Patterico's Pontifications

8/23/2021

Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine Approved By FDA

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:12 am



[guest post by Dana]

One would think that Americans who refused to get a COVID-19 vaccine because they had not yet been approved by the U.S Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and were thus considered “experimental,” would be lining up today to get the Pfizer vaccine now that it has been granted full approval by the FDA (for people age 16 and older). But I think one would be foolish to think that:

–Dana

260 Responses to “Pfizer Covid-19 Vaccine Approved By FDA”

  1. More excuses.

    Dana (174549)

  2. One would think that Americans … would be lining up today

    One would think this would actually involve some stats about whether vaccine rates have changed, i.e. people are, or aren’t, lining up. Or maybe a poll? No sense waiting for those numbers though right?

    frosty (f27e97)

  3. Fox News’ Dr. Siegel says the ‘efficacy’ of these “vaccines” seems to be about 6 months. So it’s weak, rushed goop?? Vaccinated people still getting sick? [several U.S. senators w/Jesse Jackson & spouse as well for instance]… so we’re to expect booster after booster after booster to come, too, forever– as $$$$$$$$$ fill the coffers of ‘Pig’ Pharma????

    And it announced by a disengaged president with no credibility at all.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  4. Hopefully, this was based on an effective review and we’re not all sitting here in a year or two listening to people explain how the long-term effects were worth forcing everyone to get the shot.

    frosty (f27e97)

  5. Well, DCSCA, maybe even the Pill form won’t even pack enough punch…just your luck, the winner winner chicken dinner will be what these detectives are talking about.

    urbanleftbehind (6a7cbb)

  6. @4. Thanks to the dummy-in-chief, their credibility is totally ‘shot.’ A dummy who has already told the world when he goofs, he’ll simply say, ‘I’m sorry.’ Heard that yet regarding Afghanistan? Nope.

    Skepticism rules the land these days.

    “Experiment with your own lives, damn it!” – Dr. Charles Dutton [David Wayne] ‘The Andromeda Strain’ 1971

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  7. @5. Doctor Joe sez: ‘take two aspirins and call me in the morning.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  8. From the FDA letter regarding approval of the vaccine:

    POSTMARKETING REQUIREMENTS UNDER SECTION 505(o)
    Section 505(o) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) authorizes FDA to require holders of approved drug and biological product applications to conduct postmarketing studies and clinical trials for certain purposes, if FDA makes certain findings required by the statute (section 505(o)(3)(A), 21 U.S.C. 355(o)(3)(A)).
    We have determined that an analysis of spontaneous postmarketing adverse events reported under section 505(k)(1) of the FDCA will not be sufficient to assess known serious risks of myocarditis and pericarditis and identify an unexpected serious risk of subclinical myocarditis.
    Furthermore, the pharmacovigilance system that FDA is required to maintain under section 505(k)(3) of the FDCA is not sufficient to assess these serious risks.
    Therefore, based on appropriate scientific data, we have determined that you are required to conduct the following studies:

    4. StudyC4591009,entitled“ANon-InterventionalPost-ApprovalSafetyStudyof the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine in the United States,” to evaluate the occurrence of myocarditis and pericarditis following administration of COMIRNATY.
    We acknowledge the timetable you submitted on August 21, 2021, which states that you will conduct this study according to the following schedule:
    Final Protocol Submission: August 31, 2021
    Monitoring Report Submission: October 31, 2022
    Interim Report Submission: October 31, 2023
    Study Completion: June 30, 2025
    Final Report Submission: October 31, 2025

    5. StudyC4591021,entitled“PostConditionalApprovalActiveSurveillanceStudy Among Individuals in Europe Receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech Coronavirus

    Disease 2019 (COVID-19) Vaccine,” to evaluate the occurrence of myocarditis and pericarditis following administration of COMIRNATY.
    We acknowledge the timetable you submitted on August 21, 2021, which states that you will conduct this study according to the following schedule:
    Final Protocol Submission: August 11, 2021
    Progress Report Submission: September 30, 2021
    Interim Report 1 Submission: March 31, 2022
    Interim Report 2 Submission: September 30, 2022
    Interim Report 3 Submission: March 31, 2023
    Interim Report 4 Submission: September 30, 2023
    Interim Report 5 Submission: March 31, 2024
    Study Completion: March 31, 2024
    Final Report Submission: September 30, 2024

    6. StudyC4591021substudytodescribethenaturalhistoryofmyocarditisand pericarditis following administration of COMIRNATY.
    We acknowledge the timetable you submitted on August 21, 2021, which states that you will conduct this study according to the following schedule:
    Final Protocol Submission: January 31, 2022
    Study Completion: March 31, 2024
    Final Report Submission: September 30, 2024

    7. StudyC4591036,aprospectivecohortstudywithatleast5yearsoffollow-upfor potential long-term sequelae of myocarditis after vaccination (in collaboration with Pediatric Heart Network).
    We acknowledge the timetable you submitted on August 21, 2021, which states that you will conduct this study according to the following schedule:
    Final Protocol Submission: November 30, 2021
    Study Completion: December 31, 2026
    Final Report Submission: May 31, 2027

    8. StudyC4591007substudytoprospectivelyassesstheincidenceofsubclinical myocarditis following administration of the second dose of COMIRNATY in a subset of participants 5 through 15 years of age.
    We acknowledge the timetable you submitted on August 21, 2021, which states that you will conduct this assessment according to the following schedule:
    Final Protocol Submission: September 30, 2021
    Study Completion: November 30, 2023
    Final Report Submission: May 31, 2024

    9. StudyC4591031substudytoprospectivelyassesstheincidenceofsubclinical myocarditis following administration of a third dose of COMIRNATY in a subset of participants 16 to 30 years of age.
    We acknowledge the timetable you submitted on August 21, 2021, which states that you will conduct this study according to the following schedule:
    Final Protocol Submission: November 30, 2021
    Study Completion: June 30, 2022
    Final Report Submission: December 31, 2022

    https://www.fda.gov/media/151710/download

    Post approval seems like a good time to study drug induced heart maladies.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  9. 3. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 8/23/2021 @ 11:26 am

    Fox News’ Dr. Siegel says the ‘efficacy’ of these “vaccines” seems to be about 6 months.

    No reason you should believe that. That seems to be based on antibody levels in the bloodstream – but there are memory cells (which a few diseases, like measles, attack.)

    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/measles-vaccine-protect-disease-immune-amnesia

    Measles not only weakens your immune system in the short term, bouts with the virus seem to wipe your immune system’s memory, causing the body to forget how to fight off things that you may have already conquered. For some people, this so-called immune amnesia may linger for months to years after an infection.

    And not just measles, although I can;t find a link now.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  10. Of course this could just mean that the drug approval process was all about saving the drug bureaucracy’s rear end – it’s easier to allow people to die rather than make a decision which could end up making them look bad. Every since the Thalidomide tragedy, it’s taken forever to get new drugs out to the public.

    MikeGiles (86cc26)

  11. @10 To be fair, the number of hours the FDA staff has put into this approval process in such a shot time is impressive.

    whembly (0ae2ca)

  12. BuDuh, I have to ask: Do you think the risk of quick approval is justified by the 100s or thousands of lives saved? Followup: If so, was initial emergency use authorization unreasonably delayed?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  13. 29. Tell it to Jesse Jackson and his wife….or Senators Lindsey Graham, Angus King, Roger Wicker, John Hickenlooper… or reps Sharice Davids, Vern Buchanan, Clay Higgins, Ralph Norman… or Texas gov., Abbott, etc., etc.,… – all vaccinated and all still got the bug. ‘Pig’ Pharma is making millions off the government for this– just like the war profiteers have done in Afghanistan– lest you forget the $85 billion of weaponry abandoned to the ‘enemy’– and the $2.26 trillion blown there over 20 years. ‘Pig’ Pharma wants a piece of that action!

    Skepticism rules the land, Sammy– incompetence is the ‘rule f law’ in government now — and a sa old CiC with absolutely no credibility isn’t reassuring.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  14. I’m one of those that is not going to take the shot.
    I think I’ve had Covid.
    I think the science has been rushed, and want to see the long term effects of the mRNA vaccines.
    When everyone tells me I’m a “bad person” for having doubts, I wonder why they care so much about me taking it.

    I’ve been a scientist for 30 years, I’m happy to be part of the unvaccinated control group.

    Thanks for the time in reading this.

    Joe (7b911f)

  15. Pfizer had the viral genome January 2020. They had a vaccine candidate no later than March 2020. In April, they started Phase I testing (does this kill people? If not, does it seem to show some benefit?). The entered Phase 3 trials last November, after it had been shown to be safe and effective in Phase II trials, and became available for emergency use at year’s end.

    During that time, almost 400,000 Americans had died of Covid. Was the FDA remiss in not approving emergency use earlier?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  16. I think the science has been rushed, and want to see the long term effects of the mRNA vaccines.

    1) You can get the J&J vaccine which does not use mRNA methogs.
    2) How many people would have to die before you’d decide that “rushing” the vaccine approval was correct?
    3) You think you’ve had Covid? But you obviously don’t know. And you expect us to be impressed with your information gathering, or your fact-free conclusions?
    4) Will you quit your job if they mandate a vaccine?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  17. Suppose the 2020 election hinged on one issue: vaccines. One candidate said “I will get vaccines out as fast a possible” while the other one said “This needs several years of testing still.”

    I submit it wouldn’t have been close.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. Do you think the risk of quick approval is justified by the 100s or thousands of lives saved?

    I’m not sure I understand the question. The EUA allowed the vaccine to be administered. The EUA continues. Aren’t those saved lives without risk of being denied the vaccine with or without FDA approval?

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  19. Re 16:

    -2: From a science perspective, science takes time. From a policy perspective that’s a great question. 90% survival rate suggests a different response vs. a 50% survival rate or 99.8 %.
    -3 I have not had the test for antibodies, you are correct, I’m not saying I’ve had it, just symptoms consistent with it.
    -4 I will use my past vaccination response (polio booster 1993) to argue that I’m medically disqualified for the shot and/or religious exemption.

    Joe (7b911f)

  20. @14. Bingo. Thing is, your CiC keeps blaming “you” as the “bad guy” repeating over and over– and again today– that it’s ‘the pandemic of the unvaccinated.’ You’re to blame, not some butterfingered Chinaman who dropped a test tube.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  21. @9. Interesting facts about measles. The measles vaccine seems to improve this problem: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28646947/
    Vaccinations are an important part of health. Smallpox has been wiped out, and the ravages of polio have been greatly reduced. Diphtheria is down to two cases per decade. Cervical cancer death rates are halved. There is encouraging news about a possible malaria vax.
    The covid vaccines appeared rapidly because substantial groundwork was done looking for SARS and Ebola vaccines.
    Let’s not be too negative all the time.

    Fred (10416e)

  22. British Medical Journal – Covid-19: FDA set to grant full approval to Pfizer vaccine without public discussion of data

    “ Transparency advocates have criticised the US Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) decision not to hold a formal advisory committee meeting to discuss Pfizer’s application for full approval of its covid-19 vaccine.

    Last year the FDA said it was “committed to use an advisory committee composed of independent experts to ensure odeliberations about authorisation or licensure are transparent for the public.”1 But in a statement, the FDA told The BMJ that it did not believe a meeting was necessary ahead of the expected granting of full approval.”

    The vaccine has already been rolled out to millions of Americans through an emergency use authorisation. Companies typically apply for full approval after a longer period has elapsed so that more data are available for review.

    But with the US government indicating this week that it plans to start making booster shots widely available next month, experts said the decision not to meet to discuss the data was politically driven.

    Kim Witczak, a drug safety advocate who serves as a consumer representative on the FDA’s Psychopharmacologic Drugs Advisory Committee,4 said the decision removed an important mechanism for scrutinising the data.

    “These public meetings are imperative in building trust and confidence especially when the vaccines came to market at lightning speed under emergency use authorisation,” she said. “The public deserves a transparent process, especially as the call for boosters and mandates are rapidly increasing. These meetings offer a platform where questions can be raised, problems tackled, and data scrutinised in advance of an approval.”

    Witczak is one of the more than 30 signatories of a citizen petition5 calling on the FDA to refrain from fully approving any covid-19 vaccine this year to gather more data. She warned that without a meeting “we have no idea what the data looks like.”

