Patterico's Pontifications

5/11/2021

Q: Should Tomorrow’s Recall Vote On Cheney Be An Open Vote or Remain A Private Vote? (UPDATE)

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:50 am



[guest post by Dana]

As we know, the GOP House vote to recall Rep. Liz Cheney will take place tomorrow. With that, I have been thinking about the protective secret vote that will take place, and wondering what you think about it.

1) Do you believe that tomorrow’s votes should be open and made public? This way, members could see where their colleagues stand on the issue, and more importantly, Americans would know how their representatives voted. Of course, the issue isn’t about Cheney per se. She is a messenger of truth who is being shut down for not shutting up about Trump and his despicable big lie and trashing the Rule of Law. Despite her consistently strong conservative creds and voting record, she has failed to pass the Party’s now-requisite litmus test. But the real heart of the matter is whether the future of the Republican Party lies with Trump or not? That would naturally include his influence over the Party, steering money toward candidates that push his populist MAGA views, signing onto the big lie, and demonstrating loyalty to the former president.

Or:

2) Do you believe that the votes should be secret and not disclosed? This way it protects members who do not approve of Trump’s big lie but find themselves in a bind because they are facing a midterm election and don’t want to risk losing financial backing, or are afraid of getting Cheneyed if they speak up and thus possibly lose their seats. According to Rep. Kinzinger, he knows there are fellow members who just keep their heads down because they don’t want to jeopardize their positions.

Anyway, speaking of Kinzinger, this is the nub of the matter. From Sunday’s Face the Nation:

So Liz Cheney is saying exactly what Kevin McCarthy said the day of the insurrection. She’s just consistently been saying it. And a few weeks later, Kevin McCarthy changed to attacking other people. And so I think what the reality is, is as a party, we have to have an internal look and a full accounting as to what led to January 6th. I mean, right now, it’s basically the- the Titanic. We’re like, you know, in this in the middle of this slow sink, we have a band playing on the deck telling everybody it’s fine. And meanwhile, as I’ve said, you know, Donald Trump’s running around trying to find women’s clothing and get on the first lifeboat. And I think there’s a few of us that are just saying, guys, this is not good, not just for the future of the party, but this is not good for the future of this country. We’re four months after January 6th, an insurrection, something that was unthinkable in this country. And the message from the people that want to get rid of Liz Cheney is to say it’s just time to focus on the future and move on, like this was 10 years ago and we’ve been obsessed about it since. It’s been four months. And we have so many people, including our leadership in the party, that has not admitted that this is what it is,– -which was an insurrection led by the president of the United States, well deserving of a full accounting from Republicans.

Of course, there’s more to this than meets the eye at first glance. There is the long-term outcome:

Here’s something to think about. Play it out. The GOP takes back the House in 2022. Trump runs for the presidency in 2024. Assuming he loses, he will once again claim it was due to fraud, say he won, and pressure Republicans to once again, not certify the results.

With a GOP House majority, how does that go?

Let me know what you think.

UPDATE:

–Dana

101 Responses to “Q: Should Tomorrow’s Recall Vote On Cheney Be An Open Vote or Remain A Private Vote? (UPDATE)”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. It might be the right thing from an appearance standpoint to have the votes tabulated publicly with each member taking responsibility for how he or she voted, but at the same time this is an internal issue dealing with party leadership so I don’t think they owe it to anyone to divulge internal party workings.

    JVW (30a532)

  3. Yes, technically it’s an internal issue, but the future of the Republican Party is essentially being decided tomorrow, and that is anything but an internal issue.

    Dana (fd537d)

  4. Peggy Noonan in the Wall Street Journal Saturday/Sunday May 8/9 2021.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/liz-cheney-confronts-a-house-of-cowards-11620342680

    The Republicans like to call themselves a big tent. Ms. Cheney is in that tent, a woman who isn’t in the boys club and yet has been respected by the boys. If they throw her out she looks like Churchill, and they look like little men with umbrellas. It will make the party look stupid and weak, as if it can’t tolerate dissent. Republicans like to call for diversity of thought on campuses. What about in the Republican Conference? Giving her the boot places Mr. Trump at the center of things, and is a gift to President Biden, taking all the heat off his programs and policies.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  5. A private vote gives more of a chance that she’ll keep her position, or lose by a smaller margin.
    A public vote gives me the chance to see which GOP members are quisling garbage people.

    It’s Trump’s party so I think she’s toast either way. A public vote is probably best so we can see which republicans don’t value our country or the laws it’s based on.

    Time123 (36651d)

  6. You cannot bully a secret vote. I wonder if Congress would work better with all secret votes.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  7. It’s Trump’s party so I think she’s toast either way. A public vote is probably best so we can see which republicans don’t value our country or the laws it’s based on.

    Replacing those Republicans with Democrats is likely worse, since opposition to existing values (aka “progress”) is the Democrat lodestone now.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. What is the point? So that the chattering class has people to chatter about? Or a (however slim) way that Republicans can give Trump the finger by keeping Cheney on without Guido breaking their legs.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. Here’s something to think about. Play it out. The GOP takes back the House in 2022. Trump runs for the presidency in 2024. Assuming he loses, he will once again claim it was due to fraud, say he won, and pressure Republicans to once again, not certify the results.

    With a GOP House majority, how does that go?

