Patterico's Pontifications

3/30/2021

Mitch McConnell: C’mon Republican Men, Get Vaccinated!

Filed under: General — Dana @ 1:17 pm



[guest post by Dana]

This is unsurprising. Yet it also reveals a big disconnect given that the former President and his wife received coronavirus vaccinations back in January at the White House:

Americans who currently reject the COVID-19 vaccine also don’t trust several of the healthcare experts who are urging vaccination.

There is one person whose medical advice these Americans trust — and it is someone who was vaccinated himself in January: President Donald Trump. Half of those who reject the COVID vaccine today (50%), trust medical advice when it comes from President Trump.

That is far more than the share of this group that trusts the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (23%), President Joe Biden (15%), or Dr. Anthony Fauci (13%), the head of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases. The poll shows that, although no longer president, Donald Trump still has a role to play in the nation’s vaccination efforts. This already seems to have been recognized by Dr. Fauci and other medical experts who have called upon Trump to recommend the vaccine to his supporters, something the former president did in a recent Fox News interview.

The public overall is far more likely to trust the CDC (55%), Fauci (46%), and Biden (42%) for their medical advice than to trust former President Trump (31%). Republicans overall (66%) are more likely than those who refuse vaccination to say they trust medical advice from President Trump, compared to 7% of Democrats.

poll

A recent PBS NewsHour/NPR/Marist poll released earlier this month indicated that 49% of Republican men aren’t planning on getting vaccinated. Yesterday, Sen. Minority Leader Mitch McConnell made a public appeal to “all Republican men” to get vaccinated:

“I can say as a Republican man, as soon as it was my turn, I took the vaccine. I would encourage all Republican men to do that,” said McConnell, a Kentucky Republican, on Monday, when asked what kind of messaging he can push as the GOP leader to help encourage people, specifically Republican men, that the vaccine is safe and they should get it.

McConnell added that there is “no good argument not to get the vaccination. I would encourage all men regardless of party affiliation to get the vaccination,” at a news conference in Hazard, Kentucky, outside a health care clinic for an event focusing on the state’s vaccination efforts.

–Dana

144 Responses to “Mitch McConnell: C’mon Republican Men, Get Vaccinated!”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (fd537d)

  2. Hello.

    Seems the Biden administration, in concert but maybe not (maybe in secret concert), is working on a vaccination passport (paper and/or digital app) to ensure polite society can ostracize anyone who does not have a vaccine, much like we did at one time with lepers, adulterers, and Jews.

    So if McConnell can’t convince them, maybe social and governmental ostracization will.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  3. The Estill County Health Department is so f(ornicating) inept that, even though I have been “on the list” for a while now, they never did what they said and called to schedule my appointment. My darling bride suggested I call them back, and shazamm! I’m scheduled for 9:30 AM on Thursday, and have even been given the choice between Moderna and the Johnson & Johnson; I chose the Moderna, because that’s what my wife had.

    But this proposed ‘vaccine passport’ bovine feces? Any business which asks me for proof of vaccination will not ever get my business.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  4. Mr Polloi wrote:

    So if McConnell can’t convince them, maybe social and governmental ostracization will.

    That might have sounded better in the original German. Zeigen Sie uns Ihre Papiere!

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  5. ‘Vaccine passports’ are on the way, but developing them won’t be easy
    The Biden administration and private companies are working to develop a standard way of handling credentials — often referred to as “vaccine passports” — that would allow Americans to prove they have been vaccinated against the novel coronavirus as businesses try to reopen.
    ………
    The administration’s initiative has been driven largely by arms of the Department of Health and Human Services, including an office devoted to health information technology, said five officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the effort. The White House this month took on a bigger role coordinating government agencies involved in the work, led by coronavirus coordinator Jeff Zients, with a goal of announcing updates in coming days, said one official.

    The White House declined to answer questions about the passport initiative……
    ………
    The passports are expected to be free and available through applications for smartphones, which could display a scannable code similar to an airline boarding pass. Americans without smartphone access should be able to print out the passports, developers have said.
    ……..
    There is evidence vaccine passports could motivate skeptical Americans to get shots. Several vaccine-hesitant participants at a recent focus group of Trump voters led by pollster Frank Luntz suggested their desire to see family, go on vacation and resume other aspects of daily life outpaced fear of the shots, particularly if travel companies and others moved to require proof of vaccination.
    ……..

    Public health and ethics experts agreed that the Biden administration needed to strike a careful balance: Encourage shots and support the private-sector initiatives but don’t put too much federal emphasis on the looming passports.
    “If it became a government mandate, it would go down a dark road very quickly,” said Brian C. Castrucci, who leads the Bethesda, Md.-based de Beaumont Foundation, a public health group funding Luntz’s research into why some Americans are balking at the vaccine. “It becomes a credential. It becomes a ‘needing your papers,’ if you will. That could be dangerous — and it could turn off people.”

    “It has to be that everyone can get it, and it’s their choice, as it were,” said Ezekiel Emanuel, a University of Pennsylvania bioethics expert who co-authored a Journal of the American Medical Association article last year about the ethics of such certificates and advised Biden’s transition team on the coronavirus. “The one thing I am concerned is that some people won’t be able to get vaccinated for a variety of reasons.”

    Emanuel added that the passports will be an element of global travel — not just domestic policy. Key aviation and travel associations on March 22 called on the White House to finalize its vaccine credential plan by May, saying it was essential for the safe resumption of international travel.
    ……..
    Government shouldn’t mandate “vaccine credentials” but I have no problem with businesses requiring proof of inoculation to attend conferences, travel, dining, concerts, movies, mall shopping etc.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  6. I don’t recall that the concern with adulterers and Jews was that they were at a greater risk of passing on a serious contagious disease.

    Those with Hansen’s disease were unjustly discriminated against because they really weren’t particularly contagious.

    Why should anybody trust breathing the air breathed out of someone who refuses to get vaccinated? Testing would also be nice, but of course has a limited time span.

    Victor (4959fb)

  7. Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 3/30/2021 @ 1:27 pm:

    …..much like we did at one time with ……. Jews.

    Israel doesn’t seem to have a problem with it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  8. Even republicans loathe moscow mitch mcconnell.

    asset (d3f6be)

  9. I don’t recall that the concern with adulterers and Jews was that they were at a greater risk of passing on a serious contagious disease.

    The mortality rate of COVID is what… 0.5%? And most of those deaths come from those 80+ years old. Serious to some people. Yes. Serious to most – no.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  10. Why should anybody trust breathing the air breathed out of someone who refuses to get vaccinated? Testing would also be nice, but of course has a limited time span.

    Victor (4959fb) — 3/30/2021 @ 1:48 pm

    If you are outside, or in a well-ventilated area, you are fine. If you are vaccinated, you are fine. If you are not vaccinated and under the age of 80, you’ll most likely be fine.

    But if those facts don’t assuage your paranoia, then that’s on you.

    We will get to herd immunity with or without the anti-vaxxers. We don’t need a government program or social media companies tracking our vaccine status.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  11. We don’t need a government program or social media companies tracking our vaccine status.

    Feel free not to participate.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  12. New U.S. coronavirus cases rise by 13 percent; nation braces for fourth pandemic wave

    New coronavirus cases in the United States continued to rise in the past week, jumping by 13 percent nationwide, as senior officials implored Americans to stick to public health measures to help reverse the trend.

    The seven-day average of new cases topped 63,000 for the first time in nearly a month, according to data compiled by The Washington Post, while states such as Michigan, Vermont and North Dakota reported substantial spikes in new infections. The nation appeared poised for a fourth wave of illness even as vaccine eligibility is expanding in many states.

    Michigan led the nation in new cases with a 57 percent rise over the past week. The state, which relaxed covid-related restrictions earlier this month, also reported the largest increase in coronavirus hospitalizations, which grew by more than 47 percent.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  13. Breaking:

    Matt Gaetz Is Said to Be Investigated Over Possible Sexual Relationship With a Girl, 17

    Representative Matt Gaetz, Republican of Florida and a close ally of former President Donald J. Trump, is being investigated by the Justice Department over whether he had a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old and paid for her to travel with him, according to three people briefed on the matter.