    “It is already concerning that full approval is being based on 6 months’ worth of data despite the clinical trials designed for two years,” she said. “There is no control group after Pfizer offered the product to placebo participants before the trials were completed.“

    https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2086

    Obudman (105fbe)

  23. @19. Same here. Feb., 2020. Was sick for a month- same symptoms later defined as Covid, before the particular ere sorted out. After the Swine Flu debacle in ’75-’76, when we watched friends in PA get sicker than all hell from rushed bad government goop, the family has avoided all ‘government shots’ – even the flu shots; practiced good hygiene and remained watchful and wary since. We’re healthy. Just skeptical.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  24. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:01 pm

    How many people would have to die

    That’s a mighty high moral ground you’ve found for yourself. Do you get the cool wristbands when you get to the top?

    you expect us to be impressed

    I don’t think anyone expects you to be impressed with anything less than how efficiently these unvaxxed can be rounded up.

    frosty (f27e97)

  25. When everyone tells me I’m a “bad person” for having doubts, I wonder why they care so much about me taking it.

    Because the collective result of that choice write large in Texas is lack of ICU beds for people that need them.

    Regarding this point.

    -4 I will use my past vaccination response (polio booster 1993) to argue that I’m medically disqualified for the shot and/or religious exemption

    I believe we should allow people with legitimate religious objections to opt out of the vaccine. But it needs to be sincere. The fastest way to convince the public not to do so will be a horde of people insincerely claiming that they’ve found a new ternate of faith that was 100% absent from their lives a year ago.

    Religious liberty is no more absolute then any other. You can’t claim that you religion mandates freedom of movement and be released from jail (to pick a silly example). Part of what supports it is the public’s respect for faith. If you start lying about that faith (as. Evidenced by your polio booster) and other’s follow alongI’d expect the public loose sympathy with the argument in general.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  26. @20, they both are. They’re both to blame.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  27. Go look at county level data in Florida. Counties with high (90%) vaccine rates have very low deaths from Covid as well as low hospitalization rates. If the consequence of covid was “Ok you feel like crap” and not “What’s the best way to ration hospital beds” we could re-open schools and the economy and get back to normal.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  28. Texas ICU beds are filled with Biden’s illegal aliens. They’re worth more to him than Americans.

    Doesn’t help when Houston hospitals fire the unvaccinated that have worked in the trenches the past 2 years.

    NJRob (d04bba)

  29. @25 umm yeah, meanwhile…

    https://abcstlouis.com/news/nation-world/a-rise-in-covid-19-cases-at-the-us-mexico-border

    a president who lets this happen on his watch while harping about vaccine mandates is a lying POS

    JF (e1156d)

  30. we could re-open schools and the economy and get back to normal.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:24 pm

    We can re-open schools just fine. There’s just a prevailing political will not to right now.

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  31. @16. It’s your decision to get vaccinated- and if you are/do- and did early on, believed you were safe- so what’s the beef if others choose not to? You’re inoculated and people can manage their own lives. But now that it’s clear these early vaccines lack ‘efficacy’ as people can still get sick anyway- and ‘Pig’ Pharma chases a bug that keeps mutating- which is profiting quite well off same, the angst seems to fall on your shoulders, not the unvaccinated. Those who chose to avid the early goop have chosen to manage their own lives. Pretty much all of the key demo -65 and older- has been jabbed as is anyway. This has become a crisis of confidence; poor management and messy political issue, not a matter of sound medical practice. Pinpointing the source of this would have gone a long way to making it easier to ‘work the problem.’ Instead, there’s been 18 months of CYA bureaucrats geopolitical games. Incompetence and skepticism is ‘the rule of law’ today. Fauci and a whispery old CiC really lack credibility anymore.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  32. @30, Data out of TX and FL doesn’t really support that.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  33. @26. No. Blaming the ‘unvaccinated’ only riles up division and a loud ‘Fvck you, Joe’ response from Americans who have the right to manage their own lives. They ain’t stopping others from getting jabbed.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:19 pm

    You can’t claim that you religion mandates freedom of movement and be released from jail (to pick a silly example).

    You can’t use a religious exception to get out of jail because being in jail is the result of a long process involving things like due process.

    Vaccine mandates are not the result of due process. Would you have thought 2 years ago the government had the authority to compel vaccinations? If someone told you that you’d need vaccine cards to work would you have thought the person a crackpot or a serious legal scholar?

    There’s no need to rely on “legitimate religious objections” because there’s no moral justification for 100% mandatory vaccinations.

    frosty (f27e97)

  35. @31, hospitalization and death rates are very different based on vax status

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  36. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:19 pm

    Because the collective result of that choice write large in Texas is lack of ICU beds for people that need them.

    What do you think the normal ICU bed utilization is? 20%? Maybe 30%?

    frosty (f27e97)

  37. #2 and #14 From a medical science point of view, I am glad that you have decided to be in the control group; from a human point of view, I hope you change your minds. If you continue to choose the first, you may provide some useful data; if you choose the second, you may protect yourself and others from a dangerous disease. And lessen the time we have to have restrictions.

    Oh, and unfortunately this must be said: Much of the disinformation on vaccines comes, indirectly, from Putin’s pals. I don’t doubt, for example, that the Russians are emphasizing swine flu problems — and saying nothing about the many triumphs of vaccines, all through American history.

    For instance, Jefferson directed Lewis and Clark to take smallpox vaccine with them to give to any Indians who wanted to reduce the dangers of that disease. (Conditions may have made it ineffective, but Jefferson had the right idea — and experimental evidence to support it.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  38. @35. Irrelevant– who says the data is even accurate, comin from CYA agencies and bureaucrats: see Andrew Cuomo for details.

    Credibility for so many venues across the board is dying before your eyes. If Joe truly cared about the health of America- he’d resign tonight.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  39. Re:25

    Who gets to decide sincerity of religious beliefs. Who could claim that authority?

    Joe (7b911f)

  40. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:40 pm

    @30, Data out of TX and FL doesn’t really support that.

    Is there data that would? Maybe an acceptable case rate?

    frosty (f27e97)

  41. Joe (7b911f) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    My guess is it would involve people for whom the words legitimate and religious aren’t normally used in the same sentence. And who also wouldn’t use the words legitimate and objections in the context of something the government wants to do.

    frosty (f27e97)

  42. #38 – Well, we know the data coming from Donald’s friend, “Czar” Putin, is inaccurate, as is the data coming from “Emperor” Xi. Are the Russia and China bureaucracies the ones you mean?

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  43. Vaccine mandates are not the result of due process. Would you have thought 2 years ago the government had the authority to compel vaccinations? If someone told you that you’d need vaccine cards to work would you have thought the person a crackpot or a serious legal scholar?

    You mean like the requirement that I be vaccinated against certain diseases to live in campus housing for college or the requirements that my kids be vaccinated to attend school? I’d probably be annoyed that I had to find those records but that’s about it. How about you? Did you pitch a fit when they made you show your immunization records for on campus housing?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  44. @39, Either the administrative agency charged with enforcing the rule or, if you disagreed with the decision, whatever court you brought suit it. The issue of when a religious objection justifies an exception to a rule has been come up before. I didn’t invent the idea of a difference between a sincere objection and a pretextual one in this comment thread.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  45. @38 I forgot talking to you is pointless. Sorry.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  46. jab joe/2024

    mg (8cbc69)

  47. 41… you’re pissing up a rope if you think that registers with the self-anointed arbiters.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  48. people who voted for – worse than trump – are highly sophisticated and most assuredly vaxed.

    mg (8cbc69)

  49. #34 frosty – “Would you have thought 2 years ago the government had the authority to compel vaccinations? If someone told you that you’d need vaccine cards to work would you have thought the person a crackpot or a serious legal scholar?”

    Sure. Governments have been compelling public school children to get vaccines for decades — with exemptions for religious beliefs. (Recently Washington state removed an exemption for philosophical reasons, after an outbreak of measles imported from Ukraine.)

    And soldiers are required to get many vaccinations. I believe I saw recently that they can get as 17 different vaccines if they are going to serve in some disease-infested place.

    That said, I am not in favor of mass vaccinations of the public — but I am in favor of requiring, as a condition of employment, vaccinations for those who work in hospitals, nursing homes, and those government employees who interact with the public regularly.

    (If you are interested in the legalities, you might want to research court decisions on mandated mass vaccines and quarantines, early in our history, and around 1900. And you might want to look at the instructive case of Mary Fallon.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  50. The street cred of worse than trump voters is high in China.

    mg (8cbc69)

  51. Jim, thank you for the Tim on Mary Fallon, looks like interesting reading.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  52. Re: 44
    I fear that might be correct.

    I don’t see how a “comitee “ would be able to evaluate the sincerity about anybody’s opinion on anything.

    But while I agree it would end up in court, by that point it will be painfully obvious that the vaccine doesn’t work and the disease is endemic.

    Joe (7b911f)

  53. #51 Time123 – Here’s the Wikipedia biography of Mary Mallon, aka “Typhoid Mary”.

    (Credit where due. The Wikipedia search routine gave me a correct alternative, even after I spelled her last name wrong. Have to remember to give them my small, but regular, donation at the end of the year.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  54. @30, Data out of TX and FL doesn’t really support that.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:40 pm

    Why? Does that data from TX and FL show that the schools are the source of transmission? Are the public schools there turning into huge superspreader events?

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  55. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/23/2021 @ 2:05 pm

    You mean like the requirement that I be vaccinated against certain diseases to live in campus housing for college or the requirements that my kids be vaccinated to attend school? I’d probably be annoyed that I had to find those records but that’s about it. How about you? Did you pitch a fit when they made you show your immunization records for on campus housing?

    There are two different issues here:

    1) All of the vaccination records you mentioned are for long-standing well know vaccines and well-studied viruses. They are for viruses that are generally stable and don’t mutate. I’m not aware of any requirements for the flu vaccine and the flu is a better epidemiological comparison to COVID than something like MMR.

    2) Were you required to live in campus housing or did you have the option of living off-campus? Did you have the option of homeschooling your kids? The option of a non-public school with different requirements?

    Leaving aside 1 since this is obviously a moot point for people who’ve assumed the COVID vaccines are perfectly fine and aren’t interested in the differences in vaccines. We’re playing word games with 2. We’re pretending that these mandatory vaccines are only for employment and hoping no one notices the implied “all”. Same for schools. Same for practically every type of commercial transaction. In the other thread, you’re making a distinction about this being NYC employees. You’re ignoring that NYC will require workers and customers show proof of at least one dose for indoor dining and other activities.

    The embedded lie is that people like KM fully intend for the COVID mandates to apply to everyone for everything.

    frosty (f27e97)

  56. Re #28, go tell that goofball Lt. Governor, he’s convinced it’s the 13/90 crowd (which actually is 13% of TX population). And bring receipts.

    urbanleftbehind (6a7cbb)

  57. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 8/23/2021 @ 2:18 pm

    And soldiers are required to get many vaccinations

    Again, we’re playing word games and 3-card monty with shifting definitions. People volunteer for the military. You can always not join and you don’t have to worry about the vaccines. You can fall back on the draft but if you’re justifying the draft pesky things like individual freedom is a dot in the rear-view mirror.

    interested in the legalities, you might want to research court decisions

    So, the flippant response is to cite Dred Scott or Korematsu to pick some easy ones. All of those we’re “good” legal decisions until they weren’t.

    frosty (f27e97)

  58. Tim on Mary Fallon

    I hope they both enjoyed it!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  59. frosty – There are two sides to this problem, and you seem only to be looking at one side.

    Perhaps this simple example may help you see the other side: After I got my second Pfizer shot and waited the required weeks, the second day after the process was complete I got a haircut — which I needed. (The first day after I visited a book store.)

    The stylist told me then that she hadn’t decided to get vaccinated. Now, I am past time for another haircut, but I haven’t been able to figure out how to tell the shop that I don’t want one from anyone who isn’t fully vaccinated, don’t even want one in a shop with unvaccinated employees.

    Given my age and the Delta variant, that’s not an unreasonable requirement.

    Should the shop be able to protect customers like me by requiring its employees to be fully vaccinated? What if we are a majority of potential customers?

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  60. #59 frosty – Vaccines were required for soldiers during WW II, Korea, and Vietnam when we had drafts.

    And I wouldn’t be opposed to requiring them for jurors, now, even though they are not volunteers. And get paid very little.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  61. @45. Pity. It’s a fool’s errand to believe anything pooped out by this administration across all venues; they ooze incompetency like puss from a festering wound; their credibility completely “shot.”

