Patterico's Pontifications

12/15/2021

House Votes to Hold Mark Meadows in Contempt

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



On a party-line vote, with two exceptions: the two Republicans on the January 6 Committee.

But sure: tell me about how the Republican party is not in thrall to Donald Trump.

122 Responses to “House Votes to Hold Mark Meadows in Contempt”

  1. The GOP as a group is fine with stealing elections and sees no reason to hold people involved with such schemes accountable.

    Time123 (00b120)

  2. I can’t tell you that. Can you tell me that the Democrats are not in thrall to the far Left?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. It’s an imperfect world, and context is everything. I don’t see any third choices.

    If these brave freedom fighters were actually brave freedom fighters they would be doing more than just posturing. Where is the alternative party?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  4. The Democratic Party is also fine with stealing elections, and is rather open about it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. @3 and this is how we’re establishing a precedent that stealing elections is ok; through the narrative that other side is just as bad/ worse. The narrative works best if you reduce everyone to a zero sum us/them game.

    Time123 (00b120)

  6. @4 that’s what Trump says. Unfortunately neither you nor he have produced any evidence to support that.

    Time123 (00b120)

  7. @4 that’s what Trump says. Unfortunately neither you nor he have produced any evidence to support that.

    The entire National Popular Vote Compact process is Exhibit One. I am not responsible for what Trump says.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. The narrative works best if you reduce everyone to a zero sum us/them game.

    It IS an zero sum us/them game. If that would change, things could be better. Pretending that the existing system offers options that it does not offer isn’t very convincing.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. My electoral choices are, D, R or abstain. The people who are wringing their hands should get up and start a new party if it’s so bad. Even if they think it’s impossible to succeed, nothing at all ever comes from hand-wringing.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. @8 we could object to and push back on illegal and unconstitutional acts and hold people who commit them accountable regardless of who it helps politically.

    The GOP as A party could reject such people instead of supporting and revering them. That would reduce the impact.

    Time123 (00b120)

  11. How is the National Vote Compact fundamentally different from Trump’s efforts to alter state election laws to favor Republicans? Both are attempts to send electoral votes to candidates that did not win that state.

    The Democrats pretend that there is such a thing as the national popular vote, neglecting several severe problems in that assumption, and intend to change local EC slates based on external vote counts of unknown provenance and varying rules.

    The GOP pretends that there is massive vote fraud by Democrat cabals in the electoral bureaucracy, and intends to change local EC slates in the event that such fraud can be shown (or argued about on Fox).

    A pox on both their houses.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. The GOP as A party could reject such people instead of supporting and revering them. That would reduce the impact.

    Yes, it could. But when the ONLY way to push back is to elect worse people (being a communist is bad too), the “victory” seems fleeting. If not Pyrrhic.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  13. Now, if those 14 Senators who voted cloture for the debt ceiling vote and the GOP Congresspeople who voted to uphold the Jan 6th vote count all just quit the GOP and formed another party … that would be the kind of leadership I’d respect.

    But I see no leadership whatsoever here. A few mavericks at best. And so it is still two choices. I am not happy with that reality, but it IS reality.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. But sure: tell me about how the Republican party is not in thrall to Donald Trump.

    maybe anti-trump heroes anthony gonzalez and peter meijer could tell you

    they voted against

    JF (e1156d)

  15. The NVC is a (IMO flawed) tool to change how member states allocate their electoral vote people to holding the election. I think there a re lot of problems with it and that its bad policy.

    But its not remotely similar to attempting to steal a fair election that you lost.

    Time123 (8bbefe)

  16. @14, you continue to remain befuddled by the difference between thinking someone is right about a specific thing, thinking they’re generally worthy of respect and consideration even when you disagree with them and supporting them in all things.

    Time123 (8bbefe)

  17. This is wonderful. Kill the Stupid Party.

    mg (8cbc69)

  18. So many of us have kissed this pos country away. Come and get it pigs, if you dare. lmao.

    mg (8cbc69)

  19. At least most people have given up not he lie that the election was stolen. The grifters are still trying to fleece the gullible and the conspiracy theorists but it seems like most people have accepted that was a lie.

    Time123 (8bbefe)

  20. I think having the cyperc-clown audit confirm the official vote was the final nail in that coffin.

    Time123 (8bbefe)

  21. @18, and others of us still love our country. Feel free to move somewhere that suites you better, if they’ll have you.

    Time123 (8bbefe)

  22. Politifact Lie of the Year.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  23. @22, that seems to be the most influential to me.

    Time123 (00b120)

  24. Following Trump leads to the loss of wealth (e. g. Trump University), health (e. g. magic potions for COVID) and, now, for some, loss of liberty (e. g. Meadows).

    “Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other, and scarce in that.” – Benjamin Franklin

    I hope Meadows will learn from this experience. And I hope the House Republicans (other than the two honorable ones) will. (I believe some of them know the truth, but voted wrong, anyway, out of cowardice — understandable, perhaps, considering the threats many have received, but hardly admirable.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  25. It was a good vote because what goes around comes around, and Congress needs to not continuing to defer power to the executive.

