Patterico's Pontifications

8/17/2021

Fully Vaccinated Governor of Texas Tests Positive For Covid-19

Filed under: General — Dana @ 4:03 pm



[guest post by Dana]

Texas Gov. Abbott tests positive for Covid-19:

Abbott, who is fully vaccinated, is not experiencing any symptoms and is isolating at the Governor’s Mansion, spokesperson Mark Miner said in a statement. He is getting Regeneron’s monoclonal antibody treatment. Public health officials have noted that while breakthrough cases like Abbott’s are occurring, vaccines are still proven to be effective at reducing the severity of the virus.

“The Governor has been testing daily, and today was the first positive test result,” Miner said. “Governor Abbott is in constant communication with his staff, agency heads, and government officials to ensure that state government continues to operate smoothly and efficiently.”

Miner added that “everyone that the Governor has been in close contact with today” has been informed of his positive test. The first lady, Cecilia Abbott, tested negative.

As a reminder:

Abbott’s positive test comes as the coronavirus pandemic is ripping through Texas again, with daily new cases and hospitalizations reaching levels not seen since the last wave in the winter. The governor has received national attention for his refusal to allow local governments and school districts to mandate masks or vaccines.

Unfortunately, the governor had been in contact with other unmasked Texans days before his test results came in:

Abbott has kept up public appearances in recent days. He spoke Monday night at what he called a “standing room only event” in Collin County, later tweeting photos of him addressing a maskless crowd. His campaign tweeted video of him mingling with the crowd, taking photos…

Less than three hours before his diagnosis was announced Tuesday afternoon, he tweeted pictures of a meeting with guitarist Jimmie Vaughan. The musician’s team said in a statement Tuesday evening that “Jimmie and family have tested negative and are doing fine.”

And here he is at last night’s event where everyone appears to be crowded indoors, and from what I can see, they aren’t wearing masks:

While 45% of Texas is fully vaccinated, the positivity rate continues to remain high:

The state reported 5,343 new cases Monday and 11,791 hospitalizations Sunday. The seven-day average of the positivity rate — the ratio of cases to tests — was 17.8% on Sunday. That was a slight dip but still well above the 10% threshold that Abbott has identified as dangerous.

The governor is receiving a cocktail antibody treatment made by Regeneron Pharmaceuticals. Apparently, Abbott has promoted the treatment in the past, and there is this: “Texas recently opened nine antibody infusion centers throughout the state that use the Regeneron antibodies.

Note: According to NBC News, Abbott told people that he had received a third booster shot of the vaccine. Unless one has a compromised immune system, booster shots have not yet been authorized by the FDA.

–Dana

105 Responses to “Fully Vaccinated Governor of Texas Tests Positive For Covid-19”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (174549)

  2. I’m not surprised at all by this. The coronavirus is here to stay. We must learn to live with it.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/how-we-live-coronavirus-forever/619783/

    norcal (a6130b)

  3. The OCR test is too sensitive. A vaccine does not prevent infection. It just results in a quick defeat.

    Now results from Israel show that those vaccinated longest ago have a higher chance of testing positive. And of course the 3 or 4 week gap between shots is too short but Pfizer and Moderna were shooting for quick approval and they didn’t know how effective one jab wold be.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  4. * PCR test.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  5. Again, stop making masks a talisman that effectively wards the virus.

    It doesn’t. It’s security theater akin to the TSA checkpoint at the airport.

    The proper response to Abbott’s positive test, is that vaccine works, as he’s showing zero symptoms.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  6. As I said earlier:

    People who are around a lot of people a lot of the time will tend to get exposed. Especially if the people they are around are anti-vaxx idiots. Vaccines are not perfect. He is asymptomatic, which is a benefit of being vaccinated. I suspect that he gets tested fairly frequently, as per policy in his office.

    I imagine that, being asymptomatic, he was unlikely to spread the disease (e.g. no coughing and sneezing) and that only frequent testing would even catch the short time the virus was active in his system.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. The people on respirators are mostly not the vaccinated.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. Statewide indoor mask mandate starts this weekend in NM — even though the state is 65+% fully vaccinated (and 75% partially), there are enough boobs who are neither vaccinated nor taking precautions that everyone has to suffer.

    Again, if ICU beds are filling, why waste one on an unvaccinated person who won’t take care of themselves even if it’s free? They don’t prioritize drunks for liver transplants.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. The coronavirus is here to stay. We must learn to live with it.

    I will not buy a Chinese product until it’s gone.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. The proper response to Abbott’s positive test, is that vaccine works, as he’s showing zero symptoms.

    I don’t think there is a proper or improper response to this news. But I do agree that this again shows that the vaccine works in helping to minimize symptoms.

