Patterico's Pontifications

3/23/2022

Dithering Here And There On Russia

Filed under: General — Dana @ 12:17 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Russia remains a member of a few exclusive international bodies despite their continuing and unwarranted slaughter of Ukrainians. High-level discussions ensue regarding the appropriateness of allowing their continued membership:

The United States and its Western allies are assessing whether Russia should remain within the Group of Twenty (G20) grouping of major economies following its invasion of Ukraine, sources involved in the discussions told Reuters on Tuesday.

The likelihood that any bid to exclude Russia outright would be vetoed by others in the club – which includes China, India, Saudi Arabia and others – raised the prospect of some countries instead skipping G20 meetings this year, the sources said.

[…]

Russia is facing an onslaught of international sanctions led by Western nations aiming to isolate it from the global economy, including notably shutting it out of the SWIFT global bank messaging system and restricting dealings by its central bank.

“There have been discussions about whether it’s appropriate for Russia to be part of the G20,” said a senior G7 source. “If Russia remains a member, it will become a less useful organization.”

Asked whether U.S. President Joe Biden would move to push Russia out of the G20 when he meets with allies in Brussels this week, national security adviser Jake Sullivan told reporters at the White House Tuesday: “We believe that it cannot be business as usual for Russia in international institutions and in the international community.”

Additionally, the Russian Federation continues to be a member of the United Nations. Since the invasion, there have been calls to expel them. However, there seems to be some disagreement about the wisdom or ability to do that:

“The UN is a political body. It is not a church. Ultimately, the UN is there as a place where states…can talk to each other in the last resort,” said Richard Gowan, UN director at the International Crisis Group. Gowen said expelling Russia would be “effectively impossible,” and added that it might even be counterproductive.

“I worry that if you shove Russia out, if you could find a way to shove Russia out, you just have Russia on the outside trying to undercut even these minimal forms of cooperation,” he said.

Brett Schaefer, a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation, offers a countering view:

“The UN General Assembly is not a very powerful body” but it “does have authority over its own procedures and over the bodies that it creates,” Schaefer said. “The fact that no one seems to be very eager to suspend or lead an effort to suspend Russia from the Human Rights Council considering the human rights abuses in the current conflict is vastly disappointing.”

Removing Russia from the Human Rights Council is one way of censuring Moscow for its actions; Secretary of State Antony Blinken suggested it on Tuesday. The council could vote to remove Russia over its human rights abuses and targeting of civilian areas in Ukraine, similar to how it voted in 2011 to remove Libya from the panel. This step, which would require a two-thirds majority vote, is “the most promising formal slap available,” the ICG’s Gowan said.

“It’s pretty morally obvious it should be done,” he said. “It would also send a sort of clear political signal that would be good.”

Unbelievably Believably, Russia remains on the UN Human Rights Council . Four weeks ago, 32 countries voted for a resolution presented by Ukraine to “to establish a commission to investigate violations committed during Russia’s military attack on Ukraine”:

The resolution calls for the “swift and verifiable” withdrawal of Russian troops and Russian-backed armed groups from Ukraine and urges safe and unhindered humanitarian access to people in need.

The independent international Commission of Inquiry will have a mandate that includes investigating all alleged rights violations and abuses, and related crimes, and making recommendations on accountability measures.

Ah.

So, while various officials dither over whether an expulsion or sanction of Russia is justifiable or appropriate, here is some of what is currently taking place in Ukraine at the hands of Russia:

Pleaing to international bodies to help desperate Ukrainian orphans trapped in Putin’s war:

Among the millions of children still in Ukraine there are up to 100,000 orphans housed in nearly 700 childrens homes, according to Save the Children. Half the orphans are said to be disabled. These children are at increased risk of exploitation, abuse, neglect, and human trafficking. Only a few thousand of them have been evacuated so far and there are concerns that these children will be left behind. They need our urgent assistance with evacuation and with finding them a home.

We urge the government to work with other countries and international bodies such as the UN and the Council of Europe to ensure that these children are evacuated and given help, and to prevent any risk of them being trafficked.

Update: President Biden is currently in Europe meeting with our allies, and reportedly will put new sanctions on Russia, as well as look at other options to further isolate and weaken the country.

–Dana

109 Responses to “Dithering Here And There On Russia”

  1. Hello.

    I posted the tweet re the kidnapped children with a bit of hesitancy as it was hard to find hard confirmation from the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry. But I did post it because it came from the US Embassy’s official page.

    Dana (5395f9)

  2. Sure, let Putin come to the G20 meeting in Indonesia. Of course there’s no telling what accidents might befall his plane. Yamamoto’s plane vanished mysteriously near there.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  3. As I suggested last night, somewhat hawkishly, Biden and the G7 need to decide what their goals are wrt Russia and Ukraine.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  4. This is good. The US government just declared that Putin is a war criminal. That’s as good a reason as any to bounce Putin from the Human Rights Council.

    bellingcat has been documenting Putin’s war crimes since he first invaded, and they’re plentiful.

    In Karkhiv alone, he’s destroyed nearly 1,000 residential buildings. The short little Russian motherf–ker needs to pay.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  5. Joe biden was a vietnam war draft dodger just like bill clinton, donald trump and mitt romney. What do you expect?

    asset (1a81f0)

  6. I forgot dick cheney, mark levin, bush and the rest of the neo-con vietnam war draft dodging chicken hawks. I am sure others here can add more names.

    asset (1a81f0)

  7. The likelihood that any bid to exclude Russia outright would be vetoed by others in the club – which includes China, India, Saudi Arabia and others – raised the prospect of some countries instead skipping G20 meetings this year, the sources said.

    This is what gets to the heart of trying to treat a nuclear-armed, natural resource-rich regional power as if it’s Alex Jones or the New York Post. Nations are a lot harder to “cancel” than some rando who gets fired from his job for daring to post on Facebook that transgenderism is a mental illness and a sexual fetish. Even a relatively minor Third World country like South Africa had a robust economy, disciplined military, and nuclear weapons during a period when most of the world treated it like a geopolitical leper.

    Just because the US has a big stick to wield in this regard, doesn’t mean it’s going to be able to jawbone nations in the Southwest/East Asian spheres who see their interests tied to having stable access to Russia’s market.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  8. It’s hard to publicly pitch ‘make Putin pay’ when the very fella you’re angling to help undercuts your efforts:

    Ukrainian President Zelensky ‘told Biden NOT to sanction billionaire Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich because he hoped he could help negotiate peace talks with Putin’

    ‘Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky asked President Joe Biden in a recent telephone call not to impose sanctions on Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich because he might prove to be a useful intermediary in peace talks with Moscow, it emerged on Wednesday.

    As a result, the White House persuaded the Treasury Department not to go ahead with plans to hit Abramovich alongside other wealthy Russians with ties to Vladimir Putin, according to people familiar with the details. Sources familiar with calls between the two presidents told the newspaper that Biden consulted Zelensky on a range of sanctions, including plans for the 55-year-old owner of Chelsea soccer club.’

    The revelations, reported by the Wall Street Journal, explain how one of the world’s richest men has avoided U.S. sanctions even as the United Kingdom and European Union hit him with travel bans and asset freezes.’ – source, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10644711/Zelensky-told-Biden-NOT-sanction-Russian-oligarch-Abramovich-help-peace-talks.html?msclkid=187745e8aad311ec953245d5bb3d1718

    “Churchillian”??? Nyet. “Machiavellian”??? Da.

