Patterico's Pontifications

11/8/2021

Trump Planned to Start New Party

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



ABC News:

In an angry conversation on his final day as president, Donald Trump told the chairwoman of the Republican National Committee he was leaving the GOP and creating his own political party — and that he didn’t care if the move would destroy the Republican Party, according to a new book by ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl.

Trump only backed down when Republican leaders threatened to take actions that would have cost Trump millions of dollars, Karl writes his upcoming book, “Betrayal: The Final Act of the Trump Show.”

I enjoyed Karl’s last book and will be reading this one. I just finished the Woodward one — which was typical Woodward. His sources (like Milley and Barr) are the heroes; their enemies the goats. At least Woodward’s was more entertaining than Michael Bender’s book, which droned on about minutiae of campaign intrigue until you were ready to pull your hair out. Karl’s last one was great and I look forward to this one.

But this story, like so many Trump stories, is both wholly believable and tells you nothing you did not know about his personality, one on hand . . . but on the other, likely reflects a temporary rash of infantile anger as opposed to a Serious Plan. Of course Trump would have started a third party if the GOP had turned its back on him. He doesn’t care about the party or its success one whit. But the party instead embraced him, with all his election kookery and so forth. So he stayed.

Like Trump, the story is entertaining, but ultimately does not amount to much.

But it is amusing how diehard Republicans will shrug this off, like they shrug off every shred of proof that Trump does not care about anyone or anything but himself.

102 Responses to “Trump Planned to Start New Party”

  1. I can, in fact, separate the GOP and Trump in my head. I know that eventually they will be separate in fact. If there were a viable alternative, I’d be there in a shot but I have spent enough time in the political wilderness to know that all political effect today lies in the one party, or the other.

    And the Democrats, of late, have shown they are even crazier than Trump. So, I will do what I can to bring the party that isn’t the Democrats back into the light. To me, abandoning them to their fate doe3s not seem constructive.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  2. It seems though that we have had this conversation before.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. I don’t think this tells us anything about Trump or the GOP that we didn’t already know. He’s vindictive and narcissistic, the GOP is morally bankrupt and fully ruled by the MAGA wing of the party.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  4. Trump didn’t maintain this intention or threat for long, so we don’t know how serious he was — except about being backed up about the election

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  5. Those of us who have an interest in Mr. Trump’s motivation for any given action will seldom go astray by following the old advice to “Follow the money.”

    John B Boddie (9f8361)

  6. I pretty much shot my commenting wad on this subject in the open thread, but a 44.9% plurality wanted this shallow selfish con man to be Leader of the Free World.
    It’s always been Trump first, country second. This party needs to distance itself from this contemptible human being, yet it’s still not happening. At best, it’s not happening fast enough.
    I notice that Trump called Karl a “third-rate” journalist, which is false. He’s definitely one of the better ones out there.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  7. How child protective services was sicced on someone because of school politics although she thinks her race had something to do with it – although maybe it works better with black people, or people living in certain neighborhoods. They can’t or don’t hire expensive lawyers or have political connections.

    The system is pernicious because there is no due process and, no matter what, you can’t get away from the need for due process and impartial judgement.

    https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-stop-weaponizing-child-protective-services-20211108-lkjhewmtlzbwljj2fmfneokswu-story.html

    By SHALONDA CURTIS-HACKETT
    NEW YORK DAILY NEWS |
    NOV 08, 2021 AT 5:00 AM

    One day in June. I received a terrifying phone call. I was under investigation by New York City’s family policing agency, the Administration for Children’s Services. At first, the caseworker even refused to tell me what I was being investigated for. She eventually revealed allegations that my children were so malnourished that their cheeks were sunken in and their bones were sticking out.

    I asked who was making such absurd allegations. ACS refused to tell me. Odds are it was someone from my children’s elementary school. I’ve long taken a deep, active interest in my children’s education. And I’ve offended some people — particularly with my strong advocacy for community inclusion and curriculum expansion to better engage and serve Black history and LGBTQ+ New Yorkers.

    In early June, I had brought my children to the school building for the first time since the start of the pandemic to speak to the district superintendent and principal about my concerns regarding my children’s safety and dignity in their classrooms. Six days later, I was under investigation by ACS.

    Even if the malnourishment allegations had been true — by the way, my husband is a classically-trained chef — the logical response would have been to ask if I needed food, and help me get it. Instead, the caseworker issued an ultimatum: I could comply with her investigation and ongoing surveillance or she would involve police or Family Court. I didn’t really know my rights and the last thing I needed was more threats to my children’s safety, so I complied.

    The investigation and surveillance were invasive and dehumanizing. They checked our cabinets and fridge, scrutinized our living arrangements and questioned our lifestyle. We have been parents for 14 years and we have never been subjected to violence of this magnitude. After several visits, the ACS worker told me she was glad that she had my case because I would have scared her white co-worker.

    I’m not alone. I believe the kind of retaliatory reporting I experienced is weaponized against Black and Brown families. I would never just let strangers into my home and interrogate my children at any time, let alone during a global pandemic, but there were no checks and balances. My family was assumed guilty and had to prove our innocence. No one fact-checked whoever called in their allegation, and I believe that will embolden them to terrorize other families….

    She says there was ahearing – and didn’t feel she was really being listened to:

    Three weeks ago, I testified about my experience before the Children and Families Committee of the New York State Assembly, alongside other impacted parents and advocates. Even with everything that was done to us and our children, we were not testifying in pursuit of additional rights — only in support of a bill requiring ACS to tell us the limited rights we already have.

    Impacted parents spontaneously burst into tears while listening to each other’s testimony about how their children screamed for them when they were forcibly separated by the government.

