Patterico's Pontifications

We’ll spend the day watching one party press this point for partisan advantage and the other party minimize and deny it for similarly partisan reasons. It is all depressingly predictable. But I did not want to detract from the simplicity of the point by pointing out examples of that already happening, or attempting to provide evidence for the point (if you don’t believe what I say here, I can give you some books to read, but I won’t regurgitate them for you today). I just wanted to say the one clear important and true thing that needed to be said.

Patterico (e349ce) — 1/6/2022 @ 8:25 am

Yup

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 8:30 am

And did not pardon the people who pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to help him accomplish his goal. When he could easily have, in his last fourteen days in office, the dirty, double-crossing coward.

nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2022 @ 8:45 am

It was an attempt by a sitting President to steal an election that he had lost.

This is certainly the heart of the matter. Unfortunately, a shocking number of people who say they stand on conservative principles and values, including a necessary adherence to the Constitution have evidenced that they were just paying lip service. Because when it actually became absolutely clear and obviously undeniable that Trump was unhinged and deceitfully pushing the big lie for his own gain, these same people chose to defend the liar and his lies rather than standing on the principles which they claimed as their foundational beliefs.

I have absolutely no trouble believing this observation of Trump as he watched the insurrection unfold on TV because, from everything we have seen and know about him (verified with our own eyes and ears), it rings true:

“He was in the dining room gleefully watching on his TV as he often did, [saying] ‘Look at all the people fighting for me,’ hitting rewind, watching it again, that’s all that I know,” said the former press secretary.

It was all about him, and he was pleased to see his minions go to battle on his behalf. He was happy they rioted – not for the country, or the Constitution, or the rule of law, but for him.

Dana (5395f9) — 1/6/2022 @ 8:52 am

Well, the Jan 6th riot was Trump’s temper tantrum response to the realization that Pence would not accommodate the Navarro non-violent election steal. Most everyone else on team-Trump understood the optics of a Capitol “invasion” were awful….and that all negative consequences would get pinned on Trump. Most any other President….all in my lifetime….would have been immediately on TV, calling for a cessation of violence and an immediate stand down. From Trump, a weak and pitifully late statement, where he simultaneously had to sadly express his “love” for people who included those that violently assaulted officers.

And after failing to do his duty, Trump also failed to address the nation to explain the delay and the reassure that the transition would be peaceful. Again, this is pathological behavior…however one thinks about what changes should happen for voting. And what has been the consequence? How did the GOP respond? Ultimately with rationalizations, conspiracies, and what-about-isms. Trump was not excommunicated….the base did not distance themselves…he remains a favorite for 2024, where alternatives are meekly stepping aside if he runs. It’s all pathetic.

AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:01 am

maybe we can get another federal holiday out of this

JF (e1156d) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:06 am

There were two January 6 events. One was the riot, insurrection, whtever you want to call it. It was an attempt to steal an election for Donald Trump. It has not been proven that it was led by Donald Trump. He was happy (gleeful) that it was happening. Trump was derelict in his duty to cause the laws of the US to be faithfully executed, by failing to act to quash it immediately.

The other was to attempt to put the Big Lie in action by objecting to the election results and having Pence throw out the results. This — the attempted coup — was more dangerous and is still a possibility.

These two events are increasingly conflated (and Pat’s simple statement does that). That’s dangerous. The odds of putting Trump’s direct fingerprints on the riot at the capitol aren’t all that great. And, like with the Muller investigation which got intermeshed in coversation with the Steele dossier lie, the failure to prove Trump’s direct collusion with rioters will become exoneration, not just for the specific charge, but for the whole infrastructure of the Big Lie.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:09 am

Oliver Wiseman at The Spectator has a solid essay on the anniversary which comports nicely with what Patterico wrote. Here’s how it begins:

There was no shortage of discussion of January 6, 2021 in the twelve months that followed. The few hours during which a violent mob of Trump supporters stormed the Capitol have been exhaustively raked over by newspaper reporters and deployed as a talking point by television pundits. The riot is regularly nodded to by Democratic politicians as justification for everything from an overhaul of voting laws to increased infrastructure spending. Even those on the part of the right who would rather pretend it never happened occasionally find themselves having to explain, contextualize or acknowledge events in the US Capitol a year ago today.

And yet, the actual events of January 6 have a way of getting lost in the endless, unedifying and often bad-faith January 6 discourse. The first anniversary of the attack on the Capitol is therefore a chance to refocus on what actually happened. A crowd egged on by the lies of a president trying to overturn the results of an election ransacked the Capitol. Some of his supporters came to Washington prepared for violence, others were swept up in it. The upshot is that Trump and his mob used falsehoods and force to interrupt Congress’s certification of election results — but only briefly, bending but not breaking America’s constitutional order.

He also reminds us that nobody has seemed to make any progress in solving the matter of the pipe bombs placed at the DNC and RNC headquarters the previous evening.

JVW (ee64e4) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:11 am

@6. Exactly- Ashli Babbitt Day!

_______

Stunningly tone deaf: Nancy Pelosi is wearing Royalist Red.

The message of 1/6 is lost on those people; theyt forget they swork for use, not the other way ’round. The growing problem remains squarely with these two institutional Establishment parties, with their diminishing membership and their entrenched legacy of controlling ‘the system’ from the ground up for decades, leading to an increasingly angry, independent-minded, populist-rooted electorate fed up w/paying for poor performance and incredible incompetence.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:14 am

DCSCA:

What’s populist about rioting to overturn the choice of a decent majority of Americans? You don’t even have an Electoral College argument here.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:18 am

Fine by me, JF #6), but it’ll be changed to Los Reyes Magos in the AOC- and Chuy Garcia- electing polities.

urbanleftbehind (c7d183) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:25 am

More from The Spectator: In reviewing today’s speech, Jacob Heilbrunn suggests that President Biden will now spend the next year (perhaps three) no longer trying to defend his increasing silly policy proposals and will instead focus relentlessly on Donald Trump:

Joe Biden delivered. There was no somnolence, no quiescence. Instead, Biden lashed into his predecessor in unprecedented fashion to offer the most important speech of his presidency.

[. . .]

Trump, it must be said, offers precisely what most American presidents crave but usually don’t receive — a cartoonish enemy that they can rally the nation against. Trump, you could say, is a deliverance for Biden. He allows Biden to transcend his essentially humdrum nature, his Babbitry to stand as the avatar of decency and truth. Give Trump credit. His transparent nefariousness allowed Biden to win one election. It might well allow Biden to win another in 2024. The speech that Biden delivered at the Capitol was his unofficial announcement that he’s running again.

[. . .]

The two men need each other. The higher profile Trump remains, the more rallies he holds, the better Biden will look in comparison. Now more than ever, Biden needs Trump to validate his presidency. For the past year, Biden sought to ignore Trump. His poll numbers plummeted. His speech showed that he is bowing to reality. Like Sherlock Holmes grappling with Professor Moriarty, Biden cannot extricate himself from Trump. Trump looms larger than ever.

Those who convinced themselves that Joe Biden was interested in bringing the country together and moving us forward as one people sure have egg all over their faces today. Two grossly mediocre old men bound together in a weirdly symbiotic way, it’s what we have come to deserve these days. The Sherlock Holmes/Professor Moriarty analogy isn’t quite apt because both of those men were actually brilliant, but I think it will do for the time being.

JVW (ee64e4) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:26 am

“It was an attempt by a sitting President to steal an election that he had lost.”

I’d like to hear a clear case for this, laying out all the facts and evidence. Not saying it’s not true, but part of Trump’s genius is an ability to equivocate in order to maintain plausible deniability later. Supporters will point out where he told people to go home for instance.

JRH (bdcb40) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:28 am

More Jonah below, worth a full read.

But let’s turn back to that day. I’ve ignored the foibles of the left here, even though they are just as addicted to their fact-resistant narratives. For 75 years, the left has wanted to see itself at war with domestic fascism, and while Donald Trump and January 6 gave them material to work with in ways Goldwater, Reagan, and Bush never did, the simple truth is that Trump was never the bogeyman they wanted him to be because being a truly effective dictator takes more work and intellect than Trump could ever muster. Trump may have a fascist’s instincts, but he doesn’t have a fascist’s work ethic.

Similarly, the least interesting people involved in the Capitol riot were the rioters. For the left, the goons smashing windows and defecating in the halls when not chanting “Hang Mike Pence” were fascists, white supremacists, and insurrectionists. No doubt, some fit those descriptions.

But most were like Douglas Jensen, who recorded a selfie video of himself touching the wall of the Capitol proclaiming: “This is me touching the fucking White House, this is why we’re here.” (The judge in Jensen’s case cited the video as proof the defendant was too stupid to be a ringleader.)

The mob’s idiocy is significant for a number of reasons. First, it undercuts the story of January 6 that progressives want to tell. It is now an article of faith on the left that these goons were determined to “destroy democracy.” But that wasn’t their actual intent. They believed Trump’s story. They believed they were saving democracy from a coup.

Extra credit for referring to Steve Bannon, Ali Alexander, Peter Navarro and the like as “coprophagic phylum”.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:30 am

@6 & 9. Is Guy Fawkes Day an official British holiday?

nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:30 am

I’m pretty sure I didn’t have any bad words in my comment, but it’s “awaiting moderation”.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:31 am

What Trump did on 1/6 did succeed in making the Russian collusion and the dirty deals with China to protect Ivanka’s trademarks and the Kushner green card racket redundant (but not irrelevant). He committed two acts of treason on that day: High treason against the United States and petty treason against his followers.

nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:35 am

It’s been released, Paul Montagu.

Dana (5395f9) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:42 am

@10. You’re reading the wrong message from 1/6. Anything would have set these folks off. It’s been simmering for decades. And now they’ve tasted power. And it will continue to churn, grow and increasingly boil over. The ‘royalist’ leadership in both these Establishment parties are wholly tone deaf to it. It’s stunning. Fewer and fewer voters identify with either party- yet find themselves presented w/candidates for office from each simply because the system is ‘rigged’ by both parties from the local level up. Yet their memberships are dwindling as independent ranks keep growing. This voter anger isn’t going to go away for some time.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:45 am

Thank you, Dana, Comment Releaser Extraordinaire.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:47 am

@15. Yep. “Guy Fawkes Day”

Guy Fawkes Day, British observance, celebrated on November 5, commemorating the failure of the Gunpowder Plot of 1605.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Guy-Fawkes-Day

When living in London, we’d light off fireworks in Hyde Park that day- which were easy to obtain. As Yanks, it was our ‘July 4’- as they didn’t celebrate Independence Day– for obvious reasons.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:50 am

@12. Kamala sealed her fate today, comparing it to Pearl Harbor and 9/11– both of which were actually intelligence failures by the institutions of government w/massive losses of life and property, just as failing to adequately protect the Capitol after million of dollars spent was a blunder as well. These people just don’t get it.

But Joe’s droning speech on syphilis was certainly inspiringly unifying.

Wasn’t it.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:59 am

Those who convinced themselves that Joe Biden was interested in bringing the country together and moving us forward as one people sure have egg all over their faces today

Scrambled, poached and hard boiled.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:00 am

Patterico, it’s not that I don’t believe that Trump is trying to have people in place to try this again, but

1) it will be just as incompetent as before, as “C”s like Trump hire “D”s and “F”s. Remember his impeachment counsel?

2) The Democrats are trying this, too, by other means, and they are NOT incompetent about it. And some of them really have no more compunctions about it (other than “don’t get caught”) than Trump does.

I fear you are watching the hand the magician wants you to watch while he stuffs rabbits into the hat with the other hand.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:11 am

maybe we can get another federal holiday out of this

Trump’s Deathday.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:13 am

Supporters will point out where he told people to go home for instance.

Yeah, after hours of rioting, and including “we love you, you’re very special.”

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:17 am

@25. Guess what: Teddy Roosevelt’s ‘deathday’… January 6.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:19 am

One year later, there is really only one thing that needs to be said about January 6, 2021. It was an attempt by a sitting President to steal an election that he had lost.

A doomed attempt, that was further ruined by what, at best, were loose cannons, and over sooner.

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:23 am

While I have referred to the rioters and their fellow travelers in Congress as “insurrectionists” as the events of January 6th was the first real attempt to overthrow the constitutional order since the Civil War, here is what a real insurrection looks like.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:28 am

https://www.house.gov/legislative-activity

There are 31 days in January. Nancy’s House will be in session just 9 of those days- 2 of them for “events” – not including the waste of your tax-dollar-paid time today. And of course, a little snow shuts the whole government down as well.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:32 am

I’m pretty sure I didn’t have any bad words in my comment, but it’s “awaiting moderation”.

You overlooked the f-word which was in the blockquote.

JVW (ee64e4) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:51 am

“2) The Democrats are trying this, too, by other means, and they are NOT incompetent about it.”

The Democrats are absolutely incompetent. I don’t know how you could watch them over the last year and think otherwise.

Davethulhu (17e89a) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:52 am

GOP commemorates denialism day

Traditionalist Republicans breathed a sigh of relief when Donald Trump canceled his Thursday news conference, then another when the GOP in Georgia’s Cobb County called off its planned vigil for people charged in the Jan. 6 riot at the Capitol.

But every indication is that the reprieve will be fleeting.

……..Across the country, Republican activists are still planning rallies and vigils in more than a dozen states for Jan. 6 participants they depict as “patriots” or “political prisoners.” Stars of the party’s right-wing are lining up to appear on conservative media in a day of counter programming designed to downplay the seriousness of the attack on the Capitol. Trump himself will be back behind a microphone next week in Arizona, where he will repeat his lie that the election was rigged.

Trump’s baseless claims about the outcome — and the idea that the Jan. 6 riot was something other than a violent assault on the halls of government — are no longer fringe elements of the GOP, but part of its DNA.
………

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:53 am

Erik Wemple has been fairly evenhanded in going after media outlets, CNN/MSNBC for their coverage of the Steele dossier and now Hannity for his general corruption, for saying one thing in public and something else to his allies behind closed doors.

Fox News is keeping quiet about the latest Sean Hannity scandal, in which the longtime host sent text messages to then-White House chief of staff Mark Meadows and others providing political advice regarding President Donald Trump in the days surrounding the Jan. 6 Capitol riot. Instead of denouncing Hannity’s activism, a Fox News spokeswoman pointed to a tepid statement from Hannity’s lawyer.

It’s an odd reaction from a network that is apparently paying Hannity millions of dollars to work for someone else.

FoxNews is also paying lots to plaintiffs for Hannity’s role in spreading misinformation, such as to the Seth Rich family and soon to Dominion Voting Systems. I’d condemn Hannity for being such a whopping sellout and suck-up to Trump, but he’s in whopping good company.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:54 am

I have to agree with those who say that Kamala Harris comparing 1/6 with 9/11 and Pearl Harbor is atrocious. The first was a political demonstration that some took too far, the others were acts of war that killed thousands, as intended.

Whatever you think that Trump was about (and I think it was pretty bad), this wasn’t an act of mass killing and death from the skies.

Of course, Kamala Harris lives in a bubble that knows no better. People on the left are never bombarded with information from the right and think that means they’re in the center.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:54 am

#19 —

Anything would have set these folks off. It’s been simmering for decades. And now they’ve tasted power. And it will continue to churn, grow and increasingly boil over.

I tend to believe that historical forces usually win out over personnel. And, good golly, the historical forces are there. But I am at a lost to think of the anything that would have got the group out without the compelling but false lie. Imagine a minute if Trump decided to agitate about hordes and swarms of immigrants and we need to have folks to invade Congress and make them consider immigration reform right now. Do you see the riot happening? I don’t. There’s an immediacy to a stolen election claim “Something is being directly taken from YOU, right now” that engages almost more than anything else.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:54 am

Those who convinced themselves that Joe Biden was interested in bringing the country together and moving us forward as one people sure have egg all over their faces today.