    “I pity the fool.” – Clubber Lang [Mr. T] ‘Rocky III’ 1982

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  62. Glenn Kessler catches Joe Biden in another falsehood.

    Biden has been claiming that he has always been against “nation-building” in Afghanistan. But that’s not exactly true. For example:

    Oct. 16, 2003, at a Senate hearing: “The fact of the matter is, we’ve missed an opportunity to do what many of us on this committee, including the Senator about to sit down, have been pleading be done from the beginning. But because there has been this overwhelming reluctance on the part of some in the administration to get involved in genuine, quote, ‘nation-building,’ we essentially elected a mayor of Kabul and turned the rest over to the warlords, and we’re paying a price for it now.”

    And Kessler has other examples.

    (FWIW, Kessler may think that Bush erred by not following a consistent policy of nation-building in Afghanistan, from the beginning, though he doesn’t say that explicitly.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  63. 62… Biden’s inconsistencies and lies about nation-building were highlighted and covered by commenters here last week.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  64. Jim, again a good link. Thank you for sharing

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  65. 10. MikeGiles (86cc26) — 8/23/2021 @ 12:23 pm

    Of course this could just mean that the drug approval process was all about saving the drug bureaucracy’s rear end

    The drug approval process – even the changes in the drug approval process – is about never saying that any steps were unnecessary or that excellent shorter substitutes could be made. Their science is frozen, and it lags.

    – it’s easier to allow people to die rather than make a decision which could end up making them look bad.

    The vaccine approval process practically required people to die (or come close, but to be realistic, die) before the vaccine could be approved. It required that half the people be given the vaccine and half a placebo. Then you sit back and wait and see if a lot less people in the vaccinated group die. (or come close)

    Now there are other ways to do that. You could measure antibody levels in both groups, and say if the vaccinated people have more, and comparable to that of people who recovered, that’s pretty good proof.

    Or you could even expose healthy volunteers to the virus. (if the vaccine works, they should be all right.

    Now what the FDA doesn’t want is to approve something and bad things happen to the people who take it. For all their super-precautions, it happens anyway. Any mistake which lets that happen reflects bad on them – any delay or disapproval of something that works, you don’t see so easily and they can say the delay was necessary.

    Every since the Thalidomide tragedy, it’s taken forever to get new drugs out to the public.

    Thalidomide started it , but things have gotten progressively worse since 1962.

    And then there’s the freely available cures that nobody takes the trouble to run through the system and nobody selling it is allowed to advertise.

    Like for migraines. Things get publicized literally decades after they’ve really been discovered,

    https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/mayo-clinic-q-and-a-oxygen-treatment-can-relieve-cluster-headaches

    Perhaps it is true that it depends on the exact type of headache. What should be sure is that it should be possible for people to figure this out.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  66. #63 Colonel – You’ll understand, I hope, if I confess that I do not read all comments — and only glance over comments from some certain regular commenters. But I have only so much time.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  67. The Hill – Biden calls on companies to mandate vaccines following FDA full approval

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/569044-biden-calls-on-companies-to-mandate-vaccines-following-fda-full-approval

    Obudman (105fbe)

  68. The 18-wheels are comin’ off Doctor Joe’s Medicine Show.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  69. There were twi or three things that were done to speeed up approval of the vaccines (qithout changing things)

    1. Phase II and Phase III trials conducted at the same time. But if you do Phase III trials, and they come out OK, you don’t need Phase II trials!

    2. The U.S. government ordering vaccines on spec – that they will be approved, and ordering more than they need, in case some didn’t get approved.

    3. Drug regulators working overtime.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  70. @67 this’ll make the anti-vax Karen’s blow a valve.

    Time123 (4bc460)

  71. Who gets to decide sincerity of religious beliefs. Who could claim that authority?

    Joe (7b911f) — 8/23/2021 @ 1:49 pm

    “Why won’t you get vaccinated?”
    “The Flying Spaghetti Monster told me it’s the white man’s poison!”

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  72. @67 this’ll make the anti-vax Karen’s blow a valve.

    Time123 (4bc460) — 8/23/2021 @ 4:12 pm

    Speaking as someone who’s likely had more vaccines pumped into my system the last ten years than you have, along with getting vaccines for all my kids, yes, I do find this obnoxiously authoritarian.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  73. @71 was hilarious.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  74. Biden going whole hog on Fascism.

    Give someone AIDS in Cali, no big deal, don’t show your papers for the Vax, you’re going to jail.

    Just a matter of time.

    NJRob (b838ca)

  75. I think you’re right NJRob. Urging employers to mandate their employees get vaccinated against a virulent and dangerous disease is the fist step. We’re probably only weeks away from all white Christians being rounded up and made to eat tide pods.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  76. I will use my past vaccination response (polio booster 1993) to argue that I’m medically disqualified for the shot and/or religious exemption.

    Well, since the polio shot is unrelated (differing in both type and method), you’d be wise to try the religion card. They might fire you anyway and you’d have to sue them and show how the religious belief was 1) sincere and 2) relevant.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  77. The anti-vaxx creed:

    1. Millions of people are allergic to vaccines.
    2. The vaccine isn’t tested enough (a perennial winner).
    3. Vaccines don’t work since people still get sick.
    4. Covid isn’t dangerous
    5. It’s my body.
    6. Who cares about anyone else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  78. I wonder what would happen if Mississippi mandated vaccines, with cow dewormers as the alternative. Probably the people taking the cow dewormers would stop and start up with ground glass or something.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. 3. Drug regulators working overtime.

    9 to 5 instead of 11 to 3.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. So, I’m going on flight this week. Masks on all the time, even between sips of coffee on the plane. And I’ll be thinking “Too bad we can’t just have vaccine passports and lock all those fools out of polite society.” I guess that makes me a fascist, not wanting to associate with the militantly stupid.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. @80. OTOH, the ‘militantly stupid’ masses aka [Americans] below may be equally glad you’re masked and hermetically sealed in an aluminum tube 45,000 feet up, up and away from them. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  82. @76

    I’m all for employers being able to require vaccination for their employees, and I’m against employees being able to wiggle out of it by claiming a religious exemption. Sure, you are free to practice your religion, but not at the expense of my freedom to minimize serious illness among my employees and customers. You do you and I’ll do me.

    Freedom is wonderful, unless some people are more free than others.

    norcal (a6130b)

  83. Time123,

    You don’t see a problem with the government dictating policy to businesses and trying to create a perpetual otherized class.

    Why am I not surprised.

    NJRob (b838ca)

  84. vaccines, fetal cell line HEK 293 was used during the research and development phase. All HEK 293 cells are descended from tissue taken from a 1973 abortion that took place in the Netherlands.

    For the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, fetal cell lines were used in the production and manufacturing stage. To make the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, scientists infect PER.C6 fetal cell lines to grow the adenovirus vector.

    NJRob (b838ca)

  85. I disagree this is “dictating” and I think your fears about a permanent other class are silly.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  86. Kevin, the cow de-worming thing was hilarious and made me wish I’d stretched more with my jokes about them eating urinal cake.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  87. Re 82:

    So are you comfortable with an employer require any other medical care? Any limits to that or just vaccines?

    Joe (7b911f)

  88. So many here forget the rule about the government coming for you until it’s your turn but then there’s no one left to defend you.

    But that makes sense because “not Trump.”

    NJRob (df9267)

  89. Or in this case the government urging employers to mandate their employees take a vaccine. Slight differences

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  90. @87, I know you asked Kevin but IMO it depends on impact to others. Less impact, less justified. Also, my employer gives me a discount on my health instead because I don’t smoke. Which is somewhat related as it’s also incentive for behavior.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  91. Re:90
    I can and do see the nuance there. I am not so sure what the limitations in lifestyle analysis that would cascade from that. But i understand the legitimacy of that POV.

    As a customer do I have the right to check the medical status of employees that I interact with? As an employer do I have the right to not hire anybody else that might sicken my customers?

    Precedence is a horrible thing.

    Joe (3512d6)

  92. As a customer you can ask. They don’t have to answer so it might be hard to get that information. I agree it’s a balancing question.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  93. So are you comfortable with an employer require any other medical care? Any limits to that or just vaccines?

    Joe (7b911f) — 8/23/2021 @ 6:40 pm

    Let’s say an employee has horrible, nasty, halitosis, and said employee has to interact with customers in close proximity. No breath mints or chewing gum will do the job, but a trip to the dentist for a deep cleaning and subgingival curettage will solve the problem. Then yes, I, as an employer, should have the right to condition continued employment on a trip to the dentist.

    You see, just as employees have the right to seek other employment any time they wish, I should have the right to seek other employees any time I wish. Freedom of association is a beautiful thing.

    norcal (a6130b)

  94. Re; 93.
    About to go to sleep. so feel free to ignore.
    What if they employee had hepatitis? Flu?
    And doesn’t the ADA protect those with halitosis and communicable diseases? Honest question. I am not a layer.

    Joe (3512d6)

  95. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 8/23/2021 @ 2:59 pm

    I’m sorry you’re having trouble finding a vaccinated barber. You know that even if you find one there’s still a risk of catching Covid? All that coercion and everyone giving up basic freedom and you only get a marginal improvement in your odds.

    For your other point, I’m familiar with the side your invoking. I’ve got no respect for it. Fear is not a moral justification. You’ve got no right to force someone to get a vaccine because you’re afraid. There’s even less justification to coerce people you’ll never meet. My rights aren’t subject to your fear.

    frosty (f27e97)

  96. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 8/23/2021 @ 3:07 pm

    And I wouldn’t be opposed to requiring them for jurors

    I can’t imagine a positive thing to say about someone this little respect for basic human rights. How would you expect that to work out if they refused the vaccine? Would they be held in contempt of court until they agreed or would they simply be forced to take the vaccine through more direct measures? Would you restrict voting to the vaccinated?

    frosty (f27e97)

  97. @67 this’ll make the anti-vax Karen’s blow a valve.

    Time123 (4bc460) — 8/23/2021 @ 4:12 pm

    It should cause everyone who isn’t an authoritarian fascist to be concerned. That it will be cheered by the perpetually afraid is the more likely outcome.

    frosty (f27e97)

  98. We’re probably only weeks away from all white Christians being rounded up and made to eat tide pods.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/23/2021 @ 4:49 pm

    You can laugh all you like. It’s textbook fascism coming from the lying hypocrites who go around calling everyone else nazis.

    frosty (f27e97)

  99. Sure, you are free to practice your religion, but not at the expense of my freedom to minimize serious illness among my employees and customers control people. You do you and I’ll do me.

    Freedom is wonderful, unless some people are more free than others.

    norcal (a6130b) — 8/23/2021 @ 5:59 pm

    FIFY. The funniest part is you added the you do you and I’ll do me right after you said exactly the opposite. Then you topped it with the more free line.

    frosty (f27e97)

  100. You see, just as employees have the right to seek other employment any time they wish, I should have the right to seek other employees any time I wish. Freedom of association is a beautiful thing.

    norcal (a6130b) — 8/23/2021 @ 7:50 pm

    There’s the lie being told. Because it isn’t people having the right to go somewhere else. You’ve ruled that out in @82. What your describing is a situation where people who don’t do what you want to make you feel safe are unemployable. You’re not advocating for freedom of association for anyone other than yourself.

    frosty (f27e97)

  101. So, I’m going on flight this week. Masks on all the time, even between sips of coffee on the plane. And I’ll be thinking “Too bad we can’t just have vaccine passports and lock all those fools out of polite society.” I guess that makes me a fascist, not wanting to associate with the militantly stupid.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/23/2021 @ 5:49 pm

    It makes you a lot of things. But if you’re embracing it the question is which sort of fascist? I’m guessing you’re going for the well dress meticulous kind with the good beer and the trains that run on time. But from your description it sounds more like the pasta loving poorly dressed can’t organize themselves into or out of North Africa kind.

    BTW; didn’t you get the memo? See, you’re not the meticulous fascist you imagine yourself to be. Even if everyone was vaccinated you’d have to wear a mask.

    frosty (f27e97)

  102. There’s the lie being told. Because it isn’t people having the right to go somewhere else. You’ve ruled that out in @82. What your describing is a situation where people who don’t do what you want to make you feel safe are unemployable. You’re not advocating for freedom of association for anyone other than yourself.

    frosty (f27e97) — 8/23/2021 @ 8:48 pm

    The only thing I ruled out was the ability of an employee to go against an employer’s wishes. A free market should cut both ways. Employees are free to leave at any time and seek an employer more to their liking. Likewise, employers should be free to seek employees that aren’t going to die because of their anti-vaccine stance.