    You think too small. They take back both the House and Senate. In the House they impeach Biden and Harris for rigging the election, then use a Senate trial to expound on their “evidence” which has “been excluded from courts due to standing.” They produce a lot of junk statistics and a few eyewitnesses to retail-level cock-ups that they portray as fraud.

    Everyone is acquitted, but now they go into 2024 with “having proved The Steal” and calling the Democrats “the Cheater Party”, which a lot of people now believe.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  10. Could McCarthy face a Cheney backlash?
    ……..
    Taking out Cheney (R-Wyo.) as conference chair was never going to be clean and easy for McCarthy. And this week, we’re starting to pick up on a bit of backlash against the minority leader behind the scenes. Some House Republicans are privately griping about how the California Republican has fed a colleague to the MAGA wolves in his quest to become speaker.
    …….
    McCarthy has sought to cast doubt on Cheney’s leadership ability, arguing that it is essentially selfish to call out Trump instead of prioritizing GOP unity. But other House Republicans question his own leadership qualities.

    One of them — a Republican long seen as an ally of leadership — told us Monday night he may oppose McCarthy for speaker because of all the recent drama. This person accused McCarthy of having no moral compass as he moves to punish Cheney while allowing members like Reps. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-Ga.) and MATT GAETZ (R-Fla.) to run wild.

    “Kevin McCarthy has pissed off enough members of his own conference that he’s going to have to go back to his former days as a whip to try to figure out where his votes are” to become speaker, said the member, who is neither a member of the Freedom Caucus nor a moderate. “I’d be worried if I was him. … You have people like me — who are here to do the right thing for all the right reasons and have an expectation of leadership — that are, shall we say, disgusted with the internal squabbling that results from having weak leadership. And it is weak leadership. Straight up.”

    A senior GOP aide to a conservative member put it this way: “He’s flip-flopped on [Jan. 6 and whether it’s] Trump’s fault, it’s not Trump’s fault. … It seems like he doesn’t have the backbone to lead. He bends to political pressure. It’s tough to do when you’re speaker. You have to lead.”

    On the other end of the ideological spectrum, a group of conservatives feel like they’ve been boxed in with Rep. ELISE STEFANIK (R-N.Y.), as McCarthy moved to lock her in as Cheney’s replacement. McCarthy’s move to clear the field when others wanted to run for the job has upset some on the right, though Stefanik’s announcement that she would only serve for one term has assuaged some of these concerns.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  11. It should be a public vote. Let the voting public know where each member of the House GOP Conference stands in their tolerance of GOP House Reps who don’t buy in to this StoptheSteal garbage.

    HCI (92ea66)

  12. It’s Trump’s party so I think she’s toast either way. A public vote is probably best so we can see which republicans don’t value our country or the laws it’s based on.

    Replacing those Republicans with Democrats is likely worse, since opposition to existing values (aka “progress”) is the Democrat lodestone now.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/11/2021 @ 12:50 pm

    Is there a opportunity to get better Republicans? I’d like that if possible.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  13. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

    Hoi Polloi (121542)

  14. Last time, perhaps, but at this point, does it really matter now?

    “RAWLINS, Wyo. (AP) — The Wyoming Republican Party voted overwhelmingly to censure U.S. Rep. Liz Cheney for voting to impeach President Donald Trump for his role in the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol. Only eight of the 74-member state GOP’s central committee stood to oppose censure…”

    The objective now is to dump Daughter Darth into the trash heap of history.

    Just jettison her and move on.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  15. 10.Could McCarthy face a Cheney backlash?

    Could it snow on the sun?

    McCarthy, Scalise etc., are on board to send her to the glue factory. This horse left the barn weeks ago. The ‘vote’ is mere theater.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  16. I think it’s completely reasonable for Republican leadership to choose whether it’s private or public. Honestly, whatever they feel is best for the Republican Party is fine. I don’t really feel like trying to judge whether their decision is the right one.

    nate_w (25619c)

  17. Hoi Polloi (121542) — 5/11/2021 @ 1:58 pm

    Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

    This is just playing around with words.

    That originally referred to tuberculosis, and the reason was ultraviolet light, although at the beginning they didn’t know such details.

    Tuberculosis sanitariums used to be equipped with artificial ultraviolet light. It’s one thing that has been practically forgotten,

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2789813

    Despite this long history, many infection control professionals are not familiar with the history of UVGI and how it has, and has not, been used safely and effectively.

    so in the 21st century they needed a study proving it. which of course led to little or no action.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090316201505.htm

    It was still used to disinfect empty ambulances and operating theatres – and, in 2020, discussed with President Trump at the same time bleach was (but not to take internally!)

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  18. With a GOP House majority, how does that go?

    We can’t afford to find out.

    By disqualifying the electoral votes of states Trump loses, a QOP House could force a contingent election (one vote per state) which Trump would then win.

    (It will be the Congress elected in 2024 who certifies or steals the 2024 presidential election, BTW)

    Dave (1542be)

  19. ‘I mean, right now, it’s basically the- the Titanic… And I think there’s a few of us that are just saying, guys, this is not good, not just for the future of the party, but this is not good for the future of this country.’- Adam Kinzinger

    Echoing the frets of Rockefeller Republicans. We’ve got wine and cheese older than you, kid. You’re confusing 1912– with 1964. You’re on the outs, ‘Propeller Man.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  20. Public vote, no excuses.

