Patterico's Pontifications

5/26/2022

Per Wall Street Journal: Frantic Uvalde Parents Handcuffed and Tased By Police While Outside of School (UPDATE ADDED)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:42 pm



[guest post by Dana]

The Wall Street Journal reports that parents who were waiting outside of Robb Elementary School while there was an active shooter inside, claim that they begged the police who were standing around to take action. This is absolutely damning. First, what happened outside of the school (Note: I’m going to quote heavily from the report because it is so mind-boggling awful):

The gunman behind the mass shooting at an elementary school here lingered outside the building for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers, authorities said…

Victor Escalon, a regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said he couldn’t say why no one stopped the deceased gunman, 18 year-old Salvador Ramos, from entering the school during that time Tuesday. Most of the shots Ramos fired came during the first several minutes when he entered the school, Mr. Escalon said.

DPS officials previously said an armed school officer confronted Ramos as he arrived at the school. Mr. Escalon said Thursday that information was incorrect and no one encountered Ramos as he arrived at the school. “There was not an officer readily available and armed,” Mr. Escalon said.

According to Escalon, here is the timetable of events. Note that a 911 call was placed just two minutes after the gunman began shooting at witnesses outside of the school:

Ramos shot his grandmother Tuesday morning and then used her truck to drive to Robb Elementary School, crashing the truck into a nearby ditch at 11:28 a.m…The gunman then began shooting at people at a funeral home across the street, prompting a 911 call reporting a gunman at the school at 11:30. Ramos then climbed a fence onto school grounds and began firing before walking inside, unimpeded, at 11:40. The first police arrived on the scene at 11:44 and exchanged gunfire with Ramos, who barricaded himself in a fourth-grade classroom. There, he killed the students and teachers.

It was at 12:40 – an hour later – that a Border Tactical Team got inside the school and killed the shooter.

With regard to the frantic parents outside of the school gates – who knew the shooter was inside with possibly their children this is the account from the Journal based on videos and parent/witness statements:

Videos circulated on social media showing parents confronting police outside the building while Ramos was barricaded in the classroom.

“The police were doing nothing,” said Angeli Rose Gomez, who after learning about the shooting drove 40 miles to Robb Elementary School, where her children are in second and third grade. “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere.”

Ms. Gomez, a farm supervisor, said that she was one of numerous parents who began encouraging—first politely, and then with more urgency—police and other law enforcement to enter the school. After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an active investigation.

Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.

Videos circulated on social media Wednesday and Thursday of frantic family members trying to get access to Robb Elementary as the attack was unfolding, some of them yelling at police who blocked them from entering.

“Shoot him or something!” a woman’s voice can be heard yelling on a video, before a man is heard saying about the officers, “They’re all just [expletive] parked outside, dude. They need to go in there.”

After the confrontation ended with Ramos dead, school buses began to arrive to transport students from the school, according to Ms. Gomez. She said she saw police use a Taser on a local father who approached the bus to collect his child.

“They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us. That’s how it felt,” Ms. Gomez said.

For his part, Escalon says that “Our job is to report the facts and have answers. We’re not there yet”.

Q: How is it that the police were not compelled to do more than just form a perimeter around the site while an active shooter was killing any number of individuals in real-time? Why weren’t they obligated to act?

I cannot imagine the rage of these parents. And for any who were frantically waiting outside the gates and weren’t as fortunate as Ms. Gomez to be able to rescue their children, that rage and anguish must be a hundredfold.

ADDED: In light of frantic Uvalde parents desperately trying to rescue their children while the police stood idly by, and then being restrained, handcuffed, or tased, it’s pretty sickening to learn that some police officers went into the school to…rescue their own children. While I’m thankful their children were spared, what about the parents outside the gate who loved their children just as fiercely and wanted to rescue them just as much as the police officers???

I’m going to leave you with the sight and awful sounds of anguished parents who were desperate to get to their children:

UPDATE: Texas Department of Public Safety Lieutenant Chris Olivarez answered questions today from CNN’s Wolf Blitzer about why the police did not engage with the shooter. Frustratingly, the short answer is “they might have been shot”:

Blitzer asked his guest if officers at the scene made the correct choice to wait for backup before they went after the gunman.

Olivarez said officers were inside the school quickly, and they heard gunfire when they arrived. They called for reinforcements, he said. The officers in the building waited for a special tactical team to show up as they isolated the shooter to one classroom.

“Don’t current best practices, don’t they call for officers to disable a shooter as quickly as possible, regardless of how many officers are actually on site?” Blitzer asked him.

Olivarez said the officers who arrived at the school quickly might have been shot had they attempted to take out the gunman alone. He said,

“The active shooter situation, you want to stop the killing, you want to preserve life, but also one thing that – of course, the American people need to understand — that officers are making entry into this building. They do not know where the gunman is. They are hearing gunshots.

They are receiving gunshots. At that point, if they proceeded any further not knowing where the suspect was at, they could’ve been shot, they could’ve been killed, and that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside that school.

I’m left wondering how many of those children could’ve been saved and survived their gunshot wounds had the police decided that the risk was worth it instead of leaving them trapped inside with a madman and his guns.

–Dana

131 Responses to “Per Wall Street Journal: Frantic Uvalde Parents Handcuffed and Tased By Police While Outside of School (UPDATE ADDED)”

  1. Speechless.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  2. > She said she saw police use a Taser on a local father who approached the bus to collect his child.

    That’s utterly f*cking outrageous.

    aphrael (309e3a)

  3. I know I have views that diverge from most regulars here about this, but frankly, based on my training and experience, this is about what I expect out of cops.

    Without a clear power imbalance in their favor, they tend to be remarkably resistant to the sort of heroics they love taking credit for. We’ve seen the same thing in other active-shooter situations, not to mention many departments’ preference for early-morning no-knock raids in situations where they were clearly unnecessary.

    “When seconds matter, help is minutes away” is a statement of optimism.

    john (cd2753)

  4. Aren’t the police obligated to act when lives are in imminent danger? Were they told to stand down and wait for the big boys or what? I see an endless array of lawsuits happening in the near future.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  5. ‘Speechless.’

    Texas.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i85ob2DackI

    ‘Mammas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow up to Be Cowboys’

    DCSCA (9f1b55)

  6. On cnn uvalde official is shown video and read statement about local officers rescuing their own children and leaving the other children to their fate instead of confronting shooter. Uvalde town official. That doesn’t look good. This is the first time I have heard this.

    asset (b7e9ef)

  7. Dana,

    No, police have no general duty to protect. There is sometimes a specific duty, such as cases of an arrestee, but there is no general duty.

    Soronel Haetir (6ef4cf)

  8. No, police have no general duty to protect.

    So those ‘To protect and Serve’ decals on b&ws mean nothing. Got it.

    DCSCA (9f1b55)

  9. I see an endless array of lawsuits happening in the near future.

    Yep.

    DCSCA (9f1b55)

  10. The link is bad.

    Here is the article, I think.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/uvalde-residents-voice-frustration-over-shooting-response-11653588161

    Updated May 26, 2022 5:02 pm ET

    It’s in tomorrow’s newspaper.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  11. I just corrected the link.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  12. It’s been hard to get details. We’ve got better about the shooter, but you have to pick up one fact in one news story and another in another.

    He was in contact with one (new) girl on Instagram and with one for a longer time on Facebook. She was 15 years old and living in Frankfurt, Germany. She wouldn’t know what police to inform when he told her he was going to kill people in an elementary school. I have to feel that he was stealing money from his family – how did he get the $1800 plus for one of the rifles if he’d quit his job at Wendy’s – he earlier worked at a Whataburger. His grandmother had confronted him about her ell phone bill ad wanted to get his win cell phone. But I think he had planned in advance when his whole world was going to collapse and timed it for between his 18th birthday and the end of the school year. He, of course, did not believe in right and wrong and I think he probably wanted everybody who’d ever argued with him to be sorry.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  13. > So those ‘To protect and Serve’ decals on b&ws mean nothing. Got it.

    It’s marketing, and it aligns with how they like to think about themselves, but there’s no legally enforceable duty. Supreme Court said so, decades ago.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  14. What’s offending me isn’t the police not putting themselves at risk to protect the kids — I mean, I think that’s the whole point to police, but I understand it doesn’t work that way.

