Patterico's Pontifications

7/8/2021

Survey Says…What???!!!

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:09 pm



[guest post by Dana]

I realize that this is a small sampling of voters, but still…

2024

That Candace Owens beats out Mitt Romney, Liz Cheney, Nikki Haley, and even Ted Cruz is…really mind-boggling.

Here are few more items to consider:

poll2

poll

The demographics of survey-takers can be found at the link above.

SMDH.

–Dana

99 Responses to “Survey Says…What???!!!”

  1. Oh, hi.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. Are you surprised? President Trump got over 70 million votes.

    I know, I know, most of the people who comment on this fine site think that Mr Trump is evil evil, evil, but let’s face facts: our country is a lot worse off with Joe Biden in the White House.

    Yesterday, President Biden threatened to send the Impfstoffabteilung door-to-door, preaching the vaccine. We just don’t know yet if his minions are going to knock on every door, or whether, in the name of efficiency, they will be armed with vaccination records.

    And now we have Xavier Becerra saying, “The federal government has spent trillions of dollars to keep Americans alive during this pandemic. So it is absolutely the government’s business” to know if you’ve been vaccinated. Wir müssen Ihre Dokumente sehen!

    And here I thought it was the evil reich-wing Donald Trump who was the fascist!

    We’ve got a government which wants to force your Los Angeles freeways full of electric cars to run out of juice in your traffic jams, to force cities to change zoning laws to push apartment buildings into what are now single-family home neighborhoods, thinks that Lola by the Kinks is actually great social policy, and a government weaponizing race, and you’re surprised that a whole lot of people think that things were a lot better under President Trump?

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  3. Trump people. Top to bottom. The survey people. Given that the only contest right now is keeping Trump relevant, this “survey” is worth less than Melania going up the steps of Air Force One.

    nk (1d9030)

  4. I know,other Dana! Green shirts, really? Time to get a bigger dog, a barking dog, a territorial dog. Or maybe a bear like Icebear.

    felipe (484255)

  5. felipe wrote:

    Green shirts, really?

    It has been with some amusement that I have referred to the “Squad” of idiotic congresswomen as the “Squadristi,” singular being squadrista, members of the Squadrismo, or Benito Mussolini’s ‘black shirts.’

    The libertarian, but not Libertarian, Dana (78a597)

  6. Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  7. I know, I know, most of the people who comment on this fine site think that Mr Trump is evil evil, evil, but let’s face facts: our country is a lot worse off with Joe Biden in the White House.

    Damn straight. Give the Biden Junta enough time and much of the country will be as wonderful and joyful as Chicago.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  8. It’s a small sample size and McLaughlin is a C/D pollster. Not good.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  9. That Candace Owens beats out Mitt Romney, Liz Cheney, Nikki Haley, and even Ted Cruz is…really mind-boggling.

    Think of them as battleships at anchor… and this is intercepted intel of a map of Oahu.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  10. Are you surprised? President Trump got over 70 million votes.

    Other choices might have got more, particularly if they had policy agreement with Trump but lacked the repulsiveness. It is not that Trump is evil — many politicians are evil — it’s that he is repulsive. Not a man you would let watch your children. Not a man whose word you’d trust. Not a man you would lend money to. Not a man you would hire to represent you or your business.

    Trump S.U.C.K.S. But evil has little to do with it. Amoral chaotic.

    Most of the Right who did not vote for Trump objected to the man, not the issues. Trump is a boat-anchor outside R+30.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  11. Trump LOST. To BIDEN.

    Punchline, 2024 election to Republicans: “You didn’t come here to hunt, did you.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  12. AllahPundit mentioned that McLaughlin was Trump’s pollster in 2020.

    Paul Montagu (5de684)

  13. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 7/8/2021 @ 8:17 pm

    Not a man you would let watch your children. Not a man whose word you’d trust. Not a man you would lend money to. Not a man you would hire to represent you or your business.

    There’s someone on that list that doesn’t check those boxes? Maybe that Undecided person. I don’t know them and I hate to judge without more info.

    I know, he’s an especially egregious example in another category entirely and what not and so forth.

    frosty (f27e97)

  14. https://mclaughlinonline.com/about-mclaughlin-associates/

    Since 2016. Click the link for more. My guess is that they “resampled” the people and the places who had shown the same support for Trump in their past polls, and added a little non/bi/cis-partisan window dressing.

    nk (1d9030)

  15. Not a man you would let watch your children. Not a man whose word you’d trust. Not a man you would lend money to. Not a man you would hire to represent you or your business.

    Reaganomics; Reaganoptics; Reaganaurics.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  16. ‘Most of the Right who did not vote for Trump objected to the man, not the issues.’