    Paul Montagu (e7d63b)

  26. Mark Meadows defense will be that the committee was not properly established. (plus that Donald Trump’s invoking of executive privilege is valid, plus that he was willing to take written questions (and pick and choose what to answer)

    By the way, executive privilege does not require a witness not to answer or testify – it only allows him to (although he can get the president in question angry at him) Meadows may be operating under a wrong theory of law.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  27. tell me about how the Republican party is not in thrall to Donald Trump.

    It is, which is unusual for a defeated candidate. But the RNC thinks that Trump can direct a lot of money to (or away) from them.

    Did anyone notice that in the text messages, Donald Trump Jr. told his father to give up his quest to remain in office (because that was how he could stop anything like this from happening again)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  28. What I noticed about Don Jr’s text was that it was sent to Meadows and not directly to his dad. Had he already tried to talk sense into Trump Sr. or had the president refused/ignored his son’s calls/messages because they were off point?

    Dana (b034b3)

  29. Not a valid commission. Trumped up propaganda to try and leverage for the upcoming midterms.

    Our political class is a joke.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  30. #19

    I’d like to see polling demonstrating that the “election was stolen” lie is no longer believed by a heavy majority of Republicans.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  31. My electoral choices are, D, R or abstain.

    The actual choices are D, R, or bear responsibility for the winner.

    BuDuh (a89c3e)

  32. you continue to remain befuddled

    I don’t feel befuddled. I admit to being unhappy with my choices. YOU seem to think that it matters more how people behave than what rules they will impose on you, and will opt for those who wish to do you harm so long as they are nice about it. My weighting is different.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. The actual choices are D, R, or bear responsibility for the winner.

    In no regard am I responsible for the result of two terrible choices foisted upon me. If anything in these elections are corrupt, it is the way we choose candidates. Primaries have failed to produce better than the smoke-filled room.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. Kevin, that was directed at JF. While I disagree with you there’s no disputing your knowledge or understanding of the facts.

    If “matters how people behave” means “we should follow our laws” then I admit it matters to me.

    Time123 (00b120)

  35. This world would have been far better if Donald Trump had run as a Democrat.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. NJROB, trumped up by reading the actual texts they sent and asking them to testify honestly?

    Time123 (00b120)

  37. Time, sorry. I missed the reference. And JF is not befuddled either. He’s wrong, but not uncertain.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  38. So much for your Perot complaining.

    BuDuh (d8fc32)

  39. Are the two representatives that JF referenced correct in this specific party line vote, Time?

    You have me bewildered.

    BuDuh (d8fc32)

  40. If “matters how people behave” means “we should follow our laws” then I admit it matters to me.

    I fundamentally disagree with the idea that the Democrat party is not trying the same damn things, so the difference you see is a chimera. Both parties are attempting to twist election laws to their advantage.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  41. Kevin, I’m sorry but The actions of Trump and the GOP after the 2020 election go far beyond “twisting laws to their advantage” and fully into illegal acts. I know you hate the Dems and have a hard time accepting the fact that the team you like is, in this specific instance, worse. But in this specific instance they’re worse.

    Time123 (00b120)

  42. Trump’s attempts during the Insurrection need to be separated from the legal actions of state governments. Please don’t assume that I conflate them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  43. 41. Grounds for impeachment maybe (all by themselves without the riot because it was persistent) but nothing illegal because lobbying and lying and implying political retribution aren’t crimes just by themselves.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  44. Do I hate the Dems? No. I rather do hate the direction the Democrat Party has take of late, such as the authoritarian bent of the Warmist Nazis.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. @42, we’re talking in a thread about the House GOP’s refusal to investigate 1/6 and compel testimony from participants.

    If this were a thread about GA’s election changes I’d think some of your comments were more accurate. Context matters.

    Time123 (27c015)

  46. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/15/2021 @ 11:37 am

    Both parties are attempting to twist election laws to their advantage.

    But in different ways. The Reoublicans go in for voter dsqualfication – and possibly, improper vote counting) although they also go in for registering people at second homes, while the Democrtas go in for adding voters and vote harvesting

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  47. During January 6 Hearing, Schiff Doctored Text Messages Between Mark Meadows And Rep. Jim Jordan

    Democrat Adam Schiff doctored text messages between Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan during Monday’s Jan. 6 hearings, an investigation by The Federalist shows.
    Sean Davis
    By Sean Davis
    DECEMBER 15, 2021
    Oops, he did it again. After leaking fake Donald Trump, Jr. emails, fabricating the transcript of a 2019 phone call between former President Donald Trump and Ukraine’s president, and lying about his interactions with the so-called whistleblower behind House Democrats’ first impeachment of Trump, Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., is now running the same con against a fellow lawmaker. During a hearing Monday night on the riot at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, Adam Schiff claimed to have proof that a member of Congress texted former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows to instruct former Vice President Mike Pence to overturn the 2020 presidential election results.