    As I sat at the witness table testifying, it was hard not to notice that no one on the committee looked like me. How could they ever know what I go through as a Black mother? So when the chair told me and other parents that he “appreciated” our testimony, it rang hollow, especially after he profusely thanked the commissioner of ACS for his work, despite the data showing ACS disproportionately targets Black and Brown families and admitting the agency is racist.

    When the ranking member went out of her way to comment that she thought a white couple who testified about being foster caregivers were “good people,” I wondered why she didn’t make any point of giving me, or D’Juan Collins and Desseray Wright, the colleagues I testified with, the same benefit of the doubt. Sitting next to Desseray and D’Juan, I was grateful that I could present with them to show that the system targets many Black families, not just those where parents might have criminal system involvement.

    To this day, I remain under ACS surveillance. As a family participating in the Strike for Safe Schools, ACS is used as a threat to bring our children into the school buildings. Out of fear of more retribution we now home-school our children.

    The PTSD we went through to educate the committee members about the way the system mistreats Black, Brown, low-income and systematically marginalized families is meaningless if the committee does not vote to pass laws that will hold so-called social services agencies statewide accountable. The Legislature must level the playing field by simply requiring ACS and other government agencies to be accountable,

    Yet all the propaganda that makes the headlines is about cases of families where children who were not removed. Of course people who make Type I errors make Type II errors too. Making more Type I errors does not cause people to make fewer Type II errors..

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  8. Right now, I can’t imagine supporting either party. They’re both rotten to the core. I would only vote for a Republican who publicly and unambiguously denounced the Big Lie, and I would only vote for a Democrat who has a record of fiscal responsibility (few do, it seems). I don’t see the Republican party recovering from the malaise of Trumpism anytime soon.

    Roger (17a3ee)

  9. The strory does link to this other story (educational neglect probes)

    https://www.thecity.nyc/education/2021/9/8/22663662/new-school-year-brings-new-concerns-of-pandemic-educational-neglect-child-welfare-probes

    But concerned parents and advocates are bracing for a repeat of last year, when, as THE CITY revealed, multiple families were investigated by the city Administration for Children’s Services for neglect — in some cases, because they didn’t have internet access or hadn’t yet received a city-issued iPad.

    Calls made by school staff — and other so-called mandated reporters — to the state neglect and abuse hotline overwhelmingly target Black and Latino families.

    Because I guess, they are not surprisedat the accusations. Of course real educational neglect would be just letting children attend public schools..

    School employees are required by law to report suspected child neglect or abuse to the Statewide Central Register of Child Abuse and Maltreatment (SCR). Staffers at SCR are the first line of evaluation, and forward any cases they see fit for investigation to ACS.

    So that becomes a defense against false accusations.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  10. The items about child protective services should have been in the open thread or in the migrant lawsuit thread.

    Roger (17a3ee) — 11/8/2021 @ 11:03 am

    and I would only vote for a Democrat who has a record of fiscal responsibility (few do, it seems). I don’t see the Republican party recovering from the malaise of Trumpism anytime soon.

    You’re not worried about wokeism, orpro-ctime policies?

    Fiscal irresponsibility is necessary to make up for the damage pro crime policies have caused.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  11. I don’t think this tells us anything about Trump or the GOP that we didn’t already know.

    It does show us, once again, something that a considerable chunk of Americans, including some putative intellectuals, refuse to acknowledge.

    Is there anyone else in public life who is so routinely declared to be a much better person than his or her public self-presentation and candid remarks indicate? Does anyone know someone personally about whom the same could confidently be asserted?

    Radegunda (04d5d1)

  12. Patterico – May I recommend that you read Michael Shellenberger’s Apocalypse Never next, rather than another book about Trump?

    I would be very interested in knowing whether some very prominent California Democrats have been breaking laws there, as well as behaving badly. For instance, when Pat Brown was working to import low-sulfur Indonesian oil.

    (I decided years ago not to read the Trump books, since I already knew that he was unfit for public office. I suppose I could have learned more about his incompetence, that has cost so many American lives.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  13. Trump Smacks Down Report He Threatened to Start His Own Political Party

    https://ijr.com/trump-smacks-down-report-he-threatened-to-start-his-own-political-party/

    _________

    Sounds suspiciously like echoes of his NFL/USFL squabbles from the ’80s when the NFL owners shut him out. ‘The-ol’-split-start-a-competitor-then-plan-a-merger-to-cash-in-for-a-win-plan’ as Maxwell Smart might quip. Political party or football league- it’s Trump 101 to him.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-donald-trump-destroyed-the-united-states-football_b_57bf07b2e4b0b01630dde439

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  14. I don’t think this tells us anything about Trump or the GOP that we didn’t already know.

    Agree.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  15. “I decided years ago not to read the Trump books”

    Same here. I’ve not heard any excerpts that surprise me or give me a new or interesting take on Trump. In a Machiavellian sense, I do give Trump kudos for pulling off the massive grift that he did….and being able to not only survive Jan 6th….but thrive. Again, I thought he was done when he mocked McCain’s captivity….but I think that says more about society then it does about Trump. His Machiavellian brilliance is how he co-opted Talk Radio, Fox, and Evangelicals. To this day, I question whether he REALLY wanted to win in 2016 because as hard as he campaigned, he kept double-downing on nuttiness. I do wonder what will come out about the grift eventually…..but right now, we’re still mid-grift…there will be no breaking of Kayfabe so the books are still going to be largely speculative. Just as I don’t like watching people get embarrassed on reality TV….I don’t like seeing the majority of a party being gullible…..The books will just make me shake my head…

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  16. Trump would have been as successful in building a third party as he was in getting a second term. It takes more than talk, and talk is all he is. But Da Niece, like a good little sister-wife, did not want to upset the household and her sinecure in it. So she didn’t tell him to hit the road and not let the door hit his wrinkled old orange tuchus on the way out and cleanse the New York sewer sludge from the GOP the way the electorate cleansed it from Pennsylvania Avenue.

    nk (1d9030)

  17. Trump Smacks Down Report He Threatened to Start His Own Political Party

    Because if there’s anything that’s truly credible, it’s a Trump denial of something he finds inconvenient to admit.