    Dana (174549)

  11. BTW, careful about vaccine statistics in the SW and prairie states. Often sources just cite the state figures, but some of these states have substantial Native American reservation populations, and the state figures don’t include those since the federal government operates there.

    See here for an example: https://cvvaccine.nmhealth.org/public-dashboard.html

    In New Mexico, 9% of the state population was treated by the feds, so the state total of 56% isn’t accurate; the proper number is 65%.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. ICU beds in Texas are filled with Biden’s illegal alien invasion.

    NJRob (93339c)

  13. Texas lists its fully vaccinated 12+ population at 55%, with 85% of the 65+ population with at least one dose. There are 135K Native Americans in TX.

    https://tabexternal.dshs.texas.gov/t/THD/views/COVID-19VaccineinTexasDashboard

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  14. ICU beds in Texas are filled with Biden’s illegal alien invasion.

    You get this information from where?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  15. The vaccines works–he gets the bug anyway. Now boosters to come.

    $$$$$ ‘Pig’ Pharma $$$$$ on the march! These guy$ are ma$ter marketer$.

    Wait for the paperback; wait for the pill.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  16. those euphoric houston chronicle tweets are all you need to know about that democrat mouthpiece

    JF (e1156d)

  17. It is really too bad that the nanny filter doesn’t operate commenter by commenter.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. 9… Sinophobia!!!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  19. Is it ethical to fill up ICU beds with people suffering from a disease they refused to prevent, with a free and ubitquitous vaccine, to the point that the statistically expected cardiac and trauma patients cannot be accommodated and must be left to die?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. More troops vs., booster shots; if Milley and Fauci switched jobs we’d get the same results…

    Bureaucrats.

    Can’t live with ’em; can’t live without ’em.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  21. I don’t think there is a proper or improper response to this news. But I do agree that this again shows that the vaccine works in helping to minimize symptoms.

    What symptoms does the governor have?

    It would be interesting to know the vaccine status of the people he encountered prior to Covid being picked up on a test of the asymptomatic Governor. I am assuming that these people had zero to very minimal symptoms.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  22. Yesterday’s heroes now driving drunk:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=e_lzO0246OU&fbclid=IwAR1M33Os7fDhuct6vrIeRf9R6rqwIwJeaWISEHsadHIzfc8M06PtiiXXj3Y

    Thank God for the Canadians taking their places.

    BuDuh (fdd65e)

  23. Ask not for whom the Covid tolls … because nobody the f*** knows. I don’t consider this some kind of embarrassment, or failing, or “karma” on Abbott’s part, because I am confident that he knows just as much about Covid as anybody in the federal health alphabet soup. And maybe more. They’ve always been mopes to me, anyway.

    nk (1d9030)

  24. What symptoms does the governor have?

    He is reportedly asymptomatic. For him the tests are a routine precaution.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  25. It would be interesting to know the vaccine status of the people he encountered prior to Covid being picked up on a test of the asymptomatic Governor. I am assuming that these people had zero to very minimal symptoms.

    He meets with hundreds, if not thousands, of people a day. In office, in crowds, etc. He’s a politician. Unlike Trump or Biden, they don’t do a deep dive into everyone he comes near.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  26. It seems more and more like we will have to wait until all the unvaccinated people get sick and hopefully recover before we can have nice things again. When they shut things down again, I will know whom to blame.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  27. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/17/2021 @ 8:07 pm

    It seems more and more like we will have to wait until all the unvaccinated people get sick

    Most people (defined as over 50%) who are infected don’t even get sick.

    Almost all people who get the vaccine get mildly sick for a day or two, unless they’ve been previously infected.

    I think it’s fair to say that.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  28. Cant wait for the afghani entourage to bring in more of the china flu, along with no border with mexico, mg says stay off my fricking property.

    mg (8cbc69)

  29. You pretend that the only possible source of Covid from outside the United States of foreogn citizens who want to move to the United States permanently – and nobody else crosses the border.

    When Ted Crus went to Mexco, he was not tested for Covid because Mexico tests nobody for Covid. And when Ted Cruz came back from Cancun he wasn’t tested either.

    And that;s just one thing.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  30. The afghanis are bringing terrorism and the china flu. joe cellar at his traitorous best.

    mg (8cbc69)

  31. There is a lot of reporting on the rising infection rates, but what are the hospitalization and death rates, especially for those that are vaccinated?

    I’ve heard reporting on rising ICU rates. Haven’t heard a lot about death rates. I would assume this means the death rate now is way down.

    Hoi Polloi (998b37)

  32. @31, Your assumption isn’t correct. FL daily deaths are at about 170 a day, which is about as high as they’ve ever been. Texas is a little lower.

