Patterico's Pontifications

1/6/2021

Chaos At The Capitol

Filed under: General — Dana @ 12:07 pm



[guest post by Dana]

So this is happening now:

Supporters of President Donald Trump have breached the US Capitol as lawmakers count the Electoral College votes certifying President-elect Joe Biden’s win.

Shortly after 1 p.m. ET hundreds of pro-Trump protesters pushed through barriers set up along the perimeter of the Capitol, where they tussled with officers in full riot gear, some calling the officers “traitors” for doing their jobs. About 90 minutes later, police said demonstrators got into the building and the doors to the House and Senate were being locked. Shortly after, the House floor was evacuated by police.

Vice President Mike Pence was also evacuated from Capitol, where he was to perform his role in the counting of electoral votes.

Video from inside the Capitol showed Trump supporters marching through Statuary Hall. The US Capitol Police is asking for additional law enforcement for assistance, including federal authorities, per a source familiar.

The desperate effort to justify the rush on the Capitol:

On top of everything else he has done to overturn an election, this is how Trump reacted to Vice President Mike Pence doing the right and lawful thing when he refused Trump’s demand that he try to block confirmation by Congress of Joe Biden’s election win:

The President of the United States initiated and authored this debacle, threw fuel on the fire, and is now watching the end result of his handiwork – without an ounce of regret or remorse. And his loyal superfans have faithfully answered his call for chaos. This is what he wanted all along. What a terrible day for our country.

P.S. Here’s how bad things have gotten:

Trump owns this. All of it. And he needs to be held accountable.

UPDATE: Trump released this statement. It is about what you would expect: He identifies with the protesters, sympathizes with and understands their frustration and anger at the election being stolen, and then he implores them to go home while he tries to overturn an election and attempt a coup:

–Dana

578 Responses to “Chaos At The Capitol”

  1. While this should not surprise anyone, it still is unbelievable to watch unfold.

    Dana (cc9481)

  2. There will be a slew of Trumpers defending this outrage, no doubt.

    Dana (cc9481)

  3. Anyone who defends this here, ban them.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  4. Just awful.

    I really, really hope everyone of them is arrested.

    This is a federal trespassing right? Like, if someone where to jump the Whitehouse fence tresspassing?

    whembly (c30c83)

  5. Anyone breaking the law should be arrested.

    Willing to bet that these people will be treated more harshly in the media than rioters/arsonists/looters in 2020.

    And that will piss off conservatives even more, as it should.
    _

    harkin (933076)

  6. @6 It does piss me off. But, it doesn’t excuse this mob’s behavior now.

    whembly (c30c83)

  7. “From Nancy Pelosi’s office”

    Love to provide photographic proof of my crimes.

    Davethulhu (95ea9f)

  8. I understand the DOD has refused DC’s request for the National Guard to protect the Capitol.

    Never before in U.S. history has an armed crowd stormed the Capitol building and interrupted a session. Never before.

    And I am supposed to find this comparable to some antifa breaking windows last summer?

    This is a coup attempt. Being abetted by the president. He should be impeached immediately and subject to criminal penalties. But there will be a desperate attempt by Republicans and some media to pretend that this is somehow all normal or acceptable or maybe tolerable or let’s just pretend it didn’t happen.

    Victor (4959fb)

  9. Willing to bet that these people will be treated more harshly in the media than rioters/arsonists/looters in 2020.

    And that will piss off conservatives even more, as it should.

    The rioters during the summer should have been arrested and prosecuted. However, what these people are doing is worse, because they are trying to overthrow the government. The fact that you can’t see that, and that at a moment like this, your first reaction is to bless us all with a garbage whatabout take, shows that you have lost your fucking mind.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  10. Is this an attempt to prevent the votes from being counted? The proceedings seem to have been interrupted. They shouldn’t have done that.

    It still will not work, and when Mussolini made march on Rome, in Mach, 1922, it wouldn’t have worked had the right people stood firm and not made the prevention of bloodshed their highest aim.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_on_Rome

    When fascist troops entered Rome, Prime Minister Luigi Facta wished to declare a state of siege, but this was overruled by King Victor Emmanuel III. On the following day, 29 October 1922, the King appointed Mussolini as Prime Minister, thereby transferring political power to the fascists without armed conflict.

    If Donald Trump intentionally had anything to do with interrupting the proceedings, (which I think is the red line) he’s in trouble.

    That is serious enough for prosecution.

    Now this may be more some people who have latched on to him.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  11. @6 It does piss me off. But, it doesn’t excuse this mob’s behavior now.

    It ought not piss you off for the reasons I just articulated, but I appreciate your placing the focus on the inexcusable nature of this action today.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  12. I am not interested in hearing whatabouts and defenses of this today, and those who engage in it are going to be told off in no uncertain terms, at a minimum, and possibly banned. I’m sick of it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  13. This is why I’ve said that Trump, his Congressional objectors and his cultists are fascists.
    If it looks and smells like fascism…

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  14. Just awful.

    I really, really hope everyone of them is arrested.

    This is a federal trespassing right? Like, if someone where to jump the Whitehouse fence tresspassing?

    whembly (c30c83) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:14 pm

    It’s more then trespassing.

    They didn’t just go where the law says they’re not allowed. t

    They used force to storm the capital to prevent congress from certifying the results of a free and fair election. Results the states and already certified.
    Further they did at the urging of a loser of that election.

    This is a coupe attempt.
    It’s hopefully a badly planned and incompetently executed coup, but it’s a coupe attempt.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  15. CBS-

    Rep. Kevin McCarthy has confirmed that shots have been fired, not known by whom. Video shows Capitol police in hand to hand combat outside House chamber.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. Capitol Police, DC Police, other LE Agencies: Where are your guns?

    Hint: it is that metal thing hanging from your hip. You may want to use it.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  17. Once they illegally stormed inside our Capitol building, they no longer were protesters, they became rioters and criminals.
    Every single bit of this is on Trump.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  18. “The rioters during the summer should have been arrested and prosecuted. However, what these people are doing is worse, because they are trying to overthrow the government.”

    The garbage take is you being oblivious to the fact that 1) it wasn’t just summer and 2) that the treatment by media of the animals rioting/looting/burning of government buildings and private property was done to minimize the damage in votes to Democrats in Nov.

    Calling it not-so-bad-as-this would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad.
    _

    In an insane society, the same man must appear insane.
    _

    harkin (933076)

  19. “Not the Acting AG” Jeffrey Rosen on CBS:

    “The greatest fear of the founders was mob violence.”

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  20. @12

    @6 It does piss me off. But, it doesn’t excuse this mob’s behavior now.

    It ought not piss you off for the reasons I just articulated, but I appreciate your placing the focus on the inexcusable nature of this action today.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:21 pm

    The disparate treatment by the media is what pisses me off. That’s on the media.

    That said, the media treatment has ZERO to do with my outrage over what is happening now at the capital… that stands on it’s own infamous pedestal and they need to be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent possible.

    whembly (c30c83)

  21. Anyone breaking the law should be arrested.

    Willing to bet that these people will be treated more harshly in the media than rioters/arsonists/looters in 2020.

    And that will piss off conservatives even more, as it should.
    _

    harkin (933076) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:15 pm

    The loser of a free and fair election told is supporters to go to the capital and stop our constitutional process from happening. It’s sad that your first reaction is about how unfair it is that the media will be harsher with them then they were someone else. Again your first reaction is to worry that your tribe is being shown disrespect.

    Your tribe lied about the election.
    Your tribe’s leaders hatched plots to steal the election through some unconstitutional chicanery.
    Your tribe’s leader got angry that wouldn’t work and told a mob to go and to this.

    Your tribe, you and people like you, have show you aren’t worthy of respect.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  22. By the way, any conspiracy to start a riot earlier this year should also be prosecuted. The problem is finding out the facts, but the determination of investigators has something to do with that.

    I suppose the idea here is to argue that if midnight passes today with no president announced, no president or vice president can qualify because it is no longer the date fixed by law for counting the electoral votes.

    Which would mean…Nancy Pelosi becomes Acting president.

    They’ll need yet another argument or two to prevent that result.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  23. I dont know how long ago the video is from, but CNN showed protestors breaking glass windows and climbing through. Ridiculously scary.

    I really hope security for the actual inauguration day is better prepared for these nutjobs. Who knows what they’re capable of.

    johnnyagreeable (041dc0)

  24. 1968. Feeling a tad nostalgic. Alas, no Apollo 8 to save the day.

    ____

    These images are incredible; CNN reports woman shot. Shades of Kent State, 1970.

    CNN’s Jake Tapper, safe in TeeVee studio, blames Trump, Cruz and Hawley.

    A real journalist would slap on a flakjacket and gotothe story- and be reporting from the streets, a la Cronkite from Vietnam.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  25. “The rioters during the summer should have been arrested and prosecuted. However, what these people are doing is worse, because they are trying to overthrow the government.”

    The garbage take is you being oblivious to the fact that 1) it wasn’t just summer and 2) that the treatment by media of the animals rioting/looting/burning of government buildings and private property was done to minimize the damage in votes to Democrats in Nov.

    Calling it not-so-bad-as-this would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sad.
    _

    In an insane society, the same man must appear insane.
    _

    That’s going to be the last thing you say on this site today. Your contributions are not welcome at a time when people are breaking into the U.S. Capitol.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  26. @21, Whembly I want to be 100% clear. Nothing i said in 22 applies to you.

    The difference between what you said and Harkin said is massive, it’s the difference between someone that cares about the US, and someone that doesn’t.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  27. There is a reason the 20th amendment allowed a certain number of days between the counting of the votes and the inauguration.

    The constitution of the United States is not so easily defeated.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  28. The Capitol Police seem a bit underprepared, and overwhelmed.
    I thought it was funny when Guatemalans stormed their National Congress and set it on fire… funny because I’ve been to Guatemala and know that the political class there are concerned with themselves first, country second (to the extent it can feed themselves) and at a distant third, the people of Guatemala and then only to make sure they produce enough so the political class gets richer.
    I was part of prepping training fields for the Special Olympics and one of our teams was the Guatemalan squad. Great people. Then the Consularios and such show up, take all the handicap parking , take a couple of selfies on the field and a couple shots with a coach and three athletes and haul ass back to LA… never speaking to the athletes.

    Thought the sacking and burning could happen this year if any… we’ve had lots of street violence and no doubt some decided that now their ox got gored and now its their turn. Add to that all the COVID shutdowns and frustrations and people are fed up.

    Anybody predicting Trump pardons all these people yet?

    steveg (43b7a5)

  29. Willing to bet that these people will be treated more harshly in the media than rioters/arsonists/looters in 2020.
    _
    harkin (933076) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:15 pm

    For clarity’s sake, are the seditionists who stormed and are currently occupying the Capital protesters or rioters?

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  30. One thing people involved in disruption should know:

    Trump won’t pardon them.

    I don;t think so.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  31. @27 I didn’t take @22 as directed towards me, but thank you.

    whembly (c30c83)

  32. SteveG, The DOJ seemed to be able to use force to keep order when they want to. Seems like they didn’t want to use that much force today.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  33. Burn it to the ground.

    mg (8cbc69)

  34. @29

    Anybody predicting Trump pardons all these people yet?

    steveg (43b7a5) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:31 pm

    That would royally piss me off.

    whembly (c30c83)

  35. Burn what to the ground? The Capital? The GOP? what?

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  36. This has ben sadly long in waiting to boil over:

    “The peasants are coming with pitchforks,” [declares a chuckling Buchanan at his rallies. He compares his opponents with “knights and barons, riding into the castle, pulling up the drawbridge.”] – Pat Buchanan, 1996

    Now it’s anything. I remember watching similar scenes in Washington w/British friends in London back in 1968 and they were just gob-smacked it; and glad Vietnam and race riots were America’s problems, not theirs.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  37. 24. johnnyagreeable (041dc0) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:29 pm

    I really hope security for the actual inauguration day is better prepared for these nutjobs. Who knows what they’re capable of.

    On January 20, there will be a much larger security perimeter.

    There’s not going to be much of a crowd invited there, anyway because of the coronavirus.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  38. If, after this, McConnell does not join Schumer to expel Hawley, Cruz, and Johnson, I will be very disappointed.

    nk (1d9030)

  39. Following up. The DC National Guard is controlled by the President, not the Mayor. And they are denying requests to help.

    So perhaps this is why there were all those last minute changes to civilian leadership at the Pentagon?

    America is bigger than the Capitol Building. If it burned down one day we could build another one. But the fact that a powerful minority in the U.S. is determined to foment a coup is something that can’t be repaired so easily.

    Victor (4959fb)

  40. I see Patterico put Harkin in a time out, so I’ll re-state my question in #30 to beer ‘n pretzels, NJRob, and any other Trump defenders still out there:

    Are the seditionists who stormed and currently occupy the U.S. Capital protesters or rioters?

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  41. Those last two posted pics, just wow. I knew from the news that these Trump rioters broke into the Capitol, but seeing these images of them in the House chamber….I have no words. As for the whataboutisms from Trump superfans, they are already well at it on FB and Twitter. Absolutely disgusting, and to call it that is a gross understatement.

    HCI (92ea66)

  42. And I could be the one who’s fiddling while Rome burns. Let’s see if Congress ever reconvenes first.

    nk (1d9030)

  43. The “gosh don’t do that” from Ivanka and Kelly Anne make my eye twitch.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  44. The constitution, thirty-six.

    mg (8cbc69)

  45. Today is the one of best days in Putin’s life. Someone out there wishes Osama Bin Laden and Hitler were alive to see this.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  46. Those last two posted pics, just wow.

    How about this one?

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  47. I see Patterico put Harkin in a time out, so I’ll re-state my question in #30 to beer ‘n pretzels, NJRob, and any other Trump defenders still out there:

    Are the seditionists who stormed and currently occupy the U.S. Capital protesters or rioters?

    I put bnp in a time out too.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  48. @39. Yes, more chances to elect D senators.

    ‘Course if he’d put his ideology aside and just sent out those $2000 checks and had that stand alone vote so hurting citizens got some $ before Pakistan and Israel did, they’d have been out buying TV sets today instead of looting the Capitol– and this pot would likely never have boiled over. This was just the final straw and the steam had to blow.

    But they’d better stay away from the NASM. Or I’ll get mad. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  49. #10 “they are trying to overthrow the government”. They seem to think that was already accomplished.

    I’m going to flip subjects on you before you ban me… get this one in

    As of now my 107 year old great aunt is recovering nicely from COVID as is her 98 year old room mate. The restaurants, gyms etc have all been closed for 40 days and the cases are spiking in LA County anyway.
    People should be surrounding LA County Health office and Newsoms office in Sacramento.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  50. This: CNN reporting that staff are asking Trump to put out stronger statements and tell his supporters to leave but he is refusing to do so.