    Unemployable? They could likely find a delusional employer who is also anti-vaccine, but if not, they can sell flowers at the side of the road.

    I am not in favor of government mandates for the vaccine. But should employers have that right? You bet. And, I’m all for insurance companies charging higher premiums or denying coverage for those who refuse the vaccine without a valid medical reason. Again, it’s the free market. Insurance companies can set parameters for their policies.

    norcal (a6130b)

  103. Freedom is wonderful, unless some people are more free than others.

    My freedom has a penumbra. Stay out of my cone of freedom, or else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. You don’t see a problem with the government dictating policy to businesses and trying to create a perpetual otherized class.

    Could you please point out where government is forcing businesses to adopt a vaccine mandate? I could name some places where government is preventing businesses from doing that. Is that OK?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. You don’t see a problem with the government dictating policy to businesses and trying to create a perpetual otherized class.

    “Stupid” IS a perpetual otherized class. “Ignorant” has some hope.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  106. So are you comfortable with an employer require any other medical care? Any limits to that or just vaccines?

    They do that now. When I had chicken pox, they were damn sure I was not returning to the workplace without a doctor’s clearance. Most schools require immunizations, and in California they have gotten pretty harsh about phony excuses. Doctors have been stricken off for writing false exemptions.

    And forget vaccines; test positive for Covid at your workplace and they will effing demand certain things be done.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  107. Even if everyone was vaccinated you’d have to wear a mask.

    Wait 3 weeks and see how this changes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  108. I can’t imagine a positive thing to say about someone this little respect for basic human rights

    There was a draft at one time in this country and very little attention was paid to the argument that conscription was a violation of rights. It was required, they said, for defense of the society. It was ended because of reasons having nothing to do with human rights.

    This is so many many orders of magnitude less of a demand, and yet people actually pay attention to the whiners.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  109. I’m sorry Kevin, but you’re wrong! Sometimes your penumbra just gets in the way!

    People should have the right to housing, even if they can’t “afford” the rent. And employees have a right to decide how unhealthy their workplaces should be. And they have a right not to get fired. And the unvaccinated have a right to health insurance that is the same price as insurance for the vaccinated. And the unvaccinated have just as much a right to an ICU bed as somebody who was just beaten up by gang bangers. If you disagree, then you just want to control people.

    We aren’t seeking to control landlords, employers, insurance companies, or hospitals at all! It’s everybody else trying to control us!

    norcal (a6130b)

  110. It’s textbook fascism coming from the lying hypocrites who go around calling everyone else nazis

    You’ve made it clear in other comments that you’re fine with requiring other vaccination for schools etc. So despite all your furry rhetoric about freedom it seems like you just don’t like /this/ vaccine.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  111. @109 that made me laugh.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  112. Heh! Like I have always said about vaccine rebels, what they really want is to be noticed by someone other than a female mosquito looking to get pregnant. It’s not freedom, it’s not rights, it’s not principles, it’s a pathetic search for significance by fleas threatening to be plague carriers. We can’t spray them with DDT, unfortunately, so let’s just get ourselves vaccinated and try as best as possible to associate with other vaccinated humans, and let Darwin provide the solution.

    nk (1d9030)

  113. 110. Should have been fiery rhetoric ….really need to proof read.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  114. This is so many many orders of magnitude less of a demand, and yet people actually pay attention to the whiners.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/24/2021 @ 12:20 am

    Someone unironically wanting vax passports just to be able to move in normal society is hardly in a position to be calling anyone else a whiner.

    My freedom has a penumbra. Stay out of my cone of freedom, or else.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/24/2021 @ 12:04 am

    LOL, or else what, tough guy? For someone who likes to talk a lot of smack about what a hairy-chested conservative they are, you sure are quick to say “how high?” when Mommy Government says “jump!”

    We can’t spray them with DDT, unfortunately, so let’s just get ourselves vaccinated and try as best as possible to associate with other vaccinated humans, and let Darwin provide the solution.

    nk (1d9030) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:03 am

    Nah, I’m not going to force my wife to get a vaccine even though I’ve been vaccinated. Sorry for rejecting your stupid little cult.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  115. Once Again, the president encouraging people to do a thing (in this case require employees to get vaccinated against a communicable disease) is not a government mandate.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  116. Nah, I’m not going to force my wife to get a vaccine even though I’ve been vaccinated.

    Heh, again! Ok, I’ll believe that you are the smallest minority of all, a man who could “force” (you did say “force”) his wife to do anything.

    But I don’t know how you got “force … to get a vaccine” from my “try as best as possible to associate with other vaccinated humans”. I must be writing in Greek and not realizing it.

    nk (1d9030)

  117. But there are government mandates on the MMR vaccine. Why aren’t you upset about that as violation of your freedom? Is there something specific about this vaccine that makes it categorically different and therefore a type of tyranny?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  118. But I don’t know how you got “force … to get a vaccine” from my “try as best as possible to associate with other vaccinated humans”. I must be writing in Greek and not realizing it.

    nk (1d9030) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:34 am

    Rather pathetic attempt at deflection from someone who said he wished he could spray people who didn’t COVID jabs with DDT.

    Once Again, the president encouraging people to do a thing (in this case require employees to get vaccinated against a communicable disease) is not a government mandate.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:33 am

    “Encouraging”

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  119. @116, is NK short for Nikolaos? 😉

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  120. No evidence has been produced that it’s more then encouragement.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  121. But there are government mandates on the MMR vaccine. Why aren’t you upset about that as violation of your freedom? Is there something specific about this vaccine that makes it categorically different and therefore a type of tyranny?

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:38 am

    I’m sorry, how long has the MMR vaccine been around again?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  122. No evidence has been produced that it’s more then encouragement.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:40 am

    More deflection.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  123. 116, is NK short for Nikolaos? 😉

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:39 am

    More like “No Knowledge”.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  124. @122, that’s not deflection, it’s a direct attack on your argument that this is being forced.

    @123 If the issue is your confidence in the vaccine then this isn’t a question of rights and freedom, It’s a question of whether mandating this particular vaccine is good policy.

    So, what about this vaccine, that you’ve repeatedly claimed you have, do you find objectionable? Can you make that case honestly without the rhetoric?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  125. @122, that’s not deflection, it’s a direct attack on your argument that this is being forced.

    Yes, we all know that the government only “encourages” when it wants something done.

    @123 If the issue is your confidence in the vaccine then this isn’t a question of rights and freedom, It’s a question of whether mandating this particular vaccine is good policy.

    It’s still not recommended to give the vaccine to young children. In fact, this “authorization” specifically notes that this is for the 16-and-over age groups. How is mandating a vaccine that didn’t even start getting tested on small children until this past March good policy?

    So, what about this vaccine, that you’ve repeatedly claimed you have, do you find objectionable? Can you make that case honestly without the rhetoric?

    It’s not the vaccine, it’s the hysterical overreaction of you and the rest of the Branch Covidians. nk came right out and said he wishes he could spray my wife and kids with a rat poison. So yeah, even though I’ve had the jab myself, I tend to take that kind of rhetoric rather personally. Someone who clearly wants to do that kind of personal harm to my family because they won’t go along with their dumb little safety cult is not someone to whom I really owe deference.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  126. So it’s nothing specific to the vaccine itself? It’s more that you don’t like the people advocating it?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  127. Wanted to add; because the people advocating it are, in some cases, being obnoxious jerks.

    Also isn’t DDT for insects?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  128. 3. Drug regulators working overtime.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/23/2021 @ 5:45 pm

    9 to 5 instead of 11 to 3.

    Probably mostly pulled off other jobs, with a smidgen of less time wasting and tighter scheduling.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  129. 126-. I said I don’t like the hysterical overreaction. Did I not spell that out clearly enough for you? Or is this a situation like when you claimed I “didn’t want to learn about racism” because you had a narrative you wanted to push?

    127- I’d say wishing that my family get sprayed by poison for not having the jab overrides see vague complaint about “obnoxious jerks.” You clearly are okay with that,but it’s just further evidence that this isn’t about safety.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  130. But there are government mandates on the MMR vaccine. Why aren’t you upset about that as violation of your freedom? Is there something specific about this vaccine that makes it categorically different and therefore a type of tyranny?

    I would suggest that the allowable exemptions are categorically different. I pulled this from the University of California website:

    Request for Medical Exemptions to Vaccination
    The University of California allows for exemptions to immunization requirements based on a medical condition that is a contraindication to vaccination for the following vaccines: MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella), Varicella (chickenpox), Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis) or Meningococcal conjugate (Serogroups A, C, Y, & W-135) for certain groups of students. Requests for exemptions for non-medical reasons will be denied and are not eligible for appeal.
    A list of established medical contraindications to vaccination can be found on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website for Guide to Contraindications at: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac- admin/contraindications-vacc.htm. Contraindications can also be found on the package insert of each vaccine.
    Medical exemption requests must be documented on the Medical Exemption Request Form and submitted by the student to Medical Director of their campus Student Health Services (SHS).
    ALL EXEMPTION REQUESTS MUST INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION:
    1) The specific vaccine(s) for which the exemption is/are requested
    2) A written statement by a licensed, treating medical provider [a physician (MD or DO), nurse practitioner (NP), or physician’s assistant (PA)], including at least one of the following for any vaccine(s) for which an exemption is requested:
    a. The applicable CDC contraindication for the vaccine(s), or
    b. The applicable contraindication found in the manufacturer’s package insert for the vaccine(s), or
    c. A statement that the physical condition of the person or medical circumstances relating to the person are such that immunization is not considered safe, indicating the specific nature and probable duration of the medical condition or circumstances that contraindicate immunization with the vaccine(s)
    3) Whether or not the duration of the exemption is permanent or temporary for any vaccine(s) and, if temporary, the expiration date of the exemption for each vaccine
    4) Alternatively, proof of documentation of positive antibody titers to any of the above vaccinations, at levels which indicate immunity to disease, may be used to satisfy UC immunization requirements or to appeal the immunization requirement for that vaccine.

    https://www.ucop.edu/uc-health/_files/UC%20Immunization%20Exemption%20Policy.pdf

    This is exemption is shared across California’s various school systems and conforms to the latest California law regarding exemptions.

    But the Covid mandate discriminates against the naturally immune. Here is that policy:

    https://returntolearn.ucsd.edu/vaccine-mandate/exceptions-and-deferrals/index.html

    What happened to “science” and its defenders?

    BuDuh (31bb52)

  131. FWO, So it’s not an assault on your freedoms, you just don’t like the policy because you feel it’s an overreaction. That’s understandable.

    I’m pretty sure NK was engaging in hyperbole and doesn’t literally want to spray your family with DDT. But he can clarify if he wants.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  132. BuDuh, It’s still a policy disagreement about how to best mandate the vaccine. You may feel it’s a fatal flaw, but it’s not a statement that vaccine mandates are tyranny.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  133. To be painfully clear FWO, I do not support spraying humans with DDT because they won’t get the Covid vaccine. It’s a mean thing to joke about and vile if serious, which i doubt he was.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  134. BuDuh (31bb52) — 8/24/2021 @ 6:27 am

    But the Covid mandate discriminates against the naturally immune.

    I think it does. Because they want antibodies produced by the vaccine, and not antibodies to other parts of the virus.

    If you read the fine print:

    4) Alternatively, proof of documentation of positive antibody titers to any of the above vaccinations, at levels which indicate immunity to disease, may be used to satisfy UC immunization requirements or to appeal the immunization requirement for that vaccine.

    What they are saying is that if you can;t prove you were vaccinated with a document, you can still prove it with an antibody test.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  135. With most diseases, it would hard to distinguish a positive antibody test stemming from the vaccine and a positive antibody test from the disease but probably not Covid because the Covid vaccines expose the body only to part of the virus.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  136. it’s not a statement that vaccine mandates are tyranny.

    Doesn’t that really depend on the affected group?

    BuDuh (5790a1)

  137. I wouldn’t say “hyperbole” (which is a Greek word, BTW), Time123. I would say a “comparison” (a word of Latin origin) of the unvaccinated to rat fleas which as you know spread the plague in the Middle Ages.

