Patterico's Pontifications

2/11/2021

President Trump Is Not the One on Trial

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



It’s difficult to say Trump is really on trial when the outcome as to Trump is already known. It is, instead, the Republican party that is on trial. They are demonstrating to the American people just how overwhelming a case of Trump’s unfitness for office they are willing to ignore.

With every day, the evidence piles up. Really, all it ought to take is watching a video like this all the way through.

But we have also seen evidence of Trump denigrating Pence during the riot, and tweeting out “this is what you get when you steal an election” style tweets. Of his involvement in the planning process for January 6. On and on and on. And the GOP could not care less.

This does not reflect well on them, and they ought to pay a price. I suspect they will.

186 Responses to “President Trump Is Not the One on Trial”

  1. The question is simple
    Is the party representing the wishes of the voters?

    J. M. (ae9309)

  2. Yes. This. I have been reluctant to accuse the entire GOP of being in Trump’s camp, and I don’t know that they are there ideologically, but their resistance to facts and law in this trial has been astonishing.

    They finally lost me the moment that 44 Senators — the same number of Americans who fave their lives on Flight 93 — cannot free themselves enough to vote for the only credible view of the Impeachment power. To think a number of these Senators (including Hawley and Cruz) clerked for SC justices (who, no doubt now view that with regret).

    Instead of a party that was hijacked by the desperate, we have a party that has gone full Stockholm Syndrome. It may be that the party as we knew it is dead. It is now this weird Borg Collective, with Trump as Locutus. The master-mind.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  3. If I might make a suggestion to Patterico — use your side-blog (not the paid one) to discuss what a new party, or recovered GOP, might adopt as planks. Along with what needs to happen in CA to form such. The requirements for a new party seem daunting, with tons of signatures, but mass communication has never been easier and all you need is 1 or 2% of GOP registrants to sign up. Surely more than that are upset.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  4. *gave

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  5. Is the party representing the wishes of the voters?

    Some voters. Trump never got more than 30-some% of the vote in contested primaries. He was able to use party newcomers and the politically homeless to hijack a disunified party. Now, his control over the mob he brought is enough to destroy anyone who wavers. But probably not enough to put them over the top in any upcoming election, as we saw in Georgia. Georgia did not elect two Democrats because the Democrats suddenly started making sense, but because the GOP had become so toxic.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  6. Yep. It’s the American people that are on trial. Maybe they just need to be rounded up and reeducated.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  7. Well 40%+ of the American voting population anyway. And the question on trial is how long will they continue to embrace a man who gathered a mob, knew it was a violent mob, told it to march on the Capitol, watched t.v. while they stormed the Capitol, was told by Tuberville that Pence and his nuclear football had to be evacuated, attacked Pence immediately afterward by tweet, and hasn’t apologized since.

    So yeah, if you continue to embrace this guy you’re guilty of being a danger to this democracy and to the rest of us.

    Victor (4959fb)

  8. Yep. It’s the American people that are on trial.

    Nope, it’s just the GOP on trial. Patterico channeled Truax, or vice versa. Trump will get acquitted, leaving a fractured GOP that is still led by an unhinged immoral actor.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  9. @NJRob@6 How does pointing out that the current stance of the Republican Party is willfully ignoring the facts somehow equate itself with “Maybe they (the American People) just need to be rounded up and reeducated?”

    Nic (896fdf)

  10. Nic,

    this show trial is worthy of the Soviet Union. It is a farce. It’s to tell the American people we don’t care who you want to support. You will only be allowed to vote for those we deem acceptable.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  11. @9
    maybe because after all the court investigations, and all of the media telling them there was nothing wrong with the election, and all of the Biden rallies….
    they cant believe it was a free and fair election?

    J. W. Morris (ae9309)

  12. @NJRob@10 Trump ran for president. No one stopped anyone from voting for him or from supporting him. No one is stopping anyone from supporting him even now.

    The trial is not about who anyone supported or who anyone voted for. It is about the legal way in which our democracy functions. Trump incited a mob to attack the entire Legislative branch (and part of the executive branch) of government. That is not a legal.

    @JWMorris@11 Telling people they are misinformed and/or wrong is not rounding them up and putting them in reeducation camps, though.

    Nic (896fdf)

  13. Facts not in evidence.

    Now where did the propaganda video come from?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  14. …they cant believe it was a free and fair election?

    Why is it that they can’t believe it, despite losing 64 out of 65 court cases and despite there being no legitimate evidence of serious fraud?
    Could it be that Trump lied over and over, and his coterie of followers, enablers and cultists amplified his Big Lie?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  15. @ 14

    J. W. Morris (ae9309)

  16. Shorter Trumpian response:

    (hands over ears)

    I CAN’T HEAR YOU!
    I CAN’T HEAR YOU!
    I CAN’T HEAR YOU!
    I CAN’T HEAR YOU!
    I CAN’T HEAR YOU!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  17. Question: Does Trump still believe he will be restored to his “rightful” office?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  18. @14 I have not a clue. If you cant accept 64 thorough investigations, with evidence taken, exhibits, depositions, expert testimony, source codes open for inspection….. Well then I guess doubts are always going to be there.
    Besides Facebook has told us many times about the false news. Who can question them?

    [sorry about double post]

    J. W. Morris (ae9309)

  19. If Trump wins here, he will be indicted for the same crimes. Whether that’s incitement, insurrection, sedition or outright treason is an interesting question and I don’t know where the dividing line is — clearly someone was waging war against the United States.

    If he is convicted here, that probably won’t happen, but if not he can only be disqualified by being convicted of certain crimes. By a DC jury and/or judge.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  20. Rob,
    How is telling people they are doing something wrong and immoral equate to “not allowing” them to vote? It’s weird how insistent conservatives have on being told what they are doing is right, and how denying them that boon is equated to cancelling or oppression.

    Victor (4959fb)

  21. Yep. It’s the American people that are on trial.

    A comfortable majority of the American electorate voted against Trump — both times. A clear majority of the American people favor convicting Trump.

    Trumpers are telling themselves a self-serving fiction when they claim that only Trump and his acolytes represent “the American people,” or at least the “ordinary Americans,” while everyone who isn’t unconditionally loyal to Trump represents a sinister cabal of elitists and traitors.

    The Trumpist part of the GOP can’t accept the fact that a great many real Americans actually disagree with them — and that the American system permits disagreement.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  22. Now where did the propaganda video come from?
    NJRob (eb56c3) — 2/11/2021 @ 10:36 am

    Many of the insurrectionists left a handy trail of evidence by posting their own videos on Parler. There are also security cameras in and around the Capitol.

    The insinuation that the Dems faked it all is pretty much in keeping with the Trumper insistence that we should disbelieve what our own ears and eyes tell us about Trump.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  23. If the impeachment trial concludes as expected, can we expect Mr. Trump to:

    a) proclaim his “complete vindication”

    and/or

    b) to walk down Constitution Avenue and shoot Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Pence?

    John B Boddie (d795fd)

  24. The fuse was lit on January 20, 1981 — and after 40 years, it has finally blown up in their faces.

    “They sow the wind, and reap the whirlwind” (Hosea 8:7)

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  25. I don’t disagree with Patterico very much at all. Trump’s main interest is and always has been self-promotion. There was a growing populist movement and Trump just jumped in front of it in 2015.

    But it drives me crazy to see any issue spun and spun in only one direction.

    The violence on January 6 at the capitol was terrible. It should not have happened and should not be tolerated. Trump should be (and has endlessly been) chastised for encouraging a continued build-up of anger in his base after the electoral college.

    BUT … Insurrection? The vast, vast majority of the rioters left all of their weapons at home – not the actions of an insurrection. Once they were in the capitol, most had absolutely no idea what to do next. They took selfies in the speaker’s office, stole her podium, and generally goofed off.

    Mike S (4125f8)

  26. @19. Better and much more savvy citizens than mere Congresscritters over the decades have tried to take Trump down and failed. He’s beaten a lot of raps. In the end, expect Ronald McDonald or Colonel Sanders to deliver ultimate ‘justice.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  27. @17. Question- has Trump paid you February’s rent yet or stiffed you- as is the Trump-style- and still living in your head for free? 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  28. @8. ‘Trump will get acquitted, leaving a fractured GOP that is still led by an unhinged immoral actor.’

    ‘Morality’ is a transient.

    Glorious.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  29. #25 — Physically fighting through police barriers, breaking down doors, doing serious injury to officers, chanting “hang Mike Pence” etc. does not suggest peaceful intent. Do you really believe that none of those people would have done bodily harm to those they were calling “f*****g traitors” if they could have? Why did the guy photographed sitting in Nancy Pelosi’s chair bring a powerful stun gun if he didn’t have the slightest intention of using it? Even a (mostly) unarmed mob can do injury to a smaller number of people.

    The mob went in clearly aiming to use at lease the threat of physical force to change the outcome of an election. That is insurrection, even if it depended more on the fearfulness of politicians than on a militia’s prowess with firearms.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  30. Mike S,

    They missed actually colliding with Pence, representatives and senators by a matter of minutes. And it’s pretty clear some of them had violent intent.

    It’s only because of DC gun laws that they were without guns. But they did have weapons which they used to beat police with.

    And they ransacked offices looking for materials, and stole stuff and broke stuff and injured about 140 police officers. Also trampled to death one of their own and contributed to the shooting death of another, and also to a police officer, somehow.

    And finally, the fact that Trump just set them off without specific instructions shows he was hoping to profit from chaos and the delay of the certification – the basis for his calls to Tuberville. And of course knowing that some wanted to be violent beforehand, and sending them off, he would have been aware that violence was a likely result.

    Insurrections don’t have to be well planned, or smart, or likely to succeed. Trump has a history of making bad plans and taking risky ventures that don’t make a lot of sense. (Three casinos in the same place?). This was one of them. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t an attempt to replace actual constitutional processes with mob rule.

    Victor (4959fb)

  31. BUT … Insurrection? The vast, vast majority of the rioters left all of their weapons at home – not the actions of an insurrection.

    Yes, insurrection, as defined: “an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.” There’s no firearms prerequisite for insurrections to happen. It may have an ill-conceived, half-baked insurrection…

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  32. NJRob: in your view, then, it’s perfectly acceptable for the President to incite a mob to attack the Congress in an attempt to kill members of the Congress and thereby use the threat of being murdered to force the Congress to overturn an election result in defiance of the Congress’s constitutional duties?

    That’s what we’re talking about here.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  33. Kevin M — if the Republicans retake control of the legislature in 2022, can they shut down any prosecution by DC?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  34. #29 and 30

    It was unnecessary and illegal violence, but it is a stretch in one direction to call it an insurrection.

