Patterico's Pontifications

4/20/2021

The Most Crucial Step We Can Take to Reduce Police Shootings: Stop the Culture of Non-Compliance

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



An update on my post yesterday about the Washington Post‘s failure to update their police shootings database in at least one glaring instance.

First, I looked at their stated criteria and they do evince an intent to keep the database updated, which is good:

The Post’s database is updated regularly as fatal shootings are reported and as facts emerge about individual cases.

Second, I started combing through some of the other 2019 shootings of “unarmed” black men and found no other obvious errors. I did see a lot of shootings that seemed clearly justified, and some that were questionable. But there was a clear thread throughout: the suspects were to some degree noncompliant.

Here’s an example of one of those shootings where the suspect was not just noncompliant but also violent:

But “unarmed.”

This leads me to this observation:

Fixing the culture of non-compliance with police would lower police shooting deaths more than any other solution. Pretending this is false ensures the problem will continue.

This is not to say police are never at fault. They sometimes are. Sometimes egregiously so. But in the vast majority of cases, including ones where they are at fault, full compliance from the outset would have avoided the entire incident. That is a fact and it matters, if you care about these deaths.

Nothing about my point suggests we cannot recognize and address other issues that contribute to these shootings. But non-compliance is the most common thread in these shootings (other than the suspects being male). It’s insane not to notice this and try to fix it.

Watch this video, which I linked in my recent Substack newsletter:

The civil rights activist who underwent use of the force training shown in this video concluded with this observation: “I didn’t understand how important compliance was . . . People need to comply with the orders of law enforcement officers for their own sake.”

People who say this on social media these days are roundly mocked and told they are minimizing racism and police abuse. They are told they are advocating a police state and they might as well be Nazis. But you could believe police abuse and racism are widespread and rampant and still advocate compliance because it saves lives.

It’s just a fact. Not a popular fact, but a fact nonetheless.

P.S. This is a theme I’ll likely be taking up more and more in coming days. In particular, I plan to start combing through these databases to look for the factor of noncompliance with police orders. Oddly, that’s not a factor in their database that is catalogued that you can see with a click of a mouse. I wonder why not.

82 Responses to “The Most Crucial Step We Can Take to Reduce Police Shootings: Stop the Culture of Non-Compliance”

  1. As a practical matter, you are of course correct.

    As an ideological matter, though, what this means is that we live in a world where we can be stopped by agents of the state at any time, questioned and detained for any reason whatsoever (or no reason), and that we are expected to comply and go along with it and maybe fight it in court later, after our lives have been disrupted.

    Which means this simply isn’t a free society, no matter how much we may claim it is. It’s *more* free than many others, but that’s a relative comparative, nothing more.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  2. Compliance to the law is important and I can’t argue that you’re wrong in your immediate point. What I’ve heard black people say is that they’re ordered to be compliant to frequently, more force is used, and when there is excessive force the system doesn’t deliver transparency and justice.

    Here’s a video that illustrates part of that. Thankfully no one died. contrast this with a youtube search for ‘woman arrested for not wearing mask’. The lies the city of Chicago about how the Adam Toledo shooting happened is an illustration of another part of it.

    I don’t have all the answers, and I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I think ‘comply with the police’ is perhaps an incomplete solution.

    Time123 (306531)

  3. “Stop the Culture of non-compliance.”

    Didn’t work all that well during Prohibition. The ‘culture problem’ has a common denominator in the United States: GUNS.

    Until this is idiocy is maturely addressed by citizens of a modern, 21st century nation-state, a people intelligent enough to construct and fly helicopters on the planet Mars, assessment stands; America: you suck.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  4. Says the prosecutor.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  5. Why should I be a sucker and comply with the law when I see so many others getting away with non-compliance? Let me know when any of these politicians who mysteriously become multi-millionaires while in office winds up in jail. Until then, the idea of equal justice under the law is just a sick joke and we all know it.

    Jerryskids (999ce8)

  6. how many here taking issue with the host’s point have chosen to live in a neighborhood where a culture of non-compliance is the norm?

    raise your hand

    JF (e1156d)

  7. Says the prosecutor.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/20/2021 @ 9:45 am

    cheap shot and surprising given that your comments are usually more interesting to read.

