Patterico's Pontifications

2/16/2021

Allahpundit on the Bipartisan Betrayal of Jaime Herrera Beutler

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



It may seem like old news, but Allahpundit’s post on this is compelling and infuriating.

[K]nowing that she was likely to end up on a political island here with Trumpers furious at her, Herrera Beutler stepped forward by issuing her statement. She was offering herself as a witness, knowing that it would make her MAGA public enemy number one. That takes guts. The least Democrats could do would be to call her as a witness and make sure that her show of courage didn’t go for naught — one would think.

But they choked. The House impeachment managers did ask for a vote authorizing the calling of witnesses on Saturday morning, after Herrera Beutler’s statement had jolted the trial. And unexpectedly, with help from Senate Republicans, it passed. It was a momentous victory for Democrats, opening the door potentially to calling Herrera Beutler to testify, maybe McCarthy, maybe Mike Pence. Trump’s defense team warned that if prosecution witnesses were called, they’d call 100 or more witnesses for the defense — but that was a bluff, since each witness would need to be called by a majority vote of the Senate and Republicans didn’t have 51 votes. And because the Senate was about to recess for a week, spending a few days deposing Herrera Beutler and others wouldn’t have bumped into any pressing business like the COVID relief bill.

Senate Dems couldn’t be bothered.

The bitterest and best line:

I hope Chris Coons had the best g-ddamned Valentine’s Day ever, seeing as how that was more important to him than dramatic on-camera testimony by a member of Trump’s own party about how he had behaved on January 6. The two sides ended up compromising on Herrera Beutler: In return for Dems not calling her as a witness, the GOP would allow lead impeachment manager Jamie Raskin to read into the record the newspaper story described above in which Herrera Beutler recounted what McCarthy told her about the call with Trump. It would be part of the official record, in other words.

But live evidence is always more compelling, as I wrote in my most recent Substack newsletter, which Allahpundit was kind enough to link to in his post. If you haven’t opened that one up yet, you should, as it gives you a little insight into the decisions a prosecutor makes in presenting a case. If you haven’t subscribed, you can fix that oversight easily by clicking here. I’m trying to stretch my writing a little harder to provide interesting content in the newsletter.

I’m going to make a donation to Herrera Beutler. She needs to know that courage is appreciated. Heaven knows she’s getting no appreciation from the people around her. Only betrayal on top of betrayal.

137 Responses to “Allahpundit on the Bipartisan Betrayal of Jaime Herrera Beutler”

  1. It might seem like we’re talking about this a lot, but a) it’s important and b) I hear frosty really appreciates it. We’re always looking to give the readers what they want. It’s called audience capture and we are nothing if not captured.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. It is important and MSM too often moves quickly over smaller but sill important details.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  3. I’m thinking that a 75-25 fracture of the GOP is important, that so many are still backing this one-term sore loser.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  4. I think they read a statement from Herrera Beutler into the record, not just an old newspaper story. So it was like an affidavit, except unsworn.

    What Kevin McCarthy might have contributed, had he wanted to, was the time of his call to Trump.

    I think it was already after Trump had tweeted:

    Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!

    Jan 6, ’21 @ 2:38 pm ET

    It goes more to show Trump’s prevarication than his condoning (and possible planning) of the violence.

    By planning I mean an actual conspiracy, not a speech where he repeats claims he’s made before, and doesn’t call on them to do anything except assemble peaceably, “cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women” and “demand that Congress do the right thing.”

    He says “we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections” which sounds like he expects the work of Congress not to be interrupted.

    Kevin McCarthy wanted Trump to call on them all to leave. I think the only thing that Trump could have said that might have helped was Trump announcing he was giving up his challenge to the election results.

    There is also the issue about the possibility of him providing more law enforcement, which is not what Kevin McCarthy asked Trump to do. What happened there is unclear, but that is maybe what you’d want Pence for, but many people could substitute.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  5. A commission also needs to go through every one of Trump’s election allegations, some more absurd than others. i.e. Trump claimed on January 6 that ” Pennsylvania and other states want to redo their votes.” (Who said that? Ignoring for the moment the fact that you can’t.)

    He also claimed there were more votes cast in Pennsylvania than there were voters. You’d need something more than forging signatures to do that.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  6. He also claimed there were more votes cast in Pennsylvania than there were voters. You’d need something more than forging signatures to do that.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/16/2021 @ 9:39 am

    Jewish space lasers?

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  7. If anyone remembers the Watergate hearings, there were literally weeks of live witnesses laying out the scope of Nixon’s crimes.

    Perhaps public opinion against Trump could have been turned this way, but I fear that 40% of the population sees nothing wrong with invading the Capitol and threatening to hang Democrats. I suspect that if the targets were Republicans instead, there would be double-digit support for hanging them, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  8. Does that say that the People have lost their minds, or that the two parties have lost theirs?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  9. I’ve got their commission right here (no offense to you, Sammy). What is needed is something with teeth, like a federal grand jury, and maybe I’m wishcasting but the DOJ team which is rounding up the Capitol invasion suspects might just have one already in place, a grand jury that is, honing its knives while eying Trump’s neck as well as the rabble’s.

    nk (1d9030)

  10. I hear frosty really appreciates it.

    I’m not sure who you are hearing that from but I do. Thanks!
    I think the impeachment trial is a wonderful gift that never stops. Example:

    read into the record the newspaper story described above in which Herrera Beutler recounted what McCarthy told her about the call with Trump

    It’s so important that the best we can do is a reporter said Beutler said McCarthy said. This is what impeaching a POTUS looks like in 2021. Everyone putting on their big boy pants and really doing their gosh darn best to seriously put on an impeachment trial that looks like a Little Rascel’s episode makes me proud to be an American.

    frosty (f27e97)

  11. A commission also needs to go through every one of Trump’s election allegations, some more absurd than others. i.e. Trump claimed on January 6 that ” Pennsylvania and other states want to redo their votes.” (Who said that? Ignoring for the moment the fact that you can’t.)

    He also claimed there were more votes cast in Pennsylvania than there were voters. You’d need something more than forging signatures to do that.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5) — 2/16/2021 @ 9:39 am

    A commission to establish facts is a good idea but won’t persuade anyone.

    Many of Trumps supporters aren’t persuadable by facts and many more will just take any lie Trump tells and ask ‘whatabout’.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  12. Time123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 10:24 am

    A commission to establish facts is a good idea but won’t persuade anyone.

    I’d be persuaded by facts but I’m probably not the target audience for what you have in mind. Establish seems to be the key word in “a commission to establish facts”.

    frosty (f27e97)

  13. Time123 (7cca75) — 2/16/2021 @ 10:24 am

    A commission to establish facts is a good idea but won’t persuade anyone.

    I’d be persuaded by facts but I’m probably not the target audience for what you have in mind. Establish seems to be the key word in “a commission to establish facts”.

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 11:16 am

    You don’t usually seem to be persuaded by facts. You don’t dey them, but when they’re inconvenient you often focus on minutia that won’t really change the overall point, or your reframe the debate into one about relative merit. When it’s pointed out you often assert that you didn’t intend to defend Trump or the GOP you were just pointing out….

    But you’re honest. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you assert something that isn’t true or decline to answer a relevant question when asked.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  14. OT: it’s sad to see Texas doing its own Venezuela impression. An energy-rich state doesn’t have enough energy to heat houses during this cold snap. Too many wind turbines frozen solid.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  15. OT: it’s sad to see Texas doing its own Venezuela impression. An energy-rich state doesn’t have enough energy to heat houses during this cold snap. Too many wind turbines frozen solid.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:24 pm

    That’s part of it, but not even close to all of it.

    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/texas/dallas-texas-electrical-power-outage-ercot-failures/287-50797307-0afe-43eb-8175-b78e7e4fc13a

    Time123 (dba73f)

  16. Leading House Democrat sues Donald Trump under a post-Civil War law for conspiracy to incite US Capitol riot
    …..
    The lawsuit, filed by Mississippi Democratic Rep. Bennie Thompson in his personal capacity, is the first civil action filed against the former President related to the attack at the US Capitol and comes days after the Senate acquitted Trump in his impeachment trial.

    If it proceeds, it would mean the former President and others would be subject to discovery and depositions, potentially exposing details and evidence that weren’t released during the Senate impeachment trial.
    …….
    The lawsuit cites a scarcely used federal statute passed after the Civil War (the Ku Klux Klan Act) that was intended to combat violence from the Ku Klux Klan; it allows civil actions to be brought against people who use “force, intimidation, or threat” to prevent anyone from upholding the duties of their office.
    ……
    “As part of this unified plan to prevent the counting of Electoral College votes,” the lawsuit states, “Defendants Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, through their leadership, acted in concert to spearhead the assault on the Capitol while the angry mob that Defendants Trump and Giuliani incited descended on the Capitol. The carefully orchestrated series of events that unfolded at the Save America rally and the storming of the Capitol was no accident or coincidence. It was the intended and foreseeable culmination of a carefully coordinated campaign to interfere with the legal process required to confirm the tally of votes cast in the Electoral College.”
    …….
    “We have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation,” McConnell said after voting to acquit Trump. “And former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one.”
    ……
    The legal underpinnings of the lawsuit could face an uphill battle in court, since the KKK statute has not been widely used.

    “It was specifically meant to provide federal civil remedies for federal officers who were prevented from performing their duties by two or more individuals, whether federal marshals in the post-Civil War South, federal judges in un-reconstructed lower courts; or federal legislators,” University of Texas Law professor and Supreme Court analyst Stephen Vladeck explained.

    “It’s not at all hard to see how that provision maps onto what happened on January 6 — where, quite obviously, two or more people conspired to prevent the Joint Session of Congress from performing its constitutional function of certifying President Biden’s Electoral College victory. The harder question is whether Trump himself can be connected to that conspiracy,” Vladeck said.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  17. OT: it’s sad to see Texas doing its own Venezuela impression. An energy-rich state doesn’t have enough energy to heat houses during this cold snap. Too many wind turbines frozen solid.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:24 pm

    Ted Cruz
    @tedcruz
    ·
    Aug 19, 2020
    California Texas is now unable to perform even basic functions of civilization, like having reliable electricity.

