Tucker Carlson Is Almost Certainly Killing People
A lot of conservatives are upset at claims by Joe Biden that the lies being spread about the vaccines on Facebook, Fox News, and other places are killing people.
Biden is right. Misinformation like that spewed by Carlson is certainly a substantial factor in some people refusing to get vaccinated. Some people have believed the lies, refused the vaccine as a result of the misinformation, and died as a result of not taking the vaccine.
Tucker Carlson has 3 million viewers. You don’t think any of those three million have refused vaccines in substantial part based on misinformation from his and similar shows? Is this the only issue where his millions of viewers ignore him?
Studies have shown that there is a relationship between those who view the propaganda and those who do not get vaccinated.
Those reporting getting their information from various other media did not show significant differences in vaccine acceptance, but viewers of Fox News did report being more hesitant than viewers of other broadcast news, the research showed. Authors noted that it is possible that individuals gravitate toward the cable news networks that present a view on the pandemic that is aligned with their own opinions.
The conservatives upset with Biden seize on that second sentence to argue that the anti-vax propaganda out there has no effect, because everyone tuning in already believes the anti-vax anyway. Nobody’s mind is changed by Tucker, the argument goes, because Tucker is just telling people what they already believe. That’s why they watch him!
If your argument is that media figures who spew vile and false Trumpist garbage cannot be influencing anyone, because the people who tune in to hear vile and false Trumpist garbage already believe the vile and false Trumpist garbage, you are bypassing the question of how they came to believe vile and false Trumpist garbage to begin with.
You could use that argument to argue that literally no propaganda has any effect on anyone because the people listening to it already believed it. According to this argument, Rush Limbaugh never influenced anyone. Sean Hannity never influences anyone. Tucker Carlson never influences anyone. Donald Trump never influences anyone. All of these people just tell citizens things they already believe. But how did the citizens come to hold these beliefs in the first place? I don’t know! But certainly not because they listened to Trump or Limbaugh or Carlson! Probably the citizens were just . . . born believing the election was stolen and vaccines don’t work.
Does this argument really hold together? Why don’t conservatives make this argument about the liberal media that we all rail about? Does anyone argue that the lies of the New York Times don’t matter because New York Times readers already believe the lies they are told? Is such an argument coherent and persuasive?
It’s the same logic that underlies the view that Trump is purely a symptom of the sentiment out there and not a cause of anything. That’s too simplistic. He’s both a symptom and a cause. If someone had strangled baby Trump in his crib, there likely would not have been an insurrection at the Capitol in 2020, because whoever ran against Biden would not have refused to concede or stuck with a Giant Lie about voter fraud.
What leaders say matter. What presidents say matters. What leading media figures say matters.
Some conservatives relatedly argue that pro-vax people don’t tune into Tucker, so nobody is being flipped from pro-vax to anti-vax. But when we talk about the unvaccinated, we are talking about a wide range of demographics and perspectives. The issue is not merely “has Tucker convinced a pro-vax person to go anti-vax?” It’s not even “has Tucker had a but-for effect on people who were resolutely anti-vax from jump street?” This is a big country with many levels of resistance and/or hesitancy. Many subscribe to insane conspiracy theories and are unpersuadable. But a) many got that way by imbibing misinformation including from Fox News and b) not everyone is completely unpersuadable. Some people are on the fence. And I know millions of people watch Fox News opinion shows for the Real Facts Big Media Won’t Tell You — and the notion that their anti-vax propaganda has zero effect on anyone is, in my view, highly, highly, highly implausible.
The wide range of perspectives out there also encompasses the reality that black and Hispanic communities are more hesitant/resistant on average than white communities. I have seen some conservatives seize on the fact that people of color are being vaccinated at lower rates to argue that most of the unvaccinated are people of color. That doesn’t follow and it’s not true. Because non-Hispanic whites are still a distinct majority in this country, it’s still mostly white folks not getting vaccinated. Don’t take my word for it. Look at the link that most of the conservatives are relying on. It says: “Around two-thirds (64%) of vaccinated adults are White, compared to 56% of unvaccinated adults.” If 56% of unvaccinated adults are white, people of color cannot be a majority of the unvaccinated.
Conservatives also argue that Tucker Carlson can’t have caused all of the unvaccinated because he has only three million viewers — just a fraction of the unvaccinated. Certainly nobody says Carlson is solely responsible for the lack of vaccination in this country. No single person is. But they are all part of the misinformation ecosystem that is persuading people not to be vaccinated. Which kills those people. You don’t have to believe Tucker caused every unvaccinated person not to be vaccinated to believe he is influential. And he’s influential beyond his three million viewers, because they repeat his bullshit to others and it becomes part of the bullshit ecosystem. Just like the New York Times has a long tail of influence that extends beyond the numbers of people who actually read their articles, so too do Laura Ingraham and Tucker Carlson have influence beyond those who tune in. People repeat his garbage on Facebook and Twitter. They repeat it to their friends and family members. It matters.
My argument is not that everyone who watches Tucker, or even most of them, will die. The point is: some people are dying, still, and they are overwhelmingly those who were not vaccinated. About 9,000 died of COVID in the United States in June. Something caused those people not to get the vaccine. Whatever that something was, was a substantial cause of their death. That something may well be a complex set of causes for any given person. But the notion that no part of that something could be misinformation from Fox News, for any of those people, strikes me as so improbable as to be laughable.
It’s interesting to consider why Tucker et al have gone in for vaccine skepticism. There’s money to be made by taking the general suspicion and hate of the right wing towards Biden and finding ways to amplify it. And just because Biden is pushing vaccines therefore is all the reason needed to fight it or mock it.
The hypocrisy of course is a little nauseating. Tucker is undoubtedly vaccinated, as is probably most everybody else at Fox.
The attitude of the vaccine hesitant right currently seems to be – we admit we are children. If you insist we wash our hands before eating we will yell and scream and refuse. We demand that you sit with us and speak in soothing tones, and watch our favorite cartoons with us, and listen to us go on about the magical Election Fraud Fairy we saw the other night, and then, perhaps, we’ll wash our hands.
Victor (9ebafe) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:00 amThis problem isn’t driven by math, or process. This problem exists because a large group of people feel like taking the vaccine diminishes them. That doing so in an admission that the people who insulted them, disrespected their beliefs, and pushed them around are right.
The fact that it’s being pushed by people they hate and distrust adds to the problem. Every time someone like me compares their thoughts about the vaccine to eating urinal cakes it makes them more resistant. What anyone that they feel looks down on them says doesn’t matter. What matters are statements made by leaders they trust. Not trust about math or science, but trust culturally. People they know are on their ‘side’ and respect them.
That’s very much Tucker Carlson. As long as he’s ‘just asking questions’ and showing respect to really stupid ideas of the. anti-Vax this won’t change much. Trump’s recent message where he tired this to the conspiracy theory the election was stolen also made it harder.
If I thought not mocking these losers would help I’d just shut up. But, compared to what their leaders say my input is like pissing into the wind with an empty bladder. So is our hosts (no offense intended). The NYT or WAPO have reach, but no influence with the anti-vax. Their first question isn’t “Did the speaker go to med school and have they studied this? is there a good reason to think they know what they’re about.” It’s “Does the speaker have a great track record of being on my tribe and do I feel like I generally trust them.”
Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:05 ami don’t watch tucker so i’d be interested in what specific vaccine misinformation he’s put out there, and the post offers none unless i missed it
are we interested in everything that might be causing covid deaths, or just certain tucker things?
i don’t know how many people tucker has killed through his free speech or individual free will
i do know nobody seems to be asking how many people are being killed by unvaccinated
future democratsmigrants being let in across the border by an administration that takes the virus and the rule of law so very seriouslywhich number do you think is higher?
JF (e1156d) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:43 amShould pressure by the administration lead to censorship by private companies? Or is Biden just another speaker in the public marketplace?
