that’s between Trump and the Constitution, she’s going to lose no matter how it plays out. She’s persona non grata among the Wyoming GOP, she’s down by 30 to Hageman, and if she’s actually giving the party’s voters that kind of ultimatum, she’s done. Kemp was smart enough to deflect off Trump’s criticism of him, and give Georgia GOP voters the impression that he didn’t take it personally–that his goal was serving Georgians, not getting in fights with Trump over some quixotic campaign “for the soul of ARE PARTY.”

    That’s not Cheney’s goal. She’s arrogant enough to believe that the GOP will somehow be “saved” if they put Trump in jail for treason, and she’ll waltz back in like a conquering hero. If she’s the nominee, she could very well lose from GOP voters who vote for the Democrat just to spite her (which is why Democrats will cross over to vote for her to begin with), assuming the Democrat runs a fairly milquetoast campaign, and not something crafted in the halls of the University of Wyoming. With just one representative, in a year where the Dems are looking to get shellacked, it won’t make a difference to them if it’s Hageman or the Dem nominee in Congress. They’ll just want her gone.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  14. More to the point, no one outside of media bobbleheads, political wonks, and the Boomers who still spend their evenings watching network TV are going to give a squirt about this right now. Not when gas is running $5 a gallon and the grocery bill went through the roof.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  15. And I know that the kids did not get new bicycles, Gameboys, and ice cream every day, when mommy dumped the biker and took up with the stoner, Kevin.

    nk (f80dc9)

  16. Fox’s top news anchors will be moved over to the Fox Business Network, and they will cover the hearing there.

    Oh… So Fox will be covering it.

    #potatohead

    BuDuh (340919)

  17. Oh… So Fox will be covering it.

    With a pillow, till it stops moving.

    nk (f80dc9)

  18. Fox News ran 1,098 primetime segments on Benghazi from the day of the attack until the committee hearings, which they carried live for more than 7 hours.

    Today they announced they won’t cover the hearings on the January 6th insurrection.

    twitter.com/SawyerHackett/status/1533968959854329857

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  19. @FWO@13 I can’t imagine they don’t have internal polling in her campaign office, so she knows what she’s facing. It seems like she’s in a situation where the thing she feels is the right thing isn’t the popular thing, but sometimes you have to fight the good fight, even if you know you are going to lose.

    Nic (896fdf)

  20. Bunch of babies.

    This is net neutrality redux. What is Fox doing to prevent people from seeing the hearings?

    Maybe it has changed but IIRC Fox Viewers ranked as better informed:
    https://washingtontimes.com/news/2021/may/19/survey-fox-viewers-better-informed-cnn-msnbc-viewe/

    But now these idiots can’t change the channel if they really think this BS is the most important prime time event since The Day After.

    Get a grip.

    BuDuh (ebe463)

  21. I should have packed a lunch to get through @13…the tweists, the turns, head scratching

    @14, “More to the point,….[no one cares]”

    Good save.

    Cheney will give here race the old college effort….but even if the writing is on the wall, she’ll go out taking one more swing at the king. Is there some smoking guns? Will we get act 3 of “this is just a political witch hunt”? I suspect we will see a lot of viewers on Fox Business….safe in the bubble….getting the real-time spin and the ten-step way to process why Trump fiddled while the Capitol was stormed. No one cares….indeed.

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  22. BTW, FoxBusiness gets 285k viewers on primetime, FoxNews around 2.4 million.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  23. The House’s Jan. 6 committee has turned to a renowned former network news executive to hone a mountain of explosive material into a captivating multimedia presentation for a prime-time hearing Thursday.

    James Goldston — former president of ABC News, and a master documentary storyteller who ran “Good Morning America” and “Nightline” — has joined the committee as an unannounced adviser, Axios has learned.
    Why it matters: I’m told Goldston is busily producing Thursday’s 8 p.m. ET hearing as if it were a blockbuster investigative special.

    He plans to make it raw enough so that skeptical journalists will find the material fresh, and chew over the disclosures in future coverage.
    And he wants it to draw the eyeballs of Americans who haven’t followed the ins and outs of the Capitol riot probe.

    https://www.axios.com/2022/06/06/jan-6-committee-adviser-james-goldston

    Just like the Benghazi coverage. 🧐

    BuDuh (340919)

  24. So what, Paul? Is the hearing canceled because of your ding dong factoids?

    Again. Get a grip.

    BuDuh (340919)

  25. All I did was present facts, BuDuh. My grip is fine, thank you.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  26. Useless and meaningless facts.

    Tripe.

    BuDuh (340919)

  27. Seems pretty obvious that the hope is that Fox Business will have far less viewers than Fox News, given the average numbers. Totally unsurprising.

    Dana (1225fc)

  28. Rome had 5 good emperors. But they had a longer run. So far all we’ve got is the 1 righteous senator.

    frosty (6a4592)

  29. Well, that speaks to the shame of the Republican Party.

    Dana (1225fc)

  30. Useless and meaningless facts.

    Really? A near order of magnitude fewer viewers is “useless and meaningless”?
    Okay, whatever.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  31. It seems obvious that Fox News has been regularly smashing the other news networks with stuff people want to see and they are not so stupid as to change what works for them when an experimental primetime circus gets priority on every other network.

    BuDuh (340919)

  32. Yes.. useless and meaningless.

    The viewers decide what they want to see. Check the ratings after the show trials. Not before.

    Goodnight.

    BuDuh (340919)

  33. It seems like she’s in a situation where the thing she feels is the right thing isn’t the popular thing, but sometimes you have to fight the good fight, even if you know you are going to lose.

    Nic (896fdf) — 6/6/2022 @ 9:19 pm

    Lose what, exactly? She has a mansion in Teton County (the home of Wyoming’s millionaire California leftists who use it as a residential tax haven), and she’ll be able to go back to her former career in DC think tanks, because of her family connections and for thumbing her nose at her own party.

    Politicians being celebrated in the media for going rogue on their own party only ever goes in one direction.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  34. Dana (1225fc) — 6/6/2022 @ 9:59 pm

    kind of like when certain stories get ignored on a certain blog, and certain people whine about it

    JF (35d082)

  35. @FWO@33 An election. That’s what was being discussed, right? Cheney losing an election?

    Nic (896fdf)

  36. kind of like when certain stories get ignored on a certain blog, and certain people whine about it

    FoxNews purports to be a news channel and, since “news” is in its very name, one would expect them to cover relevant events that are newsworthy to us Americans. The same cannot be said for a personal blog, where the bloggers can write about whatever they damn well feel like, and have no obligation to cover any of the readers’ hobby horses, but there are these things call open threads.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  37. @FWO@33 An election. That’s what was being discussed, right? Cheney losing an election?

    Nic (896fdf) — 6/6/2022 @ 10:49 pm

    Your point being?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  38. Republican party to liz cheney we are populist conservatives. Not ecomomic libertarian free trade conservative neo-con war mongers. Don’t let the door hit you on the way out and take reagonomics with you.

    asset (0f37cd)

  39. Now the distinction between the two tiers may seem blurred. That’s because the best gold diggers know how to hide the commercial nature of the transaction.

    So, nk, which form of golddigger is the tradesman who has had to make do as a shoe salesman since waves of uninvited immigrants are willing to work under the table for $7/hour? He supports Trump because the rest of you lot were thinking how cheap it is to get construction work done these days and didn’t give him a second thought.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  40. BTW, I have sent Cheney money, since anything bad that happens to Trump himself is good, but she IS being used and she is going to lose this primary. She probably wins the war as she will certainly outlive Trump. I wonder if she’ll run as an independent or a write-in if she comes close.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  41. Today they announced they won’t cover the hearings on the January 6th insurrection.

    Why would they? Their viewers won’t watch it. The bow-tie commenters here aren’t going to watch it on Fox. My guess is that their alternative programming will get an uptick in viewers.

    Confession: The only cable news show I watch is Shepard Smith’s on CNBC.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  42. Rome had 5 good emperors

    Only 5? Are you limiting this to the Western Empire?

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  43. Now, I’m not sure if we’ve had 5 “good” Republican Presidents. I can name 4 (Lincoln, Teddy, Ike and Reagan) but that 5th isn’t coming easily. Coolidge? Grant (yes, Grant)? Maybe “good” isn’t such a high bar. If not, then I can name 8 or 9, maybe 10.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  44. Show trials in Amerika are just getting started. Just wait till the democrats steamroll another fixed election.

    mg (8cbc69)

  45. It’s good to know that at the very least
    this circus will be impartial.

    mg (8cbc69)

  46. I can’t wait for the transgender Carolina Panthers halftime show during the first intermission!

    mg (8cbc69)

  47. “The viewers decide what they want to see.”

    And it appears NOT to be news…I guess ignore it and hope it goes away. Anything that no longer fits our world view is conveniently labeled “fake news”….what can go wrong?

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  48. So, nk, which form of golddigger is the tradesman who has had to make do as a shoe salesman since waves of uninvited immigrants are willing to work under the table for $7/hour?

    He would be the Big Mac consumer. The gold diggers are the Hannities and Carltons and McDanielses and McCarthies, et al.

    He supports Trump because the rest of you lot were thinking how cheap it is to get construction work done these days and didn’t give him a second thought.

    Trump was not the solution for that. He was part of the problem. From hiring illegals on his own construction projects to The United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement to the beautiful trade deal with Xi.

    nk (f80dc9)

  49. And since we’re talking about Wyoming, they were the pioneers in H-1 visas, before there were H-1 visas, with their Pyrenees sheepherders. And the vaqueros who drove the feeders up from the border states to the open range did not look and talk like Robert Duvall, Kevin Costner and Tom Selleck, either, when it comes to that.

    nk (f80dc9)

  50. Kevin@42 It’s not something I came up with so I’m not sure.

    As much as people lionize Lincoln I wouldn’t call a civil war and it’s aftermath good. It certainly wasn’t a period of prosperity and rule of law.