    Here’s the deal:

    “Stupid is as stupid does.” – Forrest Gump [Tom Hanks]’Forrest Gump’ 1994

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  17. Hi, Dana. It’s wonderful to talk with you again. I’ve had some issues to deal with over the last month, and I’m still trying to figure out how to work with this new computer I had set up. But that’s all beside the point and not worth talking about.

    You must know that I love you. I admire you as a woman and appreciate your writing. If we should ever meet in person, perhaps we could fall in love, but I don’t think we would. I am beneath you and not worthy. That said, let’s get on to the finer points of the discussion.

    This poll is of self-identified Republicans. Am I right? They make up about 25% of the electorate. Self-identified Democrats make up about 26% of the electorate. Meaning that the vast majority of voters do not identify with either party. Call us Independents or Libertarains, call us whaterever you want. We vote our minds.

    We voted againgst Trump. I saw him for what he was from the begining–a total fraud. But yet these Republicans continue to believe the lie? They’re all fools. I won’t be a part of them.

    Gawain's Ghost (ef1cde)

  18. No comment

    felipe (484255)

  19. I have been telling you for years the republican party is now the party of populism and trump. Conservative neo-cons and economic libertarian or as its called reaganism is a small minority of the party. They have wealth and their media which has to be subsidized ;but not republican populist voters in the south and midwest. Almost daily we see stories here by never trumpers that trump is finished when in fact never trumpers are the ones who are finished.

    asset (17d4c9)

  20. @11 trump only technically lost to biden. Trump was actually defeated by republican legislatures passing laws to try and keep the libertarian party off the ballot. (they failed) But! they were sufficiently difficult so the democratic party could keep the green party off of the ballot in swing states like az. ga. and wi. So voters who didn’t like biden ;but wouldn’t vote for trump could not vote green party. I have used this example before 2016 trump wins wisconsin by 22,000 votes with green party jill stein getting 36,000 votes. In 2020 trump loses wisconsin by 20,000 votes with green party candidate kicked off ballot by democrat party.

    asset (17d4c9)

  21. I saw him for what he was from the begining–a total fraud. But yet these Republicans continue to believe the lie? They’re all fools. I won’t be a part of them.

    Welcome to 1964:

    “…Back to silver standards and solid Goldwater…” – ‘Barry’s Boys’ Chad Mitchell Trio, 1964

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  22. You people really think your better than me, because you voted for basement joe? or didn’t vote for Trump?
    pathetic elitist snobs.

    mg (8cbc69)

  23. Asser is 100% right in 19. The GOP is the party of Trump. The party of racial grievance, conspiracy theories, and lawlessness. Those of us you used to vote GOP can stay home or go elsewhere.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  24. Sorry, I meant “asset” but typed it wrong.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  25. That said, I think the rankings below Trump are more a measure of name recognition among the respondents.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  26. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/9/2021 @ 4:52 am

    The party of racial grievance, conspiracy theories, and lawlessness. Those of us you used to vote GOP can stay home or go elsewhere.

    You can vote D and join the other party of racial grievance, conspiracy theories, lawlessness, senility, and the nervous laugh of the incompetent.

    You’re drifting off the narrative though. The R’s aren’t about racial grievances. They’re supposed to be straight up racist. They also aren’t about lawlessness. They’re supposed to be the fascist.

    frosty (f27e97)

  27. mg (8cbc69) — 7/9/2021 @ 2:56 am

    It seems like that the long and short of it. Most of the complaints about Trump at the end of the day are really about Trump voters. Every so often someone will throw in a comment about voting on issues but it’s usually followed by a comment that there were other choices who would have carried those issues better.

    There’s a lot of truth to the meme that it was never about Trump. That it’s about you.

    frosty (f27e97)

  28. Frosty, I call it like I see it.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  29. Frosty, Is 28 that directed at me? I’ve been pretty clear what I thought about his actions with Ukraine, the election conspiracy, his general incompetence, dishonestly and weak leadership. Those things are all about Trump and not his voters.

    I cant speak for how common my POV is among people who didn’t vote for trump. But I’m at least 1 example the disproves your point.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  30. That said, I think the rankings below Trump are more a measure of name recognition among the respondents.

    I think they’re that Trump campaign staff have no compunction about lying to anyone and everyone about anything and everything. Lewandowski said that flat out in a Congressional hearing and who can forget Kellyanne’s alternative facts? Preselected sample = fake poll = lie = Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  31. NK, I’m assuming that since Dana posted this it’s at least somewhat scientific….

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  32. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/9/2021 @ 5:25 am

    I wasn’t intending it to target you and I don’t think one example undermines the point. I’m also expecting that most people this is aimed at would disagree for some reason based on the nature of the criticism.

    Do you think I’m totally off base? I won’t argue the point. Just watch various comments you see here or in the media and roll them around in your head. Don’t focus so much on the truth of the matter asserted but what’s actually being asserted and the implications.

    frosty (f27e97)

  33. 18… thanks for the Ba Ba Batusi, felipe!