As I understand it, the administration is trying to get Facebook et al to remove the anti-vaxx “misinformation.” While I, too, think it is misinformation I am concerned that next time it will be my truth that gets cut (e.g. guns can save lives) because powerful people don’t like it.
Censorship by proxy is still censorship.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:04 amOne thing that might happen soon is that private and public institutions might insist on vaccinations to enter their premises. Some companies are making vaccination a condition of employment (and except for those with medical reasons or sincere religious objections, can do so at will).
I wonder if colleges that accept student loan money or research grants can be made to require vaccinations. In the absence of a new law, maybe not; Trump had little success in conditioning federal money on immigration issues.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:10 ami don’t know how many people tucker has killed through his free speech or individual free will
As heir to the Swanson TeeVee Dinner fortune, he has certainly killed plenty of palettes. 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:13 amThat doing so in an admission that the people who insulted them, disrespected their beliefs, and pushed them around are right.
Yes. This is the core of it. And applying more pressure will result in more resistance and/or attempts to circumvent the pressure (such as bogus vaccine certificates).
Were Trump president still, and were he pushing vaccinations (as he would since it favors him), Portland and Seattle would be hotbeds of anti-vaxx agitation, instead of Nashville and Biloxi. Tucker would be contemptuous of the anti-vaxxers and MSNBC would be defending them. Trump’s attempts to get Big Tech to block the disinformation would be compared to book burning by all right-thinking people.
This is not a logical thing at all. Next: Why do people still smoke?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:17 amIt’s not one person or source – it’s a multitude of them.
Now if Tucker Carlson argued the opposite – and didn’t sound like he was making a hostage video – that might move some people.
But he’d have to know what he is talking about, and few people really really do.
By the way, I think Senator Rand Paul does know what he is talking about, and in his repartee with Dr. Anthony Fauci, it was Rand Paul who was lying (because the definition of gain-of-function research is indeed very bad and does not cover what Rand Paul accused Dr. Fauci, correctly, of funding. The worst that Fauci can be accused of is contributing to the idea in China that certain lines of research were worth pursuing. But the research he supported – which after all was somewhat subject to audit – is not the way Covid could have been created)
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:19 amPatterico: this is hardly new. See https://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:19 amIt’s “Does the speaker have a great track record of being on my tribe and do I feel like I generally trust them.”
It’s actually worse than that. If Ted Cruz came out and said “Get an effing vaccine” quite a few Trumpists would decide he’s gone RINO. This is a symptom of a much larger problem.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:22 amReaganaurics!!! Tucka is simply following the lead of the Conservative God:
“A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions tell me that’s true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not.” – Ronald Reagan, March, 1987
“The Devil made me do it!” – Geraldine [Flip Wilson] ‘The Flip Wilson Show’ NBC TV, 1970-74
____________
‘What leaders say matter. What presidents say matters. What leading media figures say matters.’
ROFLMAOPIP! Except it doesn’t. Buyer’s remorse: live long enough and you learn that.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:35 amKevin, I think you’re broadly right, especially since there’s been a huge “crunchy” strain of anti science beliefs by left wing cretins. I think in this specific issue there are leaders for the left, such as Fauci, that would have helped bring along some of the left. But in this counter factual it’s impossible to say for sure.
Regardless, dim witted hippies who mistakenly think rocks make good deodorant, raising awareness counts as doing something, and GMO food is bad for you aren’t the problem atm.
Time123 (740b05) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:36 am5. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:10 am
If it’s a private decision.
But in doing so, these universities are being more Catholic than the Pope, so to speak. That the Food and Drug Administration hesitates to declare the vaccines safe and effective has been a great argument used by the anti-vaccers.
I’ll tell you something else stupid they’re doing: Treating these expiration dates as real. It’s totally crazy.
Or the timing of the second dose of the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines as crucial. Now it would be bad to take a second dose too soon, but the later it is taken, up to at least six months, the better.
The policy about second doses is what caused the New York Yankees to give its people the J&J vaccine because they didn’t have to worry about scheduling that way.
Another stupidity: Calling a person who got the single dose J&J dose “fully vaccinated” but not a person who got a single dose of the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines, even though a single dose of the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines conveys stronger immunity than a single dose of the Johnson and Johnson.
Another stupidity, or more likely, deliberate malfeasance: Not collecting and publishing statistics on what happens to people previously infected who get the vaccine. (best guess: a single dose of Phizer or Moderna adds somewhat to immunity resulting from most infections, but two doses, on the regular schedule, is pointless at best)
And there’s something that’s more a lie than stupidity: Saying that anyone who do not get the vaccine, will get Covid if they didn’t already have it. That is mathematically equivalent to saying you don’t reach “herd immunity” till you reach 100%. But few people would place virtual herd immunity level above 95%
80% may not be enough, though. In India about 6% got the vaccine and about tow thirds have been infected, and it’s not entirely over yet. (in general, people are underestimating the chances of getting Covid but overestimating the chances of getting really sick – and the dose of virus matters)
And then there’s this: Reporting positive tests, but going much slower on the kind of case it is.
And the quarantine policy. Boris Johnson got caught up in it and even withdrew from an “experimental” alternative. The United States doesn’t apply the same rules, so Kamala Harris is not quarantining.
There’s a lot to dispute in the official statements, but what the typical anti-vaxxers say are much worse and often based on nothing true.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:48 amKevin’s reference regarding the ‘Jenny McCarthy types’ is quite valid.
You have to make a distinction between the long-time hardcore ‘anti-vax crowd’ and general “folks” simply skeptical and/or suspicious of quickly cooked and rushed out one-two-and-now-perhaps-three-with booster-shot vaccines coupled with muddled and mixed messaging from the powers that be. You can thank Mr. Reagan for inoculating Righties with the, ‘I’m-from-the-government-and-I’m-here-to- help-you’ bug. Life experience should tell you this.
For August, on Fauci Sci-Fi Theatre: ‘The Zeta Syndrome.’
There’s a tablet for everything in America. Wait. For. The. Pill.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:04 amSomebody’s butt hurt…but maybe it’s just some drunk Irish bonding, as DCSCA may describe it:
urbanleftbehind (f1f6b4) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:29 amhttps://news.yahoo.com/why-tom-bradys-gentle-roast-063040323.html
Tucka’s an entertainer, just like you-know-who:
“How can a president not be an actor?” – Ronald Reagan
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:42 am@15. Mick-messaging? 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:43 amno, i don’t think tucker is killing anyone
if that were the case we’d see a different spread regarding other vaccines, the flu vaccine being the closest example
pre-covid the flu vaccination rates among adults ranged from 41% to 56% depending on the state, and yes red states were on the low end
i don’t think tucker was anti-flu vaccine
what’s happening with covid is the same general vaccine hesitancy among largely the same people who have a distrust of government
but let’s not let a crisis go to waste
JF (e1156d) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:56 am‘Biden is right.’
No. He’s a plagiarist.
“Still, I think he’s [Biden] been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy and national security issue over the past four decades.” – Robert Gates, former CIA & Defense Secretary serving Reagan, Obama, Dubya & Pappy Bush
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:01 pmso glad we finally have an administration taking covid and the rule of law seriously, unlike those other jackwagons
JF (e1156d) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:18 pm‘Tucker Carlson Is Almost Certainly Killing People’
This pix kills =mike-drop= :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_Carlson#/media/File:Tucker_Carlson_at_the_Buckley_School.jpg
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 12:59 pmCable for the flock.
mg (8cbc69) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:18 pmlmao
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2021/07/the_great_vaccination_farce_twice_vaccinated_boris_johnson_ordered_to_selfisolate.html
mg (8cbc69) — 7/21/2021 @ 1:29 pmis this a killing spree by journalists?
Ever the plagiarist, eh Joe?!
The Whisperer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Whisperer
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 2:33 pmRand Paul, Martha Mccalum and The WaPo do an excellent job explaining the strawman Fauci dropped on you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY7UoRQaq2Q
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 2:46 pmIf Tucker is responsible for killing people, then Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are responsible for killing infinitely more people when they incepted the idea that the vaccine is political and shouldn’t be taken based upon which POTUS is pushing it.