    Just like it is a big stretch in the other direction to call the summer riots “mostly peaceful.”

    Mike S (4125f8)

  35. He’s beaten a lot of raps. In the end, expect Ronald McDonald or Colonel Sanders to deliver ultimate ‘justice.’

    What about Jack Daniel’s, Jim Beam, Capt. Morgan or, irony of ironies, Jose Cuervo? That ish almost took down his much healthier could-have-been son-in-law at the Super Bowl Victory flotilla; I can only imagine how wrecked it could leave a septuagenarian teetotaler with other comorbs.

    urbanleftbehind (9fd5a5)

  36. In earlier thread you pointed out that 70% of republicans and 79% of trump voters agree with trump. Also 15% to 20% of republicans who don’t agree with trump about who won the election still support his policies. It is never trumpets being censored by state republican parties not trump supporters. What part of NO! don’t you never trumpers understand? Never trumpets are starting the rich peoples partys as their is to much dope smoke at libertarian party meetings.

    asset (ce73eb)

  37. Yes, the GOP is on trial, and that includes Tucker Carlson. It’s pretty grotesque, Carlson accusing others of lying about Floyd’s death while himself lying about how he died, telling us not to believe our lying eyes. The autopsy confirmed that it was a homicide.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  38. Asset: I understand why one might support Trump’s *policies*. What I don’t understand is how y’all can look at what happened on January 6 and find it at all defensible.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  39. It was unnecessary and illegal violence, but it is a stretch in one direction to call it an insurrection.

    Wonder if George III muttered that over his morning tea? 😉

    “King George understood that all of the colonists were taking up arms against the Crown… the king issued ‘A Proclamation for Suppressing Rebellion and Sedition.’ The royal proclamation declared that the colonies were in a state of rebellion, and that the Crown would do its utmost to bring an end to hostilities. King George blamed the delegates of the Continental Congress stating the colonists were “misled by dangerous and ill-designing men.” Further, the king announced that the Crown will “accordingly strictly charge and command all of Our Officers as well Civil as Military; and all Our obedient and loyal subjects, to use their utmost Endeavors to withstand and suppress such rebellion.”

    – source, https://www.bostonteapartyship.com/king-george-iii-biography

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  40. @38 Old saying “the enemy of my enemy is my friend!” In world war ll both britian and america ignored stalin’s faults and defended him to beat hitler. As obj once said he may be an sob ;but he is are sob!

    asset (ce73eb)

  41. Kevin M — if the Republicans retake control of the legislature in 2022, can they shut down any prosecution by DC?

    Let’s ask General Flynn.

    They have power over city government, but not (or at least not directly) over the federal judiciary or executive.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  42. @35. Trump doesn’t do booze; he do Stormy types… and this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RMTrnulJQ8

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  43. King George’s position:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti8xeyaSwCI

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. Asset — what is the evil that you think is so terrible that it justifies supporting an attempt by the President to incite an angry mob to kill his own Vice President and interfere with the certification of election results?

    The events of January 6th were playing with the destruction of our entire system of government. In your mind, what justifies that?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  45. If the Democrats win 68 Senate seats in 2022 can they impeach him again on the same charges? Well, if you read the 5th Amendment literally (“nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb”) sure, why not?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. If the Democrats win 68 Senate seats in 2022 can they impeach him again on the same charges? Well, if you read the 5th Amendment literally (“nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb”) sure, why not?

    The Fifth Amendment (and any of the other amendments) don’t apply to impeachments, only to criminal trials.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  47. Rip, as it says “in jeopardy of life and limb” it clearly does not apply.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. Part of the (ridiculous) Republican argument on this issue is that it opens the door to impeaching long-dead figures like Lincoln.

    If we end up going down that road, can we start off by impeaching Wilson? Please?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  49. OTOH, I do not believe that one can be compelled to testify against themselves in an impeachment, or have the papers, person or effects searched without a warrant, nor can people be prevented fro talking about it, protesting it, printing lies about it or praying to God regarding it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. Part of the (ridiculous) Republican argument on this issue is that it opens the door to impeaching long-dead figures like Lincoln.

    There is no penalty that can be imposed on a dead person. In Trump’s case, there can be one imposed. See the difference?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  51. Kevin M — of course I see the difference. I think their argument is inane.

    But I can also see an outcome where, for example, they retaliate for Trump’s impeachment (the next time they take control of the House) by impeaching Obama or Clinton, and from there it’s just a slippery slope to actually trying to impeach dead presidents for symbolic reasons, a form of rallying your base.

    So i’m jokingly asking that if that’s the road we’re going down, can we start with Wilson, because a formal condemnation of the man from the legislature would be sort of nice.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  52. That the defense had to reach to such absurdities shows you just how little support they found in the Constitution, law or precedence.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. But I can also see an outcome where, for example, they retaliate for Trump’s impeachment (the next time they take control of the House) by impeaching Obama or Clinton

    And they could. Such things are not justiciable. But most things that are not justiciable are open to redress at the voting booth. Besides, the GOP won’t be around in this form much longer if they follow Trump any further.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  54. …..actually trying to impeach dead presidents for symbolic reasons….

    It would have the same effect as pardoning a dead person.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  55. Congress can, it seems, pass a law imposing a surtax on everyone’s 2017 income. Perfectly legal. It could declare all Roth IRAs taxable. Not a problem. Of course, the voters might not feel happy about it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  56. Kevin M @2.

    cannot free themselves enough to vote for the only credible view of the Impeachment power. To think a number of these Senators (including Hawley and Cruz) clerked for SC justices (who, no doubt now view that with regret).

    Ted Cruz actually wrote that in fact the view of the impeachment power he voted against was in fact correct, but he voted against it because he claimed he thought it was not good for the country to pursue the impeachment.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  57. it is a stretch in one direction to call it an insurrection.

    Because it failed?
    The Trumper radicals used physical force — and even deadly force — in an effort to overturn an election. They portrayed everyone in government who wouldn’t contrive to reinstall Trump in power as their enemy. Some were promising “civil war.” They perpetrated a violent attack on the legislature and the electoral system — an attack that could very well have resulted in a lot more injury and more deaths than it did.

    It fits the definition of “insurrection” as quoted by Mr. Montague.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  58. Ted Cruz actually wrote that in fact the view of the impeachment power he voted against was in fact correct, but he voted against it because he claimed he thought it was not good for the country to pursue the impeachment.

    Then he’s a jerk for using a precedent-setting vote to settle a different issue.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. Never trumpets are starting the rich peoples partys

    I wish I were as rich as most of the big Trump-boosters are.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  60. @51

    Kevin M — of course I see the difference. I think their argument is inane.

    But I can also see an outcome where, for example, they retaliate for Trump’s impeachment (the next time they take control of the House) by impeaching Obama or Clinton, and from there it’s just a slippery slope to actually trying to impeach dead presidents for symbolic reasons, a form of rallying your base.

    So i’m jokingly asking that if that’s the road we’re going down, can we start with Wilson, because a formal condemnation of the man from the legislature would be sort of nice.

    aphrael (4c4719) — 2/11/2021 @ 1:28 pm

    Impeachment has de facto turned into another censure when you know the votes aren’t there for removal.

    So, yeah, that’s the direction we’re going.

    We going to impeach FDR for literally ordering concentration camps on US soil? I certainly hope so.

    However, there’s only so many legislative hours in a session… do we really want to go down this road and avoid ‘legislating’???

    whembly (fd0490)

  61. @50. Wrong. And funny coming from a Nixon apologist, too.

    Sully a legacy is a penalty for posterity. Ask Robert E. Lee… or The Big Dick.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  62. @58. Both Cruz and Hawley have been declared ‘co-conspirators’ today by ‘Senator’ Jake Tapper. So that’s settled. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  63. @44 I am making an observation. I am not a trump supporter except we are both populists. I agree with him on china and no free trade sell out of the american workers. Also the democrat establishment is corrupt and some cases like the clintons are evil. Only on immigration policy toward migrant children and the way his administration treated them do have a fundamental disagreement. Political correction sucks like making Hailie Deegan take sensitivity training by nascar.

    asset (ce73eb)

  64. @NJRob@13 facts having, in fact, been entered into evidence. Someone else already answered about how the insurrectionists took video of themselves and then posted them on the internet.

    Nic (896fdf)

  65. @NJRob #13

    What Parler Saw During the Attack on the Capitol

    As supporters of President Donald Trump took part in a violent riot at the Capitol, users of the social media service Parler posted videos of themselves and others joining the fray. ProPublica reviewed thousands of videos uploaded publicly to the service that were archived by a programmer before Parler was taken offline by its web host. Below is a collection of more than 500 videos that ProPublica determined were taken during the events of Jan. 6 and were relevant and newsworthy. Taken together, they provide one of the most comprehensive records of a dark event in American history through the eyes of those who took part.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  66. Besides, the GOP won’t be around in this form much longer if they follow Trump any further.

    Don’t be so sure.

    Their new business model (fascism) does not require actually winning elections.

    Dave (1bb933)

  67. Asset, i’m sorry, but you’re doing more than making an observation. Your comment at #36 clearly says the never trumpers are wrong and that you are opposed to attempts to stand against trump.

    I’m saying that to stand by Trump is to stand by the events of January 6 and ask you why you would do that.

    You responded by saying something about the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

    So again, i’ll repeat the question: what is the terrible thing that you think you are averting by making friends with the people responsible for January 6?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  68. Kevin M – the only way the Republicans won’t be around is if the people make it so. Right now, the Republican base is saying that the Republicans who are turning on Trump should go, and that he and his minions should be their future. They appear to represent 30-35% of the country’s voters.

    What’s the path to make the Republicans not be around if those people don’t change their position?

    I’m going to repeat something i’ve been saying on and off since early fall: I think you are being entirely too optimistic in your analysis of outcomes.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  69. R.I.P. Chick Corea, legendary jazz keyboardist

    Icy (6abb50)

  70. I think what Mike S is saying is the numbers of insurrectionists onhand were few in number compoared to the size of the overall crowd. (5%?)
    Also most of the insurrectionists were using the rally as cover, most went to the Capitol before Trump finished speaking and the others were people who followed.
    The insurrectionists came armed, vested, helmeted and prepared to break windows, and fight with police.
    I got the impression that most of the hard core attackers were agnostic to Trumps words and were there to raise hell regardless to any football coach style rally speech.
    The second wave of people who actually stayed through the part of the speech that was fiery got there after the doors were open and started milling around like a junior high civics class with no adult supervision.

