Patterico's Pontifications

11/19/2021

Kyle Rittenhouse: Not Guilty on All Charges

Filed under: General — JVW @ 10:51 am



[guest post by JVW]

This will serve as an open thread for all Rittenhouse/Kenosha related matters, but Kyle Rittenhouse has been found not guilty on all charges by the jury in his Kenosha trial. We have been covering his trial here, here, and here. It will be interesting to find out what took the jury so damn long to reach the conclusion.

Here’s hoping that cool heads prevail in Kenosha and that the city remains peaceful.

[Edit: Added a few words to make clear that this open thread should be restricted to Rittenhouse and Kenosha matters only.]

– JVW

166 Responses to “Kyle Rittenhouse: Not Guilty on All Charges”

  1. I imagine Twitter will be especially stupid over the next few days.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  2. I imagine that one or two jurors had to be talked down off the ledge. There may have been some threats and other tampering.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. It will be interesting to find out what took the jury so damn long to reach the conclusion.

    What probably held up the jury is the judge’s instructions that if Kyle Rittenhouse started the confrontation he loses the right of self defense.

    So they had look at all the video and go through exactly what happened blow by blow.

    Who was the first one to seriously act in a bad way so that someone else needed to defend himself?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  4. It’s 1:00 pm Central Time in Kenosha right now. I think the real test will come when night falls, and I’ll bet local authorities really wish that this verdict had come on any day other than a Friday.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  5. How many hours before the DoJ announces an investigation? The process is the punishment.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. … and Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  7. I’ll bet local authorities really wish that this verdict had come on any day other than a Friday.

    Hunh? Do you really think people will waste their weekend on a protest?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. Here’s a first taste of the coming onslaught of stupidity: some nimrod guest blogger (and believe me, I can recognize a nimrod guest blogger when I see one) on the ReidOut blog run by Joy Reid (also known as the black Richard Spencer) informs us that this verdict isn’t just white supremacy, it’s white conservative supremacy. The race racket stands to do pretty well thanks to this verdict, it would appear.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  9. Do you really think people will waste their weekend on a protest?

    It’s not the protesters I worry about; it’s the rioters. And yeah, this is the worst possible day for this verdict to have come in that regard.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  10. I think Kevin is right about having to talk someone off the ledge, and Sammy is right about the point in question.

    felipe (484255)

  11. @8. Don’t forget this gem:

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/30/biden-links-kyle-rittenhouse-to-white-supremacists/

    Biden links Kyle Rittenhouse to white supremacists; Lin Wood vows to ‘rip Joe into shreds’

    Joe got it wrong then yet again. At least he’s consistent.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  12. I predict no riots or shenanigans, but a lot of breathless media expectations. Maybe something as nearly as comical (morbid?) as what the weather channel pulls during hurricanes – but what do I know? Nothing.

    felipe (484255)

  13. Thank you for the open thread, JVW. This should carry us right into Dana’s weekend thread.

    felipe (484255)

  14. I’m not sure what gets protested. This wasn’t racial…all the principals were white. And as most of us concluded, the evidence didn’t show homicide….and any recklessness could be applied to the rioters more so than the “defenders”. If people want volunteer “defenders” to be punished, then they need to clearly craft laws that describe what they want punished. Bringing a gun into a riot zone that may cause people to approach you, try to take your gun, or otherwise attack you….absent some obvious recklessness….was not punishable based on the charges leveled and what appears to be available to the prosecutor. Now is there a moral weight here? I think so but I understand others see it differently. Police officers receive training on how to deal with mentally troubled persons….how to try to de-escalate situations…..or wait for backup…..or when and how to employ non-lethal force. As cool as Rittenhouse appeared, he was winging it and did get himself in over his head. If he hadn’t injected himself, it is possible that people wouldn’t have died. Perhaps that’s the burden that he has to carry….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  15. Nightfall in Kenosha. Wisconsin.

    Candle lighting 18 minutes before sunset 4:07 PM = sunset 4:25 pm Central time = 5:25 Eastern time, 2:25 pm, Pacific time

    Three stars: 5:10 pm central time = 6:10 pm Eastern time = 3:10 pm Pacific time.

    But time may be needed to organize a riot.

    In New York someone who is supposed to be a leader of lack Lives Matter told mayor elect Eric Adams (or told the press after their meeting) the other day that if he brought back plainclothes cops to take away guns there’d be riots. These people are pro-crime, I would have to guess sponsored by drug dealers.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/black-lives-matter-vs-eric-adams-mayor-new-york-city-hawk-newsome-11636670327

    Eric Adams won the race for New York mayor on a vow to reduce crime and homelessness, and he’s already facing a threat of “riots,” “fire” and worse if he follows through.

    That’s what happened Wednesday after the Mayor-elect hosted members of a local Black Lives Matter chapter to hear out their agenda. The harangue started almost immediately. “Everybody talks about ‘good cops,’” said group co-founder Hawk Newsome. “We don’t believe in good cops.” Mr. Adams spent 22 years as a cop before entering politics.

    Afterward the activists tore into Mr. Adams’s plans to increase street policing. “There will be riots, there will be fire and there will be bloodshed,” Mr. Newsome told the New York Daily News, referring to Mr. Adams’s proposal to reinstate plainclothes police units. Mr. Newsome’s sister Chivona added that “We will give him hell and make it a nightmare.”

    This is no empty threat. After an officer killed George Floyd in Minneapolis last year, rioters in New York damaged or looted about 450 businesses in a 12-day period, according to a New York Post tally. Many protestors marched under the Black Lives Matter banner.

    Violent crime spiked in New York and other cities after the protest wave. Yet under progressive pressure, Mayor Bill de Blasio and police commissioner Dermot Shea disbanded the NYPD’s plainclothes units. These officers had seized hundreds of illegal guns each year in dangerous neighborhoods.

    These people are bluffing, really. You need, however, to defy them. They can’t be appeased. They’re not interested in anything good. But there are intellectuals who maybe don’t realize that or are afraid to say so.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  16. Justice was served at least minimally. Now there need to be lawsuits against those that slandered and libeled Mr. Rittenhouse and disbarments for the corrupt prosecution.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  17. There’s no big Anti-Trump election war chest/slush fund around to mobilize the typical group of permanent career criminals and agitators currently (although, and I stress this very much, the two CarSource owners who lied on the stand deserve to be burned alive in their own business for betraying Kyle and working with the prosecutor to suborn perjury to save their own worthless skins.)

    The decision to bring this case against Kyle in the first place was an absolute atrocity of justice and Kyle could live for the rest of his life suing everyone involved in this collective media/legal defamation of his character and his motivations.

    4doorwhormobile (8de00a)

  18. I pretty sure there will be protests today and the rioters amongst them will test the National Guard and Law Enforcement.
    If enforcement is no nonsense, then there will be little destruction.
    One thing the trial did bring out for me was to learn that everyone Rittenhouse shot or shot at were convicted criminals.
    Another was how the Vandals got so angry when someone put out their fires, stopped them from smashing things. It wasn’t about Mr. Blake at all for those 3 white guys that night, it was about the chaos. I’m not sure it was about Mr. Blake either for Maurice Freeland who is African American

    steveg (e81d76)

  19. @14. Well said.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  20. felipe (484255) — 11/19/2021 @ 11:15 am

    I predict no riots or shenanigans, but a lot of breathless media expectations. Maybe something as nearly as comical (morbid?) as what the weather channel pulls during hurricanes – but what do I know? Nothing.

    I’m expecting this too. I’m actually expecting some “producers” to show up with kerosene and lighters and start passing them out for free.

    frosty (f27e97)

  21. I forgot to say for those that may not know, that Maurice Freeland is now known to be “Jump Kick Man”
    or as Binger liked to call him, as “Blue Hoodie Guy”.

    steveg (e81d76)

  22. I’m not sure what gets protested.

    That’s the thing about these crazy times, though: there doesn’t have to be rhyme or reason to a protest; seething political anger these days is simply considered righteous, no matter how tenuous the source of the complaint is.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  23. felipe (484255) — 11/19/2021 @ 11:17 am

    This should carry us right into Dana’s weekend thread

    There are other things I want to say there.

    The benefits cliff. They can grandfather people in.

    Government programs pushing up costs in medical care, education child care and housing, both by subsidizing it and by regulating it. I saw an op-ed piece about that, but the writer didn’t actually have any solution as to how to design that well.

    By what it’s doing the government of China is only making the cover-up of what happened to that tennis star more obvious.

    The Alec Baldwin shooting:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/movies/rust-lawsuit-mamie-mitchell.html

    … A lawyer for the movie’s armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, said that Ms. Gutierrez-Reed had loaded the revolver with what she believed to have been dummy rounds, which do not contain gunpowder and cannot be fired….Ms. Gutierrez-Reed’s lawyer, Jason Bowles, has said that his client noticed that day the gun was left unattended for several minutes after she had asked other crew members to watch the firearms and ammunition….Previously lawyers for Ms. Gutierrez-Reed said that she had been hired to two positions on the film, “which made it extremely difficult to focus on her job as an armorer.”

    I don’t think the key point that live ammunition got into the gun was that afternoon. People had used and some ammunition replaced with the wrong ammunition so that she wouldn’t know that the gun had been “borrowed” and used for plinking

    The Belarus-EU confrontation is ending. Belarus caved. Why can’t that happen with more just causes?

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  24. I pretty sure there will be protests today and the rioters amongst them will test the National Guard and Law Enforcement.