    I’m fascinated by the idea that this is only something expected of Rs. Also fascinating are those complaining about cults while canonizing Liz. Not so much fascinating, maybe expected, is the usual “meh private business can do what it wants” crowd complaining about meh private business not doing what they want.

    frosty (6a4592)

  51. FoxNews purports to be a news channel and, since “news” is in its very name, one would expect them to cover relevant events that are newsworthy to us Americans.
    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 6/6/2022 @ 11:01 pm

    they were also slow to acknowledge that the hunter laptop was russian misinformation

    fortunately, you were way out in front on that, thanks to your legit news sources

    JF (e371cb)

  52. @48 In this scenario is Liz the Ed’s Drive In complaining about how the McD way isn’t proper fast food and how their business practices, and food, are just terrible?

    frosty (6a4592)

  53. frosty: “As much as people lionize Lincoln I wouldn’t call a civil war and it’s aftermath good.”

    100% agreed….and a great President would have ducked that bullet

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  54. 53, like his contemporary nearly 100 years later, Ol’ Abe was in a state of poor reflexes and medicated ailments which isn’t optimum for dodging bullets.

    urbanleftbehind (e3c009)

  55. these legit news outlets only agreed to air this newsworthy news until after depp-heard wrapped up

    JF (e371cb)

  56. “they were also slow to acknowledge that the hunter laptop”

    100% agree. FNC should show 2000 Mules during primetime…or maybe just two hours of “the talent” shaking their collective heads over hunter’s laptop…because prosecutors shouldn’t determine who to indict, the viewers should….it’s only fair

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  57. AJ_Liberty (411e90) — 6/7/2022 @ 6:44 am

    i see what you mean there

    ratings are just another form of voting

    and the major networks are too good and noble for the average teevee viewer

    like liz and nevertrump are too good for the average voter

    this is the crux of the whole deal

    JF (35d082)

  58. fortunately, you were way out in front on that, thanks to your legit news sources

    Sure I was. The reality remains that I was awaiting confirmation that the contents were legitimate.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  59. JF: “ratings are just another form of voting”

    Yes, we need to demand justice be done to Hunter…because this is serious.

    And we probably need to demonstrate at the Capitol during this DemocRAT circus trial…maybe we can call it “Stop the Squeal”….dust off the gallows…we need to get our Constitution back!

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  60. Some people sound very worried about what the public might hear and see about their idol and his loyalists — in addition to what’s been obvious and well documented for a long time, but furiously denied by people who think we should ignore the evidence before our eyes and ears.

    It’s also interesting that Trump worshipers have difficulty comprehending that someone might choose to do the honorable thing even if there’s a personal penalty for it.

    Lose what, exactly? She has a mansion in Teton County ….

    So why did she ever run for office in the first place, and why is she running for reelection, if it’s really nothing to her?

    Many people appear to have an unlimited supply of excuses and defenses for a man who is overtly, extraordinarily self-centered in his understanding of right and wrong — they insist that he isn’t really selfish at all — but when they’re confronted with a person who does the right thing regardless of person cost, and it goes against the ego of their idol, they try very hard to frame it as cynically selfish.

    It’s also hilarious to see Trump worshipers huffing that someone else is “arrogant.”

    Radegunda (bf7bca)

  61. Trump was not the solution for that. He was part of the problem.

    Trump was not part of any solution other than the first part — talking about the problem, which was that GOP trade and immigration policies had seriously hollowed out America. In a sea of silence even a gibbering idiot gets credit for not being silent.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  62. Kevin@42 It’s not something I came up with so I’m not sure.

    I mean the Empire lasted for 1500 years from Augustus to 1453 AD. That didn’t happen with just 5 good emperors and 100 bad ones. Even the Western Empire alone lasted for 600 years, which again makes that number of “5” suspect.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  63. BTW, I have sent Cheney money, since anything bad that happens to Trump himself is good, but she IS being used and she is going to lose this primary. She probably wins the war as she will certainly outlive Trump. I wonder if she’ll run as an independent or a write-in if she comes close.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 6/7/2022 @ 12:19 am

    Sore loser law.

    NJRob (2209c6)

  64. If there’s a sore-loser law they can keep her off the official ballot, but I don’t see how they can prevent a write-in. Lisa Murkowski got past a sore-loser law in AK back in 2010 by beating both major candidates with write-ins.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  65. As much as people lionize Lincoln I wouldn’t call a civil war and it’s aftermath good

    It wasn’t his doing, unless you argue that allowing secession over slavery (and that’s what it was over) was an acceptable outcome.

    The immediate blame falls on Buchanan, but there is lots of blame to go around. Polk teed it up by annexing half of Mexico and opening up the slave-state/free-state admission question again. Pierce was as useless as Buchanan. Taylor’s successor Fillmore tried to fix it in 1850, but it was too little, too late.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  66. Also fascinating are those complaining about cults while canonizing Liz.

    Except that no one here is “canonizing” Cheney. In fact, what is happening is that at least some of us recognize there is at least one Republican who is willing to hold accountable any and all involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection regardless of the political and personal cost to her. To respect that is not the same as canonizing the individual. However, I recognize that could be something unrecognizable to Trumpers, given the insane idolization of the former president. It remains simultaneously amusing and jarring that the Congress member who is working hard to actually hold members of the government accountable is the same one being savaged by the very same people screaming about how corrupt government is, and how Congress and the President are hurting average Americans!

    In other words, Cheney is an equal opportunity representative who takes her oath to protect the Constitution seriously:

    I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic;

    no matter who those enemies might be.

    Dana (1225fc)

  67. Oh… So Fox will be covering it.

    With a pillow, till it stops moving.

    nk (f80dc9) — 6/6/2022 @ 9:10 pm

    Excellent……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  68. Rome had 5 good emperors. But they had a longer run. So far all we’ve got is the 1 righteous senator.

    frosty (6a4592) — 6/6/2022 @ 10:00 pm

    Liz Cheney is in the House.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  69. In other words, Cheney is an equal opportunity representative who takes her oath to protect the Constitution seriously

    Actually, Daughter Darth is merely an opportunist:

    Liz Cheney Violated the Constitution

    ‘In voting to impeach President Trump, Wyoming Rep. Liz Cheney violated the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution by declaring him guilty before due process.

    Regarding the mob violence at the U.S. Capitol building, Rep. Cheney stated that the president “lit the flame of this attack.” To be sure, he enflamed the marchers to the Capitol, but he did not incite to a riot. The mob itself chose to do that.

    The Constitution does not protect speech that incites a riot. Trump did not tell the marchers to march to the Capitol and engage in violence.

    In fact, he stated to them, “I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.”

    Rep. Cheney declared, “Everything that followed” at the Capitol “was his doing.” No, it was not his doing; it was the doing of many of the mob. She makes a faulty leap of post hoc, ergo propter hoc: after his comments, therefore because of his comments. The law and the Constitution don’t work that way. Nowhere did the president state or imply that the marchers should next march to the Capitol for violent insurrection.

    Rep. Cheney then charges the president with “betrayal … of his oath to the Constitution.” In unwitting irony, it is Cheney who betrays her oath to the Constitution by declaring guilt before due process.

    She should have taken the route that Sen. Mitch McConnell carefully did: wait to see what the evidence says—which implements due process.

    On January 17, the Republican Party Central Committee in Carbon County, Wyoming voted unanimously with 45 votes to censure Cheney for her vote to impeach President Trump.

    The Committee declared that “she voted in favor of the Democrats’ rushed impeachment article, denying President Trump due process.” The Committee was accurate in its charge.

    It is understandable that one week later, state senator Anthony Boucher tossed his hat into the ring in the Republican primary against Rep. Cheney.

    I want to relate a true story that explains the distinction between enflaming people and inciting a riot. These are constitutionally two entirely different things.

    In the late ’60s, when I was a college professor at a mid-sized Michigan university, nearly every campus in America was protesting the country’s involvement in the Vietnam war.

    One well known and revered professor at my university decided in a Hyde Park manner to protest the war. He set up a P.A. system in the center of campus and blasted his protests of the war.

    After dark, student mobs destroyed the campus. The destruction got so violent and widespread that military helicopters were flown in to tear-gas the entire campus, dispersing the students.

    Was this the professor’s constitutional right to engage in free speech on a public, not private, campus, or did he incite a riot? He enflamed students, but he did not instruct or suggest that they should violently destroy much of the campus.

    I take this as the professor’s constitutional right to free speech on a public campus—much as I take President Trump’s right to protest to his followers, even enflame them, but not incite them to mob violence and destruction.

    I’ve always liked Liz Cheney’s politics and wish she would have made the critical distinction between Trump’s enflaming comments and incitement to riot. With unanimous censure by her party leaders in Wyoming, she could lose her seat.’ – RONALD L. TROWBRIDGE, Policy Fellow at the Independent Institute. From 1987 to 1990, he served as Chief of Staff for retired U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger.

    https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13404

    DCSCA (0cf402)

  70. ‘In voting to impeach President Trump, Wyoming Rep. Liz Cheney violated the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution by declaring him guilty before due process.

    Due process does not apply to impeachment proceedings, as no criminal penalty applies to being impeached, simply removal (and possible disqualification) from office. There is no property interest in being President.

    “The due process clause by its terms does not apply to the context of a Senate impeachment since it specifies that individuals are entitled to due process of law before they can be deprived of ‘life, liberty, or property,’ ” (said) Keith E. Whittington, a politics professor at Princeton University and expert on impeachment….. “The punishments that the Senate can impose after a conviction in an impeachment trial extend to none of those things.”

    “The Constitution simply says the Senate has the sole power to try all impeachments, and provides no guidance or detail about what such a trial would entail,” he added. “Historically, the Senate has not recognized that the same procedural features of a federal criminal trial need to be carried over into an impeachment trial. The rules of evidence and the procedures of trial are different.”
    ……..
    “The argument that due process has been violated here has some political appeal, but it is wrong for two reasons: First, the clause does not apply because none of the interests protected by the due process clause are being denied here — the sanctions are removal and disqualification but not the deprivation of life, liberty, or property, which the clause protects,” said (Michael J. Gerhardt, a law professor and authority on impeachment at the University of North Carolina School of Law,), who was called to testify in the House as a legal expert during Trump’s first impeachment in 2019.

    “Second, even if due process applies, it has been satisfied here: The minimal requirements of due process are an impartial decision-maker and notice. The president has had plenty of notice about the impeachment effort, and the Constitution designates senators as the impartial decision-makers (which is why they take an oath to be impartial).”