“If Donald Trump tells me to take the vaccine, I’m not taking it.” — Kamala Harris, October 7 2020.
Now the very same people are demanding that right leaning personalities (Tucker, Hannity, Trump, deSantis, Abbott, etc) harangue their audiences to get the vaccine even though they spent the past 4 years explicitly telling us they couldn’t be trusted on anything, especially and specifically vaccines.
Sorry, but you can’t wash the blood off the current administration’s hands.
SaveFarris (6139a3) — 7/21/2021 @ 3:34 pmGood news, ‘Fauci Sci-Fi Theatre’ Fans: a fresh greek drama debuts in Texas!
Lambda Variant of COVID-19 identified at Texas hospital. Is it worse than Delta?
A Houston hospital has its first case of the lambda variant of the coronavirus, but public health experts say it remains too soon to tell whether the variant will rise to the same level of concern as the delta variant currently raging across unvaccinated communities in the U.S. -USAToday.com
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/lambda-variant-of-covid-19-identified-at-texas-hospital-is-it-worse-than-delta/ar-AAMpvyt
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 3:53 pmPatterico,
I must commend you on this post. Your write in such a way that your points really pack a wallop. It must be the prosecutor in you. 🙂
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:01 pmif that were the case we’d see a different spread regarding other vaccines, the flu vaccine being the closest example
Here’s a chart of what happened with the MMR vaccine in the late 90’s after the fraudulent autism claim:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/media/images/autism-vaccine-myth-01.width-800.jpg
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:18 pmLambda Variant of COVID-19 identified at Texas hospital. Is it worse than Delta?
What happened to epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, iota and kappa?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:20 pmMaybe they didn’t make it past the Wuhan Labs marketing group.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:21 pmHas Tucker ever said whether he got the vaccine? If not, it’s further proof he shouldn’t be taken seriously.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:36 pm‘I must commend you on this post. Your write in such a way that your points really pack a wallop. It must be the prosecutor in you.’ 🙂
Consider this, norcal- he is a good writer, but one guy has had multiple media & cable network shows-the current one w/3 million domestic viewers nightly and even profits off frozen dinners invented to eat while watching same; the other is at home w/Twitter, quills a pay-to-view opinion newsletter – and a fine, fun blog. Maybe there’s some chumming for a flip; don’t think he’d turn down the cable gig… 😉
Ex-Fox News Reporter Rips Tucker Carlson: ‘Leading Lemmings To Their Own Slaughter’
Carl Cameron slammed the Fox News personality’s “gaslighting” and “propaganda” over COVID-19 vaccines.
“Former Fox News reporter Carl Cameron on Monday called out Tucker Carlson’s doubtful diatribes against COVID-19 vaccines, saying his ex-colleague at the conservative network was “gaslighting” viewers for ratings and revenue.
“It’s about ratings and ratings ultimately become revenue, and that’s the name of the game,” Cameron told CNN’s “New Day” about personalities on Fox and other hyperpartisan media outlets that have questioned the shots. Vaccine resistance has now become a GOP rallying cry, even though the shots have been shown safe and effective.” – source, https://www.huffpost.com/entry/carl-cameron-tucker-carlson-fox-news-covid-19-vaccine_n_60f66ec5e4b09f2b238656dd
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:49 pm@32. Don’t worry about Tucka, norcal— after a diet of Swanson frozen TeeVee dinners, your body is fortified w/enough additives and preservatives to protect you from all plagues of Nature– except death. 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:55 pmWhat happened to epsilon, zeta, eta, theta, iota and kappa?
WHO Tracking SARS-CoV-2 variants
Variants of Interest-Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta
Variants of Concern-Eta, Iota, Kappa, Lambda
CDC SARS-CoV-2 Variant Classifications and Definitions
Variants of Interest-Epsilon, Eta, Iota, Kappa
Variants of Concern-Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:56 pm@30. ‘Lambda Variant’ sounds like the name of some bimbette in the next ‘Austin Powers’ flick, Kevin.
“Oh beeehave!” – Austin Powers [Mike Myers] ‘The Spy Who Shagged Me’ 1999
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:01 pmThere will probably not be variants named zeta or theta since the words sound too much like Eta, which has already been used.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:02 pmMy view is that Covid wasn’t dangerous enough, only killed 600,000+ Americans in a year and a vaccine(s) were miracle in too quickly. It didn’t collapse the economy enough.
It wasn’t as bad as those movies and TV shows. Although it’s not far off of Contagion, that movie got it pretty spot on, but it wasn’t quite that bad.
It wasn’t end of the world alien invasion sun going nova level event. So it couldn’t break through the fever swamps of doing anything to “own the libs” even killing grandma.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:05 pmStarted dipping into a little Tucka after P’s observations some weeks back.
Odd bewildering stare he has… but the tell of the twit: the laugh. Have slammed preppies into their lockers years ago for less. 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 5:07 pmOT:
“Crime is down. Gun violence and murder is up.” – President lagiarist, CNN Town Hall, Cleveland, OH 7-21-21
Idiot.
He’s not all there; he’s a hologram.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 6:00 pm@33 In a sane world, Patterico would receive 100 times more attention than Tucker Carlson.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 6:42 pm@34 I can’t remember the last time I had a TV dinner, but it was probably in the 80s.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 6:56 pm@38 You know what would break through, Klink? Allowing insurance companies to deny coverage, and hospitals to refuse admission, for the unvaccinated (unless they have a valid medical excuse or can pay cash up front).
Watch how fast these folks get with the program if they have to gamble with their own money.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:17 pmHe’s telling his audience what they want to hear, and he is doing them a favor. An existential favor. They may baa nastily, but they’re still sheep:
nk (1d9030) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:20 pmnk, that reminds me of what my uncle used to say when it came to those who did and those who did not believe in an afterlife. To wit: nobody is going to be disappointed.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:31 pmTucker is back at it, this time with Charlie Kirk as a guest, saying that encouraging people to get a jab is “virtue signaling”.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:37 pmI hate to link to MediaMatters, but Ms. Ramirez has a good summary of Tucker’s unhinged comments about CV19 and vaccines. Some examples:
There’s more. Yes, I do believe that Carlson is killing a number of his gullible viewers.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:48 pmI think that works only if there is one with full FDA approval. But 30 seconds later, I’m in.
It’s like Plastic surgery, if you chose to not get the free vaccine, you can have all the Covid treatment you can afford.
There’d be exceptions, but those would be the actual exceptions. I have a cousin who got lyme disease and it kicked off a cascade of other things unlike anything else I’ve ever heard of. Basically, if she get’s Covid, dead, vaccine, dead, flu, dead, tainted Wendy’s chili…so Wendy’s chili dead.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:48 pmIf you don’t feel like reading the entire Brothers Karamazov, “The Grand Inquisitor” chapter can be read as a stand-alone. It’s basically Calvinism but with a twist: “There are reprobates but it’s not kind to tell them that they’re damned. Tell them that what they’re doing is right and that they will be fine … just fine.”
nk (1d9030) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:51 pmYes, it’s signaling you have virtue. That those two Nazi’s add air quotes to virtue, I’m taking them away from Nazi.
Friggin’ Nazi scum.
Sometimes its worth the fine if you see him in public and just drop kick his tiny raisons. I’d say punching is too good for him, and really, it can hurt your hand.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:54 pmState-by-state look at colleges requiring COVID-19 vaccines
It’s a long list.
Rip Murdock (1c44e0) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:05 pmPaul,
Thank you for those just-in-time links about Carlson. They help with a discussion I’m having.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:20 pmThat’s too bad about your cousin, Klink. All the more reason for people who can get the vaccine to get it.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:21 pmYou’re welcome!
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:21 pm@38 You know what would break through, Klink? Allowing insurance companies to deny coverage, and hospitals to refuse admission, for the unvaccinated (unless they have a valid medical excuse or can pay cash up front).