    Which is really the societal interest for having those who can be safely vaccinated to be vaccinated. So they won’t incubate the virus and spread it more.

    nk (1d9030)

  138. @136, I suppose you could make that case. Such as if the mandate only applied to older men or some other class of people. But I don’t see how a disputed position about efficacy makes that case on it’s own that this is tyranny and not objectionable policy. You could also make a case that the law was so badly done that it was tyrannical. But I’m not sure how well the point you raised does that on it’s own. I don’t find it compelling. But the other 150 million voters might feel differently.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  139. Actually, I don’t know if DDT works on rat fleas. I know it works on mosquitos that host and spread malaria. But I had already used mosquitoes for a different metaphor (that’s a Greek word too).

    nk (1d9030)

  140. NK, I think FWO’s point, that comparing his family to vermin is very offensive, is a good one. Since he took your joke literally I think you owe him an apology, for whatever that’s worth.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  141. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:38 am

    You’re misreading my comments just a little. Can you point me to my comment where you think I said I was fine with other vaccine mandates? I’m pretty sure I said they weren’t comparable. There are a lot of ways to avoid the MMR if you want and it covers a more serious illness. No, I wouldn’t mandate the MMR either, especially not a mandate like this covid one is shaping up to be. After making a case for things being a matter of degree in another context you’re choosing not to notice it here?

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:40 am

    Case in point. We can wait KM’s 3 weeks, because we all know how 15 days to slow the spread worked out, and we’ll be talking about how to “encourage” the counties and states that don’t want to mandate it and how to get all of those private schools and homeschoolers in line since they’re nuts anyway.

    You’re notion that this is just like the MMR vaccine is both factually flawed and naive. You’re still dealing with a vaccine that got FDA approval but is still covered by the EUA. If it’s been proven safe why the need for EUA? If you’re so confident in it why can’t people sue when injured by it? It’s a vaccine they we’re being told we might be required to take once or twice a year. The flu is usually pretty deadly. Are we going to start requiring that or people can’t be employed? What about HPV or any number of other vaccines?

    Jim’s comment, I think sums up the issue, people are afraid and they want something to make them feel safe. The vaccine does that but it’s not enough. They can still feel unsafe around other people who “may” not be vaccinated. That doesn’t mean they will catch it from them but better safe than sorry right? So, they’re perfectly happy ignoring everyone else’s rights. Enough people seem to be all in favor of it since the media has done a good job making everyone think something with a >99% survival rate really has >99% chance of killing you and your grandma. The problem is it won’t make them feel safe. There will be another variant and more vaccines and masks and restrictions.

    So you honestly believe that any of this will go away? This is “we’ve got to be vigilant against terrorism” taken up several levels. There will always be a fear of a variant or another virus and there will always be people willing to do whatever to whoever to take just a tiny bit of the fear away and get some semblance of control back.

    frosty (f27e97)

  142. But I did intend to compare the willfully unvaccinated to disease-spreading vermin, Time123, and I did intend to convey that since we cannot exterminate them like plague-carrying fleas or malaria-carrying mosquitoes we should avoid them as much as possible and let the virus they are voluntarily allowing to infect them to deal with them.

    nk (1d9030)

  143. So you’re saying you do oppose vaccine mandates? Because I thought in previous comments you’d said you didn’t, but I could be wrong.

    Or are you saying you oppose this one because you don’t think the vaccine is safe because it’s still under an EUA or some other reason?

    Or are you saying you think this is just bad policy? So bad that you don’t support people exercising their rights of free association in requiring employees to be vaccinated?

    You’ve got a lot of feelings about this but you don’t seem to be able to put them down very clearly.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  144. To put it another way, I have little interest in vaccinating people “for their own good”. To any degree that I care whether they are vaccinate is so that they will not catch, incubate, and spread the virus to others.

    nk (1d9030)

  145. @144, ditto. For instance I think the HPV vaccine is a great idea and I encouraged my daughters to get it. But since it can only be spread through sex it’s a private and not a public health issue. I don’t care that it’s not mandatory. If a woman could get from being sneezed on, and it was spreading like crazy, I might feel differently.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  146. -It’s not ok to wish death on people
    -It’s not ok to take away people’s liberties
    -It’s not ok to withhold healthcare from people bc you dislike their choices
    -It’s not ok to violate someone’s bodily autonomy

    If your politics are making you forget these things, get new ones.

    —- Hannah Cox

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  147. Scratch a lefty, sniff the fascism…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  148. The thing about HPV is that vaccinating people at age 11 or 12 is very close to 100% ahead of sex. But why wait till age 11 or 12? When they started they could say ages 11 to maybe it was 22 years of age were priorities, but why wait till age 11?

    The thing about this, is that this doesn’t eliminate the need to have PAP tests later in life, because the vaccine is only against some versions of the virus. The pharmaceutical company or companies involved are planing to roll out more vaccines later, so as to extend to total life of their patent.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  149. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 7:01 am

    Is there something you would consider too far? If every employer required it for employment, every business refused to transact business with someone without a vax card, and all children had to be vaxed in all cases would that be ok as long as the government only “encouraged” it by making educational funding contingent on it and applied a “tax” on businesses and individuals that weren’t vaxed? If you really want to motivate people maybe you could have the CDC use the power they have to retroactively change rental contracts to add this. You could also have Fannie and Freddie make vaccine status part of the acceptance criteria.

    You won’t be able to get that warm safe feeling everyone needs the compliance you want with just JB on the TV “encouraging” it.

    Also, at some point, you have to wonder if what @142 says out loud isn’t behind a lot of the pro-mandate positions. Have you reached that point yet? What would you find compelling? Maybe when the armbands vax badges show up? Hopefully, we’ll get nice wristbands that we can accessorize. Better yet, Apple can probably integrate that with their watch and phones and we can just scan our vax status at conveniently placed stations in all public places.

    frosty (f27e97)

  150. “You do not shun people, ban them from public spaces, mock them as idiots, deny them gainful employment — and life-saving surgery — out of concern for their well-being.”

    —- Eric Utter

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  151. Also, at some point, you have to wonder if what @142 says out loud isn’t behind a lot of the pro-mandate positions.

    Why would you have a problem with that? That is the most legitimate reason for any law. For the very existence of society itself. The protection of the individual from others. Not from himself.

    nk (1d9030)

  152. The flu is usually pretty deadly.

    Yes, but not close to what we’ve been seeing with covid.

    The 17-18 flu season killed about 60K people in the US and there was a ton of encouragement that year to get vaccinated. it was atypical and we knew it at the time.

    Covid has killed over well 600K people in the US and that was with all the extraordinary measures we took over the last year.

    Covid’s not airborn Ebola, but it’s not the flu either.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  153. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 7:21 am

    So you’re saying you do oppose vaccine mandates? Because I thought in previous comments you’d said you didn’t, but I could be wrong.

    I think I covered that here, you responded here, I responded again here, and then you decided to switch to personal criticism. That is becoming a pattern.

    Or are you saying you oppose this one because you don’t think the vaccine is safe because it’s still under an EUA or some other reason?

    Yes but you seem to be stuck with a very limited set of viewpoints. Based on your comments my “yes” will be misunderstood. I oppose all mandates. It wouldn’t be correct to conclude that I would agree to a mandate for something that was “safe enough”. I think the continuing EUA is evidence that the drug companies themselves don’t think it’s safe enough to expose themselves to any risk. These are separate issues.

    Or are you saying you think this is just bad policy? So bad that you don’t support people exercising their rights of free association in requiring employees to be vaccinated?

    Now you’re mixing up two different things. This is a bad policy. I don’t agree with your definition of “free association” but I haven’t made the argument you’re imagining there.

    You’ve got a lot of feelings about this but you don’t seem to be able to put them down very clearly.

    Nice insult with some gaslighting thrown in. You’re saying I’ve been unclear but I’d say a lot of that is on you. Why are you having trouble with the concept that multiple things could be true at the same time?

    frosty (f27e97)

  154. Frosty, that was colorful, passionate even, but didn’t clarify your position in a useful way. Since you started by telling me I’d misunderstood you I think I should make sure I understand your position before I go further.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  155. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 8:16 am

    Just to be clear, not in favor of mandating the flu vaccine except in years where it meets a deadliness threshold?

    frosty (f27e97)

  156. 153, was a crosspost with 154.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  157. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 8:20 am

    In @154 are you referring to @153?

    I linked you to a clear comment I made and that you saw. Then I repeated, “I oppose all mandates”.

    You asked if I “think this is just bad policy” and I replied “This is a bad policy”

    But you think that didn’t clarify my position in a useful way? If that doesn’t what would?

    frosty (f27e97)

  158. To be clearer in

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 8:20 am

    are you referring to

    frosty (f27e97) — 8/24/2021 @ 8:18 am

    ?

    frosty (f27e97)

  159. Frosty, I thought in a previous comment you’d said you didn’t oppose the MMR vaccine. I assume I was wrong in my recollection. Thank you for making your position clear and you oppose all vaccine mandates.

    We just disagree. I’ll try to articulate my position.

    I think public health concerns justify mandating vaccines in some situations. I think it’s good policy to mandate safe vaccines for highly contagious diseases that have serious health impacts, lethal and otherwise. I think ‘highly’ and ‘serious’ are debatable terms and that elections are how we as a people have to work them out.

    I think freedom of association allows employers to set standards for employees and mandating staff be vaccinated is reasonable. As is not letting sick employees come to work, mandating a dress code or limiting how they express themselves at work.

    To your question on the Flu, I don’t think mandating the flu vaccine would be good public policy.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  160. Frosty,

    I wrote 154 in response to 149 and hadn’t seen 153. I was posting 154 while you posted 153. Your comment at 154 is very clear.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  161. https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Cuomo-commutes-sentence-of-radical-who-took-part-16406824.php

    The left proving once again their love of terrorists when their goal is leftist totalitarianism.

    Another Weather Underground terrorist freed on the way out the door. This is the radical Chelsea Boudin’s dad.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  162. Chesa Boudin

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  163. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 8:33 am

    I thought in a previous comment you’d said you didn’t oppose the MMR vaccine

    I don’t. The evidence indicates that it is safe and effective. I also don’t oppose the COVID vaccine but it doesn’t have the same amount of evidence as MMR. The magic word is mandates.

    I think freedom of association allows employers …

    What happens when not enough of them do?

    I don’t think mandating the flu vaccine would be good public policy.

    Why is it bad policy? Just because 60K < 600K? The infrastructure is already in place. It's considered safe right? It's covered by most insurance, free under a program, or low cost. What is the bad policy there?

    frosty (f27e97)

  164. Chasing credibility: ‘Senator’ Plagiarist to speak to the nation AGAIN this afternoon on Afghan mess.

    Incredible.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  165. Sorry, should have said “ I thought in a previous comment you’d said you didn’t oppose the MMR vaccine mandate

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  166. Either way, my fault for misunderstanding

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  167. @165 – I really need to leave things like that out of my comments. That’s the least interesting thing there and gives you something to comment on while ignoring all of the question marks.

    frosty (f27e97)

  168. The Pfizer vaccine now has a brand name: Comirnaty, and can now legally be promoted and advertised by Pfizer. It is still approved only under emergency authorization for people ages 12 to 15 and not at all approved for children under 12. (New York Daily News editorial)

    So no high school anywhere is goin to mandate that for its students.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  169. i don’t think mandating a flu vaccine would be good policy because i don’t think the reduction in mortality justifies the expenditure of resources. The difference between typical and 60K doesn’t change my feelings but Flu deaths usually range from 20-40K. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  170. Towel-headed, haggling, carpet bazaar bargainers decked out in stolen, brand new U.S. flack jackets, rifles and night vision goggles outwit incredibly dumb-azzed, brain-damaged mick from Scranton, Pennsylvania.. or is it Wilmington this week. Eyeball to eyeball and POTUS blinked.

    He’s a bum. A coward. And a sucker:

    “For friends of Rick’s we have a small discount. Did I say 700 francs? You can have it for 200… For special friends of Rick’s we have a special discount. 100 francs!” – ‘Casablanca’ 1942

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  171. Not so much the resources to administer, more the resources to track it on an annual basis.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  172. 168… Comirnaty

    Sounds like a drunk stumbled in with intentions of naming it after one of the current buzzwords: community

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  173. DCSCA @164.