    “Some apes, it seems, are more equal than others.”- George Taylor [Charlton Heston] ‘Planet of the Apes’ 1968

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  9. 4. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 3/23/2022 @ 12:58 pm

    This is good. The US government just declared that Putin is a war criminal.

    Not Putin personally. (although failing to countermand it or countenancing it when it is forces acting under his control committing war crimes is enough to get someone declared a war criminal, but they are not noticing that for now.)

    You have to read these things carefully.

    The Biden Administration doesn’t want Ukraine to lose –but they don’t want Ukraine to outright win, either. They are defaulting into being for continuing the war. Jake Sullivan outright said that yesterday. That is he said the war would go on for some time.

    You can add: With maybe, after a few weeks that morphing into a frozen conflict. They want Putin to agree to end the invasion and Biden will try to make that NATO policy.

    Putin has got nuclear weapons, remember. They don’t want to back Putin into a corner. They are not going to say they want him gone from power even if they feel that’s the only way this ends.

    They are making policy in the White House on the fly.

    Sammy Finkelman (c04aa1)

  10. It’s charming that asset still tosses around “neocon” as an epithet. It’s like we’re back in 2005 all over again.

    Could Russia be expelled from the UN General Assembly without being also expelled from the UN Security Council? That seems unlikely. And couldn’t Russia simply invoke their own veto power as a permanent member of the Security Council to block any attempt to kick them out of the General Assembly, that is if China doesn’t intercede on their behalf?

    JVW (ee64e4)

  11. vietnam war draft dodger

    Unlike the others, Mitt Romney did nothing unusual to evade the draft. He was in college during the first part of the war and — like every other college student in good standing — he got an automatic deferment. When his deferment was up, he was entered into the draft lottery for that year and pulled #300.

    Calling him a draft dodger is libelous.

    Biden and Trump manufactured physical ailments. After his student deferment ended, Bill Clinton attempted several ploys to evade the draft. When all failed, he was entered into the draft lottery and got #311, ensuring that he would not be called.

    You could maybe call Clinton a draft dodger although his attempts were all legal, and fruitless.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  12. It’s charming that asset still tosses around “neocon” as an epithet

    He’s mimicking the paleocons, although he’s more of a Kos Kid. “Chickenhawk” is more his style. Now, if President AOC were to send troops to help Maduro, he’s be waving the flag pretty hard.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  13. And couldn’t Russia simply invoke their own veto power as a permanent member of the Security Council to block any attempt to kick them out of the General Assembly, that is if China doesn’t interceded on their behalf?

    Since expulsions are based on the recommendation of the Security Council, then yes. But there is another option:

    The possibility of a member state being suspended from the UN is described by Article 5 of the UN Charter. That article states that: ‘a member of the UN against which preventive or enforcement action has been taken by the Security Council may be suspended from the exercise of the rights and privileges of membership by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.’ In case of any ambiguity in the text of this article (which there really isn’t), the UN Office of Legal Affairs has confirmed that the General Assembly may only exercise its power of suspension if: (a) preventive or enforcement action has been taken by the Security Council against that member; and (b) the Council has recommended the suspension…..

    Article 5 does not provide a basis for Russia’s suspension from the UN, because the Security Council hasn’t taken preventive or enforcement action against Russia, and even if it had, Russia would presumably veto a resolution recommending its own suspension. It’s not possible to get around the veto issue by arguing that a Security Council resolution recommending suspension would be procedural in nature – and as such, not subject to the veto – because Article 18(2) of the Charter lists ‘the suspension of the rights and privileges of membership’ as an ‘important question’.
    ……..
    Can the credentials process feasibly be exploited to suspend a state in such circumstances, as a way of circumventing article 5? The answer is yes, because it has been done before.

    The General Assembly has on two occasions used the credentials process to effectively suspend a state from the UN. ……

    The much more pertinent example is South Africa in 1974. In the context of international condemnation of apartheid, in the early 1960s the General Assembly passed a resolution calling on the Security Council to consider expelling South Africa from the UN pursuant to Article 6 of the UN Charter, however the proposal was not supported by the Council’s five permanent members. In the early 1970s the Assembly consistently declined to accept South Africa’s credentials …… and in 1974, the General Assembly President ruled that this meant that South Africa was excluded from participating in the work of the UN. …….
    ………
    The credentials of Russia’s current representative to the UN were accepted by the General Assembly last year, but under the Assembly’s rules of procedure it is open to any member state to raise an objection to that representative, in which case he would remain seated provisionally, ‘until the Credentials Committee has reported and the General Assembly has given its decision’.
    ……………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  14. #8

    What do you think Churchillian is? The man certainly was willing to cut whatever deal that was necessary to save England, including giving Stalin much of East Europe.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  15. Dick Cheney did go out of his way to get deferments, but he did not lie to do so (unlike Biden and Trump). He got student deferments, then was married when they were not drafting married men, then was a father when they were not drafting parents.

    Bush, as we know, joined the Air National Guard. Perfectly legal and no lies, although he may have had help. Considering his father’s heroism in WW2, it’s a bit of a wonder that GHWB would have pulled those strings. Yet he did serve and there was a chance that his unit would go to Vietnam. Lost of people served in those years in other places.

    Mark Levin was in high school until after the draft ended. Being “too young” is not dodging the draft.

    As usual “asset” is shy on facts. I guess if you get your facts on DU, that’s to be expected.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  16. Re: Madeline Albright’s passing, a couple of her quotes:

    Take it from someone who fled the Iron Curtain: I know what happens when you give the Russians a green light. Source

    I think that we all know what evil is. We have a sense of what’s evil, and certainly killing innocent people is evil. We’re less sure about what is good. There’s sort of good, good enough, could be better – but absolute good is a little harder to define. Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  17. 9/ I said:

    They are defaulting into being for continuing the war. Jake Sullivan outright said that yesterday. That is he said the war would go on for some time.

    This is what I referred to:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2022/03/22/press-briefing-by-deputy-press-secretary-chris-meagher-and-national-security-advisor-jake-sullivan-march-22-2022

    MR. SULLIVAN:

    ….Let me close with this: There will be hard days ahead in Ukraine — hardest for the Ukrainian troops on the frontlines and the civilians under Russian bombardment. This war will not end easily or rapidly.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  18. @15. Pfft. It’s certainly NOT Zelenskyy; lest you forget:

    ‘We don’t have a Titanic here’: Ukraine plays down threat of Russian invasion

    Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, has talked down the threat of an imminent Russian invasion and said the UK and US are wrong to pull out non-essential diplomatic staff from Kyiv, adding: “We don’t have a Titanic here.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/28/ukraine-plays-down-threat-of-russian-invasion-volodymyr-zelenskiy?msclkid=34af1f78a8a411ec8248012a3b9675ae

    “Iceberg, right ahead!” – Lookout Frederick Fleet [Scott Anderson] ‘Titanic’ 1997

    Unlike the fiddling Zero, Churchill warned of the ‘gathering storm’ literally for years. The pop-cultured media darling Big Zee, not so much. Still, it’s a quaint shorthand soundbite label for 30-something media types and ancient, sh-t-shoveling politicians who want to give away your tax-dollar-bought-with-borrowed-$-from-China-goodies for free. A fella who undercuts the very ‘folks’- and at times, bites the hand trying to feed him, who are going full-on-political-pretzel to try to support him, with those freebees no less, not ‘lend-lease’- ain’t no Winston. More the Winnie, pawing at every honey-potted bees nest he can. He can float all the balloons he likes, but Putin Bear will never ‘negotiate’ with Pooh Bear.