    What’s offending me is the police *interfering with parents* and *preventing them from voluntarily taking the risk the police weren’t willing to take*.

    That’s just b—s–t.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  15. So, still want to disarm the public? Who will protect the innocent from the slaughter?

    NJRob (b15883)

  16. Sovernign immunity laws to protect police and cities are very strong in texas. Most lawsuits would not be able to get to court. Under the guise of ending silly law suits texas was able to stop most merit law suits against government.

    asset (b7e9ef)

  17. * and wanted him to get his own cell phone.

    As I said, he was probably stealing from his family — but this had not yet come to their attention and certainly not to law enforcement.

    He also once told a workplace female friend that he was going to shoot up the Wendy’s where they worked. Presumably she didn’t take it seriously, and indeed he eventually chose another target, just like the Buffalo shooter did.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/us/the-deadliest-us-school-shooting-in-a-decade-shakes-a-rural-texas-city.html

    “He would curse at the customers, at the managers, even at me,” said Jocelyn Rodriguez, 19, an employee at the Wendy’s restaurant. She recalled that he once told her, “I’m going to shoot up the Wendy’s,” but she never took his threats seriously. “I thought he was joking.”

    Two weeks ago, she said, he stopped showing up to work.

    He used to kill cats, like Jeffrey Daumer I think. And he liked guns. He really, really, liked guns, and pictures of himself with guns.

    None of this would have raised a red flag, but it could have prevented him from getting a green light if 10 people had to insure him.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  18. Australia.

    This is priceless:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0FLsIzNxkI&t=4s

    ‘Whoop-de-do’

    DCSCA (9f1b55)

  19. aphrael (4c4719) — 5/26/2022 @ 2:46 pm

    What’s offending me is the police *interfering with parents* and *preventing them from voluntarily taking the risk the police weren’t willing to take*.

    It’s the same principle s firemen not letting people go into abirning building even when they are not willing to go in themselves.

    The question is: Did more people die because of this?

    There were (only?) two classrooms, one for third raders, one for fourth graders that were connected internally

    The 3rd graders mostly escaped through the windows when the gunman announced he was going to kill them all. They ran across the street to a funeral home.

    This shouldn’t have taken two days to come out. It’s a lesson again in how inaccurate news stories can be. Reporters don’t really know anything

    https://loricism.fandom.com/wiki/Gell-Mann_Amnesia_Effect

    The Gell-Mann Effect, also called the Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect describes the phenomenon of an expert believing news articles on topics outside of their field of expertise even after acknowledging that articles written in the same publication that are within the expert’s field of expertise are error-ridden and full of misunderstanding. The term was coined by author and film producer Michael Crichton.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  20. “It’s a lesson again in how inaccurate news stories can be. Reporters don’t really know anything”

    The reporters were relaying information provided by the police.

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  21. …lingered outside Robb Elementary for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading himself in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers.

    That didn;t come out before.

    There was an armed security guard. He barreklled past him, and the guard chased after him and they exchanged shots.

    By the way, the grandmother is still alive. She was shot in the head but perhaps she had a big hair-do He ran out into the street bleeding. The grandfather wasn’t home. He didn’t know his grandson had bought the guns and ammunition the previous week.

    The shooter stole the grandparents’ truck. He didn’t have a driver’s license and wasn’t a good driver.

    https://www.ksat.com/video/news/2022/05/25/video-shows-the-crashed-truck-of-robb-elementary-school-shooter-salvador-ramos-in-uvalde
    The mother had kicked him out of the house (and she may have hadm at one time at least, a drug habit The father left the family to to work in another locality.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  22. Davethulhu (ee3282) — 5/26/2022 @ 3:08 pm

    The reporters were relaying information provided by the police

    Well, they should know that police reports can be inaccurate. Have you ever looked at any police report of a crime you reported to police?

    They were told at first that 14 kids had died. That was clearly preliminary.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  23. Same, aphrael. I watched this video of desperate parents trying to get to their children – knowing that the shooter was in their with them – while the police stood around. Their frantic screams and haunting cries come from deep within the depths of their being. It’s jarring and surreal. I cannot imagine.

    But also, I am upset that the police appeared to do nothing. They went for the easy target: the parents. They handcuffed them, tased, and restrained them and yet did none of this to the shooter.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  24. DPS officials previously said an armed school officer confronted Ramos as he arrived at the school. Mr. Escalon said Thursday that information was incorrect and no one encountered Ramos as he arrived at the school

    So where did that story come from?

    It was a bit unclear, with the armed security officer chasing after him (not noticing the concealed rifle?) firing later, and the shooter escaping unwounded and the officer not being one of the casualties, or at least not dead.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  25. So he first began shooting at people in or near the funeral home

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  26. Help me out here. Wasn’t there a situation in Texas a few years ago where an Islamic terrorist or two (with rifles) were about to invade a building, but were prevented from doing by a police officer with a handgun who opened fire and killed one or both?

    Why can’t more police be like that guy?

    norcal (3f02c4)

  27. errata 21 She ran out into the street, bleeding.

    Not much has bee published about the nature of her wounds. But her lie is not considered to be in immediate danger.

    https://nypost.com/2022/05/26/grandmother-shot-before-texas-school-shooting-out-of-surgery/

    Celia Martinez Gonzales, 66, was in stable condition at a San Antonio hospital following the unspecified procedure Wednesday, her granddaughter said.

    “I’m sorry I’ve been with my grandmother all day,” Shelby Celeste Salazar wrote in a message to The Post.

    “She will be needing many more surgeries in the weeks to come,” added Salazar. “She won’t be home anytime soon.”

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  28. Texas dps lt. confirms local cops storm school to get their own kids out while leaving the other children to their fate. What is there to say?

    asset (b7e9ef)

  29. I’ve updated the post with two grim videos regarding the massacre. One from law enforcement confirming that some police officers rushed into the school during the massacre to rescue their own children, and another one of the raw desperation of parents outside the fence trying to do the same thing.

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  30. A spokesman for the U.S. Marshals Service said deputy marshals never placed anyone in handcuffs while securing Robb Elementary.

    Presumably they didn’t write down that they did, and they rescinded the arrest so it’s like it didn’t happen.

    It was not even a detention. It became a non-event.

    It took the police awhile to decide that what they needed to do was prevent more people from entering the danger zone, or maybe they didn’t interfere with anyone wearing a law enforcement uniform.

    Texas state trooper Juan Maldonado said he went to the school with a friend whose wife was one of the teachers slain in the shooting.

    He said police were already on the scene, indicating a fast response time, and that it appeared they had set up a perimeter around the building.

    Mr. Maldonado said he and the friend were able to enter the building to get students out and showed cuts on his forearms that he said were from breaking windows to assist in that effort.

    “I don’t want to critique anything; we’re here to be supportive of the community,” he said.

    ???

    The Blue Wall of silence I guess.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  31. It’s regrettable that police have to be prepared for a school shooting, but they should’ve been prepared. It’s been 23 years since since Columbine.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  32. 30. Another version of the escape out the window (not sure how this fits in – from an adjoining classroom?)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/us/the-deadliest-us-school-shooting-in-a-decade-shakes-a-rural-texas-city.html

    As the gunman approached, Juan Paulo Ybarra Jr. said, his little sister, a 10-year-old student at Robb Elementary, had been inside her fourth-grade class, watching a movie. He said she looked out of the classroom window and saw a man outside with a gun, then alerted her teacher. Soon the classroom could hear gunfire aimed toward nearby windows, she told him.

    Mr. Ybarra said his sister described how she and her fellow classmates jumped out of the window, one by one, and ran to a funeral home across the street, seeking refuge.

    The gunman entered the school. After he was inside, two officers from the Uvalde Police Department arrived, engaged the gunman and were immediately met with gunfire, officials said. Both were shot.

    I don’t know when or if these two cops were shot, but it seems they were letting people with law enforcement credentials or connections to go in, and nobody else.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  33. It’s been 23 years since since Columbine.

    And 331 dead students.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  34. Should read “And 331 dead students and teachers.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  35. Texas Gov. Abbott Dismisses Calls for Stronger Gun Laws, Points to Chicago Violence
    ……..
    “I hate to say this, but there are more people shot every weekend in Chicago than there are in schools in Texas,” Mr. Abbott said Wednesday.
    ……..
    Mr. Abbott said stronger regulations on firearms are ineffective and won’t stop crime.