    Chasing credibility: ‘Senator’ Plagiarist to speak to the nation AGAIN this afternoon on Afghan mess.

    I can’t find out any tentative time, but it does seem to be another appearance, distinct from yesterday’s.

    Biden is expected to announce he will stick with the August 31 deadline, and probably will say he got enough people out. He may use careful wording.

    Some Afghans will be taken to military bases in Virginia, Texas and Wisconsin, and now New Jersey, but these are only vetted Afghans, except they didn’t complete some of the minor paperwork, like a medical examination maybe.

    Meanwhile CIA Director William Burns secretly went to Kabul on Monday to meet with the Taliban’s top political leader, Abdul Ghani Baradar.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  174. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 9:21 am

    You’ve got a cost-benefit curve then? CDC estimates ~50% get the flu vaccine. Forcing everyone to get it might decrease the marginal cost but let’s ignore that. The flu is estimated to cost the economy $90bn. Using rough numbers $90bn/150m is $600/person to get the other 50% vaccinated. I see an estimate for out-of-pocket costs for the flu vaccine at $50. So, $50*150m is $7.5b. Math isn’t my strong area but I think I did that right. It seems like $90bn > $7.5bn.

    Those are just some quick google numbers. Maybe those numbers are totally wrong and it would cost more to vaccinate people than it’s worth. There are a lot of grandmas in the 60k though.

    frosty (f27e97)

  175. sorry

    Using rough numbers $90bn/150m is $600/person to get the other 50% vaccinated.

    let me try again. That isn’t the cost to vaccinate. It’s the cost of not vaccinating.

    maybe this; using rough numbers $90bn/150m gives a budget of $600/person to get the other 50% vaccinated.

    frosty (f27e97)

  176. In World War II, an outbreak of typhus in Naples was checked by requiring everyone in the city to be dusted with DDT.

    Since typhus is carried by lice, and lice often lurk in pubic hairs, that meant that, during the dusting, men were required to open their pants and women lift up their skirts.

    Somewhere around a million people were deloused — whether they wanted to be or not. And the decision save tens of thousands of lives.

    And prevented the disease from being spread to the allied armies.

    (I know of no ill effects from the DDT.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  177. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 9:21 am

    If you’re following the other thread $7.5bn is a bit smaller than what we’re leaving behind in AF.

    frosty (f27e97)

  178. @176, this isn’t a policy I’ve spent a lot of time on. But it sends like even in a bad year we do ok without mandatory vaccination. Whereas with covid we seem to fill up our hospital capacity in outbreak areas. If someone wanted to push the flu vaccine as a policy I’d listen, but would be skeptical that it needed to be a high priority.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  179. “Israel was the international model for vaccinating the population before reopening. But now, more than half of severe Covid19 cases in Israel are among the FullyVaccinated.”

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

    “When are we going to start focusing on treatment? India had much success combating the Delta variant with inexpensive Ivermectin. But that news is being suppressed.”

    India’s Ivermectin Blackout

    https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout/article_e3db8f46-f942-11eb-9eea-77d5e2519364.html

    “Indian health officials recommend Ivermectin & HCQ + Zinc to treat Covid. They even sell ‘Covid kits’ for ≈ A$2.65 containing Ivermectin, Zinc & Doxycycline.”

    Obudman (8a6cde)

  180. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 10:10 am

    Whereas with covid we seem to fill up our hospital capacity in outbreak areas

    Let’s revisit that one again then. What do you think “normal” ICU bed capacity is and how do you think that capacity calculation works?

    Do you think it’s 20% or 30%?

    frosty (f27e97)

  181. Frosty, If you have a point to make feel free to make it plainly.

    My point is that Covid is substantially worse then the flu.

    Here’s stats on the current situation in FL where they’re showing 93%. ICU utilization and 200 deaths per day. I think this data is pretty compelling that Covid is substantially worse then the flue.

    https://covidactnow.org/us/florida-fl/?s=22091135

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  182. R.I.P. Charlie Watts, Stones drummer, 80.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  183. more than half of severe Covid19 cases in Israel are among the FullyVaccinated

    “Lies, damn lies, and statistics”

    If 90% of the population is fully vaccinated, a lot of the infected are going to be such. This also doesn’t control for other possible factors, such as the unvaccinated tending to be much younger and healthier as a rule, or triage nurses favoring the fully vaccinated.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  184. “Indian health officials recommend Ivermectin & HCQ + Zinc to treat Covid. They even sell ‘Covid kits’ for ≈ A$2.65 containing Ivermectin, Zinc & Doxycycline.”

    Them, you trust. Ours, not so much.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  185. R.I.P. American Century, 1941-2001, 60.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  186. @182 – I asked a very simple question about ICU bed capacity. I’m not sure why you’re trying to read into that something about the flu.

    ICU bed capacity isn’t a fixed number. It’s something that generally stays between 80%-90%. No hospital is going to run ICU capacity at 20% for very long. You’re advocating policy decisions based on numbers you don’t understand.

    But since you’re changing the subject.

    For the flu, of course, it’s compelling that COVID is worse than the flu. It’s especially compelling when you look at 2020 flu deaths compared to COVID deaths. That still doesn’t recover the cost-benefit analysis that you think you’re doing.

    frosty (f27e97)

  187. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/24/2021 @ 10:53 am

    Math is a stone-cold b!tch. We already know that the virus can spread among the vaccinated (yes I know the rate is different – not the point) and that the vaccinated can get COVID (yes I know it’s generally less severe – not the point).

    As you say, a lot of the infected are going to be such. Unless we’ve set a target for the acceptable levels of deaths and cases, which we haven’t. We will always be 3-weeks away from the utopia you’re expecting. There will always be a new variant, ICU bed capacity “spiking”, people afraid to go to the barber, tear-jerking stories of people dying, etc.

    frosty (f27e97)

  188. @182 – I asked a very simple question about ICU bed capacity. I’m not sure why you’re trying to read into that something about the flu.

    Because in the comment you replied to I used ICU capacity as an illustration for how Covid was worse then the flu. That was the subject I started with so I wanted to bring it back to that. Not sure how you lost the connection so quickly.

    But you can pick lots of other metrics.

    Excess death is the most compelling to me. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

    Going back too ICU utilization: Based on the data I’ve seen (see the link I provided) FL was running between 70-85% for most of the last year. Texas was a little bit higher and both are now over 90%.

    You’re the one that wanted to talk about mandating a flu vaccine. As I said before, I don’t think it should be a top priority.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  189. Why do you care about the cost/benefits? You’ve already said that you oppose vaccine mandates as a matter of principle up to diseases like mumps, which is for worse then Covid. Since you’re viewing it as an absolute i don’t see how these details matter to you or that your answer would change for something like small pox.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  190. 188, frosty (f27e97) — 8/24/2021 @ 11:07 am

    the vaccinated can get COVID (yes I know it’s generally less severe – not the point).

    Actually I think, that is, or should be, the point – because the people who catch it from them, will also have weaker cases.

    That is why very few people get serious cases pf Covid from children.

    We will always be 3-weeks away from the utopia you’re expecting. There will always be a new variant, ICU bed capacity “spiking”, people afraid to go to the barber, tear-jerking stories of people dying, etc.

    More than 3 weeks, especially if a lot of people are immune.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  191. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 10:32 am

    Frosty, If you have a point to make feel free to make it plainly.

    That’s not an approach that usually works. Especially, with someone like you and me in this situation.

    When someone encounters new information inconsistent with their current beliefs they’ve got several options for dealing with it. They can rationalize it as an exception, ie this new information isn’t actually inconsistent. This has several variants including changing the conflicting information or adding conditions to their prior beliefs that didn’t exist but not actually updating them. They can simply deny the validity of the new information, ie this new information is fake news or a lie. They can process it and incorporate it into their beliefs making any necessary changes. This last one is very rare because it’s very hard.

    The only way I see to have that last one happen is if I simply ask questions and let you process the responses. This is a version of the adage you can’t reason a person out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. I can’t convince you of something. Only you can. In that sense, you should be worried when my comments are clear and make sense to you as you read them.

    frosty (f27e97)

  192. @192, I have liked and respected you for some time. But it seems to me that most of the difficulties we’ve had in the last month + have been from misunderstanding and that being clear and direct would be more effective.

    It’s seemed like you’ve been ‘slippery’ lately where you’ll make a statement that seems to imply something and then be upset when people assume to mean the implication.

    this is a decent example that I think isn’t too emotionally charged. I used a ICU bed capacity as an illustration of the difference between covid and the flu. It’s not the best metric at all, and I picked it in part because I thought it sounded clever and i wanted to be more engaging by referencing the recent news stories about Texas. You focused on that and I assumed (incorrectly) you were arguing against the broader point I was trying to make. We got crosswise yet again.

    I’m not trying to be rude to you or misrepresent your positions. I’m just honestly having a hard time being sure what you’re asserting in a lot of your comments.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  193. Sammy is this fact or theory on your part?

    Actually I think, that is, or should be, the point – because the people who catch it from them, will also have weaker cases.

    That is why very few people get serious cases pf Covid from children.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  194. On COVID, should we follow the example of Norway or India? There may be a few hints in the Economist’s excess deaths estimates:

    Countries in northern Europe have generally experienced much lower mortality rates throughout the pandemic. Some Nordic nations have experienced almost no excess deaths at all. The exception is Sweden, which imposed some of the continent’s least restrictive social-distancing measures during the first wave.
    . . .
    In India, for example, our estimates suggest that perhaps 2.3m people had died from covid-19 by the start of May 2021, compared with about 200,000 official deaths.

    Pragmatic fellow that I am, I think Norway might be a better model of what to do than India.

    (Why does Norway have approximately zero excess deaths, but still have 811 deaths attributed to COVID? Because measures taken to suppress COVID also suppress other respiratory diseases, such as influenza. You can see that in the Norway graph; deaths were actually lower in the winter of 2020/2021, compared to previous years.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  195. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 11:34 am

    Why do you care about the cost/benefits? You’ve already said that you oppose vaccine mandates as a matter of principle up to diseases like mumps, which is for worse then Covid. Since you’re viewing it as an absolute i don’t see how these details matter to you or that your answer would change for something like small pox.

    You gave cost/benefit as your reasoning for COVID. Cost/benefit was also the reason you gave for not mandating it for the flu. You did that after I gave you a cost/benefit that would support the flu. There is an inconsistency there. Maybe you’re trying to deal with that by not making it a priority but that doesn’t resolve the inconsistency. It’s just a different way to say you don’t see the cost/benefit. The benefit of spending $7.5bn to mitigate a cost of $90bn should involve a little more than “I don’t see the need”.

    So, there’s either a cost or a benefit there we aren’t talking about. I’m interested in what that is.

    And before you fall back on ICU bed capacity that doesn’t really change the cost/benefit on flu vs COVID.

    frosty (f27e97)

  196. “Them, you trust. Ours, not so much”

    Tbh – I have no idea who to trust right now.

    But I definitely don’t trust anyone trying to suppress good faith data sharing.

    Obudman (8a6cde)

  197. Not really inconsistent. Just that I haven’t worked out my cost benefit very deeply. Why would I? Lack of a mandatory flu vaccine wasn’t a problem prior.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  198. @195 i think we should follow new zealand’s example, jim

    move our territorial borders to the middle of the ocean and restrict entry

    why don’t we do this?

    poor leadership

    JF (e1156d)

  199. “Move our territorial borders to the middle of the ocean and restrict entry”

    Hawaii and Texas have almost identical infection graphs.

    https://i.postimg.cc/y8QrVzqC/9053-F7-D8-1-DCA-428-E-8823-F0-EA19925598.jpg

    Obudman (8a6cde)

  200. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/24/2021 @ 1:27 pm

    Why would I?

    Intellectual honesty and consistency. It’s an issue of whether you’ve actually thought through your positions or whether you’re just picking justifications based on fear or other emotional responses.

    Said differently, if you’re advocating something based on utilitarianism, ie cost/benefit analysis, are you applying that consistently across issues, or is it just whatever fits the purpose in this instance? If you are taking a utilitarian position are you actually consistent in this instance? If you are using utilitarianism do you understand its fundamental flaws?

    frosty (f27e97)

  201. #200 According to the Worldometers site, Hawaii has had about 40K cases per million; Texas has had about 120K. Hawaii has had 398 deaths per million; Texas has had 1921.