    Biden/Harris/AOC want to make CA’s failed energy policy the standard nationwide.

    Hope you don’t like air conditioning!

    Comedy gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. I’m kind of ambivalent.

    Nobody, I hope, will ever accuse me of being soft on President-Reject Trump.

    I would be glad to see all his crimes, betrayals and lies exposed in all their depravity.

    But the wider public would soon tire of a process that offered no prospect of any real consequences. Moreover, in hindsight such process look worse the longer it went on.

    There is real tension between peoples’ desire to make Trump pay, and their desire to make him go away. Given that most Republicans have now openly embraced Trump and fascism (to their ruin, one hopes), making him pay is simply off the congressional table.

    Dave (1bb933)

  19. Texas utility bills will sky rocket 1000% Desperate republicans are trying to fool people into thinking its wind mills instead of not building infrastructure like regulated states are required to do. Taking money from workers and giving it to those who don’t texas capitalism in action.

    asset (992975)

  20. Frozen Wind Farms Are Just a Small Piece of Texas’s Power Woes
    ……
    While ice has forced some turbines to shut down just as a brutal cold wave drives record electricity demand, that’s been the least significant factor in the blackouts, according to Dan Woodfin, a senior director for the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which operates the state’s power grid.

    The main factors: Frozen instruments at natural gas, coal and even nuclear facilities, as well as limited supplies of natural gas, he said. “Natural gas pressure” in particular is one reason power is coming back slower than expected Tuesday, added Woodfin.
    ……
    Wind shutdowns accounted for 3.6 to 4.5 gigawatts — or less than 13% — of the 30 to 35 gigawatts of total outages, according to Woodfin. That’s in part because wind only comprises 25% of the state’s energy mix this time of year.

    While wind can sometimes produce as much as 60% of total electricity in Texas, the resource tends to ebb in the winter, so the grid operator typically assumes that the turbines will generate only about 19% to 43% of their maximum output.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  21. Texas utility bills will sky rocket 1000% Desperate republicans are trying to fool people into thinking its wind mills instead of not building infrastructure like regulated states are required to do. Taking money from workers and giving it to those who don’t texas capitalism in action.

    asset (992975) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:58 pm

    Most states run what are called capacity markets. These are like insurance policies. Providers are paid to have sufficient capacity. If you’re a provider and you fail to meet peak capacity it gets expensive. Texas has a competitive market with great prices but it’s likely that competition has skinned up their ability to deal with .1% events like this week. We will probably find out this is part of it, but anyone that tells you the answer here is something simple is selling something.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  22. I don’t understand why Texas doesn’t bring in power from surrounding states, unless those states are facing the same problems. Here in my state, they send/receive power from neighboring states as needed.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd)

  23. I don’t understand why Texas doesn’t bring in power from surrounding states, unless those states are facing the same problems. Here in my state, they send/receive power from neighboring states as needed.

    Hoi Polloi (2f1acd) — 2/16/2021 @ 2:19 pm

    Because they can’t.

    https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/news/energy-environment/2021/02/15/391519/why-does-texas-have-its-own-power-grid/

    The Texas Interconnected System — which for a long time was actually operated by two discrete entities, one for northern Texas and one for southern Texas — had another priority: staying out of the reach of federal regulators. In 1935, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Federal Power Act, which charged the Federal Power Commission with overseeing interstate electricity sales. By not crossing state lines, Texas utilities avoided being subjected to federal rules. “Freedom from federal regulation was a cherished goal — more so because Texas had no regulation until the 1970s,” writes Richard D. Cudahy in a 1995 article, “The Second Battle of the Alamo: The Midnight Connection.”

    Time123 (dba73f)

  24. https://www.insider.com/zip-tie-guy-capitol-riot-plastic-handcuffs-police-prosecutors-2021-1

    The prosecution says they took the zip ties off a police officer and they said it was to prevent the police from arresting protesters.

    Another initial story that is now drastically different when more facts are revealed.

    NJRob (f4c46f)

  25. I don’t understand why Texas doesn’t bring in power from surrounding states, unless those states are facing the same problems. Here in my state, they send/receive power from neighboring states as needed.

    Texas’ secessionist inclinations have at least one modern outlet: the electric grid. There are three grids in the Lower 48 states: the Eastern Interconnection, the Western Interconnection — and Texas.
    ……
    The Texas Interconnected System — which for a long time was actually operated by two discrete entities, one for northern Texas and one for southern Texas — had another priority: staying out of the reach of federal regulators. In 1935, President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Federal Power Act, which charged the Federal Power Commission with overseeing interstate electricity sales. By not crossing state lines, Texas utilities avoided being subjected to federal rules. “Freedom from federal regulation was a cherished goal — more so because Texas had no regulation until the 1970s,” writes Richard D. Cudahy in a 1995 article, “The Second Battle of the Alamo: The Midnight Connection.” (Self-reliance was also made easier in Texas, especially in the early days, because the state has substantial coal, natural gas and oil resources of its own to fuel power plants.)
    …….
    ERCOT (Electric Reliability Council of Texas) was formed in 1970, in the wake of a major blackout in the Northeast in November 1965, and it was tasked with managing grid reliability in accordance with national standards. The agency assumed additional responsibilities following electric deregulation in Texas a decade ago. The ERCOT grid remains beyond the jurisdiction of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, which succeeded the Federal Power Commission and regulates interstate electric transmission.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  26. https://www.insider.com/zip-tie-guy-capitol-riot-plastic-handcuffs-police-prosecutors-2021-1

    The prosecution says they took the zip ties off a police officer and they said it was to prevent the police from arresting protesters.

    Another initial story that is now drastically different when more facts are revealed.

    NJRob (f4c46f) — 2/16/2021 @ 2:34 pm

    Interesting how much of the initial information wasn’t completely accurate. They should have called witnesses.

    I did notice that the same filing said they took those to prevent the police from using them, so their intent wasn’t exactly pure. But a lot less bad then it originally looked.

    Any info on the other people who had zip ties?

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  27. Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:11 pm

    But you’re honest. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you assert something that isn’t true or decline to answer a relevant question when asked.

    I appreciate the fairness.

    You don’t dey them, but when they’re inconvenient you often focus on minutia that won’t really change the overall point, or your reframe the debate into one about relative merit

    We are on different sides of a variety of issues. What you consider important I don’t, or not as much. I’d make the same comment about you but I don’t think it’s a criticism. It’s just the natural result of a person’s perspective. We have different perspectives, you’re honest about yours, and I respect that. What’s the point of having a discussion if it’s only to agree? That’s why people have pets. The whole point is to pick at each piece and smash whatever falls off like a monkey on crack.

    When it’s pointed out you often assert that you didn’t intend to defend Trump or the GOP you were just pointing out

    I get that. Someone wants to attack Trump, they really don’t care about consistency or facts, it’s all ends justify the means, anyone who ‘prevents’ that attack by criticizing the underlying argument is going to be seen as defending Trump. Even if they aren’t that in the bag no one really wants their argument picked apart. But the only point of “pointing out” that I’m defending X is to dodge the argument, it’s just ad hominem. I’ve been critical of Trump and the GOP but I don’t fit into the NeverTrump bucket and some people only have two. Gone are the days of reasonable disagreement. Today it’s all with me or against me binary choices which is one of those things that need the attention of a monkey with a steady supply.

    You don’t usually seem to be persuaded by facts.

    This is a little much. What fact do you think I’m not persuaded by? My guess is you’ve assumed things based on the comments I criticize. There’s a lot of things that get put up in comments here as “facts” that are just opinions in a dress. I took a pretty strong position on COVID in January a year ago when Sammy was telling me it was going to be the flu. It’d be more accurate to criticize me for not doing that on more issues.

    frosty (f27e97)

  28. The prosecution says they took the zip ties off a police officer and they said it was to prevent the police from arresting protesters.

    Another initial story that is now drastically different when more facts are revealed.
    NJRob (f4c46f) — 2/16/2021 @ 2:34 pm

    Actually that doesn’t improve their story. Based on that account, they stole the zip ties so the they could continue the insurrection.

    At one point, MUNCHEL spots plastic handcuffs on a table inside a hallway in the Capitol.

    MUNCHEL exclaims, “Zipties. I need to get me some of them motherf**kers,” and grabs several white plastic handcuffs from on top of a cabinet (but leaves many others). MUNCHEL then follows after Eisenhart, who is carrying a handcuff as well, to a staircase near the entrance to the Senate gallery; it appears from Capitol surveillance video that Eisenhart is following after two Capitol Police officers who had just encountered a mob outside the entrance to the Senate gallery. Eisenhart shouts from the banister, “Freedom!” “Traitors!” “We want a fair election!” and “We want rule of law!”……

    In addition, the motion to remand Munchel to custody cites repeatedly his possession of these handcuffs.

    The nature and circumstances of the offense charged in this case militate strongly in favor of detention. MUNCHEL has been charged with an extremely serious offense, arising from his entry into the Capitol with a violent mob while dressed in tactical gear and armed with a taser, to
    disrupt the counting of the Electoral College votes from the 2020 Presidential election. MUNCHEL also seized several pairs of white plastic handcuffs and carried them around with him while inside the Capitol; he appears to have brought them back to Nashville with him, perhaps as trophies…….

    …….

    MUNCHEL’s conduct underlying the instant offense—which includes MUNCHEL stashing unknown “weapons” before entering the Capitol, carrying a taser on his person into the Senate gallery, and seizing handcuffs as he and others stormed the building—also demonstrates the danger he poses to the community if released.

    Obviously the irony escapes Eisenhart when he shouts “We want the rule of law!” and they are attacking Federal officers and disrupting a legal Congressional proceeding.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  29. You don’t usually seem to be persuaded by facts.