    And why would he? Things are going according to plan.

    P.S. He is reported to be watching events unfold on TV.

    Dana (cc9481)

  51. now they appear to be looting

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  52. Can we call it sedition yet?

    Pretty sure I’ve been doing that for a while. Moist recently here.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. Both so what? You conservative libertarians don’t have a dog in this fight. you just stand on the side lines and hold hands with the never trumpers. You are irrelevant as your moscow mitch mcconnell scampers away. This fight is between the progressives of the democrat party and populists who now control the republican party. Try running as a never trumpet in the republican party now! The libertarian party is that way!

    asset (886d0f)

  54. Anyone who defends this here, ban them.

    Pat, it’s your blog, but I’d rather smash their idiotic arguments with better speech than not hear them

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  55. And why would he? Things are going according to plan.

    Trump is such a petty petulant manchild that CNN’s abandonment of objectivity (which I’m not opposed to in this situation) and blaming Trump for this is probably one reason he won’t do it.

    johnnyagreeable (041dc0)

  56. @50. That’s great– bet she can use $2000 now, too. That’s the real story- CA is in a serious health crisis now and Newsom has lost control, rationing care, etc.

    People are truly scared around here.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  57. @55, it’s not they argue in good faith

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  58. I’m wondering how much support has fallen(if at all) for Trump among congressional Republicans, after what happened at the Capitol. Maybe it takes something awful like this for more GOPers to cut Trump loose once and for all. Time will tell.

    HCI (92ea66)

  59. harkin, in moderation, is accusing me of minimizing the riots in Portland etc. That’s a dirty lie, and until he apologizes, he is indeed banned.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  60. 51. Well, Mike Pence said something:

    The violence and destruction taking place at the US Capitol Must Stop and it Must Stop Now. Anyone involved must respect Law Enforcement officers and immediately leave the building, Peaceful protest is the right of every American but this attack on our Capitol will not be tolerated and those involved will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

    Donald Trump tweeted:

    Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful

    Followed by:

    I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!

    He’s afraid somebody will attack men in uniform.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  61. Instead of impeachment, which requires too long of a process, start with removing Trump under the 25th Amendment, right now. I’m looking at you, Pence. If you want to follow the Constitution today, do that.
    After that, Congress should impeach and convict this human scum so that he’ll never have the chance to return.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  62. #33

    They do not look fully geared up. I’m sure that the FBI has people inside the Proud Boys and other organizations and whatever intel they shared didn’t trigger a full strength response.

    So of it seems to be spur of the moment and dumb AF.
    Selfie at Pelosi’s desk?

    Wave to the camera as you take off with the Speaker’s podium?

    Amateur hour.
    Antifa would have the building on fire by now.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  63. They had better get DC under control soon because the counter protestors will come out at night and that’s when the real fun will begin.

    Hoi Polloi (093fb9)

  64. The problem with populism — which itself is a necessary correction when a democracy has lost the plot — is that it rarely does anything other than demolish. They are there because of what they want to change, but rebuilding is beyond them.

    As long as the GOP is run by people who have nothing positive to give, the direction the country takes will be guided by the Left. It’s time to put down the torches and pitchforks and go back to your homes. The points have been made. Now let those who know how to rebuild get on with it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  65. harkin, in moderation, is accusing me of minimizing the riots in Portland etc.

    And here I thought you were too harsh. You can’t win.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  66. I don;t think this can be the work of Donald Trump. But he has been used. I don’t think he was told about all the things that were going to happen.

    But it might be Putin.

    Or, of course, China or Iran.

    But do they have connections that could be used.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  67. He’s afraid somebody will attack men in uniform.

    Which in this context would be treasonous.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  68. Re the 2k and a big screen TV in lieu of marching into the Capitol…different crowds, hell, that might have enabled more ammo and better weapons.

    urbanleftbehind (20d986)

  69. Ivanka’s ‘gosh guys I had no idea’ calls the people trashing the capital “American Patriots” and then deletes the tweet. And this is a frontrunner for Senator in a swing state. We are in deep trouble as a nation. As Kevin remarked recently, in 2016 the GOP was poised to have some real progress. Instead we trashed our country.

    All these republicans who let this build, who encouraged the idea Trump would ‘release the Kraken’ or surprise us with a win today, they knew this was happening, and indeed they wanted it to happen.

    Trump needs to be removed from power immeadiately before he tries to go to war with Iran or China. He doesn’t want America to have a happy four years without him. That Georgia phone call proves this isn’t just about raising a little money and pretending to fight. They tried to steal the election, they tried hard, and every moment Trump is in power is a threat to you and yours.

    I would add that Ted Cruz and pals need to be removed from office. They are disgraces.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  70. Where is America’s Boris Yeltsin? No Congresscritters have the courage stand up on the Capitol steps and shout STOP?!

    Images of folks in Pelosi’s office on CNN. Just amazing.

    And the plagiarist-elect has said nothing.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  71. Remember when Trump had federal law enforcement clear a peaceful protest using tear gas, so that he could have a photo op at a church?

    Good times.

    Davethulhu (95ea9f)

  72. I had thought that Biden might pardon Trump. I see that such an event is off the table now. He is going to be forced to deal with Trump, however much oxygen that might consume, but when he’s done he won’t need to deal with it any longer.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  73. I don;t think any of this is spur of the moment, but I do think they surprised Trump. He would not have gone along with bombs -and at the RNC, which he controls?

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  74. Remember when Trump had federal law enforcement…

    I remember when he sent them into Portland to “defend government buildings.” As long as we are comparing things….

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. I don;t think this can be the work of Donald Trump. But he has been used. I don’t think he was told about all the things that were going to happen.

    But it might be Putin.

    Or, of course, China or Iran.

    But do they have connections that could be used.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:57 pm

    Sammy, while Putin, Iran, and China are likely amused by the spectacle, can you just let Trump own his own destructive behavior. Today didn’t just happen in a vacuum. He has been stoking the flames since he lost the election. (Even before that, but for the sake of today’s events, let’s stick to November 4). He has fomented, encouraged, and provoked his superfans into taking more and more action to support his baseless claims of election fraud. Nothing was off the table. And like clockwork, they mobilized when everything peaked. He is the author of this horrific chapter in our nation’s history. Signed, sealed, and delivered. Stop making excuses for him, or trying to relieve him of his responsibility.

    Dana (cc9481)

  76. Time123’s right. Bombs are being found. Who do you think threatened to crash a plane into the capital today?

    We are in trouble and need to take this seriously.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  77. In addition to all the Trump sniffers out there, you know who else loves this?
    Russia.
    China.
    Iran.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  78. I’m really not sure what to make of all this. It looks to me like Trump is inciting violence, though I’m not sure if those accusations would hold up if put to a jury.

    Gryph (f63000)

  79. Those folks milling around the Senate floor are going to be surprised at what happens to them. Felonies, prison, loss of jobs, a world of hurt.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  80. I’m not sure if those accusations would hold up if put to a jury.

    A D.C. jury?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  81. @70. They’ve already got those bases covered w/t $600. A $2K TeeVee would have been a pacifier. But a la Buchanan, this anger has been simmering in many forms for decades- the pitchforks at the gates thing. It just happened to be the straw that broke the camels back today. But I can tell you from personal experience back in 1968, seeing these sort of images from a perch overseas projects an image of the U.S. most Americans can’t see from home.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  82. 82. I’m from South Dakota. Thank God. I have a whole state in which I can cower away from this $h!t$how.

    Gryph (f63000)

  83. I don;t think this can be the work of Donald Trump. But he has been used. I don’t think he was told about all the things that were going to happen.

    Oh please, Trump has encouraged this since his talk about a “stolen” election, his promise that today would be “wild”, and his rally this morning. It’s all about Trump (as it always is), but it does benefit our adversaries.

    Rip Murdock (8bf811)

  84. Biden is speaking

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  85. 83. I’ve long believed that (properly and lawfully) naturalized citizens are more appreciative of what it means to be “American” than the native-born inhabitants here. Now, I weep for my republic.

    Gryph (f63000)

  86. https://twitter.com/i/status/1346920484009611264

    People milling around the Rotunda (I think that is what that room is called). Guy playing a guitar.
    Pleased to not see ACAB grafitti and none of the area lookes vandalized although I put even money on Pelosi finding a steaming dump on her desk.
    Democrats will probably say they found nooses, because they always say that. But lets all hope the Occupy Capitol ends in peace today and doesn’t turn into DC CHAZ

    steveg (43b7a5)

  87. “I remember when he sent them into Portland to “defend government buildings.””

    And promptly started abducting innocent people off the street.

    Davethulhu (95ea9f)

  88. The “pipe bomb” found at the Republican National Committee headquarters in D.C has been “safely detonated.”

    Someone posted that we’re not at the ’68-’74 kind of unrest, but damn we’re getting pretty close.

    whembly (c30c83)

  89. It is really hard for me to accept we need to give people nice TV sets to keep them from burning the capital down. I think that notion shows that the whole project led us here.

    One thing these people rioting need more than money: something to do. They need jobs. Maybe a job where they hit rocks with a sledgehammer on an island in the middle of the pacific ocean. or maybe FoxConn can build an iphone factory by Fort Leavenworth for them.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  90. 90.

    Someone posted that we’re not at the ’68-’74 kind of unrest, but damn we’re getting pretty close.

    We’re not? I was born in ’78, so I don’t really have a frame of reference here.

    Gryph (f63000)

  91. In 1974, after the “Smoking Gun” tape came out and Nixon’s support collapsed, the military let it be known that they had safeguards in place to prevent any unnecessary military actions.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. @81. Yes, the Capitol is more like a Chase Manhattan Bank vault than the people’s house.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  93. harkin, in moderation, is accusing me of minimizing the riots in Portland etc.

    And here I thought you were too harsh. You can’t win.

    Yup. Here’s the quote.

    How many times did you apply ‘Banana Republic’ to Seattle/Chicago/Portland/Minneapolis etc.?

    Oh, that’s right, that wasn’t so bad.

    I am in law enforcement. I have consistently been livid about the riots, the attacks on police, the burning of a police station — for someone to falsely accuse me of minimizing that is a banning offense.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  94. “Pleased to not see ACAB grafitti and none of the area lookes vandalized although I put even money on Pelosi finding a steaming dump on her desk.
    Democrats will probably say they found nooses, because they always say that. But lets all hope the Occupy Capitol ends in peace today and doesn’t turn into DC CHAZ”

    https://i.imgur.com/vau1xHy.png

    Just some good clean fun in the capitol.

    Davethulhu (95ea9f)

  95. Well, #79, now to find the Iran to Groyper link. Russia is too obvious and China could have just waited a couple weeks.

    urbanleftbehind (20d986)

  96. Biden has called this sedition and called Trump out to immediately “fulfill his oath” and demand the insurrection to cease.

    Trump will fail this chance, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  97. This doesn’t look like the female cop is in danger… she’s a hell of a lot braver than her chubby male colleague in another video.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1346926043584749571

    steveg (43b7a5)

  98. 98. Trump is a con man. A fraud. A liar to rival any other politician in America. Change my mind.

    Gryph (f63000)

  99. I am in law enforcement.

    A known fact, and I’d be surprised if you were any different. At times, I think that you are too accepting of information from that direction, but then we all have our professional biases. I was ripsh1t about charges that Hillary had ignored TS protocols, when others were more sanguine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. @92.Nah. It’s not that bad. In 68-74 – especially 1968 nd Krnt State in’70, it went on for months. This is just a day– with a lot more cameras and media platforms covering it.

    Biden giving a vapoous speech nw-safe in Wilmington. ‘his is the United States of America’ he whines…

    If Biden had Yeltsin’s balls, he’d fly to the Capitol, stand on the Capitol steps and demand this stop.

    But he doesn’t.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  101. A liar to rival any other politician in America. Change my mind.

    Most politicians are better liars. Prove me wrong.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  102. And the plagiarist-elect has said nothing.

    15 minutes later, Biden has completed his remarks, and issued a challenge for Trump to step up and tell these people to leave. Which we all know Trump won’t do.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  103. From Ted Cruz:

    Violence is always unacceptable. Even when passions run high.

    Anyone engaged in violence—especially against law enforcement—should be fully prosecuted.

    God bless the Capitol Police and the honorable men & women of law enforcement who show great courage keeping all of us safe.

    hose storming the Capitol need to stop NOW.

    The Constitution protects peaceful protest, but violence—from Left or Right— is ALWAYS wrong.

    And those engaged in violence are hurting the cause they say they support.

    And then Cruz responds directly to Beto O’Rourke, of all people:

    @BetoORourke
    · 23m
    It is your self serving attempt at sedition that has helped to inspire these terrorists and their attempted coup.

    Stop stoking division.

    Stop spreading hatred.

    Stop using malicious rhetoric (such as false & reckless charges of “sedition”).

    Stop showing contempt for the half of the country that disagrees with you.

    Violence is wrong. We can do better. We are one Nation. #EPluribusUnum

    SMDH.

    Dana (cc9481)

  104. CNN-
    Entire DC NG activated.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  105. 102. There’s no telling how long this could go on. Don’t assume it’s going to end today. I hope to God it does, but even Biden’s inauguration may not necessarily end the civil unrest we’ve seen on display here.

    Gryph (f63000)

  106. Disclose.tv Police cars revolving light

    @disclosetv
    ·
    19m
    JUST IN –
    @Mike_Pence
    has just unfollowed @realDonaldTrump on Twitter

    Having trouble validating this, but damn please let it be true.

    whembly (c30c83)

  107. Rep. Carl Bush is introducing a resolution to expel the house members he believes have been inciting this.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  108. After I posted exactly what harkin said, I returned to moderation where he accused me of mischaracterizing his comments by saying he claimed I had “minimized” the riots.

    Luckily before seeing this new accusation, I had already posted his comment exactly. Y’all can make up your own minds as to whether he accused me of minimizing those riots.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  109. There are now maybe a thousand police getting ready to end this. A lot of these protestors are going to find they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  110. Rep. Carl Bush is introducing a resolution to expel the house members he believes have been inciting this.

    Good.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  111. Curtis Houck captured some screen shots regarding Mike Pence unfollowing Trump on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/CurtisHouck/status/1346924045518974976?s=20

    HCI (92ea66)

  112. 103. Most politicians aren’t as widely admired as Trump is…? Or appears to be…? 75+ million votes is a lot of people to get taken by a con man no matter how you slice that cake.

    Gryph (f63000)

  113. @102-
    If Biden had Yeltsin’s balls, he’d fly to the Capitol, stand on the Capitol steps and demand this stop.