If it is just today that they realize this, they are pretty dull.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:55 am

He’s still telling the lies he used as a pretext to try and steal the presidency and the traitors among his supporters continue to eat them up.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/news/news-qrawwrdsqf0

To watch Biden speaking is very hurtful to many people. They’re the ones who tried to stop the peaceful transfer with a rigged election. Just look at the numbers. Does anybody really think that Biden beat Obama with the Black population in select Swing State cities, but nowhere else? That he would lose 18 out of 19 bellwether counties, and 27 out of 27 “toss up” House races, but somehow miraculously receive the most votes in American history with no coattails? That he would lose Florida, Ohio, and Iowa and win, even though it has never been done before?

They spread a “web of lies” about me and Russia for 4 years to try to overturn the 2016 election, and now they lie about how they interfered in the 2020 Election, too. Big Tech was used illegally.

Where did all those votes show up from in Georgia, where it was just revealed they sold ballots for $10 a piece, or in Pennsylvania, and Arizona, and Wisconsin. He acts like he’s aggrieved, but we’re the ones who were aggrieved and America is suffering because of it with poisonous Borders, record Inflation, a humiliating surrender in Afghanistan, $5 a gallon gas and higher, empty stock shelves, and rampant crime. America is a laughingstock stock of the world, and it’s all because of the real insurrection, which took place on November 3rd, but this is an election year and MAGA Republicans should get elected and work with me to fix this horror that Joe Biden and the Democrats have brought us.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:58 am

https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1478765062663905286

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 10:59 am

You’re right, JVW. Mea culpa.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:02 am

Hey NJRob, looks like Ted Cruz is one of those communists you’re worried about

Ted Cruz: “We are approaching a solemn anniversary this week. And it is an anniversary of a violent terrorist attack on the capitol.”
“It is also worth asking … What could have prevented the breach of the Capitol? What could have prevented the riot getting as far as it did?”

Pretty sure Romney is also a communist since he issued a statement as well.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:02 am

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:30 am

Goldberg’s the guy that was just on Twitter 2 days ago blaming Youngkin for the ineffective snowstorm planning, right? Wanted to get those lefty potshots in before all the others piled on. Then when it was pointed out to him that Youngkin wasn’t in office, he deleted the tweet and said well maybe he should use his pickup truck to help out.

He never posted anything about the actual governor.

That’s the guy you’re fondly quoting, right?

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:03 am

I saw Cruz’s idiotic remarks.

Carry on trolling Time.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:03 am

What’s especially hilarious about today is watching these lefty pontificators interview each other to express how traumatic and harrowing last Jan 6th was to them. Maybe they can get Brian Williams in on the deal. Get Hillary in there to discuss dodging sniper fire too.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:07 am

Anything would have set these folks off. It’s been simmering for decades.

Yes. I think the last straw was Romney losing after playing all nice-nice. Folks that had wanted to see real change had been disappointed by Bush I, Gingrich, Bush II, McCain (who was an insult to them), The Tea Party (which was fratricided by the House “leadership”) and then Romney failed to sweet-talk his way into the White House.

None of this worked, and then Trump came along and said “No more Mr Nice Guy” and they were his. T

he reason they believe the election was stolen is that they think the Democrats (and/or the bipartisan establishment) would do literally anything to stay in power. Trump knew this and lie or not, all he had to do was say it, and they’d be there.

In my mind the most convincing thing to Trump’s supporters was the monolithic and clearly orchestrated flat denial of any “steal” that started the day after the election and did not let up. That is was said well before anyone could actually know made it fairly unconvincing. They did protest too much, too early.

In any event there was a massive resentment, building since about 1990

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:07 am

Yes, Rob, people make mistakes.
The intellectually honest ones own up to them, which he did. Does that have anything to do with the content of his piece?

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:09 am

I’m trying to use humor to show you that you definition of ‘communist’ is comically wrong since it currently includes a Cruz and Romney. But continue to support people who *literally* attempted to overthrow our government.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:09 am

I’ve talked to some people who still support Trump, won’t get the vaccine, yada yada yada, and when I mention that the steal claims have been shot down in every court they’ve been raised, to them that’s just more proof of the establishment’s corruption.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:09 am

The intellectually honest ones own up to them, which he did. Does that have anything to do with the content of his piece?

The intellectually honest would have apologized then edited the piece to change the Governor’s name to the right one, with a editing note at the bottom. Deleting it was dishonest.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:12 am

4.

“He was in the dining room gleefully watching on his TV as he often did, [saying] ‘Look at all the people fighting for me,’ hitting rewind, watching it again, that’s all that I know,” said the former press secretary.

(That means she didn’t know anything more than the public knows about what he did and didn’t do.)

I think this very recent interview on CNN by Stephanie Grisham could be the best explanation of why Trump cancelled his press conference, originally set for 5 pm Eastern Standard Time today.

It seems like he spent at least part of the time, enjoying the fact that he had some strong supporters. He had no personal feelings that this was wrong. (I think he did recognize it did not approval from any members of Congress that he talked to. I have said he didn’t want to be associated with them, blaming Antifa in his telephone call with Kevin McCarthy, but maybe that was closer to the beginning. I also said he was wanted members of Congress, particularly Senators, not to backtrack from their commitment to object to Electoral votes, but maybe this period in the dining room was when he couldn’t get in contact with any of them.

I also said he would not have thought that he could call them all off, and neither did anyone close to him, and that expecting it to end was not the reason they wanted him to say something (they would have been surprised if it worked) but for his own reputation he should say something, and make an attempt to end it, and maybe at least get the numbers down somewhat, or prevent more from joining in.

It could be that, realizing he probably couldn’t do anything about it, he decided that the next best thing for him to do was to sit back and attempt to enjoy it. He didn’t get any amens on that.

How long did that go on? (Donald Trump re-viewing part of the riot)

Why he didn’t condemn the rioting for three hours was the question that he didn’t want to answer Bill O’Reilly in his recent interviews of Donald Trump. He was silent. Bill O’Reilly said he had to say something, and admit he was wrong to wait. He also said that Trump had to say (in a STATEMENT) that what happened Jan 6 must never happen again.

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:12 am

Tiger dust. It works. You see any loose tigers around? Loonies.

nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:13 am

The Democrats are absolutely incompetent. I don’t know how you could watch them over the last year and think otherwise.

Biden is for sure, but you cannot say that of the various state party machines.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:13 am

In my mind the most convincing thing to Trump’s supporters was the monolithic and clearly orchestrated flat denial of any “steal” that started the day after the election and did not let up. That is was said well before anyone could actually know made it fairly unconvincing. They did protest too much, too early.

It was appalling how they were correct so quickly about what had happened….or they were right all along that the claims of fraud were baseless and in some cases silly?

None of these people have retracted their positions despite the piles of evidence refuting their claims. I think that shows their position wasn’t really based on any facts you could see or check. Since nothing said since then has changed their minds why would I believe anything said during that time formed their opinion?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:14 am

Apparently Darth Cheney paid a visit to the House floor today w/Daughter Darth; said he doesn’t recognize the leadership of the GOP today from his time there.

Guess he wasn’t greeted as a liberator.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:15 am

Stephanie Grisham also said something else of possible significance on CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/06/politics/stephanie-grisham-trump-officials-meeting-cnntv/index.html

“Next week, a group of former Trump staff are going to come together, administration officials are going to come together and we’re going to talk about how we can formally do some things to try and stop him and also, the extremism, that that kind of violence, rhetoric that has been talked about and continues to divide our country,” Grisham told CNN’s John Berman and Brianna Keilar in an interview on “New Day.”

I’m not sure if any of them have any idea what to do.

She had resigned as chief of staff to first lady Melania Trump on January 6, 2021, and didn’t stay the remaining 14 days. (there are other people resigned before that)

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:18 am

when I mention that the steal claims have been shot down in every court they’ve been raised, to them that’s just more proof of the establishment’s corruption.

This demonstrates how willingly deluded these, and supporters like them are. Because no matter the facts present and evidence given that prove that Trump lied about the election results (and continues to do so), they will not, nor will they ever admit that they were hoodwinked by the greatest con of all. I can’t imagine how far gone someone must be to not even acknowledge the slightest possibility that Trump lied in the face of more than 60 courts throwing out the claims that he won. Solomon was right when he said there’s nothing new under the sun because, throughout history, there have always been idol worshippers, cults, and false gods walking among us.

Dana (5395f9) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:19 am

> They believed they were saving democracy from a coup.

and that is why they are dangerous — because they believe this fiction about the election being stolen, they were doing something that they *thought* was saving the country but was in fact trying to steal the election.

in order to save the country from a ghost, they will fundamentally transform it into the very thing they wrongly think they’re trying to avert.

aphrael (4c4719) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:19 am

Aphrael, So what? Every authoritarian supporter in history has believed their motives were pure; protecting the workers (Russian), preventing colonial exploitation (China), preserving their country and avenging the wrongs of the treaty of Versailles (Germany) I’ll bet there were a holes the summer of 2020 who believed their violet actions would result in a more just society.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:25 am

Hey NJRob take a look at 54. Is former VP Dick Chaney now a communist also?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:26 am

Since nothing said since then has changed their minds why would I believe anything said during that time formed their opinion?

No, they haven’t and won’t, because they KNOW in their hearts that he whole system is rigged. They are as sure of that as Bernie’s people are, just with different bogeymen.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:29 am

He never posted anything about the actual governor.

This sounds similar to your past whining to Dana that she wasn’t writing the things you wanted her to. Really mature.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:31 am

in order to save the country from a ghost, they will fundamentally transform it into the very thing they wrongly think they’re trying to avert.

aphrael, they think that the country ceased to be that 20-30 years ago. You think they might break something, they think it’s long broken. When told that the election was a fraud, their first thought was “AGAIN!?!”

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:32 am

This sounds similar to your past whining to Dana that she wasn’t writing the things you wanted her to. Really mature.

If he is willing to write a scathing denunciation of one governor, but give the current governor a pass for doing the things he was so angry about, it does call his honesty into question.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:34 am

Paul, i disagree. If say something incorrect I should admit it and correct. Just deleting it or moving on from the claim lacks integrity. He should have acknowledged his mistake and it looks like he didn’t.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:34 am

@56/57. It’s too easy to get bogged down by the specifics of just one event. Step back from it. These people have seen both these Establishment parties set policies over the past few decades which sent their jobs overseas, disrupted their middle class lives, fight senseless, endless wars w/their kids while their quality of life keeps disintegrating. These people are angry at everything; at being used, seduced and abandoned; at being repeatedly betrayed and at the choices they’re being presented. And perpetual masking and boosters and $5 hamburger and $5 gasoline only fuels the angst. Look at the options presented to them; Biden or Trump or Hillary or Romney, etc., etc…. They’re pissed off– and this is not going to disappear any time soon.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:35 am

@60, Be tough to figure who is a worse human being. A bernie-bro or a Trumper….

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:36 am

I can’t imagine how far gone someone must be to not even acknowledge the slightest possibility that Trump lied in the face of more than 60 courts throwing out the claims that he won.

Dana (5395f9) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:19 am

Did all of those 60 courts compile these

piles of evidence

time mentioned? Did all of them get past any summary judgment issues and to the point of actually having evidence entered on the record that was reviewed as a matter of fact? Did most of them? None of those cases were dismissed for things like standing or other procedural grounds?

frosty (f27e97) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:39 am

Frosty, are you saying you think the election was determined by fraud?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:41 am

The really worrisome thing that intelligent people should be discussing is not “what’s wrong with these people?” but rather “How did we get to the point where nearly half of our citizens think it’s all a fraud?”

People worry about losing our republic, but when that many people disbelive in it, it may be already lost. Trump did not cause this — that’s really the worst mistake to make because it allows you to go on going on — this has been a growing belief since the 90’s. Maybe since the Vietnam War.

Worse, some of the people who don’t believe in the republic don’t support Trump. They support someone like Bernie or AOC, who show signs of wanting godhood themselves.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:42 am

Most of the courts only ruled on standing or timeliness. OTOH, many of the claims showed little evidence and some were pathetic in their drafting.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:45 am

@60, Be tough to figure who is a worse human being. A bernie-bro or a Trumper….

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:36 am

A social leftist who doesn’t want to pay for the harm of their social leftism through taxes and living in the misery they inflict upon others.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:47 am

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:41 am

time, are you saying you don’t want to answer any of the questions in my comment and deflect instead?

frosty (f27e97) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:49 am

Accused Capitol Rioter Edward Jacob Lang Blasts Trump and Begs For His Help in Jailhouse Call
……..
“I am so disappointed in Trump for canceling his January 6th press conference,” Lang said during the call-in interview (to Stew Peters), where he noted that he was on the brink of crying as he urged Trump to step up and fight for the defendants, like himself, who have been charged for their roles in the riot nearly one year ago.

“It just shows how far we have fallen,” he continued, “where is our rally tomorrow?” He added that “there should be a hundred thousand people in D.C. tomorrow at the very minimum…I am so disappointed with Trump and the American people at large that just do not get behind the January 6 political prisoners.”

“President Trump, where are you?” Lang asked aloud at one point.

“You better do a press conference, man,” he concluded, addressing the ex-president. “We are rotting in jail because we stood up for what you told us to stand up for!”
……..
“We had hoped that Trump would address all of the evidence that the chaos of January 6th was orchestrated by agent provocateurs,” the right-wing radio shock jock (Peters) fumed. “Instead, Mar-a-Lago has signaled today a surrender of the narrative.”
…….

Waaaah! Lang is charged with assaulting a police officer with a bat.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:49 am

Kevin, there’s a YUGE overlap between what the typical Bernie-Bro and Trumper want on the economic policy front.

Culturally not so much. Remember the SNL ‘black Jeopardy’ episode with Tom Hanks?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:51 am

@72, I didn’t think you had a point but I wanted to check. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:52 am

in order to save the country from a ghost, they will fundamentally transform it into the very thing they wrongly think they’re trying to avert.

Television presents a view the world through a straw. So the mob appeared magnified and then intensified by edited video clips rolled in loops on ratings hungry cable news outlets. The ‘ghost’ was the apparition of protection; a phantom of the Capitol which, after millions of dollars spent since 9/11 on security, dissolved. The expensive incompetence on display by both parties and their so called ‘leaders’ only adds fuel to flame of populism. And that fire is growing.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:55 am

@69. You’re in the ball park w/that. Vietnam, Watergate, trickle-down, Lewinsky, WMD, Afghanistan, etc., etc. The patterned sense of betrayal is generational now. And it’ll be with us for several cycles to come.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:59 am

https://jonathanturley.org/2022/01/06/destroying-a-democracy-to-save-it-democrats-call-for-the-disqualification-of-dozens-of-republican-members/

This week, Democratic lawyer Marc Elias predicted that 2022 would bring a renewed interest in disqualifying Republican members from office based on an obscure Civil War-era provision. Elias — the former Hilary Clinton campaign general counsel — is a well-known figure in Washington who has been prominently featured in the ongoing investigation of Special Counsel John Durham. Elias has founded a self-described “pro-democracy” group that challenges Republican voting laws and pledges to “shape our elections and democratic institutions for years to come.”

In the age of rage, nothing says democracy like preventing people from running for office.