    If you were the mayor of Kenosha or the governor of Wisconsin, would you impose and have the guts to enforce an evening curfew tonight and maybe tomorrow night too?

    JVW (ee64e4)

  25. Hey Sammy, my bad: I should have said that this is an open thread just about Rittenhouse-related matters. Dana will almost surely put up a weekend open thread later. Please save the other topics for that. I will change the wording in my post.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  26. steveg (e81d76) — 11/19/2021 @ 11:31 am

    One thing the trial did bring out for me was to learn that everyone Rittenhouse shot or shot at were convicted criminals.

    Who else would take a job as a professional rioter? I don’t think that angle has been investigated.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  27. I did not learn those things from the trial but in the information swirl outside, that the trial inside creates

    steveg (e81d76)

  28. how long before we know every juror’s home address, race, kids’ names, and favorite flavor of ice cream?

    JF (e1156d)

  29. How long before the kid’s mom gets over her feelings of relief and puts him over her knee and lays a belt on his behind till he can’t sit down for a week?

    nk (1d9030)

  30. It’s currently 38º F in Kenosha, with an evening temperature of 34º F forecast. Maybe the bad guys won’t want to play on a cold evening.

    Then again, maybe that’ll just encourage them to set more fires, to keep warm. 🙁

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  31. “If you were the mayor of Kenosha or the governor of Wisconsin, would you impose and have the guts to enforce an evening curfew tonight and maybe tomorrow night too?”

    JVW.

    Well, if I was Mayor of Governor, God that is a horrible thing to even think about… (does he think I’m a craven sellout?) Let me regain my composure here…

    I would tell everyone who wants to protest to do so before curfew in designated places and there will be zero tolerance for destructive acts or attacks on police.

    It could go sideways, but you can’t always control things and you sometimes have to take the LOSS

    steveg (e81d76)

  32. How long before the kid’s mom gets over her feelings of relief and puts him over her knee and lays a belt on his behind till he can’t sit down for a week?

    Kyle Rittenhouse as an armed Dennis the Menace.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  33. I would tell everyone who wants to protest to do so before curfew in designated places and there will be zero tolerance for destructive acts or attacks on police.

    But you would have to keep the cops and National Guard on the streets all night, wouldn’t you? No way you let any of them stand down until daylight tomorrow.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  34. I wonder what’s going on in the minds of people who thought KR traveled across state lines with a gun to shoot black people innocently protesting at a rally. Are any of them processing the degree to which they were lied to by their media outlets?

    frosty (f27e97)

  35. 29, she’s more of a fellow traveler of kook than the son, I highly doubt that he’d be spanked for his transgressions, now they’ll be looking to play the PWT equivalent of the ghetto lottery.

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  36. 22, sadly it might provide the wispiest of “cover” for smash and grab looting down Chicago way, but our FOP chief had to rattle the cage by reminding Chicagoans about the Ctrial up north.

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  37. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    One thing the trial did bring out for me was to learn that everyone Rittenhouse shot or shot at were convicted criminals.

    Who else would take a job as a professional rioter? I don’t think that angle has been investigated.

    Joseph Rosenbaum was a convicted sex offender and mentally ill person who had just been released from treatment following a suicide attempt.

    1 – If Mr Rosenbaum had been kept in prison, he wouldn’t have attacked Kyle Rittenhouse, and that would not have drawn Anthony Huber and Gaige Grosskreutz to try to chase down Mr Rittenhouse. The state which released Mr Rosenbaum should be held responsible for the entire problem.
    2 – If Mr Rosenbaum had been kept in the psych ward following his suicide attempt, he wouldn’t have attacked Mr Rittenhouse, and that would not have drawn Messrs Huber and Grosskreutz to try to chase down Mr Rittenhouse. The health care professionals who released Mr Rosenbaum should be held responsible for the entire problem.
    3 – If the city, county, and state had cracked down on the Mostly Peaceful Protesters™ on the first two days of the Kenosha “Fiery but Mostly Peaceful Protests™”, there’d have been no third day of riots, and Mr Rittenhouse would not have been on the scene. The city, county, and state should be held responsible.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  38. Federal civil rights trial, because, of course, Kyle Rittenhouse abridged Joseph Rosenbaum’s civil right to try to kick his butt, because Mr Rittenhouse abridged Anthony Huber’s right to beat him over the head with a skateboard, and because Mr Rittenhouse abridged Gaige Grosskreutz’s right to point a gun at his head.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  39. IANAL, but as I watched the trial, it was clear that the prosecutors were buffoons who tried to screw the defense with the drone video. While I am not a lawyer, I know my way around IT matters enough to know the stories they wove about their handling of the drone video were BS.

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  40. Gavin Newsom
    @GavinNewsom
    America today: you can break the law, carry around weapons built for a military, shoot and kill people, and get away with it.

    That’s the message we’ve just sent to armed vigilantes across the nation

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1461769436952551425

    There is that vigilante word again. I wonder if he has been reading some of the uninformed takes from the comment section here.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  41. I think this has been played out. I was in Compton while the federal Rodney King jury was deliberating, and while I had some reservations I was not particularly worried that there would be an explosion even if it came back not guilty (and also my hosts would make sure I’d be OK if I was wrong).

    But there’s a point past which nobody cares enough.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  42. The jury has spoken. The politicians should shut up.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  43. I understand Biden has taken the “jury has spoken” approach. Thank goodness.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  44. Expect ‘wrongful death’ civil suits against Rittenhouse from estates of the deceased.

    Biden issues official statement from WH, expressing “anger and concern” over Rittenhouse verdict.
    Then goes to literally pardon two turkeys. Is a Biden ‘colonoscopy’ WH language for another brain surgery?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  45. AJ_L has it about right (@14). Rittenhouse (a 17yo boy, it should be noted) had no business being where he was. Had he been unarmed, he might not have been there, or been more circumspect.

    But he was not the only one armed, and he did not start any confrontation. Most of the time in question, he was trying to get away from a mob and only fired at those who pose3d a clear & present danger of great bodily harm.

    Conclusion: Not guilty of a crime. Guilty of stupidity and poor judgement and lucky that the normal capital sentence for stupidity and poor judgement was not applied.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. Appalled- not quite. ‘Anger and concern’ colors it w/spin.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. Biden issues official statement from WH, expressing “anger and concern” over Rittenhouse verdict.

    What is his basis for anger? Why do so many people see this (and not just on the Left) as a trial about race or politics? He was charged with murder and attempted murder. There was no evidence. The jury said he was not guilty. The process worked. Why the anger?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. #46–

    Premature info from HotAir, alas. Biden never fails to disappoint.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  49. Here:

    While the verdict in Kenosha will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included, we must acknowledge that the jury has spoken. I ran on a promise to bring Americans together, because I believe that what unites us is far greater than what divides us. I know that we’re not going to heal our country’s wounds overnight, but I remain steadfast in my commitment to do everything in my power to ensure that every American is treated equally, with fairness and dignity, under the law.

    I urge everyone to express their views peacefully, consistent with the rule of law. Violence and destruction of property have no place in our democracy. The White House and Federal authorities have been in contact with Governor Evers’s office to prepare for any outcome in this case, and I have spoken with the Governor this afternoon and offered support and any assistance needed to ensure public safety.

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/11/19/statement-by-president-biden/

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  50. @47. Kevin- That’s a good question to ask him directly, not Jen Psaki, if he ever has a presser given his comments in 2020 linking KR to ‘white supremacy.’ OTOH, it fits w/t ‘somebody else is running the show there’ theme [Susan Rice. et. al.]

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  51. @GavinNewsom
    America today: you can break the law, carry around weapons built for a military, shoot and kill people, and get away with it.

    That’s the message we’ve just sent to armed vigilantes across the nation

    There is no military in the world that uses semi-automatic rifles. No law was broken. There was no “vigilante” since vigilantism is founded on retribution for crimes, not their prevention.

    And for a man who walks within a circle of guards who ARE carrying automatic weapons to say this about a child who defended himself from attack is beyond reproach.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  52. Premature info from HotAir, alas. Biden never fails to disappoint.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 11/19/2021 @ 12:47 pm

    Neither does Hot Air.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  53. Biden never fails to disappoint.

    And today he pardons Peanut Butter and Jelly. The turkeys, not the sandwich. That is, assuming he can tell the difference.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  54. Had they found Rittenhouse guilty of homicide, with such weak evidence and such a poor job by the DA, I would have been angry and concerned since it would mean that courts no longer try facts but simply respond to the local mood.

    This is exactly the kind of thing that gets you Scottsboro Boys.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  55. That is, assuming he can tell the difference.

    One is brown, one isn’t.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. I would have been angry and concerned since it would mean that courts no longer try facts but simply respond to the local mood.

    Scroll through here:

    https://twitter.com/julie_kelly2

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  57. BuDuh —

    Thanks. If Biden hadn’t said “While the verdict in Kenosha will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included”, his message would have been fine.

    Frankly, a lot of the “anger and concern” is the result of misinformation. I thought, until the trial that (i) the gun was hauled from out of state (ii) Rittenhouse had no real connection to Kinosha and (iii) one or more of the people killed were black. None of those statements were true.

    I do a decent job of keeping up with the news — better than 95% of the country. If I am that far off, based on the news I consume — there are going to be a lot of people who are surprised.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  58. Then goes to literally pardon two turkeys. Is a Biden ‘colonoscopy’ WH language for another brain surgery?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 11/19/2021 @ 12:41 pm

    Honestly, I didn’t know they gave colonoscopies to people that old.

