Patterico's Pontifications

2/7/2022

What Is Your Definition of “Legitimate Political Discourse”?

Filed under: General — Dana @ 4:22 pm



[guest post by Dana]

On Friday, the Republican National Committee’s Resolution to Formally Censure Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger accused Cheney and Kinzinger, who sit on the Jan.6 Committee, of participating in the persecution of “ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse”. Below is a newly released video clip from the Jan. 6 videos in which Officer Mike Fanone is viciously attacked by the mob in an act of so-called “legitimate political discourse”:

Meanwhile, Sen. Romney came out today and rebuked the RNC for the outrageous decision to censure two members who have demonstrated that their oath to uphold the Constitution supersedes all else. Once upon a time, their commitment and action would have been heralded by the Republican Party. But now that it’s Trump’s party, Cheney and Kinzinger are obstacles that must be removed:

You know where I stand and with whom I stand in this. I see no reason to give any political party the benefit of the doubt. Too bad, so sad. Given the RNC’s carefully worded resolution, one must assume that the RNC must also consider the actions above as “legitimate political discourse”. Once upon a time, this would have been unthinkable. But no longer. They’ve made it official: An angry, rioting mob doing bodily harm to a law enforcement officer counts as “legitimate political discourse”. And it’s funny too because when Antifa acts in the same vile manner, Republicans consider it to be anything but “legitimate political discourse.” And rightfully so. But at least we know now. I think it will always be jarring to see two conservatives be persecuted by their own political party for their very real legitimate political discourse and efforts to hold accountable those involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection.

–Dana

103 Responses to “What Is Your Definition of “Legitimate Political Discourse”?”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (5395f9)

  2. Hello??

    Dana (5395f9)

  3. The question is, what does the RNC think it is talking about?

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  4. It does make you wonder what they would consider illegitimate political discourse (assuming it was intended to benefit Donald Trump).

    Would the RNC consider this incident “legitimate political discourse”?

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  5. An angry, rioting mob doing bodily harm to a law enforcement officer counts as “legitimate political discourse”.

    the resolution said no such thing

    on jan6, there was both violent insurrection and legitimate political discourse

    the jan6 committee is coming after both

    marco rubio:
    “That commission is a scam. I think it’s a complete partisan scam. And I think anyone who committed a crime on January 6 should be prosecuted and if convicted, put in jail,” Rubio said in an interview with “Face the Nation” on Sunday. “I do not believe that we need a congressional committee to harass Americans that weren’t even in Washington on January 6, that were not in favor of what happened on that day, have condemned what happened on that day, but they want to smear them anyway.”

    JF (e1156d)

  6. Nikki Haley’s criticism of Pence is not legitimate political discourse, because it’s a lie.

    Mike Pence is a good man. He’s an honest man. I think he did what he thought was right on that day. But I will always say, I just, I’m not a fan of Republicans going against Republicans.

    To spell out the obvious, Mike Pence wasn’t going against Trump, he was defending himself from Trump going against him, on multiple occasions. He’s gone straight downhill since her UN gig.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  7. Nikki Haley calls out Pence for saying Trump was “wrong” about overturning 2020 election.

    Because something, something, politics is tribal.

    So disappointing. So craven.

    lurker (59504c)

  8. @6, Jinx

    lurker (59504c)

  9. Er. She’s gone straight downhill…

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  10. But I will always say, I just, I’m not a fan of Republicans going against Republicans.

    If she really meant this, then she would come out in support of Cheney and Kinzinger, and against the RNC for going after two of their own.

    But she doesn’t really mean this. What she means is that she is not a fan of Republicans going after certain Republicans (Trumplicans).

    Dana (5395f9)

  11. JF, even McDaniels’ amended resolution, the…”Democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens who engaged in legitimate political discourse”…is a lie.
    There were no persecutions of protesters, because the protesters on 1/6 were peaceful and not breaking the law, but there are 769 prosecutions of rioters.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  12. Meanwhile, Sen. Romney came out today and rebuked the RNC for the outrageous decision to censure two members who have demonstrated that their oath to uphold the Constitution supersedes all else.

    Pierre Delecto always comes across as a Johnny-Come-Lately to events. Appears to hang back ’til dust settles and others decide before putting a damp digit to the wind then breaking his own by outgassing a POV. The guy’s a perpetual ‘lead-from-behind’ creep. He’s the kind of fella who’d voice support for the 1944 Normandy invasion–in 1968.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  13. What Is Your Definition of “Legitimate Political Discourse”?

    The Boston Massacre was a confrontation in Boston on March 5, 1770, in which a group of nine British soldiers killed three people of a crowd of three or four hundred who were abusing them verbally and throwing various missiles. The event was heavily publicized as “a massacre” by leading “Patriots” [or seditionists-if you were a colonist loyal to the Crown] such as Paul Revere and Samuel Adams. British troops had been stationed in the Province of Massachusetts Bay since 1768 in order to support crown-appointed officials and to enforce unpopular Parliamentary legislation.

    The ‘Sons of Liberty’ tossed tea into Boston Harbor dressed as indians. Hindsighted, [literally], Lincoln and JFK might have an interesting POV on this as well.

