Patterico's Pontifications

12/13/2021

Rep. Cheney: Non-Privileged Texts Further Evidence of Trump’s Supreme Dereliction of Duty During The Capitol Riots

Filed under: General — Dana @ 6:48 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Damning:

The Democratic-led House select committee investigating the Capitol attack has voted to hold Mark Meadows in criminal contempt of Congress, sending to the full House a referral for the former Trump White House chief of staff to face a criminal charge.

The Monday night vote was months in the making. Meadows had initially cooperated with the panel and turned over thousands of emails and text messages, but he reversed course last week, saying a day before he was due to appear for a deposition that he would no longer be cooperating with the probe.

Ahead of the vote, the panel’s ranking Republican, Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming, read a litany of text messages she said Meadows received during the Jan. 6 siege, urging him to get then-President Donald Trump to tell his supporters to leave the Capitol.

We now know with certainty that the White House knew what was happening outside the Capitol on Jan. 6. It was so bad that even Donald Trump Jr. repeatedly begged Meadows to get his father to make a statement from the Oval Office to stop the violence and tell his supporters to go home. Despite his son, Republican leaders, and even Fox News personalities pleading with Meadows to get the president to act during the harrowing 187 minutes as the Capitol was attacked, Trump refused.

Here is Cheney making her statement:

Unfortunately, Trumpers will not be swayed in the least by the revealed text messages nor impacted by then-President Trump’s decision to not immediately address the mob from the Oval Office and send them home. Instead of looking at the texts with any objectivity, or grasping how Trump not only encouraged the mob to go to the Capitol and then refused to make an effort to stop them, they will attack Cheney because she continues to dishonor their hero. To them, she represents all the evils of the pre-Trump Republican Party. They see her as the enemy, despite her solid conservative voting record and unwavering protection of the Constitution. Think about that: Republicans today hate a true conservative who has the voting record to back up her claims all because she is willing to risk even losing her political career to hold accountable a corrupt president who betrayed his country. Once upon a time, she would have been the ideal Republican.

This sums up the absolutely damning views held by any number of Republican lawmakers about the events of Jan. 6:

A GOP lawmaker texted Meadows on Jan. 7. The lawmaker wrote: “Yesterday was a terrible day. We tried everything we could in our objection to the 6 states. I’m sorry nothing worked,” per Jan. 6 committee. They don’t say who it was

It’s nothing less than stunning and dangerous that this individual is a sitting member of Congress. Yet certainly they are not alone in their misguided disappointment and regret. Given that, it is far past time for those still sane members who have kept their heads down and mouths shut for fear of retribution from their Trump-loyal colleagues to speak up with unrelenting force and push back against this rot coming from within their own party. Sadly, and in yet one more example of how deep the rot goes, when you consider which lawmaker may have made the above comment, it’s far more than just one name that comes to mind.

–Dana

136 Responses to “Rep. Cheney: Non-Privileged Texts Further Evidence of Trump’s Supreme Dereliction of Duty During The Capitol Riots”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (5395f9)

  2. I write a comment in the open thread, and then Dana writes a post. I gotta work on my timing.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  3. That’s funny, Paul. I hadn’t seen your comment. Please copy/paste it here.

    Dana (5395f9)

  4. You got it.
    Laura Ingraham is a dirty dishonest sk@nk.
    On the afternoon of Insurrection Day, she was texting Meadows, saying…

    “Mark, the president needs to tell people in the Capitol to go home. This is hurting all of us. He is destroying his legacy.”

    On the evening of Insurrection Day, she was pretending that Trump’s MAGAs weren’t involved, that the rioters were crisis actors or false flaggers or something.

    While Ingraham that afternoon called the attack “disgraceful” and said that “the president needs to tell everyone to leave the building,” later that night, she suggested on-air that some of the rioters might have been left-wing agitators rather than Tump supporters. “I have never seen Trump rally attendees wearing helmets, black helmets, brown helmets, black backpacks — the uniforms you saw in some of these crowd shots,” she said.

    Kilmeade and Hannity also sent texts to Meadows in private but had divergent statements in public about the rioters (link). They knew who was rioting.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  5. Good catch, Paul. Of course they knew it was bad, but at the end of the day, loyalty to MAGA was what mattered most. Also, to what “legacy” was Ingraham referring?

    Dana (5395f9)

  6. Earlier today, there was reporting on a January 5th Meadows email, where he said that the National Guard would be available on January 6th to “protect pro Trump people”. We don’t yet know the full context but, on its face, it’s not kosher to politicize the military, to charge them with protecting a certain political class.
    Also, it’s more than passing odd that Meadows delivered 9,000 pages to the 1/6 Committee and had all kinds of juicy bits in his book, but only now he decided to stonewall? If I were a betting man, I’d say that Trump directed Meadows to clam it up.
    History is not going to treat Meadows well, IMO, but bottom line, this is still about Trump because he picked this spineless sycophant to do his bidding.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  7. There are more texts to Meadows on 1/6, helpfully compiled by The Hill:

    “Can he make a statement? Ask people to leave the Capitol,” texted Hannity.

    Meadows also received dozens of texts from GOP lawmakers, staffers and members of the press trapped inside the Capitol during the assault, Cheney said.

    “We are under siege here at the Capitol,” read one text. “They have breached the Capitol,” read another.

    A third person texted: “Mark, protesters are literally storming the Capitol. Breaking windows on doors, rushing in. Is Trump going to say something?”

    A fourth person told Meadows: “There’s an armed standoff at the House chamber door.”

    A fifth person inside the Capitol wrote: “We are all helpless.”

    Across the administration, Trump officials also pleaded for Meadows to convince Trump to intervene. Messages read: “Someone is going to get killed” and “POTUS needs to calm this sh-t down.”

    I’d like to know who sent these messages to Meadows (and it’ll come out eventually anyway). It was over three hours after the breach before Trump praised his MAGA rioters (“we love you, you’re very special”) and then exhorted them to stand down and go home.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  8. > but, on its face, it’s not kosher to politicize the military, to charge them with protecting a certain political class.

    but of course that’s what trump would want! why should his government spend any resources helping traitors who don’t support him?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  9. By use of the word “legacy” Laura Ingraham was assuming (and texting the White House) that Trump was shortly n longer going to be president.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  10. 6. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 12/13/2021 @ 7:49 pm

    If I were a betting man, I’d say that Trump directed Meadows to clam it up.

    That;s news? But rll now, Meadows didn’t listen to him. I think Meadows felt the committee was getting too intrusive, or felt he was becoming a target. On Jan 6, Meadows was probably thinking about how to handle Trump so that the transition is accepted and goes smoothly.

    One point that seems to have gotten to Trump a little was that the demonstrators were attacking the police – and wasn’t he pro police?

    But Trump was mostly interested in seeing how this played out – maybe it would help – and he didn’t want to alienate his supporters.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  11. Sammy, I acknowledged that I was speculating, and you should, too. The timing of Meadows’ clam-up is suspicious.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  12. The Committee Report supporting Meadows’ contempt citation.

    Rip Murdock (8dd5e1)

  13. i absolutely love reading this blog. Seriously.

    Honestly don’t know what I find more annoying: my maga friends who desperately want Trump to run again in 2024 (please no) or people like you that just won’t let Jan6th go and pretend that a minor riot was somehow the worst calamity to befall D.C. since 1814.

    I had rioters just a few miles away from my home in the Seattle area during the unrest of 2020. I remember liberal rioters occuping Senate office buildings with nary a peep.

    In the end I don’t give a crap what happened on Jan 6th. It’s thousands of miles away from my home.

    But I do get amusement and joy reading your articles anguishing over the events in D.C. I only hope it doesn’t continue to give ammunition to those wanting Trump back.

    yaddamaster (b27ef3)

  14. …people like you that just won’t let Jan6th go and pretend that a minor riot was somehow the worst calamity to befall D.C. since 1814…

    In the end I don’t give a crap what happened on Jan 6th…

    But I do get amusement and joy reading your articles anguishing over the events in D.C….

    yaddamaster (b27ef3) — 12/13/2021 @ 9:58 pm

    I wonder if you would have been just as amused if the more serious members of the mob had succeeded, and a few congressmen or senators were dead in the hallway? Or the Vice President?