Elias and others are suggesting that — rather than defeat Republicans at the polls — Democrats in Congress could disqualify the Republicans for supporting or encouraging the Jan. 6 “insurrection.” Last year, Democratic members called for the disqualification of dozens of Republicans. One, Rep. Bill Pascrell (D-N.J.) demanded the disqualification of the 120 House Republicans — including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy(R-Calif.) — for simply signing a “Friend of the Court brief” (or amicus brief) in support of an election challenge from Texas.

Tell me again who is trying to destroy the Republic?

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:01 pm

time mentioned? Did all of them get past any summary judgment issues and to the point of actually having evidence entered on the record that was reviewed as a matter of fact? Did most of them? None of those cases were dismissed for things like standing or other procedural grounds?

This should help answer your question. Rather than being spoon fed a response, the link summarizes all of the election litigation.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:03 pm

On the bright side, I’m almost fully recovered from COVID (the PCR came back positive as well) and the symptoms were the same as the flu. If it wasn’t for the tests, I wouldn’t have known the difference.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:03 pm

but rather “How did we get to the point where nearly half of our citizens think it’s all a fraud?”

Yes

People worry about losing our republic, but when that many people disbelive in it, it may be already lost.

Yep

Trump did not cause this — that’s really the worst mistake to make because it allows you to go on going on

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:42 am

In many cases I think that’s the point. But I would flip this. Trump didn’t cause the issues driving the underlying confidence issues. Trump did cause a number of people to start processing that first quote and seriously considering the second one, ie drawing attention to the underlying issues.

These two issues are conflated on purpose because the point isn’t to fix the underlying problems. The point is to just convince people they aren’t there.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:04 pm

President Biden’s speech this morning:

https://www.newamericanjournal.net/2022/01/video-and-full-transcript-president-joe-biden-speaks-to-congress-on-jan-6-2022

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:08 pm

80, this is good to hear, NJ Rob.

I’ve had 2 bouts of false alarm frenzied testing (negative) after some cold/mild flu symptoms this December. It just reinforces my belief from Nov. 2020, after a 5 hour wait in a drive thru test where I resorted to repopulating an empty Gatorade bottle and objectively felt worse after being dabbed, that these tests put out random AF results. After receiving a negative result, I was told by an urgent care I had costocondritis, inflammation of ribcage cartilage; so I lift more as a way of coping and convincing myself it’s still just costocondritis.

urbanleftbehind (c7d183) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:15 pm

@73. Accused Capitol Rioter Edward Jacob Lang Blasts Trump and Begs For His Help in Jailhouse Call

Mr. Trump likes people who don’t lose insurrections. Seriously. These chumps failed him, so he has no more use for them than for a used tissue. They’re only an embarrassment.

nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:21 pm

‘Accused Capitol Rioter Edward Jacob Lang Blasts Trump and Begs For His Help in Jailhouse Call’

OTOH:

New Manhattan DA won’t prosecute prostitution, resisting arrest, some burglaries as crime in New York skyrockets

https://leoaffairs.com/new-manhattan-da-wont-prosecute-prostitution-resisting-arrest-some-burglaries-as-crime-in-new-york-skyrockets/

Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time. 😉

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:21 pm

There is not one mention in President Biden’s speech of the true method by which then President Trump wanted to overturn the election results – you would think that that mob was his tactic. It was actually the objections and hope that they would be upheld, or maybe changing the default from both Houses having to support and objection to both houses having to overrule Mike Pence (I don’t know if the gamed things out that far)

And had they stolen the Electoral vote certifications, or forced Congress to recess for the next 14 days, Trump would still not have been president, come noon January 20. The only way he could continue as president was by Congress counting him in.

Navarro was hoping for 24 hours of televised debate would change public opinion which would be followed by some states sending in different results which they couldn’t legally do

Now there was a theoretical way for Trump to win without getting any new Electoral votes: Just throw out enough electoral votes so that either Trump has a majority of the remainder, or, if 270 are stll needed, throw the election for president into the House where, voting state by state, Republicans wold have a majority of the states, assuming every Republican voted for him.

But Trump got only 139 votes (out of 435) in the House – less than 1/3 – to uphold his objections, and that was knowing that they would lose (which probably increased the vote in this case)

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:37 pm

I have said he didn’t want to be associated with them, blaming Antifa in his telephone call with Kevin McCarthy, but maybe that was closer to the beginning.

He initially lied to McCarthy, blaming Antifa, but then acknowledged that the rioters were his people. Rep. Herrera-Beutler:

“When McCarthy finally reached the president on Jan. 6 and asked him to publicly and forcefully call off the riot, the president initially repeated the falsehood that it was antifa that had breached the Capitol. McCarthy refuted that and told the president that these were Trump supporters. That’s when, according to McCarthy, the president said, ‘Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are.’

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:41 pm

He should have acknowledged his mistake and it looks like he didn’t.

After MKH called Jonah on it, he replied with this, which is such an acknowledgement, Time.

Yeah I thought he was sworn in already. Tho grabbing his truck would be a baller move.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:45 pm

Did all of them get past any summary judgment issues and to the point of actually having evidence entered on the record that was reviewed as a matter of fact?

Not “all of them”, but multiple judges in multiple states did rule on the evidence presented, and then threw it all out.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:48 pm

I heard two guys on the radio this AM (not the two that took over from Limbaugh) and they see 1-6-21 as a point in a continuum where we need to draw the line.
They were talking about how whataboutism works against both parties finding resolutions, because both need to look inside and stop.
Ideally we’d each take care of our own, Hillary, Trump, etc for no other reason than the next event on the continuum may be worse than 1-6-21.
I thought the radio guys made a good point that its been an escalating tit for tat since Bush-Gore and now we find ourselves here where every President is called “illegitimate”.

I’m of the belief that Trump could be banished from the planet and the next close election would still be a sh** show because neither side trusts the other on elections. Some would say they cannot and should not trust the other and that will live long after Trump and Hillary are hustled off the stage forever

steveg (e81d76) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:48 pm

85. Armed robbery will not get full charges unless someone is killed or wounded, and no murder will get more than 20 years. Burglary not serious if done in a place no person wold be encountered, like a garage.

We have some idiots calling for his recall. The procedure doesn’t exist in New York. And where was the opposition before November, or June?

Now what can be done:

1) A campaign (and.or election issue) can be made for the Governor to appoint a series of well funded special prosecutors to prosecute the kind of crime Alvin Bragg won’t prosecute. (He’s still going to be tough on sex crimes and public corruption and other favorite crimes.)

2) Juveniles to be declared Persons in Need of Supervision and moved upstate.

3) Orders of Protection issued and police enforced. They might be jailed for violating them.

4) Serious community service. Enforced.

5) Federal help, or just trying for it.

Best would be the idea of OSHA not permitting employment in any census tract with a high crime rate, based on the vaccine precedent. That might get those bail laws reversed ad Bragg to change his mind.

Or mass prosecutions opf low level drug dealers and repeat shoplifters and burglars for income tax evasion.

6) Lawsuits to declare some people outlaws and/or also not prosecuting some crimes against them?

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:52 pm

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:41 pm

He initially lied to McCarthy, blaming Antifa, but then acknowledged that the rioters were his people.

Yes. He turned on a dime and dropped it right away.

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:57 pm

NJRob, I’m glad to hear you’re recovering.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 12:57 pm

The really worrisome thing that intelligent people should be discussing is not “what’s wrong with these people?” but rather “How did we get to the point where nearly half of our citizens think it’s all a fraud?”

A huge part of the problem is people they trust lying to them (such as Trump about the election or MTG vaccine deaths). It’s made worse by other’s supporting and going along with the lies (such as Sen Graham or Ron Desantis). Media they trust (e.g. Hannity) feeds it also.

I don’t have much sympathy for well to do terrorists motivated by dishonest conspiracy theories.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:03 pm

#89

Hi Paul

I think perceptions get fouled up when election officials fight against releasing information. It plays into conspiracy lovers hands. Another thing that needs to change is the “overnight dump” count.
The media puts us to bed with one set of results only to wake up and find the count did a 180 overnight.
The flow of the count needs to improve and the only way to do that is to improve the urban area precinct systems, because they are always lagging and then showing up overnight. It feeds the conspiracy theory that they are waiting to see how many votes they need and then stuffing the ballot box

steveg (e81d76) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:04 pm

Paul, i withdraw my comment.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:05 pm

SteveG, that could be addressed by
1. Not releasing partial vote counts
2. Spending a lot more money on voting Infrastructure in urban areas.

I don’t think GA is interested in funding more infrastructure in Fulton Co. Or MI for Wayne county.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:06 pm

Two Republicans on the House floor today (Liz and Dick Cheney). Kinzinger messaged that he is at home on baby watch.

With that, Gaetz and MTG had some comments about Jan. 6:

“We’re ashamed of nothing,” Gaetz said during a joint appearance on Steve Bannon’s War Room: Pandemic podcast Thursday morning. “Seize the day,” Bannon interjected. Gaetz continued, as Greene nodded along, “We’re proud of the work we did on Jan. 6 to make legitimate arguments about election integrity… And we’re actually going to go walk the grounds that patriotic Americans walked from the White House to the Capitol who had no intent of breaking the law or doing violence.” While walking those grounds on Thursday afternoon, Gaetz called the Jan. 6 events “less of an insurrection and more of a fed-surrection,” parroting a baseless right-wing talking point that the Capitol riots were a “false flag” operation by federal agents.

Video at link.

Dana (5395f9) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:22 pm

What despicable liars.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:29 pm

At least we’re treating the people arrested fairly. I mean that. Bail is rightly intended to ensure the community is protected and ensure presence at trial. Pre-Trial containment for other purposes, or bail beyond what is needed for that, is unjust. We should treat more prisoner as justly.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/01/jan-6-capitol-riot-criminal-prosecutions-status.html

Slate analyzed 733 total Capitol arrest cases by combining publicly available databases and reviewing hundreds of individual case files. The trend is clear: Jan. 6 defendants have been sent home to await trial at a far greater rate than the rest of the federal jail population in 2019…. Roughly 85 percent of the defendants who were charged in district court have won some kind of pretrial release, and only 15 percent have had to await trial in jail. Contrast this number with the ordinary pretrial release rate and it seems clear that Jan. 6 defendants are receiving special treatment. In 2019, only 42 percent of federal defendants were released from jail while waiting for their court date or for their case to resolve. In that same year, 58 percent of federal defendants were made to await trial in jail.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:36 pm

Time123,

that’s pure propaganda from Slate. How many people charged with trespassing have been held in jail at all rather than given a summons and sent on their way?

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:39 pm

NJRob, the data is available online. The DOJ has a tracker. You’re welcome to provide your own analysis and show they’re wrong. Right now it looks like, yet again, the facts don’t support your position.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:42 pm

Re: New Manhattan DA won’t prosecute prostitution, resisting arrest, some burglaries as crime in New York skyrockets
There are plenty of exceptions:

Resisting arrest can only be charged if the person is resisting arrest for a serious crime — and the charge of obstructing governmental administration can only be charged against people who are aiding someone who is resisting arrest.

Bragg asked his staff not to pursue certain misdemeanor cases of trespassing — so long as they don’t involve stalking or crimes covered by laws meant to bar abuse by family members against each other.

Burglary can only be prosecuted as having happened in someone’s home if suspects enter a place with direct access to a building’s residential space, the memo says.

That means people who burglarize apartment building basements, or basements of commercial buildings with apartments on upper floors, would face burglary charges carrying lesser punishments.

Bragg said that in prostitution cases, assistant district attorneys can still charge sex traffickers and pimps. And any of the misdemeanor charges on Bragg’s list can be prosecuted if they are part of an indictment that includes a felony charge.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:45 pm

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:39 pm:

Capitol Breach Cases

Below is a list of defendants charged in federal court in the District of Columbia related to crimes committed at the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C, on Wednesday, Jan. 6, 2021.

Every case is being prosecuted by the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia. Following arrests, or surrender, defendants must appear before district court magistrate/judge where the arrest takes place, in accordance with the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
……….

Enjoy.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:49 pm

https://thefederalist.com/2022/01/06/mass-gov-blames-trump-for-black-nationalist-murder-of-capitol-policeman-killed-last-april/

“One year ago, citizens across this nation turned away the forces threatening the democratic process and saw through a fair, transparent election for the most powerful office in the world – proving again the system is greater than a single faction,” Baker wrote in a statement.

Capitol Police Officer William Evans died in April after 25-year-old Noah Green, a devout follower of the Nation of Islam and the radical Louis Farrakhan, rammed into a Capitol barricade and attacked officers with a knife.

But in Baker’s statement claiming that the actions of “Trump and his allies” on Jan. 6, 2021 would “stain this nation’s history forever,” the Republican governor attributed Evans’s death to the Capitol riot.

“One of those officers who lost his life that day was William Evans, a North Adams native who tragically leaves a beautiful family. His actions and his colleagues’ actions that day will stand as shining examples of heroism and bravery,” Baker wrote.

Just another example to add to the batch of a garbage politician trying to score political points off the bodies of the dead.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:50 pm

You’re in the ball park w/that. Vietnam, Watergate, trickle-down, Lewinsky, WMD, Afghanistan, etc., etc. The patterned sense of betrayal is generational now. And it’ll be with us for several cycles to come.

The problem is also what they focus on, or what they are made to focus on. Were they betrayed when Reagan said he’d stop inflation, win the Cold War and money would trickle down, because money did not trickle down to them? Were they betrayed when Johnson said he’d end Jim Crow and poverty and only ended one while making the other worse? Were they betrayed when Obama said that he’d change the way people looked at Presidents and then was followed by Trump?

A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:52 pm

Mr. Trump likes people who don’t lose insurrections. Seriously. These chumps failed him, so he has no more use for them than for a used tissue. They’re only an embarrassment.

The GOP candidate will be asked if he will pardon those convicted in the Jan 6th event. WHhat will s/he say?

1) No, they deserve the punishment they got for this attack on our nation’s government.

2) Yes, these patriots should never have been charged.

of

3) We’ll look at this on an individual basis. It’s really not a good idea to make promises of this sort without the facts.

I think 3) is correct, but 2) is likely, especially if Trump is the nominee.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:58 pm

The Bee is knocking it out of the park with Jan/6 articles

frosty (47863e) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:00 pm

Yeah I thought he was sworn in already. Tho grabbing his truck would be a baller move.

You still miss the point. It wasn’t the acknowledgement that is at issue. That was a flat minimum for not being a complete jerk. The HONEST move would be to leave the article up with the facts corrected.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:03 pm

Now what can be done:

Well, if you shoot the bastard, you only get 20 years…

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:04 pm

Capitol rioter compares attacks on her to treatment of ‘Jews in Germany’

Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has sought to parlay her role in the Capitol riot into a career as a right-wing media personality, posted a tweet in March last year that quickly went viral.

“Sorry, I have blonde hair, white skin, a great job, a great future, and I’m not going to jail,” she wrote.

Ryan’s braggadocio apparently backfired. She was later sentenced to 60 days in prison……
…….
“They’re making fun of my skin color. They’re calling me an ‘insurrection Barbie,’” she said.

“They have no idea who I am as a person, what my beliefs are, what I’ve been through, who I am,” she added. “They see me as a one-dimensional caricature. They don’t see me as a human.”

“And so, that is the epitome of a scapegoat. Just like they did that to the Jews in Germany. Those were scapegoats. And I believe that people who are Caucasian are being turned into evil in front of the media.”

Pressed whether she was comparing the situation to the Holocaust, Ryan said she was reluctant to say more.