    When the United States starts selling U.S. Ukrainian Freedom Fighter War Bonds to pay for the missiles, drones, helmets, MREs and assorted soup-to-nuts stuff being funneled ‘over there,’ get back to me. And War Bonds are a proven tool to quash inflation— surely FDR Joe knows that! Until then, it’s all more debt dumped on the U.S. taxpayers by politicians who’ll be long dead when the smoke clears, the maps redrawn, the dead burried, reconstruction begins… and the bills come due.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  19. ‘Could Russia be expelled from the UN General Assembly without being also expelled from the UN Security Council?’

    Depends on how a resolution is crafted- and, as is typical of the UN, it’ll be “non-binding.” 😉 Less outright ‘expelled,’ and more like ‘suspended from school’… for smoking in the Ukrainian bathroom.

    And couldn’t Russia simply invoke their own veto power as a permanent member of the Security Council to block any attempt to kick them out of the General Assembly, that is if China doesn’t intercede on their behalf?

    Sure, Security Council Russia would. You can bet pounding-your-shoe-on-it. China would likely stay out of it unless there’s a way to get a deal to profit from it in the mid-to-long term.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  20. #15 And to add two points: The “Delta Dagger” interceptor that George W. Bush flew was exceptionally dangerous.

    Second, he inquired informally about flying it in Vietnam, but was told that he did not have the necessary experience. (Modern military planes are not cheap.)

    Jim Miller (406a93)

  21. I am the same age as those mentioned as draft dodgers. I also didn’t serve. You know who avoided going to Vietnam? Anyone with four brain cells. The war was started on a ridiculous pretext. It served no strategic national purpose. It was poorly executed by the alleged leaders in the Pentagon and White House. I kept quiet because you can’t stop the Juggernaut by throwing yourself in front of it. There is a reason that the most prominent Republican family let their son risk being downed in his airplane in WW II but avoided it for the Vietnam era scion. The same goes for the most prominent Democrat family, the Kenndys. None of my high school classmates who went to Vietnam had anything good to say about it.
    I wonder if the sons of upper income Russians are in uniform now.

    Fred (25e171)

  22. I would like to see Putin named and shamed by the West whenever a discussion comes up about the status of Russia’s role in the UN or the G20 or any other international body. I think it’s important to be consistent in naming him specifically as opposed to just saying Russia or the Russian people. This all falls on him, in every way, shape and form. Putin alone.

    Dana (5395f9)

  23. @23. Past is prologue; Churchill was fired:

    ‘After the outbreak of World War II, Churchill replaced Neville Chamberlain as prime minister of a new coalition government. Soon after this, he made his famous speech, promising the world that the British people would “never surrender”. Despite enjoying what many perceived to be great political security, Churchill was ousted by Attlee. Many still call his defeat ‘one of the most astonishing political events in British history’. His approval rating was 83% just months before the election. But the results were emphatic: Attlee gained a majority of 145 seats.’ – source:

    https://www.thefocus.news/lifestyle/why-was-winston-churchill-removed-from-office/?msclkid=7eac715caafe11ecac4d587175369d9c

    The Big Zee crowed: ‘We will fight them in the sea, air, forests, fields and streets… we will not surrender,’ too, in his moving address to the British House of Commons and gets a standing ovation as he vows to defeat Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10590233/Volodymyr-Zelensky-delivers-historic-address-House-Commons.html?msclkid=edcb0fabaafe11ec87a3c4cbdd8da99b

    “Never give up – never surrender!” ― Commander Quincy Taggar [Tim Allen] ‘Galaxy Quest’ 1999

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  24. The kicked the Republic of China off the Security Council by using the argument that it was “China’s seat” and they were simply recognizing an alternate government for China. I guess if you really really wanted to piss off the Russians, they could seat Ukraine “as the legitimate government of Russia” but I think that would cause some issues.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  25. @23. Past is prologue; Churchill was fired:

    The two situations aren’t really comparable. Churchill’s defeat was a result of a Britain that had become exhausted with trying to maintain a global empire, and wanted to pull back as the Big Dog after two industrial-grade wars had robbed it of two generations of young men. It was more similar to how Warren Harding was elected by promising a “return to normalcy,” after a decade of legislative populism, war, and social upheaval, and over two decades of increasing involvement in foreign affairs.

    Zelensky’s situation is closer to Finland during the Winter War than Churchill’s.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  26. Opinion polls said that Attlee would have a big win, but nobody believed them until he did. Churchill ran on “I’m Churchill”, Attlee ran on social reform and worker’s rights. Then they nationalized everything.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  27. Harding won because Wilson had opposed the vote for women and the GOP had been the champion of women’s suffrage. And women had their first vote in 1920. Biggest landslide in US history.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  28. So what, DCSCA? Z did not anticipate Putin’s invasion? Well, lots of people didn’t, including Putins own soldiers. Your complaints don’t seem to add up to anything other than “another actor president — ick”.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  29. @26. In the end, they are. And his pitches were emotionally sophomoric, too, but of SOP depth for a stand-up comic. PH & 9/11 to the U.S.; Battle of Britain to the HoC; the Holocaust to the Knesset, etc. You gotta ask yourself why he’d even pitch to exempt Russian oligarch Abramovich as his cities and citizens are being crushed under the Russian boot was even made [see #8.] Unless. of course, he’s a closet Chelsea fan…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uchOo5HU95s

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  30. I think that we can all agree that Zelensky has risen to the occasion in all the ways that Trump did not.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  31. @29. Pfft. “So what” it shows is lots and lots and lots and lots of people DID tell him. And told him so for months- and he blew them off literally days before the invasion– and now begs for help from the same folks. What Putin’s own soldiers knew or didn’t know is rather irrelevant- tey go where they’re told to go. The hammer [and sickle] are merely tools and don’t tell architect how to design the dacha.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  32. Harding won because Wilson had opposed the vote for women and the GOP had been the champion of women’s suffrage. And women had their first vote in 1920. Biggest landslide in US history.

    Kevin M (38e250) — 3/23/2022 @ 5:16 pm

    The differences there weren’t really that stark. Wilson was opposed to it initially, but then supported it in the 1915 New Jersey election, and publicly endorsed it in a 1918 speech. After he got incapacitated by his stroke, his relative positions on suffrage weren’t as important as Republican efforts to endorse suffrage for the purpose of getting those votes.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  33. @31. More like Captain Smith: ignoring intel ice warnings, hitting the berg, radioing the world for help and rescue, firing off distress rockets, keeping the pumps going as long as possible and launching the lifeboats–to Poland. Fodder for a few good movies. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. It’s interesting how rarely DC condemns Putin (if ever), and has all kinds of condemnable things to say about Zelenskyy. It’s as if he wants a certain Russian war criminal to win. Odd.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  35. I guess if you really really wanted to piss off the Russians, they could seat Ukraine “as the legitimate government of Russia” but I think that would cause some issues.