    Reasonably good dashboard. Pretty easy to navigate.
    https://covidactnow.org/us/florida-fl/?s=21821108

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  33. Indiana is tracking vaccinated vs. unvaccinated

    TL:DR Get the shot. Encourage others to get the shot. Push back against grifters who are discouraging the shot.

    https://www.kpcnews.com/covid-19/article_f0e9bff4-a968-56b3-928d-734094459955.html

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  34. vaccines are still proven to be effective at reducing the severity of the virus

    Is this the new definition of effective for the COVID vaccine? Wasn’t this considered an anti-vax position two weeks ago?

    frosty (f27e97)

  35. Reasonably good dashboard. Pretty easy to navigate.
    https://covidactnow.org/us/florida-fl/?s=21821108

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/18/2021 @ 4:59 am

    Florida looks bad, but death rates in other states seem way down than in early 2021, when things were really bad.

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  36. They may be routinely using the Regemeron monoclonal antibodies in Texas – they probably are but they got started ratcheting that up later than in Florida.

    Here’s something that may explain a mystery or unclarity;

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-herd-provincetown-mayo-delta-mask-mandate-vaccine-passport-cdc-mucosal-immunity-11629128219

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s latest Covid guidelines have many Americans confused. Vaccinated people are supposed to resume wearing masks, lest they contract and spread the virus. Yet unvaccinated people are still strongly urged to get the shots, which are said to be highly effective. How can both these claims be true?

    The answer is that there’s more than one kind of immunity. Internal immunity protects the inside of the body, including the lungs. This occurs by release of antibodies of the Immunoglobulin G type, or IgG, into the blood and production of T-cells. Vaccines injected into our muscles are highly effective at stimulating internal immunity. This largely protects vaccinated people from being overwhelmed by the coronavirus, unless they have an immunodeficiency or are exposed to an unusually large amount of the virus. Vaccination will dramatically reduce your likelihood of serious illness or death if you’re exposed to SARS-CoV-2.

    In contrast, mucosal immunity provides the first line of defense by protecting the nose and mouth, and by doing so also reduces spread to others. The mucous membranes secrete a particular form of antibodies of the Immunoglobulin A type, or IgA. But vaccines injected into our muscles—including all the approved inoculations against Covid—are largely ineffective at stimulating the secretion of IgA into our noses that occurs after actual infection with a virus. As a result, vaccinated people can contract a Covid-19 infection confined to the mucous membranes. They may get the sniffles but can spread the virus to others even if they are asymptomatic. That’s why it makes sense for them to wear a mask under some circumstances.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  37. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/17/2021 @ 8:07 pm

    It seems more and more like we will have to wait until all the unvaccinated people get sick and hopefully recover before we can have nice things again.

    At this point, you’re still thinking the unvaccinated are the only ones transmitting the virus. It’s clear from the data we’ve got that this isn’t the case. The vaccinated can still spread the virus and it’s a roll of the dice for each new variant.

    When they shut things down again, I will know whom to blame.

    Yes, you’ve made it clear this is important to you. Do you have your “I’m vaccinated” arm-band wrist-band that lets everyone know you’re a responsible member of the party society?

    frosty (f27e97)

  38. this is the tennessee vaccine karen who wanted minors vaccinated without their parent’s consent

    and when parents pushed back, they were smeared as ignorant anti-vaxxers by other vaccine karens

    https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/16/muzzle-sent-former-tn-vaccine-head-paid-her-credit-card/8155357002/

    Tennessee’s former top vaccination official, who was fired in July, may have sent herself a dog muzzle, and there’s no evidence it was intended to threaten her, a new state investigation found.

    lol

    JF (e1156d)

  39. This is whee \i found the claim that immunity gets better by itself – which makes no sense, unless people get re-infected:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccine-mandate-natural-immunity-lawsuit-covid-19-coronavirus-11628281507

    And whereas the vaccine’s protection may wane faster than expected, the latest estimates on the durability of natural immunity stretch to at least 11 months, the duration of most follow-up studies. Some 16 months after contracting Covid I am still testing positive for antibodies. In fact, researchers have discovered that the antibodies produced by natural infection continue to evolve to generate “increasingly broad and potent antibodies that are resistant to mutations” compared with the more static “antibodies elicited by vaccination.”

    This is the link:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454333v1.full

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454333v1

    Between prime and boost, memory B cells produce antibodies that evolve increased neutralizing activity, but there is no further increase in potency or breadth thereafter. Instead, memory B cells that emerge 5 months after vaccination of naïve individuals express antibodies that are equivalent to those that dominate the initial response. We conclude that memory antibodies selected over time by natural infection have greater potency and breadth than antibodies elicited by vaccination. These results suggest that boosting vaccinated individuals with currently available mRNA vaccines would produce a quantitative increase in plasma neutralizing activity but not the qualitative advantage against variants obtained by vaccinating convalescent individuals.