    Neat video and timeline though. Still doesn’t prove Trumps words caused the riot but nice effort. Here’s my main beef. They gilded the lily a bit here and there. (Ask Mike Lee) I’m very harsh on behavior like that from prosecutors because it is a slippery slope that can lead to conviction of an innocent

    steveg (43b7a5)

  71. DCSCA, at 58: Cruz, Lee, and Graham met with Trump’s lawyers today. Can you think of any scenario in which it’s appropriate for some members of the jury to have a private conversation with one side’s attorneys?

    And can anyone tell me why that act, in and of itself, isn’t so severe a violation of the oath of office as to justify expelling them?

    aphrael (4c4719)

  72. @71. Impeachment a political action, not a judicial act. The CJ passed o this farce; OTOH, “Senator” Jake Tapper passed gas on it via CNN.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  73. I got the impression that most of the hard core attackers were agnostic to Trumps words and were there to raise hell regardless to any football coach style rally speech.

    Oh yeah totally, this had nothing to do with the electoral count or Trump lying about how the electoral count would complete the theft of the election. Total accident they sacked the capitol at the same time. Also the noose was really for drying their towels.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  74. 7. Victor (4959fb) — 2/11/2021 @ 9:52 am

    And the question on trial is how long will they continue to embrace a man

    It’s not how long they will embrace him – many are not doing that – it’s how long they will refuse to spurn him.

    who gathered a mob, knew it was a violent mob,

    No he didn’t. He could have known whom he was dealing with.

    The House managers seem to be claiming that since the FBI knew, he knew. Which is a totally unreasonable assumption.

    told it to march on the Capitol

    ig problem. They are still speaking of “the” rally. As if there was only one.

    Here again I retrieve something from the memory hole:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20210106005050/https://wildprotest.com

    Justsecurity also had a screenshot of that amng their materials.

    https://www.justsecurity.org/74622/stopthesteal-timeline-of-social-media-and-extremist-activities-leading-to-1-6-insurrection

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  75. Oh yeah totally, this had nothing to do with the electoral count or Trump lying about how the electoral count would complete the theft of the election. Total accident they sacked the capitol at the same time. Also the noose was really for drying their towels.
    Dustin (4237e0) — 2/11/2021 @ 4:35 pm

    Kinda like these randoms messing up “mostly peaceful” Antifa/BLM protests. I mean, those randoms had nothing to do with Antifa/BLM or any liberal/leftwing politics. They just showed up.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  76. Cruz, Lee, and Graham met with Trump’s lawyers today.

    It was Antifa pretending to be Trump’s lawyers, and crisis actors playing Cruz, Lee, and Graham, and anyway it doesn’t count because they were not sitting on tanks like Yeltsin.

    nk (1d9030)

  77. Trump said he would be there with them. Alex Jones, at the Capitol, told the people there if they went where he was directing them, they’d hear Trump speak.

    If there;s any truth to that, that’s a big indication that Trump ad no idea what would happen. If Donald Trump and Alex Jones conspired together on a cover story, that’s a bg indication that Trump did far more than light a mach. The House managers say he lit a match but he had created kindling.

    Another thing;

    <i? If Trump was calling Tommy Tuberville to ask him to object to more states, (is that story still operative??) he clearly had not run out of non violent options, like the House managers said.

    watched t.v. while they stormed the Capitol, was told by Tuberville that Pence and his nuclear football had to be evacuated, attacked Pence immediately afterward by tweet, and hasn’t apologized since.

    They say Tommy Tiberville told him Mike Pence was being evacuated? And mentioned the nuclear football?

    Mike Pence was evacuated twice. First just off the Senate floor, but quietly; and then about the time when all Senators were evacuated. There would not have been an announcement by the Secret Service or whoever to everybody that they were taking Mike Pence to a secret hiding place. So there is no way Tommy Tuberville could have told Donald Trump something exactly like that.

    And saying Mike Pence has been evacuated doesn’t necessarily mean he was in any danger.

    The managers by the way, said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was taken clear out of the Capitol grounds.

    Why not also Mike Pence? I suppose that by the time they were considering taking Pence far away – maybe he also wanted to stay with his family members and that was a complication – I suppose that by the time they decided to really evacuate Mike Pence they no longer were sure they had an absolutely safe escape route.

    They didn’t know where all the rioters were, or could go by the time they got to where they were going, and consider also there were people milling outside too, and even if they used some tunnels who knows who would be where when they emerged to get into a car. Or maybe it was no longer guaranteed safe to use the tunnels or to get to them, so he stayed on the Capitol grounds. He also had to be back there anyway later, of course.)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  78. And invading the Capitol while Congress is sitting in joint session to count the Electoral Votes, presided over by the Vice President, is like so totally like a race riot where they so like loot stores and like other stuff like that, like totally like.

    nk (1d9030)

  79. Right now, the Republican base is saying that the Republicans who are turning on Trump should go

    The people who have taken over the local party apparatus may be saying so, but the types that Trump’s attracted are 3rd-party small-tent folks. Either they will not last long once Trump is gone, or the party will cease being a major party, as it persists in throwing everyone else out.

    Having been in a 3rd party for a while, I recognize the signs. Intolerance, dogma, constant purity tests and a penchant for extreme positions. In this case, it is coupled with a dominant, self-centered and narcissitic leader who offers no loyalty but demands all.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. 71. They are not a jury. They are judges, but not really that either.

    I suppose they were telling them what to say or what not to say. Graham, Cruz and Mike Lee?

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  81. Trump had two weeks in which he could have pardoned all you came and risked all for him. He did not.

    If I’d been among his minions, facing the destruction of my life in federal court, I think I’d be pissed about that. But maybe I just don’t understand.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  82. @71. Sammy is right. They are NOT a jury. This is NOT a criminal trial. Rehnquist made that point in 1989.

    This is a political question, and they are politicians who are asked to decide it. It does not matter what the law is, or by what standard the matter is “proven”, what matters is their political decision of 1) is this behavior intolerable and/or 2) what decision do their constituents demand?

    Each Senator who votes no should be asked, at every opportunity until they answer: “Were the actions of Donald Trump on and before Jan 6 tolerable or defensible?”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  83. *Trump had two weeks in which he could have pardoned all WHO came and risked all for him. He did not.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. Cruz, Lee, and Graham met with Trump’s lawyers today.

    Panic is setting in.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. Well dang steveg, that’s actually the first criticism of the impeachment I’ve agreed with!

    nate (1f1d55)

  86. Kinda like these randoms messing up “mostly peaceful” Antifa/BLM protests. I mean, those randoms had nothing to do with Antifa/BLM or any liberal/leftwing politics. They just showed up.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 2/11/2021 @ 4:46 pm

    Good job with the talking point but this doesn’t mean anything, except that you are compelled to defend the bad guys for some reason. why bother?

    The people with Mike Ramos Brigade, socialists, Antifa, who engaged in riots, destruction, violence, were very bad. Any politicians who encouraged that aspect of the protests, and there were democrats who did encourage them, are disgraces.

    And Trump encouraging his supporters who were talking about taking hostages… also disgraceful. It is easy to see that what Trump did, the effort to reverse the outcome of the election, was far worse. It’s so much worse that any effort to compare them just makes Trump and his supporters look awful. But both are bad, if you are worried that all Trump critics are happy to see lefties ruin stores in their towns. We aren’t.

    BLM was fashionable on social media so I do think most people engaged in that are normal and do not want the protest to become criminal. I also know, for sure, that some of the really extreme guys on the left are the really extreme guys on the right. When Trump says the election was stolen by the deep state, and idiots get their XXXL riot gear on, he’s talking to people who do the ‘rando’ stuff you’re talking about on the left.

    Trump doesn’t care about left/right and neither do his most idiotic supporters.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  87. @84. A Three Stooges Marathon; which one is Shemp, today.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  88. How can I say the guys on the left are the guys on the right?

    Because they are stupid.

    You can believe you need Muslim Bans and $2000 handouts and wet yourself about china while rolling your eyes about Russia, if you are stupid. Trump tapped into a faction that had stupidity in common, and in a way I admire how clever that is. They are totally impervious to knowledge. It’s like a politician with a superpower to have fans like that. The politician can brag he can murder people and mock his dumb supporters who wouldn’t walk away…. and they don’t walk away! He can be caught demanding Georgia ‘find votes’ and his fans will think they are defending elections from theft.

    It’s amazing.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  89. It’s called a “Court of Impeachment”. What the Senate is sitting as, I mean.

    nk (1d9030)

  90. Trump doesn’t care about left/right and neither do his most idiotic supporters.

    Trump’s economic policies are hard to differentiate from Dick Gephardt’s or Pat Buchanan’s.

    Strong borders, protectionism and defense of the working class.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  91. Trump tapped into a faction that had stupidity in common, and in a way I admire how clever that is. They are totally impervious to knowledge. It’s like a politician with a superpower to have fans like that.

    Well said, but it’s even worse than that.

    They’re not just “impervious to knowledge,” they are swirling vortices that greedily accrete anti-knowledge until eventually the very fabric of reality is rent asunder by their ignorance.

    Dave (1bb933)

  92. defense of the working class

    LOL.

    His moronic steel tariffs costs ten times as many jobs as they saved.

    Dave (1bb933)

  93. swirling vortices that greedily accrete anti-knowledge

    Stop the steal with your mask-oppression or I’ll get the section 230 police on ya

    Dustin (4237e0)

  94. Half of Republicans say that the Capitol violence was mostly antifa’s fault

    [I]n a poll conducted last month by the American Enterprise Institute, half of Republicans said they thought that it was mostly or completely accurate to say that antifa “was mostly responsible for the violence that happened in the riots at the US Capitol.” Overall, 3 in 10 Americans said that statement was at least mostly accurate.

    29% of Republicans also said it was mostly or completely accurate that “Donald Trump has been secretly fighting a group of child sex traffickers that include prominent Democrats and Hollywood elites.”

    Dave (1bb933)

  95. 29% of Republicans also said it was mostly or completely accurate that “Donald Trump has been secretly fighting a group of child sex traffickers that include prominent Democrats and Hollywood elites.”
    Dave (1bb933) — 2/11/2021 @ 6:27 pm

    How many Americans think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone?

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  96. Good job with the talking point but this doesn’t mean anything, except that you are compelled to defend the bad guys for some reason. why bother?

    Not defending the rioters. Just wondering why we treat one type of rioters one way, and another group a different way. I believe BLM has killed more people than the Capitol rioters, but we seem to ignore that as corporations engage in sponsorships with BLM and Democrats foot the legal bills for Antifa rioters who burn down buildings.

    All I ask is that all bad guys get treated equally. The pertinent question is why you feel they shouldn’t.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  97. How many Americans think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone?

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 2/11/2021 @ 6:32 pm

    It’s plausible that Oswald acted alone, and plausible that he didn’t.

    It’s freaking bonkers to think Trump is secretly going to drop a suprise raid on the pizzagate-Hillary-eats-babies ring.