    Time123 (653992)

  8. how many here taking issue with the host’s point have chosen to live in a neighborhood where a culture of non-compliance is the norm?

    raise your hand

    JF (e1156d) — 4/20/2021 @ 9:57 am

    I’ve had poor neighbors before if that’s what you’re asking. I got a better place to live when i could afford it.

    Time123 (653992)

  9. Why should I be a sucker and comply with the law when I see so many others getting away with non-compliance? Let me know when any of these politicians who mysteriously become multi-millionaires while in office winds up in jail. Until then, the idea of equal justice under the law is just a sick joke and we all know it.

    Jerryskids (999ce8) — 4/20/2021 @ 9:50 am

    99% of the time you’ll be OK. The cops are used to this crap and so long as they are patient, they can call up their friends to increase their safety and eventually work this out safely.

    But once in a while you will get the guy who just experienced something you don’t understand, or maybe years of it, or he’s scared of you, or he just screws up, and maybe it doesn’t go well.

    Equal justice may not be truly perfectly possible, but it’s not a joke. It’s actually also not just the cop’s responsibility.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  10. not what i’m asking

    poor is not synonymous with non-compliant

    if you chose to live in a neighborhood of non-compliance just say so

    JF (e1156d)

  11. Equal justice may not be truly perfectly possible, but it’s not a joke. It’s actually also not just the cop’s responsibility.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 4/20/2021 @ 10:21 am

    Bingo. This times a thousand.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  12. This is a no-brainer. If too many stops are met with hostility and disrespect, it will wear on anyone’s patience and citizens start losing the benefit of the doubt. Again, that’s one side of the equals sign. The other side is that cops need to build good will in the communities that they are policing…and emphasize de-escalation and restraint…especially for non-violent matters. The classic training scenario was the Eric Garner selling cigarettes situation. I get that he did not comply…and he should of…..but the situation escalated when it didn’t have to. That’s certainly a case where cops could have let the situation cool down rather than initiating the tackling and choking maneuvers.

    I think too many rookie cops feel like they need to practice their arrest techniques…and it’s at the cost of using the appropriate amount of force. There’s also a bit too much militarization of policing whereas the attitudes should be different.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  13. JF, I don’t know of a non-compliant neighborhood that isn’t also poor, but as a technical matter you’re correct it doesn’t have to be. I lived in one for a while when i was younger.

    Time123 (653992)

  14. No one was shot and force wasn’t used. But the kid who was arrested for riding a bike without a license didn’t go a good job complying.

    https://twitter.com/deep_dab/status/1384019471363309568

    Time123 (653992)

  15. Compliance with what? The BDSM fetish of some thug, or the pants-pooping fearfulness of some affirmative action hiring Nervous Nellie, who made it through the police academy?

    Why should innocent persons be handcuffed, or forced to kneel or lie down, or have guns pointed at them, or otherwise be ordered to sit up and bark, while a cop snoops? Is this America?

    nk (1d9030)

  16. 1) By a culture of noncompliance I think you’re referring to human nature. Has there ever been a time when everybody has been meek and compliant to the police? I’ve no idea what the actual reality was, but that’s not the image you get from movies.

    2) Arguably Adam Toledo was compliant. He dropped the gun. Just not in a way the police wanted it to happen, but assuming that a 13 year old is going to work out those details is a little problematic.

    3) As Time’s video of the guy being body slammed showed, compliance to one officer will look like noncompliance to another.

    4) When police see compliance as the important goal they feel empowered to use any level of force to ensure compliance which means that any resistance of a suspect escalates and can quickly become mortal. Perhaps compliance shouldn’t be the most important goal, but keeping everybody alive should be.

    5 Leading to the point that noncompliance with the police shouldn’t be a death sentence.

    Victor (4959fb)

  17. 14. That was absitively, posolutely black kids in a white neighborhood, Time123.

    nk (1d9030)

  18. Why should innocent persons be handcuffed, or forced to kneel or lie down, or have guns pointed at them, or otherwise be ordered to sit up and bark, while a cop snoops? Is this America?

    nk (1d9030) — 4/20/2021 @ 11:19 am

    Sounds like we are living in East Germany. Maybe even China. I assume probable cause means nothing to you, but most police have probable cause to stop and detain the person they are questioning.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  19. HP, what was the probably cause for body slamming the man in the video i provided?