    Why should Biden do that? Trump is President.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  114. Will Cruz continue?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  115. HCI,

    I think he deleted it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  116. Sedition?
    Please. The Chesa Boudin school of criminal charging has brought that down to a citation… more of a leaflet really

    steveg (43b7a5)

  117. Will Cruz continue?

    That’s a good f*cking question, isn’t it?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  118. 75+ million votes

    I hear there was a national clothespin shortage that day.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  119. @108 OMG, if this pict isn’t doctored Pence *did* unfollow Trump!
    https://twitter.com/KennyNamasaka/status/1346927199245402113

    whembly (c30c83)

  120. Rep. Carl Bush is introducing a resolution to expel the house members he believes have been inciting this.

    Marjorie Taylor Greene should obviously be one of them.

    HCI (92ea66)

  121. 118. I’d love to see every politician giving aid and comfort to China held accountable, but I’m not holding my breath.

    Gryph (f63000)

  122. @112

    Rep. Carl Bush is introducing a resolution to expel the house members he believes have been inciting this.

    Good.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:18 pm

    Agreed.

    whembly (c30c83)

  123. Disclose.tv Police cars revolving light

    @disclosetv
    ·
    19m
    JUST IN –
    @Mike_Pence
    has just unfollowed @realDonaldTrump on Twitter

    Having trouble validating this, but damn please let it be true.

    Not according to Pence’s twitter feed.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  124. Trump couldn’t even give a calm-down message without lying through his teeth.
    25th Amendment, right now.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  125. Rep. Carl Bush is introducing a resolution to expel the house members he believes have been inciting this.

    Good.

    Patterico (115b1f) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:18 pm

    is that the same thing as an impeachment? If not I don’t support it. They were put their by their voters.

    However stripping them of seniority and committee appointments seems fine.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  126. @115

    @102-

    If Biden had Yeltsin’s balls, he’d fly to the Capitol, stand on the Capitol steps and demand this stop.

    Why should Biden do that? Trump is President.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:18 pm

    I’d respect the holy hell out of Biden for doing so… granted, it wouldn’t be safe for him to do so as the SS would likely shut that idea down.

    whembly (c30c83)

  127. Trump is now asking his supporters to go home, but repeats that the election was stolen.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  128. According to Curtis Houck, he says Pence is now refollowing Trump. He says that is why he his deleted his previous thread.

    https://twitter.com/CurtisHouck/status/1346928501455085573?s=20

    HCI (92ea66)

  129. Kevin – left wing social media is full of angry comparisons between this and how the BLM protests were handled.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  130. There’s some of The Donald in Tedtoo. He likes the spotlight and wants the 74-plus million Trumpsters to rally to him for 2024– and if that means grabbing the Trump banner for attention, he’ll do it.

    ____

    It’s these faux journalists who are the big disappointment–t least to me. Real reporters would be out in the street reporting on events first hand, not opinionating safe in a secure TV studio, a la Jake The Tapper.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  131. I’m not sure if those accusations would hold up if put to a jury.

    A D.C. jury?

    No. As someone who believes Trump has committed multiple crimes for which he should be charged, including maybe the Georgia phone call, his encouragement of these seditious rioters should get him impeached and barred from public office, but I strongly doubt he’s crossed the Brandenburg line into prosecutable incitement.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  132. CNN anchors are calling for Trump to be removed. #FakeNews

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  133. Sedition?
    Please. The Chesa Boudin school of criminal charging has brought that down to a citation… more of a leaflet really

    Don’t get me started about that. But if Trump doesn’t pardon these people, it’s up to Jeffrey Rosen in the first instance, and then Merrick Garland, how to handle it. Not that lawless loser Boudin.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  134. @121

    @108 OMG, if this pict isn’t doctored Pence *did* unfollow Trump!
    https://twitter.com/KennyNamasaka/status/1346927199245402113

    whembly (c30c83) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:20 pm

    Looks like it was a doctored image, he updated it showing he’s still following Trump.

    Bah. Too good to be true.

    whembly (c30c83)

  135. Time123 – no, it’s not impeachment. it’s expulsion. The argument is that they have encouraged an armed rebellion against the US and therefore are disqualified from holding the office. There’s precedent for this, but not in more than a century and a half.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  136. Will Cruz continue?

    If there is an motion to expel Ted Cruz from the Senate, he would need 17 Republicans, assuming all 50 Democrats hold firm. So that means all Democrats plus a third of the Senate GOP conference. He probably would resign if the numbers are there for his expulsion.

    HCI (92ea66)

  137. lurker,

    Given a long string of comments he’s made over the last few months about how his supporters should “stand ready” and such, it would not surprise me if he had actively assisted in organizing this.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  138. Members of Congress cannot be impeached, but they can be expelled.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  139. HCI,

    Maybe. He’d shut up if he was worried about it. Maybe he thinks it would put him at the front of Trump’s posse after Trump is impeached.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  140. Jon Ossoff won his runoff.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  141. @140, thank you for the clarification.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  142. If you cant bail Trump on incitement, nab Giuliani, who actually said “combat”.

    https://news.yahoo.com/giuliani-calls-trial-combat-d-180408746.html

    And Rep. Cawthorn can go star in a remake of Battleship Potempkin as far as I’m concerned.

    urbanleftbehind (20d986)

  143. Kevin – left wing social media is full of angry comparisons between this and how the BLM protests were handled.

    I’d be upset, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  144. Sedition charges would be prophetic

    steveg (43b7a5)

  145. CNN calls both GA elections for the Dems

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. Trump is on TV saying “We love you” to the protestors, saying “we know how you feel” and that the election was stolen. he also adds they should go home now, but good grief he just encouraged and praised a violent mob.

    Trump will certainly pardon these folks. he is saying “We love you!” to them!

    Removing Trump needs to happen today. Just shut his administration down.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  147. If the GOP and RNC had any balls, they would kick Trump out of the party, effective immediately.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  148. #145
    Where’s the fires?
    I don’t have a TV and have to say that Antifa does better fireworks

    steveg (43b7a5)

  149. The doom bell tolls again; Fox News calls it for Ossoff in Georgia.

    Bring on them $2000 check and vaccine shots, Chuckie!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  150. Question: If you saw an employee of yours on camera at this event, would you consider firing them?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  151. Bring on them $2000 check and vaccine shots, Chuckie!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:33 pm

    Man, I hope you get both, but let’s not change the subject from the main issue, removing Trump from office today, followed by the coup caucus.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  152. If the GOP and RNC had any balls, they would kick Trump out of the party, effective immediately.

    Ronna McDaniel, uber-Trumpist, is RNC chair.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  153. This was Ivanka’s now-deleted tweet:

    “American patriots…Any security breach or disrespect to our law enforcement is unacceptable,” she wrote. “The violence must stop immediately. Please be peaceful.”

    Dana (cc9481)

  154. This is absolutely unbelievable:

    @rebeccaballhaus
    The National Association of Manufacturers calls on Pence to “seriously consider” working with the Cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment “to preserve democracy.”
    https://twitter.com/rebeccaballhaus/status/1346928521667600384/photo/1

    I think it would be a huge escalation to apply the 25th and would be a “break norms to save norms” tactic.

    Impeachment is much more appropriate means to censure Trump, that can even be done when Trump leaves office and has the additional benefit of preventing Trump from running again.

    whembly (c30c83)

  155. Ironically this riot will make protesting in DC even more restrictive.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  156. Look like a woman was shot inside the Capitol?
    (Well they think she was shot… hard to tell)

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1346913859102253056

    steveg (43b7a5)

  157. The Plagiarist-elect plagiarizes again: calls Capitol the ‘Citadel of Liberty’-steals from Aaron Burr:

    “[The Senate] is a sanctuary; a citadel of law, of order, and of liberty”- Aaron Burr

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  158. As far as the BLM protestors, in Santa Monica there were two groups. One was a bunch of youthful local protestors, the other were organized looting gangs. The gangs stripped the local mall of all its goods with not police opposition. The police were busy beating the crap out of the protesting kids.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  159. Expulsions are more likely in the House than in the Senate. I don’t see how a Democrat in the House can vote against this if it gets to the floor.

    Expulsion is a terrible line to cross, but the House chamber was stormed by armed terrorists today.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  160. 159. I believe Aaron Burr said that *before* the Senate was brought into the modern vote-buying scheme that is the American body-politic.

    Gryph (f63000)

  161. Santorum thinks Trump is done.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  162. Trump was a public health menace with his lies about CV19, his mixed messaging on masks and his tacit endorsement of pre-vaccine herd immunity.
    Today, Trump is an unqualified menace to America.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  163. Expulsion is a terrible line to cross

    They won’t be able to expel more than a few. Gohmert, one or two more, but not 140 members. That would be far worse than not seating someone in a close election.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  164. Dana (cc9481) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:01 pm

    I completely agree with Dana. Everything points to Trump – it’s not complicated. Also, anyone who destroys anything, intentionally, stops being a protester and becomes a rioter right then, and there. It should not matter where their location at the Capitol may be.

    The day is not over, so I have no idea how close to ’68 we’ll get.

    felipe (630e0b)

  165. Given a long string of comments he’s made over the last few months about how his supporters should “stand ready” and such, it would not surprise me if he had actively assisted in organizing this.

    Oh, I’m quite certain he actively assisted and, in the colloquial sense, incited it. But the Brandenburg test for prosecutable incitement is specific and narrow. It has to be speech that’s directed at inciting or producing imminent lawless action, and likely to incite or produce such action.

    Trump is morally responsible for all of this. He and his Vichy enablers should be held politically accountable. But the First Amendment protects lots of morally reprehensible speech, including IMO Trump’s in this instance.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  166. I don’t agree with expulsions of members of Congress, Patterico. I am in favor of censure, and I hope that every single objector faces serious challenges in the next election, primary and general.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  167. @153. You don’t get ,Dustin; revisit #37. It has been simmering for years- Pat Buchanan tims, circa 1996. Today was just the steam just blew. Doesn’t make it right, but it has been coming on for years. $2000 may have likely avoided this today. No guarantee, but the obtuse an isolated ideologue Turtle didn’t help; too clever by half– and he lost his gig.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  168. Question: If you saw an employee of yours on camera at this event, would you consider firing them?

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:34 pm

    I’d call the FBI to identify them. If it was proven they were there committing crimes then yes.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  169. I think it would be a huge escalation to apply the 25th and would be a “break norms to save norms” tactic.

    I like the phrasing, break norms to save norms. Would it be an escalation? From goons trashing the Capitol as Trump says he loves them and Ivanka calls them patriots? I guess to some it would be. To some, who would accept Pence isn’t really deep state, it would not be.

    Beyond the pragmatic, is Trump sanely honoring his oath to preserve the country by amping up the goons with his speech? It’s a crazy thing to do, or it’s a cunning betrayal. I think the 25th amendment might as well not exist if it doesn’t apply.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  170. I don’t agree with expulsions of members of Congress, Patterico. I am in favor of censure, and I hope that every single objector faces serious challenges in the next election, primary and general.

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:43 pm

    0 senority
    no committee seats.

    Anything less is a slap on the wrist.

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  171. Words matter. We’ve been told over and over for 4 years that Trump is just kidding….or we shouldn’t take him seriously…he’s just playing the media. Well, here’s a case where obviously a whole bunch of people took him seriously, despite having no real evidence to back him up. The mob in action. This is why you cannot throw aside norms and give trust to someone of low character. This will likely end without much ado, but the intent was there….and at minimum it is grossly irresponsible by Trump. I doubt he will get impeached absent another shoe dropping…..but he’s sure doing his best to make the case.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  172. CNN is now calling this a ‘coup attempt’- safe in their studios. Such theatre; I remember the genuine, real fear in the streets of London, even a few hundred miles from Prague, the day the tanks rolled into the city in 1968.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  173. #169

    Sorry bub. No. What would have stopped this is Trump accepting the results of an election he lost.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  174. Seditious conspiracy. No Brandenburgers need apply.

    nk (1d9030)

  175. Sorry bub. No. What would have stopped this is Trump accepting the results of an election he lost.
    Appalled (1a17de) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:48 pm

    That’s right.

    felipe (630e0b)

  176. CNN-
    Police are deploying to clear Capitol grounds, apparent police snipers on Capitol roof.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  177. 173. Totally agree right up until “I doubt he will get impeached absent another shoe dropping….” If Trump won’t be impeached for what’s already known, there’s no as yet undropped shoe in this universe that will do it.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  178. #169

    Any resemblance to this mob and the bonus marchers is strictly non-existent.

    Appalled (1a17de)

  179. Wish there was video of Congresscritters smacking each other with canes back in the day. Guess we’ll have to settle for Currier and Ives lithographs. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  180. This will fail, but it’s also clearly a coup attempt. We should openly call it what it is.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  181. Reportedly Rep. Omar is working on an impeachment resolution.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  182. “$2000 may have likely avoided this today”

    That’s just silly. The rioters were protesting the certification of the electoral college votes. Why are you giving moral cover to them?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  183. I’d fire them if they are on video breaking windows, defacing things.
    If it plays out that a long term employee with family, stellar work record, talent got charged with “unlawful assembly” for milling around inside on video, I’d probably tell them they made a huge mistake going inside, being a part of that, and were on their last chance.

    I don’t think that would ever happen though. Every one of my men is someone I look up to and trust.

    steveg (43b7a5)

  184. Seditious conspiracy. No Brandenburgers need apply.
    nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:48 pm

    I doubt you could prove the required force or violence was an intended, agreed upon part of the conspiracy.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  185. They told me if I voted for Biden, lawless mobs would run rampant in the streets…and they were right!

    Dave (1bb933)

  186. I’ve updated the post with Trump’s video statement.

    Dana (cc9481)

  187. 186. Also, I’m neither a national security nor First Amendment lawyer, so I’m out of my depth expertise-wise, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Brandenburg is indeed a limitation on the sedition laws. But like I said, I don’t really know. I’m just spitballing.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  188. @115. Why did Yeltsin do it? Gorby was in charge.

    It’s called leadership. So much for the ‘bring us together’ plagiarist-elect. The guy is fast becoming a comma in the book of life.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  189. I must admit that “mostly peaceful” is as accurate here as it was in Portland. But that’s not really the point, is it?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  190. DCSCA, you’re coming across like you don’t take this seriously. Because they didn’t use tanks or because they should have gotten a check in exchange for peace.

    What they need are jobs, not checks. We do not need more idle losers. I’ve met a lot of nutty protestors, I am sure I’ve arrested a few who were on the hill today actually, and they all seem to get plenty of government money one way or another. They do not need to work. Work is dignity, and trashing your own capital is undignified to say the least.