    You’ve got a lot of whatabouts today but you’re a very smart guy and you can tell the difference.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  98. All I ask is that all bad guys get treated equally. The pertinent question is why you feel they shouldn’t.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6) — 2/11/2021 @ 6:37 pm

    The idea that I think lefty rioters should be treated differently from righty rioters is something you made up. The pertinent question is why would you believe that, based on my condemnation of both? Because Trump trying to reverse the outcome of an election is worse than burning down Target? That’s common sense.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  99. If an Obama supporter gathered some flex cuffs and broke into the capitol to take hostages, and we could see they insanely posted a plan on a lefty version of parler to rape some hostages, that’s a substantial step in furtherance of a very dark crime. They should be in prison for a long time.

    Hoi Polloi, it’s not me trying to shift the standards to favor anyone. A whole lot of protests and rallies evolved into crimes from the psychos in attendance. These crimes can be distinguished easiy. David Dorn was (allegedly) murdered by Stephan Cannon who was looting during BLM protests. He wasn’t forgiven because of the BLM movement. he’s being prosecuted for murder.

    That’s different from BLM protestors using guns to intimidate drivers while they shut down intersections (not enough of them have been prosecuted, and they all should be). And that’s different from BLM protestors making graffiti (none of them are going to get in trouble).

    What’s special about the Trump 1/6 attacks is how Trump sought it out, and the effort was to ‘stop’ the EC process from being completed. had Trump succeeded, and he totally intended to succeed at this, I don’t think I can overstate how big a deal that would have been. Everyone trying to help stop this process by sacking the capitol committed a serious crime.

    I’ve read something somewhere explaining that when democrats let it slide when BLM protestors act up, they lower the bar on conduct and the right freaking out on 1/6. No one really believes this. We are all accountable for our actions. I don’t get to drive like an idiot because the guy in front of my is driving like an idiot.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  100. Cruz, Lee, and Graham met with Trump’s lawyers today.

    I think they were telling them that the line of defense that they liked and that they should concentrate on is that the article of impeachment is indivisible, and Trump was not guilty of incitement to violence in his Jan 6 speech, and if he is not, they cannot find him guilty regardless of how bad they think his other conduct was. And that the violence was planned in advance and nt instigated by that speech

    And they can also say it was political.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  101. “How many Americans think Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone?”

    A lot but the difference here is that LBJ didn’t use the event to launch baseless conspiracy accusations against Richard Nixon. Yes, our culture is susceptible to conspiracy theories….and authors and con men will explot this…..but here we have the President of the United States….intentionally and cynically creating false memes….ones that spiraled out of control on Jan 6th. The irresponsibility of this is staggering. If this doesn’t get punished, what will you excuse the next time you politically lose…..at what point does democracy break?

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  102. Sammy, this is not a conventional criminal/civil case where your objections might be relevant. Trump’s trial is diiferent in that

    * Senators are both judge and jury…arbitrarily setting rules and procedures
    * there is no standard of proof required, a Senator could simply accept preponderance of the evidence without question
    * there are no rules of evidence…the majority could require or reject witness testimony
    * there is no potential loss of life, liberty, or property…the cost is purely political
    * there is no appeal….no Court can review the process

    Certainly fairness demands some relationship between the articles, evidence, and verdict…but the central question is whether the President abused his power and failed to perform his duty….and whether that should disqualify him from ever serving in elective office again. We can argue semantics about “inciting” or we can look at the totality of the evidence and ask whether Trump fundamentally abused his Presidential power…..we’re kidding ourselves to think otherwise

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  103. I believe BLM has killed more people than the Capitol rioters

    According to this article, from October 31, 11 Americans were killed while participating in political demonstrations in 2020 (9 of these were BLM protestors), and another 14 died in incidents linked to political unrest.

    Lee Keltner – this was a Trump cultist who was caught on camera slapping a photographer’s security guard after a cult rally in Denver, and was shot in self-defense.

    Jay Danielson – Trump supporter killed by self-described “anti-fascist” Michael Reinoehl, who was later himself killed by police.

    Garrett Foster – Shot by a Trump supporter who was driving his car through a crowd of BLM protesters in Austin, TX. The shooter had previously responded to a Trump tweet with a vow of violence against BLM protesters.

    Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber – murdered by a 17-year old with ties to right-wing militias who traveled to Kenosha from Illinois to hunt BLM demonstrators.

    Tyler Gerth – photograph shot at a downtown park where protesters gathered by a mentally ill homeless man.

    Jorge Gomez – armed and armored BLM protester shot by Las Vegas police. When police fired tear gas to disperse the crowd he was in, Gomez approached them and a police officer fired a non-lethal shotgun round in his chest to make him back off. Gomez raised a gun while running away and shot by four different officers.

    James Scurlock – BLM protester shot to death by a white bar owner outside the man’s bar. Scurlock had been involved in looting earlier, and a shoving match outside the bar resulted in the owner shooting him in self-defense.

    Summer Taylor, Robert Forbes and Barry Perkins – BLM protestors killed when vehicles drove through or rammed into crowds.

    David Dorn – retired police officer killed during robbery of a pawn shop in an area with rioting

    David Underwood and Damon Gutzwiller – Federal officer and sheriff’s deputy murdered by right-wing Boogaloo terrorist Steven Carillo

    Calvin Horton – alleged looter shot and killed by pawn shop owner during unrest

    Oscar Stewart Jr – found dead in a pawn shop burned by looters; likely a fellow looter who did not make it out in time

    Secoriea Turner – 8-year-old girl shot when the car her mother was driving encountered a group of protesters camped in the street.

    David McAtee – restaurant owner shot when the National Guard tried to clear his restaurant while enforcing a curfew. The National Guard fired into McAtee’s restaurant multiple times, prompting him to draw his own weapon and returned fire, at which point the guardsmen killed him. McAtee was known for serving police officers food at no charge and de-escalating violent situations. The crowd at his restaurant that night was not a political protest.

    Antonio Mays – shot driving a stolen jeep into the Seattle “autonomous zone” by other protestors who believed he was an attacker

    Jessica Doty-Whitaker – shot and killed in an altercation after one of her companions directed a racial slur at a group of BLM protesters.

    Victor Cazares Jr and Jose Gutierrez – BLM supporters shot by looters who drove from Chicago to Cicero

    That adds up to 23; the article mentions a second person killed in the “autonomous zone” but for reasons unrelated to politics.

    Of the 23:

    Killed by BLM protesters or antifa (4): Danielson, Turner, Mays, Doty-Whitaker

    Killed by looters not engaged in political protest (4): Dorn, Stewart, Cazares, Gutierrez

    Killed by law enforcement, security or property owners (6): Keltner, Reinoehl, Gomez, Scurlock, Horton, McAtee

    Killed by right-wing extremists (8): Foster, Rosenbaum, Huber, Taylor, Forbes, Perkins, Underwood, Gutzwiller

    Killed by mentally-ill person of unknown political affiliation (1): Gerth

    Dave (1bb933)

  104. Hoi Polloi, at 96: they’re not equivalent. the Capitol rioters invaded the halls of the legislative body, while it was in session, with both the tools necessary to kill members of the government and the intent to do so — in an attempt to prevent the government from certifying election results.

    This was an attempt to overthrow the constitutional order. It should be treated as such.

    BLM was not, and should not be treated as such.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  105. DCSCA, at 58: Cruz, Lee, and Graham met with Trump’s lawyers today. Can you think of any scenario in which it’s appropriate for some members of the jury to have a private conversation with one side’s attorneys?

    And can anyone tell me why that act, in and of itself, isn’t so severe a violation of the oath of office as to justify expelling them?

    aphrael (4c4719) — 2/11/2021 @ 3:51 pm

    Leahy is the judge, jury and witness at the trial who has already decided Trump’s guilt. Can you tell me any reason he shouldn’t be expelled as well as any other juror who has pre-decided Trump’s guilt prior to any evidence presented?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  106. Lee Keltner – this was a Trump cultist who was caught on camera slapping a photographer’s security guard after a cult rally in Denver, and was shot in self-defense.

    Jay Danielson – Trump supporter killed by self-described “anti-fascist” Michael Reinoehl, who was later himself killed by police.

    Garrett Foster – Shot by a Trump supporter who was driving his car through a crowd of BLM protesters in Austin, TX. The shooter had previously responded to a Trump tweet with a vow of violence against BLM protesters.

    Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber – murdered by a 17-year old with ties to right-wing militias who traveled to Kenosha from Illinois to hunt BLM demonstrators.

    Tyler Gerth – photograph shot at a downtown park where protesters gathered by a mentally ill homeless man.

    Jorge Gomez – armed and armored BLM protester shot by Las Vegas police. When police fired tear gas to disperse the crowd he was in, Gomez approached them and a police officer fired a non-lethal shotgun round in his chest to make him back off. Gomez raised a gun while running away and shot by four different officers.

    James Scurlock – BLM protester shot to death by a white bar owner outside the man’s bar. Scurlock had been involved in looting earlier, and a shoving match outside the bar resulted in the owner shooting him in self-defense.

    Summer Taylor, Robert Forbes and Barry Perkins – BLM protestors killed when vehicles drove through or rammed into crowds.

    David Dorn – retired police officer killed during robbery of a pawn shop in an area with rioting

    David Underwood and Damon Gutzwiller – Federal officer and sheriff’s deputy murdered by right-wing Boogaloo terrorist Steven Carillo

    Calvin Horton – alleged looter shot and killed by pawn shop owner during unrest

    Oscar Stewart Jr – found dead in a pawn shop burned by looters; likely a fellow looter who did not make it out in time

    Secoriea Turner – 8-year-old girl shot when the car her mother was driving encountered a group of protesters camped in the street.

    David McAtee – restaurant owner shot when the National Guard tried to clear his restaurant while enforcing a curfew. The National Guard fired into McAtee’s restaurant multiple times, prompting him to draw his own weapon and returned fire, at which point the guardsmen killed him. McAtee was known for serving police officers food at no charge and de-escalating violent situations. The crowd at his restaurant that night was not a political protest.

    Antonio Mays – shot driving a stolen jeep into the Seattle “autonomous zone” by other protestors who believed he was an attacker

    Jessica Doty-Whitaker – shot and killed in an altercation after one of her companions directed a racial slur at a group of BLM protesters.

    Victor Cazares Jr and Jose Gutierrez – BLM supporters shot by looters who drove from Chicago to Cicero

    That adds up to 23; the article mentions a second person killed in the “autonomous zone” but for reasons unrelated to politics.