    China would have to have some sneaky reason to want this to happen in order not to veto it. And I don’t see how China’s interests would be better served with Ukraine (or Lithuania or Moldova or Estonia or whomever) holding the Russia seat than with Moscow/Putin holding the Russia seat.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  36. @35. Inaccurate. Capone is Capone. Given. But don’t lose sight that Moran is Moran, who he is and what he’s fighting. Ukraine is in the corruption league w/Russia. More troubling, Zee’s failure to heed the months of warnings– from satellite imagery to MI6, the US intel community and POTUS himself, cost his nation lives, treasure –and now has him w/hat in hand asking for free help from the very ‘folks’ he was shunning– at other people’s expense. He’s been all over the map on joining/not joining NATO, too. How many citizens were moved West from the East or civil defense prep done months before the invasion to minimize the refugee problem? Little, from published reports. He was literally handing out rifles to citizens after the invasion began, too– and has prevented Ukranian men ages 18 to 60- from leaving– after the attacks began as well. Revisit the stories in January and early February where Ukrainians were encouraged to go to at the cafes and bars– literally ignoring the gathering storm.

    Don’t buy the media hype on this guy. The good guy/bad guy thing is great fodder for cable TeeVee news emoters, op-ed writers and so on to tug at your heart- but little more. Plenty of wars waging since 2000- few beamed into your hand gadgets and computer screens. It’s terrible if you choose to watch. It’s easy for the politicos to spin it and cry help for non-voters and non-taxpayers in Kyiv; harder to agree on helping Americans in Detroit.

    Americans who want to help Ukraine now- fine: but pay for it: where are the United States Ukrainian Freedom Fighter War Bonds? FDR Joe knows it raised billions to finance the war effort– while attacking inflation at the same time. But no. Instead, Joe charges it to Uncle Sam’s credit card. He’s less FDR Joe and more LBJ Joe- who printed $ to finance Vietnam– and stuck Americans alive at the time with an inflation spiral well into the 1970s.

    A land war in Europe for the third time in 110 years says more about Europe’s priorities than America’s. We’ve bailed them out twice– and financed a Cold War as well– now a third time? Fool us once, shame on them. Fool us twice, shame on us; fool us three times and we’re damned fools. The EU was warned about hooking up to dependency on Russia for energy needs w/an energy independent USA at the ready– and suckered by the Blueberry Hill singing Vlad. If only Z’s Ukraine manufactured computer chips. Look to Taiwan– where the U.S has genuine interests under threat. Xi is watching. And waiting. And learning what to and not to do.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  37. Ukraine withdraws its troops from Afghanistan – June 9, 2021

    ‘Ukraine has pulled its military contingent out of Afghanistan, spelling an end to its 14-year involvement in the embattled Central Asian country. The withdrawal follows the historic decisions of the United States and NATO to end their operations in Afghanistan in 2021, despite the ongoing war between the country’s weak Western-backed government and Islamist movement Taliban.

    All 21 Ukrainians deployed to Afghanistan returned home between June 1 and 5 on the Ukrainian Air Force’s Ilyushyn Il-76MD transport aircraft, which is normally used in overseas operations.

    The Ukrainians were part of NATO’s non-combat mission Resolute Support, which provided training and advice for the Afghan Armed Forces since late 2014. Since 2007, Ukraine was also involved in the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), a multinational military mission that was active between 2001 and 2014. According to Ukraine’s General Staff, the Ukrainian personnel were involved in the mission’s regional staff service, engineer reconnaissance of transport communications, and disposal of improvised explosive devices. They also served watch duties with the international joint rapid response task team. The experience gained in Afghanistan will be applied at home, including in the war zone of Donbas, the Ukrainian military said. [21 guys.]

    U.S. President Joe Biden on April 13 vowed to completely withdraw from “America’s longest war” by Sept. 11, 2021, the 20th anniversary of the 9/11 terror attacks that had precipitated the U.S. invasion in Afghanistan to oust the Taliban from power and end its alleged support of terrorist organization al-Qaeda. On April 14, NATO decided to end its own peace support mission in the country.

    Both the Alliance and the U.S. vowed to maintain their broad support of the Kabul government after they leave. But according to speculation in the media, the withdrawal is extremely likely to precipitate the downfall of the internationally recognized government and allow the Taliban to completely take over Afghanistan once again.’ – source, https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/ukraine-withdraws-its-troops-from-afghanistan.html

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  38. #37

    Where DCSCA lives — it’s always Monday and he’s the quarterback.

    Z had a problem in January and February — he did not know if Putin was bluffing or preparing an invasion. He also did not want to crash the economy of his nation. His statements were a choice and not a stupid one. My guess is that if he took the Biden approach and warned of war a la Churchill, he would have been considered a warmonger and a perfect excuse for the Russian invasion.

    Z has done a perfectly fine job as a war leader. You may not like the melodrama (since you seem to prefer would be oligarchs to actors), but he’s done a good job convincing the world to pay attention rather than shrug and worry about Taiwan. Given the characters of Biden and our Euro allies, that’s actually an accomplishment.

    Appalled (a1edb5)

  39. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 3/23/2022 @ 7:25 pm

    Like I said, DC, you admire the bully and you’re pissing all over skinny kid getting his lunch money taken. The fault lies with Putin for his decision, but instead you’re nitpicking on Zelenskyy about this and that. It’s odd, just like when you’re played up Biden’s plagiarism and said nothing about Trump’s thousands of lies in office. Maybe you should redirect your OCD elsewhere.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  40. @38. Pfft. Vlad’s history and Crimea to the contrary.

    He’s made no secret of this want. Z’s statements were foolish- especially in the face of the intel shared w/him, the gathering storm on his borders and the 2014 Crimean annexation. Weep not for “crashing” a corrupt economy fat on/global wheat sales.

    Al warned Bugs- then sent a tommy-gun valentine in a garage one chilly February day as well.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  41. @40. Repeated ice warnings to Ukraine’s Captain Smith wasn’t nitpicking, Paul:

    ‘We don’t have a Titanic here’: Ukraine plays down threat of Russian invasion

    “Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, has talked down the threat of an imminent Russian invasion and said the UK and US are wrong to pull out non-essential diplomatic staff from Kyiv, adding: “We don’t have a Titanic here.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/28/ukraine-plays-down-threat-of-russian-invasion-volodymyr-zelenskiy?msclkid=34af1f78a8a411ec8248012a3b9675ae

    You’re buying into the emotional hype, Paul. Don’t. He’s good at tugging on TV and cellphone heart strings after failing his own people. Comedians excel at pathos.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  42. @40. Pfft. Paul, he was impeached twice; and your party failed to remove him from office.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  43. You’re buying into the emotional hype, Paul.

    It’s not “emotional hype” that Putin is a war criminal, DC, or that he illegally invaded and took the Crimean region in 2014, or that he illegally invaded Donbas in 20014 and was in a constant state of war ever since, or that he launched an illegal full-scale invasion of more of Ukraine without provocation or justification.
    But instead of addressing all those illegal and inhumane acts, you’re focused on whining about how Zelenskyy communicated to his countrymen before the invasion. It’s silly, immature and stupid.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  44. @44. You’re hooked on the emotional hype. No, the focus is on how Z ignored the clear warnings he was given to prepare and it certainly doesn’t justify lauding him for it closing the door after the horse has left the burning barn.