    This is a little much. What fact do you think I’m not persuaded by? My guess is you’ve assumed things based on the comments I criticize.

    That is too much. I shouldn’t have written it. Will you accept an apology?

    Time123 (dba73f)

  30. Rip, I think a terrorist arming themselves with Zip cuffs they find is much less threatening then one planning a use for them and bringing them.

    I agree with you that “I stole the cuffs so the police couldn’t arrest people” isn’t a excuse that points to actual innocence. But it’s better then “brought them to control hostages.”

    Time123 (dba73f)

  31. Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 1:06 pm

    We will probably find out this is part of it, but anyone that tells you the answer here is something simple is selling something.

    Not simple but it reminds me of Smartest Guys In The Room. To me, it seemed like everyone clearly explained how CA regulatory changes drove the behavior that caused the CA electric infrastructure issues but there is Jerry Brown denouncing the accursed free market and explaining how it wasn’t a problem with the regulations after explaining the regulations ENRON fully complied with exploited. The film was meant to paint ENRON as the villains, and they were, but it’s also supposed to be pro-regulation or at least anti-deregulation when it was the regulations what created the problem.

    frosty (f27e97)

  32. Time123 (dba73f) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:01 pm

    That is too much. I shouldn’t have written it. Will you accept an apology?

    None is needed. If I’m hardheaded and ignoring facts it’s fair to point that out. I’d much rather you do that than have an apology.

    frosty (f27e97)

  33. Speaking of AllahPundit, he also brought up Trump’s reaction to McConnell’s speech and WSJ piece.
    Of course Trump lashed out at McConnell. Trump’s narrative is that “people thought that what I said was totally appropriate”, and he’s sticking to his story (just like that “perfect call” to Zelensky), so McConnell is now disloyal for telling the truth, for saying that Trump’s words were not appropriate.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  34. Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 1:06 pm

    We will probably find out this is part of it, but anyone that tells you the answer here is something simple is selling something.

    Not simple but it reminds me of Smartest Guys In The Room. To me, it seemed like everyone clearly explained how CA regulatory changes drove the behavior that caused the CA electric infrastructure issues but there is Jerry Brown denouncing the accursed free market and explaining how it wasn’t a problem with the regulations after explaining the regulations ENRON fully complied with exploited. The film was meant to paint ENRON as the villains, and they were, but it’s also supposed to be pro-regulation or at least anti-deregulation when it was the regulations what created the problem.

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:16 pm

    Every problem has a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.

    In my real job I’ve learned that when someone says “All you have to do….” what follows will not work.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  35. Rip, I think a terrorist arming themselves with Zip cuffs they find is much less threatening then one planning a use for them and bringing them.

    I agree with you that “I stole the cuffs so the police couldn’t arrest people” isn’t a excuse that points to actual innocence. But it’s better then “brought them to control hostages.”

    The idea is that he stole handcuffs to prevent arrests and not take hostages is a self-serving statement from Munchel. We’ll see what he says during a trial or allocution.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  36. Speaking of AllahPundit, he also brought up Trump’s reaction to McConnell’s speech and WSJ piece.
    Of course Trump lashed out at McConnell. Trump’s narrative is that “people thought that what I said was totally appropriate”, and he’s sticking to his story (just like that “perfect call” to Zelensky), so McConnell is now disloyal for telling the truth, for saying that Trump’s words were not appropriate.

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:28 pm

    Winners Make Policy, Losers go home.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  37. Rip, I think a terrorist arming themselves with Zip cuffs they find is much less threatening then one planning a use for them and bringing them.

    I agree with you that “I stole the cuffs so the police couldn’t arrest people” isn’t a excuse that points to actual innocence. But it’s better then “brought them to control hostages.”

    The idea is that he stole handcuffs to prevent arrests and not take hostages is a self-serving statement from Munchel. We’ll see what he says during a trial or allocution.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:31 pm

    Even if he stole them to take hostages, the fact that they didn’t go to the rally planning to do that is better then if they did.

    Time123 (52fb0e)

  38. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:28 pm

    Sun Tzu said ‘When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard’. This has been forgotten by parts of modern American politics.

    he’s sticking to his story

    For all of his faults, DJT has learned to never admit fault and never apologize.

    There’s no advantage. Trying it will only lead to failure. His opponents don’t allow escape and his allies are abandoned.

    McConnell is now disloyal for telling the truth

    Waxing poetic about the truth and the righteous truth-telling aside, McConnell would do well to learn the lesson. He should stick to his position. He’ll get more respect standing upright.

    frosty (f27e97)

  39. 7.If anyone remembers the Watergate hearings, there were literally weeks of live witnesses laying out the scope of Nixon’s crimes.

    Golly; though most of his colleagues from then are dead, ol’Senator Plagiarist surely does.

    The context of the times were different, too. It was summer when the biggies testified and people not only watched on NBC, ABC, CBS and PBS– they listened on radios and still read newspapers, too–and each witness either lied or dropped a grenade. Dean alone testified– for what– 4 days? Government betrayal on that scale was still a new revelation, coming in the wake of the Congressional Vietnam hearings- also televised- a few years earlier. Back I the day, citizens in flyover country tended to trust what their government said until the awful, brutal truth was exposed. It’s little wonder the following generations w/shorter attention spans are increasingly skeptical by rule, not exception– and neither party has done anything to breed faith in theor abilities. You must parse every word. So, for instance President Plagiarist pledged to get schools open…but ‘once a week wasn’t even in the swampy fine print.

    Yes, parse, parse, parse…’shut down the virus’ now means vaccine for all in perhaps… June or July…

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  40. Time123 (52fb0e) — 2/16/2021 @ 3:30 pm

    Every problem has a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong.

    In my real job I’ve learned that when someone says “All you have to do….” what follows will not work.

    Then let me introduce you to the frosty flowchart; step 1 is the government involved if yes that’s probably the problem if no double check because you probably missed something, step 2 are commies involved if yes see step 1 because you missed something. It’s 100% effective most of the time.

    frosty (f27e97)

  41. Memo to 74-plus million:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-mcconnell-attack-statement_n_602c4329c5b65ff1f6035fab

    ‘Former President Donald Trump went after Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), calling the Senate minority leader “ a dour, sullen, and unsmiling political hack.” In a lengthy statement on Tuesday, Trump said that McConnell was “ destroying the Republican side of the Senate” and that the senator was ” one of the most unpopular politicians in the United States.”‘

    Boom.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  42. Heh! How unexpected! By which I mean totally expected.

    Auditioning for “Mean Girls II”, now that you have the time, eh, Donnie Boy? But, you know, Lindsey Graham has the jump on you with name recognition.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. I want to return fire on Hoi Polloi and rip for sniping at Texas… Lots of blackouts and we’re doing just fine other than the no water or power thing, which I barely even notice.

    I am literally sitting in the dark and don’t want to use up all my phone battery. so y’all win this one. 😘

    In all honesty we are doing fine and making fond memories. Lots of laughs and adaptation all cuddled up with the family.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  44. @42. Thing is, his characterization is accurate.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  45. @43. https://vimeo.com/70914835

    Boom.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  46. That’s another problem with electric cars, or all cars being electric cars. If there’s a blackout, not ony do ou lose electricity, you lose transportation (although there could be problems with gas stations, I think, in regular widespread blackouts.

    The same thing with cellphones.

    Lights and appliances, telephones, heating, and automobiles used to always run on separate systems.

    Do politicians not see a problem that could happen?

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  47. Do politicians not see a problem that could happen?

    Stalin saw it in 1934 and wished he had it, Sammy.

    nk (1d9030)

  48. Texas Power Plants Shut by Cold Left Pipes Exposed to Elements
    Texas blackouts triggered by frozen power infrastructure have left many wondering why the state’s electricity generators weren’t prepared for the cold.

    The short answer: They aren’t required to cold-proof their assets. While generators in chillier regions are typically compelled by federal or state rules to protect their plants from the elements, Texas plants can leave their pipes, valves and pressure gauges exposed. It’s cheaper that way.
    …….
    More than 45 gigawatts of Texas electricity capacity has been shut this week, in many cases because the instrumentation froze over, according to the state’s grid operator. Natural gas, coal, wind and even nuclear facilities have gone dark because of the cold and wind turbines have stopped because of ice on the blades.

    In West Texas, wellheads have frozen, curbing natural gas supplies bound for power plants. While fieldworkers in frigid North Dakota are used to cold-proofing — for example, using winterized chemicals for fracking, setting up heaters to keep equipment warm and installing chains on all trucks — Texans aren’t accustomed to it.
    …….
    Stay warm Dustin! It will be 70 degrees plus all week here in sunny California! Seriously, I sympathize. It’s your politicians that have used California as a punching bag that deserve the hits.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  49. I’m doing great, but the problem is very serious. I have friends who are cold. Another night with no power is dangerous at this point. I can think of a lot of ways this is unacceptable but it’s hard to get information so I don’t want to talk out of turn. I’m sure a lot of guys are freezing their ass off fixing things we need.

    I always talk about stocking up and I do that so I’m OK without running water and have food to spare, even for the kiddos. Fire turns out to be a pretty great invention.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  50. “a dour, sullen, and unsmiling political hack”

    I guarantee you that Trump has never used the word “dour”. Who wrote this?

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  51. I guarantee you that Trump has never used the word “dour”. Who wrote this?

    Michelle Obama is my first guess.

    nk (1d9030)

  52. Dustin (4237e0) — 2/16/2021 @ 5:06 pm

    I want to return fire on Hoi Polloi and rip for sniping at Texas

    It seems like an unusual extreme but I don’t follow TX weather. I wouldn’t hit TX hard for this. That’s a recipe for overreaction. The MS gulf coast is still having issues “recovering” from Katrina.

    frosty (f27e97)

  53. Jewish space lasers?

    Everyone knows the space lasers are operated by Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos.

    https://www.geekwire.com/2021/spacexs-elon-musk-amazons-project-kuiper-stir-war-words-satellites

    Update for 11:55 p.m. PT Jan. 26: …SpaceX has just launched its first batch of laser-equipped Starlink satellites in the lower orbits.