    Of the 23:

    Killed by BLM protesters or antifa (4): Danielson, Turner, Mays, Doty-Whitaker

    Killed by looters not engaged in political protest (4): Dorn, Stewart, Cazares, Gutierrez

    Killed by law enforcement, security or property owners (6): Keltner, Reinoehl, Gomez, Scurlock, Horton, McAtee

    Killed by right-wing extremists (8): Foster, Rosenbaum, Huber, Taylor, Forbes, Perkins, Underwood, Gutzwiller

    Killed by mentally-ill person of unknown political affiliation (1): Gerth

    Dave (1bb933) — 2/11/2021 @ 7:54 pm

    The very first thing you posted was a lie. Keltner was murdered by an antifa thug who shot him in cold blood when Keltner had a bottle of pepper spray in his hand. That you try to whitewash these crimes says it all.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  107. Dave:

    Victor Cazares Jr and Jose Gutierrez – BLM supporters shot by looters who drove from Chicago to Cicero

    My understanding is that these were collateral black on brown fatalities by West Side blacks who went to the trouble of calling a “Kill Mexicans” day via social media after they had been rebuffed on several looting forays in Little Village and other Mexican majority shopping areas on the SW side the previous day. The event resulting in Cazares and Gutierrez’ murder went down similarly to the Hindu-on-Muslim market massacre scene in Slumdog Millionaire, in this case facilitated by a Blue Line rapid transit train.

    Damn, if only Trump had wised up and fired Steven Miller, we wouldn’t kvetch about pipelines and walls. Also, in the same vein as the story above, the Rs in California that want to nip Newsom best get some material assistance to the Asians in the Bay Area.

    urbanleftbehind (32560b)

  108. Nope, it’s just the GOP on trial. Patterico channeled Truax, or vice versa.

    That’s crazy. GMTA. Promise I didn’t see it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  109. I have been musing whether the comparison between the BLM/Antifa riots and the Capitol invasion is insane or inane, and have concluded that it’s 1) both and 2) what else can one expect from Trump supporters?

    nk (1d9030)

  110. “Keltner was murdered by an antifa thug who shot him in cold blood when Keltner had a bottle of pepper spray in his hand.”

    Show your work. Note ahead of time: a Space Invader tattoo is not an indication of membership in antifa.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  111. “Keltner had a bottle of pepper spray in his hand.”

    https://i.imgur.com/Tq1pmdO.png

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  112. NJRob — unfortunately in this scenario, every juror is a witness. This is impossible to avoid.

    There’s a difference between coming into such a trial with the preconceptions you developed during the events that you witnessed, on the one hand, and *actively meeting with one side’s attorneys*, on the other.

    Every member of the Senate is a witness, and every member of the Senate has preconceptions they developed during the event. There’s no way to hold an impeachment involving an attack on a joint session of Congress without that being true.

    But not every member of the Senate is holding discussions with one side’s attorneys. That’s the difference between preconception based on experience and *collusion with one of the parties*.

    The former is inevitable under the circumstances. The latter is a betrayal of the oath of office.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  113. It doesn’t matter what Trump did. He could have actually murdered somebody on Fifth Avenue. For all too many Republican senators, their decisions regarding the impeachment hinge on their estimations of which verdict will get them more votes in the next primary election. It’s as simple as that.

    Therefore, it is the people who are on trial.

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  114. Well I would support impeaching any elected leader who gathered together an antifa mob and told it to march on a government building. Let us know when that happened.

    Sammy: Tuberville has told media he told Trump Pence was being evacuated. I do not understand how anybody could hear those words and not understand Pence was in danger. And that the nuclear football would also be in peril.

    And the evidence is that there had been violence in a prior MAGA rally in D.C., that the internet was full of violent threats prior to Jan. 6th and that the FBI is a federal agency that reports to Trump. What possible reason do we have for assuming that Trump would not know of the possibility of violence? How stupid / cut off are we to allow him to pretend to be?

    And, in any case, it was pretty clear by the end of his speech that his supporters were starting to storm the Capitol and this was being widely broadcast and all the evidence of the people around him was that he was watching t.v. and he did practically nothing. Except in his first two tweets to inflame the mob further.

    Victor (4959fb)

  115. Leahy is the judge, jury and witness at the trial who has already decided Trump’s guilt. Can you tell me any reason he shouldn’t be expelled as well as any other juror who has pre-decided Trump’s guilt prior to any evidence presented?

    Because the senators are NOT jurors, not are they impartial.

    Senator Harkin objected when House managers in the Clinton impeachment kept calling senators “jurors” and CJ Rehnquist agreed and told the managers to stop it. Here’s former senator Harkin’s account just a few weeks ago:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/18/tom-harkin-senators-are-not-jurors/

    As the Senate begins the impeachment trial of President Trump, there should be no misunderstanding on one fundamental point: Senators are not jurors. This critical point was ruled on by Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist during the impeachment trial of President Bill Clinton.

    Early in that 1999 trial, I rose on the Senate floor to raise an objection to House members referring to me and my fellow senators as “jurors.” I felt it vital that the role of senators sitting in impeachment be fully understood and based on the Constitution, and not defined by labels being used by the press or by ill-informed House members. Rehnquist upheld my objection, saying, “The Senate is not simply a jury. It is a court in this case. Therefore, counsel should refrain from referring to the senators as jurors.”

    Making that motion was not a step I took lightly. I believed it was vital to the matter at hand, as I believe it is vital to the matter at hand today. As I said at the time, “The repeated use of that word” — juror — “brought it home to me that the House managers meant to leave the impression with us and with the public that that solely is the role” of senators. “I felt at that point I had to object.”

    So, what’s the difference? Consider Article III of the Constitution, which states, “The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury.” Clearly the Framers did not consider the Senate sitting in trial on impeachment as a “jury.”

    Consider also that jurors in a criminal trial cannot ask questions, cannot raise objections and cannot discuss the case outside the jury box with the press or interested parties; jurors only try the facts as presented. And in most cases, they cannot impose a sentence — that is left to the judge.

    Senators sitting in impeachment, however, can ask questions, raise objections (as I did) and discuss the case with members of the press or anyone else. Senators can take into account more than just the facts presented by the House. And, if the subject of impeachment is convicted, they do impose a sentence — which, in the case of impeachment, means removal from office.

    (for other accounts google Rehnquist Harkin jurors impeachment)

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  116. The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves

    Turned out the fault was in the stars, too, as they were all doomed.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  117. NJRob — unfortunately in this scenario, every juror is a witness. This is impossible to avoid.

    See 115

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  118. Kevin M,

    I know. I was just using aphrael’s terms to show him how silly his remarks were. Instead, he doubled down.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  119. “Keltner was murdered by an antifa thug who shot him in cold blood when Keltner had a bottle of pepper spray in his hand.”

    That’s a lie, and there’s irrefutable video evidence to prove it.

    Keltner was playing a hard-ass and pushing people around, brandishing his pepper spray and getting in peoples’ faces. His shirt had a racist slogan on it. There were BLM people who got back in his face, but the guy who shot him was minding his own business, until Keltner decided to attack the photographer he was hired to protect.

    You can watch the video, which shows Keltner attacking the photographer and saying “Get your cameras out of here or I’m going to f*ck you up”.

    Those were his last words.

    Keltner had been in a shouting match with a BLM protester, and he likely planned to attack the guy he had been arguing with but didn’t want any photo evidence. So he abruptly turned to the photographer and threatened to attack him if he didn’t stop filming in the public location.

    Dave (1bb933)

  120. “Georgia did not elect two Democrats because the Democrats suddenly started making sense, but because the GOP had become so toxic.”

    Yes, it’s hard to keep the unprecedented Trump-motivated moderate turnout that coattailed the new GOP House members into power after the GOP Senate had passed on voting on 2k stimulus checks and both Georgia GOP Senate candidates had dragged their feet on both supporting both those checks and the President’s constant push for signature verifictions.

    “That’s crazy. GMTA. Promise I didn’t see it.”

    The notion that all prominent NeverTrumpers get the same set of workshopped marching orders talking points original legal inspiration each day is conspiratorial and should not be entertained! Would journalists ever push a message on private listservs?

    “I have been musing whether the comparison between the BLM/Antifa riots and the Capitol invasion is insane or inane, and have concluded that it’s 1) both and 2) what else can one expect from Trump supporters?”

    The one justifies the other. Whining about “whataboutism” when you haven’t actually done anything “about” the “what” previously just makes you seem like a latecoming hypocritical shill for the other side. If Congressmen and political parties get to support riots against the American people, the American people get to support riots against Congressmen and political parties. If the Democrats have not been punished for supporting similar activities, you don’t get to demand that the Republicans suddenly receive special harsh treatment when they do it. Actions demand equal and opposite reactions.

    None of you have standing, none of you have the moral high ground or even legs to stand on it if it existed. Why you still defend the privileges, honor, and procedures of the Washington Prostitutes at this point is far beyond me. Their corporate sponsors aren’t going to offer you board seats anytime soon. I suppose the important thing is that you can always find a way to avoid blaming yourself for anything that happens.

    Jorts Johnson (8e2c0d)

  121. Jorts,

    Storming the capitol to intimidate Congress into rejecting a lawful election outcome is exponentially more significant than a riot where a store is looted. If you can’t see the much bigger threat to the republic, then you are very misguided.

    norcal (b4d7b1)

  122. @ Jorts Johnson (8e2c0d) — 2/11/2021 @ 11:51 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xA9eNoN_9k

    Demosthenes (d7fc81)

  123. Dave, are you forgetting BLM shot five police officers in 2016?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  124. The one justifies the other. Whining about “whataboutism” when you haven’t actually done anything “about” the “what” previously just makes you seem like a latecoming hypocritical shill for the other side. If Congressmen and political parties get to support riots against the American people, the American people get to support riots against Congressmen and political parties. If the Democrats have not been punished for supporting similar activities, you don’t get to demand that the Republicans suddenly receive special harsh treatment when they do it. Actions demand equal and opposite reactions.

    I guess you really do believe that rioters breaking windows and being teargassed in the summer is a justification for attempting to storm the Capitol and reverse an election. You also seem to believe that Congresspeople and Democrats supported “riots against the American people”. And not much is going to change your mind.

    So yeah, to the extent that you represent the current thinking of the Republican Party, the Republican Party is a danger to the United States.

    As for the senators as jury thing, apparently Cruz, Lee and Graham have been in consultation with Trump’s attorneys, which is the kind of thing that would be frowned on in an actual trial. But because impeachment plays by its own rules, I guess we’ll just shrug.