    “Chicago and LA and New York disprove that thesis,” Mr. Abbott said. “Chicago teaches that what you’re talking about is not a real solution. Our job is to come up with real solutions that we can implement.”
    ……….
    Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker and Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot, both Democrats, said Mr. Abbott was feeding a false narrative about Chicago and Illinois. The governor noted that most guns used in Chicago crimes come from outside Illinois.
    ……….
    Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti said the city has become a national model by taking action to reduce gun violence, and now has one of the lowest gun death rates per capita in the U.S. “We know that fewer guns means fewer chances for the accidents, tragedies, and crimes that devastate our families and communities,” the Democrat said.
    ………
    The homicide rate in Texas per 100,000 total population was 7.6 in 2020, according to the latest data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In Illinois, the rate was 11.2 per 100,000 total population, while California was 6.1 and New York was 4.7. Mississippi had the highest rate, at 20.5.

    State rankings were adjusted for differences in age-distribution and population size, but don’t take into account other specific population characteristics that may affect the level of mortality. The homicide rate isn’t exclusive to deaths by guns and includes other weapons.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. Chicago has fairly good laws, but they never were enforced with jail time.

    And in New York it worked until recently when a number of changes were adopted — less stop question and frisk and less or more uncertain or postponed time in jail.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  37. I read the article. I think it shows several things

    1. The police response to this was wrong and had it been better would have reduced the death toll.
    2. There are things the school could have done to make its students more safe, but you can find school shootings in places that had done those things.
    3. The town has not been getting good value for the money it spent on police.
    4. The idea that “a good guy with a gun is the solution to a bad guy with a gun” has been proven ineffective here. This is a blue collar Texas town. It’s about as much of a pro-gun self sufficient place as you can get in the US and it didn’t help. Literally all the guns in Texas didn’t stop this.

    Time123 (fcfc1c)

  38. I don’t understand how any of that happened. None of it is right.

    Here’s what should’ve happened:

    When the funeral home made the 911 call, the police should’ve notified the school of weapons fire in the area and the school should’ve locked down (all classroom and exterior doors locked. Lights out. blinds lowered, students seated on the floor) or when a staff member heard gunfire or otherwise became aware of the danger they should’ve instituted a lockdown. The gunman should’ve have been able to get into a classroom.

    Once the lockdown was declared one of two thing could have happened. There are 2 theories about what to do in a school shooting situation: Defensive posture or move to safety. In the defensive posture, you stay hunkered down in the classroom until released by the police. In a move to safety plan, if you can determine where the gunman is and you can move your classes in safety to a safer place, then you should do so.

    After Columbine the wait and see approach for police arriving on the scene was pretty much abandoned. Everyone has their own standard for entry, but it definitely isn’t “wait around for an hour”.

    I can understand why the parents wanted to go in AND why the police wanted them to stay out, but you can’t expect parents not to try to save their kids if they can’t seen any progress on anyone else saving them.

    There should’ve been a plan on how to release students to their parents once they were able to do so.

    And IMO any police officer who went in to save their own kids and didn’t try to save all the kids should have to stand at attention while the parents who lost kids beat them with baseball bats.

    Nic (896fdf)

  39. Evil compounded, Nic. An evil bad seed with evil motives who found nothing in his way to the means and opportunity to commit evil crimes until he had killed 19 children.

    nk (17e93b)

  40. . The idea that “a good guy with a gun is the solution to a bad guy with a gun” has been proven ineffective here. This is a blue collar Texas town. It’s about as much of a pro-gun self sufficient place as you can get in the US and it didn’t help. Literally all the guns in Texas didn’t stop this.

    Time123 (fcfc1c) — 5/26/2022 @ 4:38 pm

    Absolute nonsense. The school is a gun free zone. Parents tried to go in and get their kids and the police arrested them. A good guy with a gun stops millions of incidents thatnkever make the papers.

    NJRob (fbe422)

  41. @38. Small town Texas, Nic.

    They need some experienced media professionals running the show on camera, too. These babbling spokespersons in beige cowboy hats look and sound like fools.

    DCSCA (3fc997)

  42. During the first wave of the Pearl Harbor attack, many of the soldiers and sailors did the wrong things. There was one notable exception: There were picket ships and airplanes whose commanders had a simple task: Challenge any intruders into the harbor. And they did just that, sinking some of the midget subs. The American sailors had been trained to watch for intruders, and they reacted correctly.

    The accounts of Uvalde police behavior so far — assuming they are mostly accurate — suggest a force unready for this kind of attack, probably because their training had not covered similar scenarios. And, even more disturbing, a breakdown in discipline — again assuming these early reports are mostly accurate.

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  43. @35. Texas Gov. Abbott Dismisses Calls for Stronger Gun Laws, Points to Chicago Violence

    Governor Whataboutism; he’s an American embarrassment– and useless:

    This time, Gov. Greg Abbott has few suggestions on how the state might prevent future mass shootings

    ‘After previous mass killings during his more than seven years in office, Abbott has pledged that lawmakers and his administration would search for solutions. He made no substantive suggestions Wednesday. Six mass shootings have occurred in Texas during Gov. Greg Abbott’s 7½ years in office. He has offered prayers and condemned each.

    The murders of five police officers in Dallas were “acts of cowardice.” The killing of 26 in Sutherland Springs was a “horrific act.” The high school shooting in Santa Fe that took 10 lives was an “act of evil.” The slaying of 23 at an El Paso Walmart was a “senseless act of violence” while the shooting deaths of seven in Midland-Odessa three weeks later were a “senseless and cowardly act.” The slaughter of 21 at an elementary school in Uvalde was a “senseless crime,” which, Abbott added at a news conference Wednesday, “could have been worse.”

    In the past, Abbott has suggested state leaders could do something — would do something — to prevent the next mass shooting. That same call to action was missing from the governor’s remarks at Uvalde High School. Though at times his voice wavered in anger, Abbott made no specific proposals for the coming legislative session to address gun violence. He raised no issue with the fact that the alleged shooter had been able to purchase two rifles and 375 rounds of ammunition without raising suspicion. He suggested mental illness drove the troubled young man to violence and called for increased access to health care.

    “I asked the sheriff and others an open-ended question … ‘What is the problem here?’” Abbott said. “And they were straightforward and emphatic — they said we have a problem with mental health illness in this community and then they elaborated on the magnitude of the mental health challenges they are facing in the community and the need for more mental health support in this region.”

    But Abbott also said authorities were unaware of any criminal or mental illness history of 18-year-old Salvador Ramos that could have identified him as a potential threat. Abbott said there was “no meaningful forewarning of this crime” other than Facebook posts Ramos made minutes before the shooting that he was going to target an elementary school. The social media company clarified that these were private messages Ramos exchanged with someone else.

    Abbott praised the “amazing courage” of law enforcement personnel, without which he said the death toll would have been higher. [Premature- perhaps not as “courageous” as his sales pitch implies.] Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw said a school resource officer “engaged” Ramos outside, yet did not fire his weapon nor prevent Ramos from entering the building through a back door. As he has in the past, Abbott rejected calls for stricter gun laws, arguing that cities and states which attempt to limit access to firearms still suffer from gun violence.

    “I hate to say this, but there are more people shot every weekend in Chicago than there are in schools in Texas,” Abbott said. “We need to realize that people who think, ‘Well, maybe if we implement tougher gun laws, it’s going to solve it,’ Chicago, LA and New York disprove that thesis.”

    Abbott on Wednesday praised the Legislature’s efforts in the 2019 session to improve school safety. These laws, suggested by a task force Abbott had created after the Santa Fe shooting, improved mental health resources for students and made it easier for teachers to arm themselves. None restricted Texans’ access to firearms. Some of the task force’s more ambitious ideas, like allowing courts to seize guns from individuals deemed unsafe to themselves or others, never gained support in the Republican-dominated Legislature.