    “If Amazon prevails, it will derail the plan for the remaining polar-orbit satellites with inter-satellite laser links. … My uninformed bias favors Musk in this dispute because he is innovating in this case, but I understand that Bezos may have planned based on what had been approved,” …

    If you are going to make up a story, at least give it somewhat more of an overlap with reality – but then again that’s not what the people making up these stories want.

    So it’s somebody named Rothschild who does this, and I suppose that person, not Bezos or Musk, is the richest man in the world in their alternate reality.

    Or they could remember that Ronald Reagan, or the Soviets maybe, wanted to build space lasers, and build upon that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excalibur

    Project Excalibur was a Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) Cold War–era research program to develop an X-ray laser system as a ballistic missile defense (BMD) for the United States. The concept involved packing large numbers of expendable X-ray lasers around a nuclear device, which would orbit in space. During an attack, the device would be detonated, with the X-rays released focused by each laser to destroy multiple incoming target missiles. …

    …One of the many arguments used to support Excalibur, and SDI as a whole, was the suggestion that the Soviets were working on the same ideas. In particular, they said the Soviets published numerous papers on X-ray lasers until 1977 when they suddenly stopped. They argued this was because they had also begun a military X-ray laser program, and were now classifying their reports.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  54. You see what;s really happened with the weather is not so much global warming, but greater variability in weather.

    There’s about 5% more water vapor in the air than there used to be 100 years ago, and, unlike carbon dioxide, it’s not mostly evenly spread throughout the atmosphere.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  55. CNN Sci-Fi Special from Wisconsin:

    UFJOE.

    Swamp gas.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  56. 16. The 1871 law is a good basis upon which to file a lawsuit (unless there is a problem with standing) but the factual basis with which Congressman Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.) charges that Trump and Giuliani orchestrated the storming of the Capitol in order to prevent him and others anyone from upholding the duties of their office, namely to prevent the counting of Electoral College votes, isn’t accurate and would never work.

    The riot was planned but not by arranging for a ray and a few speeches, even given the two months build-up. Most of the worst people probably never went to the Ellipse.

    And that conversation with Kevin McCarthy doesn’t prove that Trump planned it or even wanted it to continue. It just proves he might say almost anything. It probably happened after he already tweeted the people in the crowd should stay peaceful. Now if you think that Trump was in secret contact with insurrectionists while that was going on, that’s another story.

    If Congressman Bennie Thompson sued John Does or other people charged (and he does sue the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys but there were more preexisting groups involved) and did discovery maybe he’d find something out.

    Except they’d all plead the 5th amendment and prosecutors would ask them to wait.

    He can still do discovery. Maybe work on connections between Trump and the organizers of the two rallies – when did Trump cancel his appearance at the second rally?

    Depose Alex Jones. Who told him, or how did he know, that Trump was going to be at the Capitol, or was that a lie? Get more and more names of persons to question.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  57. Waxing poetic about the truth and the righteous truth-telling aside, McConnell would do well to learn the lesson. He should stick to his position. He’ll get more respect standing upright.

    As I recall, McConnell did stick to his story, frosty. His condemnation of Trump and his objectors’ fascism on 1/6 is unrecanted, and his 1/19 condemnation of Trump for his responsibility in the domestic terrorist attack was reaffirmed last Saturday. Regarding conviction, he played it close to the vest.
    The problem for Trump is, smarter people would’ve at least shut their pieholes on the Big Lie (or not even gone down that road), he would’ve given himself an out, not doubled and tripled down on something so easily fact-checked, and now his Big Scam is part of American history, and not in a good way for him or for my party.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  58. was the suggestion that the Soviets were working on the same ideas.

    Mine shaft gap you say? We can’t have that

    frosty (f27e97)

  59. 51. The description of Mitch McConnell could be, and probably is, plagiarized from somewhere.

    I can’t find out because all searches link to something after Trump’s statement even when you exclude today.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  60. To summarize Trump’s statement about McConnell, our one-term loser president might as well have said, “We did not send him there to vote his conscience. We did not send him there to do the right thing or whatever he said he was doing,” like that idiot from PA.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  61. Nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah! McConnell has Twitter and Trump doesn’t! Nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah!

    nk (1d9030)

  62. As I recall, McConnell did stick to his story, frosty.

    And as I said he should stick to his position. Should I have said continue sticking? That’s doesn’t sound right. Verb tense. It can be complicated. I don’t even know which one that is. Simple present? Present progressive? I’m pretty sure it’s one of the present or future tenses though.

    The problem for Trump is

    Yes, yes, very well said, pieholes and smarter people and the big lie, (do you know the history of that phrase?), and doubling and tripling of things. You even linked to things. That’s novel. It gives me things to click on. All very well said. You’ve made some top quality points there. A lot to think about.

    frosty (f27e97)

  63. Trump is capable of forcing a split in the Republican Party.

    Meanwhile, McConnell’s plan for regaining control of the Senate:

    Admit Puerto Rico, but not DC, as a state.

    Most members of the dominant political party in Puerto Rico, which is also the statehood party, affiliate with the Republicans.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  64. McConnell said that if Article Two section 4 did not establish the power of impeachment, but only said that if impeached, removal was automatic then “treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors” were not the sole grounds to impeach a president (but it is just that if that was the grounds removal followed, and if that was not the grounds, it was up to the Senate to decide whether to punish him or not.)

    And indeed, Hamilton,in Federalist number 69 can be read as saying that.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  65. And as I said he should stick to his position.

    When you said “McConnell would do well to learn the lesson”, I took that to mean that he had yet not learned this all-important stick-to-your-story lesson that you’re imparting.
    I’m familiar that the “Big Lie” came from Mein Kampf.

    All this was inspired by the principle—which is quite true within itself—that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.
    It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously.

    I’m not saying that Trump is a Nazi, but he’s using that Nazi tactic, whether knowingly or unknowingly, who can say.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  66. The Commission is just a political platform to torture Republicans a while longer. Biden’s DoJ should just arrest Trump, Don Jr, and everyone else who was exhorting people to go straighten out Congress.

    Let it come out in a court without political control, instead of yet another show trial where no one goes to jail.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  67. We should absolutely admit Puerto Rico as a state, regardless of what the partisan impact of that is. They’re American citizens. There should not be millions of American citizens without a state.

    I don’t see how we admit DC as a state without making the amendment that gives DC 3 electors *in effect* give 3 electors to the President. I think a constitutional amendment is required for DC statehood to work *in a practical sense*.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  68. We should absolutely admit Puerto Rico as a state, regardless of what the partisan impact of that is. They’re American citizens. There should not be millions of American citizens without a state.

    We should absolutely break California into 5 states. There are millions of US citizens in California subjected to a despotic central government in Sacramento without meaningful representation. The San Joaquin Valley and “Jefferson” are cultures to themselves, without any real say in who rules them.

    FREE CALIFORNIA!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  69. DC should be absorbed into Maryland. I don’t see how you make Puerto Rico a state without the US Virgin Islands individually having a claim to statehood, Guam having a claim, American Samoa, etc.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  70. It seems reasonable that U.S. citizens, including those in islands like Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Samoa, D.C. etc., should be able to have full political participation in their country. Which means figuring out a way of organizing them as states, which is how full political participation is organized under our Constitution.

    Victor (4959fb)

  71. Simple question, how does Puerto Rico statehood benefit the American people? Puerto Rico is a very poor island….it has a per capita income half of that of Mississippi. Not surprisingly, it also has very high crime rates. Currently, PR can’t pay its bills…it’s drowning in debt even prior to hurricane Maria. Where exactly will it come up with tax dollars to send to Washington DC….and at what further cost to its already fragile economy?

    After 3+ years since Maria, it’s fair to say that the local PR government has botched the recovery. Whatever you can say about its governance, you can’t say that it’s been effective. PR also remains mostly Spanish speaking….it’s estimated that only 20% are fluent in English. Further, the referendums on ths issue of statehood aren’t even clear whether the people want this. There’s been no clear supermajority over multiple years arguing for admittance. The response is at best tepid.

    Poor, mismanaged, largely spanish speaking, equivocal national support for statehood, a potential socialist sink hole,….oh and a center-Left state that would mostly vote for Democrats in the House, Senate, and White House…..I’m just not seeing the conservative case for statehood….heck, I’m not seeing really ANY case for statehood….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  72. Simple question, how does Puerto Rico statehood benefit the American people? Puerto Rico is a very poor island….it has a per capita income half of that of Mississippi. Not surprisingly, it also has very high crime rates. Currently, PR can’t pay its bills…it’s drowning in debt even prior to hurricane Maria. Where exactly will it come up with tax dollars to send to Washington DC….and at what further cost to its already fragile economy?

    After 3+ years since Maria, it’s fair to say that the local PR government has botched the recovery. Whatever you can say about its governance, you can’t say that it’s been effective. PR also remains mostly Spanish speaking….it’s estimated that only 20% are fluent in English. Further, the referendums on ths issue of statehood aren’t even clear whether the people want this. There’s been no clear supermajority over multiple years arguing for admittance. The response is at best tepid.

    Poor, mismanaged, largely spanish speaking, equivocal national support for statehood, a potential socialist sink hole,….oh and a center-Left state that would mostly vote for Democrats in the House, Senate, and White House…..I’m just not seeing the conservative case for statehood….heck, I’m not seeing really ANY case for statehood….

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 2/17/2021 @ 4:39 am

    They’re a US territory populated by Spanish speaking US citizens. If they apply a path to statehood should be established, perhaps one that addresses some of problems with governmental efficiency. Their poverty is a problem, but I’ll bet you if we looks we’ll find out that western territories like Wyoming were poor relative to existing states.