    Time123 (235fc4)

  20. I’m really not sure what “Culture of non-compliance” means. Criminals, for example, tend not to comply. People whacked out of their minds on drugs and/or alcohol often don’t know how to comply.

    I guess this is about those who are just ornery and disrespect the badge. But I would think most of them would hesitate before assaulting an officer, and failing to to do that (absent a threat to others) would probably mean the officer doesn’t use deadly force.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. Part of the culture of non-compliance is non-compliance with others. A few years back, I saw someone in Venice, CA, put 4 racks of ribs into his pants (!) and try to walk out of a Smart&Final with them. The manager stopped him and there was an argument. Knowing the cops wouldn’t show up until too late, they settled on him stealing only 2 racks of ribs.

    Recently, here in Albuquerque, a bunch of (unmasked) anti-mask demonstrators forced their way into a Sprouts Market and refused to leave for an hour. The police were called by management and several customers (including me) but the police never showed.

    Compliance needs to start well before the police show up. If not, well, we’re arguing about degree, not kind.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  22. I blame the 55MPH speed law. Maybe pot laws, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  23. @19 it’s not a secret that cops stop people for minor offenses so they can check if you have outstanding warrants

    if you have a different approach, let’s hear it

    it’s also not a secret that if you have no outstanding warrants and simply comply you’re virtually guaranteed to walk away with at most a ticket

    JF (e1156d)

  24. As for so many shootings, maybe we need to accept the use of the billy club again. If it had happened today, they would have shot Rodney King.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  25. what was the probably cause for body slamming the man in the video i provided?

    Specific cases of bad-cop don’t really address the issue Pat’s bringing up. He sees and increased belligerence on the part of individuals and says that leads to an increase in shootings.

    I’m not sure about that, as drunks have been taking swings at cops since there were cops. I think it is as much training and an easier resort to lethal force against clearly unarmed people. It might also be a willingness to hire less physically capable officers as in times past.

    Lots of factors.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  26. @7. ‘cheap shot’

    Given the thread topic, was that pun intended or accidentally discharged? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  27. @19 it’s not a secret that cops stop people for minor offenses so they can check if you have outstanding warrants

    if you have a different approach, let’s hear it

    it’s also not a secret that if you have no outstanding warrants and simply comply you’re virtually guaranteed to walk away with at most a ticket

    JF (e1156d) — 4/20/2021 @ 12:10 pm

    1. What offense did you see him commit? Standing without a license?
    2. What didn’t he comply with?

    What I saw is he was answering the officers questions and another officer came up, grappled him in a bear hug, and slammed him to the ground.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  28. Equal justice may not be truly perfectly possible, but it’s not a joke.

    Actually, it is.

    And that’s a harsh reality to accept. Lori Loughlin will do more time in prison than Richard Nixon ever did– or Donald Trump ever will.

    Or ask Ashli Babbitt, instead. Oh. Wait. She was shot dead by a still nameless, Royalist Capitol Cop who, to date, will not be prosecuted for her multiple-videoed murder.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  29. I’m going to withdraw my question in 27. It’s a derail that clip was intended to illustrate a point, not stand as proof on it’s own.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  30. OT: Biden to order flag to full staff later in the week.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  31. Re. comment about compliance to one officer will look like non-compliance to another. Something I’ve noticed in far too many multi-officer situations is that they are all yelling (and all yelling different things). If you want compliance you need to enforce that there is only one person giving orders.

    Soronel HaetirSoronel Haetir (58e8b7)

  32. …it’s also not a secret that if you have no outstanding warrants and simply comply you’re virtually guaranteed to walk away with at most a ticket…

    Lest you forget, simple “tickets” these days aren’t Deputy-Barney-Fife-of-Mayberry-$25-fines. They’re often hundreds of dollars.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  33. He sees and increased belligerence on the part of individuals and says that leads to an increase in shootings.