    A conservative legal scholar, Ed Whelan of the Ethics and Public Policy Center, tweeted: “Of course the Senate should use fair procedures, and it’s fine to debate what those should be. But the idea that the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment has any bearing on the Senate impeachment trial is ridiculous.”

    See also Due Process and the Impeachment of Donald Trump

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  71. “I mean, it is fundamentally antithetical, it is contrary to everything conservatives believe, to embrace a personality cult. And yet, that is what so many in my party are doing today.” – Daughter Darth.

    Yet Daughter Darth voted with Trump 93% of the time, didn’t she. Too funny; another pudgy person who found themselves marching out of step w/colleagues was Lou Costello in ‘Buck Privates.’ Liz couldn’t recognize a cult if it jumped up and bit her on the ass– especially when her family has profited Halliburton-handsomely from one:

    The Reagan Cult

    THE REAGAN CULT….If ABC News had a “Word of the Week” feature, this week’s winner would surely be hagiography. The conservative canonization of Ronald Reagan is in full swing and the effusiveness of the praise being sent in his direction is unlike anything we’ve seen for half a century ? from either Democrats or Republicans.

    Why Reagan? What’s so different about him? Conservatives mostly talk about his accomplishments as president, but I don’t think that really accounts for their hero worship of him. Consider:

    The economy. Reagan is famous for lowering taxes in 1981, but the fact is that he also raised taxes several times after that. Stagflation? Inflation was lowered mostly due to Paul Volcker’s tight money policies at the Fed ? not to mention the lack of further oil shocks after 1979 ? and the unemployment record of the 80s wasn’t actually any better than the 70s. What’s more, the Reagan expansion was pretty average compared to other postwar expansions.

    But ? he did lower taxes significantly for the first time in 20 years. And the economy did boom.

    Winning the Cold War. Yes, he doubled defense spending, but a lot of it was for weapons systems like the MX missile, the Trident submarine, and the stealth program, that were started by his predecessors. He talked about strength, but hightailed it out of Beirut the first time he got his nose bloodied. He obsessed over Central America, but largely ignored the far more important campaign in Afghanistan until he was forced to during his second term. And in 1987 he signed an idealistic and far-reaching arms control agreement with Mikhail Gorbachev that was derided by many of his conservative advisors.

    But ? he did preside over an unprecedented defense buildup, and the Berlin Wall did fall in 1989.

    Social conservatism. Yes, he appointed Antonin Scalia and tried to appoint Robert Bork, but he also appointed Sandra Day O’Connor and (when the Bork nomination failed) Anthony Kennedy, who are considered generally centrist. He pandered to the Christian Right, but rather famously did little to actually accomodate them. He promised to reduce the size of government, but actually grew federal spending and federal employment faster than Bill Clinton.

    But ? he did appoint lots of conservative judges and he did veto lots of spending bills (even if he knew perfectly well his vetos would be overridden).

    So again: why Reagan? My point is decidedly not to pretend that Reagan had no substantive accomplishments, nor to pretend that he was really a pragmatist or a moderate rather than a true conservative. Rather, it’s to figure out why a president with a clearly mixed conservative record is so deified by conservatives. After all, they don’t treat Eisenhower the same way.

    The answer, I think, lies not so much in what he did as in what he said. Although his record is mixed, his rhetoric never faltered and there’s one thing about his presidency that I think is unquestionable: he changed the terms of the debate. Tax cuts, anti-communism, small government ? even if he didn’t follow through on all of them consistently, he at least made them acceptable once again as serious political goals.

    And this is surely why conservatives love him. In the same way that activist liberals fell for Howard Dean earlier this year because of his fiery speeches ? despite the fact that his actual record in Vermont was rather moderate ? conservatives love Reagan because he was the first president since 1930 to unapologetically promote conservative ideals. He told conservatives it was OK to be conservative, and even if he didn’t always follow through on his principles that was enough. For perhaps the first time in a half century, conservatives felt like they didn’t have to be embarrassed about who they were. It was ? finally! ? possible to be a conservative without being considered a John Birch Society loon.

    In that sense, he really does deserve his place as a patron saint of conservatism. Although in many ways the country has continued to move steadily along a liberal path remarkably unchanged by his presidency, conservative ideas are a serious part of the political conversation in a way they weren’t before Reagan.

    That’s why they love him, and I guess I don’t blame them. Flaws and all, if a liberal version of Reagan came along, I’d probably fall in love too.

    POSTSCRIPT: It’s probably hopeless to point this out, but I’m not a Reagan fan and I’m not trying to excuse his many and varied faults. I’m just trying to get a handle on why conservatives love him so much despite his rather mixed record on the issues that are important to them. OK?’ -source, https://washingtonmonthly.com/2004/06/10/the-reagan-cult/

    DCSCA (0cf402)

  72. @71. So she’s an opportunist. Thanks for playing.

    DCSCA (0cf402)

  73. Tucker Carlson weighed in last night:

    “How grotesque a joke is the January 6 committee?” he asked? “Well, Liz Cheney and Nancy Pelosi have hired the producer from Good Morning America, not to do a prostate health update, but to put together a primetime show trial this Thursday.”

    Carlson also teased his special of sorts.

    “There are a lot of questions unanswered from January 6th,” he said. “A lot. We’ll tell them to you at 8:00 p.m. on Thursday.”

    Ah, so he who calls the committee working to hold Americans involved in the 1/6 insurrection “grotesque” is going to set America straight. Good to know.

    Dana (1225fc)

  74. So she’s an opportunist. Thanks for playing.

    DCSCA (0cf402) — 6/7/2022 @ 9:59 am

    Since you are uninterested in facts…..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  75. It’s kind of funny how deep the hatred goes for Cheney among Republicans. She is very conservative and even after the first impeachment, still supported the re-election of Trump. So it’s not like she was an early never-Trumper or at odds with much of Trump’s agenda. It was just that January 6th was a tipping point for her and, henceforth, she was embarrassing all of the Trump defenders who were too invested in “Stop the Steal”. You can’t go as far as Hawley and Cruz were willing to go and want that exposed…or talked about. She had to be silenced. Same with the partisan excuse makers. It’s like my team can never do wrong because that only helps the DemocRATS, which we all know represent true existential evil.

    So they have to vilify ole’ Liz and revel in her political destruction…as if getting rid of a smart, thoughtful, conservative is some sort of victory. Heck the weird MTG is even more popular than Cheney. It’s pathological…and for what, Trump’s leadership? Yikes. At least DeSantis talks policy, Trump is mired in his own obsessions…be they calculated or part of some derangement. So, fine, view Cheney as the enemy…just as we now view Mattis, Bolton, Gen. Kelly, Sessions, Tillerson, Gary Cohn, Mike Pence, Mark Esper, Richard Spencer, Miles Taylor, Bill Barr, Gen. McMaster, and Tom Bossert. We carve up thoughtful people in exchange for mean-tweet entertainment. Sad.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  76. Trump on Trial: A Guide to the January 6 Hearings and the Question of Criminality

    President Joe Biden legitimately won a fair and secure 2020 presidential election—and Donald Trump lost. ……. (B)oth before and after Election Day, (Trump) tried to delegitimize the election results by disseminating a series of far-fetched and evidence-free claims of fraud. Meanwhile, with a ring of close confidants, Trump conceived and implemented unprecedented schemes to—in his own words—“overturn” the election outcome. Among the results of this “Big Lie” campaign were the terrible events of January 6, 2021—an inflection point in what we now understand was nothing less than an attempted coup.

    With Congress undertaking landmark hearings on all of that, our new Brookings report “Trump on Trial: A Guide to the January 6 Committee Hearings and the Question of Criminality” is a comprehensive guide to the proceedings. ……

    The report goes beyond prior analyses to provide the first in-depth treatment of the voluminous publicly available evidence and the relevant law, including possible defenses. It reviews the evidence as to whether Trump as a matter of law conspired with his outside counsel John Eastman, administration lawyer Jeffrey Clark, and others to defraud the United States in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371 by scheming to block the electoral count on January 6, 2021 and to subvert the Department of Justice’s election enforcement work. The report similarly reviews the evidence as to whether Trump and Eastman violated 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c) with their scheme to obstruct the congressional count.
    ……….
    The report’s review of well-established law and public record evidence as it exists today leads the authors to believe that there is substantial evidence of all the essential elements of those federal and (Georgia) state offenses and suggests there is a substantial basis for prosecutors to go forward. Accordingly, the report considers whether the Committee will send prosecutors an evidentiary “road map” or even formal criminal referrals as among the possible legislative and other outcomes following the hearings…….
    ##########

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  77. Cheney was 100 percent pro Trump, until he gave the nod to McCartney as the leader of the GOP in the house.

    Liz is a birther, she’s a unapologetic neo, she’s a one-worlder. She’s a life long govt employee. Got all her positions because of her daddy.

    EPWJ (9cc981)

  78. Since you are uninterested in facts…..

    Since you missed the point… again, thanks for play: what do we have for him, Johnny?

    DCSCA (afb7c1)

  79. So they have to vilify ole’ Liz and revel in her political destruction…as if getting rid of a smart, thoughtful, conservative is some sort of victory.

    Liz Cheney and the Many Lives of Neoconservatism

    This is too easy.

    DCSCA (afb7c1)

  80. The Jan 6th Star Chamber is just a political show to try and get the leftists in Congress to maintain power even though they’ve crushed the American public through onerous and destructive policies.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  81. It’s always amusing listening to liberals analyze Reagan. I mean, sure, he helped end the Cold War…but, but, but.

    Sure the economy boomed during his tenure, commensurate with major restructuring of the tax system….but, but, but

    Sure his party never held the House and he still built legislative majorities….but, but, but

    Sure he was optimistic, patriotic, and had a sense of humor…..but, but, but

    No one is perfect and maybe the Right has gone overboard in the past with Reagan praise, but I think the Left suffers from serious Reagan-envy. Clinton soiled his legacy along with the dress, while Obama almost single-handedly reinvigorated the GOP. Biden shakes hands with invisible people. Now these days it’s going to be difficult for any President to truly succeed without some bipartisanship (does Reagan reform the tax system without Tip O’Neill?), but the Left truly has no one larger than life. The Right doesn’t either for that matter….everyone is trying to mimic an ultimately uninspiring, pessimistic, and divisive style. Eventually we’ll wake up.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  82. Cheney was 100 percent pro Trump, until he gave the nod to McCartney as the leader of the GOP in the house.