    Frankly what we need now is a decisive answer from law enforcement, to deter this behavior.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  191. bellingcat has a piece on how some of these pro-Trump groups converged today. Trump gave out the word, and the “network” responded.
    There are not a lot of good people who converged on our Capitol today. If they’re the kind of people who verbally assaulted Romney at an airport and on a plane, definitely not.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  192. The Capitol historian reports this was the first breach of the Capitol since the Brits assaulted it in the War of 1812. Fashion note- the Redcoats were better dressed.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  193. “If Trump won’t be impeached for what’s already known, there’s no as yet undropped shoe in this universe that will do it.”

    All but one GOP Senator saw or heard any evil in the first impeachment hearing. This is not exactly a profiles in courage group/party. I unequivocally would support impeachment….and would have favored expanding the original charges to other cases of incompetence and obstruction. But getting that impeachment vote will mean persuading a whole lot of people who will argue that he did not directly coordinate this behavior, participate in it, or, in the end, directly encourage it (though the call to the Governor certainly adds to the seriousness). As always, he has a weasel defense….and as we saw before….enough Senators have to feel the pressure from back home to get them to act and vote to remove. Most like Graham will just say to wait the two weeks. If you had dead cops…a burned capitol….bombs going off around town….then you get the unavoidable outrage. Right now it’s just more drama for DCSCA to eat popcorn to….and indulge nostalgia

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  194. Does anyone think that the seditious Members of Congress will:

    a) Continue to challenge the electoral votes, or

    b) Be chastened by today’s events and drop the challenges?

    I think some of the deadenders will continue, but their support in the House and Senate votes will end up in the single digits.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  195. @194-

    He forgot the Weather Underground bombings.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  196. Lurker, I am no lawyer of any kind but Oyez says:

    The Court used a two-pronged test to evaluate speech acts: (1) speech can be prohibited if it is “directed at inciting or producing imminent lawless action” and (2) it is “likely to incite or produce such action.”

    I’d have to say yes to both points.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  197. Militia members gather outside the Georgia Capitol as pro-Trump rioters storm Washington DC

    Militia members gathered around the Georgia Capitol in Atlanta, as Pro-Trump rioters in DC attempted to take matters into their own hands and prevent Congress from certifying President-elect Joe Biden’s electoral college win by storming the US Capitol.

    Capitol Police escorted Georgia’s secretary of state Brad Raffensperger and his staff out of the building, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported.

    Dave (1bb933)

  198. He forgot the Weather Underground bombings.

    They’ve been forgetting those all day. Wonder why?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  199. “…What they need are jobs, not checks….”

    They’re rioting because they love Trump and don’t want to see him go. This isn’t some pressure cooker response to economic uncertainty. That’s not what the flags and shirts are voicing. They heard that the election was rigged….and they’re doing something about it.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  200. @192. On the contrary- revisit Pat Buchanan, circa 1996. This is just one day- wistful memories of a whole year- 1968. No Vietnam, just a Covid pandemic instead. Unless you’ve been asleep for decades, this anger has been simmering a long time and this was just the final catalyst that boiled it over. Have hard data on this; it’s not a left/right thing. It’s the rise of populism. The big losers in this are the zealot ideologues on both sides. People are tired of being trickled on. They want things done. Some of them, now, just wanna ‘groove on the ruble.’

    “Senator… don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.” – Fletcher [John Vernon] ‘The Outlaw Josey Wales’ 1976

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  201. Your pinned Tweet used to be about how if people thought they couldn’t be heard at the ballot, they’d resort to violence, which I thought was quite apropos to today’s events. Any reason why it isn’t pinned anymore? Too relevant?

    “What they need are jobs, not checks. We do not need more idle losers.”

    The heck do you think the covid lockdowns deprived these people of unjustly by government fiat, smartass?

    Viking Speaker (d6257b)

  202. I’m just making one post and then back on my hiatus.

    This is insane and stupid. The organizers should be brought up on charges and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. The dumb ones who think they are just having fun and going along with with crowd will be in a world of hurt.

    Bye now.

    NJRob (5d9f81)

  203. What they need are jobs, not checks.

    Pfffft. In a pandemic. Tell that to the Israelis and Pakistanians- and your landlord.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  204. Apparently, Democrats started it all with the dastardly act of boycotting an inauguration in 2017, which caused the poor victimized Trump supporters to fight back by storming the Capitol and trying to pull off a violent coup, or at least start a civil war.

    @AriFleischer: If you don’t like what’s happening today, maybe you should go back four years, look in the mirror and ask if it was a good idea to declare #NotMyPresident, declare yourself the Resistance, and boycott an Inaugural. When one side violates norms, the other side will too.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  205. Here is what Trump told the rioters not long ago:

    “We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel.”

    He could just told them that they’re “very fine people”.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  206. “Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!”

    Trump told the truth, for once.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  207. These protests can all be judged by one metric: if you saw these scenes in, say, Belarus, you would have concluded that the government had lost legitimacy and should be replaced. I hear Congress’s ratings are looooooooooooow these days.

    Turns out Trump was better at Color Revolution than the CIA was, who’da thunk.

    Viking Speaker (28a243)

  208. I’m sorry I lived to see the country I love brought so low.

    Dave (1bb933)

  209. @191

    I must admit that “mostly peaceful” is as accurate here as it was in Portland. But that’s not really the point, is it?

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:04 pm

    The point is that it is just as unacceptable when BLM et. el rioted over the last year, in which the media broadly gave favorable coverage, as it is unacceptable for today’s mob action at the US capital.

    I mean, what could possibly have given these morons the idea to think that there wouldn’t be any consequences for attacking and occupying a government building??? Is it really that much a mystery to everyone??

    These kind of things will continue to happen until there are reliable, predictable, and harsh consequences for this kind of behavior. That is is NOT ok, it has NEVER been okay – that we should condemn it all the time or we will just get more of it.

    whembly (c30c83)

  210. 73. Davethulhu (95ea9f) — 1/6/2021 @ 12:59 pm

    Remember when Trump had federal law enforcement clear a peaceful protest using tear gas, so that he could have a photo op at a church?

    This time, it was protesters who used tear gas on the police!

    That’s how they got onto the grounds of the Capitol.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  211. Rep. Carl Bush is introducing a resolution to expel the house members he believes have been inciting this.

    aphrael (4c4719) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:17 pm

    Who?! There’s no such person in Congress. There’s a Cori Bush, but SHE is from Missouri.

    Demosthenes (1528a2)

  212. @195. The Buckley’d Birchers are quite nostalgic, AJ; history rhymes. In case of emergency, break glass and shout Reagan. See what happens; they yawned at the ideologues in 2012 when they tried it.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  213. whembly, the point is that a violent mob has breached the security of the US capital and stopped the counting of electoral votes and you want to change the subject to a different event where you think people you don’t like behaved badly.

    meanwhile, the rest of us are watching hoping this genie can be put back in the bottle.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  214. 210.I’m sorry I lived to see the country I love brought so low.

    It’s been lower: Dallas, TX., November 22, 1963.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  215. Not meaning to imply that Missouri is not a part of the United States.

    (Though…Hawley…well…)

    Meaning to say, Cori Bush is a woman, not a man.

    Demosthenes (1528a2)

  216. Michael Morell told CBS, in answer to a question, that they had never gamed out a situation like this in all their tabletop exercises.

    He also didn’;t think Russia was involved because Russia hadn’t done much in the 2020 election.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  217. They’re rioting because they love Trump and don’t want to see him go. This isn’t some pressure cooker response to economic uncertainty. That’s not what the flags and shirts are voicing. They heard that the election was rigged….and they’re doing something about it.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:15 pm

    to be clear, I know you’re right.

    I’m just responding to the notion this check would have stopped the coup attempt today. Trump’s reaction to this was to tell them the election really was stolen today and “we love you!”. That’s where this is coming from. Trump should be impeached right now for that.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  218. ‘For our country!’: Trump world pleads with the president to condemn storming of the Capitol
    …..
    Trump has tweeted twice since rioters breached the Capitol complex, grinding to a halt Congress’ certification of Biden’s victory and plunging the nation’s capital to chaos, though neither message urged protesters in the building to leave.

    That’s insufficient, former chief of staff Mick Mulvaney tweeted Wednesday afternoon.

    “The President’s tweet is not enough,” Mulvaney wrote. “He can stop this now and needs to do exactly that. Tell these folks to go home.”

    Reince Priebus, another ex-chief of staff, denounced the rioters as “nothing but domestic terrorists” and called their actions “pure insanity.”

    “These violent people have no respect for democracy,” Priebus wrote on Twitter.

    Brad Parscale, Trump’s erstwhile campaign manager, said it was sullying the president’s political legacy.
    ……

    Kellyanne Conway, another former campaign manager and senior White House adviser, was more direct in her plea for the violent protest to end.

    “STOP. Just STOP. Peace. Law and Order. Safety for All,” Conway tweeted.
    ……

    From George Conway’s Twitter feed:

    George Conway Retweeted

    George Conway
    @gtconway3d

    Anyone out there have any doubt now that
    @realDonaldTrump is a psychopath?

    He also has a long thread on the 25th Amendment….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  219. The electoral ballots narrowly escaped falling into the hands of the fascist mob:

    Lawmaker says staff were able to remove electoral ballots before rioters breached Senate floor

    Dave (1bb933)

  220. I’m sorry I lived to see the country I love brought so low.

    Dave (1bb933) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:25 pm

    My 90-year old mom just told me basically the same thing. She was in a bit of shock.

    Dana (bb0488)

  221. David French (tweet): “Tell me again that character doesn’t matter.” Exactly.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  222. If I were a man named Ari Fleischer, regardless of my professed political leanings, I’d be watching my back around some of those new friends of his.

    urbanleftbehind (20d986)

  223. French is irrelevant.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  224. “The point is that it is just as unacceptable when BLM et. el rioted over the last year, in which the media broadly gave favorable coverage, as it is unacceptable for today’s mob action at the US capital.”

    The media and Congress gave them favorable coverage and lenient treatment because THEY SUPPORTED THEM. Now they suffer the consequences for doing so. Fairness is maintained.

    “I mean, what could possibly have given these morons the idea to think that there wouldn’t be any consequences for attacking and occupying a government building??? Is it really that much a mystery to everyone??”

    They saw that the government responds to force and popularity. No harm, no foul.

    “These kind of things will continue to happen until there are reliable, predictable, and harsh consequences for this kind of behavior.”

    And while there isn’t, happenings like these should be leniently treated in the interest of fairness to all sides.

    “That is is NOT ok, it has NEVER been okay – that we should condemn it all the time or we will just get more of it.”

    No one has the energy to sit there condemning things all the time, and if the people in power refuse to take action when it happens the first time, why should anyone begrudge them their just and expected consequences when it happens a second time?

    Viking Speaker (1ecab9)

  225. Is it too much to ask that a couple of white guys from the D side call for the impeachment vote?

    urbanleftbehind (20d986)

  226. Radegunda (b6cc34) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:21 pm

    I’m pretty sure that is how escalation works. The next escalation will find a tweeter using today’s events as an excuse for the latest outrage. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    felipe (630e0b)

  227. @223. Ask her about 11/22/63, or 12/7/41… or 8/8/74… or 9/11/01.

    Great Depression aside, in my chats w/mine [which I miss dearly] she felt 12/7 and 11/22 were the worst. It’s been lower than this day of venting.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  228. This Is a Coup
    ……
    As the chaos spread, Trump’s son Donald Trump Jr. tweeted, “This is wrong and not who we are.” But this is exactly who the members of the Trump clique are. The president and his circle have mounted a four-year assault on the rule of law, and this is the logical end of both that tendency and the president’s specific words. Indeed, the president continued to fuel the fire throughout the afternoon. He first raged at Pence, who said he did not have the power to overturn the vote and said, “USA demands the truth!” He added, in another tweet, “Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!” Later, demonstrating his tendency to view himself more as the leader of the Republican Party than of the nation, he added, “Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue.” Trump did not, however, call on protesters to leave.

    Later in the afternoon, Trump released a video in which he called on the mob to “go home and go home in peace” but did not condemn their behavior, instead saying, “We love you; you’re very special.” (The moment echoed his coddling of white supremacist marchers in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2017.)……..
    …….
    For four years, Trump’s critics have been accused of hysteria and hyperbole for describing his movement as fascist, authoritarian, or lawless. Today, as Congress attempts to certify the election of a new president, the president has vindicated those critics. In attempting this coup, Trump has also vindicated the Americans who voted decisively in November to remove him from office.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  229. Is it too much to ask that a couple of white guys from the D side call for the impeachment vote?

    What does race have to do with it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  230. It is rather amusing to hear from ambassadors and other heads of government expressing shock over this- yet they still want their check from the U.S. Treasury to clear.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  231. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErFNsR6XYAIyKH8.png implies that DoD is now making deployment decisions after consultation with the VP and the Congressional leadership and is *not* consulting the President.

    That is simultaneously terrifying and relieving.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  232. @231. This is a coup.

    Except it’s not. It’s a Congressional panty raid.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  233. “The point is that it is just as unacceptable when BLM et. el rioted over the last year, in which the media broadly gave favorable coverage, as it is unacceptable for today’s mob action at the US capital.”

    The media and Congress gave them favorable coverage and lenient treatment because THEY SUPPORTED THEM. Now they suffer the consequences for doing so. Fairness is maintained.

    “I mean, what could possibly have given these morons the idea to think that there wouldn’t be any consequences for attacking and occupying a government building??? Is it really that much a mystery to everyone??”

    They saw that the government responds to force and popularity. No harm, no foul.

    “These kind of things will continue to happen until there are reliable, predictable, and harsh consequences for this kind of behavior.”

    And while there isn’t, happenings like these should be leniently treated in the interest of fairness to all sides.

    “That is is NOT ok, it has NEVER been okay – that we should condemn it all the time or we will just get more of it.”

    No one has the energy to sit there condemning things all the time, and if the people in power refuse to take action when it happens the first time, why should anyone begrudge them their just and expected consequences when it happens a second time?

    Viking Speaker (1ecab9) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:34 pm

    Your moral equivalence is based on lies.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  234. Ted Cruz sent out a fundraising text message in the middle of the assault on the capitol.

    Because, of course he did:

    Ted Cruz here. I’m leading the fight to reject electors from key states unless there is an emergency audit of the election results. Will you stand with me?

    *Chef kiss*

    Dave (1bb933)

  235. Is it too much to ask that a couple of white guys from the D side call for the impeachment vote?

    What does race have to do with it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:40 pm

    I’ll bet it matters a lot of the rioters carrying confederate flags.

    Time123 (69b2fc)

  236. Anyone who defends this here, ban them.

    This looks close enough to me:

    This is a coup.