    (Thanks to Delta (presumably), there is a surge currently in Hawaii, and the state is urging tourists to stay home. I assume they are busy restoring some of the restrictions they lifted, unlike Texas.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  202. @200

    it was a joke

    but since you’re taking it seriously, hawaii has never followed new zealand’s example

    not even close

    JF (e1156d)

  203. Hawaii had some of the strictest protocols in the US but OK.

    Obudman (8a6cde)

  204. 142–But I did intend to compare the willfully unvaccinated to disease-spreading vermin, Time123

    Thanks for comparing my 8-year-old, 6-year-old, and 3-year-old daughters–all of whom have their normal vaccine schedules, incidentally–as well as my wife to vermin, and doubling down that the only reason you aren’t killing them yourself (that is what “extermination” means, after all) is because you think there might be consequences to that.

    Funny how it’s okay for certain commenters to wish death on innocent kids and family members of other commenters, as long as they have the correct politics.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  205. (Thanks to Delta (presumably), there is a surge currently in Hawaii,

    Presumably indeed…

    You aren’t legally allowed to know which variant gave you COVID-19 in the US, even if it’s Delta

    •Most people with COVID-19 in the US are legally prevented from knowing which variant infected them.
    •That’s because sequencing tests have to be federally approved for results to be disclosed to doctors or patients, and most are not yet.
    •Lab scientists say the process of validating the tests for approval is too costly and time-consuming.

    Sam Reider, a musician from San Francisco, got a call from the California Department of Public Health in June. Though fully vaccinated, Reider had recently tested positive for COVID-19 after teaching music at a summer camp. The health department asked him to take a second test at a local Kaiser Permanente.

    Reider assumed it was because authorities wanted to find out whether he had a Delta infection. He, too, was curious – but when he got the test results back, he was surprised to learn that doctors couldn’t give him any information about his variant.

    “When I got the follow-up from Kaiser, they said it’s positive, but they didn’t have any of the sequencing information,” Reider told Insider. That “felt odd to me,” he said.

    Several legal barriers prevented Reider and his doctors – as well as nearly all Americans who have tested positive for the coronavirus – from knowing which variant was to blame.

    The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Service (CMS), which oversees the regulatory process for US labs, requires genome-sequencing tests to be federally approved before their results can be disclosed to doctors or patients. These are the tests that pick up on variants, but right now, there’s little incentive for the labs to do the work to validate those tests.

    “I don’t think there’s a lot of motivation, quite honestly, to get that done,” Kelly Wroblewki, director of infectious diseases at the Association of Public Health Laboratories, told Insider.

    Some patients, however, feel they’re being denied access to their own health information.

    In some cases, knowing which variant is involved in an infection could inform how patients do their own contact tracing, since it informs how likely they are to have spread the virus others. (If it’s a Delta infection, for instance, they may want to notify a much wider circle of family and friends.)

    Other patients, like Ryan Forrest, a 30-year-old in Midland Park, New Jersey, are simply curious to figure out how they were infected.

    Forrest tested positive for COVID-19 after attending an indoor wedding in July. He said he didn’t have any personal interactions with the wedding’s “patient zero,” so he’s still wondering how he got sick – especially since he was vaccinated in March. Knowing that the Delta variant infected him could clear up confusion, he said.

    “It would have been nice to know just for curiosity more than anything else,” he said.

    Wroblewki said she “totally understands” that feeling.

    “I would be curious. I think anybody would be curious,” she said. “The important thing to recognize is it’s a liability for laboratories to release the information.”

    Nice data you have there. It be a shame if something happened to it.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  206. You’re entirely welcome, FWO. Please think nothing of it. It was entirely my pleasure.

    To be entirely honest, honestly, I was not even thinking of you at all when I made my initial comment, and I was not even aware that you were married until you brought your wife into the conversation, or that you had children until just now. But, like somebody probably says, just do a random act of kindness, or like whatever, and who knows, somebody you don’t even know might thank you for it.

    nk (1d9030)

  207. Dude, you got a chip on your shoulder and you can just take it back to the cow pasture as far as I’m concerned. You can read whatever you like in my comments but my suggestion and preference is that you do not read them at all. There’s a bot on the sidebar to help you with that.

    nk (1d9030)

  208. 131–Time, since you brought up the issue of the people involved with this, I think it’s fair to address it this way since it’s somewhat related, although not the primary issue:

    To begin with, this is a Big-G government that’s spent the last 25 years building up a data-mining and security infrastructure designed to not just gather information on foreign adversaries, but to spy on American citizens and allies. When asked about it by Congress, the head of one of these organizations straight-up lied to their faces, on the record, that they were doing these things.

    Over the last year, we’ve been told that masks weren’t necessary, and then they were, and then we didn’t need a mask if we got the jab, and now we have to wear them outdoors again even if we’ve gotten the jab. They’re not acknowledging the spike in reporting of adverse effects on these things in VAERS, compared to other vaccines, and the reporting on what’s going on with these in Israel has been covered only in the limpest of terms. And now Biden is “encouraging” employers to mandate an “authorized” vaccine that apparently is weaker against this current version than the other vaccines, and are now saying that 3rd booster shots are going to be needed less than a year after people got them.

    All while this is going on, we’re seeing this administration completely fold in on itself thanks to the situation in Afghanistan. Instead of ANYONE stepping up and being accountable for this, we’ve seen a complete abdication of responsibility. They’ve lied about what they knew, indulged in the typical bureaucratic butt-covering, get stun-locked in press conferences by simple questions, and Congressmen are now admitting that we might not be able to get all of our citizens out of there, meaning we’re basically leaving Americans to die–and all because no one on the ground is just going out and getting them like the British and French have been doing for days.

    Given all this, how can anyone criticize the administration on one hand for fouling one thing up so badly, while placing complete trust in them that they know exactly what they’re doing when it comes to the other, and that everything is on the up and up in the case of the latter? Does it not really occur to anyone here that Biden and his handlers are using these recent COVID measures as a misdirection attempt to try and get the focus off the complete cluster-f**k in Afghanistan that happened under their watch? Does anyone really think the FDA would have signed off on a less effective vaccine against the current dominant strain if it wasn’t a naked attempt by Biden to deflect from the utter disaster that unfolded the last week and a half?

    If this is just sheer incompetence or an inability to adapt to new circumstances, that’s bad enough–all that demonstrates is that the administration isn’t capable of handling situations that aren’t laid out on a silver platter for them by the bureaucracy and their media commissars, or an inability to adjust when they can’t speak their desires into existence.

    What really worries me, however, is that the fumbling around we’re seeing ISN’T just incompetence, and that they know exactly what they’re doing. This is the party of Rahm “You Never Want A Serious Crisis Go To Waste” Emmanuel, after all.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  209. @201, I get that point. But how sharp a pencil do I need? The death totals and hospitalization rates are an order of magnitude different between the flu and covid.

    Time123 (9c9ab7)

  210. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:31 pm

    If you imagined ng’s POV every time you hear someone say they want mandates and “everyone” vaccinated for “everyone’s” “safety” I don’t think you’d be misjudging much.

    frosty (f27e97)

  211. You’re entirely welcome, FWO. Please think nothing of it. It was entirely my pleasure.

    Yes, I’m sure you’re quite pleased at the thought of killing small children.

    To be entirely honest, honestly, I was not even thinking of you at all when I made my initial comment, and I was not even aware that you were married until you brought your wife into the conversation, or that you had children until just now. But, like somebody probably says, just do a random act of kindness, or like whatever, and who knows, somebody you don’t even know might thank you for it.

    There’s your problem right there. You mouth off because you don’t think. The sheer level of solipsism and puerile self-indulgence you put on display would make Narcissus concerned. And I’ve mentioned my wife and kids in these comments before.

    Dude, you got a chip on your shoulder and you can just take it back to the cow pasture as far as I’m concerned.

    Dude, you literally said you wanted to kill people who hadn’t gotten a COVID vaccination, and the only reason you wouldn’t go through with it is because you think there would be consequences to that.

    You can read whatever you like in my comments but my suggestion and preference is that you do not read them at all. There’s a bot on the sidebar to help you with that.

    nk (1d9030) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:54 pm

    Translation: “Being an emotionally stunted waste of carbon molecules, I don’t want to take responsibility for the implications of my eliminationist rhetoric because of the consequences that might entail.”

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  212. If you imagined ng’s POV every time you hear someone say they want mandates and “everyone” vaccinated for “everyone’s” “safety” I don’t think you’d be misjudging much.

    frosty (f27e97) — 8/24/2021 @ 6:04 pm

    At least with some of these people, the mask is fully off now. The pathetic part is that some of them consider themselves to be True and Honest Conservatives while holding those views.

    But I guess it shouldn’t be a surprise. It is the “conservative” Australian government, after all, that is forbidding its citizens from going for a walk outside their house for more than an hour and set up “quarantine camps.” Rhetorically speaking, it’s probably the length of a Patrick Mahomes toss from forcing people to stay locked up in their homes with no person-to-person contact, to putting a bullet in their heads and that of their children for breaking “safety protocols” because they’re a “public health threat.”

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  213. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:58 pm

    Does it not really occur to anyone here that Biden and his handlers are using these recent COVID measures as a misdirection attempt to try and get the focus off the complete cluster-f**k in Afghanistan that happened under their watch?

    It’s misdirection all the way down. We spent $2T for AF over 20 years. Did you notice the $3.5T New New Deal bill is moving forward? Any idea what’s in it? Seen much in the news digging into it?

    frosty (f27e97)

  214. Time123 (9c9ab7) — 8/24/2021 @ 5:59 pm

    You’re stuck focusing on the costs of COVID vs flu in terms of deaths but that’s not what I’m asking you. That’s only an issue if we’re talking about doing one OR the other. There’s no reason you can’t do both if you believe in them.

    I’m asking you about the cost/benefit ratio of mandatory flu vaccines by itself. I gave you the ratio for the flu. I don’t think you know the ratio for COVID but for this discussion it doesn’t matter. If you’re doing cost/benefit for just the flu vaccines it only matters whether the ratio of that is positive. Very positive unless you disagree with the numbers. By your stated logic it’s a no brained to mandate flu vaccines.

    But you don’t want to mandate the flu. Or maybe you do you’re just not convinced it’s important. Or it’s not worth it. But that’s not true if my numbers are right.

    It sounds like you’re just not afraid of the flu. If that’s true then it’s also likely the real reason you’re in favor of mandatory covid vaccines is fear. That would be consistent with what you’ve said and why you focus on the death rates. If that’s true we’re having a ridiculous discussion about your stated rational of cost/benefit and that would explain why you’re confused about why I’m even asking these questions.

    frosty (f27e97)

  215. It’s misdirection all the way down. We spent $2T for AF over 20 years. Did you notice the $3.5T New New Deal bill is moving forward? Any idea what’s in it? Seen much in the news digging into it?

    frosty (f27e97) — 8/24/2021 @ 6:26 pm

    The funniest part of that bill is the breathless articles about how nine “moderate” Democrats are supposedly threatening to kill it.

    Please. The outcome of a Wrestlemania show is less fixed. In fact, it’s a classic pro wrestling angle–one member of a heel faction teases for a few weeks that they’re about to do a babyface turn, even teaming with the babyface at one point against the heels to build audience buzz, only to swerve the audience at the big pay-per-view and hit the face with a chair shot to get massive heat and keep interest in the rivalry going for a bit longer.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  216. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/24/2021 @ 7:02 pm

    Yep. I think a big problem NeverTrump has with DT is he decided to play Lucha libre style. Both in it’s literal meaning and as a wrestling style.

    frosty (f27e97)

  217. Frosty, I’m youngish, healthy, and good at statistics. I don’t think I’m going to get covid and if I do I’ll probably just get sick for a week. So I’m not particularly frightened of it.

    As I said before. I don’t see much reason why we need to mandate the flu vaccine. The impact of a typical (or even a bad) flu season doesn’t seem large enough to justify it IMO. You’re free to disagree and state your case on why you think it’s needed if you like.

    Covid killed over 600,000 people so far and that’s with a lot of effort to stop the spread. I think that provides plenty of justification for an employer to mandate it if they’re so inclined and plenty of reason to encourage it as a public health policy.

    Time123 (9c9ab7)

  218. Also, I think basing decisions on loss of life, or injury, is valid even when cost isn’t a limiting factor. I disagree with you that both decisions need to be made on an NPV standpoint.