“You know what’s so sad?” she responded. “That I’m afraid to answer your question because I will be attacked for saying that.”
…….
Ryan, who already had a large social media following, recorded herself saying she was “going to war” and ready to “storm the Capitol,” prosecutors noted at her sentencing.
………
“You guys, will you believe this?” Ryan said on Facebook Live while inside the Capitol, according to the sentencing memo. “I am not messing around. When I come to sell your house, this is what I will do. I will f—ing sell your house.”

On the Capitol steps, she declared that she was “tired of paying taxes” to “crooks,” prosecutors said in the memo. But she has not consistently paid her taxes over the years, according to the memo, and at the time owed $35,000 in back taxes. (She settled her debt in April.)
……..
Ryan has since launched a podcast and a blog. On her website, she describes herself as an author and activist and asks for donations to cover legal fees. Her blog features only a handful of posts that range from promoting Covid-19 vaccine misinformation to conspiracies around the Jan. 6 Capitol riot.
……..
Sad!

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:05 pm

I wonder why Georgia suddenly decided that the election was fraudulent. That illegal ballot harvesting was rampant, subpoenas and arrests are happening.

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:11 pm

Speaking of trying to steal the election 4th person (charles barnes) at the villages (fla.)has been arrested for voter fraud in an ongoing investigation of a republican conspiracy to steal the 2020 election in fla. for trump.

asset (95fed1) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:12 pm

Or is it another wild story, time will tell. In ten years where Jan 6th will be in history will be interesting

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:12 pm

@102 i don’t think you actually read your link

There are a number of plausible explanations for this phenomenon. Only 30 percent of those arrested on Jan. 6 had a previous criminal history, according to a comprehensive analysis by Robert Pape. Judges take past history into consideration at a number of points in the criminal process, including when deciding who gets to go home and who does not. A recent study by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found that nearly 73 percent of people convicted of federal crimes had at least one prior conviction.

Notably, only about half of the Jan. 6 defendants have been charged with felonies—which, compared with misdemeanor cases, generally are less likely to lead to pretrial release—as opposed to 94 percent of defendants in federal criminal cases in 2019. Finally, and perhaps most critically, Jan. 6 defendants appear to have more resources than the average criminal defendant, reportedly hiring private attorneys at four times the rate of a typical defendant.

more than 50% of federal defendants have a criminal history, and 40% have a criminal history category of 3 or worse, out of 6 categories in total.

but don’t you worry, your link has an answer for why jan6 defendants are getting such a free ride:

It’s hard not to look at the numbers and see another trend: Defendants in Jan. 6 cases are much more likely to be white than those in a typical federal criminal case.

so, there you go

you probably still like your link cuz it begs for more CRT

JF (e1156d) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:14 pm

asset,

Florida had many stolen elections, mayors, state senators going to jail. Broward county officials, convicted. All recent, so when yo see story recount didnt do anything, thats patently untrue, signature verification was turned off in states Biden barely won. So he didnt, the rules of the election were violated en mass

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:16 pm

steveg (e81d76) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:04 pm

I can’t disagree, but for electoral results to be produced/reported evenly across all the states means some sort of federal voting legislation to uniformly direct how the states should do it. Since I kind of like our federalist system, I’m disinclined to go along with that, especially since actual incidences of fraud have proven to be rare (except for those damn seniors at The Villages).

Also, we’re talking about perceptions of questionable practices, not reality, and those perceptions can be mostly sourced to one person, Trump. Had he conceded the Saturday after the election, there would be hardly be any complaints about fraud, there could have been enough Georgia Republicans to show up to keep McConnell as Majority Leader, and there would be no insurrection.

I recall there were complaints about polling result “dumps” in the middle of the night, but in several cases, this was caused by state legislatures (no small number of them being Republican majority such as Wisconsin and Michigan), where counters were required to count or report in-person voting first, and then do the mail-ins. It would be so much easier and efficient to change the timing of counting mail-in votes, but that’s their call to make, IMO.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:17 pm

https://amgreatness.com/2022/01/06/antifa-linked-organizers-who-planned-to-disrupt-trumps-inauguration-host-candlelight-vigil-for-jan-6-anniversary/

Nothing to see here considering it’s more of the same from the left.

Senator Wellstone funeral ring a bell?

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:21 pm

@116 this is about voter fraud not politicians like N.C. 9 in 2018. I give evidence of actual arrests and prosecutions not self-serving suppositions of what you think happened. Show arrests and prosecutions like I do not what you think happened.

asset (95fed1) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:22 pm

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:42 pm

The Slate rundown is pretty factual, and it’s consistent with the Insider’s database, which I use quite a bit (they show 738 criminally charged and 171 guilty pleas).

The number who remain incarcerated is a fraction of the 738, and they’re still in the slammer because of parole violations or are flight risks or were in one of the groups (such as Oathkeepers or Proud Boys or Three Percenters) who were plotting mischief. There have been charges of mistreatment, one of them pretty obvious (Worrell). Judge Lamberth ordered the relocation of 400 prisoners because of mistreatment, but MAGAs were a small percentage of that, so that was part of a larger management problem.

The Insider database also shows that pretty much every person criminally charged was a MAGA zealot, except for the guy (Sullivan) who was kicked out of three Antifa chapters. If there’s another lefty or three in the bunch, I haven’t seen it.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:34 pm

Kabuki Theatre…

It’s amusing to watch the same people who pitched a four-year long tantrum speculate about the peaceful transfer of power.

Or anything else.

Colonel Haiku (4c1485) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:40 pm

R.I.P. Peter Bogdanovich, 82

The last picture has been shown.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:46 pm

I am really quite surprised that Biden went all in with the Officer Sicknick blood libel.

He also tried to blame the killing of Officer Evans on the J6 protest. Evans was killed 3 months later by a Farrakhan supporter.

The Biden regime really is quite desperate and it’s supporters are looking pretty bad right now.

Achilles (be0e24) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:47 pm

I wonder why Georgia suddenly decided that the election was fraudulent.

They didn’t.

That illegal ballot harvesting was rampant, subpoenas and arrests are happening.

They’re investigating an allegation involving a reported 5,000 ballots. Biden won by 11,779. Raffensperger is doing his job, looking into it.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:49 pm

@106. The betrayals were selective in multiple sectors, then spread across the land. You know, the old ‘a recession is when your neighbor loses their job; a depression is when you lose yours’ type thing. Every administration carries fault and blame for this and we can waste time naming names of the self-interest guilty- as well as the hired, unelected minions who did the dirty work. It’s really going to take several cycles even after a new direction is defined and fresh leadership gets things moving again. Ol’Joe discovered that when his ‘unity’ crap came crashing down like the Hindenburg. And the contrast between the “traditional” swampy Biden-style and the bull-in-the-China-shop-Trump-style is clear. Joe will be the last one of those types. But don’t look for clarity in the rank and file of the rodents running these Establishment parties today. It took decades to get to this point and it will take years to reverse it- unless an external act forces itself upon the country.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:00 pm

Two Republicans on the House floor today (Liz and Dick Cheney)

Two?

Maybe more like a retired one:

Wyoming GOP votes to no longer recognize Liz Cheney

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/liz-cheney-wyoming-republican-party-recognize/

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:05 pm

@123. It’ll always be his ‘Syphilis Speech’ to me. Awkward to hear, way too long and much too easy to tune out.

A bowl of instant oatmeal is more inspiring.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:09 pm

“… a Day which ought to be for ever remembered in America, animated with a zeal for their country then upon the brink of destruction, and resolved, at once to save her…”

Sound familiar?

From a 1765 Boston Gazette article written by Samuel Adams referring to the anti-Stamp Act activists for the first time in print as “Sons of Liberty.”

https://www.bostonteapartyship.com/sons-of-liberty

the Royalists need their cage rattled. Jailing populist activists only fuels more discontent and creates martyrs to the cause.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:17 pm

94. Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/6/2022 @ 1:03 pm

A huge part of the problem is people they trust lying to them (such as Trump about the election or MTG vaccine deaths).

Not just Trump (and this claim about vaccine deaths is probably not widesoread.

It’s major (high ratings) talk radio and Cable news network hosts. Who, if they don’t endorse everything, endorse the basic idea. And Giuliani.

And then no detailed refutations – and the pro lie arguments run over their heads.

Media they trust (e.g. Hannity) feeds it also.

I think that’s the main thing responsible for these hih poll numbers. It helps for there to be a lack of complete honesty on the other side.

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:20 pm

Bunch of goddam drama queens.

Colonel Haiku (4c1485) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:21 pm

Woman tied to Capitol riots was wrong-way driver in fatal crash in Franklin County (St. Louis)
……..
The crash happened just after 7 p.m. Wednesday…..The woman who died in the crash was identified as 32-year-old Victoria N. Wilson of St. Clair. She was a passenger in a car that was hit by (22-year-old Emily E. Hernandez), police said. Wilson’s husband was seriously hurt.

Hernandez was issued a citation Wednesday night at the hospital for two felonies: driving while intoxicated resulting in death, and driving while intoxicated resulting in injury. …….
……..
Hernandez is facing five misdemeanors in U.S. District Court in Washington, including knowingly entering a restricted building without authority, demonstrating in the Capitol, stealing, and knowingly engaging in disorderly conduct in a restricted building with intent to impede the government.

Pictures and videos from inside and outside the Capitol show a smiling Hernandez holding up a piece of a sign from Pelosi’s office. Charging documents say tipsters told the FBI that it was Hernandez, and also said she’d posted pictures of herself in the Capitol via Snapchat.
…….
Victoria Wilson, the woman killed in the crash, was the mother of two boys, ages 15 and 10. Her husband, Ryan, is a stay-at-home father and the boys were being homeschooled since the COVID-19 outbreak.
……..
“Why is she still out?” (Victoria’s mother, Tonie Donaldson) told the Post-Dispatch. “With what she did to the government, why is she still walking the street?”
……..
Tragic. Her jail time for these felonies would make any misdemeanor time look easy.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:24 pm

Right on, Col.

mg (8cbc69) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:29 pm

‘The only place Joe Biden “stands in the breach” is at the soft serve line at Golden Corral.’

— – Kyle Shideler

Colonel Haiku (4c1485) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:30 pm

Happy New Year, mg!

Colonel Haiku (4c1485) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:31 pm

Back at you and the family, Col.

mg (8cbc69) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:32 pm

Bunch of goddam drama queens.

Thespians all; beats working, too:

https://www.house.gov/legislative-activity

The $15-a-pint-ice-cream-lady needs time to restock her $5000 refrigerator/freezer.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:34 pm

Time123 — if we’re going to successfully defeat them, we have to understand what they think they’re doing and why. persuasion is impossible if we don’t start from there.

aphrael (4c4719) — 1/6/2022 @ 3:38 pm

It was all about him, and he was pleased to see his minions go to battle on his behalf. He was happy they rioted – not for the country, or the Constitution, or the rule of law, but for him.

The most obvious fact about Donald Trump is his extraordinarily self-centered understanding of right and wrong, true and false. He may find it in his interest to do things you like, for a long time perhaps, but he will never subordinate his desires or his ego to any other value.

It’s a tragedy that most of a political party have decided that Trump is the supreme measure of patriotism and truth, and will exchange any values for loyalty to him. .

Radegunda (d7e952) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:13 pm

Now do the Democrats.

Colonel Haiku (4c1485) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:22 pm

when I mention that the steal claims have been shot down in every court they’ve been raised, to them that’s just more proof of the establishment’s corruption.

Back in the 2015-16 primaries, when I still listened to some right-wing radio, I heard Trump fans say things like: “The more they attack him, the more I’ll support him,” and “There’s nothing he could do that would make me stop supporting him.” In online forums, Trump fans got unusually angry at any criticism of him.

It’s true cult thinking. No matter how many people came out of the administration talking about how dishonest, ignorant, unhinged, or callous his behavior was, it could only mean that the critics were revealing themselves as bad, treacherous people.

A long-building suspicion of bureaucracy or “the establishment” was attached to a cult figure whose mission was to defy rules and smash norms and fight “the system,” and he could never, ever be wrong. Only the system could be wrong.

That thinking meshed perfectly with Trump’s belief that he is never wrong or at fault for anything, and can never lose a fair contest.

Radegunda (d7e952) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:25 pm

My favorite part of the Hoax Insurrection proceedings today has to be the appearance of of the cast of Hamilton to sing a song!

You know the democraticals are serious about leveraging their hoax insurrection lies to achieve permanent federal control of cheatable elections when they bring out their broadway show “heavies”!

—- Drago

Colonel Haiku (4c1485) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:26 pm

neither side trusts the other on elections.

Trumpers don’t trust Republican officials on elections when those Republicans affirm that Trump lost legitimately.

Trump certainly amplified right-wing distrust in elections far beyond what it was before. Then, Trump’s narcissism set up a pretext for partisans to seize control of deciding elections, which will only deepen distrust and animosity when Trump’s gargantuan ego is no longer a factor.

Radegunda (d7e952) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:31 pm

Mob behavior is scary, but underlying the January 6th mob was another instance of mob psychology–the kind that is fomented by social media.

In the old days, a person’s crazy political ideas were unlikely to go very far before being checked by a family member, friend, or neighbor. Social media bypasses all that, and allows crazies to easily bond with other crazies, with the result that the participant thinks he or she is smart and well-informed.

Add in the fact that people can say more revolting things behind a digital face than they would in person, and you have a recipe for a self-reinforcing, malignant horde.

norcal (d4ed1d) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:35 pm

And how great is it for Joe & Kamala to top this day off than with the observations in a NYT op-ed from an old ex-peanut farmer turned Southern governor w/t legacy as a malaise riddled, one-term POTUS; cardigan clad, gas-liner; inflation riddled, radiating the confidence of a Three Mile Islander, a Desert One planner and Iranian Hostage humiliation, turned carpenter– who lost to a B-movie actor:

https://www.the-sun.com/news/4407979/what-did-jimmy-carters-op-ed-say/

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:37 pm

@121 and @123. Amusing and surprised? Is this one of those sarcasm things I keep hearing about?

I’m surprised he didn’t blame the 2021 covid deaths or inflation on Jan/6.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:40 pm

Tragic. Her jail time for these felonies would make any misdemeanor time look easy.

A federal misdemeanor can carry up to five years, a state felony as little as one year.

nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:43 pm

I wrote about this last year, but it bears a repeat. I spent January 6, 2021 hiking with a Chinese woman in the Bay Area. She has an application for political asylum pending. She speaks virtually no English, yet is a full-on Trumper, and said she would have gone to DC that day if it hadn’t been for her elderly mother and teenage son. She also said that she would rather see her asylum application denied than Biden become president. Lin Wood was one of her heroes. At one point I was talking to her son about hunting, and she thought I was talking about Hunter Biden! She was completely steeped in American politics, and had even purchased Trump wine and other doodads.

It was so shocking to me that the Trump worship had transcended the language and culture barrier. I wouldn’t be surprised if she regrets hiking with me that day, because she missed out on all the live coverage.

Trump has engendered more craziness than any President in U.S. history.

norcal (d4ed1d) — 1/6/2022 @ 4:43 pm

The etymology of “ruffian”, as in a violent or lawless person, is from the French and Italian word rufian/ruffiano for pimp as in panderer of prostitutes. Endogeny recapitulates endogamy. On 1/6/21, Trump and his followers met both definitions.

nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:01 pm

You are a master ruffler, nk.

norcal (d4ed1d) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:13 pm

I heard the d.c. cops beat a girl to death on Jan 6 and another is in a coma. I thought the left was against pig violence?

mg (8cbc69) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:18 pm

Don’t forget, the Speaker of the House literally tore up the text of the SOTU speech delivered by the President of the United States on live television. The blatant arrogance of the Royalists runs deep.