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  59. Makes you wonder what else the media is lying about.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  60. @GavinNewsom
    America today: you can break the law,

    Sorry Gavin, but that’s not the way it works here in the US. A jury of his peers decided Rittenhouse did not break the law.

    Spend more time cleaning up your homeless tent cities and maybe take a law class or two. Lay off Twitter for a while.

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  61. The outgoing Mayor of NYC just libeled Mr. Rittenhouse. Hope someone is saving these tweets to make Kyle a rich man.

    NJRob (f4c46f)

  62. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 11/19/2021 @ 12:51 pm

    today he pardons Peanut Butter and Jelly. The turkeys, not the sandwich.

    He couldn’t do it at the time it was scheduled. He was in the hospital for a test/cure (it’s both) Maybe they kept it secret for national security reasons.

    It would be interesting to find out if they still did a ceremony. Maybe Kamala Harris did it, but probably not or that would be the headline. It’s all a joke anyway, which has been going on since JFK, although Harry Truman also did it one year. Obama hated it.

    I heard some broadcast which claimed it had been going on for 180 years.(!!) That’s before there was a regular Thanksgiving in November with turkeys. The media gets more and more inaccurate with time

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  63. Hoi Polloi (ade50d) — 11/19/2021 @ 12:59 pm

    I didn’t know they gave colonoscopies to people that old.

    They do, although me and my father discussed that and decided then that he didn’t want another operation.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  64. Kyle Rittenhouse is a public figure. People need to be free to talk and also he is in a position to defend himslf and people don’t derive their pinon of ho from what public officials say.

    But this is bad.

    I wasn’t Kyle Rittenhouse who called someone a word that Mark Twain used it in the book Huckleberry Finn. It was Joseph Rosenbaum who used it on Kyle.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  65. Disturbing things going on in comments!

    “How long before the kid’s mom gets over her feelings of relief and puts him over her knee and lays a belt on his behind till he can’t sit down for a week?”

    The erratic and disturbing nk just can’t stop indulging in sadomasochistic eroticism to justify his cowardly and immoral reasoning; he must obviously share a fetish or two with Rosenbaum. Block his posts until he can calm down and post things that don’t horrify and disgust people with non-diseased moral reasoning.

    “now they’ll be looking to play the PWT equivalent of the ghetto lottery.

    Assuming that stands for ‘poor white trash’. urbanleftbehind is taking out his frustrations over the righteous verdict by being extremely racist. Block his posts too until he’s cleaned out his mouth and his head. I would suggest listening to soothing and inclusive music in the meantime to detox, such as “I am A Real American”, or “Keep Your Rifle By your Side.”

    “Rittenhouse (a 17yo boy, it should be noted) had no business being where he was.”

    He was literally doing an unofficial security guard work-experience internship (going with his lifeguard and police/fire rescue training with the promise of later payment. If he can patrol Kandahar, he can patrol Kenosha. (And in both locations the worst people you can run into…are JAG officers like David French.)

    Arcmine Excellenti (989744)

  66. There was no “vigilante” since vigilantism is founded on retribution for crimes, not their prevention.

    Not quite: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vigilante

    vigilante

    noun
    vig·​i·​lan·​te | \ ˌvi-jə-ˈlan-tē \

    Definition of vigilante:
    a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate); broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. @62. He did it, Sammy. It’s the optics of it all.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  68. How long before the kid’s mom gets over her feelings of relief and puts him over her knee and lays a belt on his behind till he can’t sit down for a week?

    The day the civil lawsuits iare filed.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  69. Sammy,

    Re the post by our resident ghost in another thread that you claimed “sounded Iranian”:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/doj-indicts-2-iranians-pretended-proud-boys-2020-election-interference-2021-11

    urbanleftbehind (c2e573)

  70. Mayor Bill de Blasio
    @NYCMayor
    ·
    3h
    Anthony Huber and Joseph Rosenbaum are victims. They should be alive today.

    The only reason they’re not is because a violent, dangerous man chose to take a gun across state lines and start shooting people.

    To call this a miscarriage of justice is an understatement.

    Here is DeBlasio’s libelous remarks.

    NJRob (fc23d5)

  71. Jacob Blakes family held a press conference with family members holding a poster with pictures of Grosskreutz, Huber and Rosenbaum dressed like Superman and the slogan
    “Selfless Superheroes” on it.

    Those are some deep discount superheroes. (1) Child Molester, (1) 28 year old skateboarder/convicted for use of a deadly weapon, (1) Lengthy record includes possessing firearm under infuence and was illegaly carrying concealed that night in Kenosha. Quite a trifecta.
    I’m sure the welcome ceremony at the gates of heaven was appropriate to the magnitude of their martyrdom

    steveg (e81d76)

  72. 1. Teenaged boy makes some really stupid decisions.
    2. Two people are shot to death and another is wounded.

    In the end, that’s what the jury had to work with.

    I’m reminded of the saying, “A jury is a body of twelve people who are assembled to select the better lawyer.”

    John B Boddie (9f8361)

  73. @72 someone didn’t watch the trial

    JF (e1156d)

  74. 1. Teenaged boy makes some really stupid decisions.
    2. Two people are shot to death and another is wounded.

    That’s kind of like writing (1) man and woman meet at a bar, (2) a baby is born nine months later. It may be true, but it sure is missing an awful lot of information on what happened in between.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  75. ‘I didn’t know they gave colonoscopies to people that old.’

    Call it a ‘Camilla Parker Bowles’ movement, given his experience w/her– and the poop surrounding the Pope. Something is up, there. No pun intended. Though in Biden circles it’s known as brain surgery, anyway.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  76. Someone who agrees with Boddie’s assessment:

    https://twitter.com/KyleHooten2/status/1461781383328718855

    What a well versed group.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  77. BuDuh (4a7846) — 11/19/2021 @ 1:00 pm

    Makes you wonder what else the media is lying about.

    It’s much easier to list the things they’re telling you the truth about. If someone on the news tells me the date I double check.

    frosty (f27e97)

  78. In the 2020 presidential election, residents in Kenosha County gave 44,972 votes (50.68%) of their votes to President Trump and 42,193 (47.55%) to the doofus from Delaware. Not exactly a hotbed or evil reich wingers, but a pretty middle-ground county.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  79. https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/kyle-rittenhouse-open-carry-and-the

    David French is upset that people like Kyle Rittenhouse have the right to open carry a rifle.
    Actually he is upset that anyone can open carry a rifle.
    So why are pistols generally illegal to conceal without a permit in 42 states?
    Why are long guns able to be open carried in 44 states?

    French seems to be arguing that open carry of long guns is intimidating and intimidation is unreasonable behavior. Self defense is intimidating, and its not unreasonable. What seems unreasonable to me would be if I can’t carry the legal weapon of my choice in a legal fashion. If I have a legal right to bear the arm, I should have a right to carry it in a legal useful manner.

    French comes off like a guy who thinks everyone should act like members of his gun and pheasant club, who get together to shoot their $10,000 shotguns, then retire to the lounge to smoke cigars and drink expensive liquor. Another “intellectual elite” intent on running the US like a giant HOA.
    If someone wants to ride their bike up the mountain to the local gun range with rifle slung on their back they should be able to

    steveg (e81d76)

  80. Mr Finkelman wrote:

    Kyle Rittenhouse is a public figure.

    He is? He’s a teenaged boy, who ran for no office, and who did not try to thrust himself into the public eye. He became widely known for defending himself from the attack of three previously convicted criminals, because the media chose to make him one. He’s no more a public figure than Nick Sandmann, with whom The Washington Post and CNN settled.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  81. Rittenhouse made excellent shooting decisions.
    He’d shot two attackers dead, and then wounded the third in a way that neutralized the threat, then Rittenhouse dropped his muzzle, got up and retreated again.

    If faced with the same circumstance, me on my butt in the street with potential attackers all around, I might have doubled up Grosskreutz before dropping my muzzle.

    steveg (e81d76)

  82. @74 – You’re correct. The question of causality is central in both examples.

    John B Boddie (9f8361)

  83. Not in our reality, but I’d pick Mark Richards for Time Man of the Year:

    https://www.insider.com/kyle-rittenhouses-defense-lawyer-lin-wood-cause-2021-11

    urbanleftbehind (c2e573)

  84. It’s amazing to me (but not shocking) that so many on the left are under the notion that Rittenhouse crossed state lines with the gun. That rumor was put to rest a long time ago.

    To me, it’s an automatic disqualifier. If I read that, I stop. Because that means that person is dealing in disinformation.

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  85. Maybe this will help the people who have not paid any attention:

    The Media’s Verdict on Kyle Rittenhouse
    Why so many got this story so wrong.

    https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/the-medias-verdict-on-kyle-rittenhouse

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  86. I’ve made this comparison before: this was George Zimmerman 2.0. At least in Mr Zimmerman’s case, the local law enforcement officials knew that there was no case, but cowards politically astute officials in the state government knew that there had to be a trial, so a special persecutor was appointed.

    Thus, Mr Zimmerman was brought to trial, but the prosecution’s case fell apart with their witness, Rachel Jeantel, with whom Trayvon Martin was speaking on the phone just before he attacked Mr Zimmerman, was an absolute idiot, as well as a liar.

    In the case at hand, the prosecution put Gaige Grosskreutz on the stand, and they didn’t know what he was going to say! It turned out that he testified to the most important thing: he had pointed a gun at Mr Rittenhouse’s head.