    Vaccination can add to the variety of antibodies increasing (and getting more potent) after natural infection but vaccination after a previous vaccination does not do so as much.

    . However, memory B cell evolution differs in important ways between infection and mRNA vaccination. Both natural infection and mRNA vaccination produce memory antibodies that evolve increased affinity, but the increase in affinity is more modest after vaccination. This difference is consistent with the observation that vaccine-elicited memory antibodies fail to show the increased neutralizing breadth that developed after natural infection1, 7.

    There are innumerable differences between natural infection and mRNA vaccination that could account for the differences in antibody evolution over time. These include but are not limited to: 1. Route of antigen delivery, respiratory tract vs. intra-muscular injection41, 42; 2. The physical nature of the antigen, intact virus vs. S protein43; 3. Antigen persistence, weeks in the case of natural infection7 vs. hours to days for mRNA44. Each of these could impact on B cell evolution and selection directly, and indirectly through differential T cell recruitment.

    I question whether it should occur at all without a person getting re0exposed.

    Sammy Finkelman (b434ee)

  40. @34

    vaccines are still proven to be effective at reducing the severity of the virus

    Is this the new definition of effective for the COVID vaccine? Wasn’t this considered an anti-vax position two weeks ago?

    frosty (f27e97) — 8/18/2021 @ 6:24 am

    No. This was always been the argument. It’s literally how most vaccines work. (vary rare a vaccine incurs total immunity).

    It’s just that the CDC done a poor job in conveying that.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  41. HP, I’ll be interested in seeing how this develops and if the northern states will see spikes in the fall.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  42. JF, just get the vaccine already. I know it’s scary but the needle doesn’t hurt that much.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  43. It varies from state to state. nationwide, having fallen to a low of 224/day 39 days ago, we’re back up to 735/day, about where we were in the lull between last year’s summer surge and last year’s winter surge.

    In terms of absolute numbers, the worst place in the country right now is Florida, which is hitting 153/day, a rate comparable only to the summer and winter surges. No other state comes even remotely close. Texas is second with 92, which is roughly equivalent to the best point of the lull between the summer and winter surges there. (both are up dramatically; Texas’ early summer low point was 21/day, while Florida’s was 24/day).

    If you go by the more useful per capita rate, Louisiana is the worst with 1.08/100,000 per day, which ties the summer 2020 surge but is slightly lower than the winter surge and the spring 2020 surge. Mississipi is second worst with .936/100,000 per day, which is comparable to the summer 2020 surge. Arkansas is third with .914/100,000 per day, which corresponds to the early days of the winter surge. Florida is fourth.

    All of this information is easily obtainable at 91-divoc.com, which aggregates data from state health departments.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  44. @42 of course you’re assuming i haven’t already

    typical, and in the spirit of the tenn karen

    likely i got shot well before you

    JF (e1156d)

  45. Fully Vaccinated Governor of Texas Tests Positive

    This only gives anti-vaxxers more ammunition the vaccines aren’t effective.

    BillPasadena (5b0401)

  46. whembly (ae0eb5) — 8/18/2021 @ 6:47 am

    Sorry, whembly, this was not the argument until very recently. You are making an argument that has frequently been painted anti-vax.

    The public was told that if you got the vaccine you wouldn’t get COVID (it would reduce the severity, as you say, of the symptoms), you wouldn’t transmit the virus, and everything could go back to normal. That some people knew that was BS doesn’t change the fact that people were labeled anti-vax for saying anything not 100% pro-vaccine.

    Yes, if you actually read what the CDC said you’d get your version of the argument. But that wasn’t the argument made in comments here or with the public at large.

    Only now, that it’s become obvious that the vaccine doesn’t prevent the spread, have some people fallen back to the more supportable position that it manages the symptoms. Some people are still clinging to the idea it stops the spread.

    Much like the lab leak, some people will acknowledge “new data” for about 5 minutes and then go back to the original claims.

    There are people who won’t read the CDC statements for what they are but are willing to mandate vaccines, support employment restrictions, or other punitive actions. Some of that is justified by misinformation about the COVID vaccines. It’s worth pointing out that those people are carrying the goalposts wherever they go.

    frosty (f27e97)

  47. #31 Hoi Polloi – For the United States, the death rates peaked about the middle of January, two or three weeks after the holiday season, at more than 3,000 deaths per day. They declined steadily from there until about the middle of July, when they were averaging about 300 per day. They have been rising since then and will soon be close to 1,000 per day again, judging by the surge in cases.

    But in Florida, the number of cases is higher than it has ever been.

    And, as always, I should mention that epidemiologists mostly agree that the official counts almost always underestimate the number of deaths from COVID. If you are interested in that subject, just search on “excess deaths + COVID” for some sources.