    Investigators are examining whether Mr. Gaetz violated federal sex trafficking laws, the people said. A variety of federal statutes make it illegal to induce someone under 18 to travel over state lines to engage in sex in exchange for money or something of value. The Justice Department regularly prosecutes such cases, and offenders often receive severe sentences.
    …….
    The investigation was opened in the final months of the Trump administration under Attorney General William P. Barr, the two people said. Given Mr. Gaetz’s national profile, senior Justice Department officials in Washington — including some appointed by Mr. Trump — were notified of the investigation, the people said.
    …….
    Hmmmm, the above story might explain this headline:

    Matt Gaetz eyes early retirement to take job at Newsmax

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  14. It should be noted that the age of consent in Florida is 18, so Gaetz would be looking at state statutory rape charges as well.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  15. The longer story says that the investigation that was opened was targeted at an associate of Gaetz (a local official in Florida named Joel Greenberg), so it is not clear that “an investigation of Gaetz” was greenlit before Biden came in.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  16. The only person I know who has said she would not get vaccinated is not a Trump fan at all. A bit of a Karen, actually.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  17. But this proposed ‘vaccine passport’ bovine feces? Any business which asks me for proof of vaccination will not ever get my business.

    Every airline, Uber, Greyhound, supermarket, hospital, public building, sporting event….

    I have no patience with freeloaders. I hope that by the time you give in they are charging for it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. No.

    I will not comply with “vaccine passport”.

    Do ya’ll not see how Orwellian this is?

    We didn’t require it for our various bad flu seasons. Why should we implement something like this now?

    Best course of action is to encourage vaccinations, not mandate them to participate in society…

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  19. OOOps. You did say you were getting the vaccine. But still, why do you think public conveyances and other crowded places should not want to limit entry to the vaccinated? Why do you think that other people there would be OK if they allowed the unvaccinated to enter the crowded space?

    Maybe you didn’t hear: people have dies and most of us can name someone we knew who died. Ten Vietnam Wars’ worth so far.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. Best course of action is to encourage vaccinations, not mandate them to participate in society…

    Stay away from me then.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  21. But, I’ll tell you what. When you get vaccinated, they give you a vaccine proof. If you are adamant about your position against vaccine proofs, burn it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  22. Wait for the pill.

    Here’s a shot in the wallet that’s a genuine PITA instead: Shell hi-test gasoline hit $4.96/gallon today; Shell regular $4.65/gal., just outside of San Diego.

    President Plagiarist is fiddling w/a cockpit light bulb as his L-1011 is crashing into the Everglades.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  23. @7. You know what the difference is between the Mossad and the Gestapo don’t you?

    The Germans had snazzier uniforms.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  24. @23 What a vile antisemitic insult.

    Dave (1bb933)

  25. @19, @20, @21 Kevin, I’m a healthcare worker so I got my Pfizer vaccine in February.

    I have no issues taking the vaccines.

    My issue is having the government predicating my participation to society to “show my papers”.

    I say this with feeling: I will not comply with this. My state elected officials is making noise to codify against this and fight any federal mandates.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  26. @25 Not to mention, it flies in the face of current HIPPA laws too. I don’t see this passport standing up in courts.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  27. My issue is having the government predicating my participation to society to “show my papers”.

    I agree, government should not mandate “vaccine passports.” But businesses just might.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  28. I say this with feeling: I will not comply with this. My state elected officials is making noise to codify against this and fight any federal mandates.

    Not enough dead people for you yet?

    Dave (1bb933)

  29. @19

    OOOps. You did say you were getting the vaccine. But still, why do you think public conveyances and other crowded places should not want to limit entry to the vaccinated? Why do you think that other people there would be OK if they allowed the unvaccinated to enter the crowded space?

    Maybe you didn’t hear: people have dies and most of us can name someone we knew who died. Ten Vietnam Wars’ worth so far.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/30/2021 @ 3:32 pm

    I wasn’t going to explicitly respond to this, but this infuriated me.

    I lost family members to COVID.

    I also lost family members to the bloody flu.

    Hell, my wife’s family got hit in our lifetime with 3 family members getting hit Guillain-Barré with my wife’s grandfather being paralyzed from the neck down. So, I literally have family in my circles who SHOULD NOT take any vaccines because of this, so its doubly important that others around them whom are not at risks to take any vaccines.

    But we don’t ask to see if other folks have “their papers” updated in order for us to participate in society.

    At some point, you need to take a leap of faith that enough folks are taking the vaccines to achieve herd immunity. Because, not everyone can take the vaccine.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  30. @28 Dave… bless your heart.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  31. @27

    My issue is having the government predicating my participation to society to “show my papers”.

    I agree, government should not mandate “vaccine passports.” But businesses just might.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2021 @ 3:55 pm

    And I will not patron those establishments.

    This will create a divide that I don’t think we can survive as a society.

    Furthermore, the CDC reiterated that those who are vaccinated are not carriers and would likely not see re-infection.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  32. The Gestapo did not have uniforms. They were secret police. It’s right there in the name. Geheime Staatspolizei. Secret State Police.

    @23 What a vile antisemitic insult.

    Maybe it is, and maybe it isn’t, but in either case it’s deserved. The Mossad are the death squads, as well as the spies, saboteurs, thieves, and torturers, of an apartheid, theocratic, nationalist, socialist, militarized, police state. The only thing that prevents Israel from acquiring full fascist credentials is that so far no more than around 30% of Israelis have ever agreed on one political party.

    nk (1d9030)

  33. Feel free not to participate.
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2021 @ 2:30 pm

    LOL. Spoken like a true woke liberal. Let me guess: I should buy my own plane, start my own bank, and open my own movie theater.

    But hey you pastry chefs out there – bake that cake.

    I agree, government should not mandate “vaccine passports.” But businesses just might.
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2021 @ 3:55 pm

    HIPPA laws apply to any business that provides a health care plan.

    Glad so many people here are fond of a program that mirrors – almost to a tee – a program that China uses to monitor its citizens.

    Hoi Polloi (b28058)

  34. @32. Yep. Black goes with everything, dahling. Besides, our white socks and sandals man is hardly a fashionista 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  35. Feel free not to participate.
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2021 @ 2:30 pm

    LOL. Spoken like a true woke liberal. Let me guess: I should buy my own plane, start my own bank, and open my own movie theater.

    But hey you pastry chefs out there – bake that cake.

    I agree, government should not mandate “vaccine passports.” But businesses just might.
    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 3/30/2021 @ 3:55 pm

    HIPPA laws apply to any business that provides a health care plan.

    My is a more libertarianish view, where people are free to make their own choices. Some people have a problem with vaccines per se or vaccine passports. Others see them as a way to get back to normal life or (in the case of businesses) avoid liability. I doubt HIPPA is a barrier, it would only apply to employees, not customers. There are other means of travel (by car), online banking, and streaming that are easier options than “buying my own plane, etc.”.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. Mr M wrote, I believe addressing me:

    OOOps. You did say you were getting the vaccine. But still, why do you think public conveyances and other crowded places should not want to limit entry to the vaccinated? Why do you think that other people there would be OK if they allowed the unvaccinated to enter the crowded space?

    Given that none of the vaccines have yet been approved for children, I suppose that you will limit yourself solely to those spaces in which minors may not be present.

    You have just given us your approval for other people to have a glimpse into our personal medical records. If you believe that this is acceptable for COVID-19, for what other conditions do you believe the public have a right to know about your health status. Heck, I’m old enough to remember when there were suggestions that people with AIDS should be publicly identified, perhaps even with a tattoo.

    For what other disease do we demand a person to carry with him a certificate allowing him to enter a pubic place? And if you have been vaccinated, which I assume will be the case before any of these vaccine passport ideas can be rolled out, why would you care if someone else is not?