    One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  14. I don’t believe that breaking and entering into the Capitol building and attempting an insurrection is enshrined in any of our laws as legitimate political discourse. Therefore, the only people who would have been involved in legitimate political discourse would’ve been the ones who kept their protest outside the Capitol building, and they aren’t being investigated.

    Nic (896fdf)

  15. Once upon a time, another political party viewed bombing the Capitol to be legitimate political discourse. Maybe they didn’t come out and say it, but their embrace of the Weathermen over the years says volumes.

    I find both parties to be reprehensible, and not only here. The GOP is being that way currently, but the pearl-clutching from the Democrats is mostly partisan glee.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  16. the ones who kept their protest outside the Capitol building, and they aren’t being investigated.

    Some have been, and also doxxed, threatened, and fired. Other than that I agree with you.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  17. But we are arguing this question in a bit of a vacuum. We are assuming that those assaulting the Congress were wrong in their belief in the steal, and this colors our response.

    So, here is the question, correctly framed:

    Regardless of your attitude towards the correctness of the election result, is a violent assault on the Capitol (or other seat of government) always wrong?

    Kevin M (38e250)

  18. The correct move by Romney (and any others) would be two resign from the Republican Party and serve as an Independent. A tweet is not sufficient.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  19. *too

    stupid fingers.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  20. The french celebrate Bastille day. In texas they celebrate the alamo and the battle of san jacinto. We all celebrate the battle of lexington. Black lives matter protests were mostly “peaceful” msdnc. The weathermen grew up and took over the democratic party along with the black panthers and the ku klux klan took over the republican party. Maybe you never trump republicans can take over perot’s old party. “By any means necessary” Malcolm X. Those who stand in the middle of the road get run over. 2016 democrat establishment “When they go low we go high!” High in the air like that woman hit by the trumpster’s car. 2018 AOC quotes paul newman to richard boone in the movie hondo. “Hey I got a question. How are you going to get back down the hill?” Decleration of independence It is their duty to alter or abolish that government.

    asset (e44cbb)

  21. I don’t believe that breaking and entering into the Capitol building and attempting an insurrection is enshrined in any of our laws as legitimate political discourse.

    Neither are the current two major political parties. What exactly are they? Who owns them?? Who runs them??? Who died and decided THEY should be the two chief conduits for public office candidacy?? Don’t belong to either yet they presume to dictate who We The People should consider with the proverbial binary choice.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  22. Regardless of your attitude towards the correctness of the election result, is a violent assault on the Capitol (or other seat of government) always wrong?

    Nyet! 😉

    … and Putin smiled!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  23. Putin won’t smile if he remembers what happened to russia in afganistan. Did democrats steal the election yes. Was it legal yes! Republican party in their never ending attempts to keep the libertarian party off of the ballot passed restrictive ballot access laws to keep libertarian party off the ballot. (they failed libertarian party was on ballot in all 50 states) But democrat party used these laws to kick green party off ballot in states trump barely took from hillary in 2016 az, ga. wi. and some other states. Example 2016 trump wins wisconson by 22,000 votes with jill stein green party getting almost 40,000 votes. 2020 biden wins wisconsin by 20,000 votes with green party kicked off ballot by democrats.

    asset (e44cbb)

  24. @23. Putin won’t smile if he remembers what happened to Russia in Afganistan.

    Crimea wasn’t Afghanistan; Ukraine ain’t Afghanistan— and Afghanistan wasn’t part of the ol’CCCP.

    But it’s a fair bet Ukraine will split like post-war Germany. An ‘acceptable’ incursion. The price of real estate next door won’t come any cheaper for the nostalgic Soviet Vlad for another 50 years. And Ukrainians aren’t so stupid as to destroy their own homes, cities and businesses– they still have to live there. That’s why he won’t bother to occupy Kyiv or Odessa proper at the outset. No need. He’ll just roll the tanks down from Belarus just west of Kyiv and up from up from Crimea near Odessa and split the country north/south- and we’ll have a West Ukraine and an East Ukraine– just like Cold War Germany was. And Russia will hold the line on their eastern border. The ‘liberated’ East Ukraine and its Russian-speaking inhabitants will be back in Motherland; with West Ukraine left for the saber rattlers and capitalists on all sides to play for profits and negotiate pipelines. And the MICs of all will make a buck– as will mapmakers. It’s a win/win for Vlad; a bone ol’Rooster Joe, NATO’s clucking hens and energy hungry Europe will have to swallow. And maybe, a neat, shiny Titanium Curtain with a Kyiv Wall built for the tourists, too. Someday, Senator Joe will figure out why his entire deck of jokers keeps losing to President Putin’s pair of deuces.

    … and Vladimir smiled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  25. Eastern Ukraine has lost population, and is is ruined, economically.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/dismal-russian-record-in-occupied-eastern-ukraine-serves-as-warning-11643988253

    Since then, [2014] however, the two areas—now nominally independent “people’s republics” inside the larger regions of Luhansk and Donetsk—have turned into impoverished, depopulated enclaves that increasingly rely on Russian subsidies to survive. As much as half the prewar population of 3.8 million has left, for the rest of Ukraine, more prosperous Russia or Europe. Those who remain are disproportionately retirees, members of the security services and people simply too poor to move. Current economic output has shrunk to roughly 30% of the level before the Russian invasion, economists estimate.