    Crimea’s annexation certainly was a ‘red flag’ as was Putin’s numerous speeches over 15 years and desire to reconstitute some semblance of the USSR. The given is a hard Russian rain is very wet and the weather reports from POTUS and assorted sources told Z a bad storm was coming; the stupidity was Z’s failure to heed the repeated storm warnings and put up the umbrellas– and he does not deserve fanboy praise for that.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  45. You’re hooked on the emotional hype.

    Sigh. Pointless. Moving on.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  46. ” after failing his own people”

    Snorfle….his military was ready….he’s gotten a lot of support from the world….his forces are out-manned with inferior technology…but somehow are holding on….inflicting shocking casualities and even winning back ground.

    There was no fireside chat or hell cat cry that would have stopped Putin……and NATO wasn’t coming in to fight for them. You’re alone in your manic and misguided nitpicking….spinning one desperate line as if it matters…as if that is what historians will remember. The Ukrainians are fighting hard….their president stayed when many would have bolted….he inspires his people and rallies his allies. Only you (and maybe Trump outside of TV view) continues to root for Putin as if there is anything noble or impressive…or genius….about Putin shoveling fellow Russians senselessly into a meat grinder…..while shelling women and children. Your only contribution is to hollar to slow the support so you can…or Congress can have a yard sale …..while the neighbor’s house is on fire. Just sad.

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f)

  47. @46. =sigh= It’s not Putin who is begging for free American aid- it’s Zelensky, Paul; so questioning his judgement and competence when it comes to allocating munitions and goodies paid for by American taxpayers is all the more sound. If only there were U.S. issued War Bonds to finance it- then bond buyers could foot the cost.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  48. @47. Pfft. You’re buying into the TV hype, AJ. Foolish to believe any numbers from Russia or Ukraine in the fog of war.

    …and NATO wasn’t coming in to fight for them. Yet Ukraine fought beside NATO in Afghanistan- all 21 of them [see #38.] You’re too emotional: or have you been weeping for all these wars and the carnage not beamed into your smartphone or covered 24/7 on your cable TV and interweb for 20 yesars, too- no small number:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars:_2003%E2%80%93present?msclkid=8ef04e47ab2c11ec87670f5df3fdc500

    ‘Your only contribution is to holler to slow the support so you can… or Congress can have a yard sale …..while the neighbor’s house is on fire. Just sad.’

    Yard sale: $180 BILLION. That’s a helluva contribution, kid:

    WAR BONDS

    War bonds were initially known as Defense Bonds and were first issued as Liberty Bonds in 1917 to finance the United States government participation in World War I. Through the sale of these bonds, the government raised $21.5 billion dollars for its war efforts. After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, Dec. 7, 1941, the U.S. entered the Second World War, and Defense Bonds were renamed War Bonds. More than 80 million Americans purchased war bonds and brought in over $180 billion in revenue.

    What’s ‘sad’ is a typical fair weather conservative who suddenly throws fiscal caution to the wind especially when it is borrowed money not spent on Americans. “Just sad.” And revealing. Good for your MIC stock portfolio, eh.

    But neighbor? Ukraine’s neighbors are Europe, not the United States, AJ. You know, the folks with the national healthcare systems and good roads with high-speed rail and Russian energy sources who had to be threatened to start paying their fair share of $ for NATO by you-know-who rather than keep sticking the unpaid costs to Americans. Use some of those MIC dividends and buy a map, AJ.

    “I always thought that you were a cold, unimaginative, tight-lipped officer. But you’re really quite emotional.., aren’t you?” – John Reisman [Lee Marvin] ‘The Dirty Dozen’ 1967

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  49. @11 You forgot to mention mormon missionaries were not drafted. His father george didn’t serve in w.w.II. Fun fact the conservatives on the supreme court wanted to find muhammed ali guilty of draft dodging for claiming he was a muslim minister ;but their law clerks pointed out if he couldn’t use that defense mormon missionaries would be eligible for the draft and republican mormon utah would have a fit if missionaries were drafted.

    asset (f4129a)

  50. The ministerial deferment was available to all ministers or missionaries, not just Mormons. God only knows how Donald Trump missed that one.

    Ali did not claim to be a minister and that is not why the SC overturned the conviction. Instead they said that the draft board had not given any reason for refusing his objector status, so the court had to dismiss the charges.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  51. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/24/blackrocks-larry-fink-who-oversees-10-trillion-says-russia-ukraine-war-is-ending-globalization.html

    I think the text of the link says it all. That’s definitely a guy who knows what he’s talking about, and it answers my question why the Wall Street organs seem to be the biggest ditherers, barely lukewarm, in this whole thing.

    Yes, yes, I know, the MAGA masses should be the happiest, but this is too far above their heads for their .223s to reach it.

    nk (1d9030)

  52. 45. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 3/23/2022 @ 8:51 pm

    the stupidity was Z’s failure to heed the repeated storm warnings and put up the umbrellas

    https://books.google.com/books

    Winston S. Churchill: The Prophet of Truth, 1922–1939

    On March 18 [1939] A. H. Richards wrote to Churchill: `At long last it would appear that the Prime Minister recognises that you cannot shoo off dictators with an umbrella. His speech took a new and form note.’

    Z agreed with most experts that Putin was bluffing and recognized the balance of forces.

    I read today in the Wall Street Journal the opinion that it could have been prevented if Biden had sent U.S. troops into Ukraine maybe back in August. Of course, this is exactly – or more – what Putin complained about (Ukraine joining NATO.)

    But he complained about that, precisely because it was what would prevent him from acting on his goal of taking over Ukraine.

    Similarly, we would stabilize, not de-stabilize, the situation if we recognized Taiwan as an independent republic, although you would want to do it at a time when Beijing wants something else from the United States, and seeing what has happened in Ukraine, it may not be so necessary in the immediate future.

    Sammy Finkelman (c04aa1)

  53. 14. Appalled (1a17de) — 3/23/2022 @ 2:20 pm

    The man certainly was willing to cut whatever deal that was necessary to save England, including giving Stalin much of East Europe.

    https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/winston_churchill_111298

    If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons

    It wasn;t just England,

    https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/1940-the-finest-hour/their-finest-hour

    But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science.

    Sammy Finkelman (c04aa1)

  54. #54

    The nice thing about Sammy is that he will always find the precise quote you kinda sorta remember when typing out a hazy idea on the I-phone.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  55. China would have to have some sneaky reason to want this to happen in order not to veto it

    It’s actually a General Assembly thing, or at least it was wrt the PRC vs ROC.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  56. China would have to have some sneaky reason to want this to happen in order not to veto it

    China wouldn’t really need to do anything (I’m sure they would also veto, since they do support Russia), but Russia would veto its own expulsion. See post 13 above for the procedure.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  57. @53. Z agreed with most experts that Putin was bluffing and recognized the balance of forces.