    “We consider what we did in 2019 to be one of the most profound legislative sessions, not just in Texas, that we’ve seen in any state in addressing school shootings,” Abbott said. “We will continue to discuss with legislators all the potential avenues and pathways we can take to make sure schools will be even safer going forward.” -source, https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/25/uvalde-texas-shooting-greg-abbott-response/

    DCSCA (3fc997)

  44. I probabably should add that, during the first six months of the war in the Pacific (and in North Africa), American soldiers and sailors made many blunders because most were unready psychologically, and most had not been trained for the situations they faced. (For a sad example, read about the Battle of Savo Island.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  45. Hi Jim.

    It was 1942.
    Psychology was an exotic word in a spelling bee.
    Many sailors learned to swim in basic training.

    steveg (e7c966)

  46. When you’ve got Abbott yet again shouting ‘evil,’ pointing fingers at other locales and asking for the usual thoughts, prayers and yellow ribbons with the WSJ quilling editorials blaming ‘society’ of all things as the talking point to follow, you know the hard righties are runnin’ out of excuses for inaction. These Congressional clowns just voted to give to non-taxpaying, non-U.S,. citizens in Ukraine $40 billion in less than three weeks while 10 years after Sandy Hook they’ve left American kids remain vulnerable targets just going to school… Ukraine knows God helps those who help themselves– so they’re helping themselves to our money.

    The Senate is on recess until June 6; those 19 kids and 2 teachers– along w/one of their spouses- are on recess for Eternity. This is why American Populismis boiling– and boiling mad– and folks ‘storm the castle.’ Biden whines he can’t do anything w/o Congress. His party runs it; and if he had Truman’s balls and LBJ’s guts, he’d call them weenies back into session, tgweist some arms, do some deal and get something done.

    DCSCA (3fc997)

  47. I’ve updated the post with Wolf Blitzer asking Texas DPS Lieutenant Chris Olivarez about why the police were reluctant to engage with the shooter. Short answer: “they might have been shot.”

    Dana (2c7c1d)

  48. @47. “they might have been shot.”

    Uvalde, TX is 80 miles west of San Antonio. Forget remembering the Alamo; recall Fort Courage instead; home to F-Troop.

    DCSCA (3fc997)

  49. Seriously, Dana, people who think their inanities are witticisms that they must share with the rest of us should be placed in moderation when the subject is the slaughter of 19 children.

    nk (17e93b)

  50. And thank you, Dana, for this series of posts, as sad as they are. Superior to anything I’ve seen in the news aggregators.

    nk (17e93b)

  51. Didnt think it could get worse, but it did. thanks, Dana, for posting this too, wasnt easy

    EPWJ (ded958)

  52. @Dana@47 Then they should resign. What use is a police officer who won’t put their life on the line for children.

    Nic (896fdf)

  53. @52 I think we’re seeing a serious disconnect with what people believe is true, or what they want to be true, and reality. I’m guessing there are a lot of commenters here who think it’s the lock on their door that keeps their house from getting robbed.

    @37 He was stopped by someone with a gun correct? He didn’t run out of ammo correct? So, this is basically the opposite of what you think has been shown? The only thing this proves is that you can’t trust cops to be the good guys with guns.

    frosty (648974)

  54. You would think that Gov Abbot would see the need to step in here and start firing people.

    Kevin M (eca4d2)

  55. And IMO any police officer who went in to save their own kids and didn’t try to save all the kids should have to stand at attention while the parents who lost kids beat them with baseball bats.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKmJPnAGUJk

    Kevin M (eca4d2)

  56. You would think that Gov Abbot would see the need to step in here and start firing people.

    But apparently he’s stuck in the same old argument. So is the other side, which is why the eelctorate is looking for a third way. But Trump didn’t work.

    Kevin M (eca4d2)

  57. @4 and @7 This deserves more attention. There are several SCOTUS cases on this. It’s not new and it was reaffirmed after the Parkland shootings.

    There is no general duty requiring any government official, including police, to protect you.

    If you are passionate about gun reform but this is news to you does it give you any reason to pause for a moment to review?

    frosty (648974)

  58. but the NRA is holding a meeting. OMG.

    qualified immunity is a statist joke.

    kaf (6b8885)

  59. “There is no general duty requiring any government official, including police, to protect you.

    If you are passionate about gun reform but this is news to you does it give you any reason to pause for a moment to review?”

    What do you think would have happened if a parent pulled out a gun and headed towards the school?

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  60. The whole story about an armed on-duty officer now becomes memory-holed. Was there such an officer? What did he do? Why was the school not put on lockdown when the first shots were fired, instead of several minutes later after he has already entered a classroom?

    Kevin M (e77eac)

  61. Also, was this classroom open to the outside? Could no one take a shot at him from there? (I’m guessing he drew the blinds, but they really need to explain this).

    Kevin M (e77eac)

  62. Also, why did the officers take an hour to get the master key from the principal?

    Kevin M (e77eac)

  63. The police will probably have a new story for us tomorrow.

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  64. @63 hope its a good one.

    asset (d927a3)

  65. The real problem. Conservative our white voters say Mandatory jail time for gun crimes fill up the jails with gang members. Liberals our black brown and white voters say Ban guns. No mandatory jail time for gang members. End mass incarceration! Conservatives have better argument ;but liberal voters say RACIST! and will cancel or worse. So nothing gets done.

    asset (d927a3)

  66. Frosty and NJRob; to be clear, while this incident did eventually end with a someone shooting the murderer the fact that over a dozen children were killed before that could happen makes that solution unacceptable. Most people use “solution” and “solution with acceptable outcomes” interchangeably.

    Other solutions that aren’t good enough include; waiting for him to get bored with shooting children and leave, letting him shoot as many children as he wanted and turn himself in, and him shooting as many children as he liked before the eventual heat death of the sun. All of those are technically ‘solutions’, but non-sociopaths will generally find them unacceptable.

    This was a well armed blue collar town in a deep red state that’s steeped in gun culture. The previous school schooling was a high school in Lk Orion; which is another well armed area. It’s clear to me that managing school shooting with counter fire after they start isn’t yielding acceptable results and maybe we need to look more at prevention.

    The right wing approach seems to be focused on hardening schools. Turn them into fortresses with One entrance with metal detectors and invasive searchers of anyone who wants to enter.

    From what I’ve seen a lot of places are doing that to the extent they are able.

    The left wing approach is reduce the accessibility of guns.
    This is not being tried for reasons I laid out in a previous thread.

    I expect that very little will change and that the USA will continue to be the only nation on earth where school children are regularly shot to death by heavily armed mentally unwell people who have legally obtained weapons specifically designed to kill people at close to medium range.

    Time123 (fcfc1c)

  67. “There is no general duty requiring any government official, including police, to protect you.

    A little legal knowledge is a dangerous thing. There is a duty to not impede or dissuade another person from coming to someone’s rescue, whether through force, deception, or chickening out in the middle.

    nk (69e0f5)

  68. @58 Why wouldn’t the NRA hold a meeting immediately after a bunch of children are massacred with gun?

    The NRA isn’t concerned with school shootings. They’re concerned with increasing gun sales, donations, and strengthening their position as a right wing lifestyle brand.

    Their core demographic *LOVES* guns.
    Their secondary demographic are deeply aggrieved people convinced they’re losing an existential culture war with a deceitful ‘elite’ that hates them.

    Neither group is receptive to the NRA changing their plan. They want culture war leaders that fight at all costs. Moving the convention, or delaying it until after the funerals, isn’t fighting, and might be construed as some acknowledgment that access to guns is part of the problem.

    Alternative explanations such as “we need to arm more people in schools” or “the school wasn’t sufficiently fortified”. More help for the mentally unwell is another thing that might help, but that’s getting less play. I suspect because it would me increased social spending and more government intervention.

    Time123 (fcfc1c)

  69. Kevin M (eca4d2) — 5/26/2022 @ 8:46 pm

    My family has suffered violence from the mentally ill, none died though, thanks be to G*D. That said, the thought has just occurred to me that the face of Boomhauer, from King of the Hill, bears a resemblance to Chuck Connors.

    felipe (484255)

  70. “Qualified immunity” is a lie that Ted Cruz tells. It only applies to federal suits under Section 1983 (a/k/a The Ku Klux Klan Acts).