    Radegunda (04d5d1)

  18. I thought he was done when he mocked McCain’s captivity….but I think that says more about society then it does about Trump.

    What’s most astonishing is how many people who purport to care more than you do about moral values chose not only to disregard all evidence of his poor character, but to insist that he is the most valiant champion of patriotic virtue and moral values that we’ve seen in generations.

    That cultural phenomenon is more disturbing than Trump himself. Is it just a matter of the Trump Exemption — the special rules that apply to him alone? Or is it a more general disposition to cast moral judgment aside and revel in the badness of a grossly self-centered cretin?

    Radegunda (04d5d1)

  19. Dream on never trumpers. He will the republican nominee in 2024. Start your own rich people’s/multi national corporation free trade party.

    asset (531704)

  20. Trump would have been as successful in building a third party as he was in getting a second term. It takes more than talk, and talk is all he is.

    Not quite- there’s those 74+ million voters, a number that grew from the previous cycle. I think we’re looking at the wrong end of the telescope. Trump is who he is. It’s the same act now as it was for NYers in the 80s. The real question is why the draw to him by the electorate.

    The data from an old thesis indicates a candidate like Trump, with no previous elected office experience, was going to be nominated by a major party for the POTUS spot– and win [the projections from 1976 suggested around 2000- and it turned out to be 2016.] Youngkin follows the pattern as well on the state level. We debated the data and projected trends back in the day and the conclusions came back to the growth in populism due to the failures of the major parties to deliver for the electorate. Angst, if not anger, fueled voter disappointments at simply wanting to see things ‘get done’ and little happening. The populist pattern is there; Anderson, Perot, Buchanan, Palin…etc. And it’s not necessarily unique to either major party. It’s ironic that the 45 year-big government-experienced of Biden, elected to return ‘calm,’ is ending up reinforcing the very rationale why a Trump-style candidate was elected. He’s Trump’s best campaigner by his own actions. The $2000 is $1400; the 100% is 90%; The abandoning $85 billion in equipment; the sale of carriers for scrap for a penny a piece; the border mess; inflation; proposing paying illegals compensation; the vaccine mandate confusions… etc. Look at his poll numbers today. Dismal, and not even a year in office.

    Gingrich’s GOP response is pitching another ‘contract w/America.’ Few will buy that ploy anymore. Voters want things done. Just review the infrastructure legislation. People expect bridges, dams and roads and water works working. It’s bipartisan- but they add costly elements- some superfluous- that simply aren’t truly basic, essential, immediate infrastructure necessities– and this ticks off the electorate all the more and only fuels ‘pragmatic populism.’ This isn’t going to dissipate. Not for several cycles, until a competent candidate gets elected and gets things done.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  21. Start your own rich people’s/multi national corporation free trade party.

    It’s quaint that you think we’re all rich. There are boatloads of Trumpists who are wealthier than I am.

    Radegunda (04d5d1)

  22. It’s one thing for 74 million cars to cross America on Route 66 and another thing to build a Route 66 along with its gas stations, restaurants, motels, and rest stops to cross America on. The GOP organization is Trump’s Route 66 and he has absolutely no ability to build a Trump Interstate Tollway. None, zero, zilch, zip, nada. All he can do is talk, play golf, and jerk off. Ronna knows that but … no balls. Not her and not the steers and mossbacks of the GOP neither.

    nk (1d9030)

  23. It’s quaint that you think we’re all rich. There are boatloads of Trumpists who are wealthier than I am.

    ‘The median household income of a Trump voter so far in the primaries is about $72,000, based on estimates derived from exit polls and Census Bureau data.’ – fivethirtyeight.com 5/3/2016

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  24. It’s one thing for 74 million cars to cross America on Route 66 and another thing to build a Route 66 along with its gas stations, restaurants, motels, and rest stops to cross America on.

    Don’t think you want either party to be constructing government O&O gas stations, restaurants, & hotels. Even the DoD subcontracts that out… to Halliburton. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  25. “Maverick” A Biography of Thomas Sowell by Jason L. Riley was a great read for me. As well as “The Dying Citizen” By Victor Davis Hanson.

    mg (8cbc69)

  26. If Clarence Thomas and Thomas Sowell were to run for election would it be
    Sowell/ Thomas or Thomas / Sowell?
    That ticket would get me to vote.

    mg (8cbc69)

  27. “But it is amusing how diehard Republicans will shrug this off, like they shrug off every shred of proof that Trump does not care about anyone or anything but himself.”

    I have seen no MEA CULPA, MEA MAXIMA CULPA from the Left or NeverTrumpers about the cavalcade of Russian collusion B.S. they shoveled out concerning Trump-Russia alone from Day One, and have thus chosen to ignore all evidence of MORAL TURPITUDE and DISQUALIFYING UNFITNESS FOR OFFICE they bring up about Trump and never, ever, ever, about high-profile Democrats, especially when they’re the governor of their own state, disappeared mysteriously for days following his vaccination.

    I don’t take moral direction from the morally bankrupt, but I will absolutely support their destruction by a more powerful adversary.

    Shruggernuts (b45c3e)

  28. I notice that Trump called Karl a “third-rate” journalist, which is false. He’s definitely one of the better ones out there.

    Trump doesn’t need Twitter. Never did. The press echoes every word. I don’t listen to his drivel, just as I don’t listen to his posse or AOC and hers.