    22. It looks like you’ve boiled it down to its essence, mg. Brush away the mincing, the concern trolling, virtue signaling, pooftery, etc. and one can see the base model Democrat drone.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  34. Totally off base? No not at all. I’ve been harping on Tribalism for a long time. It’s not unique to the right by any stretch of the imagination. Rich lowery defined Trump as the last chance his supporters had to flip the bird at the ‘cultural elite that look down on them.” I know there were people that voted from a similar logic but pointed the other way. Heck, when I shared that article with a good friend who LOVES Trump he felt it described all politics and that I was just lying to myself if i thought I had other motivations.

    I probably got touchy because it came right after my comment and you’d made the ‘losing the narrative dig’

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  35. MG, I don’t think I’m better then you. I think you’re wrong a lot, but I don’t feel morally superior to you. I don’t think you’re wrong so often or in such a way that I think you’re dumb or dishonest. I think you’re smart and well educated.

    Nor do i think that you’re a bad person overall. I have no idea who you are or what you’re about and you’ve never said anything here that made me think “WOW, only a bad person would say something like that.”

    FWIW

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  36. The last time a Republican won the popular vote for the presidency, 2004, George W. Bush won because he received 93 percent of the Republican votes, while John Kerry won only 89 percent of the Democrats.

    (The number of Republican identifiers had grown during Bush’s first term and so the two parties each had 37 percent of the voters. Kerry and Bush split the independents, almost equally.)

    So, since the proportion of Republicans in the electorate has fallen since Trump took over the party, that 84 percent would be too low for a popular vote victory (and probably an electoral college victory). That’s still true, even if you assume all the “don’t knows” vote for Trump.

    Conclusion: Assuming for the sake of the argument that the poll is telling us something real, if Trump can stay out of jail until the 2024 election, he might be able to win the nomination again, but he is most unlikely to win the general election.

    For what it is worth, British bettors now give Trump about a 25 percent chance of winning the 2024 nomination and about a 10 percent chance of winning the presidency.

    (Although neither is very good, I prefer betting odds to polls this far out from an election. The 2024 Wikipedia presidential election article does have some very early polls, if you are curious.)

    Jim Miller (edcec1)

  37. You people really think your better than me,

    We are. We always have been.

    because you voted for basement joe? or didn’t vote for Trump?

    Don’t flatter yourself. We were better than you when Andrew Jackson gave you the vote, Indians to hate, and black people to look down on. That was before Trump, BTW, ask somebody to look it up for you.

    pathetic elitist snobs.

    Whiny losers!

    nk (1d9030)

  38. ‘The party of racial grievance, conspiracy theories, and lawlessness.’

    ROFLMAOPIP

    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” – Barry Goldwater, 1964

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  39. NK, that was extremely rude and insulting. You owe MG an apology.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  40. Sports version of the Trump dichotomy:

    Like how the White Sox play -especially since they’re in 1st, but I cant stand White Sox fans.

    urbanleftbehind (d1f1fe)

  41. Has to be done sometimes, Tine123. But the nk rant inadvertently absolves the Ellis Island cohort.

    urbanleftbehind (d1f1fe)

  42. NK, that was extremely rude and insulting. You owe MG an apology.

    Why? For going out of my way to affirm mg’s belief as well as the most basic tenet of the Trumpmuffin Creed? That they’re the “us”, and the “them” are the elitist snobs who look down on them?

    Honestly, I thought your response to mg at 37 was patronizing and condescending. mg is not a child, he is a grandfather in fact, and he should be talked to man-to-man and not soothed like a child.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. urbanleftbehind (d1f1fe) — 7/9/2021 @ 7:47 am

    absolves the Ellis Island cohort

    Is there a table or function for how absolved someone is based on mixed heritage? Asking for a French (pre-revolution)-German (post-civil war pre-WWII)-Irish (pre-civil war and post-civil war)-Native (pre-Columbian?)-Scottish (pre-civil war) American (sorted alphabetically until we determine the sort order by priority) friend.

    frosty (f27e97)

  44. I didn’t mean it to be either of those things. It was 100% sincere.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  45. “You people really think your better than me, because you … didn’t vote for Trump?”

    I was going to leave this as the 3am rant that it was intended….but this does show a pretty telling insecurity…that in part explains Trump’s continued GOP support. Some still think that their read on Trump was correct and that he just needs one more shot….to Make America Great Again. It doesn’t look good for us who think differently. But I’m sleeping great…..and never give a second thought to comments suggesting support for traditional GOP candidates makes me a loser…or dead ender. Right now it just makes me have to be patient….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  46. persiflage noun
    per·​si·​flage | \ ˈpər-si-ˌfläzh , ˈper- \
    : frivolous bantering talk : light raillery

    nk (1d9030)

  47. You people really think your better than me,…
    pathetic elitist snobs.

    I thought Trump-worshipers embraced “elitist” disdain as a badge of honor — and sometimes go out of their way to court disdain.