    Angelo (6158f9)

  21. Private vote so the trump supporters (80% of gop) know what republicans in congress really think about them.

    asset (132056)

  22. Police procedural or whodunit, either way works, if it’s staged right.

    nk (1d9030)

  23. so the trump supporters (80% of gop) know what republicans in congress really think about them

    It sure doesn’t take much to hurt the feelings of trump supporters.

    Radegunda (aea52f)

  24. Drumpfy McLoserface, the best friend the Democrats ever had. Will Nancy Palomino put the popcorn for the House Democratic Caucus on the House’s budget or have the Democratic National Committee pay for it?

    nk (1d9030)

  25. I’m not sure it matters much if the vote is private or public, or if Cheney stays or goes. Trump will still be lurking. If Cheney stays, he’ll have a nice poster girl with which to rile up his base.

    We can all agree, with the sure exception of DCSCA, and the possible exception of NJRob (I’m not going to include the hit and run people who never engage), that Trump is the worst thing to happen to American politics in at least the last 75 years.

    The question is how to influence people away from Trump and Trumpism.

    1) Is it done by attacking Trumpers everywhere, all the time, and watch as the left wins election after election ad infinitum over a bitterly divided Republican Party? Isn’t there a downside to that?

    2) Is it done by humoring Trumpers, all the while trying to leaven the craziness?

    3) Or, is it done by threading the needle, neither criticizing nor praising Trump–just ignoring him, and finding common ground on good policy?

    Whichever method is employed, it’s going to take a long time to eradicate Trumpism. He commands the biggest political cult this country has ever seen.

    I lean toward option 3–the Mitch McConnell approach.

    norcal (01e272)

  26. He commands the biggest political cult this country has ever seen.

    Obama’s is bigger.

    nk (1d9030)

  27. 3) Or, is it done by threading the needle, neither criticizing nor praising Trump–just ignoring him, and finding common ground on good policy?

    Leaving him alone to work his evil unimpeded and unchallenged doesn’t sound like a great plan to me.

    Dave (1542be)

  28. RIP Norman Lloyd (106). Worked with Charlie Chaplin, Orson Welles, and Alfred Hitchcock.

    Rip Murdock (663335)

  29. That originally referred to tuberculosis, and the reason was ultraviolet light, although at the beginning they didn’t know such details.

    True. But when our oldest was a newborn and had a case of jaundice, the doctor said to walk him in the sun. The sunlight would take care of the excess bilirubin.

    Hoi Polloi (b28058)

  30. Trump is the worst thing to happen to American politics in at least the last 75 years.

    No. Ideological conservatism is.

    And, as with Soviet communism, America is getting around to containing it at last. Darth Daughter is on the House floor this very second, whining about Reagan, and Cold Wars, and hot wars her famil avoided service in, her Daddy’s hand, and a log dead Pope.

    It’s 2021. She is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  31. @28.Helluva run.

    From Saboteur to St. Elsewhere.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  32. What is your plan, Dave?

    norcal (01e272)

  33. @26. No. Reagan tops them all.

    Those cultists want him on dimes to replace FDR, on highways, airports, sewage plants and Mt. Rushmore.=mike drop=

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. Sigh.

    nk (1d9030)

  35. @4. The Republicans like to call themselves a big tent.

    No for 30 years, Sammy. It’s 2021; The Pegster, like Liz, is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  36. Having a private vote gives McCarthy a chance to take the actual temperature of his caucus instead of relying on their public bloviating. If he’s smart it will give him an idea of whether he can nudge things a little more independently as time goes on, or if he’s going to be wedded to trumpism for the next 2 years.

    For the rest of us, it might be interesting to see who votes what and to be able to keep that as a sledgehammer for future campaigns, but it’s just a show at that point.

    Nic (896fdf)

  37. Good insight, Nic

    norcal (01e272)

  38. What is your plan, Dave?

    Do everything within my power (which frankly isn’t much) to prevent the people who tried to steal the last election from getting another chance.

    Dave (1542be)

  39. Dave,

    Does that mean refusing to vote for any Republican who isn’t an outspoken critic of Trump?

    If so, isn’t that a recipe for ever bigger lefty government that will be impossible to dismantle?

    norcal (01e272)

  40. I’ve updated the post with a clip of Cheney’s speech on the floor today.

    Dana (fd537d)

  41. 36.Having a private vote gives McCarthy a chance to take the actual temperature of his caucus instead of relying on their public bloviating.

    You have it backwards; he knows already, which is why he– and Scalise– went public and cut the legs out from under Daughter Darth.

    You know what they call her at both Denny’s in Laramie, Wyoming?

    Toast.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  42. @40. Watched it. Conservative whine; bitter dregs.

    Reagan, Pope and Daddy’s hand.

    Pathetic.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  43. @41 Hey! I’ve had breakfast at one of those!

    (Not really. I have eaten at the Denny’s in Cheyenne though.)

    I disagree that he already knows, if he knew there’d be no reason for a private vote. He’d just leave it public and let the congressmen get the “good” press for themselves in their district.