    McCarthy become House majority leader in 2014, long before Trump was a political force.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  83. “How grotesque a joke is the January 6 committee?” [Tucker Carlson] asked? “Well, Liz Cheney and Nancy Pelosi have hired the producer from Good Morning America, not to do a prostate health update, but to put together a primetime show trial this Thursday.”

    ABC is the go-to media outlet, via President Susan Rice; her hubby is the ABC connection. BTW, anybody remember who produced the Watergate Hearings on PBS in 1973?? Hint: it wasn’t Sam Ervin.

    “Bueller…? Bueller…? Bueller…?” — ‘Ferris Bueller’s Day Off’ – 1986

    DCSCA (afb7c1)

  84. Counterpunch-Now there is an unimpeachable source.

    During the 2016 presidential election, CounterPunch published a piece attributed to Alice Donovan, who purported to be a freelance writer but US intelligence officials alleged to be a pseudonymous employee of the Russian government. Donovan was tracked by the FBI for nine months, as a suspected fictitious persona created by the GRU.] In late November 2017, after CounterPunch had published several more pieces by Donovan, The Washington Post contacted Jeffrey St. Clair about her. The co-editor said that Donovan’s pitches did not stand out amongst the pitches that CounterPunch received daily and began making inquiries. He asked Donovan to substantiate her identity by sending a photo of her driving license but she did not. On the same day The Washington Post article was published on Donovan, St. Clair and Frank published a piece stating that CounterPunch only ran one article by Alice Donovan during the 2016 election, which was on cyber-breaches of medical databases. Donovan was also exposed by the newsletter as a serial plagiarizer. CounterPunch removed all of the articles from their site.

    Source. Footnotes omitted.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  85. ‘In voting to impeach President Trump, Wyoming Rep. Liz Cheney violated the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution by declaring him guilty before due process.

    Bizarre. Mr. Trowbridge just displayed that he doesn’t understand the impeachment or speech-debate clauses.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  86. #81, what a psychotic, unbalanced, screed. I want those 3min of my life back. Who is Nicky Reid? Who’s ever heard of Counterpunch? It’s just more unhinged partisan drivel. Maybe it’s time to once again start scanning past DCCCP’s posts

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  87. The Jan 6th Star Chamber is just a political show to try and get the leftists in Congress to maintain power even though they’ve crushed the American public through onerous and destructive policies.

    No John Dean. No Ehrlichman and Haldeman. No Alexander Butterfield moment– all players in an administration then still in power.

    Investigating an administration out of power 18 months doesn’t lower gas prices or get baby food formula to American mothers or check inflation. BTW, speaking of checks, Daughter Darth voted to give $40 billion of borrowed bucks from adversary China to non-U.S. citizens, non-U.S. taxpayers w/no accountability to the Moran Gang running Ukraine.

    “What America needs are leaders to match the greatness of her people!” – The Big Dick, August, 1968

    DCSCA (afb7c1)

  88. @88. Except it’s not.

    OTOH, who ever heard of AJ Liberty?? 😉

    DCSCA (afb7c1)

  89. @83. But, but, but… The Reagan Cult. 😉

    DCSCA (afb7c1)

  90. Prosecuting Trump for the Insurrection: The Well-Founded Case for Optimism
    ……..
    In the discussion that follows, I explain the basis for this conclusion by focusing on a prosecution of Trump for obstructing an official proceeding in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512(c)(2), the charge DOJ has brought against more than 280 Jan. 6 defendants. (Note: other charges may be available against Trump, and he could (and likely would) be charged with conspiracy, which requires an agreement to commit a crime, or aiding and abetting, in connection with a substantive obstruction offense. For the sake of simplicity, the following analysis focuses on evidence that proves the substantive offense.). After explaining the elements of the charge, I address skepticism that Trump will be charged or convicted, and then explain why a prosecution of Trump is both winnable and necessary despite the known risks. I also discuss the long-standing DOJ standards that point directly toward prosecution in cases such as this one.
    …….
    By every objective measure, and according to the judgment of numerous former federal prosecutors, and now a sitting federal judge, former President Donald Trump committed crimes when he – unlike any U.S. president before him – refused to accept the results of a free and fair election and attempted to overturn it. Many regular citizens who acted on Trump’s false claims and exhortations have been convicted of the same charge that Trump would likely face if indicted. And far from being weak, the evidence that Trump knew he could not obstruct an official proceeding to maintain himself in office is, as a legal matter, overwhelming and of a kind used to convict ordinary and high-profile Americans every day.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  91. ‘In voting to impeach President Trump, Wyoming Rep. Liz Cheney violated the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution by declaring him guilty before due process.

    Impeachment is a political act, not a criminal trial. All impeachment says is “We charge that X did _____. For that reason X should be removed from office.” Numerous people have gotten doctorates researching the limits on what can fill in that blank.

    Not that this matters since the House is in the position of prosecutor, not a trial court at all. And prosecutors often opine about guilt before the case is tried.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  92. Mattis/Cheney 2024

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  93. Wyoming Mothers Struggle With Baby Formula Shortage

    https://cowboystatedaily.com/2022/05/16/wyoming-mothers-struggle-with-baby-formula-shortage/

    Attagirl, Liz.

    DCSCA (9b6a39)

  94. Kevin@62 You’ve never heard of that phrase? If you want to debate the point you might have to wait a bit. Machiavelli has been gone for a while. As are some of the other historians who’ve asserted this point. Machiavelli‘s underlying argument would also apply to St. Liz of NeverTrump.

    frosty (3e0b27)

  95. Aren’t there any cows in Wyoming?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  96. Jackson students walk out of school to protest gun violence 6/7/22

    JACKSON HOLE, WYOMING— Hundreds of students left Jackson Hole High School at 10 a.m. Monday to protest gun violence in response to recent mass shootings such as the Uvalde, Texas, massacre, where an 18-year-old gunman killed 19 elementary school students and two teachers.

    “This could happen to us any day,” said sophomore Ben Murphy. “School shootings are happening more than ever… I think it’s an important thing that we all address.”

    Accompanied by teachers, mounted patrol members and Principal Scott Crisp, the high schoolers walked a brisk 20-minute route to the middle school before returning to class.

    A handful of students carried signs urging people to protect lives, not guns. Others stayed outside to write the names of gun violence victims on the bike path in chalk.

    “Sadly, it does take something like a walkout, something that disrupts the school day and disrupts our town’s functioning, to really get people to listen a little bit more,” said junior Sophie Lamb, one of the organizers who was inspired by similar student activism across the country.

    “We just want to stop feeling scared when we’re in our classrooms,” Lamb said.

    Beyond recognizing gun violence as a tragedy and a threat, many of the students who spoke with the Jackson Hole Daily also saw it as preventable.

    “Wyoming has some of the least restrictive gun laws in the country. And people are talking about giving staff firearms. That’s definitely not a solution,” said sophomore Axl Koch.

    Several teachers who walked with the students Monday declined to comment. Crisp said school employees were primarily there to keep students safe while allowing their voices to be heard.

    “Trying to get people to understand and balance the normal day with honoring student voices is important,” he said, adding that normalcy is tough to achieve right now.

    “I think with any traumatic event, it takes time, it takes healing. It takes education [and] being an advocate,” Crisp said. “I do think there needs to be actual care and a plan in place to make sure they can go to school safely. So we’re constantly working on that and trying to improve every year.”

    One of Lamb’s classmates, Acacia LaPrade, planned a separate protest against gun violence for 6 p.m. Monday on Town Square.’ – source, https://www.gillettenewsrecord.com/news/wyoming/article_0d857604-f9eb-5c78-b899-bb104fba1a03.html

    Where was Liz? Left In make-up:

    Liz Cheney Wants the January 6 Committee to Pull Its Punches

    The key Republican on the committee investigating the deadly assault on democracy is reportedly wary of making bold recommendations. But the committee has to go big.

    https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/liz-cheney-january-6-hearing/

    This is what it costs Wyoming constituents to fill up their Tin Lizzies: According to GasBuddy price reports, the cheapest station in Wyoming was priced at $4.09 per gallon Sunday, while the most expensive was $5.69, a difference of $1.60 per gallon.

    Where is Liz? Still in make-up.

    DCSCA (9b6a39)

  97. @76 How is she being silenced? Even if she fails to get re-elected she isn’t silenced. I suspect by silenced you mean she won’t be getting the top tier graft right from the trough.

    I like how you threw in Bolton as a smart, thoughtful, conservatives. Bolton is neither smart, thoughtful, or conservative unless by that you mean invested endless neocon wars and living large on fat PAC cash. Sadly, I think that’s what a lot of people mean though.

    Bolton is the poster child for not being silenced. He’s like old luggage. If you’re wondering why St. Liz would “destroy” her political career take a Bolton’s income after getting into the PAC racket. Sorry, I mean to say, send her money because she needs it to fight for democracy and freedom.

    frosty (3e0b27)

  98. Aren’t there any cows in Wyoming?

    It’s the current lone representative in Congress, Rip.

    DCSCA (9b6a39)

  99. @98 That’s amazing. They took a brisk 20 minute walk that would more accurately be described as a school organized field trip, called it a walkout, and I’m guessing Fox News didn’t even have the common courtesy to give them a comment in the little scrolling banner at the bottom of the screen.

    That took some real courage though. To go for a walk with teachers, the principal, and mounted patrol officers. I’m moved.

    You’re right. That was a perfect venue for St. Liz. She really dropped the ball.

    frosty (3e0b27)

  100. Not Unrelated:

    Bannon subpoenas Pelosi and House January 6 committee members to fight contempt charges
    …….
    Last week, Bannon’s legal team subpoenaed 16 lawmakers and congressional staffers to testify at the July trial and produce documents, according to one of Bannon’s attorneys and copies of the subpoenas provided to CNN. The subpoenas were aimed at all nine members of the select committee, three committee staffers and General Counsel for the House of Representatives Douglas Letter. Bannon also subpoenaed House Democratic leadership, including Pelosi, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer and Rep. Jim Clyburn.
    …….
    Historically it has been a challenge to compel members of Congress to testify because their legislative activity is protected under the Constitution’s Speech and Debate Clause.