    Sammy Finkelman (46ec7d)

  26. They expect the Covid commission – except they won’t use that word – to be better than the Jan 6 one.

    Sammy Finkelman (46ec7d)

  27. Is obvious to me that the Central Committee denounce is not about short bus comrades. Is about dissident commissars like Steve Bannon, Mark Meadows, Jim Jordan, and maybe even Comrade Chairman Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  28. But I will always say, I just, I’m not a fan of Republicans going against Republicans.

    Don’t sell Nikki Haley short. She is wise in the ways of weasel. No [self-labeled] Republican has gone more against, against more Republicans, more viciously, than her orange sahib, and only she knows whether she intends to whitewash Trump, deter him from kiboshing her political goals, both, or something else entirely that we naifs cannot even conceive.

    nk (1d9030)

  29. “But I will always say, I just, I’m not a fan of Republicans going against Republicans.”
    –Nikki Haley, 11th Commandment Enforcer, 2/7/2022

    “We need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn’t have, and we shouldn’t have followed him, and we shouldn’t have listened to him. And we can’t let that ever happen again.”
    –Nikki Haley, when she thought Trump was done for, January 2021

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  30. “I’m not a fan of Republicans going against Republicans”

    Then she’s no fan of Trump….who won’t hesitate to go against any Republican that goes against him and his big lie about the election steal. We need good people who will tell the truth…even when it makes us a little uncomfortable. Haley is trying to straddle the fence…and stay relevant to a majority GOP that’s not yet ready for the truth….or acknowledging that character matters. I hope she eventually pivots….

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f)

  31. If someone can’t speak out against trying to steal the presidential election I can’t vote for her. The oath says to defend and protect the constitution and GOP leadership is utterly failing at that right now.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  32. Dana,

    This is the infamous part of the GOP resolution:

    WHEREAS, Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger are participating in a Democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse, and they are both utilizing their past professed political affiliation to mask Democrat abuse of prosecutorial power for partisan purposes,

    That does not call the January 6 riot legitimate political discourse. It instead argues that the 1-6 Commission is running amok. I don’t buy this, but it’s best to charactarize garbage accurately.

    And, yes, this document document is lying piece of garbage. After all, who can truly believe this:

    The primary mission of the Republican Party is to elect Republicans who support the United States Constitution and share our values;

    But I thi

    Appalled (1a17de)

  33. All summer long we had “fiery but mostly peaceful protests” but I guess those were different because reasons…

    DenZel (5a7c58)

  34. Um….I meant to edit my #32…Oh well. The point remains.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  35. Appalled (1a17de) — 2/8/2022 @ 6:34 am

    This is the infamous part of the GOP resolution:

    WHEREAS, Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger are participating in a Democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse, and they are both utilizing their past professed political affiliation to mask Democrat abuse of prosecutorial power for partisan purposes,

    “Ordinary citizens” means they’re not talking about Trump or Meadows or Giuliani.

    They have tried to say they mean the false electors. (they can’t say the people who merely attended the rallies since the committee, in fact, is not going after them, even if that resolution was designed to make it appear tat way.)

    Sammy Finkelman (46ec7d)

  36. All summer long we had “fiery but mostly peaceful protests” but I guess those were different because reasons…

    Because they were not incited by a two-month long campaign by the President of the United States and his elected and unelected catamites to incite a civil war, rebellion, and insurrection, and overthrow the election by both covert quasi-legal and overtly-violent means in order to keep him in power.

    I think the “monkey see, monkey want” “egalitarianism” of Trumpworld is its most annoying and frustrating aspect. What can you do with people who think like that?

    nk (1d9030)

  37. @33, those were bad also. Peaceful protest is fine. Violence has no part in it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  38. “I’m not a fan of Republicans going against Republicans”

    She loyally served Trump while he regularly trashed Republicans from his presidential perch. She says nothing about his continued attacks on Republicans. (I heard that the captions in his coffee-table picture book include a lot of nasty barbs against other people including Republicans.)

    Oh, but that’s different, because “let Trump be Trump.” Which basically means “We like moral relativism if it serves our agenda (or political careers).”

    Once upon a time, this would have been unthinkable. But no longer. They’ve made it official: An angry, rioting mob doing bodily harm to a law enforcement officer counts as “legitimate political discourse”.

    It’s a logical consequence of lining up behind a profoundly amoral man and anointing him the One True Champion of what one holds dear. If he must never be criticized but always defended, then anything he does and anything done in his name must be righteous.

    A political party that doesn’t merely indulgence a normal measure of human imperfection but idolizes a person with no ethical code higher than self-interest is a party that is morally bankrupt.

    This is all a stark object lesson in why self-identified conservatives used to say “Character matters,” and why a remnant are now saying “It still does.”

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  39. I think the “monkey see, monkey want” “egalitarianism” of Trumpworld is its most annoying and frustrating aspect.

    i.e., “Some other people rioted and destroyed buildings, which was really bad (as most people agree) — so you can’t criticize my side for sending a mob to do battle with the police for hours and storm the Capitol in an effort to keep a losing presidential candidate in office (which was patriotic).”