    Wrong. Most ‘experts’ told him repeatedly invasion was imminent, Sammy. So he failed to even try to use any ‘umbrella’ – and is getting soaked– so much so, Bugs Moran now cries for the umbrella of an ‘iron dome’ a la Israel.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  58. “Expulsion” is one thing. Seating an alternative regime is different though. The ROC would have, of course, vetoed any attempt to expel it, so they didn’t do that. Instead, they recognized the Beijing regime as the proper holder of the China seat which only required a majority vote of the General Assembly.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  59. Leave it to DCSCA to mock the victims.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  60. So LBJ Joe goes to Brussels, stammers repeatedly energy dependent NATO ‘has never been more united’ forks over another free $1 billion in aid, chareged to Uncle Sam’s credit card, and will allow 100,000 Ukrainians into America… a lot of states are gonna love that added burden on top of illegals literally breaking into America across the southern border- with several biting ‘sanctions’ still not slated to go into effect until mid-June.

    Attaboy, Joe.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  61. “Expulsion” is one thing. Seating an alternative regime is different though. The ROC would have, of course, vetoed any attempt to expel it, so they didn’t do that. Instead, they recognized the Beijing regime as the proper holder of the China seat which only required a majority vote of the General Assembly.

    Fantasy.
    There is no alternative Russian regime. This would only apply if there were two alternative Ukrainian regimes, and I doubt the a puppet Ukrainian government would achieve international recognition.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  62. @60. Pfft. Has Israel rushed to give ’em any ‘iron dome’ help? Nope.

    Technology, BTW, originated from the good ol’USA.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  63. There is no alternative Russian regime

    Upthread I remarked on that, suggesting that (tongue in cheek) that they could recognize the Ukrainian regime as being the proper holder of the Russian seat. It is actually no sillier than the Kumintang being the government of China. I also suggested that it would be poorly received in Moscow.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  64. Biden: US response to Russian chemical weapons would be ‘in kind’

    President Biden on Thursday said the United States response to Russia’s potential use of chemical weapons would “trigger a response in kind,” but said the type of response would depend on “the nature of the use.”

    During a press conference in Brussels, Belgium after Biden participated in an emergency NATO meeting to discuss international efforts to support Ukraine and punish Russia for its invasion, he was pressed on if the United States has collected intelligence that suggests the Kremlin is moving to deploy chemical weapons.

    “We would respond,” Biden said. “We would respond if he uses it.”

    Kevin M (38e250)

  65. I don’t usually like holding posters prior posts against them, but since DCSCA likes to hold every single word z ever said as proof of his inadequacy, let’s revisit DCSCA’s what he thought would and should happen in Ukraine.

    https://patterico.com/2022/02/17/no-russia-did-not-withdraw-troops-from-the-border-with-ukraine-despite-moscows-claims/#comment-2577199

    It’s always hard to disentangle the actual thinking from the whole DCSCA act, but this makes it pretty clear. Anyone who tries to save Ukraine from Putin is a dope. Including the Ukrainians.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  66. Lest you forget:

    “Vladimir Putin doesn’t want me to be President. He doesn’t want me to be our nominee. If you’re wondering why — it’s because I’m the only person in this field who’s ever gone toe-to-toe with him… Putin knows if I am president of the United States, his days of tyranny and trying to intimidate the United States and those in Eastern Europe are over. I’m going to stand up to him… ” – Joe Biden, 2020

    Hell, this from an old fudd who can barely walk, let alone ‘stand up.’

    “Bicycle; Bicycle; Bicycle!” – Queen, ‘Bicycle Race’ 1978

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. @66. Pfft. Yep; apparently they’ve chosen the ‘live in the rubble’ route.

    Pumps kept Titanic afloat, too. Until they didn’t. But fear not- lifeboats are headed for Poland– and to day, thanks to LBJ Joe, the USA.

    Tired of pumping free billions of your tax dollars ‘over there’ yet? Sell U.S. Ukrainian Freedom Fighter WAR BONDS. Generates quick $ and fights inflation at the same time.

    Sure as hell beats tying yellow and blue ribbons around ol’oak trees, or on your lapels, silly support concerts and empty rhetoric in Congress– from Jen Psaki… and at award show podiums.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  68. DCSCA:

    The reason I’m bothering you is your complaints about Z. Because, really, Z could be the combination of Churchill, Lincoln, and George Washington, and you’d still think he was a dope serving an ignoble cause.

    Your argument— a respectable one— is it doesn’t serve us interests to get involved there — particularly when we’re putting it all on the charge card. I think you ignore how badly some of your subsidiary arguments serve that point. Z is president of his country and trying to keep his government going. His military has served him well, as has his ability to project an image. You may not like what it’s causing US and EU leaders to do, but he’s getting a lot more out of the West than anyone here would have expected back in February.

    That’s not Churchillian. But it’s successful.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  69. @69. No- Z was warned for months this was coming and he blew off the intel and now is begging for help from the same folks. Worse, he went out of his way to public diss the very people doing pretzel-politicking sixteen ways to Sunday to try to help him. Now he’s trying to pitch it’s World War III. It’s not. And won’t be. Wouldn’t put it past Moran to go so desperate as to pull a Capone on himself, go false flag, and take some captured Russian tanks, dress up some Ukrainians in Russian uniforms with tommy-guns and roll them into a Polish garage for a shoot-up, to try to trigger Article 5. The world will not go up in flames for over Moran vs., Capone. NATO has Article 5 and if Putin crosses that line the appropriate response will be made. He knows that. You’re too emotional about this- such is the nature of ideologues and having war piped into your home 24/7 on hand gadgets, computer screens and cable TV. Plenty of equally horrid wars since 2000 were not. The history between Ukraine and Russia is an easy read, Appalled. Look it up. American interests are in peril in Taiwan, not Ukraine. Xi is watching and learning what to do- and not to do. The TeeVee is tugging at heart strings- just as it did during Vietnam- 63% of Americans want to help Ukraine. Fine! SELL U.S UKRAINIAN FREEDOM FIGHTER WAR BONDS to pay for it!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  70. You may not like what it’s causing US and EU leaders to do, but he’s getting a lot more out of the West than anyone here would have expected back in February.

    Pfft. For free. The New Ideological Conservatism: help those who don’t pay freely; deny those who do pay at all costs.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. We should send hellfire carrying reaper drones to the uk. Paint them in uk markings pilot them from uk uniform wearing air force experts. 30 of them in a few days destroy the artillery and the black sea fleet

    EPWJ (0403b7)

  72. Appalled, it is fascinating how a guy who can be so completely wrong…

    They’ll put up a ‘token resistance’ for show- with other people’s munitions of course; and then go ‘French.’ Unless they’re stupid enough to destroy their own homes, businesses and infrastructure– in which case they deserve to be occupied.

    …yet still claim to be so unalterably right.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  73. @73. You don’t read very well, do you, Paul: Unless they’re stupid enough to destroy their own homes, businesses and infrastructure.

    =sigh= Sine LBJ Joe won’t peddle and U.S. Ukrainian Freedom Fighter War Bonds to pay for the freebees and battle inflation, nobody’s stop you nor Appalled from catching a dose of war fever to going ‘over there’to help out:

    During the First World War, Ernest Hemingway volunteered to serve in Italy as an ambulance driver with the American Red Cross. In June 1918, while running a mobile canteen dispensing chocolate and cigarettes for soldiers, he was wounded by Austrian mortar fire.

    You’d be welcomed with ‘Zee!’ 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  74. DCCCP: “So he failed to even try to use any ‘umbrella’ – and is getting soaked”

    This is just nonsense talk. There is no magic umbrella for a superpower attack. What was publicly said and privately requested is beyond your grasp. What is the U.S. estimate of Russians killed in action?
    How does that compare with Afghanistan? How many Russian generals have been killed at the front? Do you still think Putin is a genius?