    I continually wait for the GOP to, somewhere, find a pair.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  29. When Trump is in jail for any of a hundred things, will he still have this following? Does he really have to be shot and hanged by the feet before they give up?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  30. For instance, when Pat Brown was working to import low-sulfur Indonesian oil.

    Pat Brown is beyond mortal reach.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. @21 sorry for not adding and their supplicants. I just thought you assumed that.

    asset (c7d75a)

  32. The never trumpers here continue to hallucinate that the republican base is not populist and doesn’t lothe never trump free trade economic libertarian conservatives. How many times does the 74,000,000 populist pro trump republican party has to tell you get out an stay out. What part of NO! don’t you understand.

    asset (c7d75a)

  33. Billy bob Kristol and the Lincoln Projectiles want to advise the GOP on the upcoming elections. He has the balls of a Democrat, I’ll give him that.

    mg (8cbc69)

  34. Now that DS-CSA is back, I finally decided to try that comment blocking script. Amazing. I should have done this years ago.

    Demosthenes (3fd56e)

  35. How many times does the 74,000,000 populist pro trump republican party has to tell you get out an stay out

    A very large portion of that 74,000,000 voted for someone other than Trump in the 2016 primaries, and voted for Romney in 2012 and for McCain in 2008. But now every single one of them is an ardently pro trump populist, with nary a hold-your-nose, binary-choice voter in the whole lot. Amazing!

    They also like Trump’s supply-side, pro-big-business tax cuts. But the populist tariffs not so much.

    Radegunda (df2145)

  36. I don’t take moral direction from the morally bankrupt,

    Right, only a morally bankrupt person would be appalled when a politician boasts “I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any voters! It’s great!”

    Radegunda (df2145)

  37. @37 Rep. paul gosar (R-az) is circulating a cartoon on social media depicting him stabbing AOC to death with a knife and then attacking president biden with it.

    asset (39ca03)

  38. Jonathan Karl was on Steve Colbert last night. He said that Trump said that when he got a call from from the RNC Chair/ Ronna McDaniel just as he was about to leave for the last time aboard Air Force One on January 20. She wanted to call him because she could not be there to wish him farewell. That’s when he said he was going to leave the Republican Party because they hadn’t helped him stay in office. It took four or five days till he reversed his decision.

    There were two things the RNC told him:

    1) If he left they would stop paying the bills for his election lawyers

    2) They owuld take control of his mailing list and make it available fr free (to other Re[ublicans presumably) Trump was collecting a fee for its use.

    The book will be officially out on November 16.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  39. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/8/2021 @ 5:40 pm

    I haven’t heard anything lately on that. I did hear about the Clinton guy getting arrested related to Russiagate. I don’t expect him to do any time though. He’ll either walk or accidentally hang himself.

    frosty (f27e97)

  40. @32 “How many times does the 74,000,000 populist pro trump republican party has to tell you get out an stay out. What part of NO! don’t you understand.”
    They don’t have to tell me at all. I was an independent (though Republican leaning) even before Trump. So you can go ahead and advocate all the purges you want as far as I’m concerned. It’s obvious, though, that your purges will only dig a deeper grave for that party.

    Roger (17a3ee)

  41. Trump doesn’t need Twitter. Never did. The press echoes every word.

    This site does a pretty bang up job of echoing Trump’s words as well. Followed with lectures and complaints about anyone discussing Trump. It’s amusing.

    BuDuh (4a7846)

  42. @42, my favorite was when Frosty and JF would make bets on how long it took to get someone to talk about Trump.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  43. As long as Trump continues to assert himself as leader of my party, as long as he continues hinting at a 2024 run, as long as he attempts to purge Republicans who’ve been “disloyal” to him, as long as he supports Republicans who’ve bent the knee to him, as long as he continues to whine and moan about the “stolen” 2020 election, he’s going to be talked about, and not in a nice way.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  44. This site does a pretty bang up job of echoing Trump’s words as well. Followed with lectures and complaints about anyone discussing Trump. It’s amusing.

    Who has been doing the “lectures and complaints about anyone discussing Trump”? Hmmm?

    He still has a stranglehold on one of the two major political parties. Some people apparently think that’s as God intended. Some people get very hurt and offended when anything reflecting badly on him is noted. And they complain about it.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  45. my favorite was when Frosty and JF would make bets on how long it took to get someone to talk about Trump.

    I like to see how long it takes someone to complain that someone said something critical of Trump.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  46. … how long it takes for someone to complain ….

    Radegunda (496b04)

  47. As long as Trump continues to assert himself as leader of my party, ….

    Some of us would really like a serious alternate to the Dems, and not a personality cult led by someone who believes that any election he loses was rigged, and who’s inclined to try extraordinary means to stay in power. Some “intellectuals” in that cult have been fantasizing about civil war and a new caesar as appropriate means to get their way. Some of them are still busy putting the gloss on Trump as the Great Patriotic Hero, and still alleging that the election was stolen from him. They can’t stop thinking about Trump. The rest of us are not obliged to shut up about him.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  48. Even though DeSantis has hitched his wagon to Trump, Radegunda, he would be a much better GOP frontrunner, simply because he’s fit and hinged.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  49. A source close to California Gov. Gavin Newsom today told The Defender the governor experienced an adverse reaction to the Moderna COVID vaccine he received Oct. 27, the last day he was seen in public.

    https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/gov-gavin-newsom-moderna-booster-vaccine/

    If true, it will at least give him a clue as to why so many are anti-mandate.

    Obudman (ff7852)

  50. #50

    I see the words RFK Jr in an article…And it’s like I am being asked to believe Roger Stone, Pol Pot, or Baron Munchausen.

    That said, I do wonder what is going on with this.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  51. The straw-graspers are at it again:

    ‘Only a morally bankrupt person would be appalled when a politician boasts “I could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose any voters! It’s great!’