    Nic (896fdf)

  44. @43. Sure he does–he’d never have bayoneted her if he wasn’t certain. He got the temp after the last vote and private feedback. Hell, she lost Scalise. The private vote is perfoma; theater. Why reveal any more blemishes than necessary. A perptul war goddess, Daughter Darth’s time has passed. Thank God.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  45. Ms. Cheney’s six-minute speech was phenomenal. Historic, even.
    A secret vote helped Ms. Cheney last January, but I doubt it’ll help her this time around. If the votes were made public, Trump would seek his vengeance, and all the party milquetoasts and cultists will go along with him.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  46. @45. Conservative whine; bitter dregs.

    Again: Reagan, Pope, Daddy’s hand.

    Ancient drivel from a perpetual warmonger. She really does look like Daddy Darth in drag, too.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. @44 To much public pressure from bloviators not to have the vote at all. This way he gets the win from holding the vote and the win from holding it privately (see I tried to help her) and the win from information he may not have had. If his only motive was wanting her gone, a public vote would be the easiest way to do it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  48. The vote should be out in the open….so all can see who was on the wrong side of history. If a secret ballot is required for an elected official to do what is right, then that person doesn’t have the integrity to make the future difficult decisions that will invariably come. It’s sad that the GOP can’t collectively look at the serial obstruction of justice, the Ukraine impropriety, the January 6th failure to act, and all of the embarrassing tweets, covid press conferences, and pathological lies…..and not want to do better….and finally stand up to the bully. If this is the path of the GOP….siding with lawlessness and serial dishonety….then their tent will continue to shrink…because it’s not a good look

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  49. What goes around comes around:

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/nelson-rockefellers-last-stand-112072

    Glorious.

    Just glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  50. The question is how to influence people away from Trump and Trumpism.

    1) Is it done by attacking Trumpers everywhere, all the time, and watch as the left wins election after election ad infinitum over a bitterly divided Republican Party? Isn’t there a downside to that?

    2) Is it done by humoring Trumpers, all the while trying to leaven the craziness?

    3) Or, is it done by threading the needle, neither criticizing nor praising Trump–just ignoring him, and finding common ground on good policy?

    Whichever method is employed, it’s going to take a long time to eradicate Trumpism. He commands the biggest political cult this country has ever seen.

    I lean toward option 3–the Mitch McConnell approach.

    norcal (01e272) — 5/11/2021 @ 4:39 pm

    I prefer option 3. But Trumpists make it awfully hard to do that at times. Every time I have to hear the Big Lie from one of them, it makes me want to do option 1. It is tempting to want the pleasure of seeing these Trumpists weep, wail, and gnash their teeth after one of their Trumpy candidates go down in flames. But the rational side of me leans towards 3. I do agree it will take a bit of time and several election cycles for Trumpism to fade. Obama’s personality cult kind of faded months to about a year or so into his first term. Cult 45’s enduring power is beyond anything I’ve ever seen before.

    HCI (92ea66)

  51. 1) Is it done by attacking Trumpers everywhere, all the time, and watch as the left wins election after election ad infinitum over a bitterly divided Republican Party? Isn’t there a downside to that?

    2) Is it done by humoring Trumpers, all the while trying to leaven the craziness?

    3) Or, is it done by threading the needle, neither criticizing nor praising Trump–just ignoring him, and finding common ground on good policy?

    Whichever method is employed, it’s going to take a long time to eradicate Trumpism. He commands the biggest political cult this country has ever seen.

    I lean toward option 3–the Mitch McConnell approach.

    I’m afraid I wasn’t clear enough. I’m talking about Republican leaders just ignoring Trump, and thus taking some wind out of his sails.

    Out in the trenches, Trumpers do indeed need to be challenged. I’m not sure whether the best way to sway people that I encounter is with ridicule or calm dialogue. Probably the latter.

    norcal (01e272)

  52. “The question is how to influence people away from Trump and Trumpism.”

    It’s difficult when you’ve lost the major media….when Hannity, Ingraham, and Carlson continue to indoctrinate, fueled by ratings and the aphrodisiac of being close to power. Absent a heart attack….or a grand jury indictment, much of this seems baked in….and the pressure on both sides is just going to continue to build. Feckless Republicans who now own the Big Lie….will have to enable the next and the next and the next lie….because how do you finally say “no”. And if Trump is the 2024 option, how far will they go to install him…how long before he gets a secretary of state that will finally go and find his votes? The country is quickly being trapped on one side by the bad policy of big-spending Democrats and on the other by the delusional obsessions of Republicans. I would have never thought in my life that this great country would put itself in this position….to the delight of our adversaries and competitors. We are heading to a reckoning….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  53. We have already won, really. The Orange is irrelevant to people who matter. The 1%, the policy makers, the decision makers, the people who do things that affect our lives, and most of all us the affected. He has no Button, he has no Pen, he has no Phone, he has no legislative majority, he has no appointment power. Let’s keep the brand tarnished, and he’ll never get them back. The Bikers for Trump, the Twinks for Trump, the Cuban-Canadian Carpetbaggers for Trump, the Disenchanted Communist Sympathizer Comintern Adjuncts for Trump, et cetera, … what difference do they make?

    nk (1d9030)

  54. BTW, I do think the votes on Ms. Cheney should be made public, just as I thought they should’ve been made public a few months back. Our elected representatives shouldn’t be concealing their votes from their constituents.
    Ms. Cheney can take comfort that she’s not alone, but they’re still a remnant.

    She really does look like Daddy Darth in drag, too.