    That said, I don’t think they should be dragged in just to pump up the senate with 2 Dem votes.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  73. Summary:

    For five years, he has pre-labelled his elections “rigged”… so that he can claim he has never lost. He isn’t a “loser”. He has claimed Obama wasn’t qualified and Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden should be in jail.

    Proof? Well, that’s why he consistently attacks the media, of course. If they are no longer credible to half of the public, who is left to disprove all of his lies and conspiracy theories?

    Meanwhile, he is the one rigging the election. He’s engaging in election fraud in plain sight. And he… should be in jail.

    noel (9fead1)

  74. Simple question, how does Puerto Rico statehood benefit the American people?

    To be more clear, the people who live in PR are part of the American people and therefore what benefits them benefits the American people. They have the same right to become a state that Alaska and Hawaii did.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  75. Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 2/16/2021 @ 12:41 pm

    Texas is now unable to perform even basic functions of civilization, like having reliable electricity.

    […]

    Comedy gold!

    In TX this is the result of an extreme weather event. In CA it’s any random day during the summer?

    Comedy gold indeed. You got in a good one there. Really twisted the irony.

    frosty (f27e97)

  76. However, legal precedent has established that the citizenship clause of the 14A does not extend to PR….i.e., they’re not citizens in the Constitutional sense because the territory is not incorporated. That doesn’t mean Congress could violate their fundamental rights, but it is also different from citizenship in actual states. I’m not seeing this as a persuasive argument for statehood. It’s kind of circular reasoning.

    I would also think the territorial argument for our western states like Wyoming is far more persuasive than any sort of strategic benefit of an island with a terrible infrastructure and 3.5M largely poor people. Again, what’s the benefit?

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  77. Time123 – I am agreed on your last point. People in Puerto Rico are currently Americans. What benefits them benefits Americans. If the rest of the United States is unhappy about giving some Americans actual political representation, than they need to reconsider their underlying political philosophy, (perhaps make it a clear plank in the next R platform that they don’t believe in democracy) or demand that PR separates itself.

    But it doesn’t bother me if part of the reason is to make D control of the Senate more likely. First, there’s no guarantee PR would always vote D, though Trump did everything possible to make that more probable. The statehood party in PR has usually been associated with Republicans.

    Second, the Senate as currently comprised is badly rigged for R’s anyway. A collection of small states predominately R have disproportionate power. This is particularly true given the very stupid filibuster.

    And finally, it’s not like U.S. history isn’t rife with the admission of states for political purposes. Why are there two Dakotas? Why did it take so long for New Mexico to become a state ?(hint, too many hispanics).

    D’s should take any opportunity to admit PR. It’s both the right thing to do and probably helps to advance good political goals, i.e. hindering R obstruction in the Senate, at least if R’s continue to insult PR as they are wont to do.

    Victor (4959fb)

  78. Three time loser.

    Trump won the Electoral College in 2016 but I think it is important to remind Republicans that Donald Trump presided over three straight election losses. He and Republicans lost the popular vote handily in 2016, 2018 and, even after he was caught cheating, in 2020.

    I don’t think he will run again. But, if he does, we have learned that destruction will follow. Win, or more likely… lose.

    noel (9fead1)

  79. AJ, I’m not a lawyer buy my understading is that the people that live in PR are full US citizens. Because they’re residents of a territory they don’t vote for president or have congressional representation. But if they use their US passport to move to a state they get to do those things. If you or I move there and become residents of PR we lose those things. But at all times we’re all US citizens.

    It likely won’t benefit you or I to make them a state. As you said, they’re poor and they’re predominately Spanish speaking. That would represent huge challenges. My point is that the people that live there are US citizens, they have a rights and if they want to become a state (I think it’s a contentious issue there) a path to do that should be established. But because it will be good for people who live in other parts of the US, but because as US citizens they have the right to congressional representation if they want it.

    That said, I don’t think statehood should be forced on them for partisan political gain. Especially not when creating a new state that’s poor, Spanish speaking and an island will be a huge sh*t-show.

    Time123 (ae9d89)

  80. D’s should take any opportunity to admit PR. It’s both the right thing to do and probably helps to advance good political goals, i.e. hindering R obstruction in the Senate, at least if R’s continue to insult PR as they are wont to do.

    Victor (4959fb) — 2/17/2021 @ 5:42 am

    If the people of PR want to be a state that right should be honored. But from what I’ve read it’s a contentious issue and the plurality in favor is slim at best.

    Time123 (ae9d89)

  81. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/16/2021 @ 8:04 pm

    I’m not saying that Trump is a Nazi, but he’s using that Nazi tactic, whether knowingly or unknowingly, who can say.

    I guess whether you understand the original depends on who you think is telling the lie. If you think Trump is telling the big lie, which is what it sounds like, then you’ve got the rolls reversed.

    In Mein Kampf it was Hitler saying the Jews were telling the big lie. The big lie itself wasn’t the nazi tactic in Mein Kampf. The nazi tactic was to accuse someone else of telling the big lie.

    If you’re claiming Trump is telling the big lie then you’re accusing him of using, at least according to the nazis, a Jewish tactic.

    frosty (f27e97)

  82. AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 2/17/2021 @ 4:39 am

    Taking Kevin M’ point about splitting up CA and considering the case you’ve made here I propose we break up CA and only allow some of the parts back in.

    frosty (f27e97)

  83. Her statement was valuable for advancing the investigation.

    But you can’t have her testifying that Kevin McCarthy told her this was the conversation, when Kevin McCarthy HIMSELF is sitting at the other end of the same building while the trial is going on.

    He was available to give a first-hand account of the conversation, as opposed to her second-hand account.

    Mike S (4125f8)

  84. Time123 – I agree that the citizens of PR should have a vote in determining whether to become a state. But I think they should be encouraged to have that vote, and that it should be clear if they do so vote they will be admitted.

    Victor (4959fb)

  85. “that said, I don’t think statehood should be forced on them”

    This is a big part of my reluctance….if you can show persistent 75% PR support for statehood…maybe there’s a point. But maybe you see 50%….with low voter turnout…granted it’s non-binding…but still. PR has a distinctive Spanish/Latin culture…my sense…having visited….is that they don’t want to lose that. They’re also probably not eager to fall under OSHA, EEOC, IRS, EPA stewardship….and have Washington “help fix them”. Victor all but concedes that this is about political muscling…..which makes it apparent that there’s no benefit to me….why would I support this?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  86. Puerto Rican statehood would be a huge international strategic blunder. It is fear of being stuck with Puerto Rico which has kept other world powers from attempting major incursions into the Caribbean.

    nk (1d9030)

  87. .which makes it apparent that there’s no benefit to me….why would I support this?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 2/17/2021 @ 6:24 am

    I guess it depends on how you feel about the rights of people in general and US citizens specifically. I get no direct benefit Parlor or Instagram existing. But I think they have a right to do so.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  88. He and Republicans lost the popular vote handily in 2016

    Jeez, another “popular vote” fetishist. The election is not about the popular vote, so candidates don’t campaign as if it was. So they go to places like Iowa instead of just staying in California or the Northeast.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  89. Currently, Puerto Ricans do not pay federal income tax (they do pay FICA, excise taxes, etc). They would have to pay federal income tax if PR became a state. This affects their desire for statehood.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  90. He and Republicans lost the popular vote handily in 2016

    Jeez, another “popular vote” fetishist. The election is not about the popular vote, so candidates don’t campaign as if it was. So they go to places like Iowa instead of just staying in California or the Northeast.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/17/2021 @ 7:31 am

    I curious how much impact this makes. Do voters in deep red / blue areas cancel out? Would a popular vote for president have an impact at the local level by bringing out more people to the pols?

    Time123 (ae9d89)

  91. Jeez, another “popular vote” fetishist. The election is not about the popular vote, so candidates don’t campaign as if it was. So they go to places like Iowa instead of just staying in California or the Northeast.

    I think it’s hilarious, (not necessarily you Kevin) who are all about how the popular vote is meaningless and we’re a republic which is apparently the opposite of a democracy, but then like to talk about the 74 million people who voted for Trump as if that were really really important.

    And I note with respect to the other topic – statehoods, the fact that Virgin Islands or Guam don’t have a lot of people should be irrelevant to to the question of whether they should be states. After all the Most Important Thing is the Equal Sovereign Dignitude of the states, no matter how many people they have.

    As for PR, I wouldn’t call it muscling, but doing something morally right that also (probably) benefits Democrats. And I agree that many are reluctant to give up some of the benefits of not being a state. Until now it’s usually been a choice among three options, Independence, status quo or statehood and, unsurprisingly, the mushy middle of status quo gets the plurality. But being a crazy idealist, I think the U.S. should be out of the business of ruling people it doesn’t give political rights to, and so the options on some future ballot should be statehood or independence.

    Victor (4959fb)

  92. In Mein Kampf it was Hitler saying the Jews were telling the big lie. The big lie itself wasn’t the nazi tactic in Mein Kampf. The nazi tactic was to accuse someone else of telling the big lie.

    That’s your interpretation, frosty. Hitler didn’t silo his Big Lies just to “the Jews did it”, but I note that you just compared even more closely Hitler’s technique to Trump’s Big Lie because, for months on end, our ex-president was accusing others of cheating and lying to steal the election from him, while he himself was attempting the stealing. It was a great bit of propagandistic blame-shifting.
    And it’s not like Hitler isolated his propaganda technique just to his stabbed-in-the-back myth, or that those dirty Jews are the big fat liars. It was a Big Lie when Hitler said “we want peace and nothing else” and “we have been dragged into a war against our will” and “we have no territorial demands in Europe” and “we do not wish to interfere with the rights of others, to restrict the lives of other peoples, to oppress or subjugate other peoples.” Those Big Lies were his.
    The reason were even talking about this is that, like with Hitler in Germany, Trump’s incessant lies have worked. He’s got an untold number of gullible followers who’ve swallowed his every word and are asking for more, undermining our democracy in the process. He’s got those chumps believing that it’s really the Democrats who are the cheaters, despite the lack of any legitimate evidence of serious fraud.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  93. Jeez, another “popular vote” fetishist. The election is not about the popular vote, so candidates don’t campaign as if it was. So they go to places like Iowa instead of just staying in California or the Northeast.