    You make a fair point, I suppose, but…

    “When Trump is in jail for any of a hundred things, will he still have this following? Does he really have to be shot and hanged by the feet before they give up?

    Hm. Nope, still supporting Trump. 5th Avenue and this comment section in general is a target-rich environment, what with all the mentally disturbed Cuomos and Kevins running around wildly shifting between pleas for civility and demands that their political enemies be treated like Communist tyrants. Psychologically unhinged people like this whose moral universe interprets “rejection of Communist oppression” as “acceptance of a failed status quo” belong as far from real power as possible. It’s barely a level above Kathy Griffin posing with the fake severed head:

    “Here’s a picture of a guy who died a violent death….what if we put TRUMP’S face on it…how d’ya feel about it now, huh?”

    It’s the type of amazingly stereotypical ploy that you’d normally see from a throwaway made-for-TV movie plot about a guy who got rejected and started resentfully inventing scenarios to make the girl look bad to all his friends, only to get rejected by those friends too.

    “A very large portion of that 74,000,000 voted for someone other than Trump in the 2016 primaries, and voted for Romney in 2012 and for McCain in 2008. But now every single one of them is an ardently pro trump populist, with nary a hold-your-nose, binary-choice voter in the whole lot. Amazing!”

    “We gave them horribly weak and terrible default choices when we controlled the party and as soon as they had a more appealing choice they became perma-loyalists! Coalitions, how do they even work?”

    “The Rittenhouse trial has been interesting”

    The Rittenhouse trial all this week and especially yesterday has been such a slam-dunk case for the defense that I’m absolutely unsurprised that the liberals aren’t posting about it here, even though yesterday brought scenes of witness turnarounds and criminal collusion by the prosecution that you’d normally dismiss as dramatic license from a Perry Mason episode or a Phoenix Wright case. Watching day six was better than any law drama you’ll ever see.

    Hyrueran (d5b6dd)

  52. he would be a much better GOP frontrunner, simply because he’s fit and hinged.

    He’s better than Trump, of course. But two things are practically disqualifying: 1. His zeal on courting Covid deniers and anti-vaxxers. 2. The ad that was all about telling us how much he loves Trump and how he’s instilling Trump-worship in his children.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  53. 6. Paul Montagu (5de684) — 11/8/2021 @ 11:00 am

    I notice that Trump called Karl a “third-rate” journalist, which is false.

    But when Jonathan Karl interviewed him for his book (the first time in March) Trump wanted everyone at Mar-a-Lago to know that he was being interviewed by Jonathan Karl, and he praised flattered him to his face.

    Jonathan Karl said that last night on Colbert’s show before he played some audiotape of the interview. He said before he played it that he needed to explain the sound quality, because Trump would only agree to be interviewed in the lobby – and you can hear it’s a lobby.

    He said Trump sounded [all right] but he was delusional. (more probably, he was pretending to be what can only be characterized as delusional.)

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  54. 5th Avenue and this comment section in general is a target-rich environment,

    The 5th Avenue comment was just one of many, many indications of an extraordinarily self-centered understanding of right and wrong, and a hint at the kind of loyalty he believes he deserves.

    What’s worse is how many Trump loyalists would bepretzel themselves to explain that he was entirely justified in the shooting, and would complain that the deep state was outrageously unfair in prosecuting him for it.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  55. Here’s the video of Trump being nterviewed n the lobby of Mar-a-Lago:

    Colbert with Karl November 8, 2021 Part I:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRyPOoHzSsA

    Part II:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxXy8aHpL7c&list=RDCMUCMtFAi84ehTSYSE9XoHefig&index=2

    (about 12 minutes in all)

    This is near the start of Part II. You can pick it up at 40 seconds – Colbert asks him about the sound before he starts and Jonathan Karl explains that at 1:30 – the Trump clip itself begins at about 1:55 in the second video.

    Mike Pence stopped him from including in the book the picture of him looking at the rump tweet about him by the White House photographer.

    The place Jonathan Karl describes Mike Pence as being (at 3:10 in the second video) sounds very much like Mark Levin’s description at the start of his radio show of where he’s broadcasting from.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  56. 55. Trump wasn’t endorsing it – he said it was amazing – he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue…

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  57. “This site does a pretty bang up job of echoing Trump’s words as well. Followed with lectures and complaints about anyone discussing Trump. It’s amusing.”

    I agree with Paul. Trump is still driving the GOP train and will likely run in 2024…or at minimum, anoint his successor. And, he continues to drive a patently false narrative about 2020 that creates a toxic aroma around the GOP…where anyone who objects is deemed persona non grata…and whose unsettling thesis questions the orderly transfer of power in our democracy. But I guess calling this out is just too….I don’t know…..divisive…annoying…sanctimonious? I suppose politics must be about othering democrats and not about being especially critical of one’s own party.

    Patterico has been Trump-skeptical from early on. Same goes for Dana. It’s not too surprising that many people who come to this site are also Trump-skeptical….and view the Trumpification of GOP politics as a hostile takeover…..that deserves and requires push back. Certainly complaining about Trump may only be therapeutic….it does not appear to be creating a ground swell….even after two impeachments, the muscling of the VP, and the sad breach of the Capitol.

    I guess Trump is like Beatlejuice….if we don’t say his name three times, he won’t appear and Tazmanian-Devil the political landscape. But ignoring the elephant in the room means you probably also ignore the fact that your are standing around a bunch of elephant excrement…and pretending it’s roses. Conservatives are fundamentally reality based….we deal with the way things are, not some idealistic version of reality…I’m OK with that. We need venues that point in a better direction…and part of that is recognizing what is the wrong direction…..

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  58. Sammy —

    He’s bragging.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTACH1eVIaA

    Appalled (1a17de)

  59. The story abut him wanting to leave the Republican Party runs from 5:22 to 6:42 on the first video.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  60. Appalled @59.