    Not only did Schiff misrepresent the substance of the text message and its source, he even doctored original text messages, which were obtained and reviewed by The Federalist in their entirety

    https://thefederalist.com/2021/12/15/during-january-6-hearing-schiff-doctored-text-messages-between-mark-meadows-and-rep-jim-jordan/

    Your guy. Your team.

    Sad.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  48. the Democrtas go in for adding voters and vote harvesting

    The Democrats have a national program to subvert the electoral college, which will have destabilizing results. This is actual improper vote counting, or at least reporting. They are doing OPENLY what Trump attempted to do Jan 6th — change the electoral votes to enable a win.

    Had the Popular Vote Compact been in effect in 2016, a number of states whose people had voted for Trump would have changed their vote to Hillary= and there would be Hell to pay.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  49. Breaking:

    BREAKING: January 6 Committee Admits It Doctored Text Message Between Meadows And Jordan
    The House January 6 committee admitted on Wednesday that it doctored a text message from Jim Jordan to Mark Meadows, as was first reported by The Federalist.
    DECEMBER 15, 2021 By Sean Davis
    Following reporting by The Federalist that Rep. Adam Schiff, D-Calif., and his staff doctored a text message between Rep. Jim Jordan and former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows, the House Jan. 6 committee admitted over email that it did, in fact, doctor the text message.

    As The Federalist reported on Wednesday morning, on Jan. 5, 2021, Jordan forwarded to Meadows a three-paragraph legal summary from attorney Joseph Schmitz, summarizing a four-page legal memorandum Schmitz had written regarding congressional certification of the 2020 presidential electoral vote count.

    In a statement provided to The Federalist via email, a Democrat spokesman for the Jan. 6 committee confessed that the committee doctored the text message.

    “The Select Committee on Monday created and provided Representative Schiff a graphic to use during the business meeting quoting from a text message from ‘a lawmaker’ to Mr. Meadows,” the spokesman wrote. “The graphic read, ‘On January 6, 2021, Vice President Mike Pence, as President of the Senate, should call out all electoral votes that he believes are unconstitutional as no electoral votes at all.’”

    “In the graphic, the period at the end of that sentence was added inadvertently,” the spokesman admitted. “The Select Committee is responsible for and regrets the error.”

    The Jan. 6 committee spokesman did not explain how one could “inadvertently” cut a sentence in half and eliminate the final two paragraphs of a detailed legal summary, nor did he explain why Schiff attributed the content of the text to Jordan, “a lawmaker,” rather than to Schmitz, the attorney who wrote it.

    https://thefederalist.com/2021/12/15/breaking-january-6-committee-admits-it-doctored-text-message-between-meadows-and-jordan/

    Stupid GOP voted against this???

    Good thing NeverTrump has Schiff’s back!

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  50. we’re talking in a thread about the House GOP’s refusal to investigate 1/6 and compel testimony from participants.

    I’ve said long ago that political hearings in Congress are not where you find the truth about criminal behavior. Drag the assh0les into court and charge them with crimes. We don’t allow Congress to try criminal acts because we know that truth is not their forte.

    So, the whole point of the Jan 6th commission is to find fault with Republicans, and it is not surprising the the Republicans are not on board.

    Bring charges against Trump and his stooges and tear them out of the world. Until that happens, there is NOTHING that will change in the GOP.

    Of course reforming or changing the GOP is not what Pelosi is after here.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  51. @49: That incoherent piece you linked to seems to argue that adding a period at the end of a sentence is “doctoring” it. Perhaps they mean that something was left out, but there are too many rabbit holes in that article to make me want to find out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. Proof you didn’t read the article.

    Blocked.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  53. “Stupid GOP voted against this???”

    No, they voted against a balanced committee run by non-politicians.

    Davethulhu (014d15)

  54. @53 they voted against a committee who’s republican selections would be vetoed by pelosi

    JF (e1156d)

  55. Proof you didn’t read the article.

    It’s jibberish.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. I read the Davis piece.
    The text left a sentence or part of a sentence out. Whoop de do.
    It’s read meat for his Trumpist readership.

    Paul Montagu (e7d63b)

  57. “@53 they voted against a committee who’s republican selections would be vetoed by pelosi”

    I’ve refuted this point every time you’ve brought it up.

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3233/text

    Davethulhu (014d15)

  58. In his statement, Schiff erased the final two paragraphs and the final clause of the first paragraph of the text message before inserting punctuation that was never there, all without disclosing what he was doing. The graphic displayed by Schiff, which was doctored to look like an exact screenshot, was similarly doctored, as it contained content that was never in the original message and eliminated content that was.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  59. Sure tell me the republican party isn’t inthralled with trump. The same delusional never trumpers who can’t face the fact that war mongering economic libertarian free trade conservatives have been run out of leadership in the republican party by former southern white trash democrat populists (nixon’s southern strategy). I have been saying this here since trump took over the republican party. You never trumpets are more delusional then trumpsters who say trump won the 2020 election. The republican party keeps telling you don’t let the door hit you on the way out! You are not wanted! For the umpteenth time what part of NO! don’t you understand?

    asset (e51380)

  60. “@57 go ahead and refute history”

    That’s the new committee, not the one that republicans blocked. She would not have been able to do that with the original committee.