    I also note that the Republicans of upstate New York or rural California far outnumber those in Iowa. And the Democrats of Texas outnumber those of Nevada or South Carolina. It’d be nice if national campaigning reflected those facts.

    Victor (4959fb)

  94. “I guess it depends on how you feel about the rights of people”

    So, Puerto Rico has no ability to govern itself and provide and secure their people’s rights? Again, show me the referendum results that show me that they want or need you to secure their rights. This strikes me as a bit of paternalism.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  95. Victor (4959fb) — 2/17/2021 @ 7:56 am

    who are all about how the popular vote is meaningless and we’re a republic which is apparently the opposite of a democracy

    Opposite of a democracy? What does that mean, or what do you think it means? If you google democracy it gives you a handy definition right there in the search results:

    a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

    If by opposite you mean antonym, googling that gets you things like tyranny or dictatorship. Are you saying a representative republic is a dictatorship, or that “some people” are saying that?

    frosty (f27e97)

  96. As I said in comment 80:

    If the people of PR want to be a state that right should be honored. But from what I’ve read it’s a contentious issue and the plurality in favor is slim at best.

    Time123 (ae9d89) — 2/17/2021 @ 5:51 am

    Please don’t put words in my mouth or misrepresent what I’m saying. PR is a US territory. Like other US territories the people there have a right to petition for statehood if they choose.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  97. Frosty,

    I was being sarcastic. I have read, often, on conservative websites and from the mouths of Republican Senators that the U.S. is a Republic not a democracy, usually in reaction to any moves to make voting in the U.S. more democratic.

    Victor (4959fb)

  98. This story about Trump Plaza casino would a great political metaphor, although I doubt any political implosion involving Trump would be “controlled”.

    Atlantic City Demolishes Crumbling Trump Plaza Tower in ‘Controlled Implosion’
    Former President Donald Trump’s Atlantic City hotel—once one of the hottest attractions in the area—was demolished on Wednesday morning when 3,000 sticks of dynamite were used to create “a controlled implosion.”
    The Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino was formally shuttered in 2014 and the crumbling structure left behind had since become a danger to the community. City officials last year declared the building to be an “imminent hazard” after several of the 34-story building’s panels peeled off and plummeted at least 15 stories to the ground.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  99. So, Puerto Rico has no ability to govern itself and provide and secure their people’s rights? Again, show me the referendum results that show me that they want or need you to secure their rights. This strikes me as a bit of paternalism.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 2/17/2021 @ 8:03 am

    That’s exactly what is sounds like. Those brown people need help and of course they will vote Democrat to aid their benefactors.

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac)

  100. So, Puerto Rico has no ability to govern itself and provide and secure their people’s rights? Again, show me the referendum results that show me that they want or need you to secure their rights. This strikes me as a bit of paternalism.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 2/17/2021 @ 8:03 am

    That’s exactly what is sounds like. Those brown people need help and of course they will vote Democrat to aid their benefactors.

    Hoi Polloi (15cfac) — 2/17/2021 @ 8:34 am

    Except for the part where I said If the people of PR want to be a state that right should be honored. Did some part of that confuse you?

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  101. “In CA it’s any random day during the summer?”

    Random summer days don’t see 3M+ people without power.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  102. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/17/2021 @ 7:57 am

    That’s your interpretation, frosty.

    You are twisting yourself into a pretzel. It’s not “my” interpretation. It’s what he said and it’s the historical understanding of the term. This “my/your interpretation” nonsense is getting out of hand.

    You’ve mentioned before that you get exhausted parsing language so I’ll try to keep this short. It’s call “the” Big “lie”. It’s not called “a” big lie or the big “lies”, i.e. it’s a singular noun that has an understood meaning. That hitler told other lies, or nazi propaganda generally, isn’t a reference to “the Big lie”. It’s similar to how the Moon Landing is generally accepted as referring to a specific event and is distinct from the missions to the moon or some other phrase referring to the Apollo program as a whole.

    Your argument is breaking down to, you know “the Big lie” refers to something specific, you know you aren’t using it correctly, but you just like the meme and you want to keep using it. Let me help you a bit, if you want to use it correctly you should say Trump is accusing [fill in the blank] of telling the Big lie. I know it’s not as catchy or as easy to work into a sentence. When you get it backwards it just makes you look ignorant of the term. When you make it clear you aren’t ignorant but are using it incorrectly on purpose it makes you look lazy.

    Time123, I’d like call your attention to how I didn’t minimize or deflect. I’ve given Paul helpful tips on how to attack DJT w/o tripping on a rake.

    frosty (f27e97)

  103. 67. aphrael (4c4719) — 2/16/2021 @ 10:45 pm

    I don’t see how we admit DC as a state without making the amendment that gives DC 3 electors *in effect* give 3 electors to the President. I think a constitutional amendment is required for DC statehood to work *in a practical sense*.

    The plan is to shrink the District of Columbia to a very small footprint, including mainly the Capitol and the White House and the mall, and to admit the rest of it as a state, to be called Douglas Commonwealth, so it would still be DC. But then Congress and the White House would also be DC.

    That would leave 3 electoral votes to be cast by very few people – mostly homeless people who registered to vote, since presumably there’d be no residential housing for individuals left in the district. But maybe staff of some members of Congress might sleep in some of the offices of members of Congresc and declare that as their home.

    I went through a scenario or two. A third party, hooping it would be a virtual tie and have the election be decided in the House might arrange for a lot of people to camp out for a month or more near the Capitol but still within the new boundaries of the District of Columbia. There might be some competition. Maybe the Republican Party could make an attempt at getting these 3 Electoral votes from that new pocket borough.

    There’d temporarily (unless DC is admitted very fast) 541 Electoral votes total with 271 needed to win, and a tie impossible, if all electoral votes were cast, later dropping to 540 total after the 2030 Census (if no other states were admitted and the number of members of the House of Representatives wasn’t changed.)

    Of course another way to handle it would be for Congress to repeal the current election law for the District of Columbia and fail to arrange for electors to be appointed from the now extremely shrunken remainder of the District of Columbia.

    You’d need some comity between the parties to see that no electors were appointed when the same party had the House, the Senate, and the presidency.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  104. 66. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 2/16/2021 @ 10:14 pm

    The Commission is just a political platform to torture Republicans a while longer. Biden’s DoJ should just arrest Trump, Don Jr, and everyone else who was exhorting people to go straighten out Congress.

    But that’s not what they were saying.

    They were telling them to go to a rally that had a permit, obtained by Ali Alexander, and there is Alex Jones on video, with a bullhorn, and Ali Alexander standing next to him, telling people to go where he directed them, where they could hear Trump speak.

    Here’s a link to the webpage of the “Stop the Steal” campaign that Trump was associated with, as seen on the morning of January 6, 2021:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20210106005050/https://wildprotest.com

    (The message was not updated. They already had 13 Senators)

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  105. R.I.P.

    Rush Limbaugh ‘has assumed room temperature.’

    God wants his talent back.

    Met him. He smelled; literally. Bad ‘BO.’ Radio man; TV not his forte; stellar marketer, though; immeasurably helped by Reagan killing the Fairness Doctrine.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  106. Davethulhu (6ba00b) — 2/17/2021 @ 8:59 am

    I’ve seen latest round of articles about how the TX issue is worse than CA. I also noticed this seems to be coming from a lot of outlets in CA. The silver lining for a lot of Texans is this might discourage more c-word from migrating there.

    I think it’s sort of ridiculous to compare them which is why I was poking fun but what the heck

    On Wednesday, October 9, around 12 AM PDT, PG&E began to shut off power to many regions, as a pre-emptive measure to help avoid wildfires caused by electric lines. The shutdown of nearly 25,000 miles (40,000 km) of electric lines was expected to affect more than 2 million people, of PG&E’s 16 million total served. Power was projected to remain off for up to several days after the high winds subside as all of the shutdown lines must be inspected for wind damage.

    On October 26, PG&E announced that it would be shutting off power for 940,000 customers in Northern California, again with the rationale of preventing more wildfires. This “is the second major shutoff by PG&E this month.”

    On October 27, over 1 million customers and a total of over 3,000,000 individuals were affected. A total of more than 3 million people across California were without power that day.

    I stand corrected on the random summer days part. Also, October is probably better considered fall. I think you’re picking 3M+ just to stay above that 10/27 number and the number I’m seeing out of TX is 2.7M.

    frosty (f27e97)

  107. AJ_Liberty (a4ff25) — 2/17/2021 @ 4:39 am

    Simple question, how does Puerto Rico statehood benefit the American people? Puerto Rico is a very poor island….it has a per capita income half of that of Mississippi. Not surprisingly, it also has very high crime rates.

    Nothing like Louisiana, which has the highest murder rate in the country even excluding New Orleans, unless Mississippi has slipped into the lead.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/15/upshot/why-does-louisiana-consistently-lead-the-nation-in-murders.html

    A New York Times article in 1998 pointed to “a divergence that has persisted for as long as records have been kept” in which “the former slaveholding states of the old Confederacy all rank in the top 20 states for murder, led by Louisiana, with a rate of 17.5 murders per 100,000 people in 1996.”

    A study of judicial records from 1800 to 1860 found that the murder rate in South Carolina was four times higher than in Massachusetts. More than a century later, in 1996, the ratio was similar. And in 2018, the murder rate was 7.7 per 100,000 in South Carolina and 2.0 in Massachusetts — again, about four times as high…

    ..Criminologists tread carefully in inferring causation. For example, there is no consensus on the main reason for the significant drop in crime in the United States over most of the last three decades. And there is no consensus on what caused the big national rise in murders this past year.