    Victor (4959fb)

  125. Cruz, Lee, and Graham are part of the defense team. I imagine they were giving Castor and Schoen the scuttlebutt from the cloakroom.

    nk (1d9030)

  126. The one justifies the other. Whining about “whataboutism” when you haven’t actually done anything “about” the “what” previously just makes you seem like a latecoming hypocritical shill for the other side. If Congressmen and political parties get to support riots against the American people, the American people get to support riots against Congressmen and political parties. If the Democrats have not been punished for supporting similar activities, you don’t get to demand that the Republicans suddenly receive special harsh treatment when they do it. Actions demand equal and opposite reactions.

    None of you have standing, none of you have the moral high ground or even legs to stand on it if it existed. Why you still defend the privileges, honor, and procedures of the Washington Prostitutes at this point is far beyond me. Their corporate sponsors aren’t going to offer you board seats anytime soon. I suppose the important thing is that you can always find a way to avoid blaming yourself for anything that happens.

    Jorts Johnson (8e2c0d) — 2/11/2021 @ 11:51 pm

    I think this is a big part of the problem; a lot of the GOP assumes that only people that look and worship like them count as American people.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  127. Did you know that “scuttlebutt” is literally “the water cooler”? A barrel of water aboard a ship, “butt”, which as you understand must be sealed very securely for long voyages, so that when it was brought up from the hold for the sailors to dip a drink from, the top needed to be broken, “scuttled”.

    Not to be confused by any means with “turn in the barrel” which is a different thing entirely, although the confusion is understandable if you know what I mean and I think you do.

    nk (1d9030)

  128. I think this is a big part of the problem; a lot of the GOP assumes that only people that look and worship like them count as American people.

    Nah! They’re just morons.

    nk (1d9030)

  129. Nikki Haley provides an excellent example of how rats can flee a sinking ship with grace.

    “We need to acknowledge he let us down,” Haley, who served in her ambassador role under Trump, said. “He went down a path he shouldn’t have, and we shouldn’t have followed him, and we shouldn’t have listened to him. And we can’t let that ever happen again.” “And it wasn’t just his words,” she added at the time. “His actions since Election Day will be judged harshly by history.”When I tell you I’m angry, it’s an understatement,” Haley told Politico. “I am so disappointed in the fact that [despite] the loyalty and friendship he had with Mike Pence, that he would do that to him. Like, I’m disgusted by it.”

    This is an Ok statement and doesn’t call for his conviction. Just expresses her displeasure. When she runs again she’ll be able to say that she made her displeasure clear, and that she stood by him by not supporting his conviction. Like all weather vanes it will depend on which way they wind is blowing.

    But this might be the start of the ‘Trump was never a true conservative and no one really supported him’ which has already started with the Qanon nuttery that’s infected the GOP.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  130. how rats can flee a sinking ship with grace.

    Or the hitch-hiker waving bye-bye to the truck with the “Ass, Grass, or Gas, Nobody Rides For Free” door decal at the rest stop, before she goes to look for the next one.

    nk (1d9030)

  131. Random thought. D.C. has strict gun control laws which they said they’d enforce which seems to be a reason why the patriots storming the Capitol weren’t carrying like the militia members had in occupying the Michigan capitol.

    I find it hard to believe things would have gone better if they had been carrying. On the other hand if gunfire had begun at the barricades, it might have reduced the size of the crowd a little.

    Well anyway, it’s not clear if this was a very good test of the 2nd Amendment’s – protect the American people from tyranny rationale.

    Victor (4959fb)

  132. Random thought. D.C. has strict gun control laws which they said they’d enforce which seems to be a reason why the patriots storming the Capitol weren’t carrying like the militia members had in occupying the Michigan capitol.

    I find it hard to believe things would have gone better if they had been carrying. On the other hand if gunfire had begun at the barricades, it might have reduced the size of the crowd a little.

    Well anyway, it’s not clear if this was a very good test of the 2nd Amendment’s – protect the American people from tyranny rationale.

    Victor (4959fb) — 2/12/2021 @ 6:43 am

    I think if the people smashing police officers in doors or bashing them with fire extinguishers had been armed with riffles this would have gone a lot worse.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  133. House manager Ted Lieu caimed that e was not afraid that Donald Trump would run for president again [and win];he was afraid that Donald Trump would run for president and lose. (but that spoils the argument a bit that he was not an ordinary citizen when he made that speech because now he says Trump coul have done that while holding no office. Of course, there’s the higher responsibility argument)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  134. Dave, are you forgetting BLM shot five police officers in 2016?

    Ok, if you want to make the time horizon open-ended, then let’s include Tim McVeigh on the other side of the ledger.

    Dave (1bb933)

  135. #129

    I wasn’t that impressed. Haley has a very busy twitter feed. You can’t your linked statement there. All you can find is her being proud of all the good things Trump did and comparing Twitter to “Communist China” for banning Trump.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  136. Dave, are you forgetting BLM shot five police officers in 2016?

    Ok, if you want to make the time horizon open-ended, then let’s include Tim McVeigh on the other side of the ledger.

    Dave (1bb933) — 2/12/2021 @ 7:19 am

    Or we can agree that right and left wing domestic violence is bad. We could also agree that people who fail to push back on it, like the Squad are bad and that people who encourage and attempt to exploit, like Trump are bad. When the bad things people do crosses the line we can try to hold them accountable and treat people that refuse to do that as also bad.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  137. #129

    I wasn’t that impressed. Haley has a very busy twitter feed. You can’t your linked statement there. All you can find is her being proud of all the good things Trump did and comparing Twitter to “Communist China” for banning Trump.

    Appalled (1a17de) — 2/12/2021 @ 7:30 am

    That’s why I called her a rat fleeing a sinking ship and a weathervane.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  138. Ok, if you want to make the time horizon open-ended, then let’s include Tim McVeigh on the other side of the ledger.

    Dave (1bb933) — 2/12/2021 @ 7:19 am

    It’s not a function of time, but the organization. I’ve heard that BLM is a peaceful organization, but sure does seem to have a lot of blood on its hands.

    And at the federal level, we haven’t done anything about it.

    Why is that?

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  139. Keltner was playing a hard-ass and pushing people around, brandishing his pepper spray and getting in peoples’ faces. His shirt had a racist slogan on it. There were BLM people who got back in his face, but the guy who shot him was minding his own business, until Keltner decided to attack the photographer he was hired to protect.

    So he deserved it, right?

    How do you feel about women in short skirts?

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  140. 129. Time123 (53ef45) — 2/12/2021 @ 6:32 am

    . This is an Ok statement and doesn’t call for his conviction.

    More important, it doesn’t say specifically that the election wasn’t stolen.

    It still may be OK enough, but she’s clearly looking for votes both from the people who believe the election was stolen, and from those who say it wasn’t and Trump knew it. Just what Trump did wrong, she leaves to the imagination of each voter, although she does say she is referring to “His actions since Election Day” and what he did to Mike Pence.

    If we get to the point of ‘Trump was never a true conservative and no one really supported him’ that would be great.

    Although it might be ‘Trump was never a true Republican (whatever that is) and he fooled people into supporting him” (or betrayed them)

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  141. RE 137 and 129, all that sass about China while the crowd for Hawley and Noem is chanting “H-1B” and “Anchor Baby” from the rafters. Oh well, DCSCA has to change the sheets this morning.

    Speaking of rats fleeing…but be very afraid…you may see the rebirth of what used to be called greaser gangs:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/02/12/proud-boys-splintering-after-capitol-riot-revelations-leader/6709017002/

    urbanleftbehind (877c2c)

  142. Keep in mind Haley might have been the victim of Pence’s petty had the switcheroo at VP, strongly recommended by DCSCA, been made for the 2020 election. We might have had the indelible image of a red, white, and blue turban with dagger swinging barreling through the halls of the Capitol.

    urbanleftbehind (877c2c)

  143. It’s not a function of time, but the organization. I’ve heard that BLM is a peaceful organization, but sure does seem to have a lot of blood on its hands.

    And at the federal level, we haven’t done anything about it.

    Why is that?

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 2/12/2021 @ 7:34 am

    Pick 1

    You’ve been lied to about what BLM is and how it’s structured.
    Trump/Barr weren’t competent enough to do anything about it.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  144. Keltner was playing a hard-ass and pushing people around, brandishing his pepper spray and getting in peoples’ faces. His shirt had a racist slogan on it. There were BLM people who got back in his face, but the guy who shot him was minding his own business, until Keltner decided to attack the photographer he was hired to protect.

    So he deserved it, right?

    How do you feel about women in short skirts?

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9) — 2/12/2021 @ 7:36 am

    I feel like if they are acting violently and attack me with pepper spray I have a right to defend myself. Anything to disagree with their?

    Time123 (7cca75)

  145. @140, Sammy, that’s a great catch!

    Time123 (7cca75)

  146. Denver police denied that Dolloff was Antifa. A liberal yes? He had a honey farm named Lavender Moon.
    The only Antifa guy who committed murder (that I’m aware of) is the nutjob in Portland who was later killed in a firefight.

    Paul Montagu (1aa8b1)

  147. do’oh should be there, not their.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  148. And when it comes to murders by extremists, most have been coming from the Right, especially now that militant Islamist attacks have been subsiding, and I take no pleasure in saying that.

    Paul Montagu (1aa8b1)

  149. Random thought. D.C. has strict gun control laws which they said they’d enforce which seems to be a reason why the patriots storming the Capitol weren’t carrying like the militia members had in occupying the Michigan capitol.

    I find it hard to believe things would have gone better if they had been carrying. On the other hand if gunfire had begun at the barricades, it might have reduced the size of the crowd a little.

    Well anyway, it’s not clear if this was a very good test of the 2nd Amendment’s – protect the American people from tyranny rationale.

    Victor (4959fb) — 2/12/2021 @ 6:43 am

    How about using your thinking cap then when you claim that people who wouldn’t illegally bring guns because of the harsh penalties are going to engage in insurrection ignoring the harsh penalties.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  150. Lincoln Project grifters like rats fleeing a sinking ship. What did they know and when? How many have given them aid and comfort while they hid these abusive actions?

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  151. Victor (4959fb) — 2/11/2021 @ 10:28 pm

    Sammy: Tuberville has told media he told Trump Pence was being evacuated….And that the nuclear football would also be in peril

    I didn’t hear Tuberville’s version of events, except I did hear that yesterday he said he was undecided or not willing to say what his vote was impeachment, which is significant for someone who was almost first in objecting to Electoral votes.

    I do not understand how anybody could hear those words and not understand Pence was in danger.

    That’s easy. His protective detail often enages in an abundance of caution.

    Now telling Trump that Pence was being evacuated probably meant that the building had been breached. It might also mean that Trump had heard about people shouting “hang Mike Pence.”

    Tuberville seems to have talked about this, or been asked about this, only late Wednesday, after Mike Lee made his objection.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/538385-tuberville-says-he-told-trump-about-pences-evacuation-during-capitol-hill

    “I said ‘Mr. President, they just took the vice president out, I’ve got to go,’” Tuberville said during a call with journalists, according to the Capitol Hill pool report.