    The prosecution knew that the evidence was against them, but they feared simply dismissing the case, due to the politics. So they proceeded, and the accounts of their f(ouling) up are legion, but, realistically speaking, they f(ouled) up because they didn’t have anything. I guess that it’s better to have tried and lost.

    Heck, even the New York Jets show up to play their games!

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  87. Hope he sues the demented old fool, Joe effing Biden.

    mg (8cbc69)

  88. And Joy Reid and MSNBC.

    mg (8cbc69)

  89. There’s been bad behavior on both sides. I don’t know who’s more pathetic. Supposed adults who demonize a stupid 17-year old who put himself in a stupid situation and escaped by the Grace of God and the skin of his teeth, or the supposed adults who hero-worship him. Well as long as they don’t break out in a chorus of

    Teeny bopper, my teenage shooter!
    You’re such a groove, won’t you please move,
    From Kenosha, to here, with me,
    In Mendocino?

    nk (1d9030)

  90. Do liberals and BLM object to this verdict because they want all protests — even those with riots — to be treated as untouchable free speech zones? Or is it more/also about the guns and conservative white males?

    DRJ (03cb91)

  91. Hi DRJ
    I think the major issue is they feel rioting, burning, looting should be treated as speech with an additional opportunity in this case to go against guns and a white male.

    If so, might then open carrying a firearm should also be 1A and 2A speech? “Don’t start none, won’t be none”

    steveg (e81d76)

  92. “So they proceeded, and the accounts of their f(ouling) up are legion, but, realistically speaking, they f(ouled) up because they didn’t have anything. I guess that it’s better to have tried and lost.

    It absolutely isn’t. That’s not evidence of ‘doing your best’, that’s evidence of being a morally bankrupt reprobate who shouldn’t be anywhere near the discretionary powers of a public prosecutor.

    Any narrative that exonerates the prosecution or treats their informed decision to go along with the corrupt railroading of an innocent man rather than standing up to the mob is reckless endangerment of the rest of us. There must be consequences for crossing the traditional state lines on self-defense to kill and injure law-abiding citizens.

    The seven women on the jury (why is an entire sex that generally never has social expectation to defend themselves or others physically in their entire lives allowed to serve on self-defense cases?) could just as well have fallen for the prosecutor and the media’s constant wheedling and cajoling, so much like that seen here, that WELL HE SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN THERE ANYWAY and HE MUST BE GUILTY OF SOMETHING?

    As his lawyer said, this is not a game, and you don’t get forgiven for dirty plays once it’s over only to do them again next time.

    Mask Vita (5659d7)

  93. “There’s been bad behavior on both sides.”

    Stop right there, drop the tired line, and turn around. YOU AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, FULL STOP. Nothing on the pro-Kyle side is all that bad, all of the most determinedly and egregiously stupid, violent, and ignorant stuff has been said by people on your side, which you honestly should expect when you align yourself with criminals, abusers, pedophiles, and the people who staff and run the systems that cycle them on and off the streets to continually harm innocent people like Kyle and many others.

    Hey look, here’s Impeachment Nadler chiming in with that standard pack-of-lies line just in time!

    “Rep. Nadler
    @RepJerryNadler
    ·
    6h
    This heartbreaking verdict is a miscarriage of justice and sets a dangerous precedent which justifies federal review by DOJ. Justice cannot tolerate armed persons crossing state lines looking for trouble while people engage in First Amendment-protected protest.”

    “I don’t know who’s more pathetic.”

    If you don’t have a strong enough moral framework to judge, why should we be listening to you?

    “Supposed adults who demonize a stupid 17-year old who put himself in a stupid situation and escaped by the Grace of God and the skin of his teeth,”

    Nothing is stupid about protecting your community. Reckless or tactically ill-advised in certain moments, maybe!

    People who haven’t committed to the creed of “avoiding danger is the highest good, therefore avoid all social interactions with people you don’t know at all times” can instantly empathize with how difficult some things are to do under pressure, especially when intimidation fails and you have to take split-second lethal action.

    “or the supposed adults who hero-worship him.”

    That there weren’t nearly enough adults in the city to help shames everyone. Those who praise him do so as part of a recognition of their own incapacity to act so boldly and successfully!

    You don’t often get the opportunity to see such a perfect demonstration of the need or execution of justified self-defense, and it absolutely demands acknowledgement and a permanent record in American history when it happens! His conduct before, during, and after the situation was, in fact, exemplary, showing the highest level of physical and tactical discipline, which prevailed facing deadly odds against both the criminal class your type encourages and feeds off of and their leftist lawyers who hate and fear anyone with the gall to act boldly in defense of their own lives!

    To fail to praise such a complete victory against such State-anic forces is to sin against the American and libertarian spirit!

    Mask Vita (14918b)

  94. ESPN has a confused rambling piece as a headline. They are almost suggesting that convicting Rittenhouse would have been justice for Blake….while painting Rittenhouse as a gun-toting loon….but not saying the same about the rioters. Stopped at MSNBC while on the stairclimber and made it only 28sec (at MSNBC, longer on the climber)….there was just too much crap. Our country is just getting dumber and dumber. I fear we need an EMP to wipe out all electronics to force us to get back to basic civility.

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f)

  95. Do liberals and BLM object to this verdict because they want all protests — even those with riots — to be treated as untouchable free speech zones? Or is it more/also about the guns and conservative white males?

    DRJ (03cb91) — 11/19/2021 @ 4:25 pm

    They want the freedom to do whatever they want without repercussions, while their opponents remain hamstrung by the laws that the former gleefully ignore, with the blessing of the mass media and its celebrity/athlete mouthpieces, universities, and government institutions. That’s why these “defund the poleece!” hammerheads immediately run crying to the cops when their antics result in a broken face.

    That’s really all it boils down to. That’s why they’re so butt-blasted about Kyle being acquitted–it means they might suffer real, actual consequences for being exceptional individuals and their opponents will be justified for doing so.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  96. In the case at hand, the prosecution put Gaige Grosskreutz on the stand, and they didn’t know what he was going to say! It turned out that he testified to the most important thing: he had pointed a gun at Mr Rittenhouse’s head.

    It’s actually a miracle that a serial liar like Grosskreutz ended up telling the truth while he was on the stand. Maybe he was afraid of getting smacked with perjury when the jury viewed the videos.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  97. Not in our reality, but I’d pick Mark Richards for Time Man of the Year:

    I don’t know about that. Kyle’s walking today due primarily to the broad video evidence and the prosecution committing own-goal after own-goal after own-goal (not to mention MSNBC committing a borderline felony), not necessarily what the defense did. If I’m being charitable, they did just enough to get him over the line, and they are VERY lucky this whole thing was being streamed live.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  98. Megan McArdle gets it just right — as she usually does.

    No doubt Jeffries, Pressley and their many fellow travelers still believe the criminal justice system is too harsh. They’re just willing to make exception for certain people. You know, the kind with “an intense affinity for guns, law enforcement and President Trump.” Belatedly, the left has discovered its counterweight to the “compassionate conservatism” of George W. Bush: pitiless progressivism.
    . . .
    Handed a chance to make the system better, the left threw it away and reached for easy outrage and tribal affinities. Instead of changing minds, they merely changed sides.

    Our enemies love to see this tribalism — and far too many Americans are willing to please “Czar” Putin, “Emperor” Xi, and the rest, by indulging in it.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  99. #86 – you wrote in part:

    I’ve made this comparison before: this was George Zimmerman 2.0. At least in Mr Zimmerman’s case, the local law enforcement officials knew that there was no case, but cowards politically astute officials in the state government knew that there had to be a trial, so a special persecutor was appointed.

    Thus, Mr Zimmerman was brought to trial, but the prosecution’s case fell apart with their witness, Rachel Jeantel, with whom Trayvon Martin was speaking on the phone just before he attacked Mr Zimmerman, was an absolute idiot, as well as a liar.
    * * *
    ———————–

    I concur that there are several parallels between the two cases, regarding the Far Left/Dem party pushing false narratives. Recall, the racist, ridiculous and broad & incessant false claim that George Zimmerman was ‘white Hispanic’ (whatever that is/means) – to simply to enrage/inflame the uninformed. (Also true, re the false claim that Michael Brown was on his knees exclaiming “Hands Up! Don’t Shoot! – when he was shot in Ferguson, MO.)

    You are correct that Rachel Jeantel was a liar, but incorrect that she was speaking with Martin just before the attack. In fact Martin did not know her and NEVER spoke with her.

    Jeantel was conjured up by attorney Benjamin Crump (with help from Martin’s mother Sybrina Fulton and others), when her half-sister Brittany Diamond Eugene refused to testify. Crump publicly stated (on tape) that “We pushed her” re Jeantel. Suborning perjury?

    See the book/movie THE TRAYVON HOAX: Unmasking the Witness Fraud that Divided America – https://www.thetrayvonhoax.com/

    and
    https://dailycaller.com/2019/12/04/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-100-million-fraud-diamond-rachel/

    Clearly, Zimmerman’s civil rights were manifestly violated. Recall that Zimmerman has sued Crump, Fulton and many others. Here is a link to the case Zimmerman v. Futon, et. al. – https://unicourt.com/case/fl-lec-zimmerman-george-vs-fulton-sybrina-225293

    Liberty & Truth require constant vigilance. GLZ.

    Gary L. Zerman (a1521c)

  100. Looks like they’re STILL trying to weasel out of saying “I was wrong”:

    “I fear we need an EMP to wipe out all electronics to force us to get back to basic civility.”

    Oh NOW you don’t want to see what the TV’s telling you? Absolutely not, you need your abject failure to railroad an innocent man broadcast at you 24-7 now!