    To shift the blame to the Supreme Court for the myriad institutional protections that bad cops enjoy; formally and informally; locally and nationally; by law, by Blue Wall, by union contract, and by turning a blind eye; for reasons of political clout, patronage, to shield the governments’ coffers, and authority worship.

    nk (69e0f5)

  71. Evil is not a mental illness.

    Raising unhindered gun ownership to a moral imperative may be a mental illness, although personally I’d vote “evil” on that too.

    This monster would not have been able to storm a school and kill 19 children in the space of minutes if he did not have the kind of weapon he had.

    nk (69e0f5)

  72. This monster would not have been able to storm a school and kill 19 children in the space of minutes if he did not have the kind of weapon he had.

    What should we do about this guy and/or his kind of weapon?

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

    Some sort of new law, I guess.

    BuDuh (340919)

  73. Raising unhindered gun ownership to a moral imperative may be a mental illness, although personally I’d vote “evil” on that too.

    This monster would not have been able to storm a school and kill 19 children in the space of minutes if he did not have the kind of weapon he had.

    nk (69e0f5) — 5/27/2022 @ 6:22 am

    That’s two nice strawmen you’ve got there. Did you have to pay extra for the better hay or did you get a volume discount?

    No one is raising unhindered gun ownership to a moral imperative.

    Without knowing more about the facts, given the time he had, I’d think he could have killed just as many people with a variety of weapons.

    A little legal knowledge is a dangerous thing. There is a duty to not impede or dissuade another person from coming to someone’s rescue, whether through force, deception, or chickening out in the middle.

    nk (69e0f5) — 5/27/2022 @ 5:31 am

    I’m not sure I understand this one. Can you elaborate on this duty? Police routinely impede or dissuade other people from coming to someone’s rescue for a variety of reasons. Some of them are actually valid.

    frosty (772d90)

  74. I don’t expect, nor intend, to persuade any gun enthusiast by argument. Gun control is way too polarized. When it happens, it will only be by “the will of the stronger”. Hopefully, the “stronger” being a majority in a democratic process.

    I’m not sure I understand this one. Can you elaborate on this duty?

    No. Go to law school.

    nk (69e0f5)

  75. Buduh, that’s a useful link. it illustrates that it takes years of practice to use a revolver in a way that approaches the efficacy of a semi-automatic and that being able to do so is a noteworthy skill.

    Unless point was that there’s no difference between a revolver and a semi-auto in effectiveness then it’s a dumb point.

    But you’re not dumb so I’ll assume you were going with the former rather then the later,

    Time123 (9b76f4)

  76. “Evil is not a mental illness”

    Absolutely true, and obvious, and your statement may serve to persuade a reader that I conflate the two. I do not, because I know of what I speak. The individual that caused my family’s suffering was mentally ill (as determined by a qualified MD not me), and not evil.

    Do wish for me to say “His actions were absolutely evil!”, will this satisfy you? His actions were absolutely evil! There, be satisfied.

    I believe in G*D, and that means I believe that Satan exists. Yes, evil is real- Pelosi’s obstinate support of abortion is an evil action because abortion is evil; but is Pelosi evil, rather than sinfully wrong? Before I would ever say that so and so IS evil, I would need as much proof as I would in a claim of a demonic possession. Yes, I know, “but Pelosi did not personally…” That objection is to kind of action. and that serves my point; one can say Pelosi, is not evil (and I agree) because she merely supported abortion. I say an M.D. who performs thousands of abortions, also, is not evil, even while abortion is murder. Do you understand this position? Understanding it does not mean you agree with it.

    I do not think it is too fine a point, that I differentiate evil actions from Evil itself – even when the actions are on this scale. Competent experts can no longer examine the mind of the decedent, so we can never know his state of mind at the time of the murders. The current cry of “so and so was evil”, is hyperbole suited for exacting revenge, not justice. I will not engage in it.

    This monster would not have been able to storm a school and kill 19 children in the space of minutes if he did not have the kind of weapon he had.
    nk (69e0f5) — 5/27/2022 @ 6:22 am

    Oh brother! The same can be said if the weapon had jammed …if he did not have his sight. …if the school door had been locked. If if if! Wasn’t “If!” a famous response?

    felipe (484255)

  77. It is a waste of Time, to engage you. You really don’t care.

    BuDuh (340919)

  78. No. Go to law school.
    nk (69e0f5) — 5/27/2022 @ 6:58 am

    Heh! One must remember to whom they are speaking. A lawyer giving out free advice! Really. And even so, nk is not YOUR lawyer. [we miss you, Beldar]

    felipe (484255)

  79. frosty (772d90) — 5/27/2022 @ 6:36 am

    Without knowing more about the facts, given the time he had, I’d think he could have killed just as many people with a variety of weapons.

    The first two police maybe wouldn’t have retreated if wasn’t armed with such a terrible weapon. Moere could have escaped, by other methods besides playing dead.

    https://www.lismorecitynews.com.au/story/7756009/timeline-of-texas-school-shooting/?cs=27567

    * 11.44am – Officers from multiple law enforcement agencies begin to converge on the school. The gunman shoots at the first officers, who move back and take cover, before approaching the suspect again.

    Around this time, the shooter enters a classroom and massacres the students and teachers inside. Officers report hearing at least 25 gunshots from the classroom soon after arriving at the scene.

    The question is: Did the shooting stop?

    * 11.40am to about 12.40pm – Officers on the scene call for more help, requesting tactical teams, body armour, precision snipers and hostage negotiators.

    You use hostage negotiators once you have established contact with the perpetratr, and make clear to him that if any attempt is made to harm a captive, they will move in.

    * About 12.40pm – U.S. Border Patrol tactical teams arrive, enter the classroom, and kill the suspect.

    Were any people inside in danger at that time?

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  80. The first two police maybe wouldn’t have retreated if wasn’t armed with such a terrible weapon.

    Yesterday:

    CHARLESTON, W.Va. — A woman in West Virginia fatally shot a man who began firing an AR-15-style rifle into a crowd of people that had gathered for a party, authorities said.

    Dennis Butler, 37, was killed Wednesday night after he pulled out the rifle and began shooting at dozens of people attending the birthday-graduation party outside an apartment complex in the city of Charleston, police said in a statement.

    The woman, who was attending the party, drew a pistol and fired, killing Butler, the statement said. No one at the party was injured.

    “Instead of running from the threat, she engaged with the threat and saved several lives last night,” Chief of Detectives Tony Hazelett told news outlets Thursday.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-woman-killed-man-fired-rifle-party-crowd-85002437

    BuDuh (340919)

  81. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/uvalde-police-response-17202843.php

    It remains unclear when the scene changed from an active shooter to a potential hostage barricade situation, a transition that could have altered the police response, San Antonio Police Chief William McManus said….

    ….Escalon said officials believe Ramos shot most of his victims soon after entering the classrooms….

    ….“We still don’t know all the particulars,” said former Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo, “but we’re starting to learn the response was not consistent with 21st century, modern day responses to active shooters.”

    In Houston, officers are now trained to respond to active-shooter situations by doing whatever necessary to end that threat, said Acevedo, who led the department from late 2016 to March 2021.

    “If you’re the first cop, the only cop, you still need to act, to act aggressively to end the threat,” he said. “You run toward gunfire and engage the suspect.”

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  82. The shooter may have over-adjusted for gravity.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  83. Were any people inside in danger at that time?
    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee) — 5/27/2022 @ 7:57 am

    Oh Sammy! You should not set yourself up like that. I hope no one knocks it out of the park.

    felipe (484255)

  84. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/26/us/mass-shooting-school-security.html

    …There are some simple, inexpensive measures that are protective, according to those who have studied school shootings. One of them is keeping classroom doors locked, which was a district requirement in Uvalde.

    It is not clear whether that practice was being followed at Robb Elementary on the day of the shooting. The shooting occurred after an awards ceremony, when relatives said they had come in and out of the building….

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  85. https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-woman-killed-man-fired-rifle-party-crowd-85002437

    BuDuh (340919) — 5/27/2022 @ 8:18 am

    I would not be surprised to learn that she had spent much time developing the muscle-memory, situational awareness and composure required for such a heroic feat.

    felipe (484255)

  86. I agree, felipe. Pretty much exactly what one expects law enforcement training to entail.

    BuDuh (340919)

  87. felipe (484255) — 5/27/2022 @ 8:33 am

    Oh Sammy! You should not set yourself up like that. I hope no one knocks it out of the park.