    (In my semi-informed opinion, some of the differences between the states can be explained simply by when people are indoors, in the winter in northern states, and in the summer in southern states.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  48. BillPasadena (5b0401) — 8/18/2021 @ 7:21 am

    This only gives anti-vaxxers more ammunition the vaccines aren’t effective.

    It’s a shame it can’t be censored right? Maybe YouTwitFace is looking out for the common good.

    frosty (f27e97)

  49. I should add that the Worldometers site has been way wrong on Florida COVID deaths for some days now, why I don’t know, since they seem to be roughly right on Florida cases.

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  50. @46, did you check out the data from Indiana on the vaccinated / unvaccinated hospitalizations and deaths? Link is above.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  51. vaccines are still proven to be effective at reducing the severity of the virus

    Is this the new definition of effective for the COVID vaccine? Wasn’t this considered an anti-vax position two weeks ago?
    frosty (f27e97) — 8/18/2021 @ 6:24 am

    Is the anti-vax position now “There’s no good reason to get vaccinated because it’s better to get a severe case and possibly die then to get a mild case or be asymptomatic”?

    Radegunda (33a224)

  52. Also, data seems to support that the vaccine *slows* the spread. Substantially slows except for the delta variant. Had everyone that could gotten vaccinated this most recent spike would look very very different. The grifters that have been pushing back on this have done terrible damage to the country.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  53. * than to get a mild case …

    Radegunda (33a224)

  54. @51, I think it’s still “people we don’t like are telling us to do something so we chose to believe stupid conspiracy theories’

    Also, we should talk about tactical things that will help get the hesitant/lazy across the finish line.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  55. @50 was this for me? If so I’m not sure I understand your point. Do you imagine that I’ve ever said the vaccine wasn’t effective or ever actually been anti-vax? You’d have to have imagined it because I never did that.

    How does data that shows different rates of infection for vax/unvax have anything to do with how just a few weeks ago people were pretending that none of those red bars should exist at all? Now, the people who were pretending that have changed their story and are pretending that this has been the story all along.

    frosty (f27e97)

  56. Radegunda (33a224) — 8/18/2021 @ 7:47 am

    I don’t know. I’m not anti-vax. It does look like what the pro-mandate crowd is claiming they are saying.

    frosty (f27e97)

  57. 47. Jim Miller (edcec1) — 8/18/2021 @ 7:32 am

    And, as always, I should mention that epidemiologists mostly agree that the official counts almost always underestimate the number of deaths from COVID. If you are interested in that subject, just search on “excess deaths + COVID” for some sources.

    And they greatly underestimate the total number of infections, which means they overestimate the death rate from infection (of they still try to estimate it)

    And they overestimate the number of people who are in the hospital because of Covid (someone who was in an auto accident but tested positive for Covid is counted, even if asymptomatic. Of course this infection doesn’t help their recuperation any.

    Covid seems to trigger heart attacks, because it can cause clots, if I remember correctly, and this can be the first serious symptom.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  58. At this point, you’re still thinking the unvaccinated are the only ones transmitting the virus.

    No, I think that some of the unvaccinated are infecting the vaccinated and then both transmit the virus, albeit that the latter do so for a much shorter time.

    I have heard anti-vaxxers blame all the transmission on the vaccinated, as some kind of deflection or denial. That is obviously false, just as every last one of their arguments are, but we’ll leave those lies lie.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. Shorter: if everyone was vaccinated we would not be having this discussion again. JUst like we are no longer talking about polio or smallpox.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  60. Almost all people who get the vaccine get mildly sick for a day or two, unless they’ve been previously infected.

    The mRNA vaccines are better protection against a new strain than previous infection with an old strain. Can’t speak to J&J or (worse) the Chinese killed-virus vaccines.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  61. @54

    we should talk about tactical things that will help get the hesitant/lazy across the finish line

    What we should do is present facts honestly. What we shouldn’t do is engage in propaganda attempting to manipulate people into doing what we want. When you’re on a team whose primary tactic is to lie you may want to rethink your team choices.

    frosty (f27e97)

  62. This only gives anti-vaxxers more ammunition the vaccines aren’t effective.

    No. It gives people in denial yet another brick in their wall. It says NOTHING about vaccines being effective since vaccines only harden the target.

    That people who insist on being the weak link in the chain blame the stronger links when the chain breaks does not say anything other than they are doubling down on stupid.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  63. Push back against grifters who are discouraging the shot.

    But what do you say to the people who actively defend their denial? It’s like talking to a drunk who insists that beer makes them a better driver.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. What we should do is present facts honestly

    Physician, heal thyself.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  65. #56 — As others have pointed out, the old definition of effective for the COVID vaccine was never that it blocked any possibility of testing positive or getting a mild case. That’s a straw man that anti-vaxxers use to argue that vaccination is useless at best.