    It had previously been known that Tuberville and Trump spoke, though the details of the conversation are new.

    The story cannot place the call before or after Trump’s tweet it says “around the time:) which means they don’t know when Pence was being evacuated or from where, and it doesn’t whether or not Trump knew about the calls to hang him. I think he was possibly making excuses for the rioters, though. Trump’s tweet was probably motivated by something he heard on TV and we don’t know what it was.

    According to the impeachment managers, the call with Tuberville took place just after 2 p.m., which was shortly before Pence’s evacuation.

    I think that has to be wrong, because the Senate continued in session when Pence was taken from the room.

    Maybe Trump reached him later, after the tweet, and after Senators had been taken from the room, to the first staging area, and now they were going to be taken to safer place. Otherwise no reason for Tommy Tuberville to interrupt his phone call.

    Senator Mike Lee says he wanted his cell phone back because they were about to be moved and that’s why Tommy Tuberville ended the call. That does not fit what I heard about the 2:12 pm evacuation of Mike Pence because that was Mike Pence alone and they did not alert the Senators. Although maybe they did a minute later, but I suspect the New York Times has the evacuation of Mike Pence and the interruption of Senator Lankford too close together.

    Here are the key relevant elements of the evacuartion and Mike Pence chronology according to the New York Times on January 15:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/15/us/trump-capitol-riot-timeline.html

    2:11 p.m. The first rioters make it inside the Capitol building.

    About 2:12 p.m.As Senators continue to debate, Vice President Mike Pence is ushered off the Senate floor.

    2:13 p.m. Senator James Lankford, Republican of Oklahoma, is interrupted on the floor of the Senate, which is called into recess. A minute later, a mob arrives steps from a door to the Senate chamber.

    About 2:30 p.m. Senators are evacuated from the Senate chamber as House members remain in theirs.

    It could be, by the way, that Senator Lee thought they were going to be imminently moved from the Senate chamber but it either wasn’t planned or the presence of the crowd prevented that and they barricaded instead.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  152. It’s not a function of time, but the organization. I’ve heard that BLM is a peaceful organization, but sure does seem to have a lot of blood on its hands.

    The Dallas shooter was a failure at life, and a loner with a history of psychiatric and behavioral issues.

    The shootings took place at the end of a BLM demonstration, but there is no evidence that the shooter had any contact or involvement in the organization. He had visited web sites of several black nationalist groups, and was kicked out of the Houston chapter of the New Black Panther Party a couple years earlier.

    In short, it is dishonest to say “BLM” killed the five Dallas officers. It would be accurate to say a black nationalist extremist perpetrated them.

    Dave (1bb933)

  153. “In short, it is dishonest to say “BLM” killed the five Dallas officers. It would be accurate to say a black nationalist extremist perpetrated them.”

    The link he provided even says that the shooter wasn’t BLM.

    Davethulhu (6ba00b)

  154. How many have given them aid and comfort while they hid these abusive actions?

    Trump supporter very concerned about sexual predation!

    What the former Lincoln Project guy did was sleazy and disgusting, but it doesn’t appear that any laws were broken.

    What he did was proposition adult (and often gay) men with vague promises of career help if they had sex with him.

    The Lincolns were right to condemn his behavior and expel him from the organization, right to encourage victims to come forward, right to release anyone under NDA to speak about his actions, and right to hire an independent investigator.

    Dave (1bb933)

  155. NJRob,

    People who aren’t going to stand around for long periods of time open carrying because the D.C. police had been told to arrest them, might very well smash in windows, fight with the police and break into a building because they thought Trump had ordered it, and Trump’s orders meant what they were doing, trying to overturn the election, was fine.

    In fact that’s what seems to have happened.

    Sammy,

    This is the tweet I saw:

    TUBERVILLE tells reporters tonight that when Trump called him on Jan. 6, he informed the president that security had just taken Pence out of the chamber for safety.

    “I said ‘Mr. President, they just took the vice president out, I’ve got to go.”

    https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/tuberville-trump-knew-pence-evacuated-capitol-tweet.html

    As you say, Pence was taken off at 2:12. Trump tweeted at 2:24 attacking Pence.

    It seems a question of what is meant by “just”, but 10-12 minutes is reasonably long in the circumstances.

    I agree that Tuberville would make an excellent witness, as would Trump himself, and in his defense perhaps he should call them. But given what we do know, and given that Trump is a cable news addict, and is surrounding him news, and that starting around 1:00 and continuing for the next few hours cable news was wall to wall on the insurrection, thinking Trump didn’t know seems… implausible.

    Victor (4959fb)

  156. 114. Victor (4959fb) — 2/11/2021 @ 10:28 pm

    the evidence is that there had been violence in a prior MAGA rally in D.C.,

    Between them and counter demonstrators think.
    Which does mean there could be trouble.

    that the internet was full of violent threats prior to Jan. 6th

    This now gets more attention than it did then. It was generally assumed that most of that was what they call “aspirational.”

    Now some of that was associated in some way with people planning or planning to attend the demonstrations Trump endorsed and participated in. I think there were probably people who could have, and maybe did warn him off them. He had ways of knowing or learning abut what some people might do, and thiswould;t have happened to someone else who a key figure in a demonstration.

    and that the FBI is a federal agency that reports to Trump.

    hrowing in an internal FBI report is sheer nonsense and the House managers know it. What are they saying? Trump was micromanaging the FBI?? Or they can safely assume that FBI Director Wray, whom Trump even wanted to fire, (in the end he didn’t because he didn’t want Biden to name his successor) would have told hom to call off the demonstration because bad things were being talked about? Just what is the point about someone in the FBI sending a note to other FBI offices?

    What possible reason do we have for assuming that Trump would not know of the possibility of violence?

    Not that he couldn’t have known but you can’t assume he did.

    How stupid / cut off are we to allow him to pretend to be?

    It’s not how stupid, it’s how smart. And the question is how stupid do we imagine his plans might have been becuse there’s no way to make the endgame make sense. Storming the Capitol was not a diabolically clever plan.

    Trump was still hoping till that morning for Mike Pence to do what he wanted – which by the way, even if Mike Pence would have done it, still required half a dozen more things to happen that weren’t in the cards to make him president again

    And, in any case, it was pretty clear by the end of his speech that his supporters were starting to storm the Capitol and this was being widely broadcast

    No it wasn’t. And was he watching anything while he was speaking?

    and all the evidence of the people around him was that he was watching t.v. and he did practically nothing. Except in his first two tweets to inflame the mob further.

    We actually don;t know that he was watching TV but we can assume that he was.

    The first indication that the goings on outside were more than a minor distraction that the networks were paying too much attention to would have been when the proceedings were recessed.

    n

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  157. Nikki Haley provides an excellent example of how rats can flee a sinking ship with grace.

    She doesn’t denounce him: “what a suckup”
    She denounces him “Rat fleeing ship”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  158. But this might be the start of the ‘Trump was never a true conservative and no one really supported him

    Some people want to heal the GOP, others want to see it destroy itself, others are demanding the Real Votes be counted. Haley is the one working for the future. Damn her eyes!

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  159. If Congressmen and political parties get to support riots against the American people, the American people get to support riots against Congressmen and political parties.

    Jorts Johnson (8e2c0d) — 2/11/2021 @ 11:51 pm

    “The American people” do not support the attack on Congress (or the murderous designs upon the vice president) in an effort to nullify the electoral choice of a majority of the American people.
    Why is it so hard to acknowledge the fact that a large portion of the American people disagree with you politically?

    Radegunda (20775b)

  160. The people who need to go are not the peacemakers but the dead-enders. We will see which is which when they vote. I think that the midterms, with 20 GOP Senators up for election, are going to be a bloodbath for anyone who votes to acquit. Maybe for any Republican who votes to convict, too, but I don’t see this remaining a survival calculation.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  161. During the Trump Administration, the alt-right has killed far people than BLM or other protesters have:

    2017-Charlottesville: 1 dead, 28 injured
    2018-Pittsburgh: 11 dead, 7 injured
    2019-El Paso: 23 dead, 23 injured
    2019-Poway: 1 dead, 3 injured
    2019-Gilroy: 3 dead, 17 injured

    And if want to go back farther you have the Oklahoma City bombing, with 168 dead and 700+ injured.

    Rip Murdock (cc5a6a)

  162. Jorts Johnson (8e2c0d) — 2/11/2021 @ 11:51 pm

    If Congressmen and political parties get to support riots against the American people, the American people get to support riots against Congressmen and political parties.

    Id like to see your polling on that.

    Rip Murdock (cc5a6a)

  163. Why are you guys even dignifying this nuttery by responding to it with anything other than derision?

    Hey, Trump supporters! Some kids keep walking on my lawn and the police are not doing anything about it. When are you going to storm the City Council for me?

    nk (1d9030)

  164. BTW, I think that the vote to convict will be closer than anyone thinks.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  165. I feel like if they are acting violently and attack me with pepper spray I have a right to defend myself. Anything to disagree with there?

    Keltner had also just smacked the bodyguard in the face – very hard – before stepping back and starting to spray him with mace.

    The video I linked made the point that events leading to Keltner’s retirement from TrumpWorld transpired over a span of only 9 seconds.

    During that time:

    Keltner is separated from an unarmed protester he is menacing with his can of mace.

    Keltner notices the photographer and announces “This is no place for cameras.”

    He steps aggressively toward the photographer and tells him “I will f*ck you up” if he doesn’t put the camera away. He is still holding a can of mace at his waist, with his finger on the spray button.

    The bodyguard steps between Keltner and the photographer he is protecting, and apparently reaches toward the can of mace, either to disarm Keltner or prevent him from aiming it. At the same time, Keltner strikes him hard in the face.

    Keltner steps back to aim his mace and starts spraying it as the bodyguard draws his handgun and fires. In one of the still photos, there is a sizable cloud of mace already released by Keltner, and the bodyguard has not yet fired.

    Keltner was threatening, or actually engaged in, a violent attack for the entirety of the nine-second encounter.

    Dave (1bb933)

  166. Random thought. D.C. has strict gun control laws which they said they’d enforce which seems to be a reason why the patriots storming the Capitol weren’t carrying like the militia members had in occupying the Michigan capitol.

    I find it hard to believe things would have gone better if they had been carrying. On the other hand if gunfire had begun at the barricades, it might have reduced the size of the crowd a little.

    Well anyway, it’s not clear if this was a very good test of the 2nd Amendment’s – protect the American people from tyranny rationale.