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  40. Fyi – The republican party has no plan to balance the budget. Ever.

    mg (8cbc69)

  41. Darlin’ Nikki flip flops more than a dying mackerel in the moonlight.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  42. During the rioting and destruction all through 2020, the bar for what constituted legitimate was constantly lowered. Looting, destruction, attacking police, attacking Federal officers, burning and destroying property, attacking the Supreme Court building etc went on and the politicians on the left, the media excused it all as legitimate grievance, legitimate “discourse”.
    For some reason, although black males were still being killed by police in 2021, no one seemed concerned enough to burn stuff. Even Portland has calmed down. What was unique about 2020? The election?

    If we continue to tolerate bad behavior in election years, it will contimue and likely get worse.
    If Jan6 had happened all on its own I’d be outraged, but by the time we got through 2020 I was jaded

    steveg (e81d76)

  43. #42
    Is that an uncommon practice?

    The slick way to do it is to transfer them all to your “library” and bury them.

    Trump was an amateur

    steveg (e81d76)

  44. Assuming peaceful protests in the streets are “legitimate political discourse”, is granting immunity to drivers who run over them also “legitimate political discourse”?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  45. Don’t sell Nikki Haley short. She is wise in the ways of weasel.

    Haley does one thing that others fail to do. She picks her fights with care. To the degree she is able to keep her mouth firmly shut, she is the opposite of Donald Trump.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  46. Nikki Haley, when she thought Trump was done for, January 2021

    She has yet to do a Kevin McCarthy on the subject.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  47. Don’t sell Nikki Haley short.

    At 5′ 6″ she is already short.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  48. …a majority GOP that’s not yet ready for the truth….or acknowledging that character matters

    Except it doesn’t. Competence matters.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  49. RIP Douglas Trumbull (79).

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  50. Darlin’ Nikki will make for an exceptional Vice President for Trump. A great story, the right gender, age and ethnic mix– and a woman who doesn’t need pantsuits to project power and can confidently wear a dress.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  51. If Jan6 had happened all on its own I’d be outraged, but by the time we got through 2020 I was jaded

    There’s a significant step downward in the spiral when the bad behavior is fomented and condoned by the president (“We love you, you’re very special …. Remember this day forever”), when it was done in an effort to prevent the winner of an election from taking office, and when the losing incumbent’s party then commits itself to protecting him and all his co-conspirators, and ostracizing those who still believe in accountability.

    Last summer, we saw a lot of bad behavior at the street level, and too much indulgence by some politicians, as well as incitement by activists.

    What we saw on Jan. 6 and in the events that prepared for it and even more in what followed is the corruption of a whole political party, or most of it, and most of its supporting media wing, in service to an exceptionally selfish, amoral man who, bizarrely, is still held up as the very best champion of American values.

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  52. Last summer,

    How time flies. I meant summer 2020.

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  53. @ #20 asset wrote:

    The french celebrate Bastille day. In texas they celebrate the alamo and the battle of san jacinto. We all celebrate the battle of lexington. Black lives matter protests were mostly “peaceful” msdnc. The weathermen grew up and took over the democratic party along with the black panthers and the ku klux klan took over the republican party. Maybe you never trump republicans can take over perot’s old party. “By any means necessary” Malcolm X. Those who stand in the middle of the road get run over. 2016 democrat establishment “When they go low we go high!” High in the air like that woman hit by the trumpster’s car. 2018 AOC quotes paul newman to richard boone in the movie hondo. “Hey I got a question. How are you going to get back down the hill?” Decleration of independence It is their duty to alter or abolish that government.
    asset (e44cbb) — 2/8/2022 @ 12:04 am
    _______________________________________

    Re “… and the ku klux klan took over the republican party.” Really? What is your proof on that?

    The Republican party was formed as an abolitionist party.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)

    The KKK was started after the Civil War to oppose/overthrow the Republican party, mostly in the South. The KKK is largely associated with the Dem party (most recently think Robert Bird) – and its support of racism (Dredd Scott v. Sanford,60 U.S. 393 (1857), Separate but equal (Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896), Jim Crow, blocking passage of civil rights/voting laws and most recently the Marist/racist group BLM.

    The Repub party has its fault and they are many, but when the dust settles, we all have very little representation – and the Dems & Repub (the Ruling Class) agree on all the big issues. So it actually is a uni-party oligarchy. https://spectator.org/americas-ruling-class/

    So, Why, for what purpose, would you write such a false statement – “… and the ku klux klan took over the republican party.”?

    Liberty & Truth require constant vigilance. GLZ.

    Gary L. Zerman (a1521c)

  54. #50

    You must be reading the Caro biography of Lyndon Johnson….

    But, one can be competent at governing and totally destroy what we think of as the bedrock of this country. (Suppose, for example, we had Putin or Xi rather than Trump. Yikes!)

    So character does matter — somewhere in the mix. A pure heart and an empty head, however, doesn’t suffice.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  55. Darlin’ Nikki will make for an exceptional Vice President for Trump…….