    So did that infamous entrepreneur and enterprising capitalist, Al Capone.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  34. @27: show the full clip first, unedited, uncut and including what led up to it

    an officer mentions they had been warned before

    looks like you need a bike license in that area and the guy didn’t have it

    the incident lacks context, but you seem satisfied with just what the videographer wanted you to see

    JF (e1156d)

  35. it’s also not a secret that if you have no outstanding warrants and simply comply you’re virtually guaranteed to walk away with at most a ticket…

    Do you think that black folk have the same certainty that they will be treated civilly in encounters with police?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. Says the prosecutor.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 4/20/2021 @ 9:45 am

    cheap shot and surprising given that your comments are usually more interesting to read.

    Time123 (653992) — 4/20/2021 @ 10:01 am

    It was a visceral reaction.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  37. Biden to order flag to full staff later in the week.

    When was the last time he ordered a cheeseburger and tied his own shoes– that should make national news, too.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  38. Breaking News: CHAUVIN VERDICT REACHED – to be read soon. Food must have been lousy at the Days Inn the jury was sequestered at.

    Either way it goes, make your popcorn and get ready to watch American cities burn and get looted tonight!

    “The Death Hour. It’ll wipe fvckin’ Disney right off the air!” – Max Schumacher [William Holden] ‘Network’ 1976

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  39. @35: no

    should they? yes

    even if true, does a no answer lead to better outcomes?

    JF (e1156d)

  40. JF, The link provides you with all the info you want. I wouldn’t have picked that one to post in response to Patterico if the information wasn’t available and didn’t support my point. You’re welcome to dig into it and show me I’m wrong. But the details are readily available. But the tl:dr version is that officer body slam came up slammed that guy without a good reason to do so.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  41. Chris Rock was speaking this truth 14 years ago.

    Paul Montagu (26e0d1)

  42. 12. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 4/20/2021 @ 10:31 am

    I get that he did not comply…and he should of…..but the situation escalated when it didn’t have to.

    It was worse. He sad “This stops now”

    The police thought he was engaging in an act of civil disobedience. They didn;t realize he suffered a real medical emergency. One of his daughters died of the same thing a few years later, with no policemen around to blame..

    https://theundefeated.com/features/the-tragic-loss-of-erica-garner

    Then, in a twist of fate that mirrors her martyred father’s horrifying demise, the daughter herself is felled by a heart attack brought on by a breath-depriving asthma attack.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  43. it’s also not a secret that if you have no outstanding warrants and simply comply you’re virtually guaranteed to walk away with at most a ticket

    JF (e1156d) — 4/20/2021 @ 12:10 pm

    Driving Under the Influence of alcohol might also do that sometimes. And you could question the whole way bench warrants are handled.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  44. Here’s another one, details seem clear and it’s an example of where the system doesn’t hold officers accountable when they make a mistake with use of force. To my mind, that’s the larger problem.

    Time123 (235fc4)

  45. As a practical matter, you are of course correct.

    As an ideological matter, though, what this means is that we live in a world where we can be stopped by agents of the state at any time, questioned and detained for any reason whatsoever (or no reason), and that we are expected to comply and go along with it and maybe fight it in court later, after our lives have been disrupted.

    Which means this simply isn’t a free society, no matter how much we may claim it is. It’s *more* free than many others, but that’s a relative comparative, nothing more.

    I don’t know that I agree with what you’re implying I’m saying: that citizens must always and everywhere comply with every single order by cops no matter how clearly unlawful and no matter the level of danger. But when guns enter the picture, I do think it’s wise to comply even if you subjectively think the cop is in the wrong — because often, the citizen is wrong in their assessment of what the cop legally has the right to do.

    If I am walking down the street, minding my own business, I may feel like I have no obligation to follow the orders of a random cop who pulls up next to me, points a gun at me, and orders me to the ground. But if, unbeknownst to me, I perfectly fit the description of a mass shooter who was last seen running into the same general area, I would be wrong in my belief that I need not comply. So yeah, I need to fucking comply whether I personally disagree or not. And if I don’t, I might end up dead.

    We can have a “free” society where violent criminals can run around with impunity and investigative stops are not permitted, but I’m not sure we’d want to live in that society.

    That’s the direction we seem to be headed, by the way. If we get there, I hope you like the “freedom”!