    I’m a little worried that the way things are going, you may have the chance to get quite a few good belly-laughs in 2024 and 2025.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  15. How is it a “minor riot” when it disrupted a Constitutional proceeding and was the first non-peaceful transfer of power in American history?

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  16. She may get primaried out of the house, but I think her future is still pretty promising.

    Attorney General? Court Justice?
    Dare I dream… President?

    Glenn (a56320)

  17. Try him for treason, hang him on the Mall, then impeach hom again.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. @4. Laura Ingraham is a dirty dishonest sk@nk…

    And like The Donald, Ingraham is a ‘Reagan Creation.’ Seasoned w/a little Clarence Thomas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Ingraham

    She is a conservative; she is “you.” Still, anyone who can be baited by the entertaining antics of a Laura or a Sean, barking like circus seals at Hyde Park’s Speaker’s Corner, deserved the fish they’re fed. They’re just opinionators w/a POV no more valid- or invalid– than everybody elses.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  19. You people watch too much cable. Do yourself a favor – cut the cord.

    mg (8cbc69)

  20. This congress should recall the azzhole Holder. lmao.

    mg (8cbc69)

  21. You people watch too much cable. Do yourself a favor – cut the cord.

    mg (8cbc69) — 12/14/2021 @ 2:54 am

    Considering the source, this is the best argument I’ve heard for paying cable TV’s bloated bundle prices in at least three years.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  22. I’m adding this to the post because it’s so damning:

    A GOP lawmaker texted Meadows on Jan. 7. The lawmaker wrote: “Yesterday was a terrible day. We tried everything we could in our objection to the 6 states. I’m sorry nothing worked,” per Jan. 6 committee. They don’t say who it was

    It’s nothing less than stunning and dangerous that this individual is a sitting member of Congress. Yet certainly they are not alone in their misguided disappointment and regret. Given that, it is far past time for those still sane members who have kept their heads down and mouths shut for fear of retribution from their Trump-loyal colleagues to speak up with unrelenting force and push back against this rot coming from within their own party. Sadly, and in yet one more example of how deep the rot goes, when you consider which lawmaker may have made the above comment, it’s far more than just one name that comes to mind.

    Dana (5395f9)

  23. What I like, is I like to think of 145 years from now when Trump is remembered about as much as Rutherford B. Hayes is remembered today. And Rutherford B. Hayes did in fact manage to steal the election of 1876, the thing the Orange Horde could not do for Trump in 2020. Loser!

    nk (1d9030)

  24. it must be truly painful to discuss the current corrupt president

    JF (e1156d)

  25. And now they’re talking about Hillary getting ready to run again. If they can print up 81 million votes for Biden, I’m thinking 92 million for Hillary!

    ingot9455 (64b88b)

  26. #25

    Donations to the Clinton Foundation have plunged. It’s a fundraising announcement.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  27. Meadows was on Hannity’s show last night, sort of like when a defense lawyer tries to rehabilitate the witness.
    In the entire 8-minute segment, Hannity didn’t bring up Meadows’ text messages, not one single time.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  28. @27 start your own blog tv show

    JF (e1156d)

  29. Seven million votes difference. Just seven million little votes. Trump should have filed Chapter 13 bankruptcy and set up a reorganization plan to pay them in installments over four years. What? It worked for him before!

    nk (1d9030)

  30. And now they’re talking about Hillary getting ready to run again. If they can print up 81 million votes for Biden, I’m thinking 92 million for Hillary!

    ingot9455 (64b88b) — 12/14/2021 @ 6:34 am

    Your comment assumes a lie. Your choice to repeat a lie does not make it true. No good, and much harm, will ultimately come of this lie — the lie that you and others constantly speak. You should be ashamed of yourself. But I suspect, like your god-emperor, shame is a human quality you have long since shed.

    Demosthenes (2119b9)

  31. You’re making me laugh, nk.

    Paul @ 27, I guess we shouldn’t be surprised. I think, at first, the Fox personalities were indeed concerned and possibly even frightened by the *not* small riot happening at the Capitol. Unfortunately, those correct instincts were overridden by the knowledge of whom their loyalties rested. They quickly reversed course in an effort to shield Trump and certainly in an effort to reassure Fox viewers that they were still on the same team. No breaking ranks allowed.

    Dana (5395f9)

  32. start your own blog tv show

    Ah, a variation of the chickenhawk argument, which died of intellectual dishonesty and stupidity back in the aughts.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  33. “I have never seen Trump rally attendees wearing helmets, black helmets, brown helmets, black backpacks — the uniforms you saw in some of these crowd shots,” she said.

    Which doesn’t make the case that they weren’t Trump supporters. It makes the case that they didn’t just plan to attend a “rally” and it got out of hand.

    Radegunda (0159b9)

  34. @32 more like a variation of the usual argument heard around here

    i knew you wouldn’t get it

    JF (861bfc)

  35. more like a variation of the usual argument heard around here

    I’ll take that as you trying to save face for starting that brain damage.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  36. Any lawyer who knows the exceptions to the Hearsay Rule will tell you that the common wisdom “wait until more facts come out” is more often than not wrong. Contemporaneous utterances are closer to the truth of the matter asserted than later revisions, covering up, and backtracking.

    nk (1d9030)

  37. In what way are these texts “damning?” Trump had no legal authority to stop anything. That was up to the Capital Police and the US Park Service.

    Trump is not responsible for the violence as his speech to go an protest the congress is a first amendment protected activity. If there was violence it was the responsibility of the people being violent, not Trump’s.

    Imagine we demand that Pelosi stop the riots…and then they don’t stop…and we blame her for not making a statement…and we jail her for it….stupid.

    Miller Smith (a6775a)

  38. @37 if trump had incessantly pleaded for them to stop, and took a nightstick to them as well, it wouldn’t make one iota difference to the usual suspects here

    these are the same folks who bought the collusion nonsense, and have been tilting at windmills ever since

    JF (e1156d)

  39. It’s nothing less than stunning and dangerous that this individual is a sitting member of Congress.

    I am far more worried about the folks who continue to move the National Popular Vote Compact towards activation. They are overtly attempting to subvert the constitutional process, for political advantage, in a way that will throw the presidential election into chaos the moment it is invoked.

    The minor opportunities for mischief in the current system, that the Trumpies hope to exploit, pale in comparison to the types of conflics that the Electoral College avoids. That Texas suit against PA that was laughable this time would make a lot of sense if one state’s EV depended on votes in another state.

    Anyone who is concerned about the ineffectual (and mostly Trump-appeasing sham) attempt to overturn the electoral vote in 2020 should be horrified as the Compact ratchets itself forward. Those state legislators and governors who add their state to the list are far more dangerous as they get little pushback against their sedition.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  40. This isn’t to say that what Trump’s people did, or try to do in 2024 isn’t a concern, but that I think it will be ineffectual again as Trump is involved and everything he does is ineffectual.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  41. Trump had no legal authority to stop anything. That was up to the Capital Police and the US Park Service.

    False.
    Trump has direct control over the DC National Guard. If there’s evidence that he personally pulled that lever, I haven’t seen it.
    He brought tens of thousands to the Capitol on that pivotal day with the tease that it would be “wild”.
    He poured gasoline on the situation when his warm-up acts said “trial by combat” and “today is the day American patriots start taking down names and kicking ass”.
    He poured more gas on his audience with his twenty-fold use of “fight”, scarcely offset by his single use of “peacefully”. And this.

    “We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

    And this.

    All of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by emboldened radical-left Democrats, which is what they’re doing. And stolen by the fake news media. That’s what they’ve done and what they’re doing. We will never give up, we will never concede. It doesn’t happen. You don’t concede when there’s theft involved.

    Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore and that’s what this is all about. And to use a favorite term that all of you people really came up with: We will stop the steal. Today I will lay out just some of the evidence proving that we won this election and we won it by a landslide. This was not a close election.

    Before his post-1/6 spine-ectomy, Kevin McCarthy was right: “The president bears responsibility for Wednesday’s attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. These facts require immediate action by President Trump.”

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  42. It turns out that Trump’s Truth Social media site is trying to get people to donate to the GOP as they sign up for the new site.

    Last week, people began receiving texts inviting them to join Truth Social….

    Once you submit your name on the page included in the text, it sends you to the NRSC’s WinRed fundraising page to reserve your username.