    I know I have explained this before, multiple times. Do you have the memory of a goldfish? Are you being deliberately obtuse?

    Davethulhu (014d15)

  61. @44 Um… I hate the democrat party.

    For all the norm busting things Trump did, including his behavior (or lack thereof) during 1/6, Democrat are burning norms to the grounds.

    All I’m going to say, is I hope you get it good and hard during this Democrat administration. I hope this fuels you to be more engaged during the grassroots/primary phase of the next elections.

    whembly (3bda0a)

  62. To reiterate, I object to our esteemed host’s belief that the GOP is still in “thrall” of Trump.

    Right now, they’re united against Democrats.

    They’re not united FOR Trump.

    Can you not see that distinction?

    whembly (3bda0a)

  63. @61 She would not have been able to do that with the original committee.

    according to what?

    there is enough wiggle room in the qualification requirements for pelosi to do what she always does

    she relies on people having the memory of a goldfish

    JF (e1156d)

  64. @63 the definition of delusional. This is what I am talking about. United against democrats is not the only thing they are united against.

    asset (e51380)

  65. “according to what?”

    According to the document I linked.

    “there is enough wiggle room in the qualification requirements for pelosi to do what she always does”

    No there isn’t. She was given veto power in the new committee, the original one doesn’t have that language.

    Davethulhu (014d15)

  66. Whembly, I understand your hatred of the Dems. While I’m not really as passionate about, I find little about their policy preferences to like and a lot to object to.

    Here’s what i see a lot of people who support the GOP doing, I’m going to generalize so please bare with me if my characterization is imperfect. I hope my point comes through.

    We oppose the Dems and in many cases hate them.
    We dislike Trump, but think the Dems are worse, if not the complete worst.
    The Dems attacking Trump, while it may be justified we cannot allow them to score political points or give them the satisfaction of admitting they’re right.
    So we need to support Trump.
    That includes attacking anyone that doesn’t support Trump regardless of other considerations.

    I think this ends up with behavior can’t be distinguished from being in his thrall. They could dumped him and began the work of picking a new leader. But that’s not what the base wants.

    Time123 (739b38)

  67. To reiterate, I object to our esteemed host’s belief that the GOP is still in “thrall” of Trump.

    Right now, they’re united against Democrats.

    They’re not united FOR Trump.

    Not borne out by the numbers:

    Pew: Two-thirds of Republicans want Trump to retain major political role; 44% want him to run again in 2024

    538: A Majority Of Republican Voters Actively Want Trump To Run For President Again

    A Quinnipiac University poll conducted Oct. 15-18 found Trump has an 86 percent favorable rating and just a 10 percent unfavorable rating among Republican adults. And he already dominates early polls of the 2024 Republican primary. A Morning Consult/Politico survey from Oct. 8-11 found that 47 percent of Republican voters would vote for Trump; no other candidate was above 13 percent.
    ……..
    By a 67 percent to 29 percent margin, Republican registered voters told Morning Consult/Politico that Trump should run again, including 51 percent who said he should “definitely” run. A HarrisX/The Hill poll from Oct. 13-14 similarly found that Republican registered voters supported a third consecutive Trump candidacy 77 percent to 23 percent, including 52 percent who “strongly” supported it. And Quinnipiac found that 78 percent of Republicans would like to see Trump run again, and only 16 percent would not.

    Marquette University Law School:
    Trump Favorable/Unfavorable: 73/26
    Voting for Trump by Republican Party ID: Rep/Dem/Other 73/10/14
    Confident/Not Confident in 2020 Election results: Republican 31/68

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  68. Whembly, I wanted to add that I fully understand voting for Trump as the lesser evil. I don’t agree with it but I think it’s a defensible position. But that’s not the same thing as defending him and supporting him when there are other GOP choices and excusing his effort to steal an election.

    Time123 (739b38)

  69. 21- I’ll die for my family, property and dogs when you rinos attempt the coup-de-ville.
    This Amerika has karenitis and is treating it with shots of wokeism.

    mg (8cbc69)

  70. More Polls:

    Politico/Morning Consult: Do you believe Donald Trump should run for president in the 2024 election?

    Republican Party ID (no leaners): Definitely + Probably: 71%

    Trump favorability Republicans (no leaners) Favorable/Unfavorable: 83/16

    It’s beyond enthrallment and worship, it’s the building of an idol.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  71. #49 Just for the sake of argument, let’s assume that the Federalist post is correct — and ignore the fact that the falsehood was corrected promptly.

    Now then, how does that compare to the size of this lie — which Trump has yet to correct, in public anyway.