    AJ, Are you blaming the electronics for forcing you to repeat the same dumb lines about how “Kyle isn’t guilty…but we have to do SOMETHING!!!” that literally every lazy liberal who watches MSNBC started repeating ad nauseam?


    Your electronics aren’t forcing you to embarrass yourself, it’s your terrible social relationship with them.
    Realize first that the mass media has been an enemy of the people since the founding, who will always lie if they can get the chance, and maybe you’ll actually take some correction the first time a real person smacks you down rather than requiring it multiple times.

    The great Progressive Project is ultimately going nowhere, not worthy of your time, and in any case anyone with half an ounce of sense can see immediately when you’re trying to push a progressive line into a normal conversation like you’ve been doing shamelessly for the past 3 days. You have lost, you have shown your hand and had it come up wanting, and it’s now time to perform the mandatory penalty:

    There are only two sentences any of you weasels need to say regarding Kyle and his case in the future:

    “When a society celebrates Antifa looters, arsonists, and pedophiles as heroes, while turning brave people like Kyle Rittenhouse into villains, it is a society that is not long for this world.

    We need to be a country where heroes like Kyle Rittenhouse can thrive, not where they are destroyed to gratify a mentally ill, malicious mob and a mentally ill, malicious media.”

    Those exact words, those words only, no additions, subtractions, or interpolations. With your liberal AND your conservative friends.

    Penalty Encforcer (7ee4e0)

  101. GLZ @99. I think that you and Dana from the State where the grass is blue even though peyote is illegal disagree on the superficial differences. The essentials are the same:
    — Pudgeballs
    — Wannabes
    — Not much in the way of brains or brawn
    — Violent situation
    — Guns
    — Lawyers
    — Due Process
    — Acquittal
    Now let’s make a sentence: Two pudgeball wannabes with not much in the way of brains or brawn put themselves in a violent situation but guns, lawyers, and due process saved their chubby little white trash asses.

    nk (1d9030)

  102. chubby little white trash asses.

    nk (1d9030) — 11/19/2021 @ 9:04 pm

    That’s a stretch with Florida’s pride and joy. If he wandered into a France with a Premier Zenmour or LePen, or got deep into Poland or Hungary he’d be clipped on sight.

    urbanleftbehind (c073c9)

  103. 94- AJ
    We were a better people when the newspaper was delivered first thing in the morning. I would love to go back to the party phone line. And reading encyclopedias.

    mg (8cbc69)

  104. mg (8cbc69) — 11/20/2021 @ 3:02 am

    Having been alive for that; I’m not sure we were a “better” people. I’m not sure that, on the whole, we are much different.

    The smartphone and social media have just allowed a small minority to weaponize their insanity. I still have hope that the bulk of us, if given the time, will be able to adjust and develop appropriate defense mechanisms.

    That being said, I’m still surprised at how easy it is for the media to fabricate mass hysteria and for very vocal groups to live in alternate realities. I’m hoping we develop those defenses soon. I really don’t want to go back to encyclopedias.

    frosty (f27e97)

  105. mg wrote:

    We were a better people when the newspaper was delivered first thing in the morning.

    As someone who’s about ¾ deaf, I absotively, posilutely agree. I’m old school: I have to read the news rather than watch it on television, because, even with closed captions — and closed captioning is far from perfect — I miss things; when I read, I don’t.

    Reading the news means that people both get more in-depth coverage, and have a chance to reread something if they aren’t certain that they caught it clearly. Television is a visually based medium, it has to be structured for visual interest, and no, you can’t always believe your lying eyes, because the video gets edited.

    That’s one of the reasons that, on my poor site, I like to use newspapers as my sources. Not only are the sources generally more in depth, but since they are known to be slanted-to-the-left media sources, I avoid any complaints, from either of my two regular readers, that I am using an evil reich wing source. More, I can easily spot anything slanted, and I point it out.

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514)

  106. It will be interesting to see whether this encourages increased armed confrontation….or whether the entire ordeal gives individuals a second thought.

    AJ_Liberty (3cb02f)

  107. Do liberals and BLM object to this verdict because they want all protests — even those with riots — to be treated as untouchable free speech zones? Or is it more/also about the guns and conservative white males?
    DRJ (03cb91) — 11/19/2021 @ 4:25 pm

    Yes. The guns are just icing for their cake.

    felipe (484255)

  108. As someone who’s about ¾ deaf, I absotively, posilutely agree. I’m old school: I have to read the news rather than watch it on television, because, even with closed captions — and closed captioning is far from perfect — I miss things; when I read, I don’t. – The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (338514) — 11/20/2021 @ 4:34 am

    I am in the same boat, brother. Although since my mind is going, I can’t say I miss things as I read them…

    felipe (484255)

  109. I can’t say I [don’t] miss things as I read them…
    felipe (484255) — 11/20/2021 @ 6:11 am

    Ha! Aaand as I write them…

    felipe (484255)

  110. Oh, I dunno AJ_Liberty. Gaige Grosskreutz had a gun in his hand, at point blank range, against somebody whom he had just seen kill two people, and he could not bring himself to pull the trigger. Letting himself get shot instead. Not everybody has it in him to be a killer, no matter how easy a gun makes it, and most people are fortunate enough to go through life without ever finding out. Whether they’re killers. Both the ones with guns and fantasies and the ones without.

    nk (1d9030)

  111. For those over 80, theme song.

    …and he could not bring himself to pull the trigger. Letting himself get shot instead. Not everybody has it in him to be a killer, no matter how easy a gun makes it,… – nk (1d9030) — 11/20/2021 @ 6:20 am

    Oh. I’d put money on the safety being engaged on his pistol – divine intervention?

    felipe (484255)

  112. Glocks don’t have a manual safety. The so-called “safety” is on the face of the trigger. As you squeeze the trigger, the whatsis is depressed unlocking the trigger and allowing it to function. He might not have had a cartridge chambered, okay, but did he rack the slide either?

    nk (1d9030)

  113. GG was not part of a well regulated militia, you see….

    felipe (484255)

  114. “the whatsis is depressed unlocking the trigger ”

    Ha! You so funny!

    felipe (484255)

  115. AJ_Liberty (3cb02f) — 11/20/2021 @ 5:18 am

    .or whether the entire ordeal gives individuals a second thought.

    Hopefully it results in fewer and less violent riots.

    frosty (f27e97)

  116. The real safety is the five and half pound trigger pull like the double action revolvers. (Yeah, and internal firing pin disconnects and blocks for the butterfingers, but DA revolvers have those too, so shaddap!)

    nk (1d9030)

  117. You are a treasure, man!

    felipe (484255)

  118. The so-called “safety” safety

    FIFY

    He might not have had a cartridge chambered, okay, but did he rack the slide either?

    And now we’re in fantasy land. None of this matters. Why are you trying to halo GG?

    frosty (f27e97)

  119. That’s right, none of this matters as far as the verdict was concerned. All the kid needed was a reasonable belief that he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm from Grosskreutz, and I agree with the jury that he did.

    As for the rest, it’s just like my opinion, man, and I have no interest in debating either our respective firearms expert credentials or our respective views of human nature.

    nk (1d9030)

  120. Kyle Rittenhouse is a public figure. People need to be free to talk and also he is in a position to defend himslf and people don’t derive their pinon of ho from what public officials say.

    I would like to see an exception to the freely-libel rules that held public officials to a higher standard for their comments. They have a responsibility to the public to be accurate in their comments and not to inflame public opinion with falsehoods or off-the-cuff nonsense.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  121. nk (1d9030) — 11/20/2021 @ 7:10 am

    our respective firearms expert credentials

    You’re saying you can get more technical than “whatsis”? I don’t believe it. You’re pulling my leg.

    frosty (f27e97)

  122. @66:
    There was no “vigilante” since vigilantism is founded on retribution for crimes, not their prevention.

    Vigilante
    Noun: a member of a vigilance committee. Any person who takes the law into his or her own hands, as by avenging a crime.
    Adjective: done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice.

    Self-defense, or the defense of others is not vigilantism. This was High Noon, not Death Wish.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  123. The day the civil lawsuits are filed.

    Wrongful death suits are about collecting money. What are they going to get from a 17yo boy? Since he was tried as an adult, and since there is no indication his parents did anything to further his activities, it is a tenuous argument that they are liable (assuming, of course, that Rittenhouse is liable).

    This would be a case of retribution rather than recovery. The lawyers for the plaintiff would have to be motivated by spite as they would not receive any payment eve3n if they win. They COULD conceivably incur liability for malicious prosecution.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  124. Here is DeBlasio’s libelous remarks.

    Rittenhouse is a public figure. To prove libel you’d have to show that the mayor’s remarks showed a reckless disregard of the facts and animus. Oh, wait….

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  125. David French is upset that people like Kyle Rittenhouse have the right to open carry a rifle.

    I think there is pretty strong agreement among those protesting this verdict that guns should be outlawed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  126. George Zimmerman 2.0

    But Zimmerman was Bernhard Goetz 2.0.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  127. And reading encyclopedias.

    You can get used encyclopedias VERY cheap these days.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  128. We were a better people when the newspaper was delivered first thing in the morning.

    We were more sure of our information, at least. Mainly because we had far less of it, with few conflicts. “A man with two watches never knows what time it is.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  129. “The essentials are the same:
    — Pudgeballs”

    Not by current-year standards, fathead.

    “Wannabes”

    The words of a sniveling coward. Both of them were by all accounts the bravest and most conscientious of their group, whether it be neighborhood watch or volunteer security, and had actually in the process of taking relevant training on their own volition!