    “In this particular case I’m extremely confident that the staff members and members of the House would be shielded by the Speech and Debate Clause,” said Thomas Spulak, who served as general counsel to the House of Representatives in the 1990s.

    The lawmakers and staffers could file a motion to quash the subpoenas on those grounds.

    “I’m very confident that defense would be upheld, and they will not be compelled to produce anything or appear for anything,” Spulak said.

    Bannon’s attorneys are seeking to challenge the makeup of the House select committee, question lawmakers’ motives for targeting Bannon and argue Bannon was not required to testify because doing so could have jeopardized former President Trump’s executive privilege.
    ……..
    The subpoenas also call for targets to hand over a roster of documents, including items relevant to the establishment of the committee, the decision to refer Bannon for criminal contempt and communications with one of Bannon’s lawyers. In the case of Democratic Reps. Adam Schiff and Jamie Raskin, Bannon’s team has also requested documents that pertain to their recently published books.
    ###########

    Comedy gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  101. frosty: “How is she being silenced?”

    Where in comment 76 does it say she is being silenced?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  102. While I am sure there are some small percentage of people who are somewhat cultish about Trump, who the hell is she to decide who fits in her box of cultish definitions. I’m a part of the huge percent of GOP voters who think Trump would be doing a better job than Biden, and could give a crap about his abrasiveness and other flaws as long as he executed better than Biden (to be honest Cheney would do a better job than Biden too, so that is a very low bar) I also felt Trump was less corrupt than Hillary (another very low bar) and I believe he just may have been less corrupt because Hillary had already sold access through her foundation as Sec State.

    Cheney is smearing her party. She thinks everyone who doesn’t like her is a cultist and can’t figure out why the people of Wyoming are kicking her to the curb. Maybe they just liked how Trump treated their energy sector compared to what the Democrats offered. Maybe the ranchers liked how Trump reined in the BLM, USDA and the Obama ERA water police who wanted to declare spring water on private property a public watercourse. Maybe they see too many Democrats as enviromental cultists, which is something that can actually be defined

    steveg (83ef31)

  103. “Well, that speaks to the shame of the Republican Party.”

    Given the last 16 months in America, when I read drivel like this, I wonder whether the author has been unsuccessfully fighting narcolepsy.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  104. I think she deserves to leave the stage because of her failure to represent her constituents to their liking, which is kinda how the system works, yes?
    Then there are these overbroad smears she delivers onto her own party. Because of these overbroad smears, she is responsible for herself being seen as a willing tool of the Democrats, which means less and less people are going to give a darn what happens to her. I think a kind interpretion of Liz Cheney right now would be to say: All “principles” no diplomacy although I really don’t think any chip off the old Dick Cheney block is going to be able to act and talk in a way that says “Forgive them. They don’t know what they are doing” without sounding condescending and contemptuous

    steveg (83ef31)

  105. @86. ROFLMAOPIP Since when has “plagiarism” mattered to ant-Trump ideologue righties who abandoned their party nominee in this era?

    “No joke!” – Joe Biden

    DCSCA (312627)

  106. This years blockbuster flop will sink like the Titanic.
    Wish the 81 million were on board.

    mg (8cbc69)

  107. @108. UFO hearings would get better ratings. Would love to watch Daughter Darth wax on about illegal aliens from beyond our borders– and just beyond.

    DCSCA (312627)

  108. Lizzy is the Adam Schiff —- of the republican party.

    mg (8cbc69)

  109. 109-
    Lizzy does have an “ET” resemblance

    mg (8cbc69)

  110. #108 “This years blockbuster flop will sink like the Titanic.
    Wish the 81 million were on board.”

    It’s not often one sees someone wishing for the death of 81 million Americans. Though it wouldn’t totally surprise me coming from “Czar” Putin or “Emperor” Xi.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  111. I think she deserves to leave the stage because of her failure to represent her constituents to their liking, which is kinda how the system works, yes?

    steveg (83ef31) — 6/7/2022 @ 2:17 pm

    Should a Representative poll her constituency on every issue, and just enact what the majority wants? Not necessarily. Part of being a leader is leading people in a good direction, and not just sticking a finger in the wind on every issue.

    Because if that’s what you want, we might as well have a pure democracy, which is something the Founders considered and rejected, for wise reasons.

    norcal (3f02c4)

  112. Edmund Burke was a conservative, one of the great conservative thinkers of all time. And, in a speech to the voters who had just elected him, he set forth, clearly, the conservative position on representation.

    My worthy Colleague says, his Will ought to be subservient to yours. If that be all, the thing is innocent. If Government were a matter of Will upon any side, yours, without question, ought to be superior. But Government and Legislation are matters of reason and judgement, and not of inclination; and, what sort of reason is that, in which the determination precedes the discussion; in which one sett of men deliberate, and another decide; and where those who form the conclusion are perhaps three hundred miles distant from those who hear the arguments?

    To deliver an opinion is the right of all men; that of constituents is a weighty and respectable opinion which a Representative ought always to rejoice to hear; and which he ought always most seriously to consider. But authoritative instructions; mandates issued, which the member is bound blindly and implicitly to obey, to vote, and to argue for, though contrary to the clearest conviction of his judgment and conscience; these are things utterly unknown to the laws of this land, and which arise from a fundamental mistake of the whole order and tenour of our constitution.

    (There’s some historical background here.)

    There are many examples of legislators rightly choosing to put their “reason and judgement” above popular opinion. In the 20th century the most famous is Winston Churchill warning against the dangers from Nazi Germany before Hitler and Stalin attacked Poland in 1939. That was not a popular opinion in the United Kingdom before then, even in his own Conservative Party. But he was right not to bend to popular opinion, just as Liz Cheney is right not to bend to popular opinion among Wyoming Republicans, now.

    (At one time, John F. Kennedy’s “Profiles in Courage” was widely read, and it is still, for all its flaws, worth reading. It can be best understood as a series of examples, illustrating Burke’s argument.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  113. Well Jim – you and the ilk you hang with are the cause of everything wrong in Amerika. Why do the 81 million get so mad at the fact they own this? 6 buck gas, empty shelves, limits to what amount of meat you can by, thanks to the republican soy boy club.

    mg (8cbc69)

  114. Do any of you 81 million live in the real world? Or are you all victims of West Coast Pelosiazation?

    mg (8cbc69)

  115. @103

    You can’t go as far as Hawley and Cruz were willing to go and want that exposed…or talked about. She had to be silenced. Same with the partisan excuse makers.

    That was easy to find using the browser page search feature. How was she silenced?

    frosty (3e0b27)

  116. Jim Miller (406a93) — 6/7/2022 @ 2:34 pm

    Maybe you don’t read all of the posts

    frosty (3e0b27)

  117. @114 And now we’re at Hitler? Liz is Churchill in this story?

    frosty (3e0b27)

  118. “Because if that’s what you want, we might as well have a pure democracy, which is something the Founders considered and rejected, for wise reasons.”

    —- norcal

    The poll that counts will be coming soon enough.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  119. The Civil War “certainly wasn’t a period of prosperity and rule of law”. One can make an argument for the latter, though those who refused to accept the result of the 1860 election are almost wholly responsible for the breakdown in law and order. (And most suffered, as a result.)

    But despite that, the United States economy grew during the Civil War, and soon began to grow after that, especially outside the South. By the end of the war, for example, the United States was exporting a greater value of grain to Britain, than it had cotton, before the war. (And, as I assume you know, most Americans were still living on farms then.)

    Despite the terrible losses of the war, the United States population grew 22.6% between 1860 and 1870 (from 31,443,321 to 38,558,371), with immigrants flooding into the country, to share in the prosperity.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  120. @115 I thought consumer shortages was only in socialist Venezuela not capitalist ameriKKKa and we don’t have the CIA and multi-national corporations sabotaging our economy like Venezuela does.

    asset (aa734d)

  121. She’s hopeless. She doesn’t seem to have any ability to think.

    We are in fact in a situation where he continues to use even more extreme language, frankly, than the language that caused the attack,

    The language did not cause the attack, no matter how many times the Democrats try to claim it did. The words alone could not have. And nobody who saw that speech expected it. Not that Trump maybe could have caused it some other way, although he probably didn’t since it disrupted his plans.

    “Was it a conspiracy?”

    “I think certainly — I mean, look, if you look at the court filings …”

    Of course the riot was a conspiracy. She seems to have been educated not to believe in “conspiracy theories”

    The question is: What was the nature of the conspiracy, and who was part of it, and did some of it involve infiltrating the Capitol Police so they should say there was no possibility of so much as a demonstration even at the Ellipse?

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  122. @115. 6 buck gas, empty shelves, limits to what amount of meat you can by…

    $6 buck gas???? That’s sooooo yesterday. Literally. TODAY:

    On a CC at gas station closest to home: Regular, $6.79/gal., Midgrade, $6.95; Premium, $7.05/gal., Diesel, $7.15/gal.; Empty shelves a plenty at grocery store; beef hotdogs, $5; frozen pizza $8; London Broil, $11/lb., 72/28 hamburger $6/lb.

    Anybody carrying water for Biden now can’t tell the difference between a pail of water and a bucket of piss.

    Attaboy, Joey!

    DCSCA (a738ee)

  123. The conspiracy started in the Kremlin. That’s why Trump’s speech was so “inartful”. Melania’s FSB handler wrote it, and she made Trump give it.

    Why do you think Biden is helping out Ukraine? All the weapons. All the sanctions? Because he loves Ukraine? No. It’s our way of hitting back at Putin for trying to take over our government.

    But they’ll never tell us that out loud. It will remain a secret known only to a select few at the highest levels of government. All we’ll see is the tip of the iceberg.

    nk (1a359e)

  124. @126. OFGSROFLMAOPIP.