    I’d interested to hear DRJ’s and Dana’s take on that comment, criticizing a female politician for her looks. A real “look at that face” moment.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  55. AJ_Liberty,

    I agree about the unholy trio at Fox News. I love it when Patterico takes aim at Carlson. Speaking of which, it’s really funny when DCSCA disparages Carlson, who is one of Trump’s biggest allies.

    There should be a full-time blog somewhere devoted to pushing back against those three cult-enablers at Fox.

    Make no mistake about it. They are like daily Mass to some folks. One of my best buddies watches Carlson religiously. I’m serious. I can’t tell you how many times he tries to regurgitate it to me over the phone. Plus, a big lefty tobacco-smoking guy (yes, that passes for radical in Orem, Utah) I knew in college has become a Carlson fan, much to the surprise of a (still lefty) mutual friend.

    By the way, I quoted your excellent comment #53 on the other thread to a political section of a BYU sports board today. It received 4 “Post of the Day” nominations. I’d link it, but that section is only available to subscribers.

    norcal (01e272)

  56. There is a benefit to a private vote–Trump can’t sic his mob on the members who vote to retain Cheney.

    norcal (01e272)

  57. BTW, I do think the votes on Ms. Cheney should be made public, just as I thought they should’ve been made public a few months back. Our elected representatives shouldn’t be concealing their votes from their constituents.
    Ms. Cheney can take comfort that she’s not alone, but they’re still a remnant.

    She really does look like Daddy Darth in drag, too.

    I’d interested to hear DRJ’s and Dana’s take on that comment, criticizing a female politician for her looks. A real “look at that face” moment.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1) — 5/11/2021 @ 8:52 pm

    I agree with your first paragraph. As far as the rest, the person who insulted her looks was out of line. They should have gone after her policies they don’t like.

    I absolutely hate secret votes. They represent us so we should know how they voted.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  58. Ms. Cheney’s six-minute speech was phenomenal. Historic, even.
    A secret vote helped Ms. Cheney last January, but I doubt it’ll help her this time around. If the votes were made public, Trump would seek his vengeance, and all the party milquetoasts and cultists will go along with him.

    Agreed. The speech was as close to perfect as one could get. Her delivery was confident, unwavering, and a slap in the face of those who would subvert the Rule of Law and shamefully hitch their political futures on a big loser pushing a big lie.

    Dana (fd537d)

  59. She really does look like Daddy Darth in drag, too.

    I’d interested to hear DRJ’s and Dana’s take on that comment, criticizing a female politician for her looks. A real “look at that face” moment.

    I thought what I usually do when a woman’s looks are criticized: the individual has nothing of substance to say. The fact that the comment comes after such a dynamic speech defending and extolling America, the Constitution, and the Rule of Law leads me to believe that those issues are unimportant to the individual when there is low hanging fruit to pick.

    Dana (fd537d)

  60. We have already won, really. The Orange is irrelevant to people who matter. The 1%, the policy makers, the decision makers, the people who do things that affect our lives, and most of all us the affected. He has no Button, he has no Pen, he has no Phone, he has no legislative majority, he has no appointment power. Let’s keep the brand tarnished, and he’ll never get them back. The Bikers for Trump, the Twinks for Trump, the Cuban-Canadian Carpetbaggers for Trump, the Disenchanted Communist Sympathizer Comintern Adjuncts for Trump, et cetera, … what difference do they make?

    nk (1d9030) — 5/11/2021 @ 8:47 pm

    I don’t know where you get your confidence. I wish I were that sanguine. If the GOP wins the House and Senate in ’22 (very plausible), I see no reason the coup they winked at in ’20 won’t be carried to fruition in ’24.

    Even without an insurrection, if Trump swings… what was it… 40K? 50K? key swing state votes, (again, entirely plausible), he wins legitimately.

    lurker (59504c)

  61. Ah:

    A group of more than 100 influential Republicans plans to release a call for reforms within the GOP alongside a threat to form a new party if change isn’t forthcoming, according to a person familiar with the effort.

    The statement, set to be released Thursday, involves a “Call for American Renewal,” a credo that declares to “either reimagine a party dedicated to our founding ideals or else hasten the creation of such an alternative.” The push also will include a set of 13 yet-to-be-revealed principles that the signatories want to see the GOP embrace.

    “We’re going give the GOP one last chance to get its act together and moderate, but we’re not going to hold our breath,” Taylor told NBC News. “We’re ready to get out there and fight against the radical elements in the party to try to excise those elements from within the GOP and our national politics, and to try to invest in the deeper pro-democracy bench.”

    Taylor suggested this nascent movement will work to back candidates who support their principles, whether they be moderates or independents.

    “Enough is enough, and the GOP has had enough time to decide whether it’s going to separate itself from a man who is a chronic loser,” he said, referring to Trump, predicting a “raging civil war” if the rest of the party doesn’t get on board

    Dana (fd537d)

  62. I thought what I usually do when a woman’s looks are criticized: the individual has nothing of substance to say.

    It’s often true even without your preface.

    norcal (01e272)

  63. lurker,

    If Trump were to win legitimately in 2024, there would be the consolation that it would be his last term.