    There’s a catch, though. In order to reserve a username, you have to make a donation to NRSC. If you try to submit without donating, a notice appears in the donation portion reading, “This field is required.”

    Truth Social’s site allows you to “join the waiting list” for no cost—but doesn’t allow you to reserve a username. Trump did not immediately respond to an inquiry sent via his website seeking to confirm whether he’d partnered with the NRSC to get people to sign up for Truth Social and donate to the committee.

    It’s not clear if this is just marketing or a donation will actually reserve your username, as the site doesn’t provide any confirmation and it’s not possible to sign in to the platform at present.

    Those who sign up for Truth Social on the NRSC’s page are deluged with as many as four texts per day asking for more money. The texts come from the NRSC’s phone number and include links to its fundraising site along with pleas to the tune of, “[W]e’ve reached out FOUR TIMES already! Take our Trump Patriot Poll here to help RETAKE TRUMP’S MAJORITY” and “Stop ignoring…! Tell us your Trump Social Media Username! Click HERE to correct the record.”

    https://www.dailydot.com/debug/trump-social-media-reserve-username-fee/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  43. In what way are these texts “damning?” Trump had no legal authority to stop anything.

    The rioters believed they were doing Trump’s bidding, as many of them have said. It’s obvious that some prominent Trump supporters (and relatives) believed that they would have responded to his instruction to stop what they were doing and leave the Capitol, but Trump resisted their entreaties to make such a statement — for hours.

    Another thing we now know is that when Trump finally said “go home in peace … we love you,” the statement was his third draft. Aides had told him that the previous two were too congratulatory toward the rioters.

    The texts also demonstrate that Trump’s defenders have been disingenuous in their efforts to pin the riots on Antifa or the feds are anyone but Trump supporters, and in their claims that Trump did everything he could to stop the violence.

    If there was violence it was the responsibility of the people being violent,

    They are legally responsible, and the courts have in fact been rejecting efforts to say “Trump made me do it.” But Trump is morally responsible for stirring up their rage, telling them to be in DC for a “wild” protest, then instructing them to “fight like hell” and show “strength” to “take back” their country. (Even in law, people who don’t physically commit a crime but participate in planning it are held accountable.)

    Emerging evidence points to the probability that Trump saw the “persuasive” power of the mob as his last remaining tool for overturning the election. He should be held politically accountable for it, and never given any position of power again.

    Radegunda (f7afa3)

  44. 23. nk (1d9030) — 12/14/2021 @ 6:02 am

    What I like, is I like to think of 145 years from now when Trump is remembered about as much as Rutherford B. Hayes is remembered today.

    Do you realize in how many books published between, say, 2005 and 2009, Donald Trump is mentioned at least once?

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Donald+Trump&year_start=1800&year_end=2010&corpus=0&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CDonald%20Trump%3B%2Cc0

    Actually, he his peak in 2003 (this only goes up to 2010)

    I think he’s achieved being remembered.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  45. So I guess the goalposts have moved from Trump knew and planned the riot to he didn’t, but should’ve done more to stop it from happening?

    That about sum it up?

    When is the two minutes 5 years of hate going to end?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  46. I have done a somewhat different search, Sammy, in a database I find useful. The top three were 1) a modern book on sexual positions, 2) the original Kamasutra, and 3) Frank Herbert’s Dune (the first in the series).

    Just saying.

    nk (1d9030)

  47. i knew you wouldn’t get it

    JF (861bfc) — 12/14/2021 @ 7:56 am

    Of course he wouldn’t get that just a few threads ago he asked for people to be banned for telling the author of a blog to write about something different, but he gets to freely complain that a tv host doesn’t talk about what he wants them to.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  48. Radegunda (f7afa3) — 12/14/2021 @ 8:55 am

    Emerging evidence points to the probability that Trump saw the “persuasive” power of the mob as his last remaining tool for overturning the election. He should be held politically accountable for it, and never given any position of power again.

    Not true.

    He had a different game plan.

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/rudy-giuliani-speech-transcript-at-trumps-washington-d-c-rally-wants-trial-by-combat

    …Rudy Giuliani: (00:09)

    Hello. Hello everyone. We’re here just very briefly to make a very important two points. Number one; every single thing that has been outlined as the plan for today is perfectly legal. I have Professor Eastman here with me to say a few words about that….

    It took everyone associated officially with Donald Trump by surprise. That;s what all these text messages indicate.

    Even Ali Alexander claims to have been taken by surprise and blames the organizers of the rally at the Ellipse for mot printing instructions as to where to go at the Capitol (of course the rallies were not legally connected, and no march was authorized.)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/08/us/politics/ali-alexander-jan-6-house-testimony.html

    Ali Alexander, a prominent organizer of Stop the Steal rallies with ties to far-right members of Congress who sought to invalidate the 2020 election results, is cooperating with the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 Capitol riot, pledging to deliver a trove of documents that could shed light on the activities that preceded the attack…

    … According to the prepared statement, he planned to fault Amy Kremer and her daughter Kylie Kremer, who ran a group called Women for America First that helped to organize the Jan. 6 events.
    He said the leaders of the event at the Ellipse removed instructions from the program telling attendees exactly where to go and what to do after the event concluded.

    And Mr. Alexander said the event that he scheduled never took place, because the crowd from the Ellipse had already turned into a mob.

    “The ‘One Nation Under God’ event that Stop the Steal was a part of did not start the chaos,” he said.

    A spokesman representing Women for America First did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

    Ali Alexander is casting blame in the wrong direction. He has to know where the true leads are. It’s probably, ultimately, Vladimir Putin. Which wold mean it was a false flag operation, after all.

    Incidentally, there were permits for more than one rally at the Capitol (I think they were limited to 50 persons a piece because of Covid restrictions, so they applied for many of them.)

    And at least one of these rallies actually took place:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/us/far-right-extremism-anti-vaccine.html

    On Jan. 6, while rioters advanced on the Capitol, numerous leading figures in the anti-vaccination movement were onstage nearby, holding their own rally to attack both the election results and Covid-19 vaccinations.

    Events overshadowed their protest, but at least one outspoken activist, Dr. Simone Gold of Beverly Hills, Calif., was charged with breaching the Capitol….

    NB: Donald Trump was not behind the anti-vaccine movement, but the anti-vaccine movement was behind him.

    Anti-vax is more like Putin’s game. It’s causing trouble in Russia now – Putin can’t turn around public opinion in Russia about vaccinating against Covid. It was mostly aimed at foreign vaccines, especially Pfizer, and was targeted at foreign audiences, but some of it was done on Russian media received in Russia, and was anti-Covid vaccinations in general.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  49. Question for Ali Alexander:

    Was Doonald Trump supposed to speak at his rally at the Capitol as he and Alex Jones were recorded on video as saying and as Donald Trump said in his speech at the Ellipse?

    https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial

    And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going to walk down, we’re going to walk down.

    (not that he was going to be marching with them. Trump meant he would be at the Capitol.)

    If Ali Alexander’s answer is yes, as far as he knew Trump was going to be speaking there, then a follow-up question is: When did Donald Trump cancel his appearance??

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  50. nk@46 This doesn’t sound like what a search for Donald Trump would turn up.

    He’s surely not mentioned in “Dune”

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/01/trump-as-god-emperor

    e dominated politics for what seemed like an eternity. Certainly nobody could remember what it was like before he came along. With his titanic presence, he forced public life to revolve around himself through sheer will and apparent omnipresence. His mere whims altered current events and made his personal life unpredictable. He seemed to sleep only rarely. He had a machine that was connected directly to his brain by which he could immediately transmit his thoughts, and he used it frequently. He had many devoted followers — and many enemies. But this latter group eventually succeeded in doing the unthinkable — ending the era of his dominance — by exploiting a key weakness that was an unforeseen consequence of his apparent strength. He had tiny hands.

    I speak, of course, of Leto II Atreides, the God Emperor of <i? Dune, not of Donald Trump, despite their similarities (and some important differences). The titular main character of the fourth book in Frank Herbert’s epic sci-fi series Dune, the God Emperor is both a culmination of what came before and a complete separation from it….

    ….There remains a great deal we can learn about the Trump years from the God Emperor of Dune, in their similarities and in their differences.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  51. Of course he wouldn’t get that just a few threads ago he asked for people to be banned for telling the author of a blog to write about something different, but he gets to freely complain that a tv host doesn’t talk about what he wants them to.