    There are various reasons why it’s ridiculous to call me an “elitist snob.” Many ardent Trump apologists are objectively more elite than I am. Being “elite” isn’t a prerequisite for having moral judgment or viewing things rationally.

    It isn’t elitist to recognize the absurdity of regarding Donald Trump as a super-patriot with an exceedingly great love of America, a pure-hearted compassion for the little guy, and a singular zeal to “drain the swamp” and restore honest government. It isn’t elitist to recognize how noxious it is to define political virtue as unconditional loyalty to a profoundly selfish man, pretending that it’s all about policy but then demonstrating in action that it really isn’t.

    It certainly isn’t elitist to recognize the awfulness of Trump’s preemptive refusal to accept an election loss as legitimate, his efforts to overturn the election and get himself reinstalled, and his ongoing attacks on the institutions of the American democratic republic because they would not bow down to him.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  48. but this does show a pretty telling insecurity…

    That’s what I thought, too.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  49. never give a second thought to comments suggesting support for traditional GOP candidates makes me a loser…

    Over the past few years I’ve learned that some of the people I used to think of as squishes turned out to be more stalwart in maintaining their positions than many people I had regarded as rock-ribbed, but who changed their stance quite dramatically — for whatever reason.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  50. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/9/2021 @ 6:36 am

    I’d disagree with your friend and Lowery. It’s not about flipping the bird. This is just an example of gaslighting or an attempt to dismiss some real underlying issues.

    Getting rid of Trump won’t make those issues go away. The people attacking Trump need him in play as a proxy for attacks on those issues and the people concerned about them. If he stepped aside and someone “less offensive” took up the same underlying issues they would immediately be branded The Next Trump and would be seen as just as offensive.

    My guess is the reason for these wonky poll numbers above is directly related to people’s belief in who will actually focus on things those voters care about. For example, Cruz, who was my favorite in 2016, has shown a tolerance for enhanced flexibility. Romney was a problem for me before Trump came along and I don’t think Cheney will address any of the issues I care about. Some of those on the list are just D’s in districts where running R was the only way for them to get ahead.

    frosty (f27e97)

  51. When did we all decide to self-identify? It’s like MG placed a drop of Dawn in a sink of greasy water.

    felipe (484255)

  52. I have no pretensions that I am an elite. But I am most definitely an elitist. I want to be governed by someone who is better than I am. I want someone better than I am to occupy the lord’s castle (the White House for those in Rio Linda). “Who are you to give me orders?” Like that.

    Nietzsche considered democracy “a throne resting on mud”. I don’t want mud sitting on the throne too.

    nk (1d9030)

  53. Radegunda (33a224) — 7/9/2021 @ 8:25 am

    Wow! That’s a very impressive strawman you’ve created there. Did you need to order in a load or were you able to find all of that laying around the yard?

    frosty (f27e97)

  54. Good morning, Colonel. It was either the Batusi or William Shatner performing Rocketman.

    felipe (484255)

  55. Frosty, Trump had three main areas of policy difference
    1. Culture war stuff.
    2. Economic popularism.
    3. Alt-Right/White Nationalism.

    Which set of issues are you talking about? I assume based on previous comments it’s 1, but could be 2 and want to confirm.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  56. felipe (484255) — 7/9/2021 @ 8:35 am

    There’s no harm in identifying. Come on out of the closet and be your true self. We can always just transition to a different identity later.

    frosty (f27e97)

  57. Whatever…just no pronouns!!!!

    urbanleftbehind (d1f1fe)

  58. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/9/2021 @ 8:39 am

    From that list, I’m guessing you’re putting something like tax-payer-funded abortion into “Culture war stuff”, something like the destruction of the middle class into “Economic popularism”, and unrestricted illegal immigration would be “White Nationalism”. Am I guessing right?

    But you don’t think that’s gaslighting and you don’t think attacks on Trump are just ways to frame the underlying issues?

    BTW, so many questions; What is

    Trump had three main areas of policy difference

    supposed to mean? Policy differences with who?

    Who, other than NeverTrump, do you think would accept any part of that premise? How do you square that with

    Those things are all about Trump and not his voters.

    because all of those things are policies, i.e. things people voted for. How is your claim of voting for “White Nationalism” not about his voters?

    frosty (f27e97)

  59. A few anonymous Biden art buyers on site?

    mg (8cbc69)

  60. That Candace Owens beats out Mitt Romney, Liz Cheney, Nikki Haley, and even Ted Cruz is…really mind-boggling.

    Who is Candace Owens?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Owens

    An African American Trump supporter and opponent of Black Lives Matter, who originally was anti-conservative and anti-Trump and anti-Republican but later switched sides because she was doxxed after she launched SocialAutopsy.com with the intention of identifying and exposing bullies on the Internet. She blamed that on Gamergate progressives. Whatever they were against, she became for. Whatever they were for, she became against. She went to work for TurningPoint USA and registered Republican after the Brett Kavanaugh hearings.