    To compare them I think you have to use orders of magnitude, rather than, for instance, a 1-10 scale.

    And I would guess, offhand, that the second is 9-10 orders of magnitude larger. At least. So we are way beyond beam-and-mote comparisons.

    Our gracious host is right to pay more attention to the second. And is setting a fine example for American citizens.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  72. @67 *I* don’t want Trump to run again personally.

    But, fundamentally, outside of the loud minority who’ll vote for Trump no matter what, GOP voters just want their party in power as a reaction to the current madness that is infesting the Democratic party.

    The last November race, where GOPers curbstomped Democrats, is very much indicative to that. Not because of “Trump” anything.

    However, if he does run, I’ll hold my nose again and vote for him again because, as we’re experiencing NOW, the alternative is worst.

    Rarely we get to see the alternative in such stark terms.

    Hence why I plead with folks to be engaged at the grassroots/primary phase of the election cycle. If you want to have more of a “say” as to who will be the final candidates, NOW is the time to make your wishes known. Waiting till after the convention is too late.

    If you really don’t want Trump to run, then do the work and actively back your preferred candidate. I realize that’s going to be hard to do RIGHT NOW, as just about everyone is waiting to see what Trump will do, but there are little things you can do. (write blogs on your preferred candidate, donate to their current campaign, etc.)

    whembly (3bda0a)

  73. @68 Rip, that’s still not an indication that the GOP is “in thrall” of Trump.

    He’s the former President that has massive name recognition. Of course those polls would reflect that.

    Take out Trump and put in Cruz or DeSantis or Haley (pick any), and I’d wager big money that they’ll get the same sort of strong support as Trump would.

    I think some of us are vastly underappreciating how much of an albatross the Democrats has become.

    whembly (3bda0a)

  74. No Rino, Republican will ever get my vote. These scum have abused me for the last time. As in Ted Lazzlo – Wankers

    mg (8cbc69)

  75. What I would like to see from both parties is less tribalism; I would like to see them compete to think of the best ways to make our wonderful, but troubled, nation better, rather than looking for ways to defeat each other — regardless of how it affects Americans.

    And were that to happen — a man can dream — our real enemies, like “Czar” Putin and “Emperor” Xi, would be unhappy.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  76. Whembly, I can’t see anything in your reply to object to, except that I can’t support Trump or candidates that support his effort to steal the presidency.

    Time123 (00b120)

  77. Jim Miller – can I get a toaster with less tribalism or an obama phone?

    mg (8cbc69)

  78. #76 Including this RINO, mg?

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  79. @70

    Whembly, I wanted to add that I fully understand voting for Trump as the lesser evil. I don’t agree with it but I think it’s a defensible position.

    It *is*defensible. IF we don’t like the Biden administration, just imagine it with Hillary Clinton at the helm. She’s waaaaay more competent than Biden will ever by.

    But that’s not the same thing as defending him and supporting him when there are other GOP choices and excusing his effort to steal an election.

    Time123 (739b38) — 12/15/2021 @ 2:22 pm

    1) I’m constantly harping on here and elsewhere for folks to be engaged at the grassroots/primary phase of the election cycle. Every little bit of effort adds to a potential momentum of your preferred candidate. Its important.

    2) I think I’m on record that Trump should’ve been impeached over 1/6 for nothing more than dereliction of duty. But, I think we also need to understand that in politics, you are reacting as a “prisoner of the moment” between each election cycle. I can’t believe I’m saying it, but I now understand why Democrats wanted to “MoveOn.org”. Sure, you’d want to see concrete accountability foisted on those who tried to unconstitutionally subvert the electoral process. But, at the end of the day, we need to accept that the accountability amounts to a political football, not insignificant itself, to remind politicians and the public that what transpired on 1/6 was simply unacceptable and hope that it becomes enough of a deterrence in the future.

    whembly (3bda0a)

  80. Or a chicken in a pot. I have the pot.

    mg (8cbc69)

  81. @68 Rip, that’s still not an indication that the GOP is “in thrall” of Trump.

    He’s the former President that has massive name recognition. Of course those polls would reflect that.

    Given that two-thirds of self-identified Republicans share his views of the 2020 election results, it has nothing to do with name recognition. Take Trump out, and his numbers will fracture among the ten little Indians. No way Darling Nikki et. al. get the same poll numbers as Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  82. Never again, Jim Miller. Never will any Republican get my vote.

    mg (8cbc69)

  83. Maybe Rip can answer that which Time avoided:

    Are Anthony Gonzalez and Peter Meijer in thrall with Trump?

    BuDuh (e021c3)

  84. @83

    @68 Rip, that’s still not an indication that the GOP is “in thrall” of Trump.

    He’s the former President that has massive name recognition. Of course those polls would reflect that.

    Given that two-thirds of self-identified Republicans share his views of the 2020 election results, it has nothing to do with name recognition.

    I beg to differ. A former President, popular with his base yes, will dominate a poll like that.