    As far as lame analogies go, yours is one of the lamer. Maybe one day you’ll grow up and realize that you’re a guest here and the host can write and do whatever he wants, including ignore your demands for what you feel is “balance”. Oh, and operative phrase was “penalty box”, not “banned”.
    Hannity can direct the content of his show any which way he wants. But with his media megaphone and influence on millions, not to mention his intimate access to Trump and senior WH officials, it’s hard not to notice the obvious hole in the Meadows segment.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  52. Trump’s refusal to tell the rioters to knock it and his half-hearted stilted speech when, hours later, he finally did, has been a story from day one, NJRob. The committee is now uncovering, sorting, and organizing all the evidence.

    nk (1d9030)

  53. Sammy,

    #48 I swear, do you take your approach to political analysis from Ellery Queen mysteries? It’s always the least likely method propounded by the least likely suspect in the most complicated manner possible.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  54. #51

    I can hardly wait to the part where Trump turns into a giant worm…Of course, he already has the right coloration…

    Appalled (1a17de)

  55. 33. Radegunda (0159b9) — 12/14/2021 @ 7:50 am

    It makes the case that they didn’t just plan to attend a “rally” and it got out of hand.

    Right.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/05/nyregion/proud-boys-capitol-riot-conspiracy.html

    In a flurry of court papers filed in recent days — in four separate cases against six individual Proud Boys — federal officials have painted scenes like this, assembling the first draft of a narrative that suggests the Proud Boys brought some coordination to the Capitol attack.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/us/politics/oath-keepers-proud-boys-capitol-riot.html

    Leaders of the Oath Keepers militia and the far-right group the Proud Boys were in communication in the weeks before the Capitol riot and appear to have coordinated some plans for the day of the attack, prosecutors said in court papers.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/us/politics/oath-keepers-trump-investigation.html

    n a pair of court papers filed on Thursday, prosecutors offered further evidence that the three Oath Keepers planned the attack, citing text messages reaching back to November. In one message from Nov. 16, prosecutors say, Mr. Crowl told Mr. Caldwell, “War is on the horizon.” One week later, court papers say, Mr. Caldwell wrote Ms. Watkins saying he was “worried about the future of our country,” adding, “I believe we will have to get violent to stop this.”

    It wasn’t spontaneously set off y Trump’s speech, as the impeachment resolution this year said.

    The only way Trump was responsible is if he conspired together with then. But it makes sense that Trump was roped into lending his support to that rally (at the Capitol)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  56. Senator Blumenthal went to a communist party celebration of their longevity.

    They’re not even hiding it anymore.

    Keep aiding and abetting.

    NJRob (707895)

  57. In what way are these texts “damning?”

    I can’t honestly tell if you have missed the point accidentally or deliberately. What makes these texts…let’s say, problematic…is that it puts the lie to every one of these Fox News personalities who have taken your line since January 6. They apparently thought there was something Trump could have done, that day…

    Trump had no legal authority to stop anything.

    Yes, legal authority is the only kind of authority. I’m sure the crowd that assembled to protest an election they believed was stolen would not have listened to the man they thought the election would have been stolen from, if he told them to leave the Capitol and go home.

    So it’s deliberate, then.

    Trump is not responsible for the violence as his speech to go an protest the congress is a first amendment protected activity.

    Breaking and entering is not protected by the First Amendment. Neither are true threats.

    If there was violence…

    Miller Smith (a6775a) — 12/14/2021 @ 8:12 am

    IF?!

    Blocked.

    Demosthenes (2119b9)

  58. Appalled (1a17de) — 12/14/2021 @ 9:51 am

    do you take your approach to political analysis from Ellery Queen mysteries? It’s always the least likely method propounded by the least likely suspect in the most complicated manner possible.

    Some things are complicated, especially things that, on the surface, don’t make any sense for anyone to do.

    I need to think to explain where I do that and where I do not. I need to think of examples, and from that lay out what is the common thread.

    One thing is, all facts must be explained (but of course, it could be you have no idea, but often it is available)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  59. There is something awkward in the transcript of Trump’s January 6 speech where he says he will be there with them (meaning at the Capitol because Alex Jones also said that speaking through a bullhorn on the Capitol grounds, and they are unlikely to have both invented the same lie) but all three transcripts I found have it, and the linked video is no longer available;

    https://factba.se/transcript/donald-trump-speech-campaign-rally-the-ellipse-january-6-2021

    Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you, we’re going to walk down, we’re going to walk down — Anyone you want, but I think right here, we’re going to walk down to the capital and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women, and we’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them.

    o that;s what he told the crowd at the first rally,

    There were three things mentioned on the same web page:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20210106005050/https://wildprotest.com

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  60. There is no question that the contents of Trump’s speech at the Ellipse did not cause the riot, even if he was part of the conspiracy to cause the riot.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  61. Paul, the difference between “why don’t you write more posts about ponies” and “you’re talking about ponies in a way that contradicts things you said previously about them and hiding that fact” seems pretty clear to me.

    But no one should expect Hannity to be honest with his audience or MAGA supporters to care about that.

    Time123 (59cf00)

  62. NJRob: “So I guess the goalposts have moved from Trump knew and planned the riot to he didn’t, but should’ve done more to stop it from happening?”

    My impression was that it has always been the latter….mixed in with using consistently hyperbolic language to incite gullible people. It is curious why Trump bunkered down and appeared to be waiting to see what would happen…rather than making a statement and taking some action to secure the Capitol…especially with all of the texts coming in pleading for him to do something. It befuddles me to think why good people are so willing to excuse this and reward the man with continued control of the GOP….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  63. How is it a “minor riot” when it disrupted a Constitutional proceeding and was the first non-peaceful transfer of power in American history?

    I would imagine Abraham Lincoln is scratching his head in bewilderment at your assertion.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  64. The Bidenbots are terribly predictable and Putin smiled.

    mg (8cbc69)

  65. Not true.
    He had a different game plan.

    I didn’t say it was his original game plan. But by Jan. 5-6, when all else had failed, he expected his mob to apply the necessary “encouragement” to induce legislators to go along with other parts of his scheme.

    It wasn’t spontaneously set off y Trump’s speech, as the impeachment resolution this year said.
    The only way Trump was responsible is if he conspired together with then. But it makes sense that Trump was roped into lending his support to that rally (at the Capitol)

    Sorry, but it’s pure nonsense to say that Trump was “roped into lending his support” to a rally for himself and giving a long, pugnacious speech encouraging his adoring fans to “fight like hell” to keep him in power — a subject that he’s still obsessed with to this day.

    Also, no one claims that the riot was “spontaneously set off by Trump’s speech.” Rather, the factually supportable case is that Trump’s speech was the culmination of two-month pattern of incitement.
    It’s certainly possible that the Proud Boys et al. would have broken into the Capitol even if Trump hadn’t spoken at the rally that day. But it’s certain that thousands of people showed up expecting to hear him speak, and there’s ample evidence that many of them were responding to his fighting words in real time.

    Radegunda (f7afa3)

  66. > pretend that a minor riot was somehow the worst calamity to befall D.C. since 1814.

    an angry mob broke into the capitol building in an attempt to prevent Congress from doing its sworn duty under the US constitution. why should we let go of that?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  67. > in a way that will throw the presidential election into chaos the moment it is invoked.

    it frustrates me that when i try to make this point, i’m usually told that i’m just speculating and living in fear and that worry about the consequences of our actions isn’t a good reason to not try and fix the problems in front of us.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  68. It befuddles me to think why good people are so willing to excuse this and reward the man with continued control of the GOP

    Me too. Why are people so emotionally invested in defending him at all costs? It’s as if millions of people absorbed his narcissistic self-regard and made it into their own creed.