They deserve a cage rattling.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:27 pm

Good point, DCSCA. I had forgotten about that. People need to call out low behavior on both sides.

norcal (d4ed1d) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:29 pm

Trump on September 23, 2020:
“Get rid of the ballots and you’ll have a very peaceful… there won’t be a transfer, frankly, there’ll be a continuation …”

Telling it like it is!

Radegunda (219e30) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:36 pm

Must see TeeVee: Ted Cruz grovels to Tucka.

Hilarious.

Ol’Ted has no shame.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:36 pm

Biden won by 11,779. Raffensperger is doing his job, looking into it.

You try logic when you know that’s not what anybody wants. As Brutus found out when Marc Antony spoke.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:47 pm

https://redstate.com/kiradavis/2022/01/06/watch-father-of-tennis-star-novak-djokovic-shreds-australian-fascism-they-want-us-on-our-knees-n502755

Serbian tennis champion Novak Djokovic is the latest innocent victim to be sacrificed on the altar of COVID at the Australian cult headquarters. The reigning Australian Open champ has not been vaccinated against COVID but he has already contracted it and recovered from it. Two separate medical boards cleared him to return to play without the vaccination, concluding that his natural immunity should satisfy Australia’s supposed safety protocols. Australia agreed and allowed Djokovic entry, but then he made the mistake of celebrating his travels, and all hell broke loose.

Rightfully so, Australians were outraged. After two years of increasingly fascistic and draconian lockdown punishments on the average Australian citizen, the fact that the nation’s leaders think it’s not safe for people to move about freely to work and school but it is safe for world-class sporting events to continue must feel like a slap in the face. They let their leaders know as much, and Prime Minister Scott Morrison was then forced to pretend like he didn’t approve the entry of the world’s best tennis player into their tournament and held a press conference announcing his righteous indignation.

It was all blatantly political and remains so. Australia claims they have revoked Djokovic’s exemptions and they are currently detaining him. However, Djokovic’s father made a public statement from Serbia on Thursday, directly and passionately contradicting the Australian authorities and accusing them of imprisoning his son. The senior Djokovic said this isn’t about safety but about humiliating his son, preventing him from competing fairly, and “stomping” on Serbia. He went on to give a rousing speech about the creeping COVID fascism around the globe.

Real examples of the totalitarian mindset governing western societies and the threat to freedom worldwide.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:48 pm

Dems mocked for featuring ‘Hamilton’ cast in ceremony marking Capitol riot

https://nypost.com/2022/01/06/dems-mocked-for-featuring-hamilton-cast-on-capitol-riot-anniversary/

Just unreal.

Apparently the ‘Dancing Itos’ were not available to take Nancy’s call.

Memo to Vladimir: roll the damn tanks, kid. You’ll never have a better opportunity.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:52 pm

Tragic. Her jail time for these felonies would make any misdemeanor time look easy.

Bad: She was driving the wrong way on a highway.
Bad: She was drunk (although that’s implied bythe wrong-way driving).
Bad: The people she hit were not wearing seatbelts.

Cars are pretty good these days and most accidents are survivable if you wear the damn seatbelt.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:53 pm

It’s a tragedy that most of a political party have decided that Trump is the supreme measure of patriotism and truth, and will exchange any values for loyalty to him. .

The tragedy is more that Trump still looks like their best option. Why are they so desperate?

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:56 pm

In 1776, you could, perhaps, talk about an “Establishment” and “Royalists”, without being foolish. But now, those terms are about as useful for understanding American politics, as ghosts and goblins.

But some people believe in them, and rail against them. When I see the terms used, I immediately suspect the person also believes in horoscopes, and other such superstitions.

And demagogues, including Trump, throughout history, have been able to exploit such beliefs.

(The similar use of “elites” comes indirectly, I suspect, from a book by leftist C. Wright Mills.)

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:57 pm

@160. Nonsense. They fit perfectly- even Nancy is wearing a ‘Red Coat’ today.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:59 pm

The way to take control of the GOP away from Trump is NOT to try to convince people that he’s a bad person, or that what he stands for is evil.

The way to take control is to convince them that Trump didn’t deliver and that they can. That Trump talked the talk but didn’t walk the walk, and they show them how they’d do it.

But right now these folks have only one horse to bet on.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:59 pm

A week ago CNN’s Coop was drunk on live TV amidst the gaiety of super-spreader-events in Times Square and 2nite he’s maskless trying to be a serious reporter chatting with Red Coat Nancy. Not exactly a Walter Cronkite moment, Coop.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:04 pm

I heard the d.c. cops beat a girl to death on Jan 6 and another is in a coma.

I never heard about the person in the coma, but Rosanne Boyland died of a drug overdose, per the Medical Examiner, not by beating, not by trampling. There are some right-wing sites like Rumble and Gateway Pundit that are peddling fiction.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:05 pm

But right now these folks have only one horse to bet on.

They’ll find another. Buchanan… Perot… Palin… Trump… someone will pick up the banner after Trump. This angry populism isn’t going away any time soon.

DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:08 pm

You try logic when you know that’s not what anybody wants. As Brutus found out when Marc Antony spoke.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 5:47 pm

Sure, but Brutus was also acting in the interest of a corrupt Republic that had led to the conditions that allowed the rise of Caesar in the first place. He was also under the delusion that murdering Caesar would bring at least a temporary halt to the Populares efforts like it had after the Gracchi brothers, and didn’t understand how deep-seeded the anger really was that a lot of people in Rome had for the Optimates.

The Republic at that point was a rotten, dying tree, and it wouldn’t have mattered at that point what Brutus or his colleagues did or said. Even if they had come out on top and destroyed Antony and Augustus, it’s likely that civil war among the Optimates would have taken place for control of the empire afterwards, and given their institutional hypocrisy, probably would have turned out worse than what the empire enjoyed under Augustus and Agrippa’s administration.

Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:10 pm

Continuing the previous point: The strange thing is that, more than any other prominent American politician, Trump is attracted to actual royalists, the Communist monarch in North Korea, the king of Saudi Arabia, and so on. (Putin, who Trump is also fond of, is not a monarchist, as far as I know — but he might be one, if he had an obvious heir.)

And that helps explain why Trump believes — or says he believe — he has the right to rule. It’s not quite a divine right argument, but comes close.

His supporters, and apologists, seem not to have noticed this, even as they consider backing one of his disgraceful children, while railing against “Monarchists”.

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:11 pm

Actually, the color associated with monarchy is purple.

(In the past, red was associated with the left, especially Communists. But, in recent years, it also came to be associated — only in the United States — with Republicans. I don’t know why so many Republicans have accepted that labeling from the media; perhaps historical ignorance explains the error.)

In Nancy’s case, she probably wears that red dress because she thinks she looks good in it. (Though it would be fun to think that she associates it with some popular songs.)

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:25 pm

(In the past, red was associated with the left, especially Communists. But, in recent years, it also came to be associated — only in the United States — with Republicans. I don’t know why so many Republicans have accepted that labeling from the media; perhaps historical ignorance explains the error.)

No, it’s not historical ignorance, as you put it in your typically smug style–it’s because of the 2000 election, which established today’s divisive political climate. Prior to that, the party out of power was shown as red on the media electoral boards and the incumbent party was shown as blue.

Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:32 pm

Turning to the serious point Patterico began with: What we should do – if we love American democracy — is support those who are defending it, especially those who are debunking the false story that lead to the January 6th attempt to steal an election, and those who are fight Trump and those who follow him.

(As we do this, we should have some sympathy for those who were deluded and recognize that many of them are Trump’s victims, just as those who believed in Trump University, and other scams, were.)

Here’s a very practical suggestion: Whenever Trump appears in public, he should be met with an effigy of himself as a small boy — with his pants on fire. (Of course guards will be needed to protect the effigy, and the people displaying it.)

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:39 pm

FWO – If you are interested in the subject of color coding, I suggest you read this Wikipedia article, carefully.

I can tell you that — had any been asked — in 2000 most serious election scholars would have assigned blue to the Republicans and red to the Democrats. (For example, Kenneth Martis’s “Historical Atlas of Political Parties in the United States Congress, 1789-1989” uses that color scheme.)

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:50 pm

@147 norcal, i’d cut an actual victim of fascist rule some slack

unlike many here, she’s no poseur

and i imagine she has some harrowing stories to tell, if you bothered to ask

JF (e1156d) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:51 pm

Paul Montagu -Did Fauci do the autopsy?

mg (8cbc69) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:55 pm

FWO – If you are interested in the subject of color coding, I suggest you read this Wikipedia article, carefully.

Or, you could just pull up any news media clip of presidential election maps on YouTube.

I can tell you that — had any been asked — in 2000 most serious election scholars would have assigned blue to the Republicans and red to the Democrats. (For example, Kenneth Martis’s “Historical Atlas of Political Parties in the United States Congress, 1789-1989″ uses that color scheme.)

And my secondary school and college survey textbooks used the alternating scheme. Your appeal to authority falls flat here.

Everyone learned about the Red Scares as early as middle school, Jim. We all know very well that the color has been associated with communism for decades. Without Googling or relying on Wikipedia, do you happen to know why Antifa uses red and black flags?

Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:58 pm

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/01/final-thoughts-on-january-6.php

Most reasonable thoughts I’ve read yet today on this so called anniversary.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:59 pm

Here’s a very practical suggestion: Whenever Trump appears in public, he should be met with an effigy of himself as a small boy — with his pants on fire. (Of course guards will be needed to protect the effigy, and the people displaying it.)

I figured you for anti-fa, Jim Miller.

mg (8cbc69) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:02 pm

@170. What should people do who are looking for something more platonic?

frosty (f27e97) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:04 pm

Here’s part of what FWO refused to read:

According to another source, in 1976, John Chancellor, the anchorman for NBC Nightly News, asked his network’s engineers to construct a large illuminated map of the United States. The map was placed in the network’s election-night news studio. If Jimmy Carter, the Democratic candidate that year, won a state, it lit up in red whereas if Gerald Ford, the incumbent Republican president, carried a state, it was in blue.[1] The feature proved to be so popular that, four years later, all three major television networks used colors to designate the states won by the presidential candidates, though not all using the same color scheme. NBC continued its color scheme (blue for Republicans) until 1996.[1] NBC newsman David Brinkley famously referred to the 1980 election map outcome showing Republican Ronald Reagan’s 44-state landslide as resembling a “suburban swimming pool”.[14]

Since the 1984 election, CBS has used the opposite scheme: blue for Democrats, red for Republicans. ABC used yellow for Republicans and blue for Democrats in 1976, then red for Republicans and blue for Democrats in 1980, 1984, and 1988. In 1980, when John Anderson ran a relatively high-profile campaign as an independent candidate, at least one network provisionally indicated that they would use yellow if he were to win a state. Similarly, at least one network would have used yellow to indicate a state won by Ross Perot in 1992 and 1996, though neither of them did claim any states in any of these years.

By 1996, color schemes were relatively mixed, as CNN, CBS, ABC, and The New York Times referred to Democratic states with the color blue and Republican ones as red, while Time and The Washington Post used the opposite scheme.[15][16][17] NBC used the color blue for the incumbent party, which is why blue represented the Democrats in 2000.

(In my opinion, news folks chose their current scheme because they didn’t want to call Democrats “reds’.)

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:18 pm

#176 mg – I am against all dictatorships, and always have been. These days I spend most of my time worrying about the Chinese Communists, whatever you call “Czar” Putin’s regime, and the theocratic dictatorship in Iran.

And you?

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:22 pm

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:18 pm

Here’s the part Jim pointedly avoided quoting, which I mentioned in my response to him:

In the days following the 2000 election, whose outcome was unclear for some time after election day, major media outlets began conforming to the same color scheme because the electoral map was continually in view, and conformity made for easy and instant viewer comprehension. On election night that year, there was no coordinated effort to code Democratic states blue and Republican states red; the association gradually emerged. Partly as a result of this eventual and near-universal color-coding, the terms “red states” and “blue states” entered popular use in the weeks following the 2000 presidential election.

Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:27 pm

(In my opinion, news folks chose their current scheme because they didn’t want to call Democrats “reds’.)

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:18 pm

Media hates reporting the truth?

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:48 pm

Paul Montagu -Did Fauci do the autopsy?

Whatever keeps the bogus narrative alive.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:53 pm

I can tell you that — had any been asked — in 2000 most serious election scholars would have assigned blue to the Republicans and red to the Democrats.

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:50 pm

It was by far the most common. But to be fair, I’ve seen several traditions. One, I believe, was to use blue for the party in power, and red for the party out of power. But I don’t see that anywhere in the article.

Demosthenes (3fd56e) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:55 pm

Jim Miller (edcec1) — 1/6/2022 @ 7:22 pm

I spend most of my time on family, friends, job, etc. I’ve got a couple of hobbies. Some organizations I volunteer with. The CCP and Iranians are bad but I spend an amount of time on them proportional to my ability to do anything about them.

But it sounds like you’re a very important person and I’m glad you’re sacrificing most of your time to it.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/6/2022 @ 8:00 pm

@179. But if most of your time is spent worrying about the CCP and Iranians, given the quality and quantity of your covid posts, have you outsourced the covid stuff?

I heard a story about a guy who hired someone in China to work one of his contracts. Technically he had two jobs and he might have even outsourced both of them. It took a while for his employers to catch on since he was remote.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/6/2022 @ 8:14 pm

and i imagine she has some harrowing stories to tell, if you bothered to ask

JF (e1156d) — 1/6/2022 @ 6:51 pm

Oh, I do cut her some slack. She is a good person caught up in a cause she thinks is just. Unfortunately, she has devoted far too much time to Trump’s lies, time which could have been better spent learning English. (Living in a Chinese bubble in the U.S. is no way to go through life. She’s only in her 40s.)

And I did bother to ask. Yes, she did time in prison, so her asylum case should be a slam dunk, but it’s been pending for 3-4 years now. I even helped her write a letter to inquire about her case. Here it is a year later, and there hasn’t been any development. I believe the slow walk of asylum cases started under Trump; it appears to be continuing under Biden.

norcal (d4ed1d) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:02 pm

Here’s another reason to remember January 6th. Good golly. All kinds of metaphors come to mind.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:02 pm

@186 I believe the slow walk of asylum cases started under Trump; it appears to be continuing under Biden.

her legit asylum claim is probably stuck behind tons of bogus ones filed to game the system

but you’re the immigration expert

that’s trump’s doing is it?

is that what you told your friend?

JF (e1156d) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:39 pm

You still miss the point. It wasn’t the acknowledgement that is at issue. That was a flat minimum for not being a complete jerk. The HONEST move would be to leave the article up with the facts corrected.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 2:03 pm

It was a tweet. You can’t correct a tweet. He posted a new one admitting the error. What else do you want him to do?

lurker (59504c) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:40 pm

I can tell you that — had any been asked — in 2000 most serious election scholars would have assigned blue to the Republicans and red to the Democrats

My take? Far more people have “blue” as their favorite color than have “red” and it is worth a few votes, and this is the kind of right-brain thing that Democrats notice.

I note that Dave Leip’s incredibly useful Atlas of US Presidential Elections uses red for Democrats and Blue for Republicans.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:48 pm

It was a tweet.

OH. Never mind.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:49 pm

I believe the slow walk of asylum cases started under Trump;

There is nothing a bureaucracy does better than the slow walk.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:50 pm

her legit asylum claim is probably stuck behind tons of bogus ones filed to game the system

but you’re the immigration expert

that’s trump’s doing is it?

is that what you told your friend?