    Should he pull off a coup, I’m outta here.

    norcal (01e272)

  64. Should he pull off a coup, I’m outta here.

    It’ll take more than the likes of Il Douché and a pillow guy to get me out of here.

    lurker (59504c)

  65. @64 🙂

    norcal (01e272)

  66. https://twitter.com/CurtisHouck/status/1392188605821603840

    Absolutely repulsive. This is the Biden administration’s response to an attack on our energy infrastructure. She seems positively gleeful. She seems so happy I’d wonder if it was an inside job.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  67. It’ll take more than the likes of Il Douché and a pillow guy to get me out of here.

    lurker (59504c) — 5/11/2021 @ 11:22 pm

    Yep,

    it would take getting actual socialism and turning us into Venezuela. But there’s time.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  68. ‘A group of more than 100 influential Republicans plans to release a call for reforms within the GOP alongside a threat to form a new party if change isn’t forthcoming, according to a person familiar with the effort.’

    ROFLMAO! Influential??

    Over 100 Republicans, including former officials, threaten to split from G.O.P.-NYT 5/11/21

    ‘More than 100 Republicans, including some former elected officials, are preparing to release a letter this week threatening to form a third party if the Republican Party does not make certain changes, according to an organizer of the effort.

    The statement is expected to take aim at former President Donald J. Trump’s stranglehold on Republicans, which signatories to the document have deemed unconscionable.

    “When in our democratic republic, forces of conspiracy, division, and despotism arise, it is the patriotic duty of citizens to act collectively in defense of liberty and justice,” reads the preamble to the full statement, which is expected to be released on Thursday.

    The effort comes as House Republican leaders are expected on Wednesday to oust Representative Liz Cheney of Wyoming from their ranks because of her outspoken criticism of Mr. Trump’s election lies.

    “This is a first step,” said Miles Taylor, an organizer of the effort and a former Trump-era Department of Homeland Security official who anonymously wrote a book condemning the Trump administration. In October, Mr. Taylor acknowledged he was the author of both the book and a 2018 New York Times Op-Ed article.

    “This is us saying that a group of more than 100 prominent Republicans think that the situation has gotten so dire with the Republican Party that it is now time to seriously consider whether an alternative might be the only option,” he said.

    The list of people signing the statement includes former officials at both the state and national level who once were governors, members of Congress, ambassadors, cabinet secretaries, state legislators and Republican Party chairmen, Mr. Taylor said.

    Mr. Taylor declined to name the signers. Reuters reported earlier that the former governors Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania and Christine Todd Whitman of New Jersey will sign it, as will former Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters and former Representatives Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania, Barbara Comstock of Virginia, Reid Ribble of Wisconsin and Mickey Edwards of Oklahoma.

    Mr. Taylor declined on Tuesday to reveal the specific changes that the coalition was planning to demand of the Republican Party in its statement.

    “I’m still a Republican, but I’m hanging on by the skin of my teeth because how quickly the party has divorced itself from truth and reason,” Mr. Taylor said. “I’m one of those in the group that feels very strongly that if we can’t get the G.OP. back to a rational party that supports free minds, free markets, and free people, I’m out and a lot of people are coming with me.”

    ROFLMAO! Prominent??

    Outta power.
    Outta sight.
    Outta mind.
    And lately– outta gas.

    “Go, baby, GO!”- Walter Cronkite, CBS News

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  69. it would take getting actual socialism and turning us into Venezuela. But there’s time.

    Sure, Rob. My opposition to Trump’s assault on the pillars of our democratic republic can only mean I’m a Chavez loving socialist.

    Hail Hydra!

    lurker (59504c)

  70. @59. Heat, kitchen, etc.

    Hank Stohl’s Knish is an equal likeness- but ol’Knish didn’t channel Darth Daddy’s evil.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. @55. Speaking of which, it’s really funny when DCSCA disparages Carlson, who is one of Trump’s biggest allies.

    You truly miss what’s really going on here, AJ; Tucka is a tool; his tirades irrelevant; he talks on the TeeVee and paying any attention to him is time lost forever; the ultimate objective is to neuter and box up the modern ideological conservative movement, just as Goldwater’s Birchers were used as tools to do the dirty work of sidetracking Rockefeller Republicans in ’64– then chased out themselves by Buckley-types keeping their skirts clean after the dirty work was done.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  72. The Bikers for Trump, the Twinks for Trump, the Cuban-Canadian Carpetbaggers for Trump, the Disenchanted Communist Sympathizer Comintern Adjuncts for Trump, et cetera, … what difference do they make?

    They add up… 74 million.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  73. Why don’t you rodents and rinos start your own party?

    mg (8cbc69)

  74. Dave,

    Does that mean refusing to vote for any Republican who isn’t an outspoken critic of Trump?

    Whether they’re outspoken or not, Trump (and anyone that parrots or winks at his sedition) needs to be treated as a pariah.

    If so, isn’t that a recipe for ever bigger lefty government that will be impossible to dismantle?

    I think peoples’ fears of what the Democrats are capable of doing without a 60-vote senate super-majority are greatly exaggerated. During “the greatest economy in history” the Republicans were blowing up the budget deficit even before the pandemic. Entitlement and budget reform are not on any politician’s list of talking points.

    As I’ve said before, if the choice is between the New Deal and the Third Reich, I’ll take the New Deal.