    Remember: we long ago defined virtually all businesses as public accommodations, making it illegal to deny entry and service on the basis of race. Do you think we can then allow these public accommodations to deny entry and service because someone doesn’t have, or declines to show, his vaccine passport?

    Many of the commenters here are attorneys, who certainly understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty; the notion that we would need a vaccine passport to enter an otherwise public place presumes guilt, that a person is carrying the virus if he hasn’t been vaccinated.

    Will you have to update your vaccine passport? The Washington Post noted just yesterday that we do not know for how long the vaccine will be effective:

    But based on clinical trials, experts do know that vaccine-induced protection should last a minimum of about three months. That does not mean protective immunity will expire after 90 days; that was simply the time frame participants were studied in the initial Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson trials. As researchers continue to study the vaccines, that shelf life is expected to grow.

    In the real world, the protection should last quite a bit longer, though the length of time still needs to be determined with further studies, experts said. . . . .

    Immunity could also depend on what happens with future variants. If a person were exposed to a variant capable of evading vaccine-induced antibodies, for instance, a vaccine might not be as effective as initially expected, said Lana Dbeibo, an infectious-disease expert at the Indiana University School of Medicine.

    Although researchers do not yet have all the answers, previous knowledge of other coronaviruses, as well as emerging research about the current strain, may provide clues.

    Looking at studies on natural immunity from the coronavirus, experts hypothesize that protective immunity from the vaccines will last at least six to eight months. And if immunity from SARS-CoV-2 ends up being similar to other seasonal coronaviruses, such as “common colds,” it is even possible the vaccines could provide protection for up to a year or two before requiring a booster, the experts said.

    So, what? Should we have to have our booster shot record on the passports as well? How often? Six to eight months? Maybe up to two years?

    But, what the Hell, it’s only one more bit, one tiny little bit, of government control over our individual lives, right?

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  37. I agree, government should not mandate “vaccine passports.” But businesses just might.

    Just might be likely; Airlines: ‘Beginning October 1, 2021, every air traveler 18 years of age and older will need a REAL ID-compliant driver’s license, state-issued enhanced driver’s license, or another acceptable form of ID to fly within the United States. Check for the star. REAL ID-compliant cards are marked with a star at the top of the card.’- source, tsa.gov

    President Plagiarist is as old as a first print of 1942’s Casablanca … so the idea of another layer of ‘papers, please’ is fairly arcane. Unless he’s more Amerikan than American.

    When I was in Soviet Russia back in the day, a sergeant of the USMC detachment a top the U.S. Embassy in Moscow told me they were required to fill out papers and obtain a temporary travel permit– ‘papers, please’ – from Soviet officials if they wanted to go further than a 7 mile radius from the embassy compound within the city.

    Police state mission creep is growing…

    And Putin smiled.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  38. Given the Real ID Act was passed in 2005, it’s hard to blame President Biden for it. Blame George Bush.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  39. Well, I think that at the very least people should have either a Covid passport or a PCR test within the last 72 hours before they can give water to people waiting in line for ten hours to vote if they want Governor Cuomo to kiss them.

    nk (1d9030)

  40. Please, guys. It’s HIPAA, not HIPPA.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  41. @38. ‘It’s Nixon’s War now.” One can blame a lot on a 2005 Dubya but action this day is on 2021 President Plagiarist’s plate now. He can rescind, delay, issue another famed EO… but befuddlement and in action are his hallmarks.

    As he’s not really all there, so when he’s gone, he won’t be missed.

    The Carter family is joyous… and Hoover family is all smiles.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  42. ……I suppose that you will limit yourself solely to those spaces in which minors may not be present.

    I’d be more than happy to.

    For what other disease do we demand a person to carry with him a certificate allowing him to enter a pub[l]ic place? And if you have been vaccinated, which I assume will be the case before any of these vaccine passport ideas can be rolled out, why would you care if someone else is not?

    I don’t personally care if someone is vaccinated or not, but if a business wants to limit its clientele to people who are, in order to avoid liability (and businesses can require their employees to be poked), I have a choice either to prove to them I have been vaccinated and patronize their business, or not prove it and not patronize. Given the contagiousness of COVID-19 and its variants, I would rather not share a movie theater, concert, or lecture hall with someone who has not been poked.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  43. @39. A Wet kiss??? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  44. If memory serves, back in the day late 50s/early 60s, kids were ‘required’ to be vaccinated against the prevailing bugs of the day to attend public schools. And that was when they’d use what looked like =ouch= phonograph needles.

    If you don’t know what phonograph needles are, ask President Plagiarist. He suggested using a record player nightly.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  45. Satisfaction With U.S. Vaccine Rollout Surges to 68%
    …….
    Satisfaction with the COVID-19 vaccine process has doubled since January and is now at the majority-level among all major demographic subgroups. It is particularly high among adults aged 65 and older (77%), a group that has been prioritized for vaccines, those who have received at least one vaccine dose (75%) and Democrats (73%), whose satisfaction has more than tripled since President Joe Biden took office.
    ……
    ……Republicans’ satisfaction, which was higher than Democrats’ in January just after Trump left office, has increased 17 points to 66% since then.
    ……
    With more than a million Americans receiving COVID-19 vaccines every day, the public’s overall willingness to be inoculated against the disease has edged up three points. This continues the upward trajectory to a new high of 74% since hitting a low of 50% in September.
    …….
    Asked for the main reason behind their reluctance to be immunized, those who are unwilling to receive a COVID-19 vaccine are most likely to say they say they want to wait and confirm it is safe (23%) or do not think the health effects from the disease would be serious if they contracted it (20%). Additionally, 16% are concerned about the speed with which the vaccine was developed, 15% do not trust vaccines in general, 10% say they already have COVID-19 antibodies due to having the disease, 9% are concerned about having an allergic reaction to the shot and 7% prefer to wait and see how effective it is in preventing the disease.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  46. 14.It should be noted that the age of consent in Florida is 18, so Gaetz would be looking at state statutory rape charges as well.

    Is “I was drunk and driving her across state lines” a viable defense? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  47. Isn’t it the case that vaccinated people can carry and transmit the virus to others, even though the transmitter doesn’t get sick? If that’s the case, what’s all the fuss about? Let the vaccinated and the unvaccinated mingle, and the problem will sort itself out.

    norcal (01e272)

  48. Making people wait in line — just wait in line — for ID, or a Covid passport, or to vote, or some rancid jagoff putting his hands and mouth on women as he pleases, is all part and parcel of keeping the proles in place. (We can talk about making them their change the time on their clocks twice a year some other time.)

    nk (1d9030)

  49. (We can talk about making them their change the time on their clocks twice a year some other time.)

    What if I want to talk about it now?

    norcal (01e272)

  50. Isn’t it the case that vaccinated people can carry and transmit the virus to others, even though the transmitter doesn’t get sick?

    Vaccinated People Can Get Covid, but It’s Most Likely Very Rare
    ……..
    In the next few months, Pfizer and Moderna are expected to release data that should indicate how often vaccinated people become infected by the virus, even if they have no symptoms. The companies have been testing participants in their vaccine trials for antibodies to a protein called N that is part of the coronavirus but not part of the vaccine. Finding those antibodies means that a vaccinated person has been infected by the virus. Some volunteers from the studies are also having their noses swabbed regularly to test for an active viral infection.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  51. What if I want to talk about it now?

    Go right ahead.

    nk (1d9030)

  52. I’m conflicted. I don’t think forcing people to show their health records to go to the movies is a good idea. At the same time I’m bloody tired of the rest of us having to suffer because unvaccinated irresponsible SOBs insist on socializing indoors with large groups of people, unmasked and possibly becoming disease vectors and I want them to suffer “Ha Ha, now you have to stay home and the rest of us can have fun”. That’s probably not the best basis for economic or governmental policy though.

    Nic (896fdf)

  53. G. Gordon Liddy (90) has died.

    Rip Murdock (d6b59b)

  54. @19, @20, @21 Kevin, I’m a healthcare worker so I got my Pfizer vaccine in February.