    Time123 (9c9ab7)

  219. FWO, I saw your comment and don’t have time to respond, though it’s worth it. Also, I think NK is being a complete @ss to you. I would be incandescent with anger if I were in your shoes. A couple a-hole commenters were far less rude about a member of my family and it pissed me off.

    Dana or JVW is NK’s comment in line with the rules? I think after FWO made it clear the Comment applied to his kids it crossed the line.

    Time123 (9c9ab7)

  220. @218, I think it was the endless lying, the corruption, the incompetence, and attacking the foundation of our democracy based on a lie.

    Time123 (9c9ab7)

  221. FWO applied my comments to his wife and kids (if he actually has any, which I question), not I. From start to finish, he manufactured the fakey offense and faux outrage. This is he, completely he, below:

    Thanks for comparing my 8-year-old, 6-year-old, and 3-year-old daughters–all of whom have their normal vaccine schedules, incidentally–as well as my wife to vermin, and doubling down that the only reason you aren’t killing them yourself (that is what “extermination” means, after all) is because you think there might be consequences to that.

    That’s his dishonesty in full view, right on top! Is anybody looking to mandate for kids under 15 to be vaccinated?

    And you, Time123, should switch from incandescent to LED. It saves money, and it saves the planet.

    nk (1d9030)

  222. Just to be clearer. You will not find any mention by me of WFO’s alleged wife and kids except to tell him that I did not know he had any. In my Comment 208, my next to last to him.

    nk (1d9030)

  223. Time123 (9c9ab7) — 8/24/2021 @ 7:44 pm

    You aren’t disagreeing with me. I’m just trying to work with your logic on COVID and apply it to the flu. If you’re disagreeing with anyone it’s yourself. Isn’t this COVID mandates are good policy vs flu mandates are bad policy based on your view of the cost and benefits? You’re the one that said 600k was a big deal but 60k wasn’t a big concern right? I’m not saying they need to be based on NPV. You’ve said your views on both were based on NPV.

    @220 seems a bit confusing. I think you mean when cost is a limiting factor. If cost isn’t a limiting factor and it’s all upside benefit there’s no reason not to do a thing. That works against your saying the flu isn’t large enough to justify the cost. If life and injury means cost isn’t an issue then it’s not an issue.

    The weird thing is that given what you’ve said is the reasoning behind your support of covid mandates the flu mandates should be an easy yes. But it’s not and that’s why I keep poking at this.

    Is there some logic here? What’s your thought process? I get that 600k is a big deal so something must be done. Why doesn’t the same logic apply to 60k and billons of dollars? It’s only a matter of scale and nothing stopping you from advocating for both.

    You don’t have to answer and I’ll drop this one. I suspect you’re all over the place on this because you think I’m trying to trick you. But you owe it to yourself to do a little reflection on why you aren’t as willing to push a flu mandate as you are a COVID mandate.

    frosty (f27e97)

  224. FWO applied my comments to his wife and kids (if he actually has any, which I question),

    I’m more than happy for you to come out to my house and meet them in person (if you’re actually adult enough to do so, which I question).

    From start to finish, he manufactured the fakey offense and faux outrage

    Again, you literally compared unvaccinated people to vermin, and then proudly doubled down on it when called out. You’re just trying to backtrack now because the implications are starting to seep in.

    That’s his dishonesty in full view, right on top! Is anybody looking to mandate for kids under 15 to be vaccinated?

    Uh, if people over 15 and over who aren’t vaccinated are vermin, in your eyes, what makes them different from people under 15 who aren’t vaccinated?

    Face it, you opened your fat mouth, shoved your foot in and swallowed your leg up to the knee, and now all of a sudden it’s, “Hey, I didn’t do anything!” Sort of like what bullies do when they realize they might suffer some actual consequences for their actions.

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  225. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/24/2021 @ 8:33 pm

    I’m more than happy for you to come out to my house and meet them in person

    I’d recommend against that. The mess wouldn’t be worth it. I know we learned some interesting uses for DDT recently but turns out you can’t buy that anymore.

    frosty (f27e97)

  226. Again, you literally compared unvaccinated people to vermin, and then proudly doubled down on it when called out. You’re just trying to backtrack now because the implications are starting to seep in.

    I am backtracking nothing. I am calling you a liar, a phony, and a faux outrage troll. And, pray tell, just exactly what “implications are starting to seep in”. The only ones I see are the ones you’ve made up. Do you have any others in mind?

    I think you also mentioned “consequences” above. (You’re not worth my time to go back and read it again.) If you did, same question: What consequences do you have in mind?

    nk (1d9030)

  227. I’m more than happy for you to come out to my house and meet them in person

    I’d recommend against that. The mess wouldn’t be worth it. I know we learned some interesting uses for DDT recently but turns out you can’t buy that anymore.

    I know I risk being accused that I am accusing people’s spouses of zoophilia, but it’s a common adage that “On the internet nobody knows you’re a dog”.

    nk (1d9030)

  228. nk (1d9030) — 8/24/2021 @ 9:04 pm

    So, you’re saying you’re a dog and people’s spouses are sleeping with you? Are you trolling for something like congrats you lucky dog?

    frosty (f27e97)

  229. You got it, frosty!

    nk (1d9030)

  230. fifi (1d9030) — 8/24/2021 @ 9:37 pm

    You should own it. What do the kids say? Live your truth? You can change your handle to something like lady, daisy, or fifi.

    frosty (f27e97)

  231. I’d like to tell you what you should do, frosty, but I’ve wasted enough of Patterico’s pixels on puerile trolls today.

    nk (1d9030)

  232. daisy (1d9030) — 8/24/2021 @ 10:22 pm

    I’m pretty sure the pixels on my phone belong to me. It’s his bandwidth you’ve been wasting. And probably some storage and compute.

    That aside; Ruff

    frosty (f27e97)

  233. i don’t think mandating a flu vaccine would be good policy because i don’t think the reduction in mortality justifies the expenditure of resources

    I see where I was confusing. When I said resources I intended financial, increase of government, people’s time, people’s willingness to follow a rule and put up with bureaucracy etc.

    Maybe justify the ‘hassle’ or ‘intrusion’ would have been better.

    Does that clear it up?

    Time123 (9c9ab7)

  234. Flip-Flopping Fascist Fear Fuhrer Fauci should be on trial.

    mg (8cbc69)

  235. I’d recommend against that. The mess wouldn’t be worth it.

    What mess do you think would ensue by looking my wife and kids in the face and telling them they’re vermin that should be exterminated?

    I am backtracking nothing. I am calling you a liar, a phony, and a faux outrage troll.

    ::says people who don’t have the jab should be exterminated::
    ::calls others liars, phonies, and faux outrage trolls::

    And, pray tell, just exactly what “implications are starting to seep in”. The only ones I see are the ones you’ve made up…
    What consequences do you have in mind?

    Same question–what do you think the consequences of indulging in eliminationist rhetoric like yours are?

    Factory Working Orphan (2775f0)

  236. Time123 (9c9ab7) — 8/25/2021 @ 2:45 am

    It does but maybe not how you’d think. Most of those are elements in a cost/benefit analysis. People’s willingness to follow a rule is more a feasibility question.

    But the others are all part of a C/B. So, it sounds like “I’m not doing a thing” and then describing the thing you are doing. At best what you are saying is you don’t think I’ve tracked all of the costs.

    So, yes, it clears up my confusion about the logic you’re using.

    frosty (f27e97)

  237. Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 8/25/2021 @ 4:31 am

    What mess do you think would ensue

    Originally, I was thinking of something else but considering the recent revelations of certain canine fetishes/proclivities, you never know what gifts would be left in your yard.

    frosty (f27e97)

  238. @238 – sorry

    and then describing the thing you say you are not doing

    frosty (f27e97)

  239. 241. I wasn;t hoping for too much more.

    But that’s the bottom line.

    They couldn’t say it came from a lab (and actually I think it escaped two or more times from a lab, and the virus was not identical) unless they can say, or propose, who, what, where, why, when and, of most interest, how.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  240. Might be a dead thread but Delta is increasing health care costs for ppl that forgo the covid vaccine.

    https://twitter.com/airlineflyer/status/1430533179098734592?s=21

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  241. Poll:

    Have you had someone you know die or be permanently impaired, due to Covid? (Yes/No)

    Do you think it is important for people to get vaccinated? (Yes/No)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  242. For me, Yes and Yes

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  243. @244 yes and yes

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  244. 244… yes and yes, as age appropriate.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  245. Poll:

    Do you think we should have more virtue signaling, emotion, and less critical thinking? (answer as you choose)

    Do you think we should have less privacy, agency, and personal responsibility? (answer as you choose)

    frosty (3ee3f8)

  246. Lack of personal responsibility for a deadly and highly contagious disease is a public health issue.

    Which is why the covid vaccine is very different from the HPV vaccine.

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  247. Time123 (edb5fd) — 8/25/2021 @ 10:47 am

    It’s a good thing we’ve got people willing to make decisions for other people then. Everyone is so lucky. Anything else you think everyone should be doing?

    frosty (3ee3f8)

  248. New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio wants Biden to push through politically interfere and push through FDA approval of a vaccine for 5-11 year olds.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  249. It would be *awesome* if you could wash your hands after you wipe your butt. I think maybe requiring it would be appropriate for food service workers.

    Also, I know you own the land your house is on, but we have to insist you not dump heavy metals in the river out back.

    While we’re on that, I might need to give you some rules about burning yard waste, or even make you ask permission before you do it.

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  250. Oh, if there’s reasons to suspect you have Ebola we might mandate a very strict quarantine until we’re sure you don’t.

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  251. @249 You can fall back on 600k but would you say the same at 500k? 100k? You say you won’t do it for 60k but you don’t really have a reason for why that’s too low. Where is the line where you decided it was worth it?

    frosty (3ee3f8)

  252. How do you feel about what we did to eradicate small pox?

    Fantastic human accomplishment or vile violation of human rights?

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  253. @254, that’s a good question. In a previous comment I think I said that the specifics of what counts as “highly” contagious and “deadly” would be debatable. I think the political process is probably be the best (least bad) way to resolve that debate.

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  254. Time123 (edb5fd) — 8/25/2021 @ 11:10 am

    You’re thinking we eradicated smallpox with a worldwide mandatory vaccination? Or are you referring to something like Jacobson v. Massachusetts? You want to debate Jacobson?

    @256 fair enough

    frosty (f27e97)

  255. @257, I’m not qualified to argue that. But if you want to type why it’s wrong I’d be willing to read, and probably make Uninformed comments. 😀

    Time123 (edb5fd)

  256. Some measures taken to slow the spread of Covid may be useless and even counterproductive. Those are the barriers. Except when someone coughs, they only postpone the arrival of virus particles by about five minutes, and they may reduce air exchange in the room, or in some cases redirect it so that a place that previously accumulated virus particles maybe no longer does but now another place does.

    One worker maybe is better off and others could be worse off.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/19/well/live/coronavirus-restaurants-classrooms-salons.html

    Intuition tells us a plastic shield would be protective against germs. But scientists who study aerosols, air flow and ventilation say that much of the time, the barriers don’t help and probably give people a false sense of security. And sometimes the barriers can make things worse.

    Research suggests that in some instances, a barrier protecting a clerk behind a checkout counter may redirect the germs to another worker or customer.

    And a whole row of them ” can also impede normal air flow and ventilation.”

    Under normal conditions in stores, classrooms and offices, exhaled breath particles disperse, carried by air currents and, depending on the ventilation system, are replaced by fresh air roughly every 15 to 30 minutes. But erecting plastic barriers can change air flow in a room, disrupt normal ventilation and create “dead zones,” where viral aerosol particles can build up and become highly concentrated.

    “If you have a forest of barriers in a classroom, it’s going to interfere with proper ventilation of that room,” said Linsey Marr, professor of civil and environmental engineering at Virginia Tech and one of the world’s leading experts on viral transmission. “Everybody’s aerosols are going to be trapped and stuck there and building up, and they will end up spreading beyond your own desk.”

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  257. Time123 (edb5fd) — 8/25/2021 @ 11:14 am

    I think the political process is probably be the best (least bad) way to resolve that debate.

    Quick clarification; by political process do you mean voting and a majority rules type situation?

    frosty (f27e97)


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