    Identity politics.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  56. @57. Competence.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. So character does matter — somewhere in the mix.

    No. It doesn’t.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  58. @51. Trumbull’s sfx skills were truly stellar. Just revisit the segments from ‘2001: A Space Odyssey’, created before computer generated imagery was invented- let alone the norm- and the first Apollo spaceflight ever flew. Filmed frame by frame, his work still holds up today.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  59. I wouldn’t say the KKK took over the Republican Party, but the party’s Southern Strategy was predicated on adopting white Southerners’ grievances against the end of segregation, the national gains of the civil rights movement, and the dismantling of Jim Crow laws. This led to the stranglehold the Democratic Party has on the African American vote nationally. Goldwater was the first Republican presidential candidate to win the electoral votes in the Deep South, based on his opposition to the Civil Rights Act, even though the party supported civil rights legislation.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  60. @51. Trumbull’s sfx skills were truly stellar. Just revisit the segments from ‘2001: A Space Odyssey’, created before computer generated imagery was invented- let alone the norm- and the first Apollo spaceflight ever flew. Filmed frame by frame, his work still holds up today.

    I went to a 40th anniversary screening of 2001 at the Motion Picture Academy with Trumbull in attendance. He showed how the special effects (particularly the Stargate sequence) were created. It was fascinating how they were done as mechanical or in camera effects. The sad thing is that none of the spacecraft models survive, but in the lobby were scale models of all the spacecraft created by fans watching the film frame by frame.

    And you’re right-the film still hold up today. Can’t wait to see in 70MM again.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  61. I wouldn’t say the KKK took over the Republican Party, but the party’s Southern Strategy was predicated on adopting white Southerners’ grievances against the end of segregation, the national gains of the civil rights movement, and the dismantling of Jim Crow laws. This led to the stranglehold the Democratic Party has on the African American vote nationally. Goldwater was the first Republican presidential candidate to win the electoral votes in the Deep South, based on his opposition to the Civil Rights Act, even though the party supported civil rights legislation.

    The South began moving toward the GOP before 1964; you see clear evidence of a shift in the period 1948-1963. And, by the way, what happened after 1964? The GOP began winning presidential elections for the first time in decades. And it was only when a majority of Southern House seats went Republican that Republicans won the House back in 1994. There is nothing wrong with appealing to voters’ concerns; busing in particular was wildly unpopular, including in the northern states.

    People vote based upon identity, not policy. Someone’s race and religion goes further in explaining why people vote as they do than their policy views (which are usually developed post-hoc by taking cues from their party).

    mikeybates (0b2118)

  62. @62. What a great experience for you– ‘The Ultimate Trip.’

    Check out this website– there’s some of the props – or parts which survived– but the pix of the remains of the space station sort of sum up the situation.

    https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/155722/what-happened-to-the-prop-ships-and-monoliths-used-in-2001-a-space-odyssey

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  63. What you said

    There is nothing wrong with appealing to voters’ concerns; busing in particular was wildly unpopular, including in the northern states.

    What it specifically means in context

    There is nothing wrong with appealing to voters’ desire to maintain an apartheid state and deny blacks people equal rights; busing in particular was wildly unpopular, including in the northern states.

    I think when we go from the general to the specific it’s easy to see there is something wrong with it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  64. #59 — So I’ll count you as a vote for Cthulu in 2024…

    Appalled (1a17de)

  65. @62. For me, it’s the concept of the computer graphics -even the idea of video tablets– used on the displays in the film– which all had to be created on film– which was so prescient and incredibly well done. None of that even existed in reality in 1966-68– let alone in color; though some crude cathode ray screen images existed but they were ‘Pong’- like at the time. BBC 12 still give me a chuckle- at that time in the UK, there was only BBC 1, still in broadcasting in b/w; BBC2, an experimental colour station– and ITV- the sole commercical station.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  66. @66, I’m leaning that way, why settle for the lesser evil. But the SMOD still has a lot of positives.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  67. Honestly, I’m lost on this topic. When BLM and Antifa were burning and looting, it was legit political discourse, at least that is what the media and Democrats told me. Now, they are saying that a bunch of truckers in Canada are terrorists, even though they are not burning and looting.

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb)

  68. The South began moving toward the GOP before 1964; you see clear evidence of a shift in the period 1948-1963.

    I agree, I picked 1964 as that was the year of Goldwater-Johnson presidential race.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  69. Canadian officials caution against ‘foreign interference’ as U.S. Republicans back ‘Freedom Convoy’ protests
    ……..
    The Canadian convoy has attracted the attention of U.S. politicians debating their own country’s coronavirus protocols and drawn support from Republican figures including former president Donald Trump.

    Responding to some of those critics Monday, Canada’s public safety minister, Marco Mendicino, said: “We’re Canadian. We have our own set of laws. We will follow them.”

    The demonstrations began in late January after Canada and the United States imposed a new rule requiring cross-border truck drivers to be fully vaccinated to enter their respective countries. Since then, the protests have grown into a broader condemnation both of pandemic-related measures and the government of recently reelected Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, as far-right extremists, conspiracy theorists and anti-government activists have joined their ranks.
    ……..
    Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis and Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, both Republicans, tweeted over the weekend that their states will investigate GoFundMe after the fundraising platform said it was freezing more than $8 million in donations to the convoy’s organizers.