    Patterico (e349ce)

  46. Re: Chauvin verdict.

    It seems to me that what they call second degree murder should be third degree murder, and what they call third degree murder should be second degree murder, but that’s not the way the law is.

    Chauvin was not charged with intentionally killing George Floyd.

    There were three possible things he could be convicted of, according to the New York Post.

    Summarizing their summary, an going from least serious to most serious, they were:

    1) Second-degree manslaughter: Negligence creating an unreasonable risk of death.

    2) Third-degree murder: Depraved indifference.

    Considering that he ignored a report that Floyd’s pulse had stopped, it almost goes without saying. I don;t think the jry needed to take any time at all agreeing on that.

    The problem was the top charge:

    3) Second degree murder: Unintentionally causing death but intentionally committing a felony.

    The felony would be assault.

    I think that probably means that his attempt to transport George Floyd would have at some point changed from part of a legal arrest to an illegal assault, if it isn’t that just cutting off his blood circulation to the brain by doing something not supported by the police rule book is enough for what he did to be classified as an assault, period. A lot probably depended on the judge’s instructions.

    I don’t think that even a conviction on the top charge is necessarily enough for looters to cancel their plans.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  47. Patterico:

    If I am walking down the street, minding my own business, I may feel like I have no obligation to follow the orders of a random cop who pulls up next to me, points a gun at me, and orders me to the ground. But if, unbeknownst to me, I perfectly fit the description of a mass shooter who was last seen running into the same general area, I would be wrong in my belief that I need not comply.

    And something like that happened to Patterico. He was SWATted. Someone made a totally false report.

    Sammy Finkelman (51cd0c)

  48. Patterico:

    I am interested in your take on the Minneapolis Star Tribune story on the background of the jury. Are the juror questionnaires in California confidential or public records?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  49. we are expected to comply and go along with it and maybe fight it in court later, after our lives have been disrupted.

    Correct. That’s the proper recourse. What do you propose as an alternative? should we let people fight the police if they disagree with the direction?

    What I think is a better point is that the system needs to do a better job of defending the rights of people whose lives have been disrupted by unlawful orders and unlawful policy.

    Time123 (653992)

  50. @46. Looking forward to some great ‘America-Is-Burning-Mad-TeeVee-tonight, Sammy.
    _____

    Pop quiz: Where’s Waldo?!?!

    Find the straight, white, Anglo-Saxon-protestant-male anchorman at CNN:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CNN_personnel

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  51. Here’s another one, details seem clear and it’s an example of where the system doesn’t hold officers accountable when they make a mistake with use of force. To my mind, that’s the larger problem.

    I don’t know enough about the details of that case to form a judgment. There are exceptions to the warrant requirement. I don’t know enough about the facts to know if any of them apply here.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  52. “Hutchinson police say a 61-year-old man is in custody after allegedly dragging an officer with his vehicle while simultaneously striking him with a hammer following a dispute about face masks at a Menards store.”

    https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1382671200867004421

    Video here

    https://twitter.com/davenewworld_2/status/1382670554205990917

    On the other hand:

    The suit claims Garner, who has dementia, suffered a dislocated shoulder, broken arm and other injuries when she was arrested on suspicion of shoplifting $13.88 worth of items from a Walmart close to her Loveland home.

    https://www.newsweek.com/loveland-police-arrest-woman-dementia-1583899

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  53. Patterico:

    I am interested in your take on the Minneapolis Star Tribune story on the background of the jury.

    You are? Why? I’m the prosecutor, remember? The things I say can be dismissed with a sneer.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  54. Here’s another one, details seem clear and it’s an example of where the system doesn’t hold officers accountable when they make a mistake with use of force. To my mind, that’s the larger problem.

    There’s a pending lawsuit. My review of PACER does not show a resolution. Where do you get the idea that the system has failed to hold officers accountable? (Even if the suit is dismissed, a one-sided TV news story does not prove anything.)