    DCSCA (a738ee)

  125. Yes, folks, salvaging Carter’s legacy and making him look Lincolnesque- onjce thoguht to be a virtual impossibility in our life times— compared to Squinty McStumblebum, Plagiarist Biden… yep, it’s all on Putin.

    You know why Joe wears aviator sunglasses: … Carter smiled. Low beams, Jimma! Hit the low beams.

    DCSCA (a738ee)

  126. The artificially high gas prices are a tripartite conspiracy. Between the left who have wanted us to have European gas prices since Ross Perot ran on the idea in 1992; the carmakers who are heavily investing in electric vehicles; and, most of all, the oil companies for whom every increase is pure profit.

    nk (1a359e)

  127. @129. Step. Away. From. The. Bong.

    DCSCA (a738ee)

  128. Some people sound very worried about what the public might hear and see about their idol and his loyalists — in addition to what’s been obvious and well documented for a long time, but furiously denied by people who think we should ignore the evidence before our eyes and ears.

    This is levels of fantasia that shouldn’t even be possible.

    It’s also interesting that Trump worshipers have difficulty comprehending that someone might choose to do the honorable thing even if there’s a personal penalty for it.

    Again, it’s funny how a politician going rogue is only ever celebrated when it goes in one direction. John McCain and Jim Jeffords weren’t THAT long ago

    Lose what, exactly? She has a mansion in Teton County ….

    So why did she ever run for office in the first place, and why is she running for reelection, if it’s really nothing to her?

    Because she’s an attention-monger?

    Many people appear to have an unlimited supply of excuses and defenses for a man who is overtly, extraordinarily self-centered in his understanding of right and wrong — they insist that he isn’t really selfish at all — but when they’re confronted with a person who does the right thing regardless of person cost, and it goes against the ego of their idol, they try very hard to frame it as cynically selfish.

    The heat signature on these strawmen could be picked up from Pluto.

    It’s also hilarious to see Trump worshipers huffing that someone else is “arrogant.”

    Radegunda (bf7bca) — 6/7/2022 @ 7:58 am

    Consider it an in-kind contribution, Rad. I realize you’re still mad that Trump blew up the neocons’ sclerotic, culture war-dodging grip, but it had to be done.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  129. Should a Representative poll her constituency on every issue, and just enact what the majority wants? Not necessarily. Part of being a leader is leading people in a good direction, and not just sticking a finger in the wind on every issue.

    Because if that’s what you want, we might as well have a pure democracy, which is something the Founders considered and rejected, for wise reasons.

    norcal (3f02c4) — 6/7/2022 @ 2:50 pm

    If a Representative’s constituents decide that person isn’t representing their interests, they’ll kick them to the curb. And if Liz Cheney wants to give those same constituents an ultimatum, they’re well within the realms of reason to thumb their nose right back at her.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  130. #113

    What are you trying to say?
    I am saying that she put her own views and the actions she would take out to her voters. They said if you do that, we won’t vote for you. That was the end of the transaction. Her constituents and her have diverged with the remedy to come at the end of her term. Doesn’t make them cultists, doesn’t mean she is the principled One. People like her are why when you fire someone today, they have to pack up and go escorted out by security.
    Cheney went against their wishes, insults them on her way out the door, a gracious person, she is not. But she is a national treasure because she loathes your common enemy? Lets not get carried away.

    steveg (be9f1c)

  131. “How was she silenced?”

    What Cheney was saying about Trump and his enablers was embarrassing to them. She had to be removed from her prominet position of leadership, primaried, and taken out of her congressional seat. It’s pretty clear that Trump has executed a revenge tour against anyone and everyone that voted for or called for his impeachment. So the silencing in this context means stripping her of her power.

    steveg, like many Republicans, weigh this in a completely utilitarian fashion. Trump’s overall policies are better for him….character doesn’t matter because he can always name someone else that’s worse….his abuse of power doesn’t matter because it’s not him that is being abused…..Trump’s attack on Presidential norms doesn’t matter because that’s just high-minded BS that doesn’t appear to mean anything….Trump failing to do anything on Jan 6th doesn’t matter because BLM rioters have done worse and in the end no representatives were hurt…Trump lying about the election results doesn’t matter because voting was weird during Covid and the Democrats will do anything to cheat the vote…and fears of Trump being reckless in foreign policy…as alleged by most every major foreign policy advisor…from Tillerson to Mattis….is not troubling because he’s no worse in terms of results than Obama or Bush. We’re so deeply trapped in partisanship that we refuse to see warning signs. The GOP voter should want better…much better.

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  132. Now, I’m not sure if we’ve had 5 “good” Republican Presidents. I can name 4 (Lincoln, Teddy, Ike and Reagan) but that 5th isn’t coming easily. Coolidge? Grant (yes, Grant)? Maybe “good” isn’t such a high bar. If not, then I can name 8 or 9, maybe 10.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9) — 6/7/2022 @ 12:31 am

    Coolidge was probably the last dedicated conservative President the country had, in the sense that he really was mostly a hands-off and quite humble President (Hoover was not, despite K-undergrad claims to the contrary).

    I’d be careful about putting TR on there. Romanticism about the national parks and trust-busting aside, he’s largely responsible for establishing the template of a “strong” executive “who gets things done,” and that kind of power-leveraging coupled with his own massive ego established a watershed that actually weakened the notion of checks and balances in the government over the last 120 years.

    Grant was a good general, but much of the private sector corruption that came to mark the Republicans in the post-Civil War era and give rise to the labor wars later on can be laid squarely at his feet, due in no small part to all the former Union officer glad-handing that was taking place across the country (including your current home state). I’d actually put Arthur above Grant.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  133. @113. … a gracious person, she is not.

    It runs in the family:

    ” Dick Cheney responded with one word in a TV interview when he was asked what he thought about polls that indicate two-thirds of Americans believe the war in Iraq was not worth fighting, that the cost in lives was not worth the gains.

    “So?” the vice president said.

    So. Even a “little word” is powerful, carries significance and — on many occasions — can and has become a defining moment for the person using that or those “little words.”

    When pressed by the reporter whether he cares about the opinion of the American people, instead of bristling at the suggestion, Dick Cheney tried to emend his response by saying “I think you can not be blown off course by the fluctuations in the public opinion polls.” You know, those pesky polls that merely reflect the will of the people.’ – TIME.com

    DCSCA (98b3c1)

  134. Some people sound very worried about what the public might hear and see about their idol and his loyalists — in addition to what’s been obvious and well documented for a long time, but furiously denied by people who think we should ignore the evidence before our eyes and ears.

    Especially 18-wheeler drivers. Which is why Biden was and is kept in the basement bunker.

    DCSCA (98b3c1)

  135. It’s pretty clear that Trump has executed a revenge tour against anyone and everyone that voted for or called for his impeachment.

    And like I pointed out above, some have navigated that better than others, like Kemp, by letting his voters know that he wouldn’t hold it against them if they supported Trump despite the criticism that he got, that he didn’t take it personally himself, and that he’d still appreciate their vote if they wanted to provide it, because beating Stacy Abrams was more important in the long run.

    Liz doesn’t have those instincts, and she doesn’t give a rip if the people who voted for her will do so again. That’s great if you want to “stick to your principles,” but 25-plus years of neocon leadership ought to be demonstrative enough of where that leads.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  136. In the 20th century the most famous is Winston Churchill warning against the dangers from Nazi Germany before Hitler and Stalin attacked Poland in 1939. That was not a popular opinion in the United Kingdom before then, even in his own Conservative Party. But he was right not to bend to popular opinion, just as Liz Cheney is right not to bend to popular opinion among Wyoming Republicans, now.

    Inaccurate.

    The popular opinion in the UK was to avoid engaging in another war after the carnage of WW1 that virtually wiped out a generation of British young men. And, of course, Churchill’s WW1 record- particularly after the Gallipoli disaster, wasn’t exactly stellar anbd didn’t enhance his street cred:

    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/the-disaster-before-gallipoli.html?edg-c=1

    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/battle-of-gallipoli.html?utm_source=penultimate&edg-c=1

    And lest you forget, after WW2 ended, the voters threw him out of office.

    Clutching a cigar, growling at the Nazis and trippin g through East End rubble as bombs rained down on London made for great PR and good radio for Murrow and his Boys, but he did renege on his commitments to defend France, pulling planes back to England as the AEF was literally driven into the sea at Dunkirk- which was a loss for him as well. Only America saved British bacon– and the price- a policy plan driven by anti-colonialist FDR—was the eventual dismemberment of the Empire.

    DCSCA (98b3c1)

  137. AJ_Liberty (411e90) — 6/7/2022 @ 5:53 pm

    I know I’m supposed to be laser focused on destroying Liz’s career and whatnot or something so I may be behind on the latest news. Is the past tense correct in this sentence?

    She had to be removed from her prominet position of leadership, primaried, and taken out of her congressional seat.

    Isn’t she still in office? How is

    Clearly, Cheney is moving full-steam ahead in an effort to hold accountable any and all who are responsible for the insurrection of Jan. 6.

    she moving full-steam ahead if she’s been silenced? I’m trying to square Dana’s conjecture that these hearings might help her win with your conclusion that she’s been silenced.

    frosty (03fe62)

  138. It’s pretty clear that Trump has executed a revenge tour against anyone and everyone that voted for or called for his impeachment.

    Not CA-22, where Trump has stayed out of a challenge to David Valadao (R-Hanford). Pelosi is running ratfuk ads though.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  139. @140: It would be fun if all comments had to come with diagrammed sentences.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  140. Oh, come now, DCCCP. Isn’t what you really object to about Churchill’s career is his desire to strangle Bolshevism in its cradle? And his “Iron Curtain” speech? We know Putin isn’t a fan of Churchill’s — but the British people are fans of the man.

    One thing many have forgotten is that Churchill headed a unity government, not a Conservative government, in World War II, with Labour in a prominent role.