    Victor (4959fb) — 2/12/2021 @ 6:43 am

    How about using your thinking cap then when you claim that people who wouldn’t illegally bring guns because of the harsh penalties are going to engage in insurrection ignoring the harsh penalties.

    NJRob (eb56c3) — 2/12/2021 @ 8:18 am

    or the assault was spontaneous.
    or they made a calculated decision not to bring weapons so as to avoid attention.
    or domestic terrorists are hard to understand. Could be a lot of things.

    Time123 (53ef45)

  167. Keltner steps back to aim his mace and starts spraying it as the bodyguard draws his handgun and fires. In one of the still photos, there is a sizable cloud of mace already released by Keltner, and the bodyguard has not yet fired.

    Keltner was threatening, or actually engaged in, a violent attack for the entirety of the nine-second encounter.

    Dave (1bb933) — 2/12/2021 @ 10:48 am

    In this photo both the mace and the gun have been discharged. You can see the spray and the ejected shell casing.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  168. Sammy,

    There’s just a couple of points to respond to. His supporters were breaching barriers before his speech ended. I agree he wouldn’t know this while he was speaking. But he was intensively interested in what was happening at the Capitol. I think it’s reasonable to assume on return to the White House he would ask about it and be informed.

    How stupid / cut off are we to allow him to pretend to be?

    It’s not how stupid, it’s how smart. And the question is how stupid do we imagine his plans might have been becuse there’s no way to make the endgame make sense. Storming the Capitol was not a diabolically clever plan.

    I agree the endgame didn’t make sense and was not “clever” on any rational scale. The best case scenario is that his supporters get into the Capitol, interrupt proceedings, perhaps rough up or kill some people, including Pence, causing a long delay in the proceedings and giving him an excuse to declare martial law and demand a delay in the inauguration. To have this work requires a lot of improbably things to happen. But Trump is not clever in the sense of long term planning. He’s reactive, he “fights”, he lashes out, he hopes for the best, he stiffs creditors, delays litigation does whatever he can to delay losing. His choices were doing some thing stupid and risky and dangerous or give up. So it’s not a surprise what choice he made.

    And, again, a stupid insurrection is still an insurrection. It might not have been successful in keeping Trump in office but it still came fairly close to leading to even greater havoc, i.e. assault on Pence or Congress members (I assume the Secret Service would simply have opened up if Pence were threatened, but gunfights are kind of hard to predict the outcome of),

    Victor (4959fb)

  169. I agree the endgame didn’t make sense and was not “clever” on any rational scale. The best case scenario is that his supporters get into the Capitol, interrupt proceedings, perhaps rough up or kill some people, including Pence, causing a long delay in the proceedings and giving him an excuse to declare martial law and demand a delay in the inauguration. To have this work requires a lot of improbably things to happen. But Trump is not clever in the sense of long term planning. He’s reactive, he “fights”, he lashes out, he hopes for the best, he stiffs creditors, delays litigation does whatever he can to delay losing. His choices were doing some thing stupid and risky and dangerous or give up. So it’s not a surprise what choice he made.

    The endgame was to create a delay and enough uncertainty to either steal the election or force a do-over. The more Trump could force deviation from the process and create a dichotomy between his plan and the dem plan the better. He really needed to interrupt the process so that it wasn’t his plan vs law and tradition.

    Time123 (7cca75)

  170. The Politico piece on Haley by Tim Alberta is excellent and worth a full read. The irony is that the NYT said she was “that rarest of Trump appointees: one who can exit the administration with her dignity largely intact,” but then she shredded her dignity afterward by sucking up to Trump and his unhinged behavior. She was one of many influential Republicans who held their tongue after the election, staying silent while Trump lied and lied and lied.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  171. Victor (4959fb) — 2/12/2021 @ 11:13 am

    There’s just a couple of points to respond to. His supporters were breaching barriers before his speech ended. I agree he wouldn’t know this while he was speaking. But he was intensively interested in what was happening at the Capitol. I think it’s reasonable to assume on return to the White House he would ask about it and be informed.

    He was intensely interested in the proceedings of Congress, not on what demonstrator were doing – except for one thing:

    he was supposed t make another speech there!

    At some point he would have been informed that was a no-go.

    There is a question about this to Trump’s defense counsel. Trump’s counsel have not been in contact with him.

    They don;t know when Trump found out about this!

    All they know (from independent investigation – they said this earlier) is that his speech ended at 1:13 pm and his first tweet about this was at 2:38 pm. They seem to blame the House of Rep for them not knowing more.

    Can’t they get their client on the phone? I think maybe if one Senator asked them to call their client maybe they’d get an answer. Trump would have to come to the phone or whoever is screening his calls would have to put him on the line. Trump is not brain dead or incapacitated. They could maybe, you know, talk to him. Or text.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  172. Now the same question – when did the president learn pf the breach and what did he do about it please be as detailed as ppssoble, To the House managers –

    A. On libe TV – he has access to info. So he knew everything

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  173. So far neither side at the impeachment trial has given any sign of being aware of Trump’s second speech or even of the rally. (that;s the strongest proof that Trump’s lawyers haven’t talked to him)

    The closest they came was Trump’s defense counsel laying out a timeline saying the trouble started (in the form of bad people coming there) even before Trump had started speaking and significant things had happened before he finished and none of these people could have heard his speech. They wee a mile away.

    Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1)

  174. Sammy,

    A quick correction, his first tweet was a repeat of his speech, and his second tweet, at 2:24, attacking Pence. I think the 2:38 tweet, directly referencing the riot, was his third.

    I think the managers at this point are correct. Trump had an opportunity to testify and now the facts can be read adverse against him.

    Victor (4959fb)

  175. In this photo both the mace and the gun have been discharged. You can see the spray and the ejected shell casing.

    Ah, interesting. I guess I remember that being pointed out right after the incident, but it slipped my mind.

    In the videos, the cultist drops like a wet rag when the bullet hits him, so I figured if he was still standing, the gun hadn’t been fired yet.

    I wonder where the entry wound is.

    Dave (1bb933)

  176. CNN now allegedly has a leak from unnamed House Republicans saying that in a phone call with McCarthy on the 6th, where McCarthy was asking for help dealing with the rioters, Trump refused and babbled about how apparently some people are more upset about the election than McCarthy is.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  177. Update: the source is now named. It’s Jaime Herrera Beutler.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  178. The House managers can still call witnesses, I think.

    nk (1d9030)

  179. I think the Senate has to vote to allow it.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  180. I think the impeachment managers should request that witnesses be called, specifically McCarthy and Beutler, haven them put them under oath and testify to what was said with Trump on that call.

    Paul Montagu (392497)

  181. Jaime Herrera Beutler is an American politician who is the U.S. Representative for Washington’s 3rd congressional district. The district includes much of the southwestern quadrant of the state, but most of its vote is cast in the Washington side of the Portland metropolitan area. A Republican, Herrera Beutler was appointed to the Washington House of Representatives in 2007 and elected to that body in 2008. In 2010, she was elected to represent Washington’s 3rd congressional district in Congress. Herrera Beutler has been reelected five times. Herrera Beutler gained national attention after her daughter was born with Potter’s Syndrome.

    Herrera Beutler was one of ten Republicans who voted to impeach Donald Trump during Trump’s second impeachment and is a politician who has the caucus memberships of the Congressional Hispanic Conference, Republican Main Street Partnership, and Tuesday Group. -source,wikileakingrat

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  182. The other elephant in the room is that Trump endangered the Vice President’s nuclear football. How does that sit with the national security organs I wonder?

    nk (1d9030)

  183. Eh, have, not haven.

    Paul Montagu (392497)

  184. The logical flaw in the Trump defense argument is that it’s an either /or proposition. Either the riot was planned ahead of time or it was solely caused by the speech. But of course that’s not true. There were people planning ahead of time, encouraged by Trump’s two month long campaign to overturn the election. But it’s unlikely they would have succeeded on their own without the weight of a large crowd in addition, some of whom started leaving before Trump’s speech was over, and others who made the half hour walk when he was done and showed up around 1:45 to bolster the final push into the Capitol itself, after the outer barriers had been breached.

    Victor (4959fb)

  185. Victor (4959fb) — 2/13/2021 @ 3:36 am

    The logical flaw in the Trump defense argument is that it’s an either /or proposition. Either the riot was planned ahead of time or it was solely caused by the speech. But of course that’s not true.

    Their claim is/was that the House impeachment resolution claimed it was caused by his speech. And in fact that’s what it said. That resolution attributes strongly it to the speech (with some earlier background maybe building up to it, but the lawlessness to the speech. No other cause is mentioned.)

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-resolution/24/text

    ARTICLE I: INCITEMENT OF INSURRECTION

    … Shortly before the Joint Session commenced, President Trump, addressed a crowd at the Ellipse in Washington, DC. There, he reiterated false claims that “we won this election, and we won it by a landslide”. He also willfully made statements that, in context, encouraged—and foreseeably resulted in—lawless action at the Capitol, such as: “if you don’t fight like hell you’re not going to have a country anymore”. Thus incited by President Trump, members of the crowd he had addressed, in an attempt to, among other objectives, interfere with the Joint Session’s solemn constitutional duty to certify the results of the 2020 Presidential election, unlawfully breached and vandalized the Capitol, injured and killed law enforcement personnel, menaced Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel, and engaged in other violent, deadly, destructive, and seditious acts.

    Boldface mine.

    I think Trump’s lawyers quite effectively demolished that. They made a dubious claim about him always being for law and order, like law and order was indivisible, but the incitement by speech claim was destroyed, and it is not saved by saying: “Well, they did riot” because that doesn’t have to be, and the power or lack of power of those words doesn’t change regardless of what happened afterwards and it had other causes.

    There were people planning ahead of time, encouraged by Trump’s two month long campaign to overturn the election.

    True.

    But it’s unlikely they would have succeeded on their own without the weight of a large crowd in addition, some of whom started leaving before Trump’s speech was over, and others who made the half hour walk when he was done and showed up around 1:45 to bolster the final push into the Capitol itself, after the outer barriers had been breached.

    The [roblem with that is that origially there was supposed to be only one rally, at the Capitol. Trump drew them to a place away from the Capitol. I don;t think very many of the crowd that went to both places went into the Capitol. Tehy were needed to create a bigger “sea” for the “fish” to swim in. I don; think Trump knew about any plan. He had a different strategy; Mike Pence didn’t give him a definite no untl very late: Trump was also supposed to be at the second rally.

    If Trump was part of a plot why would he draw people away from the place he wanted them to be?

    We need to figure out this plot. It could be maybe that the organizers only got Trump to agree to a second speech after he had agreed to the first – it could also be they didn’t plan on Trump actually being there at the Capitol.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)

  186. Everyone there was on trial.

    Sammy Finkelman (00fff5)


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