    Patterico (e349ce)

  55. Note that the guy in the first link above was not shot, or even tazed.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  56. Most of us are pretty much willing to comply with a uniformed police officer’s request- ‘course we’re all human and it does matter how one is asked to comply- especially if you are certain the request is in error. The issue always comes back to guns. And until United States grows up and addresses this deadly problem with a 21st century mindset, it will continue to fester as the rest of the world shrugs, chuckles and moves on into tomorrow.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. Note that the guy in the first link above was not shot, or even tazed.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  58. The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday sidestepped a chance to review the scope of a legal defense called qualified immunity that increasingly has been used to shield police accused of excessive force, turning away an appeal by a Cleveland man who sued after being roughed up by police while trying to enter his own home.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-qualifiedimmunity/u-s-supreme-court-rejects-case-over-qualified-immunity-for-police-idUSKBN2B01L6

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  59. Patterico:

    I am interested in your take on the Minneapolis Star Tribune story on the background of the jury.

    You are? Why? I’m the prosecutor, remember? The things I say can be dismissed with a sneer.

    Patterico (e349ce) — 4/20/2021 @ 1:24 pm

    I apologize for that unthinking and visceral reaction. As someone who is about to serve on a jury, I am very curious.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  60. I’m going to share a story about compliance.

    I was in Houston at the time, going to a 4th of July fire works show in the park. Saw an officer, asked her where we were supposed to go. She said, “Just go up this road a bit and then turn left.”

    Great. So we went up the road a bit, but weren’t quite sure where we were supposed to turn left as there were two options. We decided one looked more likely to be right, and went there. Pretty soon it became clear it wasn’t the right option, but, as it was a parallel path, we decided to just stick with it and rejoin the other path later.

    A little while later it became clear we were in a taped off area we were not supposed to be. No idea how we got into but…. We could see the road we were supposed to be on, but it had rained recently and there was a large, water-filled ditch between our road and the right road. Up ahead a hundred yards was a clear road where we would be able to cut back over to the correct parallel path.

    We got to maybe 100 feet away from the connecting road when four other police officers, two on horseback, two on foot, saw us and started rushing towards us. They all started yelling directions at us. “Stop.” “Come here right now.” “Turn around and go back.” We stopped, which, you know worked for one of the officers, but upset some of the other ones. “Tell us what you’re doing.” “Stop talking.” As someone who’d always assumed I was part of the “culture of compliance”, I was surprised at how difficult compliance could be.

    Finally one officer took charge, which was great as it made it easier to figure out what we were supposed to be doing. He told us we needed go to the parallel road immediately.

    I tried to talk, with our conversation going something along the lines of “Yes, we’re trying to get there, there’s a road right there we are hoping to get back over to it on.”

    “No. You need to go directly to that road.”

    “Right, officer, we are trying to, there is a large ditch filled with water between here and there. Can we walk to the road with you.”

    “You need to go there now, I don’t care if there’s a ditch. And stop talking. If you say anything else I’m going to arrest you.”

    Two of the officers have started walking back to the road we were hoping to cross on. We’ve walked over to the ditch and are just kind of staring at it. It’s clearly too big to jump over without getting water up to our calves. Officer in charge comes up to us and says something along the lines of “Go now.” A few tried to jump, didn’t come anywhere close. Wet shoes, wet clothes. I, scared to talk, just try to gesture towards the ditch. Officer in charge comes up to me and pushes me into the ditch.

    I remember my immediate impulse (learned at swimming pools and lakes of my childhood) was to grab his arm and pull him in with me, but thank goodness I was able to overcome that and just, hop in a ditch of water.

    “Get out of here before I decide to arrest you,” he called at us as we walked away. It was a really terrible encounter. We were silent for a while as we walked down the road. A few hundred yards down, I said, “That really wasn’t ok. Did anyone happen to get his name or badge number.” Of course no one had.

    Against the advice of my friends I decided that I should go back and ask for his name and badge number. Whereupon he of course placed me under arrest. The story goes on, but that feels like enough to question “Is a culture of compliance really what we want?”

    nate_w (25619c)

  61. had you been white, nate_w, you would’ve been treated better

    JF (e1156d)

  62. If Floyd would have complied, Chauvin wouldn’t have been on the scene at all, and Floyd would have been riding in an air conditioned car, processed and out in the morning.
    He didn’t deserve to die, but he sure didn’t help himself.

    Thanks to Maxine Waters, Chauvin has better odds at appeal.

    steveg (ebe7c1)

  63. That’s an interesting story, Nate.

    I wouldn’t have been happy if I were in your shoes.