Watch how fast these folks get with the program if they have to gamble with their own money.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 7:17 pm
Yeah, I can’t see any slippery slope there at all.
Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:30 pm42. I can’t remember the last time I had a TV dinner, but it was probably in the 80s.
And it was probably frozen in the 70s– just like President Plagiarist.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:52 pmhttps://redstate.com/mike_miller/2021/07/21/40-border-patrol-agents-test-positive-in-texas-as-number-of-covid-positive-migrants-continues-to-explode-n414234
Biden is almost certainly killing people. Who is President again?
NJRob (eb56c3) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:59 pmYeah, I can’t see any slippery slope there at all.
Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 8:30 pm
Do you think that vaccinated people should subsidize Covid treatment for those who refuse the vaccine without a valid medical reason?
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:06 pm@56 Funny, DCSCA! (Although, I could do without the jab at Biden.)
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:08 pm@57 All of the above, Rob. Vaccinations AND border enforcement.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:09 pmDo you think that vaccinated people should subsidize Covid treatment for those who refuse the vaccine without a valid medical reason?
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:06 pm
I’m vaccinated, but my Biden-voting, Democrat-registered wife is not. I’m perfectly fine with her being subsidized by myself, you, and every other vaccinated individual.
And do you really think such a vindictive, rejection-obsessed policy will be limited to just COVID infections?
Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:11 pmThis is a pretty detailed interview with Dr. Peter A. McCullough, Professor of Medicine, Texas A & M College of Medicine, Baylor Dallas Campus and Tucker hasn’t been mentioned:
https://www.redvoicemedia.com/2021/07/dr-peter-mccullough-urgent-warning-about-poisonous-jabs-an-agonizing-situation/
I imagine there is some problem with the interviewer and the content can be conveniently dismissed for simplistic unrelated reasons. But I am a sucker for what this apparently highly qualified doctor is saying. That doesn’t mean I fully endorse what he is saying. I just think telling him to shut up because “Tucker” would be the hallmark of disingenuous.
Anyways, I hope everyone here, including Dana and Patterico give this a listen in its entirety. This is a more likely reason that people are hesitant, IMO.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:37 pmFWO,
It’s not vindictive. It’s treating people like grownups, and letting them own the consequences of their choices. The rejecters are the ones who reject the vaccine.
It might not be limited to just Covid infections. Insurance companies may propose charging a higher premium for smokers or overweight people. I’m fine with that. We already disincentivize bad behavior when it comes to the price of automobile insurance premiums.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:41 pmIt’s not vindictive. It’s treating people like grownups, and letting them own the consequences of their choices. The rejecters are the ones who reject the vaccine.
This ground has already been well-covered. I’m fine with insurance companies, including the government, rejecting people who didn’t take a COVID vaccination as long as they do the same with every fat person with diabetes who has to take insulin or needs a quadruple bypass. If we’re going to enact such a draconian policy, it should apply to any medical treatment where personal choice came in to play.
It might not be limited to just Covid infections. Insurance companies may propose charging a higher premium for smokers or overweight people. I’m fine with that. We already disincentivize bad behavior when it comes to the price of automobile insurance premiums.
Then we should enact your policy for every single bad medical decision ever made.
Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 9:47 pm@64 I agree with your first paragraph. The second was a little too reductio ad absurdum.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:06 pm@64 I agree with your first paragraph. The second was a little too reductio ad absurdum.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:06 pm
Your proposal isn’t going to happen regardless, so I doubt either of us will get our wish.
Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:11 pmSounds like he had quite the Townhall.
I will see to wait for the transcript before I condemn his remarks based off the video clip at the link, but if the context is correct then I see another big whopping reason that people might be hesitant.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:13 pmI will wait for the transcript…
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:14 pmYour proposal isn’t going to happen regardless, so I doubt either of us will get our wish.
Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:11 pm
Of course it won’t happen. Most of the ideas discussed on this blog won’t happen. Such is the fate of wonks.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:17 pmI haven’t listened to McCullough, but I do know that he’s on Orac’s anti-vax sh-t list, with good reason, particularly when the doctor is claiming the vaccine to be part of some depopulation agenda.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/21/2021 @ 10:58 pmStew Peters is the full-blown crank who trafficked in the nonsense that the vaccines are magnetic, and that vaccines are part of “the most calculated mass murder ever orchestrated against global citizens in the history of the world.”
Paul, I can’t understand why actual MDs peddle this crap. Is ordinary medicine so boring that they’ll say anything to get in the spotlight?
norcal (a6130b) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:09 pmThis ground has already been well-covered. I’m fine with insurance companies, including the government, rejecting people who didn’t take a COVID vaccination as long as they do the same with every fat person with diabetes who has to take insulin or needs a quadruple bypass. If we’re going to enact such a draconian policy, it should apply to any medical treatment where personal choice came in to play.
Except that one is a simple choice, involving no bother at all other that getting their head out of their ass, and the other involve significant changes in living and may not really be possible for some.
BTW, obesity and addiction often have little “personal choice” involved. Genetics and psychiatry play a bigger role. But since you’ve not experienced either of these, you have only your assumptions to work with.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:13 pmThen we should enact your policy for every single bad medical decision ever made.
Not getting a shot is a “bad medical decision” much the same as “running with scissors” is.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:15 pmGreat illustration of why ppl should get the vaccine.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:19 amAaand link
https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/2021/07/how-uk-s-covid-19-vaccine-rollout-has-dramatically-reduced-deaths
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:19 amHere’s a link to a study linking Fox viewership to lower vaccination ratings. Doesn’t mention Tucker by name. Study is linked I the Twitter thread
https://twitter.com/matteopins/status/1417594280764391424?s=21
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:25 amPretty much how I predicted the conversation to go.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:42 amKevin, my employer provided insurance includes a discount for non-smoking. My previous employer would give us 1,500$ if we did things that included a physical, attending a yoga class, class on nutrition, etc. there was a list and I think we had to pick 3, but I’m not sure.
Point is that we’ve already started modest behavior incentives with health insurance.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:48 am“Pretty much how I predicted the conversation to go.”
But did you read Paul’s attached article? I’ll add another below. McCullough’s claim that vaccinations are a way to mark people and control behavior seems a little bit out of his area of expertise, which is cardiology. The problem here is that science by youtube is somewhat questionable. Peer review is the gold standard….standing up to scrutiny of your peers and answering hard questions with solid evidence or supportable theories….or not. This is why the media should be double careful to market opinions that are not widely accepted in the medical community. I’m a little nervous when McCullough claims that he could have saved all of these suffering covid people if only they had gotten his special cocktail of treatment, which invariably includes hydroxychloroquine. Hey, science is a battle of evidence….and careful reasoning…..McCullough can either persuade other medical experts or he can’t. Going on Tucker Carlson allows him to bypass that approval…and be interviewed by someone who does not have the expertise to ask hard questions. It should trigger an alarm…..
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/vaccines-are-a-safer-alternative-for-acquiring-immunity-compared-to-natural-infection-and-covid-19-survivors-benefit-from-getting-vaccinated-contrary-to-claims-by-peter-mccullough/
AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 7/22/2021 @ 6:25 amSundown you better take care
If he finds you been talkin’ to CornPop again…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWUyXPpVEQ
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/22/2021 @ 6:26 am@77, Buduh Audi is tough. most ppl read much faster then the spoken word. So an audio takes far longer to engage then a transcript. An article is even faster since it will have been edited to be concise. The other problem with the audio is how much is communicated with tone and amount of focus. For all of that it’s hard to engage with audio and most people need a good reason; it’s entertaining, it’s highly credible, the speaker or their POV can only be accessed there etc.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 6:41 amI did. Orac, in his lengthy wordsmithing and high and mighty tone said: “ Peter McCullough, who’s known for pushing a narrative of a COVID-19 “vaccine holocaust.” .” I followed his hyperlink that was his self-source and found this:
I found most of his other annoyances to be with the hosts of the various shows and I found several inaccuracies between the videos and his interpretations. In a nutshells he doesn’t like McCullough and he will use any tool he has to convince others of the same.