    Radegunda (f7afa3)

  69. Trump really did say “Anyone you want..”

    The Wall Street Hournal out up the video of the Jan 6 speech (behind a paywall)

    https://www.wsj.com/video/trump-full-speech-at-dc-rally-on-jan-6/E4E7BBBF-23B1-4401-ADCE-7D4432D07030.html

    He made some incredible claims (like there were hundreds of thousand of people there or that in Pennsylvania you had 205,000 more votes than you had voters) engaged in satire, (single most unhappy, is Hillary Clinton because she said, “Why didn’t you do this for me four years ago? Why didn’t you do this for me four years ago? Change the votes! 10,000 in Michigan. You could have changed the whole thing!”) made a few faulty arguments (the election is more important than it was 24 hours ago because of the Georgia Senate races) and had a few somewhat legitimate arguments which he somewhat misstated and he tried to make proof of fraud (Pennsylvania illegally changed the election rules because the state legislature did not authorize it)

    He claims Joe Biden ave $1 billion to get rid of a prosecutor (Joe Biden was lying about that, though)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  70. Radegunda (f7afa3) — 12/14/2021 @ 11:17 am

    But by Jan. 5-6, when all else had failed, he expected his mob to apply the necessary “encouragement” to induce legislators to go along with other parts of his scheme.

    He even anticipated losing the upcoming vote in Coongress!

    Speaking Jan 6:

    …Today, we see a very important event though, because right over there, right there, we see the event going to take place. And I’m going to be watching, because history is going to be made. We’re going to see whether or not we have great and courageous leaders or whether or not we have leaders that should be ashamed of themselves throughout history, throughout eternity, they’ll be ashamed. And you know what? If they do the wrong thing, we should never ever forget that they did. Never forget. We should never ever forget. With only three of the seven states in question, we win the presidency of the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  71. #68

    It’s as if millions of people absorbed his narcissistic self-regard and made it into their own creed.

    Trump embodies the “base’s” grievances and merges them with his own. It’s political genius, utterly toxic, and possibly accidental.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  72. Sorry, but it’s pure nonsense to say that Trump was “roped into lending his support” to a rally for himself and giving a long, pugnacious speech encouraging his adoring fans to “fight like hell” to keep him in power — a subject that he’s still obsessed with to this day.

    He was talking about himself fighting like hell (but included the people there.

    …I think one of our great achievements will be election security because nobody until I came along, had any idea how corrupt our elections were. And again, most people [running for office] would stand there at 9:00 in the evening [on Election Day] and say, “I want to thank you very much,” and they go off to some other life, but I said, “Something’s wrong here. Something’s really wrong. Can’t have happened.” And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.

    And this is what he encouraged his adoring fans to do:

    …Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

    Donald Trump: (18:16) We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections, but whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country…

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  73. This is a fun thread to read. 😂

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  74. I would imagine Abraham Lincoln is scratching his head in bewilderment at your assertion.

    And now I’m scratching my head in bewilderment. I was unaware that certification of electoral votes occurred at Ford’s Theatre on 4/15/1865, 5-plus weeks after inauguration. As I recall, we were at war when Lincoln was certified and inaugurated, but the transition itself was non-violent.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  75. Also, no one claims that the riot was “spontaneously set off by Trump’s speech.” Rather, the factually supportable case is that Trump’s speech was the culmination of two-month pattern of incitement.

    Yes, Of course there was background – there is always background – but it still amounts to saying it was spontaneously set off by the speech because the speech said nothing about storming the Capitol. And that;s what the impeachment resolution claimed:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/24/text

    In the months preceding the Joint Session, President Trump repeatedly issued false statements asserting that the Presidential election results were the product of widespread fraud and should not be accepted by the American people or certified by State or Federal officials. Shortly before the Joint Session commenced, President Trump, addressed a crowd at the Ellipse in Washington, DC. There, he reiterated false claims that “we won this election, and we won it by a landslide”. He also willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged—and foreseeably resulted in—lawless action at the Capitol, such as: “if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore”. Thus incited by President Trump, members of the crowd he had addressed, in an attempt to, among other objectives, interfere with the Joint Session’s solemn constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election, unlawfully breached and vandalized the Capitol, injured and killed law enforcement personnel, menaced Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and engaged in other violent, deadly, destructive, and seditious act

    This is simply not true. It wasn’t members of that crowd who started the riot, but it was preplanned by people who mostly went directly to the Capitol and never heard the speech. It was not foreseeable, and the proof of that is, that nobody foresaw it. That speech was not given in secret. If it was foreseeable from his words, how come nobody at the Capitol foresaw it? If you want to say it was, I would have to say you’re postulating some dog whistle.

    It’s certainly possible that the Proud Boys et al. would have broken into the Capitol even if Trump hadn’t spoken at the rally that day. But it’s certain that thousands of people showed up expecting to hear him speak, and there’s ample evidence that many of them were responding to his fighting words in real time.

    Only a fraction of the 8,000 or so people who came to the Capitol broke in.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  76. If there was violence…

    Miller Smith (a6775a) — 12/14/2021 @ 8:12 am

    The mere fact that you question whether there was violence is emblematic of loyal Trumpers who refuse to believe what they can see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears. Reality is willingly suspended in favor of buying the lies of a practiced grifter. Even when those lies are demonstrably proven to be untrue.

    Dana (5395f9)

  77. There was plenty of violence that day:

    The first time Victoria White visited the nation’s capital was on January 6, 2021. Listening to President Trump’s speech—with her teen daughter and three friends alongside her—would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience, White thought.

    Instead, the day turned into a personal nightmare with real-time flashbacks to her years as a victim of domestic abuse.

    White, a mother of four, recounted to me this week by phone in horrifying and heartbreaking detail how at least two D.C. Metropolitan police officers viciously assaulted her inside a tunnel on the lower west terrace of the Capitol building on January 6. Fierce battles between police and protesters took place inside the tunnel, which leads to a set of doors that allows access to the building. It is the location where Rosanne Boyland, a 34-year-old Trump supporter from Georgia, died.

    https://amgreatness.com/2021/12/08/150045/

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  78. This is what Trump said:

    John [Eastman] is one of the most brilliant lawyers in the country, and he looked at this and he said, ” What an absolute disgrace, that this could be happening to our constitution.” He looked at Mike Pence, and I hope Mike is going to do the right thing.

    Donald Trump: (08:09)

    I hope so. I hope so because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. All he has to do. This is from the number one or certainly one of the top constitutional lawyers in our country. He has the absolute right to do it…

    ….Donald Trump: (09:08)

    I just spoke to Mike. I said, “Mike, that doesn’t take courage. What takes courage is to do nothing. That takes courage,” and then we’re stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot, and we have to live with that for four more years. We’re just not going to let that happen. Many of you have traveled from all across the nation to be here, and I want to thank you for the extraordinary love. That’s what it is. There’s never been a movement like this ever, ever for the extraordinary love for this amazing country and this amazing movement. Thank you.

    How was he going to stop it? Political pressure.

    And he had no further plan. he told the crowd:

    We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. If he doesn’t, that will be a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our constitution.

    Not: If he doesn’t we go into the Capitol

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  79. The only way Trump was responsible is if he conspired together with then. But it makes sense that Trump was roped into lending his support to that rally (at the Capitol)

    Trump wasn’t “roped” into anything. For godsake, he was the President of the United States. That’s not a chump role in government. He was an incredibly powerful, self-serving official, and with intention made a decision to support the rioters BECAUSE he had been playing them toward that end goal for several months. Why not let an adult be held responsible for his decision-making, be it good or bad?

    Dana (5395f9)

  80. It wasn’t until she finally viewed video evidence in June produced by the Justice Department under discovery in her criminal case that White realized the extent of the violent, almost sadistic, assault against her.

    “I was absolutely horrified to see myself get hit and start to fall. There were multiple officers hitting people. One officer in a white shirt focused solely on me. He kept bashing and hitting me over and over.”

    White described how the officer changed his grip on the metal rod—a device intended to break glass in emergencies, not to be used against human beings—to exact more force. “He begins to bash and poke me. Then another officer takes my hair and shakes my head back and forth.”

    As if that weren’t enough, the supervisor wearing the white shirt starts hitting her directly in the face. “He takes his left hand, balls it up, and punches me in the face. I finally put my hand on my head and tried to grab his stick to get him to stop.”