    (After Gallipoli, Churchill was given command of the 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers, and served with them, first in training, and then for months in the trenches in Belgium.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  141. Jim Miller (406a93) — 6/7/2022 @ 7:04 pm

    gallipoli was a complete disaster, much like the search for wmd

    countless lives lost for a dumb idea

    and liz served in the trenches after, if by the trenches you mean raking in the dough from the DC trough and daddy’s stash

    so, lots of similarities there

    and churchill censored the press, so i guess that’s next

    looking at you, fox

    JF (e8846b)

  142. she moving full-steam ahead if she’s been silenced? I’m trying to square Dana’s conjecture that these hearings might help her win with your conclusion that she’s been silenced.

    frosty (03fe62) — 6/7/2022 @ 6:59 pm

    You misread me. I never implied nor said that the hearings might help her win. I’m not surprised you missed my point, but I’m happy to reiterate it: Cheney is following her conscience and honoring her oath to the Constitution even if it means losing the election. She is moving ahead with the committee and doing what is necessary to hold anyone involved in Jan. 6 accountable.

    Dana (1225fc)

  143. The NM GOP candidate for governor is Mark Ronchetti, who has said dismissive things of Mr Trump. He won with 60% in a 4-candidate field, with a 40% lead over second place.

    There’s no denying Republican gubernatorial contender Mark Ronchetti called former President Donald Trump the “orange one.”

    It’s on video, after all.

    But did the former longtime TV weatherman, who has said he was only joking when he made a crack about the former president’s orange hue, also call Trump “the stupidest man who’s ever lived,” as well as call for his impeachment?

    So claimed the candidate he beat by 40 points.

    https://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/ronchetti-decries-dow-mailer-asserting-he-called-trump-stupidest-man-whos-ever-lived/article_4ca5a01e-ddc9-11ec-8e36-9f48e4b58e99.html

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  144. Churchill’s worst move was trying to hold onto Empire after WW2, in India then later in Africa. Not quite as bad as the French tried though.

    Kevin M (eeb9e9)

  145. @145

    Cheney is moving full-steam ahead in an effort to hold accountable any and all who are responsible for the insurrection of Jan. 6.

    Possibly an opening for a win could happen as a result of Republicans voting for her (but not saying it publicly for fear of criticism), along with Democrats who admire her courage and will register as Republicans to vote for her, and the real possibility that Republicans won’t collectively coalesce around one of her challengers. All together, that might open the door wide enough for a win.

    So, “all together” doesn’t include the hearings? She’s doing something else that would inspire Ds to vote for a true person of courage? Or that would make Rs worry about being criticized by who? Presumably pollsters?

    frosty (8deb2c)

  146. @142 I’d prefer a little more latitude and less hyperbole. It would make things more interesting and enjoyable. But I’m in the minority in thinking that should apply to everyone.

    Back on topic; Liz is getting her message out just fine. I’m not sure why anyone would say she’s been silenced, much less double down.

    frosty (8deb2c)

  147. @143. Oh come now, Jimbo, next time, try to get it right.

    DCSCA (deed77)

  148. @147. FDR seeded its doom; the UK by that time was in decline on so many fronts. Even today, British flags are coming down in the Commonwealth as independence stirs. What goes around comes around; how Great Britain lost its greatness is a lesson from history Americans may be learning the hard way.

    DCSCA (deed77)

  149. Frosty,

    Please disregard my comment at 145. I see that I misread what you said. Suffice it to say, I was working on something else at the time and didn’t pay close enough attention. My apologies.

    Dana (1225fc)

  150. @152 no worries

    frosty (8deb2c)

  151. FWO: “And like I pointed out above, some have navigated that better than others, like Kemp, by letting his voters know that he wouldn’t hold it against them if they supported Trump despite the criticism that he got, that he didn’t take it personally himself, and that he’d still appreciate their vote if they wanted to provide it, because beating Stacy Abrams was more important in the long run.”

    Cheney has repeatedly stated that she believes Trump is an existential threat to our constitutional order. She is actively trying to persuade Republican voters of that position. That the threat is about more than just mean tweets and a narcissistic persona. I think she believes that if enough voters critically evaluate the details of January 6th and “stop the steal”, that they will side with her….and start the rejection of Trumpism.

    No one is foolish enough, in this climate,….with our current media….to think that this will be easy. The polling shows this. But the impending hearings and their impact are her last shot. She could certainly have played the game and bit her lip and said and did nothing. Many did. But that’s not what she believes and why should she ignore the biggest pressing issue she sees for her party? Like Paul Ryan, she can get another job. Why sell her soul? Why be bullied into watering down her concerns? She should fight for what she believes and let the chips fall where they may.

    Only time will tell about the wisdom of Trumpism and where it’s leading the GOP. We seem destined for another collision in 2024. I stand with Cheney in saying that we’re going down the wrong path. I guess we’ll see who’s right….

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  152. Cheney has repeatedly stated that she believes Trump is an existential threat to our constitutional order. She is actively trying to persuade Republican voters of that position. That the threat is about more than just mean tweets and a narcissistic persona.

    And she’s failing.

    No one is foolish enough, in this climate,….with our current media….to think that this will be easy

    And that’s exactly why she’s failing–because most Republican voters understand that the vast, VAST majority of the media (not to mention the entertainment and education industry) is on a different side than they are, one that’s fully accepted the principle of “repressive tolerance” that demands their political and even religious beliefs be silenced and even criminalized.

    Any politician who doesn’t understand this is just repeating the neocon mistakes of the past. The very same ones that resulted in Trump snatching the party out of their hands to begin with.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  153. FWO: “And that’s exactly why she’s failing–because most Republican voters understand that the vast, VAST majority of the media (not to mention the entertainment and education industry) is on a different side than they are,”

    So are you saying that since Trump attacks the media and the liberal elites, he should be allowed to disrupt the electoral count system and sit silently while his supporters brutalize cops and storm the Capitol? Because Cheney is for accountability. You seem to be for Presidents abusing their powers as long as he’s your guy and he’s sufficiently mean to the libs. How does this perspective not end badly?

    AJ_Liberty (411e90)

  154. @156 Squaring the circle on the Liz narrative is as much an exercise in NeverTrump psychology as it is a political exercise.

    On the one hand we’re told she voted consistently with Trump prior to 6/Jan so Trumpers should love her if they care about policy. In theory the only reason to not like her is Trump cult.

    But we’re also told that NeverTrump isn’t just about surface issues. It’s about substantive policy and process issues and this is one of the things that separates it from Trump cult. Liz had no issue with Trump policy prior to 6/Jan and wouldn’t vote differently going forward, so we’re left to conclude. In theory, NeverTrump should also be NeverLiz if this is something more than everything that gets lumped into “mean tweets”.

    We’re told though that her stand on 6/Jan overrides all of that. I suppose you can say it redeemed her. She now is a person of honor and integrity. Possibly she always was. We’re also told this isn’t cult of personality stuff because NeverTrump doesn’t do that.

    The easier answer is she was/is attempting to play the McCain/Manchin maverick bipartisan card. It would be a rational play, especially after 6/Jan, when Trump is on the way out. It’s not a bad card in general, or it didn’t used to be. A lot of voters have caught on to that scam so it’s a riskier bet now.

    But that explanation doesn’t sit well with NeverTrump. And that’s more interesting than the political tactics of Liz.

    frosty (8deb2c)

  155. @156 I’d say we’re several steps past being able to hold Trump accountable or to accomplish what you suggest.

    The Jan/6 hearings are political theater. They aren’t designed to hold Trump accountable. They’re designed to make a political statement and we’re pretending those are the same thing.

    Put differently, if your house caught fire and it mostly burned down leaving you with a lot of big holes and a melted pile of tools and you asked me to help you fix your sink with your tools; I’m not trying to kill your dog when I say no. It’s perfectly rational for me to point out that you may at least want to get some new tools and put a tarp on the roof first.

    For example, we’ve got Adam Schiff on the committee correct? And he’s a lying sack of weasel !$&@. Maybe, and I’m just spitballing here, the powers that be could have been a little less obvious?

    The system is already far more broken than a congressional hearing will fix. There’s no reason anyone should expect anything out of these hearings other than talking points and posturing.

    frosty (8deb2c)

  156. https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/abortion-activists-firebomb-another-pro-life-office/

    While the media focuses on taking away our God-given rights, here’s what’s going on in the rest of the nation.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  157. https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2022/06/08/kavanaugh-threat-arrest-justice/

    The left’s hyperbole is causing unstable people to act. Are we charging them with treason?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  158. In theory, NeverTrump should also be NeverLiz if this is something more than everything that gets lumped into “mean tweets”.

    Or another more plausible theory is that Cheney agreed with Trump on policy (hence her 93% pro-Trump voting record) but not on character, and his post-election hijinks, culminating in the J6 insurrection, were the tipping point.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  159. @161, Paul, I guess conspiring to subvert the electoral college vote count and failing to act during the Capitol siege is all folded into “mean tweets”. Makes things easier to dismiss that way.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  160. The left’s hyperbole is causing unstable people to act. Are we charging them with treason?

    Speaking of hyperbole, but no, because they are not committing treason.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  161. “The left’s hyperbole is causing unstable people to act. Are we charging them with treason?”

    It’s just the well regulated milita in action.

    Davethulhu (054e7d)

  162. Liz Cheney is so principled that she tossed her lesbian sister-by name- under the bus in 2013, in a craven attempt to paint herself as a Wyoming conservative worthy of taking over a Senate seat. Liz made up for it 8 years later by saying she’d been wrong.
    I can’t think why anyone would dare challenge her motives, or principles. I’m equally sure she was raised in a home without a whiff of political skullduggery, never seen a knife in the back, full of forgiveness for people who call Liz and her Dad “warmongers”

    steveg (9763ec)

  163. “Mean tweets” is an attempt to dismiss principled complaints about corruption and incompetence as being only about tone. I’ve taken the bait before but it never results in anything interesting.

    Time123 (419e37)

  164. Davethulu,

    Are you supporting trying to assassinate a Supreme Court justice?

    NJRob (fa0693)

  165. Holy cow! Glad they caught the guy looking to assassinate Kavenaugh before he could hurt anyone. Interesting to see if he was part of a group or movement.

    The personalization of these policy disagreements is getting worse.

    Time123 (419e37)

  166. 156.–I’m saying Liz Cheney is too clueless or arrogant to actually convince Republican voters that holding Trump accountable is more important than beating Democrats in elections with a culture war running hot. She’s had the political roads of life plowed for her for so long that she doesn’t understand how to navigate such an environment and draw people to her side that didn’t already want to see Trump’s head on a spike.