    There are some federal laws that won’t well in Puerto Rico and as a state it couldn’t be exempted from them unless many states were.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  108. 105.

    Rush Limbaugh ‘has assumed room temperature.’

    It’s the way it happen with almost all celebrities suffering from cancer. When it gets close they don’t say – and the treatment speeds it along maybe. He was broadcasting a week or two ago.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  109. Rush Limbaugh is on the air, clear as day. But the 12:30 pm news on WOR 710 also says he’s passed away.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  110. This “my/your interpretation” nonsense is getting out of hand.

    And that is your interpretation, frosty.
    I get it. You don’t like it when “Big Lie” is attached to your president, but when a guy executes a massive lie for months on end, accusing others of fraud and stealing while doing his own share of stealing, it is what it is.
    And speaking of parsing, according to your own link, the term is defined as “a gross distortion or misrepresentation of the facts, especially when used as a propaganda device by a politician or official body”. What you’re doing is ignoring the principle of the Big Lie by applying it strictly to the circumstance in Hitler’s little book.
    Oh, and no one died and appointed you Grand Arbiter of how a phrase is to be used.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  111. Puerto Rican statehood would be a huge international strategic blunder. It is fear of being stuck with Puerto Rico which has kept other world powers from attempting major incursions into the Caribbean.

    nk (1d9030) — 2/17/2021 @ 6:29 am

    Puerto Rico, the bulwark of the Caribbean! Comedy gold!

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  112. @106. The CA power grid is too often shutdown due to poor maintenance policies – and fears of lawsuit for starting wildfires. In Texas, a GOP controlled state, it’s just poor planning. Still, how often does it get this cold there? But then, once every 30 years is enough. Hence, the need for basic, standardized national building codes for infrastructure ops are long overdue.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  113. RIP Mr. Limbaugh.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  114. …..In Texas, a GOP controlled state, it’s just poor planning. Still, how often does it get this cold there? …..

    Texas has been here before. Almost a fifth of the capacity in the Electricity Reliability Council of Texas’ area failed in February 2011, during another unexpectedly ferocious winter snap. Apart from nuclear plants, all types of units went offline. Wind barely figured in the mix then. That was the state’s coldest winter weather since the freeze of Christmas 1989 — which was also the first time in history ERCOT implemented shutoffs to cope. Wind turbines were conspicuous by their utter absence back then.

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  115. Your argument is breaking down to, you know “the Big lie” refers to something specific, you know you aren’t using it correctly, but you just like the meme and you want to keep using it. Let me help you a bit, if you want to use it correctly you should say Trump is accusing [fill in the blank] of telling the Big lie. I know it’s not as catchy or as easy to work into a sentence. When you get it backwards it just makes you look ignorant of the term. When you make it clear you aren’t ignorant but are using it incorrectly on purpose it makes you look lazy.

    Time123, I’d like call your attention to how I didn’t minimize or deflect. I’ve given Paul helpful tips on how to attack DJT w/o tripping on a rake.

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/17/2021 @ 9:02 am

    True. 😀

    Time123 (457a1d)

  116. Time123 (d1bf33) — 2/17/2021 @ 6:44 am

    I guess it depends on how you feel about the rights of people in general and US citizens specifically. I get no direct benefit Parlor or Instagram existing. But I think they have a right to do so.

    I think it comes down to whether the citizens of PR want to become a state. So, far I haven’t seen much evidence of that. They seem fine with the current arrangement as is.

    That some people are now saying it’s our patriotic duty to convince them otherwise is not only not compelling it tends to make me resistant to the idea. That this patriotic duty is also being cited by people with a history of (let’s see how to word this) not having a high opinion of patriotism as a concept, I’m even more resistant to the idea.

    frosty (f27e97)

  117. Colorado City (TX) mayor resigns, responds to his controversial Facebook post
    ……
    (Mayor Tim) Boyd acknowledged the resignation Tuesday afternoon while responding to criticism he received for a controversial Facebook post.

    Tuesday morning, Boyd voiced his frustrations about residents who he said called him to complain about power and water outages.

    “If you don’t have electricity, you step up and come up with a game plan to keep your family warm and safe,” Boyd said. “Get off your ass and take care of your own family!”
    …….
    Tuesday afternoon, Boyd posted another message.

    “I would never want to hurt the elderly or anyone that is in true need of help to be left to fend for themselves,” said Boyd. “I was only making the statement that those folks that are too lazy to get up and fend for themselves but are capable should not be dealt a handout. I apologize for the wording and some of the phrases that were used!”
    …….
    Full text from original post:

    No one owes you or your family anything; nor is it the local governments responsibility to support you during trying times like this! Sink or swim, it’s your choice! The City and County, along with power providers or any other service owes you NOTHING!

    I’m sick and tired of people looking for a d*mn hand out! If you don’t have electricity you step up and come up with a game plan to keep your family warm and safe. If you have no water you deal with out and think outside of the box to survive and supply water to your family. If you were sitting at home in the cold because you have no power and are sitting there waiting for someone to come rescue you because your lazy is direct result of your raising! Only the strong will survive and the week (sic) will perish.

    Folks, God Has given us the tools to support ourselves in times like this. This is sadly a product of a socialist government where they feed people to believe that the FEW work and others will become dependent for handouts. Am I sorry that you have been dealing without electricity and water; yes! But I’ll be damned if I’m going to provide for anyone that is capable of doing it themselves! We have lost sight of those in need and those that take advantage of the system and mesh them into one group!! Bottom line, quit crying and looking for a handout! Get off your ass and take care of your own family!

    Bottom line – DON’T BE A PART OF A PROBLEM, BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION!

    ……..

    Paragraph breaks added for clarity.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  118. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/17/2021 @ 9:34 am

    Oh, and no one died and appointed you Grand Arbiter of how a phrase is to be used.

    chump don’t want the help, chump don’t get the help

    frosty (f27e97)

  119. Time123 (d1bf33) — 2/17/2021 @ 6:44 am

    I guess it depends on how you feel about the rights of people in general and US citizens specifically. I get no direct benefit Parlor or Instagram existing. But I think they have a right to do so.

    I think it comes down to whether the citizens of PR want to become a state. So, far I haven’t seen much evidence of that. They seem fine with the current arrangement as is.

    That some people are now saying it’s our patriotic duty to convince them otherwise is not only not compelling it tends to make me resistant to the idea. That this patriotic duty is also being cited by people with a history of (let’s see how to word this) not having a high opinion of patriotism as a concept, I’m even more resistant to the idea.

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/17/2021 @ 9:50 am

    My comment was in reply to AJ’s question about what benefit there was to “the American people” of PR becoming a state. In previous comments I agreed that it was a decision left to the residents of the territory.

    Last year there was a slim majority in favor of statehood.

    I haven’t seen anyone claiming that it’s our patriotic duty. The Dem’s favor it because it will give them a political advantage in the near term.

    A referendum of the status of Puerto Rico was held on November 3, 2020, concurrently with the general election. The Referendum was announced by Puerto Rico Governor Wanda Vázquez Garced on May 16, 2020. This was the sixth referendum held on the status of Puerto Rico, with the previous one having taken place in 2017. This was the first referendum with a simple yes-or-no question, with voters having the option of voting for or against becoming a U.S. state. The New Progressive Party (PNP), of whom Vázquez is a member, supports statehood, while the opposition Popular Democratic Party (PDP) and Puerto Rican Independence Party (PIP) oppose it.

    The referendum was non-binding, as the power to grant statehood lies with the US Congress. The referendum was not approved by the US Department of Justice. The party platforms of both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party have affirmed for decades Puerto Rico’s right to self-determination and to be admitted as a state, at least in theory, but individual Republican legislators have been more skeptical. For example, former Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell in 2019 refused to allow a statehood vote in the Senate and called statehood for Puerto Rico “government overreach.”[1]

    Based on the completed official election night count, the option to pursue statehood won the referendum 52.52%–47.48%.[2]

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  120. Time123 (d1bf33) — 2/17/2021 @ 10:07 am

    My comment was in reply

    Yea, I left my comment idle before hitting submit and didn’t pay attention to that back and forth. I’m not trying to wade into that.

    I haven’t seen anyone claiming that it’s our patriotic duty.

    Not literally because no one is really that obvious but that’s the sentiment

    Victor (4959fb) — 2/17/2021 @ 5:42 am

    is trying to invoke. He’s citing the right thing(tm) and democracy and representation and mom and apple pie. I don’t think he’s an anomaly. I think he’s bringing a flavor of what we can expect in the push to get more senators.

    frosty (f27e97)

  121. I haven’t seen anyone claiming that it’s our patriotic duty.

    Not literally because no one is really that obvious but that’s the sentiment

    Victor (4959fb) — 2/17/2021 @ 5:42 am

    is trying to invoke. He’s citing the right thing(tm) and democracy and representation and mom and apple pie. I don’t think he’s an anomaly. I think he’s bringing a flavor of what we can expect in the push to get more senators.

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/17/2021 @ 10:23 am

    Victor offered that as part of the conversation with AJ. Where the question was being raised “why allow PR to be a state”.

    There’s really only 2 answers: Political advantage or because as US citizens they have the right to apply for statehood. It’s a principled / moral position, because there isn’t a strategic or economic reason to do it. FWIW both parties have had support for PR statehood as part of their party platform for a while.

    I’m sure if this picks up steam we will see all sorts of justifications. But to me the answer is simple. If they want to be a state they have a right to be a state and pathway should be provided. If I were king there would be some requirements about public corruption and infrastructure and vote to make them a state would come with a plan to help bring them up to parity. I’d also want a huge investment in teaching English as well as Spanish in PR. But that’s hypothetical, I’m not convinced they want to be a state.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  122. You’ve set your terms narrowly to suit your political agenda, frosty. I don’t accept your terms.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  123. Time123 (d1bf33) — 2/17/2021 @ 10:39 am

    If I were king there would be some requirements about public corruption and infrastructure and vote to make them a state would come with a plan to help bring them up to parity.