    Yeah, whembly (and Dana in KY), I overreacted and I’m sorry.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  55. Not to mention, it flies in the face of current HIPPA laws too.

    I don’t think so. HIPPA requires your providers to protect your data, unless you authorize its release. Which you pretty much have to do at times, since otherwise insurance carriers won’t write you a policy.

    You don’t HAVE to have a vaccine passport, but then you don’t HAVE to fly on United Airlines either. It’s not clear to me whether an airline that demanded such passports, at least in the near term, would do worse than an airline that did not.

    Crossing international borders, entering some buildings, taking a train, renting a car or a hotel room, all of these might require such a show-me.

    Heck, right now you cannot enter Hawaii without a showing of health. Pretty sure this has been challenged and lost.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. B.I.H. G. Gordon Liddy. Not dead enough at 90.

    Criminal. Crook. Anti-American. Watergate conspirator.

    The flames of Hell burn for eternity; but then, ‘the trick is not minding,’ eh, Gordon.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. You have just given us your approval for other people to have a glimpse into our personal medical records.

    Again, nothing of the sort. At least no more than I demand that you show your medical records to your health or life insurance company. Of course you might have trouble getting insured if you don’t, or have to pay more.

    We have a situation where a sizable percentage of people refuse to be vaccinated and logic is not among their motives. This level of social irresponsibility is akin to drunk driving in the danger it poses for others.

    I lost two friends, one a life-long friend, in the first month of this thing. Both were younger than me and probably in better health. I have another friend whose life has been destroyed. She survived but is now in a nursing home forever. I have no interest in this thing at all.

    Had the Trumpies not been so adamant in refusing to deal with this, maybe businesses wouldn’t view this as a problem for them, but they do. None of them will want to stand up in court and say “Sure, we let anybody on our airplane, it’s not our problem anyone got sick and died.”

    If these “passports” are widely required, it will be because there IS no herd immunity due to these clowns.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  58. When I get on an airplane a government employee goes through my baggage. I think the privacy bus already left.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. Vaccinated People Can Get Covid, but It’s Most Likely Very Rare

    Of course they can. People can have Covid twice, too. All a vaccine does is harden the target, making it possible for the immune system to respond quickly, before the virus gets a foothold.

    Some people, particularly those without a working immune system, do not greatly benefit from the vaccine. Those are the people who MUST rely on herd immunity, and they can so long as not-too-many others aren’t trying to freeload.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  60. Wear a mask or get mandatory shot[s]– choose the mask; wait for the pill.

    Eventually, everything in America is available via tablet. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  61. But look at this another way:

    For a very long time people are talked about a national ID card. Probably with biometric and other information to make it hard to forge. And of course it has never happened because too many interest don’t want it. Libertarians, privacy advocates, illegal immigrants, criminals, deadbeat dads, otehr types of fugitives, and a handful of cantankerous objectors.

    Still, we now need a state-issued, federally-approved ID to get on a plane after the TSA has rummaged through our things. The argument I see here is NOT between a “vaccine passport” and no such thing, but between a actual national ID with far too much OTHER information added (“never let a crisis go to waste”) or some temporary piece of paper for the next year or so.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  62. Eventually, everything in America is available via tablet.

    I am pretty sure sex is not available by tablet.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  63. *HAVE talked

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. @62. Depends on if you use Android or go ull I-Pad and which massage service is listed.

    ‘Eventually’ you stroke the right key. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  65. Many of the commenters here are attorneys, who certainly understand the concept of innocent until proven guilty; the notion that we would need a vaccine passport to enter an otherwise public place presumes guilt, that a person is carrying the virus if he hasn’t been vaccinated.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836) — 3/30/2021 @ 4:39 pm

    Sorry, but that’s silly. Innocent until proven guilty applies only to the subject’s criminality, and only inside the criminal justice system. Requiring vaccine passports involves neither a criminal proceeding nor the presumption of criminality.

    lurker (59504c)

  66. Requiring vaccine passports involves neither a criminal proceeding nor the presumption of criminality.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhIPvEanMg

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiQL71kV4t8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQpTNuLiA8k

    Tip; don’t Bogart the joint by hiding the Letters of Transit in Sam’s piano.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  67. Biden’s dog Major bites again at White House

    news.yahoo.com/bidens-dog-major-second-biting…

    The Bidens’ dog Major has nipped again, just days after returning from training in Delaware for a biting incident at the White House earlier this month. A spokesman for First Lady Jill Biden said that “out of an abundance of caution” the individual who was bitten was seen by the White House medical unit before returning to work.

    Somebody there needs shots for sure.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  68. Ah, shaddap! We’ve got to live with each other and if it takes vaccine passports, we’ll get vaccine passports. Or if the Democrats need a new agency to provide government jobs for their campaign volunteers and bundlers.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. @68. Really?

    In the UK we were required to carry our ‘papers’ – including medical booklet- and produce them on the spot when the authorities demanded to see them. Had to do the ‘papers please’ thing four times for the Metropolitan Police on the streets of London in my time living in ‘Socialist UK’.

    ‘England swings like a pendulum do. Bobbies on Bicycles, two by two. Westminster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben. The rosy RED cheeks of the little children.’ – Roger Miller ‘England Swings’ 1965 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  70. What if I want to talk about it now?

    Go right ahead.

    nk (1d9030) — 3/30/2021 @ 5:44 pm

    I hate changing the time. Pick one (preferably DST) and stick to it. That approach seems to work for places as varied as Arizona, Hawaii, Japan, China, India, etc.

    Alas, in the U.S. there is a constituency for changing the time.

    In fact, there is a constituency for all kinds of ridiculous things. We can’t even do away with the penny, even though inflation has eaten away at the currency so much that dimes have less purchasing power now than pennies did 70 years ago.

    norcal (01e272)

  71. What right do the gestapo LAPD have to demand my papers at a traffic stop? First let them prove I don’t have a valid license and registration. Then we can talk. And what’s with the storm troopers at Dodger Stadium insisting I show them my tickets before they’ll let me watch a ballgame? Where do they get off treating me like a crook who would sneak in without paying?

    lurker (59504c)

  72. What is the conservative position on sex trafficking underage girls? Even tucker carlson kept asking gaetz what does your accusation of extortion by trump official to make your sex trafficking public have to do with your sex trafficking minors?

    asset (377581)

  73. Just a reminder that these treatments have still only been approved on an emergency basis.

    So many just demand everyone else submit to their will or else.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  74. What is the conservative position on sex trafficking underage girls? Even tucker carlson kept asking gaetz what does your accusation of extortion by trump official to make your sex trafficking public have to do with your sex trafficking minors?

    I read Gaetz’s “conspiracies inside conspiracies” response.

    The QAnon doofusses will eat it up.

    Dave (1bb933)

  75. Not being Republican is a wonderful way to live.

    mg (8cbc69)

  76. Just a reminder that these treatments have still only been approved on an emergency basis.

    So many just demand everyone else submit to their will or else.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 3/30/2021 @ 10:25 pm

    Thanks for the reminder. Before consenting to receive the vaccine, a person should read the EUA for each vaccine. Consent needs to be informed. According to the EUA, receiving the vaccine is a choice, and not a mandate.

    Chris (3d25b0)

  77. 72, come on, that’s the “douche-y guy under 55*’ bracket of the 2024 Republican primary playing itself out in real time.

    *to accommodate the younger looking but 51 yo TC

    urbanleftbehind (aedb2c)

  78. From the NYT article linked at 13:

    The three people said that the examination of Mr. Gaetz, 38, is part of a broader investigation into a political ally of his, a local official in Florida named Joel Greenberg, who was indicted last summer on an array of charges, including sex trafficking of a child and financially supporting people in exchange for sex, at least one of whom was an underage girl.