I will take a look at your article as well, AJ, but I lack the time to have this extended debate.
BTW, did you finish the video at my link? What are your personal thoughts?
BuDuh (829305) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:04 amI have no clue as to what point you are making, Time.
BuDuh (829305) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:06 am@83, if you post audi from a crazy pants podcast don’t be surprised if people don’t agave deeply with it.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:10 amAJ, your link wants me to go through a captcha process to access their archive to see the video they criticize. If you wouldn’t mind finding the actual video and posting it, I would appreciate it. I do not have the time to make troublesome links more accessible just to scrutinize them. Spending my time reading and watching everyone else’s links should be commitment enough.
Thanks.
BuDuh (829305) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:16 amStew Peters had to go to Rumble because Facebook/YouTube banned him for his conspiracy theories and lies, and McCullough made the deliberate decision to go on that guy’s format.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:17 amIt’s startling to me how many otherwise highly educated people like McCullough go this route. The debunked Plandemic video had an MD on it, for example.
A good friend of mine is 70 years old and college-educated, but he won’t get a vaccine because he fell for the anti-vax stupidity, passing on the Plandemic video before it was shoved off. His reasoning is not too different from Ron Johnson’s (he even looks a little like him), that he’s asking the questions and wants all the information to come out. The real question is where he’s getting his “information”, such as when he alleged fraud and machine-rigging in Antrim County.
There is definitely a media ecosystem out there and it is not healthy. We have a couple other friends who became complete QAnon nutters, reminding Mrs. Montagu and me from time to time that “the storm is coming”.
Ahh. “Shoot the messenger.” I should have guessed that, since I did predict that.
I do have to run.
BuDuh (829305) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:18 amIn a sane world, Patterico would receive 100 times more attention than Tucker Carlson.
Uh, no. Patterico argues logically, from facts. This is unappealing to many for the same reasons that Brutus’ principled arguments against Caesar could not overcome Marc Antony’s frothy eulogy.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:50 amagave
Ahh… margaritas in the morning…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:55 amState-by-state look at colleges requiring COVID-19 vaccines
Interesting. My alma mater, which draws significant numbers of students from Asia, is on the list. Given that vaccine penetration in Asia is poor (and much of it is a 3rd-rate Chinese vaccine), I wonder how this will work. Perhaps they will allow early entry and vaccination here.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:57 amPoint is that we’ve already started modest behavior incentives with health insurance.
Oh, no doubt. I just disagree with the comparison of “getting a shot” with “quitting smoking.” I’ve done both and one was easier than the other. Not to mention losing double-digit percentages of body mass.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:03 amCurrently, the federal government coerces insurers to waive co-pays and deductibles in Covid-related treatments. Doctors and hospitals, too, for the uninsured. The feds pay for all vaccinations.
At some point they will have to stop doing this. Why not stop with the unvaccinated first? It was done as an emergency measure, but the emergency is over and we now are dealing with people who willfully remain in harm’s way.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:10 amAs for Tucker:
I would like to see him sued, as a class-action, by the survivors of those viewers who refused the vaccine on the basis of his statements and subsequently got Covid and died. See “Joe Camel” for precedent.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:13 amKevin, I think it also shows a pattern that these types of incentives are applied in a rational way.
For instance it’s “Not Lose 10% of your weight”. It’s “take a class on nutrition”
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:16 am@60 well gee, that solves that problem
except you’d have to tune in to fox news to hear anything about the latter
what a dilemma
JF (e1156d) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:16 amYes, BuDuh, I am shooting Stew Peters the crank messenger. I fully admit it.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:22 amYou may do it differently, but I vet sources to ascertain their credibility. The question is why you didn’t.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 4:20 pm
They are not as contagious, and Delta is immunizing people against them.
Alpha is what used to be called the UK variant but now almost every single case there is delta. The UK has reached at least partial immunity of about 92% of the population. The proportion of people who are hospitalized who are young has gone up, but the death rate of those hospitalized has gone down.
Here are the new and the old names:
– From the June 1, 2021 Independent.
Lambda was first detected in Peru in December 2020, it’s predominant in Spanish speaking South America) and in a traveler in hotel quarantine in New South Wales in April but apparently took longer to get its letter and wasn’t on the original Greek slphabet list.
They may not watching epsilon, zeta, and theta any more, but only eta, iota, kappa and lambda, in addition to alpha, beta, gamma and delta and the original. Or maybe mostly it’s just Alpha, Delta, and Kappa.
I think there were two variants originally that came out of China, from two different lab leaks. The first one was milder and spread further in China.
But it almost all delta now, or quickly becoming so, at least in areas where there has been substantial vaccination.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:51 am93. It’s much bigger than Tucker, and anti-vaccination arguments long ago achiieved escape velocity.
Who would sue him? Pfizer?
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:53 am97. And then there’s Delta+
https://thelatch.com.au/covid-variant-names-delta-plus
Delta Plus is not reported as more infectious, but when you get it, it’s worse, for a while – the body takes longer to generate an effective immune response. I think this is maybe what was earlier called the “double mutaton” – in any case it was associated with Nepal and was called AY.1. The K417N mutation is also present in beta (South Africa) and is a lysine-to-asparagine substitution at position 417.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:54 amHere are some statistics from the United Kingdom:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/opening-its-economy-as-delta-variant-surges-the-u-k-becomes-a-covid-19-test-case-11626884725
Daily cases in January: 60.000
6=day average of new cases July 20: 47,700 – 2 1/2 times the number at the end of June and 14 times the number at the end of May. Health Secretary Sajid Javid, who may being counted as one of these July cases, on spite pf being vaccinated, says the number may top 100,000 within weeks. Weeks?
Daily hospital admissions in January: 4,000
Daily hospital admissions now: around 600.
Daily deaths in January: More than 1,200
Daily deaths now: around 40.
Deaths per hospital admission January: 1,200/4,000 or 30%
Deaths per hospital admission now: 40/600 or 6.7%
Numerator and denominator may not correspond.
Deaths possibly heading to 200 or 300 a day.
14% if hospital admissions are people in their 50s who are considered fully vaccinated (the UK possibilities include a weak vaccine) and 45% of deaths are of people in their 50s who have been fully vaccinated – it seems to say.
Two thirds of adults are considered fully vaccinated in the UK and 60% in the USA. 92& of adults in the UK are at least partially vaccinated or had a past infection.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:54 amWhat killed people was the delay in approving vaccines and medical treatments last year.
The approval process had such conditions so that a vaccine could not, pretty much mathematically, get approved even for emergency use unless many more people died, because without many people getting sick, it would be impossible to prove, with enough statistical power to satisfy regulators, that the vaccines were more effective than the placebos were.
People learned from the vaccine hesitancy of the FDA to doubt the value or fear the danger of vaccines.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:06 amBut it almost all delta now, or quickly becoming so, at least in areas where there has been substantial vaccination.
For the same reason that the virus that spreads is never the one immunized against: vaccines work.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:06 amPeople learned from the vaccine hesitancy of the FDA to doubt the value or fear the danger of vaccines.
On the Enterprise, whenever Dr McCoy synthesized a vaccine against something he tried it on himself, and if he didn’t die immediately he gave it to everyone else.
Why? Because the absence of a vaccine was worse.
I think there’s something to be learned from that.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:10 amnorcal @59-
@56 Funny, DCSCA! (Although, I could do without the jab at Biden.)
Jabbing Biden is the reason for DCSCA’s existence.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:12 amI think the vaccine has been marketed poorly. We’ve tried to use logical methods to get people to accept it when it is quite clear from people like Tucker that we should be using anything but.
Example: Don’t make it free. Make it $500. The affluent will make a beeline for it as it has both value and exclusivity. In no time at all, some do-gooders will sue and a court will order it made available to all. At which point, people are getting a $500 vaccine for free and sticking it to the Man. Line forms to the left.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:19 amJabbing Biden is the reason for DCSCA’s existence.