    She promised to run for Governor or Senator in 2020 against an incumbent Democrat (without apparently specifying a state) but she didn’t and now she says

    She’s not well informed or careful about the truth.

    From rthe Wikipedia article aout her:

    In June 2019, Owens said that African Americans had it better in the first 100 years after the abolition of slavery than they have since[71][72][73] and that socialism was at fault.

    This garbles a point that has been made by some black conservatives: In the 25 years or so before the War on Poverty, the economic level of American blacks relative to whites was improving and it stopped after the Great Society programs were passed.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  61. “some of the people I used to think of as squishes turned out to be more stalwart”

    Certainly Romney on one end….though in the end, he had very little effective pull. He was never able to create a viable opposition that could in turn launch an opposition candidacy. But that was probably less about Romney personally and more about the general dysfunction of the GOP and its enabling right-wing media.

    Cruz has fallen on the other side for me. What he did to basic honesty following the election will be nearly impossible for me to forget. It may position him well for 2024, especially if Trump drops out and doesn’t push one if his sons….but his proximity to anarchy during 1/6 pretty much disqualifies him for me. Right now, Haley probably has my support but she still needs to convince me that she has a solid message. Can’t believe Kasich or Romney run again….neither seem to be well positioned with the party of Trump…..even if Trump bails. If there is one principle that Trumpism espouses, it is virulent vengeance.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  62. Now she says (Feb 2021 on Twitter) that she is considering a run for president. Thus, her inclusion in this poll.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  63. Wow! That’s a very impressive strawman you’ve created there.

    Where’s the strawman? I’ve summarized the bizarre Trump-reverence that I’ve seen expressed over and over since 2015:

    * the weird belief that he’s a uniquely valiant warrior against corruption, and that every official and institution that doesn’t bow to him is ipso facto corrupt

    * the strange idea that he unabashedly, unapologetically “loves America” — even though calls the country a “laughingstock” when he’s not in charge, claims to be the only person who can fix its problems (which are numerous when he’s not in charge), trashes many of its institutions as corrupt and a disgrace, and gives more credit to Vladimir Putin than to U.S. intelligence agencies

    * the ridiculous notion that he is distinguished by “compassion” (which has actually been claimed, unironically) and that he truly cares about “ordinary Americans” — as against relishing their adoration.

    If you haven’t noticed any of that among the Trump-faithful, and haven’t noticed how most of the GOP has bought into his election denialism and his efforts to overturn the people’s will, and haven’t noticed the many signs that being considered a Republican in good standing is now conditional upon expressing love of Donald Trump, then you must be holed up in a dark, silent place without internet.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  64. “some of the people I used to think of as squishes turned out to be more stalwart”

    I’m actually thinking about commentators and thought-leaders rather than politicians. I’m giving new ears to people I used to distrust somewhat, and have tuned out some I used to trust.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  65. Brush away the mincing, the concern trolling, virtue signaling, pooftery, etc. and one can see the shysters…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  66. I heard on the radio in once case attributed to the New York Post that the New York City Board of Elections had referred a candidate’s campaign to the New York State Attorney General for ballot harvesting and vote fraud (the two are detectable mostly only if they go together and I don’t know if the first alone is illegal in New York State.)

    It involved Marko Kepi, a candidate for City Council in the 50th district in Staten Island (the middle district) This district is currently represented by a term limited Republican. He’s still losing, but it is close.

    I could not find anything about it in the New York Post, or any other newspaper, but I did find something. It involved signature mismatches on absentee ballots, with Kepi complaining that too many had been found not to match. So it seems the Board of Elections escalated it.

    https://www.silive.com/politics/2021/07/accusations-still-fly-in-mid-island-city-council-race-as-wait-for-primary-election-results-continues.html

    Meanwhile there are insults flying in the Queens Borough president’s race. The incumbent, a black Democrat accuses Elizabeth Crowley (a cousin of former U.S. Congressman Joseph Crowley who was also the Democratic party chair, who was defeated by AOC in 2018) of racism and she accuses him of sexism. And what Donovan J. Richards Jr said is really terrible. Elizabeth Crowley thinks she can stll win when lall the votes are counted.