    The evidence has piled up high demonstrating that getting vaccinated reduces your chances of needing to be hospitalized to a tiny fraction of what the unvaccinated face, and your chances of dying from Covid to virtually nil. So the anti-vaxxers are left with the ridiculous claim that unless a preventive measure is 100% effective all the time, it’s useless.

    The anti-vaxxers also are unconcerned that they might be a carrier who passes Covid to an immunocompromised person or a young child.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  66. Frosty, yes, It’s for you. Indiana is showing less then 3% of cases are from vaccinated people. The initial claims of vaccine efficacy was worse then 95%, depending on which version. These results are pretty well in line with initial claims, which were made before the delta variant.

    Claims about the utility of the vaccine appear be pretty correct.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  67. @63, in real life try to be sensitive and encourage them to get the shot. Online? Might go back to characterizing their views as “eating urinal cakes to keep ghosts away”

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  68. @61, I don’t think messaging will help people who don’t want to take the time, or are concerned about lost income, or are worried about losing a day or 2 because of complications. Data I provided in the previous comment sections showed those were meaningful drivers of behavior among minorities and some low income respondents.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  69. @67. “Online? Might go back to characterizing their views as “eating urinal cakes to keep ghosts away”

    Really? Piss on it:

    “Experiment with your own lives, damn it!” – Dr. Charles Dutton [David Wayne] ‘The Andromeda Strain’ 1971

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  70. @62 ~@68

    straw man flash mob

    look out for dog muzzles in your mailbox

    JF (e1156d)

  71. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/18/2021 @ 8:00 am

    I have heard anti-vaxxers blame all the transmission on the vaccinated, as some kind of deflection or denial. That is obviously false, just as every last one of their arguments are, but we’ll leave those lies lie.

    And I’ve also heard vaxxers blame all of the transmission on the unvaccinated. That is also obviously false. It also has a source in various cognitive biases.

    I believe this was very close to a position you’ve taken correct? I’m guessing you’d balk at “all” even though you don’t have any issues taking punitive measures against “all” of the unvaccinated.

    frosty (f27e97)

  72. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/18/2021 @ 8:01 am

    Shorter: if everyone was vaccinated we would not be having this discussion again. JUst like we are no longer talking about polio or smallpox.

    This is not a statement grounded in reality. By “everyone” you have to mean everyone in the world and you have to believe you can do that with a vaccine that prevents transmission before there is any mutation. We do not have a vaccine that can do that.

    frosty (f27e97)

  73. ‘And I’ve also heard vaxxers blame all of the transmission on the unvaccinated.’

    The Biden WH spokesperson for Covid-19 did just that again this morning.

    And, of course, it is the unvaccinated who caused the collapse of Afghanistan, inflation and $5 gasoline, too.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  74. Eugenics must be employed to reduce the number of those with IQs under 100, frosty.

    Colonel Haiku (0c588c)

  75. straw man flash mob

    Are statistics on the efficacy of vaccination a sraw man?
    What about the experience of doctors in hospitals overwhelmed with gravely sick people who refused to get vaccinated?

    Vax-deniers are taking up medical resources that are needed by people with emergencies or illnesses they could not have prevented with a free vaccine. And sometimes they’re basically killing themselves and leaving their families bereft.

    They’re also providing ground for more virulent mutations to appear. But they don’t care until it affects them personally.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  76. #73 — easiest to way to “win” an argument is to ridicule a case that precisely no one is making.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  77. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 8/18/2021 @ 8:09 am

    What we should do is present facts honestly

    Physician, heal thyself.

    This is getting to be a running joke. You continue to make bad analogies and mischaracterize everything that doesn’t fit your worldview. A view that has consistently been shown to be flawed. You just move the goalposts and sling mud at anyone who points it out.

    frosty (f27e97)

  78. He eventually made his way to a facility where he could receive monoclonal antibodies, a lab-produced transfusion that substitutes for the body’s own antibodies. It did not work.

    Why? Too late? The wrong kind, although now everybody is getting Regeneron.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  79. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/18/2021 @ 8:18 am

    Claims about the utility of the vaccine appear be pretty correct.

    You are tilting at windmills. You’re trying to make a point against a position I’m not taking.

    frosty (f27e97)

  80. For eight days he coughed and he having severe fatigue.

    And his doctor started him on antibiotics???

    And didn’t test for Covid?

    And then he took hydroxychloroquine

    Only later did he take the antibodies.

    Yet the mistake this doctor attributes this to is not getting vaccinated at least two to four weeks before he started coughing, and not the failure to test for Covid and give him the antibodies.

    Well, he says this persons reason was that the vaccine was still considered experimental – but so was everything else he did!