    “Not much in the way of brains or brawn”

    THEY DEMONSTRATED MUCH MORE THAN YOU’VE EVER SHOWN IN YOUR POSTS, BINGERLOVER.

    “Violent situation”

    The word is surprise violent situation. Both had an immediate history just prior to that of handling sketchy people with restraint prior to getting attacked by a criminal opportunists whose prior history with the system you represent taught them they could get away with all sorts of criminal acts with impunity.

    “Guns”

    BIG, SCARY, GUNS! Did you mention ‘drugs’ on the part of the shot individuals either? Relevant in both cases!

    “Lawyers”

    Fortunately you weren’t one of them.

    “Due Process”

    HIGHLY DEBATABLE on that front, they both had to pay good seven-figure money to get something resembling it against the corrupt prosecutor’s office. Is this available to all Americans without the same level of media and alternative media attention?

    “Acquittal”

    And permanently marked by the evil left and its handmaidens on the ‘conservative’ side like you.

    “Now let’s make a sentence: Two pudgeball wannabes with not much in the way of brains or brawn put themselves in a violent situation but guns, lawyers, and due process saved their chubby little white trash asses.

    Nope, it’s a combination of outright lies, mischaracterizations, and self-serving redefinitions that would make Binger proud.

    I’ll make a sentence: NK should be permanently banished to the posting Phantom Zone for repeatedly and conclusively demonstrating a bottomless racial and class animus against innocent and virtuous Hispanic people who demonstrate the highest possible bravery in pursuit of the American dream against those corrupt institutions who make normal civic community impossible in practice.

    “As for the rest, it’s just like my opinion, man, and I have no interest in debating either our respective firearms expert credentials or our respective views of human nature.”

    And yet, you, the Binger acolyte, feel the need to inject that reprehensible opinion everywhere you get the chance, in every thread! You have the most severe case of NOT MAD I’ve ever seen!

    ReboNKer (745169)

  130. frosty (f27e97) — 11/20/2021 @ 8:42 am

    You shouldn’t have pissed off Time123. He would have been glad to fill the next five or six pages of comments with back and forth with you.

    nk (1d9030)

  131. I agree with nk that calling the safe action trigger a safety is basically wrong. There’s no function lever on Glocks. One reason is that is much easier to train on the simple platform, and if you’re under extreme stress, your fine motor skills are trashed. The Glock is basically tailored to the lowest common denominator.

    Also while Kyle is not wise or a hero,I am impressed with his skill under all that chaos. He didn’t spray bullets or keep using force on anyone who stopped being a threat. It’s far better than many professionals would do.

    I hope the young man doesn’t go the way of George Zimmerman.

    Dustin (a145cf)

  132. Dustin (a145cf) — 11/20/2021 @ 9:19 am

    Quite right on all counts, Dustin. I thought my “divine intervention” was a clue to the absurdity of “safety.” nk acquitted himself as he always does. I hope Kyle gets together with Sandmann at some point – there may be synergy to be harnessed.

    felipe (484255)

  133. frosty (f27e97) — 11/20/2021 @ 8:42 am

    You shouldn’t have pissed off Time123. He would have been glad to fill the next five or six pages of comments with back and forth with you.
    nk (1d9030) — 11/20/2021 @ 9:17 am

    Huh, I totally missed that.

    felipe (484255)

  134. Wow, this is dishonest even for NK:

    “he could not bring himself to pull the trigger.”

    An absolutely heinous lie about the actual situation and Gaige’s own words before, during and after the incident. NK just can’t stop lying about the criminals he seems hell-bent on rehabilitating and equalizing with the law-abiding!

    Gaige was a smarmy little weasel with considerable knowledge of the law based on his own previous prison experience and his designation as an ‘ACLU Legal Observer’, and he was faking surrender to get close enough for a point-blank shot that he could characterize as self-defense later on the stand, rather than simply dropping Kyle from a distance (which would have been justified had Kyle actually been displaying any signs of being an ‘active shooter’.) No, Gaige Grosskreutz’s intentions were hateful, premediated, murderous, and cold-blooded from the outset. No wonder that colluding antifa prosecutor failed to charge him or search his phone, as he did for everyone else!

    “Letting himself get shot instead. Not everybody has it in him to be a killer, no matter how easy a gun makes it,”

    Please. Gaige had been repeatedly involved with both the legal system and his local extreme leftists, and he was specifically aiming to kill Kyle in the midst of a scuffle and get away with it so that he could brag about killing a PROUD BOY FASCIST MILITIA MEMBER to lefty accolades and donations.

    “and most people are fortunate enough to go through life without ever finding out. Whether they’re killers. Both the ones with guns and fantasies and the ones without.”

    More brazen fake equivocation between the law-abiding and people who choose a lifetime involved in criminal burglaries, association with extremists, cold-blooded malice aforethought, and hilarious twitter rants from his still-active Twitter account @4DoorMoreWhorz (which he migrated to as soon as his @dawnpatrolmke account was found and mined for all the incriminating rants people could find) where he fantasizes about a TEN MILLION DOLLAR LAWSUIT PAYOFF from the city and Kyle doing 25 to life. Didn’t quite work out for him, did it?

    This is what we call a Haman-Mordecai situation, specifically where Haman has to lead Mordecai through the city on a donkey yelling ‘This is what is done for who the king delights to honor!’, and anyone asked what they would do in King Xerxes’ place would surely agree that this is proper Divine Justice for Satanic Hubris.

    Absolutely unsurprising that someone like nk, who never misses a chance to call good evil and evil good, is holding this grandma-beating thief and saboteur up as some kind of example for the rest of us, while getting continually grumpy and antagonistic about Kyle. Having done nothing good for people other than himself his entire life, how could nk fail to react to someone risking life and limb for others with spite and complaining?

    Dawn Patrl MDE (2b7f63)

  135. nk acquitted himself as he always does.

    Pedantically, felipe?

    Yeah, on further thought, I most seriously considered divine intervention. “Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.” Grosskreutz refrained from shooting and stayed alive.

    nk (1d9030)

  136. nk, whatever you did you this vpn troll’s mother, I hope you paid.

    Dustin (a145cf)

  137. nk (1d9030) — 11/20/2021 @ 5:45 pm

    Yes, you are right, nk.

    Dustin (a145cf) — 11/20/2021 @ 6:42 pm

    Teh crazy has landed, Dustin. I’ve got your six, nk, and Dustin has eyes on him.

    felipe (484255)

  138. He is mentally ill. He goes way back. Maybe fifteen years or so. When he was notorious not only here but also on (the then) Protein Wisdom and Ace of Spades that I know of. And he has been getting worse since. It may seem that he is fixated with me now, but he has had an unhealthy fixation for this site for a lot longer than that.

    nk (1d9030)

  139. https://twitter.com/TulsiGabbard/status/1462004154281259013

    Here’s your aloha sweetie JVW. Figured you’d appreciate it.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  140. Here’s your aloha sweetie JVW. Figured you’d appreciate it.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 11/20/2021 @ 8:35 pm

    Here’s the thing about the Surf Mommy–she’s actually far left, she’s just a LOT better at hiding her power level than her more exceptional colleagues like the Squad. She supported Jobber to the Stars Bernie Sanders during his 2016 run, and had resigned her DNC post when she found out that the party’s operatives were undermining his campaign. When the DNC chairmanship for 2017 came up, she endorsed Keith Ellison. She’s not a moderate in any sense, other than she made efforts to at least dialogue with Republicans like Trey Gowdy.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  141. nk (1d9030) — 11/20/2021 @ 5:45 pm

    Yeah, on further thought, I most seriously considered divine intervention. “Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.” Grosskreutz refrained from shooting and stayed alive.

    Your efforts to rehabilitate Grosskreutz’s image are laudable. A little more and you might be able to get him invited to the WH. You should start a campaign to get JB to give him the Medal of Freedom.

    frosty (f27e97)

  142. Some thoughts about all of this.

    1. It’s not Rittenhouse’s fault that it was not illegal for him to be holding that weapon at age 17. Nevertheless, it should have been illegal.

    2. The government should have the monopoly of force. Otherwise, we get situations like this. Again, not Rittenhouse’s fault. The Kenosha police/leadership let riots happen. With the results we have seen.

    3. The misinformation spread about this situation has been relentless. I assume, at this point, it is deliberate. I assume the left wants race riots and is mad they aren’t getting them. I think the folks who are making Rittenhouse a hero want the same thing.

    4. What Rittenhouse did was stupid and what the responsible adults who let him play property defender was stupid. This kid is going to have to live with killing people. Since he doesn’t appear to be a psychopath, that’s enough punishment. I wish him a happy obscurity.

    5. I don’t mourn the people Rittenhouse killed, and don’t think of them as victims. They decided to take advantage of a riot, and were killed. Tough. Don’t riot. We don’t need vigilantes or rioters. But if we have them, somebody stands a good chance of dying. Tough. Somebody might give the dead a Darwin Award.

    Appalled (7d21f9)

  143. Appalled (7d21f9) — 11/21/2021 @ 8:02 am

    Thank you very much for your thoughtful comments. I fully appreciate the points you make, especially the few with which I strongly disagree. disagreement is always an opportunity for not only the free-exchange of ideas, but the earnest search for the truth of the human condition, viewed through several lenses, so that opponents may gain gain a wider perspective of the world in which they hope to live in peace.