    Meanwhile, Eric Adams has applied a thought from Esther 4:14 to himself:

    https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt3304.htm

    כִּי אִם-הַחֲרֵשׁ תַּחֲרִישִׁי, בָּעֵת הַזֹּאת–רֶוַח וְהַצָּלָה יַעֲמוֹד לַיְּהוּדִים מִמָּקוֹם אַחֵר, וְאַתְּ וּבֵית-אָבִיךְ תֹּאבֵדוּ; וּמִי יוֹדֵעַ–אִם-לְעֵת כָּזֹאת, הִגַּעַתְּ לַמַּלְכוּת. 14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then will relief and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place, but thou and thy father’s house will perish; and who knoweth whether thou art not come to royal estate for such a time as this?’

    In other words, he’s being elected to save New York. Most everyone else would ignore crime in black areas. It sounds like he will give strong pushback to the defund the police people.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  67. Radegunda (33a224) — 7/9/2021 @ 9:32 am

    Sounds like you had it lying around. Be careful with open flames.

    frosty (f27e97)

  68. one can see the shysters…

    Names?

    Radegunda (33a224)

  69. Radegunda (33a224) — 7/9/2021 @ 9:32 am

    and gives more credit to Vladimir Putin than to U.S. intelligence agencies

    Vladimir Putin gives more credit to Joe Biden than most conservative talk radio show hosts do:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/17/politics/putin-biden-praise-professional/index.html

    “Mr. Biden is a professional, and you need to be very careful when working with him so as not to miss something,” Putin said during a videoconference meeting with graduates from Russia’s Graduate School of Public Administration. “He himself does not miss a thing, I assure you, and this was absolutely clear to me.”

    “Let me say it again: he is focused, he knows what he wants to achieve and does it very skilfully, and you can instantly sense it,” the Russian President added.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  70. “I’m giving new ears to people I used to distrust somewhat”

    I’m curious who this might be. I have trouble watching most cable news networks….I do surf over to MSNBC and FNC occasionally to take the temperature on the rhetoric….it’s almost like two different countries. The good news is that I do go out for a lot more runs these days….

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  71. Sounds like you had it lying around.

    Ah, more insults against my good faith.
    If one is paying attention to the news, it’s very difficult NOT to see all that repeated over and over and over.
    A few months ago, some people thought the grip of Trump-worship on the GOP would fade, but instead we keep seeing more and more indications that the nonnegotiable requirement for being accepted as a Republican — and a “real American” — is to support Trump unconditionally and endorse his “rigged election” fantasies and see the 1/6 insurrectionists as victims of corrupt institutions.

    A major political party has refashioned itself as a cult of personality. People who have joined a cult never think it’s a cult. They believe that everyone who doesn’t revere their hero is evil.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  72. Frosty, based on your response I did a poor job communicating. Let me try again

    Frosty, Trump had three main areas of policy differences from the previous GOP leaders such as Cruz and Romney.
    1. Culture war stuff, which was far more about communications then policy. Trump leaned into things like ‘the war on Christmas’ and transpeople in the military far more forcefully, but on policy areas such as abortion wasn’t substantially different from traditional GOP positions.
    2. Economic popularism. Trump’s view of trade and protectionism was a departure from previous GOP policy and more closely aligned with the policy views of Sen Warren then Sen Romney in many areas. Some of his anti-immigration policies differed from previous GOP positions here. While Trump talked a good game about the damage done to our manufacturing sector he wasn’t very effective at implementing policies that would have differed from any other. GOP president.
    3. Alt-Right/White Nationalism. They loved him and he loved them for loving him. He was a huge birther and rhetorically supported many of the same things they did. I’d put much of his immigration rhetoric here and contrast it with the ways in which W tried to show respect and compassion for Hispanics.

    Which set of issues are you talking about when you say that whoever comes after Trump will still have to address them?

    If this framing is too flawed to be useful just lay out what issues you think a different GOP leader would have to address.

    Again, this is contrasting Trump with another GOP leader. Not Trump with a Dem.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  73. I’m curious who this might be.

    People along the lines of Mona Charen, Linda Chavez, Peter Wehner — the longtime conservatives who are now trashed as Deep State hacks by the Trumpist intellectuals. When people aren’t telling me to ignore what my own eyes and ears reveal to me, and aren’t saying that someone is a much better person than his public behavior routinely indicates, and aren’t saying that all the video & audio evidence from 1/6 and surrounding it is a sham, I’m more likely to trust their judgment on other subjects.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  74. Please to advise Democrats, your old ally counsels that patience is its own reward…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlEQ-3q2EmY

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  75. The one thing the poll didn’t ask was Trump’s approval (it did ask that of various Democrats). I assume they didn’t ask because they assumed it was a given. But based on the polling I have posted in the past, it is very high. It is Trump’s party.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  76. It is Trump’s party.