    Dave (1542be)

  75. when a woman’s looks are criticized

    Heh! Liz Cheney has five children with a man she’s been married to for 24 years, and she did not have to import him from Czechoslovenia and dress him up in Dior.

    nk (1d9030)

  76. married to for *28* years

    nk (1d9030)

  77. “They are like daily Mass to some folks”

    What’s especially pernicious is the facade of objectivity…and the complete lack of transparency about the amount of team Trump message coordination. It’s all wrapped up and packaged on a slick NEWS channel and rationalized as news analysis….rather than spin or propaganda. But it’s classic conditioning. You can’t watch 2 or 3 hrs of FNC and not understand how a conservative-leaning individual is supposed to think…to fit in…to be part of the clique. People are schooled on how to deflect, change the subject, rationalize bad behavior by other bad behavior, selectively use facts, create ambiguity, and frame everything in terms of winning or losing. The process is then mimicked on the internet with sites that seem dedicated to spreading the meme….layering in just enough plausible theories with deceptive misinformation to create doubt about what should be obvious to the eye. There are no real standards for news analysis…or internet blogging…..no journalistic ethics…..just a push to stand out and be provocative. And it’s making too much money for those in charge to question whether what is going on is right…..

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  78. I don’t know where you get your confidence. I wish I were that sanguine. If the GOP wins the House and Senate in ’22 (very plausible), I see no reason the coup they winked at in ’20 won’t be carried to fruition in ’24.

    Even without an insurrection, if Trump swings… what was it… 40K? 50K? key swing state votes, (again, entirely plausible), he wins legitimately.

    Your concerns are valid, and I don’t disagree. I’ve said before that it’s not enough to kill a rattler. You also have to chop off the head with the edge of a shovel and bury it.

    We cannot literally do that in Trump’s case, but we can keep the brand tarnished. Not allow his Big Lie to rewrite history, nor grant his adherents any vestige of respect. The tapeworm in the GOP colon.

    Which, BTW, has also been the Democrat strategy since they helped him get the nomination in 2016, and it got them the House of Representatives back in two years and the Senate and the White House in another two.

    nk (1d9030)

  79. Be right back. I have to go deliver that truckload of popcorn and Milk Duds to the House Democratic Caucus now.

    nk (1d9030)

  80. Why don’t you rodents and rinos start your own party?

    mg (8cbc69) — 5/12/2021 @ 2:40 am

    Tell me more about how big the GOP tent is? Is there room to include people who value rule of law, fiscal discipline, and limited government? Or should everyone who wants those things stay home or vote libertarian?

    Time123 (b87ded)

  81. Why don’t you rodents and rinos start your own party?

    A great idea. You and yours have killed this one.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. RINOs. Heh! When did the New York sewer rat become a Republican? If it was by “injection” from Roy Cohn in the ’80s, the vaccine was weak:

    Trump registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987 and since that time has changed his party affiliation five times. In 1999, Trump changed his party affiliation to the Independence Party of New York. In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic. In September 2009, Trump changed his party affiliation back to the Republican Party. In December 2011, Trump changed to “no party affiliation” (independent). In April 2012, Trump again returned to the Republican Party.[4]

    nk (1d9030)

  83. Weird out there question, but if there was a breakaway group composed of law and order Dems (seemingly an oxymoron, but manifesting itself in the Philly DA race and the NYC mayoral primary, along with former LA County DA Lacey), which of the 2 strains of the GOP would be their good harbor? If it’s the NT group, it could wrest the suburbs, some exurbs and some nice parts of cities from the Dems.

    urbanleftbehind (a41a4f)

  84. So in the end, they chose the most spineless option of all: a voice vote.

    Dave (1542be)

  85. Another proof point that the GOP is the party of Trump. If you’re not willing to lie in support of his ego there’s no place for you in it. Being a staunch conservative on every other policy doesn’t matter if you say something true that Trump doesn’t like.

    Time123 (ca85c9)

  86. So in the end, they chose the most spineless option of all: a voice vote.

    They didn’t even have the guts to stay in the chamber to hear her statement. The Trumpkins will all try to paint that act of cowardice as a bold statement of principle, just as they claim that pushing Cheney out of her post has nothing at all to do with stroking Trump’s ego.

    If the GOP needs to act disgracefully in order to keep the base on board, then the base deserves to be disrespected too.

    Radegunda (aea52f)

  87. @82. When did the New York sewer rat become a Republican?

    And when did the California-by-way-of-Illinois-thespian become a Republican after voting for 20th century savior/Democrat FDR four times?

    1962, at age 51.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  88. You’ve got one party infested with nut bags who insist Earth was created 6,000 years ago and another party infested with nut bags who insist America was founded in 1619. Meanwhile, perpetual wars rage at great expense, gas lines grow, inflation resurfaces, Arabs and Jews are ‘back to normal’ shooting at each other, the pandemic still looms– China eats your lunch and Russia hacks at our security… and you wonder why furious populists rage at the constipated indifference of the Swampy Royalists.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  89. The deed is done; she’s been voted out.

    Suggested reading for Daughter Darth:

    ‘Flushed With Pride; The Story of Thomas Crapper’ by the Wallace Reyburn, charting the life of Mr. Crapper and the development of the flushing ‘Water Closet.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  90. 25. norcal (01e272) — 5/11/2021 @ 4:39 pm

    either criticizing nor praising Trump–just ignoring him, and finding common ground on good policy?