    DCCCP: “Tired of pumping free billions of your tax dollars ‘over there’ yet?”

    I might enjoy having an intelligent good-faith discussion about deficit spending but this repeated squeal of war bonds is equally nonsense…..with DCCCP clearly having a manic episode…but loving the attention (trolls trolling the troll-net). We have a $7T budget and a nearly $3T budget deficit. The $15B in military aid…big picture…..is a rounding error…especially when one figures in the geopolitical importance of opposing Russian expansionism with the accompanying cost of NATO obligations that arise if Putin takes Ukraine. But you’re not wringing your hands over a $3T deficit….and you’re not even rejecting the proposition of helping defend Taiwan, you just don’t want to help Ukraine…and thankfully your misguided admiration of Russia is a minority position. I will gladly call for tightening other places in the budget to pay for this aid…or even a special tax…because it’s just that important…to make this as painful and embarrassing for Putin as possible….and to send a clear message to the Chinese about what the world will and will not accept. I’m still waiting for one word from DCCCP acknowledging that Putin’s actions are in fact evil, and not some cartoonized comparison to fictional J. R. Ewing…or mobsters. This isn’t conservatives pushing for this spending…..it’s everyone…..everyone but the Putin wing

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  75. Ukraine outta pay for U.S. weapons with wheat- or wheat futures.

    GOP Kansas wheat farmers outta LOVE that! 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  76. DCCCP: “battle inflation”

    I don’t think you understand $15B or what is driving inflation

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  77. @75. Pfft. AJ 101: The New Ideological Conservatism:

    Help those non-citizens who don’t pay freely; deny citizens who do pay at all costs.

    Issue U.S. Ukrainian Freedom Fighter WAR BONDS, kid. Pays forb the freebees and fights inflation at the same time. Nobody’s stopping you following Hemingway’s lead to volunteer ‘over there’ either.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  78. When in doubt, trot out a chickenhawk argument…*snort*

    I’m afraid Z is like Reagan and Biden for you. One of those bad people whose every breath stinks of garlic and vapidity and you just aren’t going to give them credit for any single thing.

    In the meantime, you are getting kind of Q-like these days:

    Wouldn’t put it past Moran to go so desperate as to pull a Capone on himself, go false flag, and take some captured Russian tanks, dress up some Ukrainians in Russian uniforms with tommy-guns and roll them into a Polish garage for a shoot-up, to try to trigger Article 5.

    It’s not a good look. Next thing you know, you’ll be contributing to Marjorie Taylor Greene.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  79. @77. Pay for the freebees. Issue the War Bonds. Guess you’re afraid emotionally driven citizens and bottom-line driven corporations– even banks w/Eastern European interests and $$$ opportunities to rebuild won’t buy ’em.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  80. “Issue U.S. Ukrainian Freedom Fighter WAR BONDS”

    As expected, double-down on nonsense. Senility must suck.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  81. “Nobody’s stopping you following Hemingway’s lead to volunteer ‘over there’ either.”

    Given that Americans aren’t in combat, more nonsense. Are you shooting for a record here?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  82. @79. Pfft. You’re too emotional- and bought into the ‘good guy/bad guy’ media hype.

    Don’t be ‘dippy’–Reagan was a better thespian. Joe’s just incompetent. But in the end, Z’s a shoe.

    See if you can figure out who is the fella in black is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYk3LvHMPWM

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  83. @82. VOLUNTEER! Nobody’s stopping you.

    Dodgeball is for kids, kid.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  84. Boycott the G-20 if Putin Is Going

    “Welcome to Bali, Mr. President. Your dinner companion will be the mass murderer and war criminal Vladimir Putin. ” That will be the scene at the Group of 20 meeting in Indonesia this October unless we act now.

    I can hear the objections from Foggy Bottom and Whitehall:

    “We don’t own the G-20, and a forum for dialogue is important.” ……..

    “You and President Obama attended G-20s in 2014 and 2015 with Putin, despite what he was doing in Ukraine and Syria.” ……..

    “A boycott by like-minded countries won’t stop the G-20. It will only reduce our voice.”
    That’s why we should start now. A pre-emptive announcement by the U.S. and U.K., preferably in concert with the European Union and its G-20 member states (Germany, France and Italy) would have a big impact. It is hard to believe that Canada, Japan, South Korea or Australia would attend if Mr. Putin is still in place and continuing his war. That accounts for around two-thirds of the G-20’s gross domestic product and more than half of global GDP. Let’s instruct our diplomats to get to work on Argentina, Brazil, India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia and South Africa.
    ………
    The sanctions have had an impact, but the ruble seems to be stabilizing. So tighten the screw. Are the exclusions from the Swift ban necessary? Which companies are failing to follow Coca-Cola’s and McDonald’s lead on full disinvestment? Why do some countries have sanctions on some oligarchs but not others? Why not start from the proposition that all Russia’s state-owned companies should be subject to sanctions? And where are the punitive measures to hit evaders?
    ……..
    Finally, I believe our own publics are prepared to shoulder the burden. People can see the horrors on television. The British public has shown it will extend a welcome to refugees. I saw the remarkable solidarity in every European country when I helped drive a cargo of medical and other supplies to the Red Cross in Poland.
    …….

    What I find surprising is that the American public criticizes Biden not for being too tough, but not being tough enough on Russia:

    Fifty-six percent of Americans feel that Biden’s response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has not been tough enough. Few believe his response has been too tough and only 36% say his response has been about right. Assessments of his response are split on party lines with 53% of Democrats saying his response is about right while most Republicans and independents believe it has not been tough enough.

    One wonders what the public truly believes. In the same poll 40% (up from 16% in the AP NORC poll of 2/18-21/2022) of the public favors a “major” role “in the situation between Russia and Ukraine” but 46% (down from 52% in the same poll) favors a “minor” role. 55% support Russian sanctions even if they damage the US economy. And supermajorities support all of the actions taken by the Biden Administration: 82% support humanitarian aid; 67% support accepting Ukrainian refugees; and 64% support providing weapons.

    You got to wonder what other actions not polled would receive substantial support that the Biden Administration hasn’t done. Short of actual combat intervention, it is hard to figure out what other actions could be taken. It really boils down to partisanship.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  85. @81. ROFLMAOPIP. War Bonds to pay for free munition and battle inflation [raised $150 billion for WW2] is “nonsense” to emotionally driven faux fiscally responsible ‘new ideological conservative AJ’ with the hypocritical credo, help those non-citizens who don’t pay freely; deny citizens who do pay at all costs.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  86. “One of the things that I take some solace from is I don’t think you’ll find any European leader who thinks that I am not up to the job. And I mean that sincerely…” Joe Biden at Emergency NATO meeting in Brussels, 3/24/22

    He turns 80 on Nov. 20. The mere fact the issue was even broached at that forum w/a hot war burning is terrifying.

    We’re so screwed.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  87. Cant get a price on Whats a woman bond.

    mg (8cbc69)

  88. The U.N. General Assembly adopts a strong resolution blaming Russia for Ukraine’s humanitarian crisis.
    ……..
    The resolution, drafted by France and Mexico and sponsored by over 90 countries, was approved by 140 countries — nearly two-thirds of the General Assembly’s members. It blames Russia for creating one of the worst humanitarian crises in Europe in decades and demands that Moscow abide by humanitarian laws, including the protection of civilians and infrastructure, safe passage for humanitarian aid and an end to the war.