    But Mendicino shot back Monday, saying: “It is certainly not the concern of the Texas attorney general as to how we in Canada go about our daily lives in accordance with the rule of law.”

    “We need to be vigilant about potential foreign interference. … Whatever statements may have been made by some foreign official are neither here nor there,” Mendicino said during a news briefing.
    ………
    As usual, Ted Cruz had to run at the front of the line. No issue is to small for his involvement.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  70. When BLM and Antifa were burning and looting, it was legit political discourse, at least that is what the media and Democrats told me.

    Cite some prominent Democrats and media voices saying explicitly that burning and looting are legitimate political discourse. Or telling looters and arsonists: “We love you, you’re very special.”

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  71. #71

    The original approach had GoFundMe reallocating contributions to somebody else, once the truckers were found unworthy. That had the feel of fraud and certainly would have merited the interest of th state attorney generals. If GoFundme ever put that idea into operation, it would seems reasonable those guys were involved.

    And Rip — you should remember Ted’s Canadian heritage.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  72. Honestly, I’m lost on this topic. When BLM and Antifa were burning and looting, it was legit political discourse, at least that is what the media and Democrats told me. Now, they are saying that a bunch of truckers in Canada are terrorists, even though they are not burning and looting.

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb) — 2/8/2022 @ 10:58 am

    I don’t see how anyone with a moral compass could be lost on this topic. I just can’t help you there. But I can help you with a factual error in your premise.

    The democrats you were listening to didn’t include then candidate Biden. He was clear that violence had no part of peaceful protests.

    The deadly violence we saw overnight in Portland is unacceptable […] as a country we must condemn the incitement of hate and resentment that led to this deadly clash. It is not a peaceful protest when you go out spoiling for a fight.”

    Protesting such brutality [George Flyod’s murdere] is right and necessary. It’s an utterly American response. But burning down communities and needless destruction is not. Violence that endangers lives is not.”

    “There’s no place for violence, no place for looting or destroying property or burning churches or destroying businesses […] we need to distinguish between legitimate peaceful protest and opportunistic violent destruction”

    Details at the link
    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-biden-condemn-violence-idUSKBN25V2O1

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  73. “The republican party has no plan to balance the budget. Ever.”

    Wouldn’t it be nice if anyone in politics even discussed the issue? But that would require a sober and serious political culture. Our national debt has gone over $30T and we want to moan about transsexuals or how government must subsidize even more of our lives. Some will argue that low interest rates and being the reserve currency allows us to manage a larger debt. Presumably in perpetuity. But at some debt level, we hit the tipping point and the debt impedes our growth causing investors to lose faith and stop subsidizing it. But a serious discussion requires both Right and Left to grow up and relinquish sacred cows. We will need a crisis before that happens. We’re out of honest leaders. There’s no political cost of piling on the debt.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  74. And Rip — you should remember Ted’s Canadian heritage.

    True that.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  75. “Except it doesn’t. Competence matters.”

    DCSCA discovers that the ends really do justify the means. I guess everything is ok provided the trains run on time. As long as China ethnically cleanses competently or Russia annexes Ukraine competently, then all is fine.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  76. @77. A POTUS needs to be SOB, AJ; old nice guys finish last.

    … and Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  77. 74. The vwey name “Black Lives Matter was a lie.

    Because it implied blacks were in danger of losing their lives only from the police, and that only blacks were in danger of losing their lives from the police.

    And that the police did no good.

    Sammy Finkelman (46ec7d)

  78. The democrats you were listening to didn’t include then candidate Biden. He was clear that violence had no part of peaceful protests.

    Politicians say a lot of things. What they do is something different altogether. Biden’s DOJ – all for leniency for arsonists who kill people while engaging in legit political protests:

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/mcconnell-doj-lenient-sentence-minnesota-arsonist

    Cite some prominent Democrats and media voices saying explicitly that burning and looting are legitimate political discourse.

    There are plenty who ignored the violence and the looting – or better yet, blamed it on the right – while explaining and defending the “mostly peaceful” protests.

    The media? You can find plenty of memes surrounding our friends at CNN talking about “fiery but mostly peaceful” protests.

    Hoi Polloi (7cefeb)

  79. #78 I’m not entirely surprised to find someone who thinks Abraham Lincoln was failure. But I will be celebrating Lincoln’s birthday this Saturday, anyway. (And I hope our hosts do, too.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  80. To me, in this scenario, Cheney/Kinzinger isn’t approaching 1/6 from a principled position.

    @Dana, any legitimate political discourse Cheney/Kinzinger had should’ve stayed within the GOP party. They would have had far better engagement, within the party, than what they’re doing now. They could disagree behind doors, advocate away from Trumpism behind doors, essentially working within the party to advance their goals. And it’s not like there aren’t other Republicans who isn’t doing just that…just look at McConnell.