    That’s why I’m proud not to be in that party anymore.
    When was the last time the GOP was said to be the party of one particular person? Reagan of course was long held to represent the ideological heart of the party, but was there ever such an intense personal loyalty to him at the expense of every other value? Would we have seen the party attacking Republicans who had supported Reagan pretty consistently on policy but then criticized a particular set of actions that they (and most people outside the party) regarded as quite beyond the pale?

    In my politically aware years, I have never seen the GOP so deeply invested in personal allegiance to anyone — and certainly not to someone of such abysmal character.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  77. @79 remind me who started #neverreagan

    who had the brilliant idea of starting a movement based on reagan hate?

    it’s either trump’s party or trump haters’ party, and your sort of worship lost out

    JF (e1156d)

  78. People along the lines of Mona Charen, Linda Chavez, Peter Wehner — the longtime conservatives who are now trashed as Deep State hacks by the Trumpist intellectuals.

    Conservative whine; bitter dregs. They’re on the outs and, like JonahG and Frenchie Davide… irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  79. your sort of worship lost out

    Who is it that I worship?

    NeverTrump was started by people who recognized Donald Trump as a sociopath who has always been profoundly self-centered and congenitally dishonest, and who was likely to put self-interest first. NeverTrumpers are astonished by the reverence and abject fealty shown to someone so unworthy of it.

    Reagan certainly had skeptics and critics in the GOP. There wasn’t a #neverreagan because there wasn’t any Twitter then. And if there wasn’t a recognizable Never Reagan contingent, that’s probably because Reagan wasn’t a sociopath who was ignorant of the Constitution and American history.

    But thanks for confirming that you understand the GOP now to be defined entirely by love of Donald Trump and that you think it should be.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  80. Conservative whine; bitter dregs.

    Apparently you don’t read or listen to them, as I do, because there is nothing whiney or bitter about them. They sound like happy people, at peace with themselves and the stands they have taken. They apparently care about their integrity more than whether they are “on the outs.” Which is clearly very hard for some people to understand — especially people who regard Donald Trump, who cares about nothing so much as getting attention and hero-worship, as a paragon of patriotic virtue. And people who believe that morality is transient.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  81. Apparently you don’t read or listen to them, as I do, because there is nothing whiney or bitter about them.

    Except there is.

    And it is… glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  82. @82 it was mockery, not self mockery

    here’s more:
    2016 wasn’t a binary choice, but the 2024 republican nomination apparently is

    JF (e1156d)

  83. Radegunda (33a224) — 7/9/2021 @ 10:04 am

    Ah, more insults against my good faith.

    That wasn’t an insult against your good faith.

    frosty (f27e97)

  84. Except there is.
    And it is… glorious.

    Examples?

    Radegunda (33a224)

  85. That wasn’t an insult against your good faith.

    I will assume you mean that sincerely, and take it in that spirit.

    Radegunda (33a224)

  86. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/9/2021 @ 10:05 am

    policy areas such as abortion wasn’t substantially different from traditional GOP positions

    Traditional GOP positions on abortion are to claim a pro-life position personally but not do much to actually implement any pro-life changes in long-term policy. Social conservatives have picked up on this game and that’s why you don’t see them just willing to vote for any given R. Future leaders of the GOP will need to decide whether they’re going to return to saying they are against it personally but aren’t willing to do anything politically.

    While Trump talked a good game about the damage done to our manufacturing sector he wasn’t very effective at implementing policies that would have differed from any other. GOP president.

    Trump implemented tariffs on China that have been retained by Biden even though these have been criticized on both sides originally. This is another area where the traditional GOP position is to acknowledge the issue to the group impacted by the problem but not actually do anything about it. Trump also talked a good game about removing regulations, etc. We can debate the effectiveness of that but future GOP leaders will need to decide whether they’re going to return to lying to what’s left of the middle class to chase the chamber of commerce.

    I’d put much of his immigration rhetoric here and contrast it with the ways in which W tried to show respect and compassion for Hispanics.

    This is an interesting choice. Bush tried to frame himself as a compassionate conservative. Neither of these was true. So, once again it’s a choice of rhetoric or stopping illegal immigration. The traditional GOP position has been to blind-eye this hoping that later amnesty deals will bring some of those voters into the GOP.

    The traditional GOPe has been fundamentally dishonest. They’ve been D-lite while trying to keep control of the party by making promises to the middle class and social conservative factions. I think that game is up.