    She’s seen as a jobber for Democrats now, irrespective of how she voted in the past. That’s just how it is.

    Factory Working Orphan (619d34)

  167. “Holy cow! Glad they caught the guy looking to assassinate Kavenaugh before he could hurt anyone. Interesting to see if he was part of a group or movement.”

    Wanna bet on whether he was being “monitored” by the FBI?

    Davethulhu (054e7d)

  168. There will be hearings on prime time (8 pm) Thursday, on CBS, NBC ABC but not Fox.

    They never had prime time hearings even during Watergate, or Iran-contra or the Trump impeachments

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  169. @160 this was stefanik’s fault

    liz just has figured out how yet

    JF (6111c4)

  170. @171 well, back then the democrats weren’t in need of major electoral help

    JF (6111c4)

  171. 138. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 6/7/2022 @ 6:09 pm

    And like I pointed out above, some have navigated that better than others, like Kemp, by letting his voters know that he wouldn’t hold it against them if they supported Trump despite the criticism that he got, that he didn’t take it personally himself, and that he’d still appreciate their vote if they wanted to provide it, because beating Stacy Abrams was more important in the long run.

    Kemp said” He’s mad at me, but I’m not mad at him.
    .

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  172. Winston Churchill’s big mistake in World War I was assuming that everybody else was as competent as he was. That’s why may of his ideas didn’t work.

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)

  173. https://reason.com/volokh/2022/06/08/so-long-as-dobbs-remains-undecided-the-lives-of-the-justices-are-at-risk/

    So Long As Dobbs Remains Undecided, The Lives of the Justices Are At Risk
    The Dobbs 5 should immediately issue an unsigned per curiam order, with an opinion to follow, even over the Chief Justice’s objection.

    Just how Roberts and the left likes it.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  174. They should give all the justices guns.

    Davethulhu (054e7d)

  175. They should make sure that there’s only one entrance to the Supreme Court.

    Davethulhu (054e7d)

  176. Supreme Court Justices will be in danger no matter how the Court rules in Dobbs. Both sides have their extremists, neither side has clean hands. Ror example Eric Rudolph, who confessed to bombing two abortion clinics before the 1996 Olympic bombing. There have been 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, etc. of abortion clinics, as well as the murder of four doctors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  177. @162 That’s a fairly obvious mischaracterization of my comment. It’s actually the exact opposite. But it is one of your favorite strawmen and it seems like you bought in bulk.

    @161 If she walked side by side with him prior to 6/Jan, something I don’t accept but I’m willing to work with, and still agrees on policy and NeverTrump has issues with Trump beyond character issues, ie he’s not really conservative, etc., then NeverTrump should still have issues with Liz since she wasn’t, and still isn’t, really conservative.

    Her stand on 6/Jan shouldn’t be enough to redeem Liz as unwilling to abandon her integrity if NeverTrump is consistent and based in the principles they claim.

    frosty (bc3395)

  178. #147 Churchill was out of power when most of the decolonization happened. He lost the 1945 election during World War II, although people often say after. (A simple way to remember that is to say that he lost the election, and power, between VE day and VJ day.)

    India and Pakistan gained independence in 1947, by far the biggest single change in the empire. (And the division resulted in an estimated one million deaths.)

    Churchill became Prime Minister again in 1951 and lasted until April 1955, before the decolonization of most Africa, which began in 1957, with the independence of Ghana.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  179. @162 That’s a fairly obvious mischaracterization of my comment. It’s actually the exact opposite. But it is one of your favorite strawmen and it seems like you bought in bulk.

    Nah. You’re clearly saying that NeverTrumpers are hypocrites for supporting Cheney now when she voted with Trump with such frequency.
    Quite a few politicians voted with Trump and held their noses on his character. The difference is that Cheney hit her tipping point while others like McCarthy made a few grumbly noises but then tucked tail back to Tribe Trump when they realized their reelection chances would be shot.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  180. @182 At least it’s clear that you understood part of my point before you misrepresented it with the “mean tweets” routine.

    frosty (88526b)

  181. The left’s hyperbole is causing unstable people to act. Are we charging them with treason?

    This isn’t a left/right thing. It’s Populism– and it’s at a simmering near boil. Citizens have had it w/ bureaucratic incompetence and stupid acts by government officials who clearly care more about non-citizens in other lands more than We The People who pay the fright and their salaries. Subsidizing incompetence is no longer acceptable policy. And it has only been aggravated by electing a supposedly 50 year experienced doofus as POTUS who oozes, poops and pees incompetence and has surrounded himself with oblivious dummies to manage him.

    Joey, next time you stumble up the stairs into AF1:

    “I want you to paint this name on the nose of your ship: Leper Colony. Because in it you’re gonna get every deadbeat in the outfit. Every man with a penchant for head colds. If there’s a bombardier who can’t hit his plate with his fork, you get him. If there’s a navigator who can’t find the men’s room, you get him. Because you rate him.” – Frank Savage [Gregory Peck] ‘Twelve O’Clock High’ 1949

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  182. @182 At least it’s clear that you understood part of my point before you misrepresented it with the “mean tweets” routine.

    “Mean tweets”?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  183. it is inconceivable that anybody could love america and our 230 year old institutions more than they love mr. donald trump who kept gas and eggs affordable for four years

    liz cheney must have some nefarious motives which we could probably find in hunter biden’s laptop if the lapdog media would only let us

    i bet george soros has something to do with it too

    he always does

    nk (814e8f)

  184. liz cheney must have some nefarious motives which we could probably find in hunter biden’s laptop if the lapdog media would only let us

    Well, I’m still not seeing the sense of frosty’s hypocrisy assertion, just like I’m still not processing his assertion from months earlier that Cheney stood against Trump to improve her reelection chances.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  185. Well, I’m still not seeing the sense of frosty’s hypocrisy assertion, just like I’m still not processing his assertion from months earlier that Cheney stood against Trump to improve her reelection chances.

    Paul Montagu (5de684) — 6/9/2022 @ 7:29 am

    It’s not that complex. She made a political calculation. She misjudged. Now she’s committed to it and has to make the best of it.

    The alternative is that she’s the one true honest and righteous R who is fighting the good fight alongside the honest and righteous Ds to save the republic.

    The first one is politics as usual on any given day. The second is a mediocre plot line from the West Wing.

    frosty (dcd693)

  186. #188

    The mystery of human nature is that we tend to think that doing the right thing is also doing the smart thing. If we are doing something because it’s smart, we usually talk ourselves into thinking it’s right as well. If we are doing something because we think it’s right, we talk our way into thinking its smart.

    So I reject your implied binary approach. Ms. Chaney has taken her stance — which is one I prefer — and will likely lose her seat over it. People like McCarthy, who started out believing the same as Chaney, but changed his mind pretty quickly, will keep his seat. I fancy both of them feel they are doing the right thing and the smart thing.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  187. It’s a valiant distraction to make this about Cheney and not about what Trump did or didn’t do. It’s always people just being mean to Trump and joining the dark side. He’s so unlucky like that.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  188. It’s not that complex. She made a political calculation. She misjudged. Now she’s committed to it and has to make the best of it.

    Right, because it couldn’t be that she was deeply offended by Trump’s actions and inactions in his last coupla months in office.
    We do know without a doubt who made a political calculation, and that was McCarthy, who was similarly offended as Cheney but then made a groveling pilgrimage to Mar-A-Lago after Trump expressed his displeasure.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  189. @191 But this isn’t really the story being told. Or at least it’s not the one I’m criticizing. It is the watered down version that keeps getting swapped into place though.

    The story I’m criticizing is the one we’ve seen across multiple posts and comments. Some version of how she’s a martyr to the Republic. She’s unwilling to abandon her integrity and oath to the Constitution. That she’s doing the right thing knowing that it will cost her her career. That anyone who criticizes her is following the Trump cult.

    In this story it’s Liz who is moving full-steam ahead and is in it until the end. Notice how it’s never Liz and a pack of dishonest Ds on a witch hunt trying to score points. No one seems to even be willing to pretend those Ds aren’t in it for more political power and to win elections. It’s better to ignore that and paint the picture of Liz as Liberty Leading the People.

    This myth needs several things to be true. Liz needed to know at the time that this would be a career ending move. But it seems like she made the same calculation McCarthy made, i.e. coming out against Trump was jumping off the sinking ship. This wasn’t an obviously bad calculation. There’s been a consistent thread of Rs that were NeverTrump for his entire term. Once Trump was out of the Oval Office it was obvious that there would be a vacuum that group would want to fill. But for this myth we’ve got to ignore that. We’ve got to pretend everyone knew on Jan/6 that Trump would have the influence we’re now pretending he has after leaving office. We’ve got to pretend Liz knew she was running up the beach at Normandy into fire from the entrenched bunkers.

    Again, at the end of the day there are basically two choices. Either Liz saw an opportunity to capitalize on Trump’s loss or she’s a politician knowingly flushing her career to do the right thing.

    The odd thing is I don’t think my version of what Liz is doing is that critical. She made a reasonable calculation. It’s what politicians do. I’m baffled by this need to sanctify her.

    frosty (dcd693)

  190. So you’re criticizing a narrative no one is actually defending. I think that’s called attacking a straw man.

    Time123 (4c71ac)

  191. liz cheney must have some nefarious motives which we could probably find in hunter biden’s laptop if the lapdog media would only let us

    Her neocon times be up. Out of step; just like Lou Costello in ‘Buck Privates.’

    DCSCA (1b72b1)

  192. Again, at the end of the day there are basically two choices. Either Liz saw an opportunity to capitalize on Trump’s loss or she’s a politician knowingly flushing her career to do the right thing.

    And which still leaves out the notion that she was actually offended by Trump’s post-election behavior. Your either-or, which leaves no margins for anything else–is, uh, interesting.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  193. She’s doing what she thinks is the right thing without planning to end her political carer.

    Trump’s people tried to change Wyoming law to prevent Dems and Inds from voting in the Republican primary. They failed. Whether that can save her — not enough information.

    Primary day is Tuesday, August 16, 2022

    Sammy Finkelman (1d215a)


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