    But my point was to look at the last election cycle last November when Trump wasn’t even a factor. That’s a tsunami of a red wave that’s coming.

    Take Trump out, and his numbers will fracture among the ten little Indians.

    You mean, take out a former President who can run again, and the field will fracture. Like, the 2016 election? Well… duh.

    No way Darling Nikki et. al. get the same poll numbers as Trump.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 12/15/2021 @ 3:04 pm

    They will as the GOP candidate. Especially if Democrats pushes Michelle Obama or Kamala Harris.

    whembly (3bda0a)

  85. Sorry for my rambling guys.

    I’m little wound up listening to a historical podcast over the abject horror of the rise of Communism:
    https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/19-the-anti-humans/id978322714?i=1000523592748

    I’m not saying Democrats are pushing communism… but, I can see the evolution of the kind of governance they aspire to can bring us closer to the horrors seen by communist regimes.

    whembly (ce5f56)

  86. Maybe Rip can answer that which Time avoided:

    Are Anthony Gonzalez and Peter Meijer in thrall with Trump?

    I really don’t care about a couple of backbenchers, I am more interested in what the Republican true believers (MAGAWorld(TM)) think. And they are enthralled.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  87. whembly, I have a long drive tomorrow and will check that podcast out. I’m assuming your reference is also a recommendation and for that I thank you.

    Time123 (78eca7)

  88. Not sure that ‘avoided’ is the correct word for not answering a question you didn’t ask previously, but I’m happy to answer it thus; I would not say either is thrall of Trump.

    Time123 (78eca7)

  89. Whembly, the last election cycle is a data point in support of your argument that the GOP is not overly devoted to Trump. Stripping Cheney of her leadership position, primary challenges against people who speak out against the Jan 6 assault, right wing media coverage of people who speak out against Jan 6 and the lies that they push about that are evidence to the contrary. On balance I think it’s clear that the the Trump is still the leader of the GOP.

    Time123 (78eca7)

  90. @77 I would like that as well. But I think we’ll get the opposite.

    Time123 (78eca7)

  91. R.I.P. Phil Chen, studio & stage bass player from the 1970’s on. Listen to his work on the Jeff Beck album “Blow By Blow.” Genius!

    Icy (6abb50)

  92. whembly (ce5f56) — 12/15/2021 @ 3:24 pm

    I’m not saying Democrats are pushing communism… but, I can see the evolution of the kind of governance they aspire to can bring us closer to the horrors seen by communist regimes.

    The essence of communism is not the economics, which have in some cases, been abandoned. It’s the tyranny, and the lying, the fake elections and the secret police..

    It’s the Republicans who are in danger of becoming an undemocratoc party – but it’s still all completely traceable to Donald Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  93. 77. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 12/15/2021 @ 2:56 pm

    What I would like to see from both parties is less tribalism; I would like to see them compete to think of the best ways to make our wonderful, but troubled, nation better, rather than looking for ways to defeat each other — regardless of how it affects Americans.

    For that political campaign contribution limits must be greatly increased and Congressional candidates not recruited or significantly funded by national parties.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  94. time123 – “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.” So I choose, and I think you do, too, judging by your comments here, to take those first steps.

    And I will remind you that we have been closer to that destination in the not-so-recent past. In spite of our enemies’ continuing efforts to pit us against one another.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  95. BuDuh (4a7846) — 12/15/2021 @ 12:39 pm

    In his statement, Schiff erased the final two paragraphs and the final clause of the first paragraph of the text message before inserting punctuation that was never there, all without disclosing what he was doing. The graphic displayed by Schiff, which was doctored to look like an exact screenshot, was similarly doctored, as it contained content that was never in the original message and eliminated content that was.

    What Scgiff keft out was the essence of the legal argument that was made that there was a right to reject the Electoral votes. This was that the electros had been appointed in a different manner than the state legislatures had directed.

    What this argument doesn’t mention is that this (judge made changes to sate law about how to select electors) also happened in some states that Trump carried, like Texas – and this says nothing about ballot fraud, or that the result was different from what the people of that state intended, or the argument that as the legislature of the state may direct, includes a state courts determination of what the state law says or what power it gives a governor to do – that it means whatever creates state law.

    But Schiff cut out the very idea there was a plausible legal argument for rejecting a state’s electoral votes – although there wasn’t one that it was the vice president’s prerogative to make that determination. And it also seems to me you would want to be consistent too in rejecting votes.

    By the way, according to Mark Levin, it was the person who wrote the message to Jim Jordan, who said all that not Jim Jordan. Jim Jordan merely forwarded it to Mark Meadows. All those legal citations didn’t and could’t, have come from Jim Jordan.

    But this bears out what I said elsewhere today – they always want to blame elected officials.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  96. There he (Adam Schiff) goes again, you know. He did it with his false version of what Trump said in his telephone call to Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky.

    https://www.politifact.com/article/2019/sep/30/context-adam-schiffs-dramatized-version-trump-zele

    This PolitiFact article tries to make an excuse for what Adam Schiff did then – but really?