    If the bolded part is now a federal crime ….

    nk (1d9030)

  79. Nic wrote:

    I’m conflicted. I don’t think forcing people to show their health records to go to the movies is a good idea. At the same time I’m bloody tired of the rest of us having to suffer because unvaccinated irresponsible SOBs insist on socializing indoors with large groups of people, unmasked and possibly becoming disease vectors and I want them to suffer “Ha Ha, now you have to stay home and the rest of us can have fun”. That’s probably not the best basis for economic or governmental policy though.

    Nope, it isn’t.

    If you force a dog to live at the end of a chain — and if you do, you should be destined for the lowest level of Hell, but this is just for an example — the poor creature becomes used to it. If you go out and pet the dog, give him some affection every day, he’s grateful, but doesn’t really notice that you’ve removed one link of the chain each time. His life chain gets shorter and shorter, but just by an inch, every day, and he’s ever so much more grateful for the few minutes you spend with him every day, but his life still becomes more and more restricted, more and more miserable.

    As you leave his chained in area for the other 23 hours and 55 minutes of the day, maybe you don’t notice the misery you have inflicted on the dog, so, what the Hell, it isn’t your concern, is it?

    That’s what these vaccine passports are; just one more link removed from the chain.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  80. Mr M wrote:

    Yeah, whembly (and Dana in KY), I overreacted and I’m sorry.

    Noted and appreciated.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  81. DCSCA wrote:

    B.I.H. G. Gordon Liddy. Not dead enough at 90.

    Criminal. Crook. Anti-American. Watergate conspirator.

    The flames of Hell burn for eternity; but then, ‘the trick is not minding,’ eh, Gordon.

    So, is it Christian, which I assume you are if you believe in Hell, to wish that someone else be condemned there?

    “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who have trespassed against us,” some guy told us to pray.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  82. Mr M wrote:

    If these “passports” are widely required, it will be because there IS no herd immunity due to these clowns.

    And ‘herd immunity’ will be officially achieved when? Dr Fauxi originally told us 70%, then he upped it to 80% then 85%, making it obvious that nobody knows when the f(ornicate) that will actually be.

    Of course, it won’t be ‘science’ which tells us when that happens, but some politician deciding. Knowing the control ’em all mentality of the Democrats, and the fact that variants are occurring, just when do you believe that the Patricians will relieve us plebeians from such a requirement?

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  83. The situation with Matt Gaetz simply proves the wisdom of the Billy Graham/Mike Pence rule. Whether he actually had sex with an underaged girl is almost beside the point, at least politically. If he put himself in situations in which such an accusation is credible, he’s not just toast, but toast which fell on the floor, buttered side down.

    He could be tried and acquitted, but there will always be people who will believe that he is guilty as sin.

    Roy Moore was unavailable for comment.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  84. If you force a dog to live at the end of a chain ….

    Ain’t it the truth! Take clothes, for instance. First, they make you wear pants. Then they make you wear underwear. Then they make you wear socks. Then they make you wear a shirt. Then you have to wear an undershirt. A jacket and tie follow. To make a long story short, you can’t go to your own wedding without a tuxedo, stiff collar and fancy tie, and smelling like bee-bait.

    Is that what God intended when he made Adam and Eve? No! Freedom!

    nk (1d9030)

  85. The way vaccine passports will develop is this:

    1. Under Federal law, Employers, businesses, etc will generally not be allowed to exclude anyone from place of business. However, they can require that a person present proof of vaccination to be admitted.

    2. The government will dictate the form of the proof of vaccination. There will likely be some excuse form for people who cannot be vaccinated

    3. Local governments (or HR departments) will use their own judgment on whether they will require this “passport” to be admitted. The devil won’t be admission to restaurants or concerts, but what hr will be allowed to require before a person comes into the office, and mandates around working from home vs having to come to the office and the need for the vaccine passport.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  86. Could vaccine passports be used as voter ID?

    nk (1d9030)

  87. youre a very bad person mr nk

    Dave (1bb933)

  88. @57 Yeah, whembly (and Dana in KY), I overreacted and I’m sorry.

    I appreciate that Kevin.

    I don’t mind have some IDs for very specific things for specific reasons. Like using IDs to purchase alcohol, or opening a bank account, or to vote, or all the other day-to-day stuff.

    However, a “vaccine passport” is a bridge to far because its way more intrusive and provides the government (and businesses!) that hook to expand that paradigm of such system. I worry that it’ll be abused in the “show your papers” way in the public.

    Viruses and infections has always been passengers in human life. We’re no where near eradicating all of them. The best defense is for the population to take advantage of vaccines in such large numbers to achieve herd immunity. The larger question is this – how do we ensure that enough people will take this vaccine to achieve this herd immunity? We need to be judicious and careful as to how we answer this.

    Now, here’s where PART of my objection to the idea of passport immunity that really gets me riled up – The Anti-Vaxxer crowd will latch onto this and use it to further their agenda. It’s a legit ethical/legal issue and being on the “right side” of this also strengthens their anti-vaxxer positions. And that really worries me.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  89. Off-topic: John Durham still doing what he does best, spending taxpayer money and finding nothing

    Durham’s investigation has now gone on longer than Mueller’s, and uncovered zero suspected crimes (Clinesmith was caught, and delivered gift-wrapped, by FBI’s own investigation).

    Dave (1bb933)

  90. It seems to me, Mr. Dave, that with March Madness (such as it is this year) winding down, the Inner Party needs something else to keep the proles distracted. Honestly, “vaccine passports” demonstrate a lack of imagination on the Party’s part more than they do anything else. Like the retail, travel, and hospitality industries are going to turn away (as of right now) 85% of their customers for not having one.

    nk (1d9030)

  91. I don’t mind have some IDs for very specific things for specific reasons. Like using IDs to purchase alcohol, or opening a bank account, or to vote, or all the other day-to-day stuff.

    But defeating a pandemic that’s killed over half a million of us in barely a year (and greatly restricted our freedom to go about our lives in too many ways to count) is “a bridge too far”?

    Complete failure of common sense.

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. On a personal note, I have lost track of the number of dorm lockdowns at my daughter’s college, and I care more about my car’s tire pressure and engine oil levels when I drive to bring her home for the two-week quarantines than I do about half-baked, selective — make that very selective — libertarianism.

    nk (1d9030)

  93. Comrade Allahpundit (who is the worst sort of right-deviationist running dog, but nevertheless an astute observer of party dynamics) advanced a similar theory, Comrade nk.

    But the vaccine passports will not arrive until the rate of vaccination is considerably higher.

    Right-thinking comrades will of course be eager to do their patriotic duty for the motherland, and the party knows how to deal with wreckers and hooligans.

    Dave (1bb933)

  94. @91

    I don’t mind have some IDs for very specific things for specific reasons. Like using IDs to purchase alcohol, or opening a bank account, or to vote, or all the other day-to-day stuff.

    But defeating a pandemic that’s killed over half a million of us in barely a year (and greatly restricted our freedom to go about our lives in too many ways to count) is “a bridge too far”?

    Complete failure of common sense.

    Dave (1bb933) — 3/31/2021 @ 7:20 am

    Show your papers Dave. Oh, pick up the can comrade.

    whembly (867f2f)

  95. whembly —

    If I come into the doctor’s office or the clinic or the hospital, I would like to think I am not in a place where the COVID anti-vax thing is tolerated. So I don’t mind having your HR empowered to deal with it.

    Given that we are looking at a number of deaths that exceed most of our wars, I don’t mind some wartime kind of restrictions to put an end to this thing.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  96. @95

    whembly —

    If I come into the doctor’s office or the clinic or the hospital, I would like to think I am not in a place where the COVID anti-vax thing is tolerated. So I don’t mind having your HR empowered to deal with it.

    Given that we are looking at a number of deaths that exceed most of our wars, I don’t mind some wartime kind of restrictions to put an end to this thing.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 3/31/2021 @ 7:54 am

    Again, I work in healthcare. The covid vaccine wasn’t mandated but was strenuously encouraged. The flu vaccine, however, I’m required to take it as a condition of my employment. I remember when taking the flu started to be a requirement, we lost some people because they refused to take it and didn’t have a good reason for such refusal (ie, religion or hereditary). But, my healthcare organization had a VERY good reason for such mandate – that was the desired to reduce the “hospital acquired” flu infection. It’s a mindset that as hospital employees, we’re taking our patient’s health a priority.