    On the other hand, if aggressive policing like that keeps crime down in my neighborhood, I’ll put up with it.

    norcal (01e272)

  64. If I am walking down the street, minding my own business, I may feel like I have no obligation to follow the orders of a random cop who pulls up next to me, points a gun at me, and orders me to the ground. But if, unbeknownst to me, I perfectly fit the description of a mass shooter who was last seen running into the same general area, I would be wrong in my belief that I need not comply. So yeah, I need to fucking comply whether I personally disagree or not. And if I don’t, I might end up dead.

    Something very similar happened to my college roommate, in Ann Arbor.

    He was walking along some railroad tracks on the outskirts of town one night when an unmarked car pulled up, a man in plain clothes jumped out, pointed a gun at him, and told him put his hands up. From what I remember, he didn’t identify himself as police until my roommate asked something like “who are you to tell me to put my hands up?”.

    Soon lots of other police cars with uniformed officers arrived. My roommate apparently fit the description of someone who had robbed a liquor store nearby.

    Scary situation, it’s a good thing he didn’t try to run or do anything else to alarm the first cop.

    Dave (1bb933)

  65. Comment in moderation for quoting Patrick’s colorful language…

    Dave (1bb933)

  66. 62.If Floyd would have complied, Chauvin wouldn’t have been on the scene at all, and Floyd would have been riding in an air conditioned car, processed and out in the morning. He didn’t deserve to die, but he sure didn’t help himself. Thanks to Maxine Waters, Chauvin has better odds at appeal.

    If the dead idiot had stayed home high and didn’t tried to pass counterfeit cash, none of this would have happened at all.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. President Plagiarist thinks America is ‘systemically racist.’

    If it was, it would never have elected him; an Irish-Catholic plagiarist.

    Idiot.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  68. All compliance got Daniel Shaver was the deprivation of his dignity before the deprivation of his life.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. @DCSCA@66. Statistically speaking that isn’t a good argument. What percentage of the population is Catholic? What percentage of presidents have been Catholic?

    Also, I have no idea of the religion or sexuality of most CNN anchors.

    Nic (896fdf)

  70. @68.It’s an observation, not an argument.

    The man is an idiot, trying to stoke systematic racism. especially given the history of the Irish and Catholics in America nd the reforms/changes over a few generations which have allow them to rise and assimilate into American society- both in business and political circles.

    As to CNN, most of the anchors have let viewers know their sexual preferences [Lemon/Cooper for start] as well as their secular status; Catholic, Jewish, Hindu– [some of the witches who pass for news readers may likely be Wiccan 😉 ]

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. ” cavalcade of absolutely terrible cases like Floyds ”

    You have been lied to continuously for almost a year by right wing media about the facts of the case.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  72. “Performative and attention-seeking on all counts.’

    Don’t sign your posts.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  73. Please ignore the pathetic lard-bucket, Davethulhu. Patterico keeps banning it, and it keeps coming back under a VPN and hundreds of pseuds. Like a dog coming back to its vomit.

    nk (1d9030)

  74. Honestly given the qualifications of “straight, white, Anglo-Saxon-protestant-male” it should be a pretty small percentage anyway, since half the population are women, 22% are Catholic, around 5-10% are in the gender/sexuality letter salad and of those left, only 10% of them are of British descent.

    Nic (896fdf)

  75. Comment in moderation for quoting Patrick’s colorful language…

    Yeah, sorry about that. I don’t set up the filter’s rule that I get to say what I like but others can’t, even if they’re quoting me. But that’s the filter’s rule.

    It’s good to be the admin, I guess.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  76. nate_w,

    That story, which I want to hear the rest of, is infuriating. I do want to hear the rest. I’m not sure it invalidates my point, but it provides some perspective in the sense that it reinforces the stories of *some* cops being completely insufferable assholes who don’t deserve to have their position.

    That said, JF’s #61 is kind of funny in its way.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  77. nate:

    You’re not @ECH_ALA on Twitter, are you? Because he also has a mysterious and seemingly bad story about cops that I want to hear more about. And while I have had limited interaction with him, as I have had with you, I think pretty highly of both of you.