    He’s bragging.

    Yes, that he could shoot someone and he wouldn’t lose any voters.

    I think he may have repeated the thought more than once. I remember a different sound clip.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  61. R.I.P. Dean Stockwell, 85

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  62. Trump wasn’t endorsing it – he said it was amazing – he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue…

    It was a boast. He was basically saying “I’m so special, I can do whatever I want and get away with it.”

    What kind of person even thinks about how he could shoot someone and people wouldn’t care about the person shot because they’re unconditionally loyal to the shooter? What kind of person thinks it’s great to command such blind loyalty that people would throw out the most basic, universal moral rules for his sake?

    A sociopathic narcissist is who would do it — someone who thinks about right and wrong in terms of ego or personal gain.

    What’s weirder is how many people are so committed to stroking the ego of a sociopathic narcissist.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  63. He’s bragging.

    What he does best.

    nk (1d9030)

  64. @63 the SNL fake trump actually shot someone dead

    they replaced him with a new fake trump, and the same losers are laughing at the same loser jokes

    so i guess that proves trump was right

    JF (e1156d)

  65. “Trump wasn’t endorsing it”

    Forget it, Sam, they’re perma-mad because it’s ultimately true. Trump is popular because he stands as a threat to the tyrants these simpering nobodies would rather profit off of than face down, because ultimately they hate the peasants more than they disagree intellectually with the dictator.

    They invoke images of the mob against Caucescu in the vain hope that ‘the people’ will repeat the image, knowing nothing of the context, history, or feelings that led to the takedown. Imagine if they went as far as even reading the Leftypedia article, biased by Communist editing as it is!

    “Upon his rise to power, he eased press censorship and openly condemned the Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia in his speech on 21 August 1968, which resulted in a surge in popularity. However, the resulting period of stability was brief as his government soon became totalitarian and was considered the most repressive in the Eastern Bloc at the time. His secret police, the Securitate, was responsible for mass surveillance as well as severe repression and human rights abuses within the country, and controlled the media and press. Economic mismanagement due to failed oil ventures during the 1970s led to skyrocketing foreign debts for Romania. Ceaușescu’s attempts to implement policies that would lead to a significant growth of the population led to a growing number of unsafe abortions and increased the number of orphans in state institutions. In 1982, Ceaușescu directed the government to export much of the country’s agricultural and industrial production in an effort to repay these debts. The shortages that followed drastically lowered living standards, leading to heavy rationing of food, water, oil, heat, electricity, medicine and other necessities.

    Those all sound very familiar to anyone living in the US for the past three decades, whether it’s the neocon ‘failed oil ventures’, the neolib ‘mass surveillance’, or the bipartisan ‘growth of the population’ (though obviously nowadays both sides prefer doing it via mass immigration rather than abortion restrictions, and Orban has proven his ability to do a safer and saner version of native population growth while remaining against the rising refugee tide, since his aim is the interests of common Romanians rather than becoming COMMUNIST WORLD POWER VIA HOME HUMAN RESOURCE PRODUCTION.)

    And we’re heavily into the ‘rationing’ phase already! Tell me, do you think any mobs mad about that are going to go to Mar-a-Lago? Was it the Chamber of Commerce whose will ousted Nicky C?

    This is why liberals who go on and on about Trump should always, always, ALWAYS be ignored, and mocked, in the same way that you’d mock a man who kept crying 5 years later about the girl that rejected him, showing you his doodles where he murders her for sport, and compares every new thing to her BETRAYAL.

    They have no one-to-one human or historical comparisons to make that don’t break down immediately as soon as you look at them harder. They are monomaniacs, they are obsessives, they are liars, they are false teachers, they treat all organic popularity and charisma as a revolt against themselves (it is in general, but usually not them specifically,) and they are destined for the hell that awaits all those who had good things in life but spared not a single thought for the poor and needy right outside their gates.

    Those who fail to confront them, to call them out, to not allow their lazy formulations to slide, are doing them no good service.

    Service Agennt (2b7f63)

  66. biden can fart on the next queen and not lose any voters

    JF (e1156d)

  67. Certainly complaining about Trump may only be therapeutic

    There’s something to that. In the past, as I recall, you could criticize G.W. Bush or any other Republican in conservative forums, and you wouldn’t be excommunicated or called unpatriotic. In today’s GOP and most of conservative media, criticism of Trump is treated as the greatest of sins.

    People of conservative inclination who dislike Trump naturally gravitated to the very few places where it’s okay to be appalled by Trump while not much liking the Dem agenda either. It should be obvious that this is one of those places, but it’s still frequented by a few people who are very hurt and offended that some people don’t support their hero unconditionally and don’t like the way an entire political party is devoted first of all to pleasing his ego.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  68. New York values.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. New York values.

    Let it happen on 6th Avenue.

    Radegunda (496b04)

  70. R.I.P. Max Cleland, 79

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. Who believes COVID misinformation? In the United States, it is far more likely to be Republicans.
    For example:

    65 percent of Republicans say the government is exaggerating the death rate from the coronavirus, compared to just 4 percent of Republicans who have heard that claim and say it’s false. (In fact, the number of excess deaths compared with a normal year suggest the death rates are largely undersold.)

    Those on the left are also misinformed, but in different ways:

    Republicans, of course, aren’t the only ones who believe false things about the coronavirus. In addition to the (albeit smaller) number of Democrats who believe any of these claims, polls have shown the left is more apt to significantly overstate the risk of the virus. Where the GOP differs is in its embrace not of faulty risk calculations, but of conspiracy theories with no basis — and often without many of them reaching the any conclusion.