    If they wanted to ignore Donald Trump, they wouldn’t be doing anything to Liz Cheney. Instead, he’s their leader.

    Donald Trump will be interviewed on WABC radio 770 AM in New York tomorrow at 5 pm, which will I think rebroadcast at 10 pm, whicch can be heard (because it’s nightime) many places further away.

    It can be heard also at https://wabcradio.com

    They are soliciting questions:

    https://wabcradio.com/ask-president-trump-a-question

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  91. El Trumpo calls Liz Cheney, who strongly supported his policies, “a bitter, horrible human being.” That’s funny. The Trumpite intellectuals were adamant that the moral worth of a politician comes down to policy, and only policy. So were Trump’s policies morally horrible?

    El Trumpo huffs that Cheney “has no personality or anything good having to do with politics or our Country.” Make that “absolutely no personality.” That’s funny too. Trumpkins were always telling us to stop obsessing about “personality” and just look at “policy.” Now their god-king tells us that Cheney’s overwhelming support of his policies was nothing good for our Country. And clearly the Trumpkins all agree.

    Radegunda (aea52f)

  92. https://wabcradio.com/2021/05/12/anti-trump-republicans-threaten-creation-of-third-party

    WABC spurce:

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-republicans-third-party-idUSKBN2CS2R3

    Over 100 former Republican officials will sign a letter on Thursday declaring that if the Republican Party does not break with former President Donald Trump and change course, they will back the creation of a third party.

    Who are these Republicans?

    One of them ix Miles Taylpr (anonymous) That does not sound good.

    They’ve got to not work with loyal Democrats AND HAVE TO ALMOST AS SEVERELY CRITICIZE THE (INTELLECTUAL) HONESTY OF MANY DEMOCRATS.

    Among the 100 are said to be former Governors Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania and Christine Todd Whitman of New Jersey, and former Transportation Secretary Mary Peters (who’s she?*)

    Also former House members Charlie Dent, Barbara Comstock, Reid Ribble and Mickey Edwards.

    I suppose, if it takes off, Liz Cheney will join them at some point – or maybe start her own third party.

    ————————-
    * She’s from Peoria. Peoria, Arizona, that is. And was Secretary of Transportation after Norman Mineta, from October 17, 2006 to January 20, 2009.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  93. Radegunda (aea52f) — 5/12/2021 @ 10:55 am

    The Trumpite intellectuals were adamant that the moral worth of a politician comes down to policy, and only policy.

    Some Trump backers, but never Trump himself.

    Trumpkins were always telling us to stop obsessing about “personality” and just look at “policy.”

    The more sophisticated Trumpkins, but never Trump himself.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  94. Some Trump backers, but never Trump himself.

    The more sophisticated Trumpkins, but never Trump himself.

    That’s not the point. The point is that Trump’s own words contradict the rationalizations that his defenders make. Trump himself has been very clear that he defines right and wrong on the basis of his own ego and self-interest. His defenders have consistently chosen to ignore the most obvious thing about him.

    Radegunda (aea52f)

  95. @75. Liz Cheney has five children with a man she’s been married to for 24 years, and she did not have to import him from Czechoslovenia and dress him up in Dior.

    So? Phyllis Diller had six children from her marriage with her first husband. Some guys are content being camel jockeys; others prefer to buy show fillies and ride the thoroughbreds.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  96. Dave (1542be) — 5/12/2021 @ 4:08 am

    Trump (and anyone that parrots or winks at his sedition) needs to be treated as a pariah.

    If they are running for a state legislature or Congress or Secretary of State – the key question is not whether they don’t dispute the claim the 2020 election was stolen, but whether or not they would countenance overturning the next election.

    There still will be enough honest Republicans remaining that, combined with Democrats, they still won’t be able to do what Trump wanted to do after November 3. And the Supreme Court could rule the Electoral Count Act of 1887 unconstitutional in any case, even if its membership doesn;t change frm what it is now.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  97. Na na na na, na na na na, hey hey, goodbye Liz Cheney

    https://twitter.com/RepCawthorn/status/1392472893951467529

    The modern Republican party.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  98. 94. Radegunda (aea52f) — 5/12/2021 @ 11:10 am

    . His defenders have consistently chosen to ignore the most obvious thing about him.

    The defenders justified or defended having Trump as president in spite of all that.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  99. The defenders justified or defended having Trump as president in spite of all that.

    The Trumpers were given a chance to demonstrate that their Trump-love really is about policy first and foremost. Their attack on Liz Cheney — and preference for Stefanik — proves that policy is not as important to them as appeasing Trump personally. Likewise, policy is certainly not what Trump cares about most.

    Radegunda (aea52f)

  100. 92. Radegunda (aea52f) — 5/12/2021 @ 11:21 am

    The Trumpers were given a chance to demonstrate that their Trump-love really is about policy first and foremost. Their attack on Liz Cheney — and preference for Stefanik — proves that policy is not as important to them as appeasing Trump personally. Likewise, policy is certainly not what Trump cares about most.

    You can say that about the politicians.

    They actually never acknowledged faults with Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  101. 74. Dave (1542be) — 5/12/2021 @ 4:08 am

    As I’ve said before, if the choice is between the New Deal and the Third Reich, I’ll take the New Deal.

    Third Reich???

    More like Ferdinand Marcos. Except Trump’s too old.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)


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