    I don’t know PR so this really isn’t meant to be a sarcastic question, but are they really worse than LA or IL? Those states have a history of governors going to jail.

    I’d also want a huge investment in teaching English as well as Spanish in PR.

    This doesn’t bother me. We’ve already got a large number of Spanish speakers spread through the US. I think there are school districts near me that have predominantly Spanish-speaking students.

    I think the bigger question is why not other territories? And more generally why not expansion in general? If a group of people have a right to be Americans then why some groups and not others. I know we’re talking about territories but Guam was originally part of Spain and now it’s not. I feel like there are people in Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevi Leon, etc. that have a right to be Americans too. And what about those oil-rich Alberta-Americans?

    Personally, I’m in favor of going the other direction but it’s a question worth asking.

    frosty (f27e97)

  124. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/17/2021 @ 10:54 am

    You’ve set your terms narrowly to suit your political agenda, frosty. I don’t accept your terms.

    Now that’s a pot looking for a kettle to call names.

    frosty (f27e97)

  125. I’d also want a huge investment in teaching English as well as Spanish in PR.

    This doesn’t bother me. We’ve already got a large number of Spanish speakers spread through the US. I think there are school districts near me that have predominantly Spanish-speaking students.

    I’m fine with them teaching spanish and using it in PR, but I’d like everyone in the US to be able to speak English.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  126. I think the bigger question is why not other territories? And more generally why not expansion in general? If a group of people have a right to be Americans then why some groups and not others. I know we’re talking about territories but Guam was originally part of Spain and now it’s not. I feel like there are people in Sonora, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Nuevi Leon, etc. that have a right to be Americans too. And what about those oil-rich Alberta-Americans?

    Personally, I’m in favor of going the other direction but it’s a question worth asking.

    frosty (f27e97) — 2/17/2021 @ 10:59 am

    I think having a voice in how you’re governed is a basic human right. If they want to be states they should have a path to do that.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  127. Now that’s a pot looking for a kettle to call names.

    Whatever it takes to deny that Trump told his Big Lie, no?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  128. The way the term “BIG LIE” is used ordinarily, it means Josef Goebbels telling his propaganda (based on an error about that being him describing what he himself did.)

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joseph-goebbels-on-the-quot-big-lie-quot

    “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

    It’s especially quoted with only the first sentence.

    While that’s maybe some of what he did, it was not a confession or a boast.

    https://www.shmoop.com/quotes/the-big-lie.html

    Goebbels wasn’t talking about himself here, though. He was talking about the English, whom he believed [? – should be claimed] “keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous” (source).

    That source says:

    Quotes “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” and “The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed.” are widely and incorrectly attributed to Goebbels.

    It is probable that these are the paraphrases of the Goebbels’ text “Churchill’s Lie Factory” where he said: “The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.” – Jospeh Goebbels, “Aus Churchills Lügenfabrik,” 12. january 1941, Die Zeit ohne Beispiel

    See also:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

    Though the following supposed quotation of Joseph Goebbels has been repeated in numerous books and articles and on thousands of web pages, none of them has cited a primary source. According to the research and reasoning of Randall Bytwerk, it is an unlikely thing for Goebbels to have said.[9]

    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

    and then it cites the quote about Churchill, which appears in an article he wrote dated 12 January 1941.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  129. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/17/2021 @ 11:20 am

    Whatever it takes to deny that Trump told his Big Lie, no?

    Is ad hominem all you’ve got left? Did you just not read my comment?

    Let me help you a bit, if you want to use it correctly you should say Trump is accusing [fill in the blank] of telling the Big lie.

    I think you’re being dishonest with your previous “I’m not saying that Trump is a Nazi” comment because you are doing that. I think it’s ridiculous comparing R’s or DJT to a murderous group of evil thugs who brutally murdered millions of innocent people and triggered a horrible world war. I think you deserve far more mockery than I’ve sent your way. But it’s possible for you to frame DJT in the Big lie narrative if that’s what floats your boat. I’m even telling you how to do it. You should say thank you.

    frosty (f27e97)

  130. I think you’re being dishonest with your previous “I’m not saying that Trump is a Nazi” comment because you are doing that.

    I think your narrow use of Big Lie is part ridiculous and part stupid. Your wiki included one definition, which I quoted, and here’s another:

    a false statement of outrageous magnitude employed as a propaganda measure in the belief that a lesser falsehood would not be credible.

    My use of the term is entirely appropriate, and one can use it without calling people Nazis.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  131. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 2/17/2021 @ 2:24 pm

    You’ve convinced me. Is there anything I can do to encourage you to use this more often?

    frosty (f27e97)

  132. We’re lucky Biden is taking a different take on China

    President Biden continued in his response that he is “not going to speak out against” the Chinese Communist Party’s belligerent actions in Hong Kong, against the Uighurs, or in Taiwan.

    “I point out to him no American president can be sustained as a president, if he doesn’t reflect the values of the United States,” the US president continued. “And so the idea is that I am not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he’s doing with the Uighurs in western mountains of China and Taiwan — trying to end the one China policy by making it forceful … [Xi] gets it.”

    “Culturally there are different norms that each country and their leaders are expected to follow,” he continued.

    The “norms” in China, as shown in a recent BBC News exposé, include systemic torture and rape occurring in Uighur concentration camps.

    The interesting thing is that the WH transcript has

    And so the idea I’m not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he’s doing with the Uyghurs in western mountains of China and Taiwan, trying to end the One China policy by making it forceful — I said — and by the — he said he — he gets it. Culturally, there are different norms that each country and they — their leaders — are expected to follow.

    Anyone notice the change? Granted this is standard Biden mumbo-jumbo that is almost unintelligible but I wonder which one is correct. The video on YouTube is “And so the idea I’m not going to speak out against”.

    I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he will speak out against it, even though technically he really doesn’t complete the sentence, but what does “Culturally, there are different norms that each country and they — their leaders — are expected to follow” mean? This looks a bit like a “boys will be boys” sort of “let China get its unity thing going” sort of comment.

    frosty (f27e97)

  133. You convinced me. Is there anything I can do to encourage you to use this more often?

    You can try more sarcasm.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  134. Biden made excuses for speaking out against things the government of China did. And told Xi not to mind it. He has to do it. It’s our culture.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  135. This is the kind of an apology the State Department sometimes makes for what the press says – we have a free press.

    This is half OK for when the press does it – it’s an easy way to wave off complaints.

    But here Biden is disassociating himself from what he himself says.

    He’s saying don’t take it to heart. Ignore what I say about Hong Kong, or the Uighurs, or Taiwan.

    You know something? Either he means it or he doesn’t. Maybe Xi should also ignore what he says about climate change? I know he didn’t complain about it.

    Biden did complain about China not being open about the origin of the coronavirus. (By the way Xi only had that conversation after the WHO had “cleared” China – except like it seems they didn’t. They just “cleared” them from a lab accident. and they only played along a little with the idea that it came from frozen food from Australia. Frozen food, maybe, they said. But not from Australia.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)

  136. The New York Times tries to explain what he thinks is a BIG LIE. And classifies Trump’s lies.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/10/world/europe/trump-truth-lies-power.html

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/magazine/trump-coup.html

    Thanks to technological capacity and personal talent, Donald Trump lied at a pace perhaps unmatched by any other leader in history. For the most part these were small lies, and their main effect was cumulative. To believe in all of them was to accept the authority of a single man, because to believe in all of them was to disbelieve everything else. Once such personal authority was established, the president could treat everyone else as the liars; he even had the power to turn someone from a trusted adviser into a dishonest scoundrel with a single tweet. Yet so long as he was unable to enforce some truly big lie, some fantasy that created an alternative reality where people could live and die, his pre-fascism fell short of the thing itself.

    Some of his lies were, admittedly, medium-size: that he was a successful businessman; that Russia did not support him in 2016; that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. Such medium-size lies were the standard fare of aspiring authoritarians in the 21st century. In Poland the right-wing party built a martyrdom cult around assigning blame to political rivals for an airplane crash that killed the nation’s president. Hungary’s Viktor Orban blames a vanishingly small number of Muslim refugees for his country’s problems. But such claims were not quite big lies; they stretched but did not rend what Hannah Arendt called “the fabric of factuality.”

    One historical big lie discussed by Arendt is Joseph Stalin’s explanation of starvation in Soviet Ukraine in 1932-33. The state had collectivized agriculture, then applied a series of punitive measures to Ukraine that ensured millions would die. Yet the official line was that the starving were provocateurs, agents of Western powers who hated socialism so much they were killing themselves. A still grander fiction, in Arendt’s account, is Hitlerian anti-Semitism: the claims that Jews ran the world, Jews were responsible for ideas that poisoned German minds, Jews stabbed Germany in the back during the First World War. Intriguingly, Arendt thought big lies work only in lonely minds; their coherence substitutes for experience and companionship.

    In November 2020, reaching millions of lonely minds through social media, Trump told a lie that was dangerously ambitious: that he had won an election that in fact he had lost. This lie was big in every pertinent respect: not as big as “Jews run the world,” but big enough. The significance of the matter at hand was great: the right to rule the most powerful country in the world and the efficacy and trustworthiness of its succession procedures. The level of mendacity was profound. The claim was not only wrong, but it was also made in bad faith, amid unreliable sources. It challenged not just evidence but logic: Just how could (and why would) an election have been rigged against a Republican president but not against Republican senators and representatives? Trump had to speak, absurdly, of a “Rigged (for President) Election.”

    I suppose the difference they have from a small lie to a medium size one is the degree of deviation from the truth, or whether the small lie has more elements of opinion. The big lie requires you to believe an increasing number of people are lying.

    Sammy Finkelman (1e81da)


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