    I’m okay with employees being mandated (with narrow exemptions of course) by their employers to be vaccinated (flu or covid). I draw the line of extending such mandate to the public in the manner of a government sponsored “passport”.

    The are OTHER ways to encourage public vaccinations.

    Having said that, aren’t we already on “war footing”? With the lockdowns, distancing and mask mandates???

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  97. Whembly, how would you feel about a rule requiring noncitizens who come here on tourist visas to show proof of vaccination for entry to the country?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  98. The Dana in Kentucky (88b836) — 3/31/2021 @ 6:10 am

    If he put himself in situations in which such an accusation is credible, he’s not just toast, but toast which fell on the floor, buttered side down.

    Matt Goetz seems to be claiming that it is connected with the extortion attempt n his father in March a year ago, which was recorded with the equipment of and on the advice of the FBI, but which he family did not retain a copy (because it was not legal to make it in that state outside of a criminal investigation?) in which $25 million ($25 million!?) was demanded by someone who ad previously worked at DOJ to make allegations go away.

    Matt Goetz says he has travel records which provide an alibi for the accusations. That is, he was not in the situation that is being investigated.

    Of course somebody had to break the law to leak anything about this.

    He’s asking DOJ to release the recording.

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  99. What is the conservative position on sex trafficking underage girls? Even tucker carlson kept asking gaetz what does your accusation of extortion by trump official to make your sex trafficking public have to do with your sex trafficking minors?

    If the charges are false — if they are relying on the girl’s word and she’s lying — then yes, it’s extortion and no, it isn’t sex trafficking.

    I really don’t care about Gaetz, since he’s a Trumpian stooge, but I do care about people not being tried in the press, instead of a court where facts matter more.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. Just a reminder that these treatments have still only been approved on an emergency basis.

    This is largely because the sclerotic FDA process has needed fixing for some time, and the bureaucratic band-aid to avoid fixing it was this “compassionate use” policy.

    We judge 21st century medicine by procedures put into place before DNA was even a thing.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  101. And ‘herd immunity’ will be officially achieved when?

    When the disease is no longer being contracted. When HIV patients, to whom Covid-19 is almost certain death, don’t have to remain indoors. When old people feel fine about going on cruises again.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  102. Even Tucker Carlson called Gaetz’s explanation “weird”. And colleagues have described Gaetz as the “meanest man in politics” so when some bad news hits and you have no friends, you are left twisting in the wind.

    One former senior Trump White House aide was on multiple text chains with former colleagues gossiping about the deluge of news about Gaetz’s legal predicament.

    The former Trump aides aren’t necessarily happy to see the three-term lawmaker in trouble, but they “feel a little vindicated,” the former White House staffer told Insider. “He’s the meanest person in politics.”
    ……..
    “Republican leadership will likely watch him completely implode in a matter of days without having to do a thing,” the observer told Insider. Stripping him of committee assignments or taking other punitive steps “would require more action from the Justice Department.”

    “Good riddance,” said another former Trump White House aide. “It sounds like he let whatever BS power he thought he had go to his head and he thought himself above the law.”

    “The congressman is one of those that came to Washington to make an impression for fame and fortune rather than accomplishing anything in Washington for his constituents,” said a national Republican campaign consultant who plays in Florida politics.

    “Matt is going to have a popularity problem now, and may just fade into obscurity. No one will want to associate with him until there’s a resolution — which probably won’t be favorable,” the Republican consultant added.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  103. government sponsored “passport”

    AIUI, the idea of a government “passport” is to avoid having 47 different privately-sourced passports of varying authenticity. That isn’t to say the statists won’t try to use this to get computer-readable fingerprints, retina images or DNA sequences into the card (and their databases), but the idea of a consolidated and temporary vaccination record is not a bad one.

    Still, I’d be more comfortable if it was privately sponsored. It would probably work better and be more accurate that way, too. Maybe VISA or Amex could do it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  104. And colleagues have described Gaetz as the “meanest man in politics”

    When asked whether she could accept losing the crown to Gaetz, Maxine Waters responded, “I am not a man.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. Whembly, how would you feel about a rule requiring noncitizens who come here on tourist visas to show proof of vaccination for entry to the country?

    I am in the process of organizing an international conference in Los Angeles in September. Last year’s was cancelled, of course. This is a big issue, as is the EU’s total incompetence in getting people vaccinated.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  106. @DanaIK@79 OTOH, if the dog keeps hurting people, it can’t be let to roam around freely either.

    Nic (896fdf)

  107. @81. Bull. That bastard poured fuel on the flames that accelerated the collapse of ‘faith’ in our institutions.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  108. At one time, you had to show proof of smallpox vaccination for international travel, and I seem to recall freedom from Tb to emigrate to the US. Proof of yellow fever vaccination is required to travel to many places in South America.

    Fred (d109df)

  109. @97

    Whembly, how would you feel about a rule requiring noncitizens who come here on tourist visas to show proof of vaccination for entry to the country?

    aphrael (4c4719) — 3/31/2021 @ 9:22 am

    I honestly don’t know how practical that is.

    We do this when inspecting livestock though, but from a pragmatic perspective I’m not sure how effective or enforceable such policy can be on people. To be sure, the government does have emergency powers to restrict immigration based on pandemic outbreak. But that power seems to be a blunt instrument that’s tailored to whether or not you’ve been to “x” places that was shown to have outbreaks.

    whembly (6c6692)

  110. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/us/politics/matt-gaetz-sex-trafficking-investigation.html

    It started with an investigation of a friend and ally of Matt Gaetz, Joel Greenberg, whom Gaetz helped in his political career, which is now over. They apparently went back some time before 2017. He was several years younger than Matt Gaetz.,

    Joel Greenberg maintained ties to a number of bad people, and the investigation started over the question of him trying to create false charges against political rivals, and there was one in particular who was a focus of the investigation. He had sent an anonymous letter to the school where one potential candidate worked that made unfounded accusations of sexual misconduct with a student and made similar claims on a fake Facebook account.

    Not to mention taking control of the office by firing three people, and – it’s not clear when this was found out – spending county money on various quirky things like guns, ammunition, body armor and a drone, and even extra computers which he used for generating or starting a cryptocurrency. (not clear from the story.)

    As a result of this investigation, Joel Greenberg’s phone and laptop were seized. Then they discovered that Joel Greenberg was creating fake identification cards for himself and a teenage girl, and was experimenting with holograms used on permits for concealed firearms. As tax collector in Seminole County, to which he had been elected in November, 2016, he had authority to issue some kinds of licenses.

    Joel Greenberg was indicted on sex trafficking charges. Giving anything of benefit to someone under 18 whose travel across a state line was arranged for in exchange for sex is a not infrequently prosecuted federal crime and convictions result in heavy sentences.

    From this they found out that Gaetz had also paid for trips that crossed state lines and hotel rooms for women. Gaetz insists all the women he dated – and was sometimes very generous to – were of age. He seems to have known a 17 year old woman but says he did not have a sexual relationship with her and wasn’t with her on trips it was alleged he was.

    Gaetz’ personal life attracted a little attention before. He is sort of a father to a 19-year old boy whom he met seven years ago when he was dating his sister (the boy’s sister) They were from Cuba.

    He is now engaged to a woman 12 years younger than he is, (38 versus 26) whom he proposed to at Mar-a-Lago on Dec. 30, 2020.

    Meanwhile, Joel Greenberg had his bail revoked for violating its terms. He resigned from his office and gave up his campaign for re-election the day after he was indicted last June.

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  111. Rush Limbaugh was on the radio today speaking against vaccination proofs (from last year)

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  112. Appalled wrote:

    If I come into the doctor’s office or the clinic or the hospital, I would like to think I am not in a place where the COVID anti-vax thing is tolerated. So I don’t mind having your HR empowered to deal with it.