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  81. The difference is that once he started coughing he knew he needed too do something, but while he was healthy he didn’t.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  82. Frosty, your point and position is inconsistent from one comment to another. In 61 you accuse me of lying and using propaganda instead of facts. When I explain how the data supports my position (that the vaccine has a high utility, it would be great if everyone that could was vaccinated, and the COVID problem will be vastly improved if we could get everyone able to be vaccinated vaccinated) you say I’m arguing against a position you’re not taking.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  83. Radegunda (33a224) — 8/18/2021 @ 8:17 am

    #56 — As others have pointed out, the old definition of effective for the COVID vaccine was never that it blocked any possibility of testing positive or getting a mild case. That’s a straw man that anti-vaxxers use to argue that vaccination is useless at best.

    And those others are wrong. Until it was obvious that there were “breakout” cases the public messaging was that you wouldn’t get COVID if you got the vaccine. This was obviously false even then but saying that was anti-vax. You’re now hedging it to “we didn’t say any possibility“. You’re packing two strawmen into a criticism of someone else using a strawman.

    Funny story, there were people like me saying that telling everyone these vaccines would keep them from getting COVID and keep it from being transmitted when it was obvious they wouldn’t would only further undermine public confidence. And there were people like you saying shut up, get the vaccine, and stop undermining public confidence.

    So the anti-vaxxers are left with the ridiculous claim that unless a preventive measure is 100% effective all the time, it’s useless.

    Do you have any examples of anyone saying that unless it’s 100% it’s useless?

    The anti-vaxxers also are unconcerned that they might be a carrier who passes Covid to an immunocompromised person or a young child.

    Why can’t we think about the children!?

    frosty (f27e97)

  84. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/18/2021 @ 10:18 am

    Let’s try again. Point me to my comment where I say the vaccine was not effective? It’s not in @34, @37, @40, @46, or @48. It’s not in @55 or @56 where I explicitly say that isn’t my point.

    (that the vaccine has a high utility, it would be great if everyone that could was vaccinated, and the COVID problem will be vastly improved if we could get everyone able to be vaccinated vaccinated)

    Let me say this as clearly as I can. I am not arguing against any of these positions. You are imagining that I am for reasons that I can only guess at.

    I’ll also try to restate this as clearly as I can. In @34 my point is that the goalposts have been moved by people who are now saying something that just a few weeks ago they criticized as anti-vax. They are also trying to pretend that this was always the position and that goalposts were not in fact moved.

    My point has nothing to do with how effective the vaccine is or whether people should get it.

    On @61, if you don’t think the shoe fits don’t keep trying to jam your foot into it like Cinderella’s sister.

    frosty (f27e97)

  85. You called quoted my comment. At 54, quoted it and said “you”. But sure, let’s pretend it wasn’t directed at me.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  86. You referenced my comment at 54, quoted it, and said “you”. But sure, let’s pretend that I’m being delusional for thinking it was directed at me.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  87. How did 85 post? I didn’t hit submit.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  88. ANI… Artificial Non-Intelligence…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  89. @frosty I think I understand where you’re coming from

    The information has always been there, whether on CDC or news conference by the task force that the vaccine wasn’t touted as an immunity mitigation strategy. Only that it reduces the severity of the spread and symptoms.

    Lemme restate what I think you’re driving at – it’s the liberal uses of “the noble lie” by leadership and adherents that’s constantly shifting.

    Do I have that right?

    whembly (fd0490)

  90. Your MD can prescribe off label for many reasons.
    An example is in the link below

    https://www.psycom.net/depression.central.gabapentin.html

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  91. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/18/2021 @ 11:05 am

    I noticed that you didn’t address the actual point in @84. Does that mean you can’t find an example of me saying the vaccine was not effective and you’d also rather not talk about all the goalpost moving? Does this new tangent mean you’re going to avoid all of that now that you think I’ve called you a liar?

    frosty (f27e97)

  92. A key question to ask is “how does Texas report its numbers over the weekend and daily?”
    I’m skeptical of weekend numbers. FLA has changed how it reports to weekly, in part because DeSantis office claims the media uses weekend numbers in their stories and back pages the inevitable revisons.
    Daily numbers as well.
    People are admitted or seen for COVID symptoms and the daily count says one thing.
    Then test reults come in and up to 17% were found to have RSV
    (What is RSV? https://www.webmd.com/lung/covid19-rsv#1)
    That revision is not publicized and when FLA was revising cases down, the media claimed they were lying, so they shifted to a different reporting method

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  93. whembly (fd0490) — 8/18/2021 @ 11:21 am

    Yes. There were always limits to the vaccine. But mentioning that there were limits was wrong-think. Now, the story has shifted to we always knew there were limits, no one ever said otherwise, and claiming that anyone said otherwise is wrong-think.