    Except it’s not. It’s a Congressional panty raid.

    Dave (1bb933)

  237. CCD @#234-

    ….talking of TREASON and INSURRECTION and UNPRECEDENTED DISOBEDIENCE AGAINST PROCEDURAL NORMS today.

    Speaking of overwrought, Trump and his supporters use all of those terms to describe those who hold opposite views-invoking martial law, the Insurrection Act, “watering the Tree of Liberty”, Civil War II, describing governors and election officials of states that Trump lost as committing treason.

    But today the shoe fits.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  238. while i think the army just technically carried out a coup against the president, they appear to be acting to preserve the constitutional order and protect the republic, and while i am furious beyond belief that we’re in a situation where the army is the guarantor of our democracy, i’m damned proud of them for doing it.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  239. I’m pretty sure that is how escalation works. The next escalation will find a tweeter using today’s events as an excuse for the latest outrage. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    No, that’s how people try to justify something much worse than what they complained about the other side doing.
    There’s no natural law saying that a boycott of an inauguration must be answered with a coup attempt — which is what Fleischer is trying to do. He’s saying “Hey, my side isn’t to blame for what they’re doing. Your side is to blame.”

    It’s disgusting.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  240. What this has revealed is how cowardly our so called leaders truly are.

    No Yeltsins, no Mandellas– no MLKs… no Jeffersons, no Franklins no Adams or Lincolns. Just a bunch of obtuse, isolated, frightened congresscritters w/their knickers in a twist running away from a group of angry ‘kids.’

    If only Kamala had stood in the doorway the Capitol, arms crossed like a Big Mama and scolded them!

    ‘Balls, said the queen; if I had’em I’d be the king’ eh girl?! 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  241. Is it too much to ask that a couple of white guys from the D side call for the impeachment vote?

    What does race have to do with it?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:40 pm

    I’ll bet it matters a lot of the rioters carrying confederate flags.

    It wouldn’t even if they were white Republicans. They would be instantly denounced as traitors.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  242. DCSA

    Do you shoot people, break windows and steal things during panty raids? Isn’t Congress a more important thing to portect than a college dorm room?

    It was kind of predictable that the unprecedented storming of the Capitol in a successful attempt to delay important legislative business would be shrugged off by the right, but it’s still entertaining to watch it in real time.

    Victor (4959fb)

  243. To RIP Murdick:

    Having a militant Somali and a freshman BLM stalwart doesn’t have the same cachet as a milquetoast rep from a suburban or exurban district who maybe can bring along some Rs, disappointing asvthat sounds to the “assets” of the world.

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  244. @215

    whembly, the point is that a violent mob has breached the security of the US capital and stopped the counting of electoral votes and you want to change the subject to a different event where you think people you don’t like behaved badly.

    meanwhile, the rest of us are watching hoping this genie can be put back in the bottle.

    aphrael (4c4719) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:29 pm

    I’m trying very hard NOT to change the subject.

    I’ve repeated myself, over and over, that what happened today is unacceptable.

    whembly (c30c83)

  245. “It’s disgusting.”

    I saw the Fleischer tweet on FNC and thought I misread it….astonishing…it’ll be hard to walk that one back

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  246. @248-
    It’s Murdock.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  247. @240. This looks close enough to me:

    Lest you forget, Davey, YOU like to play with matches, don’t you.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  248. @#250-

    Pick any post here .

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  249. 77. Dana (cc9481) — 1/6/2021 @ 1:01 pm

    Sammy, while Putin, Iran, and China are likely amused by the spectacle, can you just let Trump own his own destructive behavior. Today didn’t just happen in a vacuum.

    Oh, yes.

    . He is the author of this horrific chapter in our nation’s history. Signed, sealed, and delivered. Stop making excuses for him, or trying to relieve him of his responsibility.

    I just don’t think he’s the chief conspirator here.

    He thought X was going to happen, but Y did. It is important to find out who is the real “genius” here.

    Things are such that maybe an approach would be for a Republican to file a resolution of impeachment for interrupt an important session of Congress – just that and nothing more. And if he denies it, and says that was not his intention, fine.

    Then he needs to be asked what did he think was going to happen when he asked the demonstrators to go to the Capitol, and who advised him to do so.

    Then get that person under oath.

    And track it down to whoever equipped demonstrators with tear gas to use on the police and did a couple of other things.

    And don’t stop there even. It is important to know who planned it and who arranged for all that.

    We can’t just blame Trump and leave it at that. There is somebody active in America politics involved here whom we don’t know.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  250. ‘Balls, said the queen; if I had’em I’d be the king’

    YOU PLAGIARIZED THAT YOU DIRTY PLAGIARIZING PLAGIARIST WHO PLAGIARIZES

    Dave (1bb933)

  251. 18 U.S. Code § 2384 – Seditious conspiracy

    If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  252. Members of Congress are still sheltering in place. They are not so much afraid but following security guidelines and the guidelines are what they are because they don’t want to kill anyone. It could come down to that if there was something more, or if unknown people got too close.

    Mike Pence is still on the Capitol grounds, apparently mainly because it is not considered safe for (or maybe anybody else) to leave.

    There is a 6 pm curfew scheduled.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  253. @247. The supposed ‘shooting’ remain under investigation- no definitive reports; but depends on where you went to college, doesn’t it. This is a one-day-blow off of steam decades in the making. Revisit Pat Buchanan circa 1996. Populism is on the march– and it is the fault and failure of idelogues on all sides. This ain’t 1968– and seems magnified to the young mainly due to the plethora of media platforms and outlets today. Too bad this media environment wasn’t around in 1966- fewer names on The Wall and the Vietnam War would have ended much, much sooner.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  254. Impeach and Remove
    ……
    This need not be a lengthy process. The evidence of the president’s actions are clear and available to all. The House does not need an elaborate inquiry. The Senate does not need a lengthy trial. House and Senate members need only determine whether they believe that the president’s words and actions rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors and whether Donald Trump can be safely left to exercise the powers of the presidency until the scheduled inauguration of his elected successor. That does not seem like a difficult question, and the members of Congress should go on record with an answer to it.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  255. The Vietnam War went on the way it did because LBJ was temporizing.

    We have learned since to fight limited wars, with far, far far fewer casualties,

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  256. @257. Yes; where have you been, Davey, it’s very much ‘in’ now: “Ask not what your Biden can do for you; ask what you can do for his Hunter.” 🙂

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  257. W: “Banana Republic”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  258. If they reconvene tonight, I expect someone in the House to move to impeach.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  259. “We can’t just blame Trump and leave it at that. There is somebody active in America politics involved here whom we don’t know”

    Perhaps….but it’s clear too that Trump knew this was going to be wild…or maybe hoped it would be wild. Either way, the optics and his delay in getting in front of it….and his inability to unambiguously call out the behavior….puts him on a clear side…the wrong side.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  260. Except it’s not. It’s a Congressional panty raid.

    But is it a coup “coup”?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  261. Woman shot in Capitol has died
    ….
    Video posted on social media showed a crowd inside the Capitol, a gunshot is heard and then the woman, wearing a Trump banner around her neck, is lowered to the ground. She could later be seen being loaded into an ambulance with blood around her upper body.
    ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  262. Breaking-

    Donald J. Trump
    @realDonaldTrump
    ·
    11m
    These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!

    This claim of election fraud is disputed, and this Tweet can’t be replied to, Retweeted, or liked due to a risk of violence

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  263. Kevin M – it’s out of order during the joint session and has to wait until the joint session is over, but Rep. Omar is certain to introduce the motion.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  264. Patterico @110:

    Well what he did was to accuse you of not using the same strong language on the rioters as on the people today. But the term `Banana Republic’ didn’t apply to Seattle/Chicago/Portland/Minneapolis. They didn’t deserve that term.

    Not to mention that the term Banana Republican hadn’t yet been coined.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  265. @268. Funny nobody is asking how, with billions of dollars spent on government security, a bunch of ‘folks’ [that’s the new word for citizens now] managed to breach the Capitol, get into both chambers and the office of the Speaker. Hell, I can’t even walk into a Walgreen’s without being stopped, counted and made sure to be wearing a $1 mask.

    ____

    Well. Supposedly a woman has died. Kent State, 1970 redux?! Isn’t there a law- no guns in Washington, D.C.?!? So much for national security.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  266. Kevin M – it’s out of order during the joint session and has to wait until the joint session is over, but Rep. Omar is certain to introduce the motion.

    I would rather have a Republican make the motion.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  267. a bunch of ‘folks’ [that’s the new word for citizens now] managed to breach the Capitol

    CNN is calling the people at the Capitol “traitors” and such.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  268. 265.If they reconvene tonight, I expect someone in the House to move to impeach.

    Seriously, would they have time to do that?!?! Surely at he minimum a censure could be passed in a few hours.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  269. Kevin M – in an ideal world McCarthy would be making the motion. Or he and Pelosi would jointly introduce it.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  270. @268. When there’s a Super Bowl or NBA win don’t we see wackos do more distruction or property?

    That glass in the Capitol windows broke awfully easily, too. Lowest bidder; cheapest glass?!?!.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  271. DCSCA – impeachment is a priviliged resolution and can be forced to the floor without going to committee first. The House could pass it tonight if they wanted to.

    Whether or not they want to, I don’t think anyone knows. I suspect everyone was radicalized by having the House stormed by armed protesters who were being egged on by the President.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  272. Congressional Candy Drawer – I actually know someone in the crowd. He’s an ex of one of my closest friends, and he’s gone off the conspiracy theory deep end in recent years. I hope he’s ok, but if he set foot in the Capital (as opposed to protesting outside it) I hope he spends the next decade in jail.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  273. Last night I worte that the only person missing form Trumps stop the steal team was John McAfee and his pitcher of ayahuasca margaritas.
    I seem to have conjured up at least the ayahuasca

    steveg (43b7a5)

  274. @277. Yes, they ran the list of adjectives- everything from thugs to terrorists– that would make an Iranian blush. Frankly, they’re disappointing as reporters go. Anderson Cooper never had any problems stripping down to a wet t-shirt and stand in the middle of a cat-5 hurricane w/a hot mike–but heaven forbid any of them brave the streets of Washington.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  275. One woman was shot dead today.

    Capitol police were barricading the House chamber with their guns drawn.

    Congressional leaders have now been told that the Capitol is secure.

    The crows had diminished.

    A CBS reporter says DC police are used to this – every day there’s always somebody yelling at a building- and they know how to handle rowds.

    On TV continuing special reports rather than the evening news..

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  276. @282. What about a straight, clean censure? It’s surprising he has never had one tagged to him; he’s certainly earned a few.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  277. Actually, that’s been passe since the combined Pistons-Bulls reign of 1989 to 1993; even the Kobe-era Laker celebrations were tame. In football, it helped that that NE Patriots and several other smaller less thuggy/meathead markets won SBs (of course Philly Iggles in ’18 was a notable outlier).

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  278. @286. And how may billions of dollars has been spent since 9/11 to prevent such an event? Seems as if a group of Iranians could have stormed the Capitol as easily as the Redcoat did in 1812.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  279. @288. Yeah, Philly came to mind.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  280. Congressional leaders have now been told that the Capitol is secure.

    Anyone doubt that there will be a blanket pardon for the fascist mob?

    Dave (1bb933)

  281. Seriously, would they have time to do that?!?! Surely at he minimum a censure could be passed in a few hours.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2021 @ 3:19 pm

    Only one way to find out. If they are smart they keep it simple. I wish they would remove Cruz and pals first. They shouldn’t get a vote on this matter (or any matter ever again).

    Dustin (4237e0)

  282. Congressional leaders have now been told that the Capitol is secure.

    Why would they believe that after today? Haven’t they been told that since 9/11?

    Can you even trust them on the vaccine?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  283. The Rioters Who Took Over The Capitol Have Been Planning Online In The Open For Weeks
    The supporters of President Donald Trump who rioted in the US Capitol building on Wednesday had been openly planning for weeks on both mainstream social media and the pro-Trump internet. On forums like TheDonald, a niche website formed after Reddit banned the subreddit of the same name, they promised violence against lawmakers, police, and journalists if Congress did not reject the results of the 2020 election.

    In one interaction four days ago, a person on TheDonald asked, “What if Congress ignores the evidence?”

    “Storm the Capitol,” one replied, which received more than 500 upvotes.

    “You’re f@@king right we do,” another said.

    On pro-Trump social media website Parler, chat app Telegram, and other corners of the the far-right internet, people discussed the Capitol Hill rally at which Trump spoke as the catalyst for a violent insurrection. They have been using those forums to plan an uprising in plain sight, one that they executed Wednesday afternoon, forcing Congress to flee its chambers as it met to certify the results of the election.
    ……
    Law enforcement, however, appeared unprepared for the scale of the violence on Wednesday. Capitol police were quickly overwhelmed, dramatically outnumbered by Trump supporters. While thousands of National Guard troops were posted throughout Washington, DC, during Black Lives Matter protests, the DC National Guard was not deployed Wednesday until well after the Capitol’s perimeters had been breached.
    …..
    According to Advance Democracy, a nonprofit research organization, all corners of the social web were signaling imminent violence in the days leading up to the riot.

    “On TheDonald, more than 50% of the top posts on January 4, 2021, about the January 6th Electoral College certification featured unmoderated calls for violence in the top five responses,” the organization found.
    ……
    “No wonder the President said January 6 in DC was going to be wild.@LLinWood just told us many of our politicians are raping and killing children. They won’t be able to walk down the street,” a post said.

    Calls for violence could even be heard the night before the protests. “Tomorrow — I don’t even like to say it because I’ll be arrested — I’ll say it. Tomorrow, we need to go into the Capitol,” one man said on a livestream by white supremacist Baked Alaska, a far-right internet troll whose real name is Tim Gionet and who once briefly worked for BuzzFeed. The next day, Gionet was sitting in a Senate office, having stormed the building as part of the mob.
    ……

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  284. Seems as if a group of Iranians could have stormed the Capitol as easily as the Redcoat did in 1812.

    No, they would have been profiled long before.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  285. @24. It is surprising he has never been censured, Dustin. Certaily plenty of fodder for same. I’d have nailed one to his tail after Helsinki -for which I will never forgive him nor forget.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  286. ^294.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  287. CCD, if you need mental health assistance or help getting a job, let me know. Poor guy.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  288. 297…they could pretend to be “Armos”, Latinos for Trump, or Rudy G’s still-Sicilian looking nephews.

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  289. When Senator Schumer was asked what is next, he said: 8 PM. So they’re guessing that maybe he means that;s when Congress will reconvene.