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  81. Trump was a;ready campaigning against Liz Cheney on the morning of January 6:

    onald Trump: (44:39)
    Two months ago, we had a massive crowd come down to Washington. I said, “What are they there for.” “Sir, they’re there for you.” We have nothing to do with it. These groups, they’re forming all over the United States. And we got to remember, in a year from now, you’re going to start working on Congress. And we got to get rid of the weak congresspeople, the ones that aren’t any good, the Liz Cheneys of the world, we got to get rid of them. We got to get rid of them. She never wants a soldier brought home. I’ve brought a lot of our soldiers home. I don’t know, some like it. They’re in countries that nobody even knows the name. Nobody knows where they are. They’re dying. They’re great, but they’re dying. They’re losing their arms, their legs, their face. I brought them back home, largely back home, Afghanistan, Iraq. Remember I used to say in the old days, “Don’t go into Iraq. But if you go in, keep the oil.” We didn’t keep the oil. So stupid. So stupid, these people. And Iraq has billions and billions of dollars now in the bank. And what did we do? We get nothing. We never get. But we do actually, we kept the oil here. We did good. We got rid of the ISIS caliphate. We got rid of plenty of different things that everybody knows and the rebuilding of our military in three years, people said it couldn’t be done. And it was all made in the USA, all made in the USA. Best equipment in the world. In Wisconsin, corrupt Democrat run cities deployed more than 500 illegal unmanned, unsecured drop boxes, which collected a minimum of 91,000 unlawful votes. It was razor thin the loss. This one thing alone is much more than we would need, but there are many things.

    Notice that Trump says he didn’t organize the pro-Trump rallies. WE don;t know the contrary.

    Of course you can see other things said right here that could almost cause you to sputter.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  82. White’s account is vaguely referenced in the Justice Department’s own charging documents. Investigators claimed officers tried to “fend her off with a baton . . . and it appears that she is attempting to grab a shield and uses her hand to block the baton.”

    A motion filed last month by Joseph McBride, her new attorney, in the case of Ryan Nichols (another January 6 client of McBride’s), provided more explicit details related to the attack on White. McBride viewed three hours of surveillance footage recorded by security cameras inside the tunnel on January 6; that video remains under a protective order for now.

    According to McBride, the supervisor hit White at least 13 times with the metal stick and at least five times in her face with his fist. He then “spears and pokes [White] with his baton about the head, neck, and face so as to inflict maximum pain,” McBride wrote. This happened as White tried to escape the tunnel numerous times. Another officer joined in and “starts beating [White] in the head with his baton, landing twelve strikes in seven seconds.”

    White’s head was bleeding; she was covered in red welts.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  83. Trump made a decision not to immediately try to call back the rioters because he hates going against his own interests, not because he planned it.. He had a different plan for stalling the certification of the votes.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  84. Dana (5395f9) — 12/14/2021 @ 12:17 pm

    Trump wasn’t “roped” into anything. For godsake, he was the President of the United States. That’s not a chump role in government.

    Who originated the idea for these rallies? It wasn;t anyone on Trump’s staff. Trump even claimed, and this must be at least a half truth:

    Two months ago, we had a massive crowd come down to Washington. I said, “What are they there for.” “Sir, they’re there for you.” We have nothing to do with it. These groups, they’re forming all over the United States.

    He was roped into this.

    He thought or was told, that the massive crowd (which he claimed was of hundreds of thousands of people instead of several thousand people) would put political pressure on Congress (he didn’t notice that even if all Republicans supported him, he didn’t have the votes to reverse the election, or he was thought that he needed Mike Pence – and even then he needed several state legislatures. It was all people telling him what he wanted to hear: That there was a way for him to pull it out.

    I doubt that any of the people planning the riot told him the truth about why they wanted those rallies. A riot conflicted with his plans for the day. He was roped into the rioters’ plans. That’s the way I see it.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  85. “White’s head was bleeding; she was covered in red welts.”

    This sort of thing happened all the time during the BLM protests.

    Defund the police, eh?

    Davethulhu (f38130)

  86. A riot conflicted with his plans for the day.

    I wonder why more people don’t understand this. The certification took place. What was interrupted was the process of objecting to the electors.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  87. For Trump to have been involved in the planning of the riot (with what end game?) he would have to have been working with people he otherwise was not involved with.

    I can see him working with other than the usual people to stage and speak at rallies, but that’s being roped into other people’s plans.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  88. Hi Dave!

    Now the hysteria can continue.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  89. I’m always fascinated by right-wingers discovering how the American criminal justice system works and then thinking that they’re being uniquely persecuted.

    Davethulhu (f38130)

  90. Bashing in skulls is the American Justice system according to Dave.

    Fascinating.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  91. Victoria White was charged with…

    “Knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds; violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building; impeding or attempting to impede law enforcement officers performing official duties; obstruction of justice/Congress.”

    But by all means, let’s treat this rioter and criminal as a victim. None of this would’ve happened had she chose to stay outside where she belonged, away from the other rioters. Instead, she purposely and deliberately entered the Capitol Building with her fellow criminals. Here is part of what the charging document says:

    YouTube video posted by The Black Conservative Preacher, beginning at approximately the :20 mark, WHITE can be seen pushing her way towards the tunnel entrance of the lower west terrace, where there was a squad of Metropolitan Police (“MPD”) officers preventing the rioters from entering. At around this time, the rioters can be heard chanting, “PULL THE COPS OUT! PULL THE COPS OUT!” See “THAT’S ONE BIG FLAG! / THE STORM ARRIVED PT. 7” (posted Jan. 8, 2021) (available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUoBiRXZs5Q). At approximately the :48 mark, WHITE is seen raising her fist and cheering as the rioters force a large flagpole into the entranceway where the MPD officers are standing guard. At approximately the 2:18 mark, after WHITE has pushed her way closer to the entrance, she helps hoist up another rioter, who then makes his way to the entrance and proceeds to assault the MPD officers. WHITE is seen pointing and cheering as the rioter swings from the top of the entranceway and kicks the MPD officers. As the video progresses, WHITE is seen moving closer to the entranceway.
    […]
    While reviewing this footage, your affiant observed that at approximately 4:05 p.m., an individual who appears to be WHITE made her way to the front of the lower west terrace entranceway up against the riot shields of the MPD officers. By approximately 4:06 p.m., WHITE made her way into the lower west terrace of the U.S. Capitol building. By approximately 4:07 p.m., WHITE’s red cap had fallen off, she lost her black coat, and she can be seen inside the entranceway grabbing for one of the MPD officers standing on a ledge. As the video progresses, the MPD officers attempt to push WHITE back with their riot shields and fend her off with a baton. WHITE is seen in a red sweater, and it appears that she is attempting to grab a shield and uses her hand to block the baton.

    She wasn’t just casually strolling through the Capitol grounds and inadvertently stumbled into this situation. She was there, right in the middle of it, for around two solid hours. Because of this, this is the full extent of my sympathy for this insurrectionist.

    To round out the picture further, Julie Kelly is one of the Trumpiest water-carrying hyperpartisans at American Greatness, which is saying something.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  92. Trumper Lives Matter, Dave.

    I read what BuDuh puts out there, and it might be police brutality. I’d like to see the film. I also wonder whether Mom bringing her teenage kid and their friends into a fraught situation like this was making good decisions.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  93. 89 — it is pretty breathtaking, isn’t it? the same terrible treatment meted out to tens of thousands of people who later turn out to have done nothing wrong is now visited upon them, and they’re horrified — but they’ve been ignoring complaints about it for years.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  94. As I recall, we were at war when Lincoln was certified and inaugurated, but the transition itself was non-violent.

    So you’re going to build your argument around the idea that the certification and inauguration didn’t come until after seven states had seceded (with four more to come), even though Fort Sumter had been fired upon three days earlier and other federal property had been seized by the states in rebellion, and that the actual certification and inauguration were thus technically peaceful and non-violent? I have to confess, I find that line of logic utterly bizarre, but I guess you’re welcome to it. I still assert that Abraham Lincoln would take an exceedingly dim view of what you wrote.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  95. “Bashing in skulls is the American Justice system according to Dave.
    Fascinating.”

    Well, yeah. I don’t approve but here we are.

    “I read what BuDuh puts out there, and it might be police brutality. I’d like to see the film. ”

    It probably was. We had protests about this last year. BuDuh was probably cheering the skull bashing at the time.

    Davethulhu (f38130)

  96. I’d like to see the film.

    Me too. Dave doesn’t want to even think about their being a video.

    Also, my understanding from the article is that the teenager and friend went to Trump’s speech and didn’t go to the wide open Capitol.

    BuDuh (6de464)

  97. …there…

    BuDuh (6de464)

  98. Where are the charges of sedition and insurrection if they were trying to overthrow the government. So far the rioters are charged with minor crimes and process violations that numerous other people who have been charged with who clearly weren’t trying to overthrow the government of the united states. This was riot until you can prove otherwise.

    asset (45d022)

  99. “Dave doesn’t want to even think about their being a video.”