    If they have to cross the aisle, which gives Democrats a veneer of bipartisanship, to an extremely partisan commission that the only objective is to politically damage the Republican party, then they absolutely deserves to be censured. If they continue doing so, then maybe the principled position is to leave the GOP party for Independent or even the Democrat party. But for me? I’d rather they’d stay and that the members within the party need to recognize that not everyone is going to agree on everything, and that there are shared goals and objectives that the *CAN* work together and advance. All this Trumpism v. Anti-Trumpism purity test will do nothing be fracture the party. It’s a mirror-image to what Democrats are currently facing with the progressives v. moderates.

    whembly (ae61f7)

  81. whembly,

    Why do you consider the 1-6 commission “extremly partisan” whose “only objective is to politically damage the Republican party”? Because your take on the situation entirely flows from that.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  82. @83

    Why do you consider the 1-6 commission “extremly partisan”

    A commission is supposed to be made of members where Pelosi and McCarthy (elected by the majority of their respective party) selected. Pelosi vetoed, imo against standing protocols, whom McCarthy selected. McCarthy then responded that he’s he doesn’t believe the GOP should participate in that committee. Then, Pelosi reached out to two most anti-Trump Republicans in Cheney/Kinzinger, who’s own re-election chances were in dire straights at the time, have done NOTHING to reign in the worst tendencies of this partisan committee (which would’ve been the job of Jim Banks and Jim Jordan that Pelosi vetoed).

    only objective is to politically damage the Republican party”? Because your take on the situation entirely flows from that.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 2/8/2022 @ 1:46 pm

    Case in point: this committee still seems to refuse to investigate the known security failures that transpired at the Capitol in the first place.

    This committee, insists, that this was some purpose central planning to breach the capital, where in reality, it was a event that a small segment of protestors crossed the line from protesting-to-violent rioting. Not much different than the Riots seen across the country in previous summer, or even not much different when DC burned on the night of Trump inaugration. They’re unwilling to consider that this was a sordid organic event, rather some nefarious planning by the “Stop the Steal” crowd.

    Succinctly stated: This committee is only looking to exact some political price from Republicans, rather than endeavoring to perform a good faith investigation of what actually transpired.

    whembly (ae61f7)

  83. @81. Failure? He successfully stopped a bullet, Jim; and a certain actor found him to be quite the SOB, but wasn’t very good at leaping buildings in a single bound.

    Wot? Too soon?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  84. @84. Pelosi will be 82 next month and as mentally out of it as Biden. Her outbursts and incoherent fits-of-pique are increasing. Pints of ice cream must be closing in on $20. When a country is run by the at-and-near octogenarian crowd, expect a lot of old brain-farters breaking wind at the podiums. This country was once admired for being young, vigorous and on the move. Now it’s just an old folks home.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  85. If they have to cross the aisle, which gives Democrats a veneer of bipartisanship, to an extremely partisan commission that the only objective is to politically damage the Republican party,

    Republicans could have had a nonpartisan commission:

    The proposed commission was modeled on the one established to investigate the 9/11 terror attacks, with 10 commissioners — five Democrats and five Republicans — who would have subpoena powers. A Democratic chair and Republican vice chair would have had to approve all subpoenas with a final report due at the end of the year.

    That’s about as balanced and bipartisan as you can get. Dems gave the GOP negotiators everything they demanded in how the commission would operate.

    Then Senate Republicans killed the plan. Why? Most likely because too many R’s thought it would be damaging to themselves, if only because MAGAland would be angry at them for letting it proceed.

    When Dems set up a select committee, Republicans chose to seat two people who transparently wanted to obstruct the investigation, including one who was likely to be a material witness. They probably knew that Pelosi would reject them, for good reason, so then all the Trumpublicans could screech that it was nothing but a partisan witch-hunt.

    Whatever cynicism the Dems might be showing, in this situation it is emphatically Republicans — aside from a small handful — who are displaying the most bad faith.

    After lining up behind Donald Trump and trying to shield him and his accomplices from accountability, the GOP is going to have a hard slog trying to regain any claim to the high ground, or any credibility in complaining about partisanship.

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  86. This committee is only looking to exact some political price from Republicans,

    I won’t deny that “politics” factors in. But if the GOP can’t emphatically agree that a losing incumbent president should pay some price for trying to stay in power by fraud and/or force, and for inciting a mob to intimidate legislators into doing his will, and for watching the violence against the police for hours and boasting about how many people were fighting for him, and for turning a deaf ear to entreaties to call off the mob, and for essentially praising the mob afterward, etc … then that party should bloody well pay a political price for its moral debasement.

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  87. @88 wow — fraud, force, incitement….

    and yet more than a year later trump isn’t in prison, nor has he been charged

    looks like he didn’t do any of that

    so really you’re teed off that people aren’t actually guilty

    and you need your kangaroo court

    cuz moral debasement something something

    JF (e1156d)

  88. @62. https://airmail.news/issues/2021-8-14/beyond-the-infinite-and-back

    Looks like the Academy Museum managed to pay and get this prop for display– w/a little restoration work.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  89. Matthew Seligman, a fellow at Yale Law School. wrote a paper

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3283457

    about how the Electoral Count Act could be abused, and waited five years (2013 to 2018) before he decided to publish it.