    That’s about the worst example you could have given! A hospital or clinic would be where a sick person went for treatment. Are you saying that a sick person has to prove he took the vaccine to be treated?

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  113. Mr M wrote:

    And ‘herd immunity’ will be officially achieved when?

    When the disease is no longer being contracted.

    Really? You have just set ‘herd immunity’ at zero cases! That’s a forever lockdown.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  114. Nic wrote:

    @DanaIK@79 OTOH, if the dog keeps hurting people, it can’t be let to roam around freely either.

    Ahhh, but you are assuming that a particular person who isn’t carrying a ‘vaccine passport’ has been hurting people. We don’t chain up people who haven’t committed crimes, who haven’t been hurting people.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  115. nk (1d9030) — 3/31/2021 @ 6:25 am

    Betazid weddings for all!

    felipe (484255)

  116. felipe wrote:

    Betazid weddings for all!

    Given the purpose of the ceremony, that actually makes some sense, but remember: not all brides look like Deanna Troi, and some grooms will look like, well, me!

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  117. It costs about $200 to get a forged proof of U.S. vaccination, I read. These vaccine passports may work so long as nobody takes them too seriously or makes them too important.

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  118. 113. The Dana in Kentucky (88b83

    You have just set ‘herd immunity’ at zero cases! That’s a forever lockdown.

    It works for measles.

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  119. 105. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/31/2021 @ 10:04 am

    , as is the EU’s total incompetence in getting people vaccinated.

    Too much planning, and an attempt to avoid over ordering vaccines and economizing in other ways.

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  120. @118

    113. The Dana in Kentucky (88b83
    You have just set ‘herd immunity’ at zero cases! That’s a forever lockdown.
    It works for measles.

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4) — 3/31/2021 @ 3:23 pm

    Not really. We still have measles cases even in the US.

    It’s just not at the “pandemic” state… which, is due to the herd immunity.

    We should reach heard immunity by as early as mid-summer.

    whembly (ae0eb5)

  121. Dana (Kentucky version)

    I was thinking of employees of the hospital/clinic, not patients. I think these “passports” will have a role in determining whether employees can come back into the office.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  122. Music festivals are one of my favorite form of entertainment. They are large crowd events, often running at more than 75K people, sometimes running at up to 125K people. Social distancing isn’t a thing.

    I assume that any festivals which happen this year will require attendees to either test negative on an onsite rapid test or have proof of vaccination. I assume that *insurance* will insist on it.

    So I look at a lot of the other instances of proof of vaccine requirements and think it could very well be driven by the insurers, not the companies themselves. Would you want to insure someone against a lawsuit alleging that a customer caught covid at an establishment, unless the establishment could point to backdrop policies like vaccination requirements which could establish that they weren’t negligent?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  123. I’m really curious how Trump supporters here would have reacted to practical social distancing measures, including masks if Trump had pushed them from Day 1 and led by example. And, then how would they have responded if he had flooded the airwaves and social media with appeals to get the vaccine as soon as it was available?

    I just don’t understand how Americans trust him on COVID-19 more than anyone else.

    Dana (fd537d)

  124. Dana — my sense is they trust him on *everything* more than anyone else. He is the only one who is trustworthy.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  125. @DanainKY@114 We do, in fact, metaphorically chain up people who might be inclined to act recklessly in ways that can cause harm. You can’t drive recklessly or under the influence, you can’t bring certain items on an airplane, you can’t casually shoot your gun in city limits or in a crowded area, for example. It can be done, I’m just not sure if it should be.

    Nic (896fdf)

  126. The much better looking Dana wrote:

    I’m really curious how Trump supporters here would have reacted to practical social distancing measures, including masks if Trump had pushed them from Day 1 and led by example.

    It’s got nothing to do with President Trump; it has to do with the authoritarian actions taken by state governors. If Governor Andy Beshear (D-KY) has asked people to wear masks, asked people to take safety measures, and made his case, I would have had no problem with him.

    But when he ordered people to wear masks, when he ordered churches closed, when he ordered businesses closed, then yes, I have a problem, a huge problem. That’s the kind of thing which begets resistance from me.

    This [insert slang term for the rectum here] ordered churches closed in mid-March, before Palm Sunday and before Easter, and sent the Staatspolizei to a couple of churches which dared to have in person service for Easter, to record license numbers of cars in the parking lots. A federal judge threw out his order closing churches, but that took ten weeks, ten weeks in which our First Amendment rights of peaceable assembly and free exercise of religion were denied by the Commonwealth of Kentucky.

    I was a pretty regular attendee at Mass before this stuff, but Reichsstatthalter Beshear has turned attendance at Mass to be not just a religious act, but a political one, an act of resistance, and I haven’t missed a Sunday since we were so graciously allowed to return to church.

    The Reichsstatthalter tried to get churches to close again, in October, though at that point, with the federal judge’s order in place, he couldn’t order it. Fortunately, the four bishops in the Bluegrass State wouldn’t go along, but we all knew: he would have ordered it if he could have.

    The Reichsstatthalter claims that Kentuckians support his measures, and cites polls to buttress his claims. But in 2020, Republican legislative candidates ran against the Governor, stating that they would rein in his authority, and the voters of the Commonwealth, in the only poll that actually counts, increased the GOP’s majority in the state House of Representatives from 61-39 to 75-25, and the state Senate from 28-10 to 30-8; only 19 of those seats were up for election in 2020.

    The General Assembly passed the legislation required, the Reichsstatthalter vetoed it, and the legislature overrode his veto by a huge margin. Herr Beshear then found a compliant judge, one who just loved to rein in former Governor Matt Bevin, a Republican, to issue an injunction against the legislature’s actions.

    The state legal system has been slow-walking action, to continue the Reichsstatthalter’s executive orders, to try to keep them in force until the ‘pandemic’ is over. The state Supreme Court is officially non-partisan but effectively Democratic.

    Kentuckians must fight this wannabe dictator, fight at every turn, fight wherever possible, because tyranny, when allowed to continue, flourishes.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  127. “We should reach heard immunity by as early as mid-summer.”

    Not if half of republicans don’t get immunized.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  128. Nic wrote:

    We do, in fact, metaphorically chain up people who might be inclined to act recklessly in ways that can cause harm.

    Who might be inclined? The notion that you must prove you’ve been vaccinated to be allowed to do anything is an assault on liberty, an assumption that someone who has not been vaccinated is acting ‘recklessly,’ and will cause harm. It assumes guilt, it assumes harm, when nothing of the sort has been proven.

    The British are subjects; Americans are citizens. Never before has that distinction been so starkly clear, and once again, Americans are called to demonstrate that difference.

    “I’d prefer to have dangerous freedom, than have peaceful slavery/” — Thomas Jefferson

    “We, too, born to freedom, and believing in freedom, are willing to fight to maintain freedom. We, and all others who believe as deeply as we do, would rather die on our feet than live on our knees.” — Franklin Roosevelt

    “Better to die free than live as slaves.” — Frederick Douglas

    “With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly, before God and the world, declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers, which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverence, employ for the preservation of our liberties; being with one mind resolved to die free men rather than to live slaves.” — Thomas Jefferson, on the Necessity of taking up arms, 1775. Magnificent.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  129. Mr thulhu wrote:

    “We should reach heard immunity by as early as mid-summer.”

    Not if half of republicans don’t get immunized.

    Remember when we were told that 70% vaccination would result in herd immunity? With Republicans constituting roughly 40% of the population, half of Republicans would be only 20%, leaving 80% vaccinated.

    Then, of course, Dr Fauxi raised his estimate to 85%.

    Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.

    The Dana in Kentucky (88b836)

  130. @DanainKY@128 As I said, I’m not sure that we should.

    However, again, preventative laws for speeding and dui and gun use and regulations for airplanes and court houses and federal buildings. Drivers licenses, gun licenses, contractor licenses, finger prints for law enforcement and education. Vaccinations for schools and certain jobs. Immunity tests for TB. We require all kinds of stuff to legally act or access. We do these already and I don’t know that requiring a vaccine verification to access to certain things is illegal. It looks legal to me.