    They were in sporadic contact with the shooter (he would answer his phone [well, his grandmother’s phone] but hang up) and listening for further shots.

    But how far into this?

    Did they think there was nobody left for him to shoot when CBP stotmed in?

    This is some of what we have:

    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/uvalde-police-response-17202843.php

    Police tried to negotiate with Ramos while he was barricaded inside the locked classroom, Uvalde Mayor Don McLaughlin said.

    “Once that shooter was in the barricade, I was in there with the hostage negotiator,” McLaughlin said. “He would answer (the call), hang up.”

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  88. So who was he hoping had called??

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  89. Looking at the wording of the link that you reposted, felipe, gave me a interesting thought. If someone just reads the “police-woman-killed-man-fired-rifle-party-crowd” title and doesn’t open the link they would believe that a “police woman” killed the jerk. Anymore I believe this stuff is intentional. “Armed-citizen-saves-everyone…” is not part of the script.

    BuDuh (340919)

  90. It’s probably safer to freeze the situation — but the situation has to actually have been frozen.

    \now probably only the police have the credibility to do that (because there are many of them, sll ot of range, and the shooter is trapped and maybe doesn’t want to die\0

    According to a \Democratic politician,, it’s all unclear:

    From the Houston Chronicle:

    On Thursday, U.S. Rep. Joaquin Castro, D-San Antonio, sent a letter to FBI Director Christopher Wray urging him to “thoroughly examine the timeline of events.”

    “The people of Uvalde, of Texas, and of the nation deserve an accurate account of what transpired,” Castro wrote. “A block of time between 11:30 a.m. and 1 p.m. local time has yet to be fully accounted for.”

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  91. This is why American Populismis boiling– and boiling mad– and folks ‘storm the castle.’

    They aren’t “storming the castle” for more gun control-they really believe that ” the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” without any limits.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  92. You are right! Good catch. There it was, evidence of the narrative, right under my nose.

    felipe (484255)

  93. The same Joaquin Castro that fell for this hoax:

    This thread from a man who claims @GregAbbott_TX sent a representative to offer money to pose w/the governor for #Uvalde has gone ultra-viral with the left. But I looked into who is really behind the account. Jason R. Nauertz, 43, is not from Texas. He’s from Spokane, Wash.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1529992524986830854

    But, Andy Ngo…. so… please ignore or insult or both.

    BuDuh (340919)

  94. Guns

    We protect our President with guns
    We protect our Congressmen with guns
    We protect our Governors with guns
    We protect our Judges and Courts with guns
    We protect our celebrities with guns
    We protect our banks with guns
    We protect our sporting events with guns
    We protect our jewelry stores with guns

    We protect our schools with a sign that reads “This Is A Gun Free Zone”, and then call people with guns if there is an emergency

    USCCA

    Horatio (caf0fa)

  95. Manchin calls for ‘commonsense’ gun limits, resists filibuster reform
    ……..
    Pressed on whether he would consider scrapping the filibuster to tighten the nation’s gun laws, he warned that it would lead to chaos in the Senate.

    “The filibuster is the only thing that prevents us from total insanity. Total insanity,” he said.
    …….
    Manchin and Sen. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.) had championed legislation in 2013 to expand background checks prior to gun sales, a proposal that came in direct response to the shooting massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., several months earlier. The bill failed to win the 60 votes needed to overcome the GOP filibuster. Following the mass shooting in Buffalo, N.Y., on May 14, Manchin said he still supports his proposal with Toomey, but without 60 votes in the Senate, he questioned the practicality of bringing it to the floor for a vote. It would be better, he argued, to consider reform proposals that had the support to become law. ……

    This is why I am so cynical about anything being different after this massacre. It’s the same old same old. Nothing happened after Columbine, Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Sutherland Baptist, San Jose, El Paso, Virginia Beach, Sutherland Springs, Las Vegas, or Orlando, so why should Americans expect anything different? There is no political price to be paid for opposing changes to gun laws (most of which are at the state level).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  96. “But, Andy Ngo…. so… please ignore or insult or both.”

    I haven’t seen this prior to your link, so I think Andy is lying (as he often does) about how “ultra-viral” it actually is.

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  97. Because you roll with the viral twitter cool kids?

    BuDuh (340919)

  98. Confronted with mass shootings, Texas Republicans have repeatedly loosened gun laws

    In the past few years, Texas Republicans have been quick to consider a crackdown on gun violence after a mass shooting.

    They did so in 2018 after a 17-year-old entered Santa Fe High School and killed 10 people. Then again in 2019, when two mass shootings weeks apart occurred in El Paso at a Walmart and then in Midland and Odessa after a dismissed worker opened fire.

    But when lawmakers have reconvened in Austin in the months after a mass shooting, those same leaders tend to fall silent on any restrictive measures when it comes to guns. In the last two legislative sessions, Texas legislators have loosened gun laws, most notably by passing permitless carry in 2021, less than two years after mass shootings in El Paso and Odessa took the lives of 30 people.
    ………
    …..[T]he political reaction after previous mass shootings in the state has followed a repetitive pattern.

    When a then-17-year-old student killed 10 people and injured 13 more in an art classroom in Santa Fe, near Houston, in 2018, Abbott called on state lawmakers to consider a “red flag” law that would allow state courts to take firearms away from a person who presents a danger to themselves or others.

    A few months later, he backed away from the idea after Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick and gun rights activists drew a hard line against it. The state ended up passing laws more focused on boosting mental health resources and giving teachers more access to guns on public school campuses.

    In August 2019, after 23 people were killed by an avowed racist at an El Paso Walmart, and a few weeks later, seven more people were killed in a shooting spree in Midland and Odessa, Abbott and Patrick discussed expanding background checks to include stranger-to-stranger gun sales.

    By the end of the next legislative session in 2021, Patrick had gone silent on the issue. And the Legislature instead passed a bill long sought by gun rights advocates that allows Texans to openly carry a handgun without a permit.

    …….[A]ppearing on Fox News on Tuesday evening, (Patrick) told host Tucker Carlson that more could be done.

    “We have to harden these targets so that no one can get in ever except through one entrance,” he said. “Maybe that would help. Maybe that would stop someone.”
    ………
    “You’re not gonna get a majority of people in the Legislature to ever vote for gun control,” said state Rep. Harold Dutton, the chair of the House Public Education Committee. “I’m not sure we’ll ever have a legislative response to it. And I know, in Texas, it’s probably not going to happen. We’re simply going to wait for the next crisis to occur.”
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  99. “They aren’t “storming the castle” for more gun control-they really believe that ” the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” without any limits.”

    What’s funny is that they acknowledge limits without admitting them. The Second Amendment and the concept of a state monopoly on force are incompatible. The police are free to kill anyone with a gun that they deem “threatening”, and there’s minimal pushback from 2nd amendment supporters.

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  100. “Because you roll with the viral twitter cool kids?”

    What does “ultra-viral” mean?

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  101. Why do you care?

    BuDuh (340919)

  102. Texas Police Lieutenant Says Cops Were Reluctant to Engage Gunman Because ‘They Could’ve Been Shot’
    ………
    On Thursday’s The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer, the host discussed the Tuesday’s horrifying events with DPS Lt. Chris Olivarez.

    Blitzer asked his guest if officers at the scene made the correct choice to wait for backup before they went after the gunman.

    Olivarez said officers were inside the school quickly, and they heard gunfire when they arrived. They called for reinforcements, he said. The officers in the building waited for a special tactical team to show up as they isolated the shooter to one classroom.

    “Don’t current best practices, don’t they call for officers to disable a shooter as quickly as possible, regardless of how many officers are actually on site?” Blitzer asked him.

    Olivarez said the officers who arrived at the school quickly might have been shot had they attempted to take out the gunman alone…..

    Better 19 children dead than a couple of cops. What happened to self-sacrifice for the greater good?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  103. Give me some crazy pills and an hour and I could kill 17 kids with desks and chairs.

    The weapons carried scared the police. The AR15 or the AK47 look scarier than a wood Mini 14, but any well designed, well made, reasonably maintained semi auto rifle is going to kill efficiently and will be equally dangerous as an AR.