    All 1100 members of the DC National Gard have been activated. This was done in consultation with the Congressional leadership and Vice President Mike Pence. Trump is apparently AWOL. Joe Biden addressed the nation. (He was scheduled to speak about something else)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaTFqDNtuuc

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/joe-biden-remarks-condemning-capitol-protest-transcript

    “This is not dissent. It’s disorder. It’s chaos. It borders on sedition, and it must end now. I call this mob to pull back and allow the work of democracy to go forward.

    a
    The warmup speakers at the Trump rally earlier in Washington are said to be have been worse than Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  290. 296. Obtaining tear gas wasn’t planned online.

    And again I repeat, I don’t think the FBI infiltrated them.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  291. Dubya’s full statement:

    Laura and I are watching the scenes of mayhem unfolding at the seat of our Nation’s government in disbelief and dismay. It is a sickening and heartbreaking sight. This is how election results are disputed in a banana republic – not our democratic republic. I am appalled by the reckless behavior of some political leaders since the election and by the lack of respect shown today for our institutions, our traditions, and our law enforcement. The violent assault on the Capitol – and disruption of a Constitutionally-mandated meeting of Congress – was undertaken by people whose passions have been inflamed by falsehoods and false hopes. Insurrection could do grave damage to our Nation and reputation. In the United States of America, it is the fundamental responsibility of every patriotic citizen to support the rule of law. To those who are disappointed in the results of the election: Our country is more important than the politics of the moment. Let the officials elected by the people fulfill their duties and represent our voices in peace and safety. May God continue to bless the United States of America.

    Amen.

    Dave (1bb933)

  292. This is how stupid things are getting: Dana Loesch and her husband Chris Loesch have both come out against the storming of the Capitol Building on Twitter, only to have hundreds of Trumpists deride them as being weak and even calling them RINOs. As we have been pointing out now for over four years, it’s a cult.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  293. Now a real Roger-Stone-type-entrepreneur would gather up pieces of broken Capitol window glass and unload limited edition fragments on Ebay from today’s “Trump Rage For Freedom” to raise funds for the Trump 2024 run. 😉

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  294. @305. It’s populism.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  295. I’m taking the liberty to quote in full Mitt Romney’s statement of condemnation:

    “We gather today due to a selfish man’s injured pride and the outrage of his supporters whom he has deliberately misinformed for the past two months and stirred to action this very morning. What happened here today was an insurrection, incited by the President of the United States. Those who choose to continue to support his dangerous gambit by objecting to the results of a legitimate, democratic election will forever be seen as being complicit in an unprecedented attack against our democracy. They will be remembered for their role in this shameful episode in American history. That will be their legacy.

    “The objectors have claimed they are doing so on behalf of the voters. Have an audit, they say, to satisfy the many people who believe that the election was stolen. Please! No Congressional led audit will ever convince those voters, particularly when the President will continue to claim that the election was stolen. The best way we can show respect for the voters who are upset is by telling them the truth. That is the burden, and the duty, of leadership. The truth is that President-elect Biden won this election. President Trump lost. Scores of courts, the President’s own Attorney General, and state election officials both Republican and Democrat have reached this unequivocal decision.

    “We must not be intimidated or prevented from fulfilling our constitutional duty. We must continue with the count of electoral college votes. In light of today’s sad circumstances, I ask my colleagues: Do we weigh our own political fortunes more heavily than we weigh the strength of our Republic, the strength of our democracy, and the cause of freedom? What is the weight of personal acclaim compared to the weight of conscience?

    “Leader McConnell said that the vote today is the most important in his 40 plus years of public service. That is not because this vote reveals something about the election; it is because this vote reveals something about ourselves. I urge my colleagues to move forward with completing the electoral count, to refrain from further objections, and to unanimously affirm the legitimacy of the presidential election.”

    What an excellent statement. How tragic that it was necessary to make.

    Dana (cc9481)

  296. It’s populism.

    Uh huh.

    Anyone who defends this here, ban them.

    Dave (1bb933)

  297. 295. Secure from the dangers of today. Of course you can’t accept that purely on faith, but the odds favor it that they are mostly right.

    Can you even trust them on the vaccine?

    No you can’t trust them on rhe vaccine. What can;t you trust them on?

    You can’t trust them mainly on claims that the vaccine was no good until approved – or that half doses of the Moderna vaccine are no good, or that it is unsafe for children, or that it is important to get a second dose precisely after 3 or 4 weeks, or that it spoils as quickly or as easily as they claim, or that it has no side effects or that the protocol of who get it first is worth following or that we need to wait months for the Astra Zenica vaccine being used in Great Britain…

    wait the exact amoun

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  298. You should have chosen a different new alias after you last one was banned.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  299. How tragic that it was necessary to make.

    How tragic that there’s only a single elected Republican in Washington with enough decency to make it.

    Dave (1bb933)

  300. FWIW, Tea from the Boston Tea Party Ships & Museum: Actual tea box from the Boston Tea Party on display. $$$$$ Grab that glass!

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  301. Mitt Romney’s public statements have always been made to his and his financier’s advantage. He is a traitor, and the intonations of duty, honor, and conscience ring hollow from his lips.

    Please explain in detail, your specific reasons to make such a statement. That it is a lie is unquestionable, why you would specifically lie like this is the question.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  302. Read the caption of the photo on this item.

    LOL!

    Dave (1bb933)

  303. @310. You do realize that has been growing within the GOP since the days of Pat Buchanan. There’s hard data on it and the problem has been the zealous ideologues have either ignored it or failed to address their concerns. It’s only going to get worse–the last cycle tallies show it and the race is on by fellas like Cruz to harness their support and ride to victory carrying their banner in 2024.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  304. You need help, CCD. I sincerely am sorry, as I have great insight into people like you. Your insecurity about jobs doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to work out. It’s been a rough year, probably even worse for you. Isolation, disinfo online, shame. It’s tough man. You deserve a lot better, but only you can give it to yourself. Being a troll here might be fun, but that VPN money could go towards a new shirt and a tie. Get out there and fix yourself. I’ll help you if you need it, but I realize you can’t interpret kindness properly. You’ll keep drinking that poison, hoping your country dies.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  305. Yes, well, I’m here to speak truths unpopular among those present, not engage in ideological e-friendships to replace the ones I don’t have in life.

    No, you’re the Troll that has to change their alias and login with a new VPN connection before every post specifically because you are a liar, and like a typical trumpian liar, they are juvenile, childish, and shows no great cleverness. As you are like your idol, Donald J. Trump. Loser.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  306. Patterico, Dana, and JVW: We can’t expel Cruz, Hawley, and Gohmert, but could you possibly do something about the VPN troll going by Congressional Candy Drawer; and I think DCSCA could use a day’s rest too.

    nk (1d9030)

  307. So have a lot of incels stopped raising their fist (repeatedly, then stopping) “with” Mrs. Loesch?

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  308. The fact that I have bashed Mitt Romney and supported Ted Cruz is plenty of reason to drink.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  309. Yes, well, the hamstringing of a President’s foreign policy via fancifully contrived RUSSIA!!! investigations, the pardoning and financing of career criminals in riots across the US, and the utterly insane economic warfare against Main Street in the name of Covid are also ‘coups’ of a far more serious sort in the ledger against you

    You are strictly imagining things I had any part in doing — perhaps because you can’t explain why you think it’s okay for people you agree with it to storm the Capitol and try to overturn an election by force, and why it’s fine for the “law and order” president to encourage them.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  310. Patterico, Dana, and JVW: We can’t expel Cruz, Hawley, and Gohmert, but could you possibly do something about the VPN troll going by Congressional Candy Drawer; and I think DCSCA could use a day’s rest too.

    nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2021 @ 4:14 pm

    Working on it.

    Dana (cc9481)

  311. I was no great fan of Mitt, or Mccain, on policy grounds, but I always thought that they were good men and I could trust my vote to a good man that we can then have a conversation about our differences. Trump has made it clear, that policy means nothing, trustworthiness and honor mean everything. That is going to have to be the driving factor, for me, voting for any top of the ticket person. Can I trust them, are they honorable. Trump was neither, didn’t get my vote, but it has still ended far worse than I thought.

    Not just this display today, the 20k dead Americans this week on top of the other 350k of Covid, with an actively harmful response, the Russia stuff, the Ukraine…It was so much worse than the train wreck I was expecting Jan.20th 2016.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  312. @323. Save your efforts- I’ve got dinner to make. Show’s over for today.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  313. b-bye👋

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  314. Breaking: Trump’s Twitter account is locked for 12 hours and will be permanently shut down if he keeps tweeting baseless election conspiracies and inciting violence.

    Dave (1bb933)

  315. @330. Just keep in mind, Dana, a person who posted for me to ‘die in a fire’ remains.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  316. Trump’s Twitter account is locked for 12 hours

    Trumpers, of course, see that as more reason to escalate their war on the Establishment. Everything is a conspiracy against Trump.

    Radegunda (b6cc34)

  317. CNN
    Twitter said Wednesday it has locked President Trump’s account for 12 hours, and warned for the first time that it may suspend him permanently.

    The temporary lock reflects Trump’s violation of the Twitter rules, the company said.

    “We have required the removal of three @realDonaldTrump Tweets that were posted earlier today for repeated and severe violations of our Civic Integrity Policy,” Twitter said. “This means that the account of @realDonaldTrump will be locked for 12 hours following the removal of these Tweets. If the Tweets are not removed, the account will remain locked.”

    Twitter added that “future violations… will result in permanent suspension of the @realDonaldTrump account.”
    …..

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  318. I was not a fan of the idea of impeaching Donald for his petulant hissy fit, he would’ve been gone soon enough. After today? Impeach him.

    Nic (896fdf)

  319. They reconvene in 20 minutes. Gosar got a standing ovation from his fellow schnitzel-slurpers when he presented the objection to Arizona’s slate. Let’s see what face they will have to show now.

    nk (1d9030)

  320. impeach him and then prosecute him for treason.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  321. You would have thought it would take for Trump to leave the presidency for this to happen.

    But Twitter has placed a 12-hour suspension on Trump’s account and is demanding he delete three tweets or else his account will remain locked.

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/01/twitter-appends-violence-warning-to-trump-tweets-as-mob-storms-capitol

    As a result of the unprecedented and ongoing violent situation in Washington, DC, we have required the removal of three @realDonaldTrump Tweets that were posted
    earlier today for repated [sic] and severe violations of our Civic Integrity policy,” the company said.

    Twitter also said:

    “Future violations of the Twitter Rules, including our Civic Integrity or Violent Threats policies, will result in permanent suspension of the @realDonaldTrump account. Our public interest policy—which has guided our enforcement action in this area for years—ends where we believe the risk of harm is higher and/or more severe.”

    “This means that the account of @realDonaldTrump will be locked for 12 hours following the removal of these Tweets. If the Tweets are not removed, the account will remain locked.”

    I think they are taking a mistake in attributing this to Trump’s tweets, especially anything that merely claims the election was stolen from him.

    His tweets are almost a distraction. They didn’t “cause” the violence. There was significant organization behind this. At most Trump recruited a few more foot soldiers. This was not spontaneous!

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  322. Sarah Palin is on Fox, blaming Fake News and Antifa.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  323. I bet Trump threw his phone when he saw he was locked out of his precious twitter, but because Trump is a wimp, I bet the phone is fine. I bet he’s also thrown at least one bowl of ice cream today. He is watching TV and realizing he will forever be known as garbage.

    there is no point to the legislature if it tolerates what Trump is doing. They need to impeach him.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  324. Twitter just locked out Trump. I generally don’t agree with such a practice, but I do here. This is beyond the pale. Enough.

    Paul Montagu (9a1440)

  325. It was so much worse than the train wreck I was expecting Jan.20th 2016.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/6/2021 @ 4:23 pm

    Same here. I have always had a big problem with a slimeball like Trump. He is just so pathetic and insecure. But I had no idea he would be this bad. He has proven his harshest critics were far too kind. He is indeed capable of the very worst. Removing him from power is very important. It’s not a gesture. It isn’t about norms. It’s about getting this guy out of the incredible amount of access and power he must no longer have.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  326. Pelosi’s Desk Jockey — good people can disagree on policy without becomind bad people. that’s an essential concept.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  327. Well, not anonymous online trolls, but that’s what happens when mommy allows unsupervised internet access to 13 year olds. It’s the internet–Baby.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  328. This is kind of disappointing. I wonder if he was really worried about the sanctity of the vote…you know, that it wasn’t just white men…better times and all that.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  329. He forgot the Weather Underground bombings.

    He also forgot this incident.

    1954 United States Capitol shooting

    This also set a precedent for a pardon, given by President Carter, although 25 years later.

    JoeH (f94276)

  330. That’s right Aphrael. I disagree with Aphrael, and frankly with a lot of folks here. I’ve always regretted when I’ve tried to push buttons, and I’ve always appreciated when I’ve enjoyed a respectful discussion.

    Trump’s mistakes have harmed the core of our nation. His previous mistakes have probably taken hundreds of thousands of lives. Everything is about button pushing with him. It is much easier to troll and destroy than to listen and build. It feels more powerful, but that is actually weakness.

    I don’t think Trump can stay in power at this point. It is just too dangerous.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  331. aphrael (4c4719) — 1/6/2021 @ 4:42 pm

    impeach him and then prosecute him for treason.

    Treason is defined in the constitution.

    It consists only in levying war on the United States or in adhering to their enemies. It requires at least two witnesses to testify to one overt act, or a confession in open court. Article III Secion 3.

    The fact that Trump is, it is fair to say, a scoundrel, is no reason not to be fair..

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  332. 346. His tweets didn’t cause the violence. It didn’t even assemble the crowd. It required more and was not essential.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  333. Essential maybe was for him to provide the casus belli.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  334. Invading the Capitol by force is waging war against the United States, Sammy, and there were more than two witnesses, or do you think that Jefferson Davis was not guilty of treason because he was in Richmond when Confederate troops fired on Fort Sumter?

    nk (1d9030)

  335. WRT to th ge 25th amendment, appeal to Pence’s vanity…after all, let’s make sure that BIDEN 46 tshirts, much like Buffalo Bill SB and (until this year) LA Dodger WS Champion shirts, become the sole province of impoverished African villages.

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  336. BTW, lest you forget:

    1968 Washington, D.C., riots – Wikipedia

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Washington,_D.C._riots

    The Washington, D.C., riots of 1968 were a four-day period of violent civil unrest and rioting following the assassination of leading African American civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr., on April 4, 1968. Part of the broader King-assassination riots that affected at least 110 U.S. cities, those in Washington, D.C.—along with those in Chicago and Baltimore—were among those with the greatest numbers of participants.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  337. Senate reconvenes. Mike Pence reading a statement.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  338. do you think that Jefferson Davis was not guilty of treason because he was in Richmond when Confederate troops fired on Fort Sumter?