    At the same time any future GOP leader that tries to do anything about abortion, the ongoing trade war with China, illegal immigration, etc. will immediately be flagged with everything Trump was flagged with. I personally don’t see many of the names on that list doing anything other than returning to traditional GOP tactics of saying whatever gets them elected and then not actually doing anything to improve the situation. Everyone in that boat won’t get enough votes to beat D’s and because the game is up the old tactic of vote for us or get D’s won’t work.

    frosty (f27e97)

  87. @89 Abortion, gun control and gay marriage was adopted by republican party as nixon’s southern strategy to get southern populist democrats to vote republican. The wealthy and their hirelings are economic libertarians so they had to adopt god ,guns and gays to get the ignorant southern white trash democrat populists to vote republican. If they needed an abortion for their girl friend they could drive to ny like former president bush did.

    asset (3c6fee)

  88. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/9/2021 @ 8:39 am

    Frosty, Trump had three main areas of policy difference
    1. Culture war stuff.
    2. Economic popularism.
    3. Alt-Right/White Nationalism.

    None of these. His issue was immigration, which had been argued for 40 years on talk radio, and on which he took a position that nobody would follow, yet neither would they dispute it, except trivially [i.e. Mexico is not going to pay for the wall – that’s a trivial objection.]

    Trump did everything to slow down immigration, legal and illegal. His position on trade was also economic ignoramus but not so harmful to human beings.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  89. frosty (f27e97) — 7/9/2021 @ 8:48 am

    urbanleftbehind (d1f1fe) — 7/9/2021 @ 8:51 am

    Ha! Yer killin’ me!

    felipe (484255)

  90. Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/9/2021 @ 9:53 am

    I see the Onion has some stiff competition!

    felipe (484255)

  91. Frosty, It’s possible that I’m just not well informed, but I don’t think Trump took any actions on abortion that were out step with mainstream GOP policy and action. What did he do that you think say, Jeb or Romney would not have?

    I agree that his trade policy with China was different, as were some of his immigrations changes. Were those the issues you were referencing?

    Btw, if you really wanted a populist economic policy Warren was the candidate for you. But with her you lose all of the culture war and alt right stuff. Biden is populist light and that’s part of how he’s going to make us all poorer in the long run, if less so then Warren. I think thats why they’re not doing more about inflation. Inflation driving wages up is a win for populists if it can out pass cost of living. But I digress.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  92. What ever happened to WI’s ex-governor Scott Walker?

    pouncer (6c33cf)

  93. He founded Walker Group, a political consulting firm.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  94. Time123 (9f42ee) — 7/9/2021 @ 2:20 pm

    According to PP

    During its time in power, the administration tried to shut down Planned Parenthood in every way possible — in presidential budgets, health care reform bills, tax reform legislation, and federal resolutions and regulations, as well as in nominating anti-Planned Parenthood judges and appointing anti-Planned Parenthood officials.

    How is that different from Jeb or Mitt? I think I answered this one. They are “traditional” GOP. That means they’re personally against it but won’t actually do anything to stop it. I’d expect both of those two to move to the pro-choice “I don’t like it but the law is the law and people have a right to make the choice” position as POTUS.

    Are you serious with the comparison to Warren? Maybe on the desired outcome in a few specific cases but their methods and reasoning are not the same. Warren is a good pick if you want to move closer towards an EU style semi-fascists system.

    Were those the issues you were referencing

    You’ve seen me comment about China before right? I don’t think I’ve been opaque in saying China is a whole bag of issues.

    I think there’s also a misunderstanding here. There are two different issues in play, will a politician actually try to do something about an issue and do I agree with what they’ll do. My point is about the former. It isn’t a function of whether the policy is different and I’m not trying to make an argument for Trump policies. I’m saying there’s no point in considering “traditional” GOP politicians because they aren’t credible. I have no faith that they’ll do anything positive. They are part of the problem. So, them telling me they’re against abortion or Chinese slave labor is falling on deaf ears. I don’t always agree with a Trump policy but he didn’t tell voters he was going to do something about immigration and then push amnesty.

    If Trump means an end to the “traditional” GOP policy of claiming policy positions to get a vote and then flipping then I’m for that. I don’t have a lot of hope but at least that’s a step in a better direction.

    frosty (f27e97)

  95. Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c) — 7/9/2021 @ 9:53 am [should be #72 if nothing is in someone’s moderation]

    93. felipe (484255) — 7/9/2021 @ 2:19 pm

    I see the Onion has some stiff competition!

    Truth is stranger than fiction, as they say. Vladimir Putin really said that.

    Of course, I think he really misread Joe Biden. Joe Biden wasn’t careful enough about his ed lines. He gave Putin 16 types of websites not to attack. He didn’t include a software vendor who supplied updates to all sorts of systems. They didn’t anticipate that even though it had already happened once.

    So now the U.S. government is busy figuring out just what to do.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  96. #55
    “I want to be governed by someone who is better than I am.”
    And to think 80M people thought Joe Biden/Kamala Harris was just the ticket

    I’d rather have Trumps family watch my kids than have something similar to when Joe turn Beau’s daughter over to Hunter to look after.
    That went well.

    steveg (ebe7c1)


Powered by WordPress.

Page loaded in: 0.1765 secs.