    Key part of “school shooter” would lead me to believe they are going to have a gun. Unless its a full auto M249, the approach seems like it would be the same. Shooter is armed with a semi auto high velocity weapon(s). They always are. The color, shape is of no consequence, the urgency remains the same.

    The one thing I have not done is listen to audio of the entire incident. If there is an initial flurry of gunfire from the shooter and then silence for the rest of the hour, I could be more forgiving toward law enforcement.

    steveg (cd5bb5)

  104. Don McLean, Lee Greenwood exit NRA concert after Texas shooting

    Don McLean, Lee Greenwood and two other country crooners said Thursday they would not perform at a National Rifle Association concert this weekend, citing the massacre at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas.
    ………
    Larry Gatlin and Larry Stewart, two other performers who were on the concert lineup, confirmed Thursday afternoon they would also drop out because of the tragedy in Uvalde. Hours later, “God Bless the U.S.A.” singer Lee Greenwood said he would exit, too.
    ……..
    Jacob Bryant, one of the other singers on the lineup, confirmed that he is still scheduled to perform. Representatives for two other performs set to appear — T. Graham Brown and Danielle Peck — did not immediately reply to requests for comment Thursday.
    ……..

    That’ll shame the NRA-no “American Pie”!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  105. “If there is an initial flurry of gunfire from the shooter and then silence for the rest of the hour, I could be more forgiving toward law enforcement.”

    The authorities now say that local officers first entered the school at 11:35, two minutes after the gunman, and that there were 19 officers in the hallway by 12:03 p.m., but that they did not breach the door and kill the gunman until 12:50, even as they continued to hear him firing.

    link

    Davethulhu (ee3282)

  106. The weapons carried scared the police.

    Then maybe they shouldn’t be cops. I don’t know about Uvalde PD, but LAPD officers can purchase and use on duty AR-15 rifles as well as semi-auto shotguns.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  107. so many things in the multiple layers of safeguards went tragically wrong, well before the cops started making incredibly bad errors in judgment

    I’m fixated on the lockdown drills my kids have to practice regularly, and how just that one safeguard would’ve likely prevented everything that followed after

    the time between the incident at the funeral home and when he approached the school was more than ample to get lockdown procedures in place, so what happened?

    there are many people who were in positions of trust who are not entitled to a good night’s sleep for the rest of their lives, and if they have a conscience they won’t get any

    focusing on what their legal obligations are is really pointless, and let’s them off the hook

    JF (e44c58)

  108. SteveG, I think you’re using high velocity when you should be using high energy. You’re right that any high energy round is going to be a ppl killer and there are a lot of weapons that fire ammo of sufficient energy (1/2*m*v^2) to kill a person. The .223 or 5.56 are both energetic enough to kill a person, and small enough that you can easily cary many of them.

    A lot of guns will fire them.

    For whatever reason AR15’s are the most popular so those get the focus. But any effective law is going to have to broadly reduce access to weapons designed to quickly fire a large number of high energy rounds of sufficient energy to kill a person.

    Time123 (fcfc1c)

  109. I disagree with the idea that people who cling onto “shall not be infringed” all want no limits.
    As noted, we’ve already tacitly agreed to many limits without storming the castle. I draw the line at an AR because its simply a good rifle. Sure a piece of shit would be less deadly (to others at least) but thats not how the 2A has worked historically.
    In CA I can buy an AR15 style rifle that shoots a .22LR center fire, put a 30 round magazine in it, carrying extra magazines would be easy because they are light and smaller. Killing elementary school kids might be somewhat faster with a 5.56 AR because I would not have to shoot as many kids twice, but it would still probably take more time to barricade the door than to shoot 17 kids.

    Ban the AR and AK and they’ll just buy .22 (or illegal guns)

    steveg (cd5bb5)

  110. Gun company hides online, drops out of NRA convention after being linked to Uvalde, Texas shooting

    (Daniel Defense, the) gun manufacturer that produced the AR-15-style assault rifle the Uvalde, Texas elementary school shooter used to kill 19 children and two teachers, has shut down its social media accounts after being linked to the massacre. It has also reportedly dropped out of the National Rifle Association’s annual convention set to be held starting Friday in Houston.
    …….
    On Wednesday, one of the company’s social media posts resurfaced from a week ago on May 16, the day Ramos turned 18. That week, he legally purchased two AR-15-style assault rifles, including the Daniel Defense DDM V7 rifle, according to the Washington Post.

    “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it,” the post said, in reference to a Biblical proverb, followed by a prayer emoji. The post included a photo of a toddler sitting with an AR-15-style assault rifle on its lap. Daniel Defense also reportedly posted the same image and text on Instagram that day, which included the hashtag #childrenarethefuture.

    Both posts have since been deleted …..

    Daniel Defense had planned to hold an exhibitor’s booth at the NRA’s annual convention, being held this Friday through Sunday in Houston, and had stated it was “proud to reunite with thousands of patriots.” However, those plans appear to have been scrapped as the NRA’s list of vendors no longer includes the gunmaker, per the Washington Post.
    ………..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  111. 11:28 a.m. Ramos crashes his truck into a concrete drainage ditch near Robb Elementary School. He jumps out of the passenger side, carrying a longarm rifle and a bag later determined to be full of ammunition. He then fires at two people at a funeral home across the street from his wrecked vehicle and continues walking toward the school. He climbs a fence and enters the school parking lot, firing at the building multiple times.

    11:40 a.m. Ramos walks into the west side of Robb Elementary School and shoots multiple rounds. He then enters the building through an unlocked door.

    there needs to be much more focus on these twelve minutes, as opposed to anything after

    but there isn’t much political gain to be had, so it probably isn’t that important

    JF (e44c58)

  112. @108-

    Apparently there is such a thing as bad PR. Cowards.

    Rip Murdock (cc3f41)

  113. Rip, I saw that, great example of fetishizing guns.

    Don’t get me wrong. I like guns. I own several. I shoot them for fun and I teach my kids how to safely handle and discharge them.

    But I look at some of the ways people around me have made *guns* part of their identity and it’s just really really weird.

    Time123 (fcfc1c)

  114. “Evil is not a mental illness.”

    I also wonder what kind of civil liberty door we are willing to crack open as we try to profile who may or may not be a threat to themselves or others. The Red Flag laws are a microcosm of that. Are you displaying behavior/conduct that might make you a threat? So, yeah, we need to re-culture people to watch for anomalous behavior and have the courage to “out” people who might be a threat, whether they are a know gun owner or a prospective gun owner.

    The NIH estimates over 50 million Americans live with mental illness with varying degrees of severity. Certainly not all of those are a danger, but still where do we start and how much are we willing to invest? Are we really looking to build a government health care bureaucracy to clear who should or shouldn’t own a gun? Let’s just be clear and forthright about what road we are heading down.

    I still favor the Red Flag route provided some kinks are worked out….as well as supervised background checks where any gaps remain. Couple in raising the age for “assault” rifles to what it is for handguns seems reasonable. Even though there’s some arbitrariness, some limit on magazine capacity (let’s say 10) might be worth a try. Yes, people can simply mass a bunch of those but it’s a subtle increase in cost on a rogue shooter without causing much cost to the casual (recreational) shooter. I think those four suggestions would answer the bell of doing something without intruding too deeply into the right of self defense. Make it a running study. I still think there is a cultural component here that now makes mass shootings a thing today when it was far less common prior to 1990. One hears very little about what should be changed in the culture.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  115. Greg Price
    @greg_price11
    The Texas DPS just told us that there were 19 police officers in the hallway at Robb Elementary who made the decision not to break into the room where children were being shot bc they believed it turned into a barricade situation, while children inside were alive and calling 911.
    9:39 AM · May 27, 2022·Twitter Web App
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    Greg Price
    @greg_price11
    ·
    54m
    Replying to
    @greg_price11
    The DPS said it was the Uvalde ISD chief of police who made the call to stop the border patrol tactical unit from entering the school despite the fact that no police officer was injured.

    This is an absolute disgrace.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1530227146177794053

    BuDuh (340919)

  116. The director of the Texas DPS says the school district police chief “made the wrong decision” in treating this as a barricaded shooter instead of an active shooter:

    Steve McCraw, director of the department, said Uvalde Consolidated ISD police chief Pete Arredondo—acting as the incident commander over the active shooter scene Tuesday—made “the wrong decision” in telling officers to wait for backup before engaging the suspected gunman, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos. Arredondo decided the situation amounted to a barricaded subject rather than an active shooter, which prompts a slower and more methodical police response, McCraw said.