    I think Schiff hadn;t expected Trump to release the transcript. Trump, of course, goes overboard in his criticism of Schiff.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  97. Schiff lies, Schiff tells half-truths, Schiff misleads, Schiff alters evidence, Schiff fakes evidence, Schiff makes sh!t up, dog bites man, water is wet, the sun rises in the east, the Pope is Catholic, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead. All sure-shot bets.

    nk (1d9030)

  98. Look, this commission is a walking, talking GOP wedge issue. No matter how they split up, 211-2 or 107-106, the GOP cannot find anything but pain in the commission. They really do not want to spend weeks in Pelosi-land talking bout what is wrong with Republcians.

    They KNOW what is wrong with Republicans — Donald Trump (and his willing minions) is what is wrong. He has set the GOP against each other and there is NO position that can be taken within the party that has a happy outcome.

    Now, I personally think that biting the bullet and a mass resignation is in order, but they might well think that this would just leave the Congress open to more Trump minions (you should see some of the people who are running — they make MTG look reasonable).

    This commission isn’t what they need. They need those mean ol’ Democrats in the DoJ to arrest Trump for whatever (there must be something) and take him out of play.

    Then they can get onto something that is not all-about-Trump. BUt I expect the Democrats are having too much fun watching the GOP twist slowly in the wind.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  99. (e. g. magic potions for COVID)

    There was a magic potion for Covid, which cured Trump

    https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2020/10/09/mega-maga-the-largest-radio-rally-in-history

    Boldface mine: …Because I was in not great shape and we have a medicine that held me, that fixed me. It’s a great medicine, and had I not gotten it, Rush, it would have been in line for another year, probably, before they brought it out. Great company — two great companies, actually, make it — you know, make very similar things. But they both work equally well. And we’re gonna send it…

    We’re already sending it starting the process. Hundreds of thousands of vials are being sent to the hospitals all over the country. People are gonna get immediately better like I did. I mean, I feel better now than I did two weeks ago. It’s crazy. And I recovered immediately, almost immediately. I might not have recovered at all from COVID.

    To me, it’s the biggest story. But the press doesn’t even want to report that. They talk about the vaccines. And the vaccines are very important, Rush. But this is more important because we can go in the hospitals and clean out the hospitals literally with people that… The vaccines are very important. It’s a different stage.

    RUSH: Well, yeah, this is the antibodies that you speak of.

    THE PRESIDENT: This is the antibody. This is the antibody, and Regeneron. It’s the most unbelievable thing I’ve ever seen….

    (Trump promised to get it out there quickly – a promise he didn’t keep. He let himself be talked out of it,

    But it looks like it doesn’t work well against the Omicron variant. Although GlaxoSmithKline and Vir’s antibody cocktail Xevudy still work. (Not Eli Lilly)

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/eli-lilly-regeneron-antibody-therapies-lose-out-against-omicron-1.4755091

    https://www.pharmalive.com/lab-tests-eli-lilly-regeneron-antibody-therapies-lose-out-against-omicron/

    Which fortunately, (Omicron that is) is probably less bad than the flu. And there’s the Tamiflu like medication coming along (for some reason Pfizer felt it had to throw in an anti-HIV medication with side effects but production won;t be ramped up till late February. The Merck pill is far less effective and may not even be appproved but it should be with a cautionary note)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  100. This world would have been far better if Donald Trump had run as a Democrat.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/15/2021 @ 11:32 am

    The notion that Trump’s GOP registration since 2012 (the last year he switched) is an aberration from a lifetime of Dem affiliation is a popular myth. Since 1987, the first year for which his registration records are available online, Trump was a registered Democrat for 8 years, Independent/no registration for 3, and a registered Republican for 23 years.

    lurker (59504c)

  101. The only thing I am certain of, is that this will eventually end badly for Trump. It might take the GOP a decade to recover, but there is no recovery for Trump.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  102. The notion that Trump’s GOP registration since 2012

    That’s not the point. Effing over the Democrats would have been much better than what he chose to destroy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  103. But OK, I’ll ask: What is the best play for the GOP caucus? Which limbs do they cut off?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. It shouldn’t be Meadows, anyway. I’ve always liked him. He hitched his wagon to a scabious orange nag, but who hasn’t made a mistake some time in his life? For all we know, he only did it to get in line for Hope Hicks.

    nk (1d9030)

  105. >Schiff erased the final two paragraphs and the final clause of the first paragraph of the text message before inserting punctuation that was never there

    so he *excerpted* something to make it short enough to fit on a slide.

    journalists, historians, and anyone who discusses anything said by a third party have been doing that since Sumerian times.

    it’s one thing if the excerpting is done in ways that create misleading impressions — that’s not ok. *this* excerpting, on the other hand, did no such thing.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  106. > to remind politicians and the public that what transpired on 1/6 was simply unacceptable and hope that it becomes enough of a deterrence in the future.

    a Trump re-election in 2024 guarantees that what transpired on 1/6 will happen again. It may not have worked *in 2020* but it will have worked over all.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  107. Kevin M – you are more optimistic than I am. I think Trump is more likely to be President on January 21, 2025 than not — once the Republicans retake the House in 2023, the Jan 6 Congressional investigation stops, and once Trump is re-elected, the AG stops investigating and prosecuting and instead goes after people on spurious, trumped up charges of fraud in 2020.