JF (e1156d) — 1/6/2022 @ 9:39 pm

My understanding of what Trump did (I’ve been retired for several years) was to adjudicate the most recent asylum claims first, and put previously-filed ones on the backburner, in an attempt to deny bogus asylum claims that were fresh.

This upset the longstanding rule of adjudicating the oldest claims first. So, in an effort to prevent fraud, he ended up hurting people like my friend. What he should have done is streamline the process, and/or hire more officers and judges to adjudicate asylum claims, and/or toughen up immigration law when he had a majority in the House and Senate, while still giving precedence to those who filed first.

(JF, that’s two in a row where you’ve had a snarky tone. If you would like to have a back and forth in the future, you need to tone it down. That goes for a few others as well. I know it’s tempting to take jabs and shots. I used to do the same, but I’ve learned that I’m much happier when I don’t.)

By the way, I texted her tonight. I found out that she has stopped caring about / paying attention to politics, and is learning English. I’m happy for her.

norcal (d4ed1d) — 1/6/2022 @ 11:44 pm

187, yup, especially with Debi Thomas an Olympics earlier as generic Democrat. Nancy Kerrigan was for those people who could not stand Thomas but did not like WT Harding either.

urbanleftbehind (c073c9) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:11 am

I worry about people like you who need guards to protest in anti-fa fashion, Jim Miller.
I have one concern, Jim Miller, my family.

mg (8cbc69) — 1/7/2022 @ 3:02 am

Lets go Braindead.

mg (8cbc69) — 1/7/2022 @ 3:27 am

Aphrael @137, You’re right & I think I understand MAGA pretty well. I think Kevin’s done a good job in a many of his comments. The problem is that they don’t care about the country unless it gives them what they want when they want it. No adherence to the political principles we used to say this country was based on. Because following those principles leads to too many people freely choosing things they dislike.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:25 am

JF@115, I think you misread my comment and assumed some snark or sarcasm where none was intended. I am legitimately pleased that the Jan 6 defendants are being treated fairly and that bail is not being set unfairly or used as a form of punishment. The individuals charged with being part of the terrorist attack (to use Senator Cruz’s description) are innocent until proven guilty and should be treated as such.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:29 am

@166 FWO. Great summary. If you like Podcasts on that subject I highly recommend Dan Carlin. It sounds like you’re well versed in the fall of the republic so his series on that, and the Punic Wars, might not be interesting. But his series “The Celtic Holocaust” about. Ceasar’s conquest is also really good, as are most of his podcasts. I really liked his “Wrath of the Khan’s”

Commenting because I think you might like it, not trying to imply any gap in your understanding or that I think you’ve gotten anything wrong.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:35 am

Here’s some karma. An AZ judge just levied fines against CyberNinjas to the tune of $50,000 per day, so Doug Logan decided to fire all staff and shut down the company rather comply with a court order to turn over records, emails and text messages.

You don’t do that kind of thing if you actually did find 47,000 or 55,000 fraudulent ballots, or conduct an “audit” with any degree of integrity or competence.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:54 am

Oops, I need to update my comment. Ted Cruz no longer calls the Trump supporters who violently attacked police officers in an effort to physically prevent congress from certifying the election “Terrorists”.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-diehards-rebuke-ted-cruz-for-calling-capitol-rioters-terrorists-2022-1

What a cowardly and mewling little man. I used to live in Texas. I think Cruze is vulnerable from a Primary challenge by someone running on a platform of “I’m conservative and not a giant spineless sponge”

I wonder if he thinks the Trump supporter that showed up with a bunch of guns and Bombs is a terrorist?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/capitol-riot-molotov-cocktail-trump-b1957164.html

Not that he was the only armed person there.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-weapons-deadly-dangerous/

It’s hard to know the extent to which the Totally-Not-Terrorists were armed. LEO made very few arrests that day. They let the Totally-Not-Terrorist disperse and arrested them later through investigative techniques. Pretty easy in some cases as many of the Totally-Not-Terrorists thought they were above punishment and bragged about their involvement. One such example here figured her race would help protect her.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jenna-ryan-texas-trump-capitol-riot_n_617e044ae4b03072d7051889

While the authorities decision certainly reduced our understand of who was there and what they were doing it has an upside. Trying to arrest all of the ‘totally-not-terrorists’ who physically took control of the Capital building through force would likely have resulted in more violence and injury. I don’t know if it played out the way it did on purpose, or if the authorities didn’t have a choice. But looking back there’s a strong argument to be made the approach we (the US people through our government officials) used was a good one relative to more violent responses..

But from what we know the claim that the totally-not-terrorists (maybe just call them “harmless goofballs who got a teensy bit carried away”) weren’t armed is a flat lie. Not that I expect the people sympathetic to these ~~terrorists~~ ~~fun loving scamps~~ Violent rioters who used force to disrupt the the transfer of power based on lies still being pushed by the GOP to care about facts.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 6:08 am

Paul, IANAL but isn’t there a rule that the cop officers running a company can’t do that? Director Liability or something?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 6:09 am

IANAL either, Time, but I hope Logan has a good lawyer, for his sake.
But the thing is, because CyberNinjas didn’t actually find fraud is just more evidence that the Establishment is hiding it!

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/7/2022 @ 6:14 am

Actually, Logan may not be off the hook, per the judge.

Hannah said the $50,000 daily fine would begin accruing on Friday and warned that, if necessary, he will apply the fine to individuals, not just the Cyber Ninjas corporation.

“The court is not going to accept the assertion that Cyber Ninjas is an empty shell and that no one is responsible for seeing that it complies,” Hannah said.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/7/2022 @ 6:22 am

@201. Is this a different standard than you had in the Rittenhouse case? There the rule was not persuasive until proven in court correct?

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 6:44 am

@205, I wrote a pretty lengthy comment. Which part are you referring to?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 6:50 am

@ 201

It was a gaffe Time… simply as that.

Those rioters are rioters. Just like rioters that burned crap down in the BLM/Anti-fa movements or the rioters who burned DC on Trump’s inauguration day.

Calling them “terrorists” waters down the meaning of that word and Cruz was caught up in the rhetoric of that day.

Call those who violent attacked police officers and destroyed property rioters.

For all the time some commenters claim Trump’s rhetoric caused this sordid event, its amazing to me the amount of willful eagerness to call these rioters ‘terrorists’ and be totally blind on divisiveness of these kinds of commentary are to the national psyche.

I wonder if he thinks the Trump supporter that showed up with a bunch of guns and Bombs is a terrorist?

This is a ridiculous comment. OF COURSE he’d label them a domestic terrorist at the very least. I would too. Or, whatever framework used to describe James Hodgkinson when he tried to assassinate the GOP charity-baseball team. That’s the other side of the issue, these inconsistent labelings of what our eyes are telling us.

Why do you think the news reporter in Wisconsin saying “Mostly peaceful protest” with a building on fire gets so much mockery by the right? But that is *the* avatar how the media, politically-left, adjust the narrative to be politically-left friendly as possible. Same with the “Let’s Go Brandon” chant. That, first and foremost, wasn’t simply a nice way to say “F U Biden”, but a meme mocking the media’s propensity to craft favorable Democrat/Left-leaning narrative.

This is the problem. Overinflating or purposely using hyperbolic phrasing does more to divide this country. And Cruz got caught up in that rhetoric. Its a gaffe, and a pretty bad one.

The Democrats, and the anti-Trumpers, are trying to use the actions of a few to discredit the concerns of the many. Classic painting-with-as-wide-as-a-brush as you can get.

Absolutely frustrating.

whembly (123289) — 1/7/2022 @ 7:18 am

199–Time, thanks for the recommends. I do like that Kevin brings up Rome in these comparisons from time to time because I agree with him that there are parallels to be made between then and now, although they obviously aren’t perfect correlations.

But there are still important lessons to be gained from that era, notably that when a society is looking in the face of populist movements, the ruling classes are far better off addressing those concerns in a constructive way rather than blowing them off. This is different than confronting legitimately subversive movements, of course, but they still have to be able to distinguish between the two.

Factory Working Orphan (4d5276) — 1/7/2022 @ 7:24 am

Well said whembly.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 7:49 am

#207

I agree that I don’t think “terrorists” is the right word for the capitol invaders. Mob and rabble work better. But — the conflation with the BLM group is pretty bogus. The BLM folks were not looking to overturn the national government. It’s pretty clear, once you work through all the nonsense, that was precisely what the Capitol mob was about.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 7:51 am

I think that once you work through all the nonsense the literal fact is that Trump and his Deplorables couldn’t ~~find their asses if they used both hands (in broad daylight)~~ get him reelected by fair means of foul. Losers.

nk (1d9030) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:07 am

@210

The BLM folks were not looking to overturn the national government.

And this is another example of toxic hyperbole.

The rioters on 1/6 wasn’t trying to overturn the national government. There was no “plan” by these people, other than acting on their displeasures in a violent means. Like a rioter.

So, yes, exactly like those BLM rioters.

We can have a nuance discussion here. Those who violently damaged property, assaulted officers and/or illegally trespassed SHOULD be prosecuted. No argument from me here.

I just wish the government threw the book at the BLM rioters with the same vigor as the 1/6 rioters.

But it’s really difficult to have nuanced discussions when the other side of the argument keep using rhetoric like “terrorist”, “coup”, “insurrection” or what have you.

whembly (36ab5f) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:08 am

This is a ridiculous comment. OF COURSE he’d label them a domestic terrorist at the very least. I would too. Or, whatever framework used to describe James Hodgkinson when he tried to assassinate the GOP charity-baseball team. That’s the other side of the issue, these inconsistent labelings of what our eyes are telling us.

whembly (123289) — 1/7/2022 @ 7:18 am

You are 100% correct on the inconsistent labeling.

There is a slight difference between those two though. One showed up with weapons and used them to achieve a political goal. One showed up with weapons. Now, it might be that Coffman did intend to use them but here’s what was charged and some comentary:

He pleaded guilty Friday to possession of an unregistered firearm and carrying a pistol without a license.

All of the charges are possession and here’s a statement he made in court

The judge asked Coffman if he put gasoline, lighter, rags in the jars before coming to D.C.

Coffman replied, “Yes, Your Honor, I didn’t plan any action with those things…. they had been in my truck for some time… I didn’t plan on blowing nothing up.”

And if you’re thinking I’m avoiding the intent issue because he was prevented from carrying out his plan and I just want to avoid that and hope you don’t notice

Coffman lived in Falkville up until his arrest, which was just hours after the Jan. 6 riot at the Capitol.

and finally

Coffman faces up to 46 months in federal prison for the charge relating to the Molotov cocktails and up to five years on the gun charge.

We’re setting a low bar on domestic terrorist if it’s based on possession. If that is in fact the standard your point about inconsistent labeling is even more relevant.

And because we now have to say the obvious; he broke the law and he gets to spend some time in prison for it and I don’t have a problem with that.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:17 am

“Overinflating or purposely using hyperbolic phrasing does more to divide this country.”

But underinflating is also equally frustrating. We have a party that is acting like the President sitting in the White House not responding to a violent occupation of the Capitol has done nothing wrong….and still deserves to drive the party’s narrative. It very well may be that a sociopath is in charge….and wants to reshape election norms…..and most GOP apologists are hung up on strained BLM analogies. If there were direct connections between BLM violence and Biden….or any other leading DEM Presidential candidate….and BLM was threatening the legitimacy of elections then fine, it would be fair and relevant. But as it sits, it just seems like any criticism of Trump….ANY….has been over personalized to the point that makes good-faith discussion difficult. Everything doesn’t have to be a what-about…

AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:18 am

“The rioters on 1/6 wasn’t trying to overturn the national government.”

But this isn’t the point. It’s what Trump did to inspire it…and what he didn’t do to stop it. Optically it looks bad because the rioters were disrupting the electoral vote count….and made it seem…through their rhetoric and the building of gallows…..that they were targeting elected representatives…including the vice president….for punishment and operating at the behest of Trump. We can dismiss it afterwards as being totally inept and disorganized…but few during the event looked at it that way. They were really lucky that more people weren’t shot….

AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:24 am

@213

There is a slight difference between those two though. One showed up with weapons and used them to achieve a political goal. One showed up with weapons.

My point was that framework used to label “x” actions. There’s obvious inconsistencies.

That’s why people simply don’t care enough anymore. Sure, people do bad things. But if one group of people, affiliated in any manner to one party is treated differently than the other group. You’re not going to get very many people to care in situation like these.

whembly (123289) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:25 am

#217

Whembly — the intent of the protesters was to stop the ceremonial certification of Biden as the winner of the Presidential election and “stop the steal”. What does that mean? Overthrow the election results and install Trump instead of Biden. You really dispute that?

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:54 am

@Appalled.

Yes, I dispute that. Those were protestors. The intent was to protest their displeasures.

Not all that much different when Democrats protested Trump on his inauguration chanting “illegitimated President”.

Only a tiny portion of those protestors turned into rioters.

whembly (36ab5f) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:57 am

nk

John Hinderacker disagrees. https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/01/final-thoughts-on-january-6.php

“Biden not only attacked Trump, he bragged about defeating him in the 2020 election, claiming that he won by 7 million votes.

* This is a key point. Biden’s statement is true if, and only if, you assume that all votes cast in the 2020 election were legal and proper. But they weren’t. Democrats went to great lengths, including collusive lawsuits in something like 15 states, locking Republican poll watchers out of the buildings where mail-in ballots were being authenticated in Philadelphia and Detroit, and much more, in order to facilitate voter fraud. One can only conclude that voter fraud is an important part of the Democrats’ electoral strategy”

the whole article is a good read

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:01 am

RIP Sidney Poitier (94).

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:04 am

The BLM folks were not looking to overturn the national government.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 7:51 am

No, they just want to subvert it to serve a larger goal. Before they took it down because of bad PR they were happy to assert:

“We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and ‘villages’ that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable,”

Their goals are broader than the national government.

We’re talking about changing how we’ve organized this country, so that we actually can achieve the justice that we are fighting for. I believe we all have work to do to keep dismantling the organizing principle of this society, which creates inequities for everyone, even white people. – Alicia Garza

and they’ve got a a variety of things they want to implement.

and BLM/antifa is using violence to achieve political goals:

Of the 633 incidents coded as riots, 88 percent are recorded as involving Black Lives Matter activists. Data for 51 incidents lack information about the perpetrators’ identities. BLM activists were involved in 95 percent of the riots for which there is information about the perpetrators’ affiliation.

This is also why Jan/6 is so valuable to the left. A long history of riots and violence but forget about that and let’s talk about those awful right-wingers

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:04 am

So long, Mr. Tibbs.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:04 am

That’s why people simply don’t care enough anymore. Sure, people do bad things. But if one group of people, affiliated in any manner to one party is treated differently than the other group. You’re not going to get very many people to care in situation like these.

whembly (123289) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:25 am

I’m not disagreeing with you generally and not on this point at all.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:07 am

You don’t need all votes to be “legal and proper”. Only 50% plus one.

Anyway … that’s what you get when you run your country by an anachronistic method invented 2,500 years ago by a handful of philosophers and boy lovers in some out of the way corner of the Mediterranean.

nk (1d9030) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:08 am

Whembly, I think using violence to accomplish political ends, as the Jan 6 rioters did, is terrorism. Their efforts to halt the certification succeeded. Their efforts to get Trump a 2nd term failed. But they did stop the certification. After that their ‘plan’ was a bit chaotic and appears to assume that other ‘forces’ were going to come and help them. But the lack of that doesn’t make their action ‘not terrorism’ any more then the failure of the Middle East to rise up in a new Caliphate after 9/11 makes their horrific (and much worse actions) not terrorism.