    The methodical protocol probably involves law enforcement trying to remove people in the rest of the school, and reports suggest that happened. It may be why people are complaining that some law enforcement tried to get their own children out. Maybe so but my guess is that, if they had children at the school, they knew where their classrooms were and they knew who belonged there and who didn’t. I doubt they only took their children. More likely, they evacuated anyone they found. They would not want to evacuate a shooter, and there could have been others there.

    DRJ (03cb91)

  117. Here is the press conference referred to in my last post:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=SO7JtK1_CWA

    I think the take is mostly accurate by the author of that post with the exception of his claim that no officer was injured. It was clearly stated in the interview that officers received grazing wounds at one point.

    BuDuh (340919)

  118. @59 They would have been shot by the police who were unwilling to stop the active shooter killing kids. And all of the authoritarians would have gleefully used that to explain how guns don’t work, only the police should be armed, etc.

    frosty (56fe7f)

  119. @76 That’s simply not true. Time cares. I think he broke his record confirming his preconceived biases and he did it with conflicting reports. People who don’t care can’t maintain the discipline and consistency we keep having the privilege of witnessing.

    frosty (56fe7f)

  120. I still favor the Red Flag route provided some kinks are worked out….as well as supervised background checks where any gaps remain. Couple in raising the age for “assault” rifles to what it is for handguns seems reasonable.

    Raising the age to 21 is being challenged in the courts.

    …….Laws preventing firearms dealers from selling handguns to young adults under age 21 are unconstitutional, a federal appeals court said Tuesday in a ruling that could have implications for efforts to restrict such sales nationally.

    In a divided decision, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit said the existing minimum age requirement for purchases from federally licensed gun dealers restricts the rights of law-abiding citizens and draws an arbitrary, unjustified line.

    “Despite the weighty interest in reducing crime and violence, we refuse to relegate either the Second Amendment or 18-to-20-year-olds to a second-class status,” wrote Judge Julius N. Richardson.

    The decision, which probably will be appealed to the full court, finds that 18-year-olds possess a Second Amendment right to gun ownership and notes that they were “required at the time of the Founding to serve in the militia and furnish their own weapons,” wrote Richardson, a nominee of President Donald Trump, who was joined by Judge G. Steven Agee, a nominee of President George W. Bush.
    ………

    Source

    And

    …….
    Judge Ryan Nelson, writing for a two-to-one majority in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, struck down a ruling by a federal judge in San Diego that upheld what Judge Nelson called an “almost total ban on semiautomatic” rifles for young adults.

    “America would not exist without the heroism of the young adults who fought and died in our revolutionary army,” Judge Nelson wrote. “Today we reaffirm that our Constitution still protects the right that enabled their sacrifice: the right of young adults to keep and bear arms.”

    Judge Nelson rejected an argument, made by a lower court judge, that young adults “were considered minors or ‘infants’ for most of our country’s history without the rights afforded adults” and were therefore unfit for “responsible firearm possession and use.”
    …….
    The court did uphold a provision in state law requiring adults under 21 who are not serving in the military or in law enforcement to obtain a hunting license to buy shotguns or rifles. That requirement, the judges wrote, amounted to “sensible firearm control” measures, and was therefore constitutional.

    Judge Nelson and Judge Kenneth K. Lee, who were both appointed by President Donald J. Trump, formed the majority opinion; dissenting was Judge Sidney H. Stein, a U.S. District Court judge who was appointed by President Bill Clinton and is sitting by designation on the Court of Appeals.
    ……..
    Handgun purchases by buyers under 21 have long been banned in California. ……
    ……..

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  121. @78 I have some, but not much, sympathy for the officers. They were tested and failed. They’ll never live that down. We’ll see some coping with anger and lies and probably a few suicides.

    For your other question; how would a little kid trapped in a room with someone who wanted to kill him and abandoned by everyone capable of stopping it not be in danger? You understand that even empty most guns make very effective clubs? Even bare handed a little kid won’t last long against an 18yo.

    Even if you did have a hostage situation you know that is by definition a dangerous situation. If it wasn’t there’d be no hostages.

    It’s possible you meant to say was anyone still alive and that’s certainly one way to resolve the dangerous situation.

    frosty (5b7fb3)

  122. No. Go to law school.

    nk (69e0f5) — 5/27/2022 @ 6:58 am

    Ah, then I look forward to how this gets sorted out in court.

    frosty (730b1f)

  123. We shouldn’t think that, once the massacre started, all that many might have been saved by more timely and accurate response.

    But that policeman who came after the first reports of shots fired in the direction of the funeral home, and passed by the gunman and pursued a teacher instead? I guess he didn’t know that the shots fired came from a rifle. He must have thought it had been a concealed weapon, fired at close range, in some kind of a dispute, and the killer was a good guy with a gun.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  124. This monster would not have been able to storm a school and kill 19 children in the space of minutes if he did not have the kind of weapon he had.

    Bollocks. There was nothing and no one stopping him. He could have done the same thing with a revolver and a bag full of bullets.

    Kevin M (eca4d2)

  125. Yes, people can simply mass a bunch of those but it’s a subtle increase in cost on a rogue shooter without causing much cost to the casual (recreational) shooter.

    I’m not sure what the going prices are, but Ramos must have laid out something like $3000-4000 for those guns and ammo. A lot of money for an 18yo. A few more clips would not have made it much more expensive.

    Kevin M (eca4d2)

  126. I would kind of argue for a state-issued license for purchasing guns or ammo, so long as that license is only denied for clear cause. But then I remember that California did that, with a “lifetime” gun buyer’s card that they then cancelled and replaced with something more restricted.

    Kevin M (eca4d2)

  127. Yes, yes, that’s why soldiers and police are armed with revolvers.

    nk (c97cd0)

  128. Mike Baker has a concise and withering tweet on the law enforcement cockup in Uvalde.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  129. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 5/27/2022 @ 10:40 am

    I still favor the Red Flag route provided some kinks are worked out….as well as supervised background checks where any gaps remain.

    Red flags are a gimmick. Most of the time peole won;’t act on it, becaause nobody wants tosic the police on someone or prohibit someone from doing something in a doubtful situation.

    And even when they do it is separate for every gun/

    Green light laws would work, provided that the a person could not casually sign an approval but would stand to lose some mmoney if they were wrong. It would also give someone an excuse to refuse that wouldn’t anger the person refssed. Nor would refusals be permanent or on the record, so more readily made.

    The downside to a green light law is the cost and the bureaucracy to implement, It’s better for avoiding both Type \I and Type II errors than prior police approval.

    The necessity to gain the approval of 10 people also would steer someone to be law abiding (which might stick) , or more to be ingenious but it could also leave more clues.

    Couple in raising the age for “assault” rifles to what it is for handguns seems reasonable. Even though there’s some arbitrariness, some limit on magazine capacity (let’s say 10) might be worth a try.

    Five round magazines are sold by some manufacturers.

    Yes, people can simply mass a bunch of those but it’s a subtle increase in cost on a rogue shooter without causing much cost to the casual (recreational) shooter.

    I was thinking money would be a strong deterrent, (to using a mass murdering kind of weapon) and it is, but the Uvalde killer spent over $3,500 on arms. He used a debit card.

    So everything has its limits. The death penalty (de facto or de jure) is a big deterrent but it has its limits.

    I think those four suggestions would answer the bell of doing something without intruding too deeply into the right of self defense. Make it a running study. I still think there is a cultural component here that now makes mass shootings a thing today when it was far less common prior to 1990. One hears very little about what should be changed in the culture.

    Yes. Stop doing drills.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  130. JF (e44c58) — 5/27/2022 @ 10:21 am

    There needs to be much more focus on these twelve minutes, as opposed to anything after

    but there isn’t much political gain to be had, so it probably isn’t that important

    The 12 minutes turned out to be 2 minutes in the revised chronology/ School resource officer, who was not in his position, heard 911 call aout shooting,drove into parking lot, buut Ramos concealed himself and he drove past him. Then he found a suspect the wrong one.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)


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