    1. It’s not Rittenhouse’s fault that it was not illegal for him to be holding that weapon at age 17. Nevertheless, it should have been illegal.

    I agree that KR was not at fault for the laws already in place. But since we have the right to bear arms, It should be no more illegal for a citizen to be armed than to be educated. My view is informed, of course, by my growing up around firearms; receiving training, proper to my age and temperament, by my parents. Not unlike Tiger woods being raised in golf culture, I was raised in gun culture.

    When a golfer slices a shot that results in private property damage, blame is not assigned to the club, but the wielder. This is not to overlook equipment failure due to workmanship or negligence (say, car accident). The same concept of personal responsibility is instilled in a properly trained sportsman. Education is key to practice, responsibility, and safety. I have no problem with regulation of bearing arms any more than the regulation of medicine. The practice is of great importance. But an enumerated right is not to be infringed upon.

    2. The government should have the monopoly of force. Otherwise, we get situations like this. Again, not Rittenhouse’s fault. The Kenosha police/leadership let riots happen. With the results we have seen.

    “Force” as defined by whom? Monopoly? Absolutely not. The government serves by consent of the governed. A government may be allocated power to perform duties too difficult for any other group (common defense) at the proper scale, but exclusive power? Even where such exclusivity may be found, it is never absolute in history.

    3. The misinformation spread about this situation has been relentless. I assume, at this point, it is deliberate. I assume the left wants race riots and is mad they aren’t getting them. I think the folks who are making Rittenhouse a hero want the same thing.

    I agree with your assessment and with your assumption. It is not unreasonable to assign bad faith to opposing sides – all fall short of the glory of G*D.

    4. What Rittenhouse did was stupid and what the responsible adults who let him play property defender was stupid. This kid is going to have to live with killing people. Since he doesn’t appear to be a psychopath, that’s enough punishment. I wish him a happy obscurity.

    Well said. Unfortunately, greatness has been forced upon him; fame and infamy alike are his lot now. How he chooses to deal with his situation will be his cross to bear. What he makes of the demands from the world will of great import to those with a will to power.

    5. I don’t mourn the people Rittenhouse killed, and don’t think of them as victims. They decided to take advantage of a riot, and were killed. Tough. Don’t riot. We don’t need vigilantes or rioters. But if we have them, somebody stands a good chance of dying. Tough. Somebody might give the dead a Darwin Award.
    Appalled (7d21f9) — 11/21/2021 @ 8:02 am

    This is a sober take from one who has well-lived an unrepeatable life. You have my respect – such as it is.

    felipe (484255)

  144. So, a serious question.

    Given the level of arson, looting and random violence that happens during these “demonstrations”, should police employ force to shut them down? Should they employ deadly force in the case of looting or arson? Should they deputize members of the affected communities to assist their efforts?

    This is out of hand.

    https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/neiman-marcus-on-chicagos-mag-mile-struck-by-thieves
    https://abc7news.com/louis-vuitton-looted-union-square-robbery-san-francisco/11256032/
    https://www.boston25news.com/news/boston-police-release-photos-dozens-suspects-nieman-marcus-looting/FSH7NB36MCMWNTSNZVEBQJVPEA/

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  145. When does the concept of a “well-regulated militia” come into play? Is this just the National Guard? OR is there a larger body of citizens trained to arms who could be called to serve along side regular police?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. There was no rioting in Kenosha after the verdict but there was some in other cities,

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  147. Appalled (7d21f9) — 11/21/2021 @ 8:02 am

    3. The misinformation spread about this situation has been relentless. I assume, at this point, it is deliberate. I assume the left wants race riots and is mad they aren’t getting them. I think the folks who are making Rittenhouse a hero want the same thing.

    They both agree he deliberately shot people – the far left disapproves and the far right approves.

    4. What Rittenhouse did was stupid and what the responsible adults who let him play property defender was stupid. This kid is going to have to live with killing people. Since he doesn’t appear to be a psychopath, that’s enough punishment. I wish him a happy obscurity.

    His lawyer said he will probably move.

    The lawyer is getting death threats, so much so that he can’t use his cell phone. His wife’s cell phone is also getting these calls. It started three weeks ago, but it intensified after the verdict.

    Meanwhile, there’s a dispute as to who gets the bail money back. The people who paid it (ex-lawyers) or the people who put up the money.

    It’s unclear to me if Rosenbaum used the n word only on other protesters, or also on Rittenhouse.

    NBC is still repeatedly saying Rittenhouse crossed state lines.

    My Congressman, Jerrold Nadler, seems to want some kind of federal investigation, but maybe it’s not of Rittenhouse. Nadler seems afraid of the far left. Doesn’t he know maybe about half of his district is in Brooklyn and I don’t think it can shrink in redistricting?

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  148. They both agree he deliberately shot people – the far left disapproves and the far right approves.

    Well, and this is really just as bad. Yes, it was deliberate rather than accidental. Did he maybe have a reason why it seemed like a good idea (as opposed to not shooting them)? The Right (far?!) agrees, the Left wanted them to kill him.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  149. It’s unclear to me if Rosenbaum used the n word only on other protesters, or also on Rittenhouse.

    And wait, RITTENHOUSE is the white supremacist?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  150. “Teenaged boy makes some really stupid decisions.”

    Three men made worse decisions that night.

    James B. Shearer (e06c33)

  151. “Given the level of arson, looting and random violence that happens during these “demonstrations”, should police employ force to shut them down?”

    The police were there, but their movement, ROI, and ability to perform normal procedures was heavily restricted. Riots are more properly the domain of the National Guard, which wasn’t called out due to the feckless and procedure-addicted local Midwestern government.

    “It’s not Rittenhouse’s fault that it was not illegal for him to be holding that weapon at age 17. Nevertheless, it should have been illegal.”

    No, it shouldn’t have. As a society we’ve pushed back the maturing process and insulated ourselves from reality and its consequences too much already. If you’re old enough to patrol Kandahar with a rifle, you’re old enough to patrol Kenosha.

    Besides, the prospect of getting shot to death by a grinning local kid in a T-shirt, cargo shorts, and American flag Crocs on his Tiktok profile is far more of an embarrassing deterrent for rioters and career criminals than going back into a system they’re already familiar with and institutionalized in. Grosskreutz knew the self-defense statutes well enough to not risk firing on Kyle until he was close enough to join in what he thought would be a beatdown that he could claim was ‘subduing an active shooter’.

    “Nadler seems afraid of the far left.”

    Being “afraid” of the far left is no excuse for being the only one on the judiciary committee who jumps at the chance to put forward a motion to railroad the innocent even further. He who jumps when evil calls is no better than Binger and the Blob.

    “I assume the left wants race riots and is mad they aren’t getting them. I think the folks who are making Rittenhouse a hero want the same thing.

    Absolutely backwards, as befits your cowardly leftist reasoning. One Rittenhouse is not enough. A hundred thousand volunteer Rittenhouses around the country and ‘protests’ stay permanently in the status of ‘peaceable assemblies for the redress of grievances.’

    Kyle is a hero, an example to the rest of us, a reminder that you don’t have to hide and hunker down when the Democrat Party’s hired criminals, failed offspring trying to prove they’re down for the cause, and the various chaos tourists and fellow-travelers come to your community to burn, rape, and loot as long as you can organize even a small number of your neighbors to keep armed watch till morning comes.

    All it requires is a legal mindset that is firmly dedicated to protecting self-defense rights and not apologizing for riotous situations with vague ‘HE SHOULDN’T HAVE BEEN THERE’ bromides like an abuse enabler who blames everyone else but her boyfriend when her boyfriend starts having psychotic episodes. It is good and right that rioters get shot by local citizens, just as it is bad and wrong that so many permanent criminals are walking on the street rather than previously executed by the state properly for their previous heinous crimes.

    Moral Reasoners (90b93b)

  152. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/21/2021 @ 12:09 pm

    When does the concept of a “well-regulated militia” come into play? Is this just the National Guard? OR is there a larger body of citizens trained to arms who could be called to serve along side regular police?

    I’d say this larger body is the group of citizens trained to arms. I’d guessed we’d disagree on what trained to arms means but this is what the well regulated militia part of 2A means. It doesn’t mean only the militia is allowed to have guns and it doesn’t mean regulated as in restricted. It means in order to have a well regulated, that is trained and experienced, militia citizens need un-infringed access to firearms and need to be ready and familiar with them.

    frosty (f27e97)

  153. Oh, look, Waukesha just got its Christmas parade ran over by some repeat offender who some liberal female judge let out two days ago. Probably a police chase gone wrong, though Wisconsin police seem to have a penchant for driving violent criminals toward innocent citizens to save their own skins.

    Abolish the carceral state, bring back public executions, end criminal lives before lawyers, judges, and wardens can extend the imprisonment cycle and profit off of such tragedies indefinitely at our expense!

    Moral Reasoners (87d23e)

  154. It means in order to have a well regulated, that is trained and experienced, militia citizens need un-infringed access to firearms and need to be ready and familiar with them.
    frosty (f27e97) — 11/21/2021 @ 7:32 pm

    Bingo. frosty gets it. Spread the word.

    felipe (484255)

  155. Your efforts to rehabilitate Grosskreutz’s image are laudable. A little more and you might be able to get him invited to the WH. You should start a campaign to get JB to give him the Medal of Freedom.
    frosty (f27e97) — 11/21/2021 @ 7:32 am

    Oh, frosty. You are right to say “laudable;” however, nk is doing nothing of the sort, and your rejoinder not only fails to hit the mark, but falls well-short of the target, because nk speaks charitably of the demonstration (however subtle and perhaps unconscious, but real)of humanity by GG.