    More than that part of the reason people aren’t taking the vaccine is a general distrust of authority and a specific distrust of the people pushing the vaccine. Pointing that out is also wrong-think and instead, we need to invent any number of conspiracy theories while at the same time labeling everything else conspiracy theories. That is part of what’s creating the distrust.

    Every day we are living some combination of Animal Farm and 1984.

    frosty (f27e97)

  94. Frosty, you’re at best ‘hard to follow’ on this. It’s not just me, whembly was also not clear what you’re trying to say. So it takes a lot of work to talk with you because of the difficulty getting a clear understanding of your point. Also, you’re insulting and when called on it you want to pretend I’m delusional for thinking you were talking to me.

    But, since you have taken time to be clear I will respond. I you’re wrong. I think the data that’s been presented by myself and others about vaccine hesitancy and resistance provides a much better explanation then your theory in 93 does. But maybe there’s some evidence that I’m missing. Feel free to provide some.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  95. Stunning new poll numbers from Rasmussen Reports suggest nearly 1 in 10 Democrats regret their vote in the 2020 Presidential election, with 12 percent of ‘Moderates’ saying the same, and 14 percent of Black Americans expressing regret.

    Furthermore, asked how people would vote if a presidential election were held today, just 37 percent said they would vote for Joe Biden, down from 45 percent who said they did. Forty-three percent said they would vote for Donald Trump.

    The Details.

    Just 37 percent of voters say they would vote for Biden today;
    13 percent of Democrats say they would vote for Trump today;
    Moderate voters support for Biden has plummeted 13 points, while Trump has gained;
    11 percent of 18-39 year olds regret their 2020 vote;
    14 percent of Black Americans regret their 2020 vote;
    9 percent of Democrats regret their 2020 vote;
    12 percent of Moderates regret their 2020 vote.

    Read the crosstabs: https://thenationalpulse.com/news/stunning-poll-reveals-trump-would-win-election-held-today-as-nearly-1-in-10-democrats-regret-their-2020-vote/

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  96. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 8/18/2021 @ 12:12 pm

    Sounds like Slow Joe’s honeymoon with his electorate is over. The only domicile he should be in right now is a retirement home, not the White House.

    Hoi Polloi (ade50d)

  97. Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/18/2021 @ 11:57 am

    Let’s see, I didn’t mention efficacy, you argued efficacy, I said you missed the point, you complain I’m hard to follow. You avoided all of my questions and changed the subject because you wanted to have a different argument. We’ve been here before and you’re surprised that I’m getting frustrated?

    When you say

    I think the data that’s been presented by myself and others about vaccine hesitancy and resistance provides a much better explanation then your theory in 93 does

    are you referring to Time123 (9f42ee) — 8/18/2021 @ 5:01 am? Why do you think that addresses where the hesitancy is coming from? That data supports the vaccine efficacy. I didn’t see anything there about why there’s a gap. @32 doesn’t have that. Where is the data that you think better explains the hesitancy than the general distrust I mentioned in @93? What exactly do you think my point in @93 is?

    frosty (f27e97)

  98. This is a pretty decent start; https://www.prri.org/research/religious-vaccines-covid-vaccination/

    Plus the points that have been raised in previous threads.

    Here’s an example of the partisan divide from Colorado. I can’t fine the link to larger nationwide sample i posted before, but I don’t think CO is an outlier.

    https://www.coloradohealthinstitute.org/blog/data-show-politics-has-become-powerful-driver-vaccine-hesitancy

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  99. These have been posted in previous threads that you’ve been part of so I assume you’ve seen them before.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  100. @98 your latter link has a link to a post that actually meshes pretty well with frosty’s take:

    “This challenge sits within the context of a much broader distrust among Republicans in the media, in government, and in academia. These institutions are, to varying degrees, tainted by their perceived association with a liberal, ‘globalist’ agenda that cares more about achieving goals than telling the truth,” said Hawkins, who spoke at CHI’s Hot Issues in health conference in 2019.

    Hawkins said the complaints of bias have a degree of validity, which we should acknowledge while still emphasizing the safety of the vaccines.

    American culture is individualistic, and people want the autonomy to make medical decisions for themselves rather than having authorities tell them what to do. Conservative vaccine skeptics share this mindset with their liberal peers.

    https://www.coloradohealthinstitute.org/blog/addressing-vaccine-hesitancy-among-republicans

    they don’t mention anything about urinal cakes

    JF (e1156d)

  101. Also meshes with maga grifters lying to their viewers about risks.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  102. vp on vacation to vietnam
    priceless

    mg (8cbc69)

  103. @101 now you’re taking issue with your own source

    JF (e1156d)

  104. The PRRI link as actual data on motivations.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  105. Vietnam is an ally now, dontcha know. Our Navy makes port calls there.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)


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