Hodges would fall under that IMO, even if he were also trying to commit suicide by cop. He wouldn’t be the first mentally unwell terrorist whose illness expressed itself through politics. The Antifa-protestors who created Chaz would fall under that, even if their idea was hopeless from the start. The Antifa-protestors who lit fireworks at the courthouse probably were also, but maybe they were *just* violent political extremists like the people who lit fires when Trump was inaugurated. It depends on what they were trying to accomplish with their violence. The rioters who looted stores and burned stuff for no reason were *just* looters and arsonists.

The people who marched for a cause but didn’t commit violence (BLM or in Support of Trump on Jan 6) weren’t terrorists. They were peaceful protestors. Jan 6 was a mostly peaceful protest marred by hundreds of violent trump supporters who assaulted the police and temporarily seized the US capital building. That seems like terrorism to me. But I understand your frustration that media sources who took great pains too explain that most of the people marching for BLM weren’t violent would take so litter effort to illustrate that point here. While I’m sure I can find a paragraph or 2 that acknowledges that it would be insulting to use that to pretend that the coverage between the two events has been even handed. But i don’t think that changes the reality of what they did.

I also think their actions could have had a much larger impact. I’m glad that it didn’t. Had Trump sent in federal agents to take back control of the capital and used his authority over them to insist that the certification wait until he could insure the safety of congress it may have bought him the delay he was looking for if GOP representatives went along with it. My point is that while they failed, their actions had the potential to do much more harm in the way that (to pick another right wing event) a state capital session that was interrupted by anti-mask protestors (such as happened in MI, ID and OK) didn’t. I’m not picking another right wing protest to present all such violence as right wing, but to show that not all violent right wing protests are characterized this way.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:09 am

I just wish the government threw the book at the BLM rioters with the same vigor as the 1/6 rioters.

Ditto. I assume they didn’t have similar evidence. Mostly because the DOJ at the time was being lead by Bill Barr. Who was experienced, competent, and very motivated to do so.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:12 am

I just wish the government threw the book at the BLM rioters with the same vigor as the 1/6 rioters.

Outside of the assaults on federal buildings, most of the crimes were not federal, and consequently don’t receive national media coverage.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:16 am

EPJW, as I showed in my earlier comment, Hindraker has lied in his response, it started early when he claimed the ~~terrorists~~ Trump supporters who assaulted police to seize the capital, some of whom made threats of murder towards the VP, Speaker of the house, & other elected, and delayed the certification of the election were unarmed. He’s smart and informed. His statement wasn’t a mistake. He’s lying to his readers.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:19 am

And some weren’t BLM/Antifa:

Self-Described Member of “Boogaloo Bois” Pleads Guilty to Riot

According to court documents, Ivan Hunter, 24, admitted to traveling from San Antonio, Texas to Minneapolis with the intent to participate in a riot. Hunter is a self-described member of the Boogaloo Bois, a loosely connected group of individuals who espouse violent anti-government sentiments. The term “Boogaloo” itself references an impending second civil war in the United States and is associated with violent uprisings against the government.

On the night of May 28, 2020, Hunter was captured on video discharging 13 rounds from an AK-47 style semiautomatic rifle into the Minneapolis Police Department’s Third Precinct building. At the time of the shooting there were other individuals believed to be looters still inside the building. Law enforcement recovered from the scene discharged rifle casings consistent with an AK-47 style firearm.
…….

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:21 am

Outside of the assaults on federal buildings, most of the crimes were not federal, and consequently don’t receive national media coverage.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:16 am

There’s also a lot of cases where they are let off at the local level. And there’s a reason the riots received national media coverage but any resulting charges didn’t. The BLM riots and violence is an example of good violence and destruction in a noble cause.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:24 am

EPJW, there are lies in the part you quoted as well.

The Detroit Free Press reported that challengers from both sides were locked out because the limit on challengers had already been exceeded. Earlier in the day, 268 Democratic challengers, 227 Republican challengers and 75 nonpartisan challengers were on the floor. The Free Press reported roughly 400 challengers were “freely roaming the room.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/10/fact-check-videos-crowd-locked-out-detroit-center-lack-context/6195038002/

I suppose you might make the case that he was just being deceptive and dishonest instead of actually lying.

Either way you can’t trust what the man writes.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:26 am

time123

Hinderacker doesn’t lie, IMO.

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:32 am

I’m seeing more of the “Not a Democracy anymore!” stuff, and the answer always seems to be “Let’s become a one-party state!”

If we really want to restart democracy in this country, a starting point would be to blow up both major parties, and blowing up the two-party system would be even better. The Us vs Them system is guaranteed to lead directly to polarization and distrust. There are better ways and the changes needed are not that great.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:32 am

I’ve provided links that show 2 of his statements were false/misleading
-that none of the Violent Trump Supporters who assuaged the police were armed. (Flat lie)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/capitol-riot-molotov-cocktail-trump-b1957164.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-weapons-deadly-dangerous/

That observers were bared from observing the counting in Detroit. You might be able to wordsmith this into just a misleading statement. But that’s not the same thing as honest or accurate. Link in the previous comment.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:35 am

Outside of the assaults on federal buildings, most of the crimes were not federal, and consequently don’t receive national media coverage.

An organized mob depriving people of their civil rights IS committing a federal crime. Just ask the Klan.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:36 am

Kevin just so long as we’re clearing trying to figure out what type of horrible a-holes the Antifa protestors that attacked the court house were and not *if* they’re horrible a-holes.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:39 am

Those responsible for the Minneapolis Third Precinct firebombing have all been convicted and sentenced to prison and impossible to collect restitution:

Staples Man (Bryce Michael Williams) Sentenced To Prison, $12 Million In Restitution For Minneapolis Police Third Precinct Arson

St. Paul Man (Davon De-Andre Turner) Sentenced To Prison, $12 Million In Restitution For Minneapolis Police Third Precinct Arson

St. Paul Man (Branden Michael Wolfe) Sentenced To Prison, $12 Million In Restitution For Minneapolis Police Third Precinct Arson

Brainerd Man (Dylan Shakespeare Robinson) Sentenced To Prison, $12 Million In Restitution For Minneapolis Police Third Precinct Arson

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:44 am

An organized mob depriving people of their civil rights IS committing a federal crime. Just ask the Klan.

Most of the Anti-Klan Act has been declared unconstitutional or narrowed by court decisions. If you are referring to 42 USC § 1983, that applies only to government officials who, acting under the authority of state law, deprive a person of their constitutional rights, which doesn’t apply to riots.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:52 am

Outside of the assaults on federal buildings, most of the crimes were not federal, and consequently don’t receive national media coverage.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 9:16 am

“consequently”, lol

as if that’s the reason why they don’t receive national media coverage

you’re funny, Rip

JF (e1156d) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:00 am

Calling them “terrorists” waters down the meaning of that word and Cruz was caught up in the rhetoric of that day.

Domestic terrorism under 18 USC 2331 is defined as follows, and it looks like a fit to me:

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States;

It seems to me Cruz called it correctly but didn’t have the courage of his convictions, or courage in general. It was a mewling embarrassing performance for him on Tucker.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:03 am

@240 that definition applies to antifa and blm as well

but there’s always pushback by the same folks who routinely call jan6 domestic terrorism

make up your mind

JF (e1156d) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:08 am

Time123

those are not true. Please stop using liberal propaganda publications as sources, thanks.

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:13 am

Time123

those are not true. Please stop using liberal propaganda publications as sources, thanks.

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:13 am

Per the Independent article, so Lonnie Coffman did not plead guilty to federal weapons charges including possession of destructive devices and carrying a pistol without a license? That is untrue?

Or may be you will believe your own eyes.

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:32 am

@241 Who here is doing that?
@242 I see. Thank you for the response. I don’t think we’re going to find a common ground here.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:41 am

Rip, good link. I hadn’t seen that. It further demonstrates that the people who assaulted the capital were armed. I doubt it will impact this conversation.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:42 am

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:32 am

I’m curious why you’re linking Coffman and that article. Coffman isn’t mentioned there and he’s not charged with and there’s no evidence linking him to violence at the capitol building.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:45 am

If there were direct connections between BLM violence and Biden….or any other leading DEM Presidential candidate….and BLM was threatening the legitimacy of elections then fine, it would be fair and relevant. But as it sits, it just seems like any criticism of Trump….ANY….has been over personalized to the point that makes good-faith discussion difficult. Everything doesn’t have to be a what-about…

AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2022 @ 8:18 am

The current Vice President was bailing them out of jail to continue to commit acts of violence. One of those she bailed out murdered another.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:47 am

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:47 am

There’s no direct connection between the Jan/6 violence and Trump. You missed the important part. It’s only a fair comparison if BLM/antifa were

threatening the legitimacy of elections

And this might fail the literal test.

Vice President was bailing them out of jail

She was using her position and political infrastructure to help coordinate and encourage others to raise bail.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:01 am

I’m curious why you’re linking Coffman and that article. Coffman isn’t mentioned there and he’s not charged with and there’s no evidence linking him to violence at the capitol building.

Time posted two links, one to the Independent article on Coffman (who pleaded guilty to federal weapons charges including possession of destructive devices and carrying a pistol without a license, after having been found with five firearms and 11 Molotov cocktails in his truck), and to the CBS News article on the weapons brought by the insurrectionists (without the visual evidence here). EPWJ complained about both as essentially being “fake news.”

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:02 am

@247, please see
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/02/graham-twists-facts-on-harris-support-for-protesters/
Again, no fan of Harris….no fan of BLM…but spinning what she did to create the impression that she is encouraging violence or recklessly allowing it seems inaccurate and unfair

AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:03 am

frosty,

to muddy the waters of course. That’s why it was jumped on to show support by Time as well.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:04 am

Right AJ,

keep spinning. The clothes will be dry soon.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:05 am

@238

Then all those Klansmen convicted of killing people in federal court have been freed?

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:05 am

Please stop using liberal propaganda publications as sources, thanks.

You will find the list of approved sources at Gateway Pundit and Infowars.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:08 am

https://nypost.com/2021/09/08/bail-fund-backed-by-kamala-harris-freed-man-charged-with-murder/

A bail fund promoted by Vice President Kamala Harris helped lead to the release of an alleged Minneapolis domestic abuser — who has been charged with murder in a road-rage slaying.

George Howard, 48, was charged with two counts of second-degree murder for allegedly shooting Luis Damian Martinez Ortiz, 38, during a road-rage incident on Interstate 94 in Minneapolis on Aug. 29, KSTP reported.

Surveillance video reportedly showed Ortiz getting out of his blue BMW and approaching Howard’s white Volvo before Howard shot the other man and fled. Ortiz died from a gunshot wound to the chest, officials said.

What’s a little murder in the name of social justice.

Now try and imagine how much play this would get to this day if it was someone Trump gave aid to who did the same.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:08 am

“Domestic terrorism under 18 USC 2331 is defined as follows, and it looks like a fit to me”

I’m also no fan of the term “domestic terrorism”…but I think the definition using the word “intention” implies some level of planning and organization that’s just not very evident…outside of forced entry and the outside rhetoric of lynching Pence, Pelosi, et al. They certainly wanted to confront representatives….and they did have zip ties and other weapons that suggest that it was more than just an impulsive storming of the college football field-like event….and I would acknowledge that the absence of success does not absolve the rioters of risk (hello Richard Reid)….but I reserve terrorism for something that would have a more obvious final goal and a reasoned path to get there. I’m fine with rioters….

AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:15 am

What’s a little murder in the name of social justice.

For some it’s just part of the process. Eggs and omelet and whatnot.

Now try and imagine how much play this would get to this day if it was someone Trump gave aid to who did the same.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:08 am

We don’t need to try. We can look through the archives here and see threads full of debate around the Sicknick death and claims that Trump was guilty of murder and directly responsible for his death.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:15 am

whembly:

Your position, then, was that folks in the Capitol were not trying to “Stop the Steal”. They were just “expressing their displeasure.” To say that they were trying to change the results of the election is divisive hyperbole.

Is this a fair statement of where you are? If not, what is?

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:16 am

AJ,

if it’s so open and shut you won’t have any problem showing me where people are actually charged under the statute you’ve cited as it’s related to Jan 6th.

I’ll wait.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:20 am

My apologies AJ.

You were just quoting Paul without a quote break. I see in reading further you disagree.

Paul, since you’re the one saying it’s obvious, please show where it’s been charged. Thanks.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:22 am

True frosty. And I remember what they said about those who disputed the narrative at the time.

NJRob (eb56c3) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:23 am

@258

whembly:

Your position, then, was that folks in the Capitol were not trying to “Stop the Steal”. They were just “expressing their displeasure.” To say that they were trying to change the results of the election is divisive hyperbole.

Is this a fair statement of where you are? If not, what is?

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:16 am

Pretty fair.

They obviously chanted “Stop the Steal”. But that was a political chant, not a warcry to stampede the Capitol.

whembly (123289) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:32 am

@238

Then all those Klansmen convicted of killing people in federal court have been freed?

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:05 am

Not knowing what cases you are referring to, I cannot answer. For example, however, when the DOJ reopened the investigation into the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, it was under 18 U.S.C. § 844, which allows for the death penalty when death resulted from an explosive transported in interstate commerce (which ultimately couldn’t be proved), and 18 U.S.C. § 3281, which allows an indictment for any offense punishable by death without a statute of limitation. It was ultimately the State of Alabama, not the federal government, that convicted the killers.

Ernest Henry Avants, a Mississippi Klansman, was convicted (in 2003) under a statute that prohibits murder on federal property for the 1966 murder of of Ben Chester White, an elderly farm worker.

James Ford Seale was convicted (in 2007) for the 1964 murders of 19-year-olds Charles Moore and Henry Dee in Franklin County, Mississippi under the under the federal kidnaping statute, 18 U.S.C. § 1201.

Ku Klux Klan member Edgar Ray Killen was convicted (in 2005) of state manslaughter charges for the killings of he murder of three civil rights workers in Philadelphia, Mississippi.

James Bonard Fowler plead guilty to state charges of manslaughter (in 2010) for killing Jimmie Lee Jackson following a civil rights protest in Marion, Alabama in 1965.

Source

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:49 am

NJRob and Frosty, The point of the link to the Coffman case was to illustrate that participants in Jan 6 were armed (heavily in the case of Coffman) and that claims otherwise are incorrect. This wasn’t just a rally that turned violent. Some of the people who attended brought weapons, in his case this included Molotov cocktails. I provided another link to show it wasn’t isolated. RIP provided a 3rd link with pictures of guns in the possession of (but thankfully not being used by) people violently attacking the police.

You can’t refute that the violent trump supporters who assaulted the police the US capital were armed. So you pick nits and try to change the subject.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:54 am

whembly:

IMHO, you come very close to saying that rioters don’t really own or reflect on their own rhetoric and it’s divisive to think they do. You have good company — but maybe not the company you want. Because this reminds me of all the blue checkmarks who all assured us that “Defund the Police” didn’t really mean “Defund the Police” and it was racist to say so.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:59 am

without the visual evidence here

Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:02 am

The interesting thing about that link is:

Reffitt is one of three people charged with carrying a gun onto Capitol grounds; no one is charged so far with having a gun inside the building.

So, these guns that were used for the armed insurrection. No one is actually charged with using a gun to commit another crime. All of the charges so far are possession. According to your link no one inside the building has been charged with even that.

Well, maybe focusing on guns is a mistake let’s try knives and axes

At least a dozen defendants are charged with carrying a knife or an axe. No one is charged with using those weapons against police,

So, we’re still at possession.

At least 17 defendants are charged with carrying or deploying pepper spray, bear spray, or some other chemical.