    Wow how embarrassing for you.

    Davethulhu (f38130)

  100. As is your suggestion that I had the wrong concerns about last years riots?

    Fascinating indeed.

    BuDuh (032226)

  101. JVW, it seems like you’re conflating the state of war at the time and the state of presidential transition. There was obviously a declared war weeks after Lincoln was certified and inaugurated, but the transition itself was peaceful. I don’t recall any Confederates trying to storm the Capitol at the beginning of either of Lincoln’s terms to disrupt his ascendance to the job, but I’ll mark this down as two people talking past each other.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  102. Trump’s delay tells me a lot about his intent. I know that his supporters claim that he was surprised and disappointed in the attack, but not one thing he did before or after shows me anything other than his intent and full support. If any dissappointment was involved it was that the ballot-counting resumed.

    Here’s an analogy: A husband invites his misogynistic thug friend over. His thug friend brings a baseball bat and upon seeing the householder’s wife, starts beating her with the bat. The husband, seeing this, goes into the kitchen to make a sandwich. The wife is beaten to death.

    The thug escapes and the police come. The husband professes no foreknowledge of the event and says that he was deeply upset by the violence and will help the police find the killer.

    What do you think the DA will do?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  103. Also that he misses the wife as he hates to make his own sandwiches.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. Knowingly entering or remaining in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority; disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds; violent entry and disorderly conduct on Capitol grounds; parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building; impeding or attempting to impede law enforcement officers performing official duties; obstruction of justice/Congress.”

    Those in italics are rarely prosecuted and in fact are sometimes set up by members of Congress for their own purposes. I don’t disagree about the other charges being serious, I just hate to see this kind of bulking up of charges.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. Government Wins Key Ruling on Issue Affecting Hundreds of Capitol Riot Cases
    …….
    U.S. District Judge Dabney Friedrich found that a central felony charge in a large subset of the Jan. 6 cases—“corruptly obstructing an official proceeding” —had been properly invoked and was not unconstitutionally vague. The provision has been lodged against about 270 of the more than 690 Capitol Riot defendants accused so far in federal court (about 40 percent of all cases). In many prosecutions, it is the only felony charged. Jacob Chansley, for instance—the so-called QAnon Shaman—pleaded guilty to a single charge of corruptly impeding an official proceeding. He is now appealing his 41-month sentence.

    Prosecutors appear to have turned to the obstruction of an official proceeding law—which carries a 20-year maximum prison term—in lieu of invoking the more politically incendiary, rarely tested and challenging-to-prove charges of insurrection, under 18 U.S.C. §2383, or seditious conspiracy, under 18 U.S.C. §2384……..

    But numerous defendants have protested that this statute—which was originally enacted as part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002—is inapplicable to the Jan. 6 insurrection. Sarbanes-Oxley was passed in the wake of the collapse of Enron, whose auditor had destroyed potentially incriminating financial documents that could have been used against the company in criminal proceedings. The defendants argue that this legislative history, together with the law’s structure, show that it was designed to punish obstructions only of official proceedings involving “the administration of justice”—that is, hearings involving “witness testimony” or “evidence.” The title of the section of the U.S. Code containing these provisions—“Tampering with a witness, victim or informant”—supports that view, the defendants argue. A joint session of Congress to certify the Electoral College vote was not the sort of “official proceeding” Congress had in mind, they contend.

    The defendants also argue that the statute’s use of the word “corruptly” is unconstitutionally vague, violating the defendants’ Due Process rights……..

    It is true, in fact, that the government sometimes seems to be choosing between whether to charge a felony or misdemeanor based largely upon how far into the Capitol building a given rioter penetrated. Nonviolent rioters who only reached the Capitol Rotunda, for instance, have typically been charged with misdemeanors. Those who penetrated the Senate chamber, on the other hand, or into Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s or Sen. Jeff Merkley’s offices have often been charged with felonies.

    The specific cases before Judge Friedrich involved extremely serious allegations. Defendants Ronald Sandlin and Nathaniel DeGrave were each charged with multiple felonies for, among other things, conspiracy and assaulting six police officers.
    ……..
    ……..Friedrich’s succinct 26-page ruling does provide the government with a strong win and a well-reasoned precedent to show other judges. It employs a textualist, plain-meaning analysis that appears well crafted to appeal to conservative jurists, including the majority of the Supreme Court as currently composed. Friedrich was appointed to the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia by President Trump and previously served as an associate counsel to President George W. Bush.

    As for the statutory question, Judge Friedrich had little problem finding that §1512(c)(2) applied to the facts at hand. While it was true that Sarbanes-Oxley was spurred by very different events, “statutes often reach beyond the principal evil that animated them,” she wrote.

    She found no textual basis for interpreting the phrase “official proceeding” to reach only hearings involving the taking of testimony or evidence…….

    Although she agreed with the defendants that the “proceeding” in question “must be akin to a formal hearing,” the constitutionally and statutorily mandated joint session before Congress to certify the Electoral College votes met that hurdle.
    ……..
    Reviewing other courts’ interpretations of the meaning of “corruptly,” she found that the word had generally been construed to mean “wrongfully,” “intentionally,” or using means that were “independently criminal” or “inherently malign.”
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  106. Those in italics are rarely prosecuted and in fact are sometimes set up by members of Congress for their own purposes.

    For your reference, Kevin, insider.com has a list of all the guilty pleas. To date, 129 have pled out. I only looked at the first page, but it looks like many have accepted parading charges.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  107. A riot conflicted with his plans for the day. He was roped into the rioters’ plans. That’s the way I see it.

    If the riot conflicted with his plans, why did he do nothing to call off the rioters — which many people were pleading with him to do — until after LE had basically subdued them already?
    Why did he then say “Go home, we love you, you’re very special”? (NB: that statement was actually less congratulatory toward the rioters than the earlier drafts that his aides told him were inadequate.)
    Why has he subsequently had nothing critical to say about the people who rioted on his behalf?

    And why is it so very important to you to spin everything in such a way that Donald Trump looks innocent of any wrong?

    Radegunda (d859a7)

  108. Considering the source, this is the best argument I’ve heard for paying cable TV’s bloated bundle prices in at least three years.

    Reaganomics.

    It’s ‘a-la-carte’ in Canada.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  109. A riot conflicted with his plans for the day. He was roped into the rioters’ plans. That’s the way I see it.

    Radegunda (d859a7) — 12/14/2021 @ 3:00 pm

    If the riot conflicted with his plans, why did he do nothing to call off the rioters — which many people were pleading with him to do — until after LE had basically subdued them already?

    I think my statement is a little bit wrong. The riot could have alienated Congress . But it is mostly that it duplicated his plan – to delay.

    I think what happened was, that when he saw Congress had gone into recess, and nothing worse had happened, as far as he knew, he thought he could get the benefit of both delays.

    He could get his six challenges – two hours (and really more) for each AND the recess caused by the delay. I don’t think Trump would have planned that – and if he did he would have wanted to make more sure the two causes of delay did not overlap each other.

    (As for why he wanted a delay – this is because Giuliani was telling him that if he had just one more day, states would replace their Electoral votes. And people were lying to Giuliani about what could happen)

    So Trump thought he could gain time without losing it elsewhere. But Democrats were pressing the Republicans to abandon their plans to challenge the Electoral votes from six states. Trump probably spent some of that time counter-arguing – that they should still challenge six states.

    In the end, the Republicans in Congress decided to limit themselves to two challenges (Arizona whch had already started when proceedings were interrupted) and one more.

    In the end the vote was certified earlier than if the riot had not happened at all.

    Why did he then say “Go home, we love you, you’re very special”?

    For one thing, to get them to listen to him! Like a parent telling his child to surrender. Also to avoid losing fans.

    (NB: that statement was actually less congratulatory toward the rioters than the earlier drafts that his aides told him were inadequate.)

    Yes, his aides were trying to move him.

    Why has he subsequently had nothing critical to say about the people who rioted on his behalf?

    Because they did it on his behalf.

    And why is it so very important to you to spin everything in such a way that Donald Trump looks innocent of any wrong?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  110. And why is it so very important to you to spin everything in such a way that Donald Trump looks innocent of any wrong?