Well, Nixon and Reagan, too.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:20 amTexas has seen nearly 9,000 COVID-19 deaths since February. All but 43 were unvaccinated people.
Of the 8,787 people who have died in Texas due to COVID-19 since early February, at least 43 were fully vaccinated, the Texas Department of State Health Services said.
That means 99.5% of people who died due to COVID-19 in Texas from Feb. 8 to July 14 were unvaccinated, while 0.5% were the result of “breakthrough infections,” which DSHS defines as people who contracted the virus two weeks after being fully vaccinated.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:26 am…….
As of Monday, 42.8% of Texans have been fully vaccinated; the state continues to lag behind the national vaccination rate of 48.8%, according to the Mayo Clinic.
…….
That comment was to Time. Sorry it triggered you.
Anyways, I go to the actual source. That is how I know what your expert misrepresented. You, in reality, didn’t bother with that kind of thoroughness and our conversations fail as a result. I will put no more effort into trying with you. Please continue with your moral high ground lectures without me.
BuDuh (829305) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:33 amHow would I know you were answering T123, BuDuh. You didn’t reference his name and your comment was right after mine, six minutes later.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:52 amPlease tell me how I failed this “thoroughness” test of yours. Orac was actually responding to a different video (where McCullough was being interviewed by a John Birch crank), but the general anti-vax themes were there, including his misrepresentation of VAERS.
25.
Yes, I know all that (except for the detail aout the NIH definition.
Rand Paul knows that Dr. Fauci did not come up with that limited definition of gain-of-function research now, but back during the Obama Administration, so it is a legitimate, even if paradoxical sounding and even crazy distinction. (like outlawing dum dum bullets only against soldiers)
According to his definition, which had important legal consequences from 2014 to 2017, gain-of-function research is making a virus that can infect humans more infectious; but making a virus that only infects animals capable of infecting humans is not.
And it also true that the research he funded did not create Covid-19, although the idea behind it could have. (The Chinese also did their own, secret, research. All the time.)
Josh Rogan has it good:
https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/1417609272427483145
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 10:00 am102. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:06 am
So what is the official public health messaging?
People should get vaccinated in order to prevent the emergence of a variant which will be worse.
Worse in what way? The vaccine won’t work?! Or what?
The idea is, the fewer cases, the fewer opportunities to mutate. Not that you’d get rid of it in all of the world by vaccinating everybody in the USA.
And what happened to the theory of overuse of antibiotics?
BTW: The vaccines, even though they are all made against a variant that may have disappeared, is around 90% as good against Delta. That’s because there is much less mutation than is the case with the flu.
Updating the vaccine has all sorts of regulatory burdens and is time consuming (scientifically, it’s very simple and fast – slower to manufacture) but the vaccine companies will try, in the guise of providing a booster shot.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 10:15 amKevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 9:10 am
This is the way they did things from about 1880 to 1950 and it seeped into popular culture.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 10:16 amThere are two ways they could have used to validate the vaccine
1. They could have used a proxy marker (the same not so good thing they are doing with the ineffective Akzheimmer;s drug)
In the cae of vaccines, antibodies, which is a good proxy. We shouldn’t suspect big surprises.
2. They could ave deliberately infected some very healthy people people with a little of the virus –
Ethically suspect, especially since there was no standard cure. They don’t do that with prison volunteers now even.
As for preliminary safety testing – the vaccine companies did that, and there doesn’t seem to be a way to avid the phase 1 trials. Well, they can test it on a variety of animals.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 10:30 amI’ll have to watch the video later….life as intervened
AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 7/22/2021 @ 10:35 am@Buduh, I didn’t know that was at me. You’re wrong, shooting the messenger is when you attack someone for bringing you bad news that’s correct. That’s not what I did. I was trying to point out that people aren’t going to put a lot of work into debunking crank ideas.
The anti-vax position isn’t flat earth stupid. But it’s in that ballpark. No one feels much obligation to treat it seriously
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/22/2021 @ 10:39 amKatherine Schoonover
@Katherine_VA
If the Democrats wanted people to think that they were involved in the unleashing of covid on the world then this was the way to do it.
*************************
Chuck Callesto
@ChuckCallesto
· Jul 21
BREAKING REPORT: House Democrats Block Bill to Declassify Intel on ORGINS OF COVID-19 Virus…
https://twitter.com/Katherine_VA/status/1417953453960273929
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/22/2021 @ 11:38 amI’m sure the Democrats have their reasons…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/22/2021 @ 11:44 amhttps://www.news-medical.net/news/20210507/The-ancestor-of-SARS-CoV-2e28099s-Wuhan-strain-was-circulating-in-late-October-2019.aspx
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 12:04 pmThere are two ways they could have used to validate the vaccine
3) They could have given the vaccine to every nursing home patient, on the theory that they were at great risk anyway.
4) They could have given the vaccine to every incarcerated felon, offering them a term reduction if they agreed.
5) 3 & 4
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 12:10 pmOr, they could just have said: “We think this vaccine is good. We’re pretty sure it won’t kill you. We might be wrong. Who wants it?”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 12:12 pmSo what is the official public health messaging?
Every flu season we hear the same idiotic whine: “I don’t want the flu shot because it never covers the strains that people get.”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/22/2021 @ 12:15 pmI think you would worry about the vaccine being too much for very old and fragile people.
Here is something about breakthrough cases:
https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/covid-delta-variant-risk-vaccinated-breakthrough-cases.html
He might have had a mild case, as Covid cases go.
This does not say or speculate about what vaccine he got, and when, or what he and others might have been exposed to. (how much virus and what kind.)
He also probably did not treat it.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 1:10 pm@104/106 Reminding conservatives who abandoned their party and voted for the lying, brain-damaged persona of the near-dead plagiarist or an alternative over the sordid persona of his opponent and his bull-in-a-china-shop lifestyle– simply because they didn’t like him, deserves poking. And, for norCal, so do Angie, Linda… and Joan. 😉
“That’s quite a stab, from old flab.” – Bob Hope ‘Road To Hong Kong’ 1962
______
Kevin, GOP conservatives need reminded, blamed or smacked w/a newspaper on the snout for their part in the damage they have done creating the hellish world of modern American society on so many levels and acknowledge responsibility for it. Or they’ll keep getting their noses rubbed into the carpet like a bad puppy peeing on it a well. They railed again FDR well for decades– well into the 1970s–as blame for all the national woes… 32 of the past 52 years have been GOP/conservative administrations w/GOP CiC’s. So stop whining– or jut stop peeing– on Uncle Sam’s carpet. 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/22/2021 @ 1:54 pm@123 When it. comes to your taste in women, DCSCA, you’re batting .666, which leads to another thought…:)
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 3:39 pm@123 When it comes to your taste in women, DCSCA, you’re batting .666, which is a very interesting number…
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 3:41 pmSorry for the duplication. There was some glitch in Word Press, I think.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 3:42 pmPaul,
You used the phrase “John Birch crank”. The last word is superfluous. 🙂
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 3:44 pm@124/125. Suspect you’re at odds w/Joan– but then she has always played the role of a devilish sort. 😉 A little bad girl in your life is good for the soul, norcal. 😉
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/22/2021 @ 4:00 pmYou nailed it, DCSCA. I don’t have anything against brunettes, but I’ve never understood all the hubbub over Joan Collins.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 4:14 pm@129. I don’t have anything against brunettes, but I’ve never understood all the hubbub over Joan Collins.
Hubbub?? Are you kidding?!?!? “Hubba-hubba, bub!” 😉
Take a gander at these:
https://comicbooksgalaxy.com/joan-collins-hot-pictures/
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/22/2021 @ 4:25 pm116. t passed the Senate unanimously in May.
Meanwhile
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/564386-white-house-blasts-chinas-dangerous-rejection-of-coronavirus-origins
Biden is turning against China in spite of himself.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/22/2021 @ 4:34 pmMr Murdock wrote:
This is a pretty poor story. When the timeline used is “since early February,” the problem becomes that the vaccines were not available to people under 70 at that point.