Hmmm, this isn’t the intimidating weapons normally associated with armed insurrections. But I don’t want to minimize this. People doing this should be charged as appropriate.

At least 13 people are charged with carrying or using police batons or large riot shields that they took from officers or found on the ground.

Now this is interesting. I don’t want to minimize this either. People doing this should be charged as appropriate. But this seems more in line with a riot and chaotic violence than a planned overthrow of the US government.

I could continue but all of the other weapons start to follow this pattern.

I can take all of that seriously and at the same time point out that some people are trying to conflate all of the weapons charges with unrelated gun charges.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:00 pm

Forsty @266, so you agree that the people who assaulted the US Capital were armed? Thus the claims made to the contrary are untrue?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:05 pm

; no one is charged so far with having a gun inside the building.

That no one carried a gun into the building was not an accident, as Stalin used to say, and indicates substantial planning, including planning for the legal consequences, went into this.

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:07 pm

Kevin M,

I used the testimony of the FBI and th Attorney General under oath as sources (as did John Hinderacker a highly respected lawyer, blogger and citizen) Gateway Pundit is a looney bird

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:13 pm

AJ @256, What was the final goal of McVigh or the 9/11 Hijackers? As near as I can tell their plans were, at best, very optimistic.

The Plan of the rioters, based on their pre-arrest rhetoric, was to stop the certification and then Trump was send in forces to support them. Depending on how insane the specific participants were this could include some Q-Anon nonsense.

They had a bad plan, but it was more then just a violent. expression of rage at an outcome they disliked.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:13 pm

EPWJ, Neither you nor Hindraker provided sources for your claims.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:14 pm

Sammy, no one /used/ a gun inside the building. As i said previously we allowed the perpetrators to escape and then arrested them later. Thus we don’t have evidence about what what they took with them, other then what’s available in photographs. Maybe everyone in the photo’s RIP linked stashed their guns outside. Maybe they didn’t. For legal purposes that’s critical. But from the standpoint of understanding what happened we know the crowd was armed and that they were able to take the capital without use of firearms.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:22 pm

in his case this included Molotov cocktails.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:54 am

Coffman didn’t bring Molotov cocktails to the rally as you say. This is literally false.

The strange thing is that the truth would work. He had two guns on him when he returned to his truck that night and there are photos of him at the protest. It’s fair to conclude that he had those guns at the protest. We can debate whether that counts as “heavily” armed. But there’s no indication he was violent, damaged property, and he’s not charged with trespassing.

So, why do you need to make it more than it is?

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:27 pm

“What’s a little murder in the name of social justice.”

If he was a danger to the community, he should have been held without bail.

Davethulhu (17e89a) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:29 pm

Forsty @266, so you agree that the people who assaulted the US Capital were armed? Thus the claims made to the contrary are untrue?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:05 pm

Which claims?

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:31 pm

@265

whembly:

IMHO, you come very close to saying that rioters don’t really own or reflect on their own rhetoric and it’s divisive to think they do. You have good company — but maybe not the company you want. Because this reminds me of all the blue checkmarks who all assured us that “Defund the Police” didn’t really mean “Defund the Police” and it was racist to say so.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 11:59 am

I disagree.

This is why discussion like these need to be nuanced, because multiple things can be true at the same time.

“Defund the Police” didn’t literally mean, ‘shut down the police’. They wanted police reform, which most, imo, were bad ideas.

“Stop the Steal” wasn’t a clarion call to ‘storm the beaches’ and start hanging Congressmen/women on the gallows – it was short hand that they thought the election was stolen, which again, they were sorely mistaken.

Rhetoric is one thing.

Deeds of actions is another.

I think how much the former influences the latter is going to be the crux of how you’re going to view these sordid events and whom you apply blame.

Using the actions of a small minority of the group to condemn an entire group in this manner is down-right despicable.

Back to the BLM riots. I’ll be the first to say that most of the BLM protestors were legally protesting, and I support their efforts to make their voices heard, no matter how much I disagree with many of the positions. But, I don’t lay the sole blame at the foot of the BLM protestors or leadership who just want their voices heard. The folks rioting during the BLM protest have agency to their very own actions, and should be prosecuted, ala the Jan 6th defendants.

Likewise, the “Stop the Steal” protestors from Jan 6th were largely peaceful, but for a small minority who participated in that riot. The DOJ unleashed the full might of this government to crack down and prosecute those rioters. And I have zero sympathy for them because it is THEY who should shoulder the blame as they have agency to their own actions.

This is something I had to learn a very hard lesson.

I lived not even 10 minutes away when Ferguson blew up. And I was livid when Michael Brown’s step father speaking to an unruly crowd proclaiming that ‘we’ll burn this mf’ing place down to the ground’. And you know what? Ferguson had the worst arson that night that was also too unsafe for firefighters to battle the blaze due to the number of gunshots in that area. I held him responsible for that night, but really he didn’t do anything that legally put him in jeopardy as he didn’t plan/coordinate/immenent attack there… just that his speech was a passionate, divisive rhetoric. Should he share blame in the eyes of the public? Sure. Does he share criminal liability of that night just from his divisive speech? No. The individuals actually performing the criminal deeds are the blame because they’re not puppets… they have agencies to their very own lives.

whembly (36ab5f) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:39 pm

Anybody here believe cancun ted cruz saying rioters were violent terrorists on jan.5 Or believe jan.6 cancun ted cruz on tucker carlson saying rioters were peaceful protesters. Carlson didn’t and called him a liar!

asset (91c6a4) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:40 pm

They were armed with things that have lower criminal penalties, and that wouldn’t get them easily arrested just for carrying it in DC. (that indicates they didn’t expect to have DP on their side)

The FBI still has no idea who planted the quite possibly intentionally defective pipe bombs at the headquarters of the DNC and RNC. One theory as to their purpose was to draw police away from the Capitol.

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:47 pm

Frosty, So do you agree with my point or not? Is it untrue to say that the people who assaulted the capital were unarmed?

Regarding my statement that he bought them to the rally; His Truck was found a few blocks from the capital on Jan 6 and he’d been living in it before the rally. I think that’s counts as ‘brought to the rally’. They were stored nearby and easily accessible if he had chosen to use them. Here’s what he chose to bring with him: “a loaded 9 mm handgun, a loaded rifle, several large-capacity ammunition-feeding devices loaded with more than 10 rounds of rifle ammunition, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, a crossbow with bolts, several machetes, camouflage smoke devices, a stun gun, and the 11 mason jars filled with flammable liquid, which authorities said was the equivalent to homemade napalm.”

Again, my point is that it’s untrue to say the people involved were unarmed.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:56 pm

Time123, the FBI disagrees with you no guns were found in or around the Capital, and as an unofficial fact, its all we would be hearing now.

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:09 pm

Citation?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:10 pm

whembly:

I think we are going to have to, politely, disagree on the motivations of the 1-6 rioters. Those would not have been in Washington except to prevent an election result they felt was corrupt. Those rioters were not satisfied with attending a rally and adding vocal support to Ted and Josh and Lindsay. They had to bash in to the building and do something about that election result they hated.

Preventing the ordinary actions of a Democracy via a riot is different than indulging in Hulk smash acts in the streets and gainst prperty because of a racial incident. Equating the two minimizes the attack on a Capitol in a way that is — well — divisive.

Appalled (1a17de) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:12 pm

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 12:56 pm

Are you asking me about someone else’s claims? I’m unclear on what you’re asking me to comment on. Are you thinking that after I make a comment about gun possession that I don’t know what gun possession means?

I think that’s counts as ‘brought to the rally’

And I think that doesn’t.

They were stored nearby and easily accessible if he had chosen to use them.

In other words he didn’t bring them with him.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:13 pm

I don’t think Trump’s ego is bruised because he lost the election, but his reputation among his followers would be damaged if he were to take back his claims of fraud.

Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:27 pm

Citation?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:10 pm

You’re thinking the FBI routinely releases official statements that nothing happened?

I think what you need is charges against people for possession and trespassing in the capitol building if you want to say people carried guns into the capitol building.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:37 pm

I’m asking the person that claimed they did to support that claim.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 1:44 pm

Then all those Klansmen convicted of killing people in federal court have been freed?

I’m speaking of those convicted in the 60s and 70s when state courts would not convict. Maybe they’re all dead now.

And what happened to Title I of the 1968 Civil Rights Act (18 U.S.C. § 245)? Admittedly it requires proof that the acts were hate crimes based on race and such and maybe that doesn’t apply, but the law is still in effect as far as I know. It does not seem to have a requirement about “color of authority.”

I understand that the Supreme Courts of the 1870 and 1880s gutted the Reconstruction-era acts with charmers like Cruikshank, but modern laws replaced some of that. And every time Cruikshank comes back to the court, it gets overruled.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:15 pm

I used the testimony of the FBI and th Attorney General under oath as sources (as did John Hinderacker a highly respected lawyer, blogger and citizen) Gateway Pundit is a looney bird

When people attack sources as being of improper politics, it tells me that hey only want to argue a point on their very narrow terms. So, I give back some snark, which is what the whining deserves.

Telling someone you will only discuss a topic based on sources that agree with you is really poor form. Sure, Gateway Pundit et al (or the Daily Worker) are beyond the pale, but they make effective snark.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:20 pm

Kevin M,

I said nothing of the sort, those were liberal propaganda pieces. Sorry if I wasn’t clear, using official sources under oath, I rebuked a criticism and defended an honorable man

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:26 pm

As far as the Capitol riot is concerned, it seems like there were a mix of people there.

Many (indeed most) were there to protest what they viewed as a stolen election and the 1st Amendment is on their side.

Some were there for a performance demonstration. A counting coup. They intended to enter the building and make a stink for the cameras and TV.

A few were there for violent action against Congressfolk, their staff and anyone who got in their way. I’m sure they had their reasons but I don’t care a whole lot, they were way over the line.

The last group deserves whatever they get, and I hope it’s a lot. The second group trespassed and should be liable of any property crimes, or any other acts they committed in the heat of the moment, but it wasn’t planned and that should be in their favor.

The first group, which has been harassed, doxxed, fired, threatend and sometimes jailed really doesn’t deserve it any more than any demonstrator does.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:29 pm

Hindraker is a liar.

If you bothered to sources you see the pointed to court documents and official statements you could examine.. RIPs link showed pictures of armed people assaulting the police.

Also, you’ve claimed official sources you haven’t provided them I doubt they exist.

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:31 pm

I said nothing of the sort, those were liberal propaganda pieces.

And you declared them unusable in debating with you. Time correctly responded that he was uninterested in your debate rules.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:31 pm

Kevin, Is the first group people who came the rally but didn’t go to the capital?

Time123 (9f42ee) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:33 pm

“What was the final goal of McVigh or the 9/11 Hijackers?”

Bring down buildings…in one case to inspire fear and object to US presence in the Middle East and and in the other, for revenge for Waco and Ruby Ridge…and government intrusion.

Yes, the rioters wanted to disrupt the count, but in the end, we really have no sense of how far they were willing to go. We know how far McVeigh and the 9/11ers were willing to go. Most likely it might have gone to screaming and posing….but it would have turned into a massacre before anything much happened. the secret service and protectors with guns had the big edge. Yes, they had numbers…yes they brutalized some cops to get in….I’m just not convinced that I would call it terrorism — a word I would reserve for more definitive physical threats.

AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2022 @ 2:53 pm

@240 that definition applies to antifa and blm as well

I never said it didn’t, JF. One standard.
Antifa can especially fit under domestic terrorism but many of them have the goal of overthrowing the US government.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/7/2022 @ 3:17 pm

Paul, since you’re the one saying it’s obvious, please show where it’s been charged. Thanks.

There is no charge for domestic terrorism, Rob, and you should know that.
In the sentencing phase, prosecutors have the option of claiming that the convicted perpetrators were involved in domestic terrorism, which can add a lot of years to their prison sentences. Whether they do that for any of the convicted rioters, we’ll see, maybe for those Proud Boys and other groups who were planning violence.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/7/2022 @ 3:35 pm

224 – quite humorous, nk.

mg (8cbc69) — 1/7/2022 @ 3:35 pm

I made it up a while ago, when the wokes started calling the Electoral College anachronistic, mg.

nk (1d9030) — 1/7/2022 @ 3:42 pm

I am totally using that when I encounter people who say the Constitution is obselete, nk. Except the buggering part.

norcal (d4ed1d) — 1/7/2022 @ 4:30 pm

Kevin, Is the first group people who came the rally but didn’t go to the capital?

They went to the Capitol for a demonstration and stayed outside.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 4:58 pm

“What was the final goal of McVeigh or the 9/11 Hijackers?”

Their final goals were quite clear. I guess it’s possible that some of the hijackers didn’t know about the “flying into buildings” part.

In the Capitol case, quite a few people went to the Capitol for what they thought was a demonstration, as others have done. When parts of the crowd surged hp the steps and inside, they never followed and may have left in some haste, or just stood there not understanding what was going on. It’s a big place.

I think that the folks who tried to get past the police and/or surged inside are the people to worry about. Not the useful idiots they brought along.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:03 pm

In the sentencing phase, prosecutors have the option of claiming that the convicted perpetrators were involved in domestic terrorism, which can add a lot of years to their prison sentences.

Can they really? I thought that the SC ruled a few years back that matters of fact needed to be decided by the jury.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:06 pm

Quite right, norcal. Not everybody is familiar with Frank Miller. And it’s better to stick to the main point, anyway, but that’s not what I was doing this time.

nk (1d9030) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:06 pm

Yes, the rioters wanted to disrupt the count, but in the end, we really have no sense of how far they were willing to go.

Unlike the others there was not a simple common motive for being there.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2022 @ 5:07 pm

Can they really? I thought that the SC ruled a few years back that matters of fact needed to be decided by the jury.

I was going by this, Kevin. Something about “sentencing enhancement”.

Paul Montagu (5de684) — 1/7/2022 @ 10:08 pm

@305. This

“It’s very arbitrary in how and when the government wants to apply this enhancement,” said Michael German, a former FBI agent and a fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University.

gives me the warm and fuzzies about our criminal justice system.

frosty (f27e97) — 1/8/2022 @ 5:21 am

The Politico article is a little confused. And confusing. Terrorism enhancements have to be charged in the indictment, and if the defendant pleads not guilty they must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

From that article, about 45 defendants have been charged with terrorism enhancements. Apparently, the prosecution is using them for plea deal leverage. At the same time, defense attorneys are being careful not to enter a blind plea to them.

So it goes something like this: “Plead guilty to a 53-month max charge and the prosecution will drop the other five, or go to trial on three 53-month max and three 20-year max charges.”

There is one exception allowed by the 5-4. When the enhancement is a prior conviction, where the defendant had pled or been found guilty. No need to charge him or retry him for the judge to take it into account in imposing sentence, and the prosecution does not have much say in it, either, it’s a court function.

nk (1d9030) — 1/8/2022 @ 6:18 am

After hearing Sotomayor’s questions during the mandate oral arguments does anyone think she’d stop a federal rule implementing a CCP style one child policy? If so on what grounds?

frosty (f27e97) — 1/8/2022 @ 6:20 am

https://www.bing.com/search?q=fbi+says+no+insurrection&cvid=54795ffcd8b64339be699d61c90c1eb3&aqs=edge.0.0l4.17888j0j1&pglt=299&FORM=ANNTA1&PC=HCTS

100’s of news agencies reported no insurrection by FBI

EPWJ (0fbe92) — 1/8/2022 @ 8:16 am

1/6/2022

January 6, 2021: An Attempt to Steal an Election

309 Responses to “January 6, 2021: An Attempt to Steal an Election”

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