    Patterico (e349ce)

  78. It seems like technology should be able to solve this problem.

    Police just need a better taser or the equivalent (i.e. a non-lethal weapon that leaves the target unable to resist for 15-30 seconds), and a doctrine that says to use it at the *first* sign of non-compliance.

    Maybe a sonic or visual flashbang? The police could wear hearing and/or eye protection that renders it harmless to them. A knockout or disorientation drug, ideally with an antidote the police can administer after the suspect is secured, could also work.

    Dave (1bb933)

  79. HotAir has a piece up based on you WaPo post.

    “…the blogger known as Patterico …”

    Dave (1bb933)

  80. Pat, I don’t have a twitter account, so that’s not me.

    Before I continue the story I’d like to point out that off the top of my head this is the only negative encounter I’ve had with law enforcement, and have had a few that I’ve been extremely impressed with how the police handled themselves. Maybe it’s worth sharing some of those at other times to not distort the reality I’ve experienced, which leaves me with an overall quite positive view of the average police officer.

    That said, when I went back to the officer, I approached and said:
    “Excuse me, officer, can I get your name and badge number.”

    “Give me your drivers’ license.”

    “I’m just asking for your name and badge number.”

    “Well now you’re under arrest.”

    “For asking for your name and badge number?”

    “No, for trespassing.”

    I gave him my drivers license, he walked off with it.

    I was there for about half an hour, with interactions with the officer on and off. I believe I tried to make was “If I wasn’t arrested for trespassing originally, and the only thing that changed was asking for your name and badge number, I’m not being arrested for trespassing, I’m being arrested for asking for your name and badge number.” His point that he made clear was that he was trying to go light on us and told us to leave or be arrested, which I then changed my mind about.

    After a while, some sort of commanding officer (a lieutenant? I’m not sure) came on the scene and de-escalated. He talked to the officer for a while. Then he asked me what happened. I tried to at some point ask if it was just this officer or if it was the department’s policy to arrest people who asked for names and badge numbers. He said of course not, and that there were two ways this could go: a) I could go down to the police station, maybe spend the night in jail for trespassing, maybe not, file a complaint that would be put in his file but probably not come to anything other than that, or b) I could let this go, they could drop the trespassing charge, he would personally have a long talk with the officer to try to prevent a situation like this from happening again, we could all go watch the fireworks, and move on with our lives. He made it clear it was up to me which way this went. I chose to walk away, but was a little disappointed in myself for making that choice.

    My memories of some of the time between my initial conversation where he took my ID and when his superior officer got there are hazy, but I retain some of it: I remember being on the verge of tears, never having been in trouble before. What had been four police officers nearby slowly grew in number until it was 12 officers & me (we were in a park, there were no cars, these were just other officers helping with the city’s firework display; I guess there wasn’t a whole lot else going on). At some point the officer who had initially tried to give us directions came over. She asked what happened, I told her a shortened version. She tried to tell me something along the lines of “Not all of us would have handled it like this,” although I don’t remember her exact words (I think it was somewhat clear I was close to tears).

    It was a negative experience. What should have been a reasonable policing action (they were keeping us, the public safe from fireworks that were to start in an hour or so), became a ridiculous confrontation with ridiculous demands, into an imprudent arrest, into not-so-subtle holding ridiculous legal consequences over my head to sweep the incident under the rug.

    P.S. I now am remembering more detail from this event 15 years ago that gives the initial encounter more reasonableness from the police’s perspective if you’d like to hear it.

    nate_w (1f1d55)

  81. Live and learn, nate_w. This is old hat in Chicago. You don’t ask a cop for his name and badge number. You surreptitiously peek at the nametag and badge and memorize them. And they have caught on to that, too, so they don’t wear them. Their nametags and badges. They wear shirts or sweaters with the department badge embroidered where the badge would go.

    nk (1d9030)

  82. And, oh! Yes! Keeping you cooling your heels is another tactic. And not limited to the police. Of the entire petty bureaucracy. When one of them is having a bad day or does not like the way you comb your hair. Or if they feel that you’re not “complying”. If you had gone on to file a complaint in person, it would have been a good idea to take the whole day off from work. And pack a lunch. And Nicorette.

    nk (1d9030)


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