    Akshually, he was in Montgomery because Virginia turned traitor after Fort Sumter.

    Dave (1bb933)

  339. There’s a lot of talk about why Trump was awol for a while today, and why Pence was the guy who ordered in the National Guard. I don’t think it means that much, but it makes you wonder what’s going on behind the scenes. I am sure the books about today will be interesting.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  340. “Invading the Capitol by force is waging war against the United States”

    loooool. Andrew Jackson’s inaugural made this look like a tea party, and not the boston type.

    Pelosi's Desk Jockey (969abc)

  341. Senate back in session. House probably is, too, but i can only watch one at a time.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  342. The 14th amendment calls what Jefferson Davis did insurrection or rebellion, although maybe you could include treason.

    Abraham Lincoln just wanted him to escape. Later, he was blamed by some for the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, captured imprisoned for two years, released on bail and finally pardoned by President Andrew Johnson on Christmas Day 1868 in which he was included. Andrew Johnson gave a presidential “pardon and amnesty” for the offense of treason to “every person who directly or indirectly participated in the late insurrection or rebellion”

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  343. loooool. Andrew Jackson’s inaugural made this look like a tea party, and not the boston type.

    Chicken dropping, climb back up that chicken’s butt. And Pelosi is easy to type in a blocking script.

    nk (1d9030)

  344. This reminds me of the episode of Mad Men, when Harry the TV/media guy had a cow over the coverage of MLK’s assassination and riots thereafter.

    https://news.yahoo.com/advertisers-pull-commercials-around-news-002525823.html

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  345. Speaking of chicken droppings, Lankford of Oklahoma resumed where he was interrupted by the traitors, and seems to have recanted his own treason. This might go fast after all.

    nk (1d9030)

  346. NBC News has coverage, After Lankford (who was interrupted earlier) spoke, they were trying to figure out of what he said meant there will be no further objections by any Senator to any other state’s electoral votes.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  347. This might go fast after all.

    Not if the seditionists go ahead and challenge all six states. It will still be going on throughout the night and into tomorrow.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  348. Lankford was recently reelected to the full 6, besides he may as well be a North Shore/Inner DuPage squish by Oklahoma standards. I’ll take it…but only color me impressed if, say, Ron Johnson, up for reelection in ’22 recants.

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  349. Some Republicans now say they will vote to certify Biden’s electoral college win after rioters storm Capitol
    Some Republican senators who had previously supported the electoral college protest decided to drop their objections after the siege of the Capitol.
    ……
    Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), a close ally of the president, also told reporters that “in light of events, there’s a bit of a different attitude” about continuing the objection to the election results.

    Sen. Steve Daines (R-Mont.) released a statement that said he would vote to certify Biden’s electoral votes, a reversal after joining others who said they would reject electors from certain states won by the president-elect.
    ……
    Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-Wash.) on Wednesday afternoon said she would no longer object to President-elect Joe Biden’s electoral college victory.

    “What happened today and continues to unfold in the nation’s capital is disgraceful and un-American,” she said in a statement.

    “We must have a peaceful transfer of power,” she said, adding: “What we have seen today is unlawful and unacceptable. I have decided I will vote to uphold the Electoral College results.”

    She also urged the president to “condemn and put an end to this madness.”
    …….
    …..“condemn and put an end to this madness.”

    Fat chance.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  350. Trump loyalists to continue challenge to Biden’s win despite pleas from GOP

    The Republicans who started Wednesday’s protest of the President-elect Joe Biden’s win plan to resume their objections when Congress returns to the Capitol this evening, despite the intervening siege of the building that resulted in one woman’s death.

    But the objectors may not launch any additional challenges past the one pending against Arizona’s slate of electors since lawmakers had to evacuate the building, according to aides and lawmakers familiar with their plans.

    How the objections unfold may come down to Sen. Josh Hawley (R Sedition-Mo.), who was the first senator to announce he would protest the electoral college vote last month, and has yet to agree not to raise a complaint about the outcome in Pennsylvania, according to two Republican officials familiar with internal party negotiations.
    ……
    ……Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) told reporters he believed objectors would “condense” their remaining objections into a single complaint, extending the debate by another 30 or 40 minutes only, before relenting.

    “I don’t think there’s going to be another objection,” Paul said. “I think it’s over.”

    If Paul’s predictions are correct, it would be a marked surrender from Trump’s allies, who had promised to carry out an all-night, state-by-state marathon of objections to certifying the electoral votes of several swing states that Trump lost in November.

    But aides to Hawley and Sen. Ted Cruz (R Sedition-Tex.), who also spoke in defense of the objections Wednesday, would not answer queries about whether they planned to continue their objections.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  351. @370 I hope they learned something about reaping what you sow. But I doubt it.

    Nic (896fdf)

  352. The House is still getting itself ready and may resume at about 9 pm EST (there was more disruption there) and the irony is, says an NBC reporter, that the proceedings may actually end now at an earlier hour than had been originally anticipated! (paraphrase)

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  353. The WA Post: Trump caused the assault on the Capitol. He must be removed.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  354. Loeffler recants! She will not object! Gets applause!

    nk (1d9030)

  355. She willingly purchased a WNBA team. Or so will say the MAGAns.

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  356. Hahahahaha, Loeffler finally does something good. I’m sure out of spite for Trump’s half-assed borderline sabotage of her campaign.

    There is an awful lot of 25th amendment talk, so I wonder if all these Senators are afraid of working so hard to keep a guy in office who is about to declared nutso. Each of Trump’s grifter pals are wondering if they can turn on him and get a book deal, or if it’s worth it to be linked up to Trump some more.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  357. Earlier NBC’s Chuck Todd said that Trump had been regarded (by some Republicans) as a ticking time bomb, and they were hoping things would (go uneventfully) till January 20 but “they didn’t quite make it.”

    Michael Bechloss was asked about Schumer’s comparison to Pearl Harbor.

    He said there was 1814, when the British burned Washington, and there was Ft Sumter (in 1861) and there was 9/11 but never has there been anything that was incited by the president of the United States.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  358. She does look nicer in business attire than Dior trucker.

    nk (1d9030)

  359. She lost $300 in kohls cash returning all those checkered shirts and puffy jackets.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  360. Durbin, my Senator, has 100% command of his faculties, and his speech is an indictment of Trump. In detail. With more than a few jabs at Lyin’ Ted (“the Senator from Texas”).

    nk (1d9030)

  361. Marshall, schnitzel-slurper from Kansas, slurps, slurps, slurps.

    nk (1d9030)

  362. Melania made sure Donny endorsed and campaigned with the other dude (D. Collins).

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  363. Newsweek article that includes Mitch McConnell’s entire speech around 1 pm:

    https://www.newsweek.com/full-text-mitch-mcconnells-speech-before-most-important-vote-his-career-1559426?modtag=djemBestOfTheWeb

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  364. I’ll take Ben Sasse for president in 2024.
    I believe him, actually. Good Speech.

    Tom M (347d19)

  365. Scumbag Hawley mushmouths better than Lyin’ Ted. Expel the schnitzler-slurper!

    nk (1d9030)

  366. Josh Hawley (R-Sigma Chi) is just as duplicatus as before. He wants his word quota, he needs his word quota, because he wants his taste of that sweet sweet MAGA money.

    And he said “irregardless”, what a feckin’ loser.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  367. Romney has 25 grandchildren!

    nk (1d9030)

  368. Two rounds of applause, in the middle and in the end.

    nk (1d9030)

  369. For Romney I mean.

    nk (1d9030)

  370. Looks like Trump’s entire cabinet is considering resigning.

    Wow, how brave. These cowards could invoke the 25th/4 immediately, AND THEY SHOULD.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  371. if they resign rather than invoking the 25th, i bet we have the votes to impeach and convict tomorrow.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  372. Twitter just locked out Trump. I generally don’t agree with such a practice, but I do here. This is beyond the pale. Enough.

    Without Section 230, that would have happened long ago.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  373. It consists only in levying war on the United States or in adhering to their enemies. It requires at least two witnesses to testify to one overt act, or a confession in open court. Article III Secion 3.

    So, the President goes out to a rally and says that people should go down to the Congress and ,ake themselves heard. They do this and, in their enthusiasm, they enter the Congressional chambers, intentionally disrupting the process of presidential election.

    That, sir, is levying war.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  374. The key word that struck me in Mitt’s statement is “complicit”.
    The objectors in Congress were complicit in Trump’s Election Fraud Hoax, for objecting without any legitimate evidence. I don’t care if some of them struck their names after the rioting broke out, they’re all complicit and, IMO, have forfeited their qualifications for future office.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  375. The only thing I heard tonight that truly struck me as strange was Senator Schumer referring to today as a second December 7th. Not only was that a serious loss of perspective, but what happened to 9/11? You’d think the Senator from Wall Street would remember that.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  376. Facebook and the insta also have locked him out.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  377. I hope that T-Mobile locks him out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  378. In fact, I hope that Melania locks him out.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  379. And he said “irregardless”, what a feckin’ loser.
    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0) — 1/6/2021 @ 6:25 pm

    I know, right? I didn’t think my opinion of a mealy-mouthed, insurrectionist-high-fiving Trump humper like Hawley could sink any lower until he said “irregardless.”

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  380. Lindsey Graham’s speech is masterful, and no one call me a fan of the guy who sold his political soul to Trump.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  381. i’m finding his attempts at humor to be grating and tone deaf.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  382. In fact, I hope that Melania locks him out.

    I’m pretty sure Melania has locked him out since Barron was conceived.

    Hoi Polloi (139bf6)

  383. Lindsey Graham’s speech is masterful, and no one call me a fan of the guy who sold his political soul to Trump.

    That is the speaking style I (try to) use, too.

    nk (1d9030)

  384. Lindsay Graham is like Captain Renault. You know he’s without a single principle, but you still like the guy and can expect him to do the right thing from time to time.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  385. Anyone want to bet how long this guy stays out of jail?

    https://twitter.com/RepKarenBass/status/1346948080671875074

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  386. “I wonder if all these Senators are afraid of working so hard to keep a guy in office who is about to declared nutso.”

    He’s popular and acclaimed by people who can show up and fight, they aren’t. They should govern themselves accordingly if they don’t want to end up like the Roman Senate.

    Saturnalia (2cd33f)

  387. I believe the score was Senate 53, Julius Caesar 0.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  388. I was talking to the one who sounds fat, not Kevin.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  389. 45% of Republicans approve of the storming of the Capital.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  390. We’re not idiots, Dustin. We know who sounds fat and who doesn’t.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  391. i’m finding his attempts at humor to be grating and tone deaf.

    I can see that, aphrael, but I like the way he skewered Hawley. The word that comes to mind with him is duplicitous.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  392. “So, the President goes out to a rally and says that people should go down to the Congress and ,ake themselves heard. They do this and, in their enthusiasm, they enter the Congressional chambers, intentionally disrupting the process of presidential election.

    That, sir, is levying war.”

    Then perhaps Congress can make their declaration of war on the people official, since they’re obviously the most important people in America and all Americans dream of the chance to save them.

    Saturnalia (9b7cef)

  393. “I believe the score was Senate 53, Julius Caesar 0.”

    And Rome was then ruled by an enlightened Senate ever after.

    Saturnalia (6b94b4)

  394. I was talking to the one who sounds fat, not Kevin.

    I could stand to lose a few pounds, as you know.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  395. 45% of Republicans approve of the storming of the Capital.

    It’s the 21% of Independents that ought to worry you.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  396. Chicken dropping, get back in your chicken.

    nk (1d9030)

  397. Yes, the chicken dropping is very fat. It’s too bad Patterico does not allow doxxing.

    nk (1d9030)

  398. Well, you know where Mike Pence is right now.

    Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  399. @391-
    Looks like Trump’s entire cabinet is considering resigning.
    Do you have a source? So far the only one who has resigned is Melania’s chief of staff.

    Rip Murdock (8bf811)

  400. I lasted 2min watching Hannity and FNC….they were covering the inadequate preparation of the police protection of the Capitol. I mean I guess the police could have started shooting people to discourage the mob….but really? FNC needs a good flush….a couple of good ones are there…but in general they are a big part of the problem.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  401. Several people, mostly in social positions in the White House have resigned or are close to it.

    Considering resignation are the National Security Adviser, and Elaine Chao, who is the wife of Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell and the Secretary of Transportation.

    Senator Josh Hawley, because he said he would speak about Pennsylvania in the Arizona debate in lieu of later, sounded like he might not make that objection.

    What he actually is going to do is object, and then yield his time. So there will be at least another vote (although maybe they might cut the debate short)

    Republican Senators were most comfortable objecting to Pennsylvania. The chief objection there was that the Pennsylvania legislature had changed its election law in 2019, in violation of the state constitution, to make absentee ballots available on request instead of for a narrow set of reasons (New York has a similar rule, but Governor Andrew Cuomo said that the possibility of coming down with the coronavirus would be considered a “temporary disability.”)

    The senate s voting and the House is debating and the House will take a longer time than usual to vote because they will only be able to go onto the House floor is partial groups

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  402. Some House members are in the process of writing a letter to Mike Pence asking him to invoke the 25th amendment.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  403. Oh, why not?

    On the black gallows, one-armed friend,
    The paladins are dancing, dancing
    The lean, the devil’s paladins
    The skeletons of Saladins.

    Sir Beelzebub pulls by the scruff
    His little black puppets who grin at the sky,
    And with a backhander in the head like a kick,
    Makes them dance, dance, to an old Carol-tune!
    — Arthur Rimbaud, Dance of the Hanged Men

    nk (1d9030)

  404. There’s a photo of Josh Hawley, cheering on the pro-Trump crowd before they stormed the Capitol.
    Condemnable.
    I saw 6 ayes and 93 nays on the AZ objection, which means over the half the objecting Senators were cowards, and the other six (Cruz, Hawley, Hyde-Smith, Kennedy, Marshall, Tuberville) are even more fascist than I thought. May God damn their political careers.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  405. I could stand to lose a few pounds, as you know.

    That may be, but if asked to sum up Kevin M, I’d say:

    Often right, sometimes wrong, never in doubt, doesn’t sound fat.

    lurker (d8c5bc)

  406. What do you think they are doing in the White House right now? What could they be discussing? They must have anticipated that there was some probability that this could happen…..and potentially be viewed badly. I’ve always thought he had a self-destructive element to what he did….but even with the psychotic GOP approval poll numbers….I can’t see this helping his post Jan 20th image. Did he (and his team) just fundamentally misjudge the optics?

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  407. @423/
    All rumors. I’ll believe it when I see it.