    I’m not sure the country recovers in my lifetime.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  108. Kevin M – you are more optimistic than I am. I think Trump is more likely to be President on January 21, 2025 than not

    I seriously doubt it. Even if a lot of the GOP base likes him and would potentially vote for him, thinking about voting for him and actually doing it are two different things. His antics in 2016 were welcomed because the establishment threw its weight behind Jeb right away, and this was seen by those voters as a “controlled opposition” campaign similar to the Romney nomination. I’ve said this before, but it’s not a coincidence at ALL that Trump declared his candidacy the day after Jeb did.

    However, 2024 will not be 2016. Trump is not seen at this point by those voters as a party insurrectionist (heh) who’s giving the finger to the GOP’s discredited neocon paymasters and policy influencers. He’s seen as a party figurehead, but one who 1) is going to be 78 years old in 2024, and 2) won’t have the same culture war advantages Nixon had in 1968 that allowed him to come back from his defeat to Kennedy. The best he can hope for from a prestige standpoint is someone in the Wyoming GOP taking Cheney’s scalp in 2022 and seeing her switch to the party of her fellow millionaire neighbors in Teton County. If he tries to run and manages to get the nomination, he’ll get destroyed in the general and the margins in the swing states won’t be as close as they were in 2016.

    The GOP nominee with the best chance to win is going to be someone that can fundraise while talking the populist game, not scaring the suburban housewives and making Hispanics feel all right about pulling the lever for them–because the culture war isn’t dying down any time soon, and has a high probability of going nuclear after 2022.

    Factory Working Orphan (1cdbfb)

  109. Republicans have no choice but to screw the people. They are so so in debt to lobbyists and the foreign mobsters that stepping on voters is a daily routine. They and the people that vote should be pounding sand. This country is a Schiff hole. One can’t even go to Children’s hospital in Boston without weapons in the vehicle to ensure safe arrival of a 3 year old with seizures. The dopers have take over. Screw with my granddaughter one more time and someone is going to pay. And trying to get her 3 seizure medications is becoming extremely worrisome. Fluckamerika

    mg (8cbc69)

  110. once the Republicans retake the House in 2023, the Jan 6 Congressional investigation stops

    Then, dear God in heaven, let them finish it before the, whatever this is. So far as I can tell this is just counting coup, mostly behind closed doors. The fact that a commission is meeting, subpoenas are issued, and lawyers are fighting seems to be then end-all and be-all. A tedious parade of headlines; much sound and fury signifying nothing.

    In the end they will publish something that no one outside the beltway will care about. Much like the Mueller probe, in the end is will be a whimper.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  111. Trump will be lucky to live to 2025. He’s in bad shape, he listens to no one about his health (or anything else), and he has made countless enemies here and abroad, particularly in his own party.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  112. In 2022 on election night – Republicans will have won. But by morning they will have lost.

    mg (8cbc69)

  113. #116

    Are you the mg that notes

    Republicans have no choice but to screw the people. They are so so in debt to lobbyists and the foreign mobsters that stepping on voters is a daily routine. They and the people that vote should be pounding sand

    Why do you care if the vote gets stolen from them? Why would anyone bother to steal the vote from them? No matter who wins, the government always gets in.

    (By the way — I am genuinely sorry you are dealing with what you describe in #111. In so many ways, the system really stinks. People like Trump lying about what’s happening, though, doesn’t help. Instead, everyone focuses their attention on side issues

    Appalled (1a17de)

  114. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 12/15/2021 @ 11:32 am

    This world would have been far better if Donald Trump had run as a Democrat.

    He would have had to run on different issues. Do you have any ideas which ones? (it would have to be something that no other Democrat would endorse, but also not e willing to oppose_

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  115. Who was it that said about Washington DC (the Capital not the President), “Want a friend? Get a dog!”

    nk (1d9030)

  116. #119 – Truman.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  117. > Then, dear God in heaven, let them finish it before the, whatever this is.

    not going to happen. the Trumpist path forward has been discovered: refuse to cooperate, wait for a contempt trial *that won’t happen until next summer at the earliest*, and then run out the clock.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  118. > If he tries to run and manages to get the nomination, he’ll get destroyed in the general and the margins in the swing states won’t be as close as they were in 2016.

    This sets up the situation where his people allege “fraud” without evidence and are in positions of power in swing states to allocate electors in ways that are inconsistent with the election results, justified by the fictitious fraud allegations. Best case that sends it to the House, where Trump wins.

    aphrael (4c4719)


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