When months in which the vaccination rate was very low, due to short supply and the ‘tier’ restrictions, are included, it skews the results concerning the percentage of people who got sick or died.
How about a more reasonable comparison:
Note that it’s 19.5% in fully vaccinated people; there was no breakdown that included only partially vaccinated people.
I’d guess that the number of ‘breakthrough’ cases is far higher. Why? If you are fully vaccinated, why get tested unless you are sick? Since the vaccines are supposed to make COVID cases milder if you do get infected, then there should be a smaller percentage of vaccinated vis a vis unvaccinated people being tested, and that would skew the percentages downward, perhaps significantly. (Kind of difficult to measure a negative, you know.)
The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48) — 7/22/2021 @ 4:47 pmAnd, of course, no fully vaccinated person would ever want to be tested, From CNBC:
If you are fully vaccinated, getting tested if you are not sick can only mean a potential restriction in your life, so why get tested if you can avoid it?
The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48) — 7/22/2021 @ 4:49 pmI surrender, DCSCA. She’s beautiful.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:30 pmOther Dana, 2,491 have died in TX from CV19 since May, and May is when most or all at-risk folks had the chance of getting a shot. Assuming all 43 vaccinated dead people also died from May forward, that’s still only 1.7% of the total, at most. The pattern is unmistakable.
Paul Montagu (5de684) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:30 pmThe Lexington example is about cases, not deaths, and it’s well established that vaccinated people who get infected have less severe symptoms and are less prone to die or fill hospital beds.
#134 “[W]hy get tested if you can avoid it?”
So you can learn whether you are infectious and can then avoid giving it to other people. (I have seen claims that the Delta variant causes you to shed more than a 1000 times as many virus particles as earlier variants, which would explain why it is so infectious.)
(There are, of course, a few evil people who want to give their diseases to others.)
Jim Miller (edcec1) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:41 pmDCSCA @130,
That phrase brings to mind some family lore. While on a family vacation to the South in 1978, we stopped at a water park to have some fun. My four-year-old brother approached a lady in the park (I think it was near the top of the water slide) and said, “Hubba hubba, ding ding. Baby, you got everything.”
We still laugh about it.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, my brother grew up to be a rather wild boy. He did NOT serve a Mormon mission like his brother. 🙂
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 5:47 pmExcept that one is a simple choice, involving no bother at all other that getting their head out of their ass, and the other involve significant changes in living and may not really be possible for some.
BTW, obesity and addiction often have little “personal choice” involved. Genetics and psychiatry play a bigger role. But since you’ve not experienced either of these, you have only your assumptions to work with.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:13 pm
Not shoving fast food down your gullet and eating a salad instead is pretty much the definition of a personal choice.
Not getting a shot is a “bad medical decision” much the same as “running with scissors” is.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/21/2021 @ 11:15 pm
Ask the military members who took the anthrax vaccine about that one.
Factory Working Orphan (2775f0) — 7/22/2021 @ 6:03 pmBetty Crocker must be the reincarnation of Marie Antoinette. You know … cake?
nk (1d9030) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:53 pm@140 Ha! Yes. She made sure the job was complete.
norcal (a6130b) — 7/22/2021 @ 7:57 pmYes, can we please do that. Fine, I feel just fine. Didn’t get anthrax even though exposed, supposedly, and was vaccinated for Covid as early as possible, didn’t get that either.
So overall, I feel pretty freakin’ good about it. And you, who neither served, nor are willing to disclose your vaccination status, only that you are doofus, are feeling…stoopid? Misunderstandinged?
Learn about a thing before you begin to leverage it for some third purpose. You’re wrong on point, wrong on second order effects, and wrong in comparison of either to Covid.
Wrong, like a clearly wrong person who is wrong quite often…being wrongerer, longerer.
Wait, I hear the whine pre-time, nuh-uh. and I pre-answer uh-huh.
Effing Richard Cranium.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:13 pm140.Betty Crocker must be the reincarnation of Marie Antoinette. You know … cake?
A common error amongst mere ‘peasants’ … 😉
“Let them eat cake” is the traditional translation of the French phrase “Qu’ils mangent de la brioche”, said to have been spoken in the 17th or 18th century by “a great princess” upon being told that the peasants had no bread. The French phrase mentions brioche, a bread enriched with butter and eggs, considered a luxury food. [not “cake” as we know it]. The quotation is taken to reflect either the princess’s frivolous disregard for the starving peasants or her poor understanding of their plight. While the phrase is commonly attributed to Marie Antoinette, she did not originate it and she probably never said it. -source, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake
OTOH, ‘let them eat my family’s frozen Salisbury steak in gravy with peas, mashed potatoes and apple cobbler … it’s yummy,‘ almost certainly has been uttered by Tucka.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:26 pm“Ask the military members who took the anthrax vaccine about that one.”
When I joined the Air Force, in basic training they hit you with a half dozen shots, in the same arm, with a jet injector. It was painful but I’ve never caught any of the diseases I was immunized against.
Davethulhu (aa6793) — 7/22/2021 @ 8:28 pmBill Would Strip Social Media of Protections for Health Misinformation
As I’ve said before, censorship by proxy. They could not pass a law that criminalized such speech, so they pass a law making private companies liable if they fail to censor.
If this works, I have a few more things I’d add to the list.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 1:34 amI’m pretty sure that if such a law passed, our host would ban ALL discussion of health topics. Assuming he still allowed comments.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 1:35 amMr M wrote:
The left might like that. How many readers would our caretaker from Compton have were he to end the comments section? And who could afford to allow comments without the liability protections, because it only takes a second for someone to post something that might be actionable, and another second for someone to document it with a link and screen capture.
End comments, and you cripple private publication of speech, which is very much what the children and grandchildren of the Berkeley Free Speech Movement seem to want.
The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48) — 7/23/2021 @ 5:14 amMr thulhu wrote:
But you did volunteer for that, didn’t you?
The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48) — 7/23/2021 @ 5:17 amMr Miller wrote:
Using that logic, you must wear a double-mask all day long, every day, and stay ‘socially distant’ from everyone, because you can never know if you have picked up the virus since your last test. This would have to include in your own home, if you do not live alone, because you could infect your wife or children or Jeff Bezos when he delivers your groceries.
I’d point out here that, since the vaccine is an intramuscular injection rather than a pill, the nurse who vaccinated you could not have maintained social distancing.
The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48) — 7/23/2021 @ 5:26 amMr M wrote:
It’s one thing to snark that in the comments section of a blog, but I have noted that a whole lot of those trying to persuade the reticent to go ahead and get vaccinated have been telling the people they supposedly want to persuade that they are stupid. Not exactly a sales pitch of which Dale Carnegie would have approved.
The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48) — 7/23/2021 @ 5:31 amI agree, telling these morons that they’re cretins will make it harder to manipulate them into doing what everyone that isn’t busy eating urinal cakes has already done.
If I thought anyone actually unvaccinated might read that I wouldn’t have said it.
We need to test these fools with compassion and respect even if there’s nothing about this choice to justify it.
I’ll say this though, everyone makes mistakes and think dunking on ppl who stop being conspiy theorists is an uncalled for mistake.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:08 amIf you believed they put a man on teh moon
Meant to mislead, the lines they feed to this goon…
https://spectator.org/cnn-town-hall-biden/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:14 amthe nurse who vaccinated you could not have maintained social distancing.
I’m pretty sure she’s aware of that.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:45 amBiden is horrible and clearly doing a poor job in many areas.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:46 amWhat if their misinformation is coming from the Centers for DDisease Control?? What if they change their recommendation, but it is not updated on Facebook fast enough?
Last night Dr, Fauci was intervuewed by Norah O’onnell on the CBS Evening News and conveyed what I feel is misinformation. He was asked if someone got the Johnson and Johnson vaccine should they now get the Pfizer pr Moderna – and if he would.