    We should recognize that the Republican error is far more likely to lead to deaths of Republicans and everyone they come in contact with. Which is exactly what is happening in Texas and Florida.

    Some weeks ago, one of the commenters over at Political Betting observed that Governor DeSantis was killing his own voters. That’s putting it in too extreme a way for me — but I recognize that there is some truth in the charge.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  72. #30 Kevin – I mentioned Pat Brown to show that this chicanery has been going on for a long, long time. And it is still going on; for example, Kamala Harris was involved in it, quite recently.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  73. “In the past, as I recall, you could criticize G.W. Bush or any other Republican in conservative forums, and you wouldn’t be excommunicated or called unpatriotic. In today’s GOP and most of conservative media, criticism of Trump is treated as the greatest of sins.”

    “Why was criticizing someone who governed unconservatively, chose Supreme Court justices poorly, and led to a massive loss afterward permitted on conservative forums but criticizing someone who governed more conservatively than anyone else, always had coattails in any election where he was on the ballot, and fundamentally shifted the Supreme Court in a conservative direction not allowed?”

    THE MIND IS BOGGLED, IT’S A MYSTERY

    People of conservative inclination who dislike Trump

    It’s somehow even worse than ‘people of color’ as a manufactured identity.

    “naturally gravitated to the very few places where it’s okay to be appalled by Trump while not much liking the Dem agenda either.”

    Yes, and that agenda being “We don’t like Trump because he didn’t double down hard enough on GWB’s most politically unpopular and damaging positions regarding immigration and trade!” deserves to remain niche, a stockyard for passers-by to gawk and laugh.

    “It should be obvious that this is one of those places, but it’s still frequented by a few people who are very hurt and offended that some people don’t support their hero unconditionally and don’t like the way an entire political party is devoted first of all to pleasing his ego.”

    Those who failed at learning anything from the reckoning are going to be treated like the “Lets Go Hitler” people circa 1946 or “Go, Go, Hirohito” guys on the island around 1947.

    Service Agennt (b45c3e)

  74. @Service Agennt You should remember ne thing: Trump lost, and unless there are more people inclined to vote for liberal/progressive Democrats than Republicans (and there are not because Republicans won down ballot races where Trump was not a factor) that means he lost more or less conservative votes.

    Sammy Finkelman (c49738)

  75. #74 Already, by 2017, George W. Bush’s favorability rating was up to 59 percent, far higher than Trump’s have ever been.

    Maybe most voters actually like Bush’s policies — especially after they have seen the alternatives.

    (Oh, and George W. Bush won re-election, unlike Trump.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  76. Bush seemed a much better president than Trump, and probably Obama. I know leftists who would have traded Trump for W in a shot.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. “You should remember one thing: Trump lost, and unless there are more people inclined to vote for liberal/progressive Democrats than Republicans (and there are not because Republicans won down ballot races where Trump was not a factor) that means he lost more or less conservative votes.”

    This analysis is poor, and manifestly not borne out by evidence. The GOP lost the Senate and took back the House because the loci of fraud were all at the state level. So a strong popular President who had traditionally empowered down-ballot races (leading to the full capture of Florida as a Republican stronghold due to strong city performance)

    Trump somehow won all previous multi-decade bellwether counties while simultaneously losing at the swing state level in areas that were either Democrat-controlled or run by the most feckless and corporate-dependent “Republicans” ever seen (Georgia).

    There was absolutely a level of corporate-motivated vote fraud attempted and gotten away with due to Covid mail-in ballots that would never have flown in any other year. The denials of that evidence so far haven’t passed the minimum laugh or smell test.

    “Every leading indicator said Trump would win but…uhh…massive population churn and the sudden importance of….uh…very specific blue cities in swing states that were…uh…dependent on his approval among white liberal suburban voters, who very much loved what Black Lives Matter did to their cities!”

    Even if true, will any of those voters admit to having done so today, nine months after people who governed exactly like thieves and incompetents who lucked into a steal are now desperately trying to hold things together? Do the polls truly bear this analysis out? Can you take this analysis to the bank for future elections or, as the Youngkin and Jersey example shows, does it come back marked “Insufficient funds”?

    The simplest explanation is usually the best, and the simplest explanation is that Democrats have and will cheat in any election where they can get away with it, and Virginia probably went to Trump as well in 2020.

    Service Agennt (bd4109)

  78. He has the balls of a Democrat, I’ll give him that.

    It would be impossible for anyone but Trump to have the “balls of a Republican” because Trump has them all in a drawer.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. 74,000,000 populist pro trump republican party

    Trump never got a majority of the GOP vote in any GOP primary, until it was clearly over in late April 2016 and voters “went with the winner” as people often do. He was so fearful of a primary challenge in 2020 that he got the party to cancel most of them.

    It’s too bad there aren’t two columns for votes: YES and “If I must”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. Who believes COVID misinformation? In the United States, it is far more likely to be Republicans.

    If Trump was president, the Republicans would all be vaxxed and the Democrats & the media would be talking about not trusting the government. There some people here who I would expect to see switch.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. If true, it will at least give him a clue as to why so many are anti-mandate.

    There’s a fund that pays damages for severe vaccine reactions (not just this one) and for GBS the damages paid average $350,000.

    Make that public and you might see more people sign up for vaccines (and a lot of false GBS claims).

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. many Trump loyalists would bepretzel themselves

    Radegunda,

    I don’t care if you’re anonymous or famous, or both. Your writing dazzles me.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  83. #80 Kevin – To add to your argument: After the 2016 election, I looked over the swing states Trump had won, and concluded, tentatively, that in some of them his margins had come from “reverse coattails”. For example, in Florida, a Republican voter might go to the polls to vote for Marco Rubio, and then decide he might as well vote for the “Republican” for president, too.

    (That theory would explain some of the polling oddities, too.)