    “It just shows, again, that when the international community is asked to take a stand, Russia is isolated,” said Olof Skoog, the European Union’s ambassador to the U.N. “The appeal today of the General Assembly is directed primarily towards Russia,” he added, “and we just hope that this time they will heed that call.”

    Russia, Syria, North Korea, Eritrea and Belarus voted against the resolution. Among the 38 countries that abstained were China, India, South Africa, Iran and Pakistan.

    Russia’s U.N. ambassador, Vasily Nebenzya, slammed the measure as a “pseudo-humanitarian resolution” brought by Ukraine and its allies to “put different labels on Russia” and to present a “one dimensional” view of the conflict…….

    The resolution is the second the General Assembly has adopted related to Russia’s invasion. On March 2, a week after the invasion began, the body overwhelmingly voted in favor of a resolution [141 in favor, 5 against, 35 abstentions] condemning Russia and demanding that it withdraw its troops.
    ………..
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  89. Be prepared for this dark argument from the Russian delegation at the UN:

    Chemical Warfare and the Russians

    The strongest case for Churchill as chemical warfare enthusiast involves Russia, and was made by Giles Milton in The Guardian on 1 September 2013.

    https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/churchill-and-chemical-warfare/?msclkid=0de2c3d6abc511ec99a0a26f9c9e0527

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  90. @89. List them— then find out how much U.S. foreign aid they’re sent– and what Russian interests they have:

    Abstained: Algeria, Angola, Armenia, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Burundi, Central African Republic, China, Congo, Cuba, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, India, Iran, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Madagascar, Mali, Mongolia, Mozambique, Namibia, Nicaragua, Pakistan, Senegal, South Africa, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Uganda, Vietnam, Zimbabwe

    Absent: Azerbaijan, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Eswatini, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Morocco, Togo, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  91. Pfft. For free. The New Ideological Conservatism: help those who don’t pay freely; deny those who do pay at all costs.

    DCSCA, the ideologue of fecklessness.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  92. You don’t read very well, do you, Paul: Unless they’re stupid enough to destroy their own homes, businesses and infrastructure.

    German Jews did just what DCSCA suggests, and the Nazis sold those homes, businesses and neighborhoods and everything in them.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  93. This is drivel. Using the filter again.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  94. “Welcome to Bali, Mr. President. Your dinner companion will be the mass murderer and war criminal Vladimir Putin

    Not likely. Who would eat dinner with Lucretia Putin? He won’t show anyway, for fear that his plane would have a mishap.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  95. He won’t show anyway, for fear that his plane would have a mishap.

    Agree. Or he might be overthrown while out of town.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  96. “War Bonds to pay for free munition and battle inflation”

    E-bonds no longer exist, but you are free to buy series I or EE (Patriot Bonds!) bonds. Nothing is stopping anyone (except maybe lower rates of return than the stock market) from helping to finance the debt. I encourage a broad variety of financial investment types….together with the solid foundational investments in Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing, Northrop-Grumman, and General Dynamics…..

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f)

  97. @93. Pfft. That’s silly. No, Kevin. It’s Vietnam in reverse. You just really don’t get it; the policy has already been decided: Russian attrition. The West will funnel weapons into Ukraine as long as possible against the clock to damage Putin– as Ukraine is reduced to rubble. Z was warned and blew it off. If the munitions flow is cut off, Z’s toast. When you’ve set ‘sanctions’ to go into effect in mid-June and exempt some oligarchs, the policy emerges from the fog. So the real question now is how much Vlad is willing to pay for a win for him that is ultimately a loss for Russia, . Regardless, it took decades for Vietnam to recover and rebuild.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  98. 97. Issue new bonds. This is hard for you, isn’t it.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  99. Europe is still plugged into the lucrative Russian energy resources Vlad has yet to close down. And until all these abstentions are on board against Russia, there will be ways around isolating Putin: Algeria, Angola, Armenia, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Burundi, Central African Republic, China, Congo, Cuba, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, India, Iran, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Madagascar, Mali, Mongolia, Mozambique, Namibia, Nicaragua, Pakistan, Senegal, South Africa, South Sudan, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Uganda, Vietnam, Zimbabwe

    And the absent as well: Azerbaijan, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Eswatini, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Morocco, Togo, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Venezuela.

    China’s failure to leverage any pressure should tell you a lot about ‘the New World Order’ they’re pushing. Plugging ALL the holes in sanctions has yet to dbe done by the West. Until then, there will be ways to source around it.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  100. DCSCA,

    Charge every adult not paying taxes 100.00 a month to live here. Caregivers excepted. Dont pay. Dont stay. It used to be welfare was 25 % bigger than tbe military. Now its several times. Double defense spending. China will collapse

    EPWJ (0403b7)

  101. @101. Don’t believe 21st century Americans would sacrifice all their Chinese-made gadgets, toys, TV sets– everything, you name it- to thwart a China driven ‘New World Order.’ They’d do a deal. Keep the gadgets; take the compromise. And the cannoli. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  102. “Issue new bonds.”

    Why, what’s wrong with the EE-series?

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f)

  103. @103. What’s wrong w/issuing bonds specifically designated only for Ukrainian Freedom Fighter munitions; nothing.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  104. You’d have to be naive to believe much of the war info from Russia or Ukraine interweb and media sources; or that special ops teams from NATO/the U.S.— even Israel; aren’t on the ground at work in Ukraine “helping out.”

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  105. I sure am glad that we are back to normalcy after the chaos of the Trump administration.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  106. @106. Normalcy:

    North Korea Tests Missile Capable of Reaching U.S. as Biden in Europe Focuses on Ukraine

    ‘North Korea on Thursday fired an inter-continental ballistic missile into the Sea of Japan, testing technology that appears capable of reaching the U.S. mainland and enraging Western powers at a time of heightened tensions elsewhere.

    The show of force – employing an ICBM for the first time since 2017 – marked the 12th time North Korea has engaged in provocative weapons testing in the last year and comes as President Joe Biden travels to Europe to meet with NATO and other allies there about the war in Ukraine and subsequent humanitarian disaster.’ – US News & World Report

    Attaboy, 50-years-of-government-experience-Joey!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  107. North Korea was careful not to risk making it look like it was a real attack, so they didn’t get a test of the U.S. ability to intercept it.

    Sammy Finkelman (c04aa1)

  108. One of the stupidest things being said is that Putin has a strategy of creating refugees as a means of putting pressure on the NATO allies. If he takes over, then they won’t become refugees?

    Sorry, wrong theory as to why he’s bombing population centers. No evidence for it whatsoever, nor any logic.

    And Russia doesn’t tend to believe that gaining population is a net minus. That theory is as wrong as Marxism. (there are sociological issues, but from whence comes the idea that Putin thinks the same way as western central planners, or, more basically, why the absence of the concept that it is even only a theory?

    And they are worried about human traffickers! Human traffickers exist only where migration is illegal, and besides, they haven’t had time to get organized. A few have Covid but we’ve stopped trying to halt the spread.)

    Sammy Finkelman (c04aa1)


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