    Again however, something can be legal and still be a bad idea to do. I don’t need to argue or even believe that something wouldn’t be legal in order to say it shouldn’t be done.

    Nic (896fdf)

  131. Hey Mitch -take your republicans and shove them.

    mg (8cbc69)

  132. ha

    mg (8cbc69)

  133. Again however, something can be legal and still be a bad idea to do. I don’t need to argue or even believe that something wouldn’t be legal in order to say it shouldn’t be done.

    Well said.

    Dave (1bb933)

  134. Off-topic: Infrastructure Week has finally arrived!

    No doubt there’s much to criticize from the point of view of limited government, but Biden’s plan looks like a pretty shrewd political move (following on the heels of the popular CV-19 bill) to drive a wedge between Trump’s working class voters and his fascist handmaidens on Capitol Hill.

    Trump’s blue collar voters don’t want laissez-faire economics, they want a hand-out and subsidized jobs. Biden’s going to give them what they want, and the QOP are going to thump their chests and oppose it right down to the 51-50 reconciliation vote, hopefully gutting their chance for a midterm swing.

    Dave (1bb933)

  135. But to be fair Dave, Biden backed himself into a corner with regard to financing the infrastructure bill when he halted the pipelines and new fracking permits…poof went the 2 dollar cushion that a higher Motor Fuel Task (whether per-gallon or mileage-based) could have slipped into with relatively little consternation. As opposed to the gift phrase “higher corporate taxes” which might just cat-herd enough NT back to their former home.

    urbanleftbehind (d2e989)

  136. democrats want to see your papers unless you’re crossing the border or voting

    JF (6fcdbe)

  137. Several bits of vaccine news:

    1. They’re trying to test out whether getting two different vaccines would be better than getting tow doses of the same vaccine and suspect the answer is yes. (but not by much)

    2. Pfizer says that a test (they haven;t submitted data to the FDA yet) of their vaccine on 12-15 year olds show that it is 100% effective and more effective than in people over 18. But that’s not what I am worried about. I am worried that it could give them the Kawasaki like syndrome.

    3. Johnson & Johnson spoiled millions of vaccine doses.

    Explanation: Till now J&J vaccine has been manufactured in the Netherlands and imported into the United States. A facility was set up in Baltimore to manufacture both the J&J vaccine and the Astra Zeneca. There was evidently some kind of mix-up between what was intended for J&J and what was intended for Astra Zeneca. No details given yet that could tell you if it really makes a difference.

    It took weeks till they caught the error, which happened when people from J&J visited the plant. This is all being done by a sub contractor.

    No vaccines from Baltimore have been released and the deliveries scheduled for next week don’t come from there. The Astra Zebeca vaccines (not yet approved in the USA) were not affected. J&J says they’ll be fully caught up by May 24 in any case. (they’ll be able to fulfill the order)

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  138. The Dana in Kentucky (88b836) — 3/31/2021 @ 8:05 pm:

    Kentuckians must fight this wannabe dictator, fight at every turn, fight wherever possible, because tyranny, when allowed to continue, flourishes.

    Given your direct comparisons of the Kentucky governor to a Nazi official, would you favor his violent removal?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  139. Dana in Kentucky — the estimates for the percent vaccinated necessary to achieve herd immunity changed in response to the data which show that emerging variants are more infectious. The herd immunity threshold is higher the more infectious the virus is.

    This wasn’t the result of a political plot, it was a result of recommendations changing due to changes in the underlying data on which the recommendations are based.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  140. Dana (fd537d) — 3/31/2021 @ 5:44 pm

    I just don’t understand how Americans trust him on COVID-19 more than anyone else.

    The biggest thing is: Because other people were saying there wouldn’t be a vaccine before the end of the year 2020 and he was saying there would be, and he was right, and the arguments against it being ready turned out to be invalid. Because everybody else was engaging in group think, or echoing prepared talking points which they gave no independent thought to, and Trump said what he thought, or hoped, but allowed himself to be corrected and kept changing what he said.

    And it wasn’t that so many people trusted him to be right (that poll number exceeds the percentage of Trump fans), it was they counted on Dr. Fauci an the consensus (which Democratic governors gave the impression of following) to be wrong. The advice could be critiqued and was. But they almost never took any of the criticisms into account. But then they would arbitrarily change advice. The latest is suddenly reducing the distance needed in elementary school classrooms from 6 feet to 3 feet. (the real distance, is nothing unless a child coughs – otherwise even 6 feet or 15 feet isn’t enough – what counts is ventilation.)

    So how could the advice be real? This was partially because it was pretended, maybe by the media, that the guidance that was being given out was individual health advice, when it was really “public health” which meant statistics. Advice, which, if followed, would, they hoped – it was not more than that – reduce the total number of hospitalizations and deaths. And it turned out they did take account of practical effects. And values and politics. Just not their politics. They didn’t care abut religious services, or funerals, so they took almost no account of that.

    How could you say there was public health danger is gatherings to protest mask wearings or business shutdowns or travel restrictions but there was no public health danger in Black Lives Matter protests? Not that they would be too difficult to stop but that they were all right in the first place???

    And, for those who noticed, that it was all right to break quarantine in order to vote?

    This was open dishonesty. Donald Trump never engaged in open dishonesty about Covid. But Dr. Fauci admitted he misled people about the utility of masks because he wanted to reserve them for people who worked in hospitals (he never thought about nursing homes by the way) and was wrong about the length the shutdowns needed to last. (because he never said it amounted mostly to treading water. You stop, you drown. According to his logic, they would need to go on for almost two years, because that’s how long it would take to gain herd immunity through vaccination. Unless your idea was merely to flatten the curve)

    Rush Limbaugh on Covid passports:

    https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2021/03/31/rush-knew-that-big-brother-was-always-lurking-out-there-covid-passports

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)

  141. @122

    Music festivals are one of my favorite form of entertainment. They are large crowd events, often running at more than 75K people, sometimes running at up to 125K people. Social distancing isn’t a thing.

    I assume that any festivals which happen this year will require attendees to either test negative on an onsite rapid test or have proof of vaccination. I assume that *insurance* will insist on it.

    So I look at a lot of the other instances of proof of vaccine requirements and think it could very well be driven by the insurers, not the companies themselves. Would you want to insure someone against a lawsuit alleging that a customer caught covid at an establishment, unless the establishment could point to backdrop policies like vaccination requirements which could establish that they weren’t negligent?

    aphrael (4c4719) — 3/31/2021 @ 5:31 pm

    I love music festivals too…

    I think the festivals could put in some legal fine print at the point of the ticket purchase to immunized the company against such lawsuits.

    whembly (446c04)

  142. I agree with whembly that they can (and will) have a disclaimer. And that’s sensible. If you go to a festival, you know you’re taking a risk of catching something.

    but I also agree with Aphrael that festivals will be smart and more insurable if they have a good plan. Vaccines or rapid tests = a less stressful festival. I’m ready to get back there.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  143. Excerpt of e-mail from Politifact:

    Hello, and thank you for your support of PolitiFact. We’re writing today with some big news: We’re announcing our first-ever, multi-day virtual event celebrating facts: United Facts of America — a Festival of Fact-Checking!

    The festival will feature some of the most sought after voices in media, health care, politics and technology. May 10-13, you’ll have the chance to ask Dr. Anthony Fauci questions about the future of the COVID-19 pandemic and get the facts about coronavirus vaccines. You’ll hear from Gabriel Sterling, the Georgia elections official at the center of countering election misinformation in his state. You’ll hear from expert fact-checkers from PolitiFact, the Washington Post and FactCheck.org, doctors on the front lines of the coronavirus pandemic and political and technology leaders trying to counter the spate of misinformation that lives online….

    One thing Dr Fauci is very wrong on is refusing to say that if vaccines are scarce, the second dose should be postponed and more people get a first dose. He’s really loyal to “science”

    Sammy Finkelman (6975b4)


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