    #81 Kevin – I fear you are right — and it isn’t good for America that we have become so polarized, however happy it makes the AOCs and MTGs among us.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  84. Conservatives are fundamentally reality based….we deal with the way things are…

    Not lately.

    It’s a populist-driven party now.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  85. bepretzel is a great word.

    Dustin (150498)

  86. Exactly, Dustin. I’m totally using it from now on.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  87. trump should wait for nevertrumpers to start their third party

    then we can come here and read how that’s just the most awesome idea ever

    JF (e1156d)

  88. There was absolutely a level of corporate-motivated vote fraud attempted and gotten away with due to Covid mail-in ballots that would never have flown in any other year. The denials of that evidence so far haven’t passed the minimum laugh or smell test.

    Prove it. The denials that you don’t like are irrelevant because you’re burden-shifting. You’re alleging fraud, you make the case.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  89. In today’s GOP and most of conservative media, criticism of Trump is treated as the greatest of sins.

    Some are worse than others. If you diss Trump at Instapundit, his many many partisans will pounce (and downvote), but Reynolds won’t ban you unless you step over certain lines (e.g. virulent anti-semitism). There are other places where you don’t stay long if you burst the bubble. It took me one post at Gateway pundit, although I must admit I didn’t pull any punches.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. trump should wait for nevertrumpers to start their third party

    If that is what it takes to ensure Trump does not get another term, then so be it. Winning isn’t everything.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  91. I would, however, dump the thieving, traitorous, rapist RINO (Trump) and return the party to sanity — as the preferred course.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. The real problem with starting a new party is that Trump’s goons would infiltrate it and attempt to subvert it. Perhaps you’d have to sign a contract upon joining, with a huge forfeit if you were a Trumpist.

    I’d start with “Do you reject Trump … And all his works … And all his empty promises?”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  93. To be fair, the GOP is not alone. In masked-up-by-law San Francisco, the heiress to the Getty fortune was getting married. Newsom and Pelosi, among others were in attendance. Very few people were masked. I’m surprised that L.A.’s Mayor Garcetti didn’t break quarantine to attend.

    Oddly, the mask police did not intervene like they did and In-N-Out.

    Pictures:

    https://notthebee.com/article/our-ruling-elites-are-really-weird

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  94. I don’t care if you’re anonymous or famous, or both. Your writing dazzles me.
    norcal (b9a35f)

    Gee, you’re laying it on thick. But I’ll take it.
    And I’ll take credit for “bepretzel.” It’s one of my best inventions, aside from my elevated coleslaw formula.

    Radegunda (5c195e)

  95. Time123 (9f42ee) — 11/9/2021 @ 6:17 am

    my favorite was when Frosty and JF would make bets on how long it took to get someone to talk about Trump.

    Otherwise grown adults need to self-sooth and be validated. I laugh a little every time I see it and like to share the joy. I’m a giver.

    frosty (f27e97)

  96. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 11/9/2021 @ 6:32 pm

    Baptisms are more about accepting something than rejecting something. You’ll need a complete formulation.

    Otherwise you’ll let in all sorts. Even antifa knows the name of Trump and despises it.

    frosty (f27e97)

  97. Otherwise grown adults need to self-sooth and be validated. I laugh a little every time I see it and like to share the joy. I’m a giver.

    We still have a major political party in which leaders are saying the guy we’re supposedly silly to talk about is a shoe-in to be the next nominee and president.
    Candidates still boast about their loyalty to him — because that guy demands to be soothed and validated constantly.
    63% of the party’s voters believe that the party “should not be accepting of elected officials who are openly critical of” that person (according to a Pew poll).
    That party has been purging those who had a part in preventing that person from stealing an election he lost.
    A major party is dominated by someone who many times alleged that our system is corrupt and the election would be rigged even before the 2016 election as well as the 2020 election.
    And that person frequently makes public statements attacking people who wouldn’t help him steal an election and who weren’t 100% uncritically loyal to him.

    Right now, the alternative to the Dems is still a personality cult, centered on a pathological narcissist. He is still revered by “thinkers” I used to trust. My comments on that person (when he inserts himself into the news again, or is put there by loyalists) aren’t a way of soothing or validating myself. They arise from exasperation at his grip on the right-leaning political wing. He makes everything about himself, and so do his legions of loyalists.

    Radegunda (930c70)

  98. When Trump announces he WON’T be running, and stops pressuring people to knuckle under to his cult, then I’ll shut up about him.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  99. When Trump announces he WON’T be running, and stops pressuring people to knuckle under to his cult, then I’ll shut up about him.

    Major points for being concise.
    I’ll shut up about him when he stops doing stuff like this:

    Former President Donald Trump ripped 13 congressional Republicans who backed a $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill during a lengthy speech Monday – while one of them, New York Rep. Nicole Malliotakis, listened from the audience.

    Malliotakis appeared visibly shaken as Trump railed against her and other Republican House members during the National Republican Congressional Committee dinner, a source told The Post.

    And when the GOP and the conservative commentariat decide that maybe he’s not the best champion of conservative values.

    Radegunda (47c2ed)

  100. My brevity stems from not being able to write as well as you.

    Points from Radegunda? Day made.

    norcal (b9a35f)

  101. Radegunda (47c2ed) — 11/10/2021 @ 1:39 pm

    I don’t want you to shut up. I don’t think I’ve asked for that. I’ve asked for consistency. That would be awesome. Something original would also be awesome. Otherwise, it’s another day of “Trump is bad”. Ok, I agree, now what?

    On this $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill; those R’s need to criticized. There is nothing “conservative” about that bill. I’ve got no issue with Malliotakis being shaken.

    Who is the best champion of conservative values speaking out against that bill? It’s not any of those 13 congressional Republicans.

    frosty (f27e97)


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