    Because I don’t think that’s the truth and I am not trying to make Trump innocent of any wrong. Just not the only person guilty of everything..

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  111. Tucka referred to himself and colleagues this evening as ‘news anchors’ – while addressing the texts issues.

    Breaking news: Tucker Carlson and fellow associated ‘opinionators’ are not news anchors.

    Chris Wallace was a news anchor; Shep Smith was a news anchor; Cronkite, Brokaw, Rather, Jennings, Reynolds, Chet and David, Doug Edwards etc., were ‘news anchors.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  112. Just not the only person guilty of everything.

    Then you’re arguing against a point that no one is making. I’m certainly not asserting any such thing. I just don’t see what good comes from trying to protect Trump from blame for his own manifest sins.

    Radegunda (92f7af)

  113. Hahahaha!!! Yeah, right!

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  114. Victoria White of Rochester, Minnesota: Where are the Derek Chauvins when they’re really needed, is my question. The hoyden storms riot police at the front of a mob trying to force their way into the Capitol, tries to force her way through the police lines grabbing their batons and shields (and probably other things, too, that the police are too gentlemanly to say), and some shyster with no defense to her crimes complains that they drove her back with welts, bruises, and hair-pulling. Okay, then!

    nk (1d9030)

  115. Heh. Hoyden.
    I’m impressed with your vocabulary, nk.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  116. I know words. I have the best words.

    nk (1d9030)

  117. @117 cheney is just doing what nevertrump does best

    all of their candidates are winners in the eyes of the media

    and losers by every other metric

    they couldn’t get elected to an HOA board

    but success to them is measured by lost elections, so it’s all good

    JF (e1156d)

  118. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? — Mark 8:36

    But for Wyoming? If it would profit Liz Cheney nothing to give her soul for the whole world, how much less for Wyoming?

    nk (1d9030)

  119. BTW, that hagiography by Robert Bolt (where I borrowed the quip) is alternate reality. Richard Rich was already Attorney General of England when he sent up Thomas More. And Anne Boleyn was the Duke of Norfolk’s niece. His sister’s daughter. Just something for the Catholics.

    nk (1d9030)

  120. @119 I don’t think your assessment of “every metric” is accurate.

    Nic (896fdf)

  121. JustSecurity presents a potential criminal case against Trump. It mostly rides on Trump’s dereliction in stopping the rioting that he helped start.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  122. And since it was Trump’s Big Lie that started mess, AP is reporting the results of their exhaustive investigation in six battleground states, including checking into 475 fraud allegations, but found only a trickle of illegal votes.
    It only makes his Trump’s Big Lie that much bigger, a BIG LIE as it were.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  123. #123

    What do you think of the argument? I had hopes for the Fulton County investigation of Trump’s calls to the Georgia Secretary of State (and others) being election tampering, but with the usual competance of Fulton County officialdom, they are moving at a far too glacial pace for it to do much good. The indictment, if there was ever going to be one, should have happened already, as the events giving rise to the charge are not really in dispute.

    Offical secret — the governor of Georgia does not have pardon power.

    A Trump indictment should be firmly grounded on crimes we the people understand. It should not rely on novel interpretations of the law.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  124. What do you think of the argument?

    I think it’s premature, Appalled, but we don’t know what evidence the 1/6 Committee has, or to be had. It is becoming all the clearer that Trump had no excuse to wait hours before calling in the NG.
    I agree about the Fulton County case. To me, it seems open-and-shut.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  125. @122 Nic, how many times did you voice support for cheney before she became anti trump?

    i’ll answer for you

    zero

    JF (e1156d)

  126. SF:

    Just not the only person guilty of everything.

    Radegunda (92f7af) — 12/14/2021 @ 5:28 pm

    Then you’re arguing against a point that no one is making. I’m certainly not asserting any such thing.

    Nobody is saying any such thing, because it is absurd. But it is almost the premise

    “A fish rots from the head” said Michael Dukakis in 1988. It often doesn’t, although the head may have some responsibility for setting things up.

    I’ll tell you what bothers me;

    1) The attempt always to attribute responsibility, or full responsibility, to elected officials.

    2) The attack on the principle of freedom of speech by asserting that it is possible to do great damage with words. Trump’s words at the ellipse, did not cause the storming of the Capitol. He may have been involved, but it would have been secretly, behind the scenes, working with different people than he usually did. One illustration: Mark Meadows texted he was pushing hard (to get Trump to say something about the riot)

    I think Trump was roped into the plot, but once it happened, he tried to take advantage of it for a while.

    3) I don;t like “proofs” that are not proofs. There’s too much spin.

    I just don’t see what good comes from trying to protect Trump from blame for his own manifest sins.

    I’m trying to avoid blaming him for things that aren’t true (which protects the peple truly responsible)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  127. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 12/14/2021 @ 9:08 pm

    And since it was Trump’s Big Lie that started mess, AP is reporting the results of their exhaustive investigation in six battleground states, including checking into 475 fraud allegations, but found only a trickle of illegal votes.

    It only makes his Trump’s Big Lie that much bigger, a BIG LIE as it were.

    Giuliani’s still arguing it.

    Even the points that are valid (Republican poll watchers in Pennsylvania not being able to watch the vote count since they didn’t have Superman’s visual acuity) don’t prove his larger claim. (at 151:40 ff) (The reason was Covid)

    https://wabcradio.com/podcast/the-other-side-of-midnight-with-frank-morano

    Go to 145 on the podcast (out of 217:25) It may not be that easy to hit it exactly.

    Incidentally his accusation of Hunter Biden supporting Joe Biden is based on a misinterpretation made by Steve Bannon of a text message Hunter Biden sent to his daughter at the beginning of 2019. I see now Giuliani is at least saying that the Chinese billionaire who tried to bribe Joe Biden’s family is no longer there – except he seems to attribute his disappearance to Chinese gangsters rather than the government – although the CCP is a gang)

    Trump gained votes, cmpared to 216 in the cities!. e did worse in the suburbs. This is true throughout the country.,

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  128. 123. JustSecuriy has a soin (but many facts which should be regarded as leads, but only as leads.

    This is their argument for indicting Trump for January 6:

    …Failing to prevent a crime usually does not make someone an accomplice, but it is sufficient when this person had a legal duty to intervene. For this reason, a railroad conductor who failed to prevent passengers from transporting bootleg liquor was himself convicted of transporting the liquor. Similarly, a parent who made no effort to stop an assault on her child was guilty of the assault herself. And a police officer who arranges to be somewhere else at the time of a robbery aids and abets the robbery….

    Trump didn’t have that kind of a duty.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  129. Giuliani starts at about 130:30 on the Frank Morano podcast and goes on till 160. His talk about the 2020 election runs for about 10 minutes starting at 145.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  130. Giuliani’s still arguing it.

    So what, Sammy. He’s just as evidence-deficient on the election today as he was a year ago. There’s a reason his law license is suspended in DC and NY.

    Paul Montagu (e7d63b)

  131. Giuliani’s still arguing it.

    Paul Montagu (e7d63b) — 12/15/2021 @ 12:10 pm

    So what, Sammy. He’s just as evidence-deficient on the election today as he was a year ago.

    I meant that the BIG LIE is not going away and maybe not yet casing Trump more political trouble than it did a year ago.

    There’s a reason his law license is suspended in DC and NY.

    Frank Morano mentioned that (as a way of doubting his legal expertise)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  132. It’s ‘a-la-carte’ in Canada.

    And generally costs more than the bundle, due to accounting charges, technical costs and markups. People may only watch 10 channels but they pay quite a bit for those 10 channels.

    The way around paying for bundles you don”t want is to drop cable TV entirely, get a solid internet connection, and choose among the dozen or so streaming services. One of those bundles, or sets of mini-bundles, will be cheaper and better than your cable package.

    YouTubeTV works well for me.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  133. Liz Cheney bruised, trails Trump pick by 18 points

    She may lose this one, but she will not be embarrassed by her subservience. After Trump is gone, hopefully very soon, she will be one of those who isn’t still dripping sh1t from her fingers, or explaining why they went along with his evil like the German politicians of the 1950s.

    I expect that Liz Cheney will be the next Senator from Wyoming, if she isn’t on a national ticket.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  134. German politicians of what time?

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)


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