    The biggest problem is the Governor’s tiebreaker in case a state sends more than one plausible slate of electors to Congress. In such a case, a majority of both Houses is needed to reject.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/07/us/politics/electoral-count-act-reform.html

    Seligman conjures a hypothetical yet plausible scenario: The secretary of state declares that President Biden won the popular vote in the state. But Gov. David Perdue, who has said he believes the 2020 election was stolen, declares there was “fraud” and submits a slate of Trump electors to Congress instead. Then the House, led by Speaker Kevin McCarthy, certifies Trump as the winner.

    Even if Democrats controlled the Senate and rejected Perdue’s electoral slate, it wouldn’t matter, Seligman said. Because of the quirks of the Electoral Count Act, Georgia’s 16 Electoral College votes would go for Trump.

    David Perdue, of course, would first have to defeat Brian Kemp in the Republican primary, and then defeat Stacey Abrams in the general election, and then act in a wrongful way in 2024 and then Georgia’s 16 Electoral votes would have to matter.

    Seligman found that in nine of the 34 presidential elections since 1887, “the losing party could have reversed the results of the presidential election” (if every official acted along party lines)

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  90. Proposals t amend the ECA:

    1 Extend the dates for the Electors to vote about two weeks

    2) Affirm that the VP has no power

    3) Raise the number of members of Congress needed to object to a state’s electors

    4) Get federal courts more involved

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  91. BTW, Senator Manchin has endorsed Lisa Murkowski for re-election.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  92. As slimy a chicken-plucker as Perdue is, Stacey Abrams is even slimier. She would be the one more likely to cheat, in the election itself and with the Electoral slate.

    nk (1d9030)

  93. Question: Suppose that the PA, GA and AZ legislatures had done as requested and flipped the electoral votes, asserting a “failed election due to confusing and misapplied Covid rules.” Assume also that the GOP had enough strength in each House to make it stick.

    What then would have been the bounds of “legitimate political discourse”?

    Kevin M (38e250)

  94. Senator Manchin has endorsed Lisa Murkowski for re-election.

    No doubt. They are very similar figures.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  95. 1 Extend the dates for the Electors to vote about two weeks
    Why?

    2) Affirm that the VP has no power
    Not even to set rules? Be clear here.

    3) Raise the number of members of Congress needed to object to a state’s electors
    Why? They need a majority of votes to change anything. Just because an issue is brought up doesn’t mean they have to agree to it. Don’t allow arguments to be suppressed easily, as it will not have the effect you seek.

    4) Get federal courts more involved
    Please don’t. I can think of nothing more pernicious.

    Kevin M (38e250)

  96. @88 wow — fraud, force, incitement….’

    Your attempt to bat down my comment makes no sense whatsoever, which means you go nuthin’

    If the new rule is “anyone not in prison at this moment is ipso facto innocent of any wrongdoing,” then that applies to people you dislike.

    Also, a “kangaroo court” will put people in prison without plausible evidence of wrongdoing or due process. So if the 1/6 committee is a “kangaroo court,” why hasn’t it put Trump in prison already?

    Oh, maybe because it isn’t a court at all, and it’s not going to put anyone in prison. It’s just a fact-finding body.

    Don’t know why I even bothered to reply to nonsense, but oh well.

    Radegunda (c9718a)

  97. 1 Extend the dates for the Electors to vote about two weeks

    Kevin M (38e250) — 2/8/2022 @ 5:21 pm Why?

    To give a little bit more time for vote counting and litigation/

    2) Affirm that the VP has no power

    Kevin M: Not even to set rules? Be clear here.

    Trump (or Eastnan) claimed to see some room for the Vice President to reject aa state;s votes. Trump claims that changing the lae proves that Pence had that power in 2021. Mitch McConnell says it would resolve an ambuity. Pence says not to change that law would, in 2025, give the power to determine who was president to one person, and that person would be Kamala Harris and how can that be good for the Republican Party?

    3) Raise the number of members of Congress needed to object to a state’s electors

    Kevin: Why? They need a majority of votes to change anything. Just because an issue is brought up doesn’t mean they have to agree to it. Don’t allow arguments to be suppressed easily, as it will not have the effect you seek.

    It would limit frivolous objections, and deter mobs.

    4) Get federal courts more involved

    Kevin M: Please don’t. I can think of nothing more pernicious.

    This part has the most disagreement, but it’s to avoid a state submitting two slates of electors. The courts would be given clearer law, though.

    Sammy Finkelman (46ec7d)

  98. Actually what Pence said was that arguing the law now gave him that power. he law change would more specifically limit the vice president to reading the Electoral vote certifications.

    Sammy Finkelman (46ec7d)

  99. The norms are back. Just business as usual.

    And here’s the 7-page response from USCP, which pretty much refutes every assertion made by those Trump House members. The IG investigation should settle the matter, but I’m leaning toward USCP. They’ve been trashed enough.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  100. and yet more than a year later trump isn’t in prison, nor has he been charged

    looks like he didn’t do any of that

    You know who else isn’t in jail despite Trump harping endlessly about locking her up? Hillary Clinton. So, by your logic, it looks like she didn’t do any of that.

    Dana (5395f9)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1627 secs.