He echoed the party line: No. (a little bit cautiously because he knew the answer might change to yes)
Maybe you can find it here:
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/072221-cbs-evening-news
https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_evening_news
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:47 amEnd comments, and you cripple private publication of speech
Which is why such a law, with its “chilling effect” on certain points-of-view, would fare no better than the original CDA. If you cannot ban pr0n, you can’t ban this.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:47 amBiden is horrible and clearly doing a poor job in many areas.
To be fair, he’s just the front-man for the Party.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:49 amTucker and Fox News has corrupted the minds of SEIU leadership?!?! Oh no!!!!
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 7:50 amNice bad faith argument.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:06 amDear healthcare workers:
You can all die for all we care — your choice — but you work with members of the public who are entrusted to your care, so it’s not just about you.
As for your union, I wonder if they would change their position if they shared liability for any infection its protected members passed along. Because your local has just put its crank in the gears.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:11 amThe EEOC has stated that requiring vaccinations as a condition of employment is perfectly legal, so long as those who have a relevant medical condition or sincerely-held religious objection are offered accommodations.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:14 amThe union includes members that are stupid. The union leadership is backing those members because it’s politically expedient for them. They make it clear they think everyone should get vaccinated which makes their stance here even more cowardly. They need to do better.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:23 amIf a union demands that its workers be allowed to work unvaccinated in hospitals, then one of them infects a cancer/AIDS/transplant patient, the hospital will get sued. And rightly so. How the union escapes that liability is beyond me.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:30 amUnion doesn’t have actual authority to make the decision. The hospital does. So the union is free to dishonestly advocate for both positions.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:46 amThe greatest trick the SEIU ever pulled was convincing some Americans that the union wasn’t among the money launderers the Democrat Party employs.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:52 am?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:56 amTourette’s
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:59 amMaybe the headline of this article should be:
Tucker Carlson, Stupid Union Members, and Union Leadership Are Almost Certainly Killing People
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 8:59 amNobody seemed this hostile when unvaccinated healthcare workers diligently cared for the covid stricken pre-vaccine. There must be some peer reviewed double-blind study that details how those workers were in the wrong back when everyone placed them on a pedestal.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:04 amI’d point out here that, since the vaccine is an intramuscular injection rather than a pill, the nurse who vaccinated you could not have maintained social distancing.
The nurse that vaccinated me was wrapped up in a disposable suit, double-gloved, face mask, face shield, head covering, etc. And this was outside a hospital setting.
Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:08 amRemember… as Abraham Lincoln said, “80% of what you find on the internet is fake.”
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:10 am@168, that seems in line with the information
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:12 amThe nurse that vaccinated me was wrapped up in a disposable suit, double-gloved, face mask, face shield, head covering, etc.
That is one smart nurse!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:13 amYeah… about that:
Without more information I can only tell you my opinion. My opinion is that the only way that many vaccinated people, in a hospital like settling, can contract Covid is if some of the vaccinated are contributing to the spread, just like the Texas/DC Dem debacle. I could be wrong so I will wait for the full report.
If I am correct then I believe that an overconfident vaccinated health care worker, who spreads covid to a cancer/AIDS/transplant patient will probably get the hospital sued as well. These patients need certain protocols followed and they need to follow certain protocols themselves.
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:16 amSince my previous post blaming Tucker and Fox was disingenuous and my current one is in line, where do you suppose SEIU is getting the misinformation?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:18 amBased on the article the union wants everyone vaccinated but is backing their members who don’t want to get vaccinated. Nothing in the article told me anything about the members motivation.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:20 amI asked for your supposition and that provided a roadblock. I should have asked for your assumption.
Where do you assume SEIU is getting the misinformation?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:31 am🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9BSLm53Qnc
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:35 amMr M wrote:
But that’s just it: such a law would be different. It would be the repeal of Section 230, a law which protects our gracious host from being liable for libel — I do so love alliteration! — if someone else posted a libelous comment in the comments section.
Even if such a repeal was repealed, how many private sites would have been crippled?
The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (405d48) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:43 amWhoever ran against Hillary Clinton in 2016, assuming that everything else had stayed the same. Most likely.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:54 am171. Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:10 am
How many years will it be, or maybe how late amd where somebody would need to be born, for someone to find that quotation plausible?
Even now, it should be about 5%, because 5% or more of people polled will agree to anything.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/23/2021 @ 9:57 amUnion doesn’t have actual authority to make the decision. The hospital does. So the union is free to dishonestly advocate for both positions.
The union can make demands and coerce the hospital to meet them. Besides, juries don’t always respect bright lines.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:01 amEven now, it should be about 5%, because 5% or more of people polled will agree to anything.
10% cannot name the President of the United States.
30% think it’s Trump.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:03 amI assume the members are motivated by the same thing the rest of the public is.
Stupidity and conspiracy theories. I further assume that the union members have a diverse political outlook. Other union members I’ve worked with did. But that was manufacturing not healthcare.
I assume the union leadership is motivated by political considerations within the union.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:03 am… as Abraham Lincoln said, “80% of what you find on the internet is fake.”
A true quote:
“90% of everything is crap.”
(Sturgeon’s Law)
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:05 amWhen I joined the Air Force, in basic training they hit you with a half dozen shots, in the same arm, with a jet injector. It was painful but I’ve never caught any of the diseases I was immunized against.
OTOH, your routine inoculations weren’t quickly ‘cooked up’ on a Mess Hall stove the month before, were they.
DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:09 amSuch as?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:28 amThey have members who are dumb and don’t want to get vaccinated. The union leadership needs to back them against the hospital or in the next election those members will find someone else to vote for. Not saying this is a huge issue within the union. But right or wrong members want the union to be on their side.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:32 amIs this actually not clear or are you attempting some sort of Socratic approach?
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:33 amI believe that you are avoiding being specific about the “political considerations.” And by specific I am curious about whether the pressure is from the left wing or the right wing of SEIU. Do you believe that it is the right wing members that SEIU is catering to?
BuDuh (7bca93) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:38 amWithin the Unions I’ve worked with the politics is all very local. Culture war stuff and national politics aren’t what I’ve seen as big drivers. So I don’t think the union leaders are acting based on National politics. I think it’s about not pissing off members and creating hard feelings that their political rivals in the union can capitalize on.
Hopefully that’s more clear. If not, ask away. I don’t mind answering good faith questions.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:45 amI agree that it isn’t a national influence. The local influence if heavily Democrats and the leadership is heavily Democrats. Are you contending that this union is held hostage by non Democrat forces? Or do the Democrats have an incredible problem with vaccine misinformation that has nothing to do with Tucker and Fox?
BuDuh (829305) — 7/23/2021 @ 10:57 amWhat I see is a union standing up for their members when some of those members want something stupid.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 11:02 amThat’s about it.
What I see is someone not wanting to admit that this is a liberal problem.
BuDuh (829305) — 7/23/2021 @ 11:11 amIt would not surprise me if they were doing this on behalf of a very small percentage or number of members.
I once saw a Local go to war for something that mattered for 1 person. But it was clearly a union/management fight so dispite the details the union leadership was all in. “I fight for you” is a very common campaign message in union elections. But my background is manufacturing not healthcare so it might be different.
Regardless, this is cowardly and harmful to the public and the union leaders should be ashamed.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 11:22 amSo many other excuses to be found…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/23/2021 @ 11:22 amBuduh, with the union? Totally could be. Lots of stupidity and conspiracy theories on the left.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 11:23 amBuduh, I’d argue that because a healthcare union likely has credibility with the public on healthcare matters what the union is doing here is especially damaging in a way that say; fighting to get a drunk their job back.
Union leaders need to tell their members to stop eating urinal cakes.
Time123 (4258aa) — 7/23/2021 @ 11:33 amhttps://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/17584/peter-daszak-coronavirus
By Peter Schweizer, who wrote a number of anti-Clinton corruption books.
Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/23/2021 @ 1:10 pm