    GG is due the credit nk accords him by way of justice.

    felipe (484255)

  156. I must correct and clarify myself (bold are objects of correction/clarification):

    When a golfer slices a shot that results in private property damage, blame is not assigned to the club, but the wielder. This is not to overlook equipment failure due to workmanship or negligence (say, car accident). The same concept of personal responsibility is instilled in a properly trained sportsman. Education is key to practice, responsibility, and safety. I have no problem with regulation of bearing arms any more than the regulation of medicine. The practice is of great importance. But an enumerated right is not to be infringed upon.

    “A properly trained sportsman”

    This is a gross error in my choice of words. The 2nd amendment is not concerned about hunting or the recreational use of arms at all, but about citizens right to mount a defense, whether of self or others. I should have written:

    One who has been properly trained to bear arms”

    Regulation of arms and regulation of medicine:

    Regulation of arms is meant to mean laws that describe and provide for the education of citizens in order to prepare the citizenry to effectively and responsively practice their right to bear arms in their uninfringed access to arms.

    By contrast, the regulation of medicine includes the restriction of its practice to those who have obtained a license granted by the relevant authorities. This is to what I allude, by the words “the practice.”

    Thank you for your kind patience and attention.

    felipe (484255)

  157. When the Second Amendment was ratified, the “militia” of the United States had “regulation”, in the sense of knowing how and more importantly when, and I repeat “more importantly when”, to use a gun from birth. Because at the time America was that kind of place and it needed to raise that kind of people.

    Now? You’ve seen the nitwits picketing state capitols, and their ilk using up precious oxygen elsewhere. A couple in Congress even. Living out their fantasies, with their Mattels slung or held close to their nether orifices. Them, I would advise to leave their IDs and house keys behind when they pick up their gun and go out to play Have Gun Will Travel. That way, when some feral teenagers go through their pockets after they’ve disarmed them, disabled them, or killed them, they won’t find out where they live and go and get their other guns, ammunition, and sundry valuables.

    nk (1d9030)

  158. When does the concept of a “well-regulated militia” come into play? Is this just the National Guard?

    What is now called thr “National Guard” used to be called “the militia”

    OR is there a larger body of citizens trained to arms who could be called to serve along side regular police?

    Any number of people can be included in the militia.

    But this is An official, or semi-official body, with commanders.

    “PEOPLE” in the 2nd amendment is a collective entity, as in the 10th amendment. (a single individual cannot be said to have “powers” like a state.)

    The reason the second amendment does not say states is basically to include Vermont and North Carolina and Tennessee and unorganized territories.

    But some people at the time also wanted to include the right of individual self defense. That might be covered under the 9th amendment. What the Second amendment protected was the right for some others besides the federal government to raise armies.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  159. What the Second amendment protected was the right for some others besides the federal government to raise armies.

    Like Senator Lane’s Jayhawkers (Redlegs) and William Quantrill’s Bushwackers, Sammy?

    nk (1d9030)

  160. AS long as they weren’t in rebellion against the federal government, or against the constitution.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  161. Sammy Finkelman (c49738) — 11/22/2021 @ 7:42 am

    What is now called thr “National Guard” used to be called “the militia”

    Any number of people can be included in the militia

    These two statements aren’t consistent with each other and mix up a bit of history.

    You can’t substitute “any number of people” for the the National Guard. The National Guard is a trained and organized military body, aka an army.

    What was then called “the people” who had arms and were proficient in their use and could be expected to respond to a call to defend their community, state, country. etc. were the militia.

    What the Second amendment protected was the right for some others besides the federal government to raise armies.

    Yes, those armies would be raised from “the people” with weapons and some level of proficiency, aka militia. It’s also helpful to realize that prior to 20th century large professional armies in the US were not common and were not the only way to organize for a conflict. In many cases it followed what we’d now call a privatized or outsourced model. This is why it’s funny when people say “what you think individuals should own cannons”.

    The founders understood the difference between an army and a militia and it’s fair to interpret their choice of words to have been on purpose.

    frosty (f27e97)

  162. The founders also opposed having a standing army, but here we are.

    Davethulhu (ffac4e)

  163. Some did – Alexander Hamilton thought the idea of relying on a militia was all wrong.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  164. Federalist number 29:

    https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed29.asp

    ,,,, If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security. If standing armies are dangerous to liberty, an efficacious power over the militia, in the body to whose care the protection of the State is committed, ought, as far as possible, to take away the inducement and the pretext to such unfriendly institutions. If the federal government can command the aid of the militia in those emergencies which call for the military arm in support of the civil magistrate, it can the better dispense with the employment of a different kind of force. If it cannot avail itself of the former, it will be obliged to recur to the latter. To render an army unnecessary, will be a more certain method of preventing its existence than a thousand prohibitions upon paper.,,,

    …By a curious refinement upon the spirit of republican jealousy, we are even taught to apprehend danger from the militia itself, in the hands of the federal government. It is observed that select corps may be formed, composed of the young and ardent, who may be rendered subservient to the views of arbitrary power. What plan for the regulation of the militia may be pursued by the national government, is impossible to be foreseen. But so far from viewing the matter in the same light with those who object to select corps as dangerous, were the Constitution ratified, and were I to deliver my sentiments to a member of the federal legislature from this State on the subject of a militia establishment, I should hold to him, in substance, the following discourse:

    “The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.

    “But though the scheme of disciplining the whole nation must be abandoned as mischievous or impracticable; yet it is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate extent, upon such principles as will really fit them for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”

    Thus differently from the adversaries of the proposed Constitution should I reason on the same subject, deducing arguments of safety from the very sources which they represent as fraught with danger and perdition. But how the national legislature may reason on the point, is a thing which neither they nor I can foresee.

    There is something so far-fetched and so extravagant in the idea of danger to liberty from the militia, that one is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or with raillery; whether to consider it as a mere trial of skill, like the paradoxes of rhetoricians; as a disingenuous artifice to instil prejudices at any price; or as the serious offspring of political fanaticism. Where in the name of common-sense, are our fears to end if we may not trust our sons, our brothers, our neighbors, our fellow-citizens? What shadow of danger can there be from men who are daily mingling with the rest of their countrymen and who participate with them in the same feelings, sentiments, habits and interests? What reasonable cause of apprehension can be inferred from a power in the Union to prescribe regulations for the militia, and to command its services when necessary, while the particular States are to have the SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS? If it were possible seriously to indulge a jealousy of the militia upon any conceivable establishment under the federal government, the circumstance of the officers being in the appointment of the States ought at once to extinguish it. There can be no doubt that this circumstance will always secure to them a preponderating influence over the militia.

    In reading many of the publications against the Constitution, a man is apt to imagine that he is perusing some ill-written tale or romance, which instead of natural and agreeable images, exhibits to the mind nothing but frightful and distorted shapes “Gorgons, hydras, and chimeras dire”; discoloring and disfiguring whatever it represents, and transforming everything it touches into a monster.

    A sample of this is to be observed in the exaggerated and improbable suggestions which have taken place respecting the power of calling for the services of the militia. That of New Hampshire is to be marched to Georgia, of Georgia to New Hampshire, of New York to Kentucky, and of Kentucky to Lake Champlain. Nay, the debts due to the French and Dutch are to be paid in militiamen instead of louis d’ors and ducats. At one moment there is to be a large army to lay prostrate the liberties of the people; at another moment the militia of Virginia are to be dragged from their homes five or six hundred miles, to tame the republican contumacy of Massachusetts; and that of Massachusetts is to be transported an equal distance to subdue the refractory haughtiness of the aristocratic Virginians. Do the persons who rave at this rate imagine that their art or their eloquence can impose any conceits or absurdities upon the people of America for infallible truths?

    If there should be an army to be made use of as the engine of despotism, what need of the militia? If there should be no army, whither would the militia, irritated by being called upon to undertake a distant and hopeless expedition, for the purpose of riveting the chains of slavery upon a part of their countrymen, direct their course, but to the seat of the tyrants, who had meditated so foolish as well as so wicked a project, to crush them in their imagined intrenchments of power, and to make them an example of the just vengeance of an abused and incensed people? Is this the way in which usurpers stride to dominion over a numerous and enlightened nation? Do they begin by exciting the detestation of the very instruments of their intended usurpations? Do they usually commence their career by wanton and disgustful acts of power, calculated to answer no end, but to draw upon themselves universal hatred and execration? Are suppositions of this sort the sober admonitions of discerning patriots to a discerning people? Or are they the inflammatory ravings of incendiaries or distempered enthusiasts? If we were even to suppose the national rulers actuated by the most ungovernable ambition, it is impossible to believe that they would employ such preposterous means to accomplish their designs.

    In times of insurrection, or invasion, it would be natural and proper that the militia of a neighboring State should be marched into another, to resist a common enemy, or to guard the republic against the violence of faction or sedition. This was frequently the case, in respect to the first object, in the course of the late war; and this mutual succor is, indeed, a principal end of our political association. If the power of affording it be placed under the direction of the Union, there will be no danger of a supine and listless inattention to the dangers of a neighbor, till its near approach had superadded the incitements of selfpreservation to the too feeble impulses of duty and sympathy.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  165. Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 11/22/2021 @ 1:08 pm

    I’m no expert Sammy but it seems like Hamilton a) knew the difference between a militia and an army, b) wouldn’t approve of our current military organization and in fact would argue against it, and c) wasn’t the final word on the 2nd amendment.

    frosty (f27e97)


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