    Rip Murdock (8bf811)

  408. If he wasn’t banned on all the socials, then Trump would just tell us. I’d guess that anyone not directly related to him or attached directly to his rump (Stephen Miller) are looking for the station to get off the Trump train.

    Then clean up their resume so that it says they were working at the Amazon shipping facility for the last 4 years.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  409. Some notes on the chaos:

    The woman who was killed was shot in a hallway. Probably, I would think, by a protester, and probably on purpose.

    Somehow nobody had the keys to lock the doors to the House floor and it was barricaded with furniture . It was not breached but it was put into some disarray and took time later to put in order. Some other places were occupied.

    About a dozen members were in the gallery, and had to stay there for some time, on the floor and with gas masks on till they were told it was safe to evacuate and one member has been saying she heard shots fired, presumably aimed at the House chamber.

    The area around the Capitol is almost empty now but there may or may not be thousands of protesters wandering the streets of Washington, D.C.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  410. Let me re-emphasize that point: YOU ARE NOT POPULAR. NORMAL PEOPLE DO NOT SHARE YOUR VIEWS.

    Right. That’s why your guy got 7 million fewer votes.

    Dave (1bb933)

  411. The most dangerous thing that Trump has said is not that he won the election, or that demonstrators should go t the Capitol, but that it was possible for him to still win.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  412. Giuliani to Senator: ‘Try to Just Slow it Down’

    Rudy Giuliani, a lawyer and top adviser to President Donald Trump, is calling Republican lawmakers urging them to delay the electoral vote count by at least one day to allow the president and his team to present more evidence of alleged election fraud. Giuliani was making calls this evening, as late as an hour before Congress reconvened, in a desperate attempt to block the final count of Electoral College votes.

    At approximately 7 p.m., Giuliani called newly sworn-in Alabama Sen. Tommy Tuberville, a staunch Trump ally, imploring him to stall the process. “I want to discuss with you how they’re trying to rush this hearing and how we need you, our Republican friends, to try to just slow it down so we can get these legislatures to get more information to you,” Giuliani said in a voicemail. “And I know they’re reconvening at 8 tonight, but it … the only strategy we can follow is to object to numerous states and raise issues so that we get ourselves into tomorrow—ideally until the end of tomorrow. I know McConnell is doing everything he can to rush it, which is kind of a kick in the head because it’s one thing to oppose us, it’s another thing not to give us a fair opportunity to contest it.”

    Giuliani tells Tuberville that McConnell wants to narrow the objections to just three states and explains that the Trump team wants to object to 10. “So if you could object to every state and, along with a congressman, get a hearing for every state, I know we would delay you a lot, but it would give us the opportunity to get the legislators who are very, very close to pulling their vote, particularly after what McConnell did today.”

    The problem for Giuliani? He left his message on the voicemail of another senator, who shared it with The Dispatch.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (8bf811)

  413. @432-
    I heard she was shot by law enforcement.

    Rip Murdock (8bf811)

  414. will come back and ensure the Capitol burns.

    And in it’s place with be what? Biker madness? Guess what! We have guns, too.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  415. Probably, I would think, by a protester, and probably on purpose.

    She was attacking either the police officer who shot her or the Congressman who witnessed it. “She had hate in her eyes”, is what I heard the witness say.

    nk (1d9030)

  416. nk (1d9030) — 1/6/2021 @ 8:06 pm

    I understand that there is video of the shooting. Who here has seen it?

    felipe (630e0b)

  417. “Right. That’s why your guy got 7 million fewer votes.”

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Where were the real people attached to those 7 million pieces of paper today? You think they’ll show up to protect Popular Pop Biden on the 20th?

    Saturnalia (8982b1)

  418. Standing over her was a capitol police officer with body armor and an assault rifle. A number of them were in the two chambers preventing entrance by the mob. My guess is she didn’t take the hint.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  419. Among the things that Lindsey Graham said was that (Trump was pushing) the proposition that one mane (Mike Pence) could nullify 155 million votes. He said 1877 was a terrible precedent and a commission would;t settle anything and in 1877 led to Jim Crow (Jim Crow actually was started a dozen years later)

    He said the Wisconsin court ruled 4-3 aganst Trump. He agreed with the 3 but had to uphold the 4 (or something like that)

    Among the most incendiary phrases at the Trump rally, it was claimed, were:

    Donald J. Trump Jr saying “we are coming for you” (in reference to Congress)

    And Rudy Giuliani saying there would be “trial by combat”

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  420. “And in it’s place with be what? Biker madness? Guess what! We have guns, too.”

    A smoking crater for you to do whatever unpopular people with guns do.

    Saturnalia (a9161c)

  421. “Donald J. Trump Jr saying “we are coming for you” (in reference to Congress)

    And Rudy Giuliani saying there would be “trial by combat””

    The fraud we have is at 19th century levels. And 19th century problems require 19th century solutions.

    Saturnalia (589d9c)

  422. I understand that there is video of the shooting. Who here has seen it?

    There is a video of the immediate aftermath, with the woman on the floor, bleeding out. Standing over her is a well-armed capitol policeman. The video was on Youtube earlier.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  423. I didn’t hear any details about the fatal shooting, but just that it was in a hallway that protesters had breached. No circumstances were given. I assumed that meant mystery. Mystery meant by an unknown person. Unknown person meant protester. Of course I should have realized news reports are often spottier than they should be.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  424. And 19th century problems require 19th century solutions.

    So, you are OK with hanging Trump.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  425. Thank you Rip. That’s the clearest image yet.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  426. The true “crime” committed today was showing how fearful, pathetic, and impotent Congress was in the face of the people they supposedly represent, finally getting to see what a 9-18% approval rate looks like in person and in practice. Henry Clay, Daniel Webster, and John C. Calhoun could have gone out and rabble-roused those crowds to their side blindfolded and half-drunk.

    Losing those common-sense human skills! Rules-lawyering is not a replacement!

    Honorable Roman Senator (db1ebd)

  427. I understand that there is video of the shooting. Who here has seen it?

    Yeah, but you can’t really tell from the phone/camera’s point of view.

    I’ve seen a couple angle’s and there are guys with long guns in the group, but I can’t tell if they are the police or militia guys, fat dudes with tacty gear and a Palmetto State AR. Either way if you’re a stressed capitol police person and you have these folks bashing in the windows and someone is standing in the middle of them with a rifle and you don’t recognize them…boom.

    Accidents happen, ad mobs and armed people together, tragedy is the result.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  428. Add both of those angles together, and from the perspective of the capitol cop inside the door, you’d just see someone pop up the stairs with a rifle.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  429. You know that everyone of those traitors who was with her is guilty of felony murder, right?

    nk (1d9030)

  430. There’s a couple rioter’s dressed in tacty gear with logos and everything, then the QRF pops up right next to him.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  431. My wife said the same thing, felony murder. She feels bad for the cop, me too, more so than for the dead lady, she volunteered to be at the front of the mob, risky.

    It’s a tragedy.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  432. I have deleted all of Steppe Nomad’s comments.

    Dana (cc9481)

  433. They’re not Trump supporters, they’re really Antifa!
    Wait, what? That QAnon guy was there? Never mind.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  434. Never mind, Dana. Thanks for your efforts to clean up. It’s got to be a hassle coming up with posts every day, then cleaning up the trashing of it. The exasperation of honest commentary, which on the right has become extremely rare, is definitely a goal of our troll and of the USA’s greatest enemies abroad.

    It must make those guys really mad that this blog is as good as it has ever been, though.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  435. Isn’t it crazy that there is a many who has been banned from using Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And that same man has access to 5,788 nuclear weapons.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  436. Counting has resumed.

    nk (1d9030)

  437. steveg (43b7a5) — 1/6/2021 @ 3:33 pm

    Steve left a link in a different thread that contain video of the shooting that begins about thirty seconds before the shot is fired. I see a group of rioters breaking the glass in the doors leading into a room. A large piece of glass falls and someone yells “he’s got a gun!” I think as a wrning to the rioters. One person raises his hands while some back away from the door. You can see a person, Ahsli, start to climb through the narrow opening of the right door and when she was perched on the window opening and about to jump in, you can the shot and she falls back out of the window and onto the floor out of the cameras view. I imagine that the shooter panicked and fired out of fear of life. It did not appear that she was within touching distance of the officer who was not visible in the video. He could have been any distance away or near.

    If the officer had been calm, he could have just pushed her back with one hand if he had been brave enough to stand nearer the to the door. But I was not there to experience the adrenaline that must have been pumping though everyone’s brains. Ashli’s action [climbing into the window] contributed to her being shot.

    felipe (630e0b)

  438. 4 dead after Capitol breached by pro-Trump mob during ‘failed insurrection’
    Four people are dead following Wednesday’s protests and the pro-Trump mob storming the Capitol, according to Washington, D.C. Metropolitan Police Department Chief Robert Contee.

    One woman and two men, suffered “medical emergencies” at the protests, and have subsequently died, Contee said during a press conference Wednesday night.

    Another woman was shot and killed during a standoff inside the U.S. Capitol between law enforcement and supporters of President Donald Trump, who breached the building, forcing a lockdown with members of Congress inside.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (8bf811)

  439. The protesters and rioters made their plans known. Montagu Jr. has attended a few protests in Seattle and you can BLM and Antifa because they all mask up. A good there today were maskless. Hopefully, the FBI will sort out the rioters quickly.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  440. Got it, Dustin. Anyone else?

    Dana (cc9481)

  441. Murdock,

    Since that one guy may be nodding off in the Barca lounger, I’ll say it:

    I guess history rhymed

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  442. If you’re an old with a heart condition, trying to storm the castl–Capitol is pretty stressful, you should bring your pills.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  443. Applause! Literally! A House schnitzel-slurper presented an objection to Georgia but all the Senators who had signed on to it have withdrawn. Count continues.

    nk (1d9030)

  444. Michigan, House objection, not signed by Senator. Applause.

    nk (1d9030)

  445. ddbedd as well Dana

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  446. Dana,

    ddbedd
    db1ebd

    Dustin (4237e0)

  447. Nevada, House objection, not signed by Senator. Applause. I sense a pattern.

    nk (1d9030)

  448. On closer inspection, it appears that there was a large amount of furniture [a barricade] piled against the door, so the officer could not have gotten close enough to push anyone back through the door window. But then I wonder where Ashli was going to jump, if there was furniture also blocking any landing? I thought she was trying to squeeze through the opening when she was shot, but perhaps she was realizing that there was no place to go once she got in the door opening, when she was shot.

    felipe (630e0b)

  449. @449. History rhymes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

    13 seconds, 67 shots, 4 dead.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/kent-state-massacre...

    As many as 100,000 students marched on Washington. Then, David Crosby, Stephen Stills, Graham Nash and Neil Young released their protest song “Ohio” a month later, with the chorus, “Four dead in Ohio.’

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  450. Protester Shot and Killed Inside U.S. Capitol Was From San Diego

    timesofsandiego.com/crime/2021/01/06/protester…

    The woman shot and killed as protesters stormed the U.S. Capitol Wednesday was identified by KUSI News as Ashli Babbitt of San Diego. The station reported Babbitt was a 14-year Air Force veteran.

    Fox reported a Capitol ‘law enforcement’ official was responsible- but confirmationawaits further investigation.

    Tragic. 🙁

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  451. One wonders what Martha McSally is thinking. Too close to home for her.

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  452. I guess not. Objection to Pennsylvania.

    nk (1d9030)

  453. it’s been really nice to hear silence from Trump since midafternoon.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  454. “THEY’RE BEING TOLD TO STAY AWAY FROM TRUMP”: AFTER A DAY OF VIOLENCE AND 25TH AMENDMENT CHATTER, TRUMP’S ALLIES ARE JUMPING SHIP
    As the violent mob incited by President Donald Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday, some West Wing staffers panicked that they were possibly becoming participants in a coup to overthrow the government. “What do I do? Resign?” one nervous White House staffer asked a friend on Wednesday afternoon, shortly after news broke that a woman had been shot and killed inside the Capitol. The West Wing staffer told the friend that White House Counsel Pat Cipollone was urging White House officials not to speak to Trump or enable his coup attempt in any way, so they could reduce the chance they could be prosecuted for treason under the Sedition Act. “They’re being told to stay away from Trump,” the friend said. The White House declined to comment.

    Cipollone’s purported concern that Trump was committing treason––a federal crime––illustrates the chaos and fear of Wednesday’s unprecedented events. At least one staffer isn’t waiting to flee the ship. On Wednesday night, CNN reported that Stephanie Grisham, the former White House communications director and Melania Trump’s current chief of staff, resigned over the Trump-inspired riot. As staff quit or steer clear, Trump is increasingly isolated and alone. According to a person close to the White House, Trump refused to take calls on Wednesday from business leaders who wanted him to call off the insurrectionists. A former West Wing staffer said Republicans were texting and calling Chief of Staff Mark Meadows to lobby him to intervene, but Meadows wasn’t answering.
    ………
    Tonight, there was a sense that the ground had shifted. Even Stephen Miller told one person close to the White House that it was a terrible day. ……
    ………
    The only thing wrong with this that is seditious conspiracy, not treason, is the crime the should be afraid of (see post 54). And when you lose Stephen Miller……

    Rip Murdock (8bf811)

  455. Belated R.I.P. to Barbara Shelley, queen of the Hammer studios horror films

    Icy (6abb50)

  456. And that same man has access to 5,788 nuclear weapons.

    I will bet my house that there is an additional protocol in place with respect to those weapons right now. They may even go so far as to say so publicly — the did with Nixon in the final days.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  457. I imagine that the shooter panicked and fired out of fear of life.

    Perhaps. You don’t know who or what he was guarding. He may have had orders than no one gets through that door.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  458. One wonders what Martha McSally is thinking. Too close to home for her.

    How so? Air Force? San Diego and Tuscon are fairly far apart.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  459. I imagine that the shooter panicked and fired out of fear of life.

    I would hate to believe that Capitol Police might be that skittish. Perhaps she was holding something that appeared at a glance to be a weapon, even though I think reports are that she was unarmed.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  460. How long before Ashli Babbitt brigade. Remember what happened after kent state Operation turn out the lights on the nixon administration and derail the vietnam war.

    asset (02ff70)

  461. The death of Ms. Babbitt is tragic, yet she was part of the group trying to violently and illegally break through the doors of a Congressional Constitutional proceeding. She was part of the group that attempted to disrupt our democratic process with violence.
    Ms. Babbit forfeited her First Amendment rights when she became a rioter and lawbreaker. She paid with her life because she was one of the thousands of fools out there yesterday who believed Trump’s lies about a stolen election. We’re lucky there weren’t more casualties, but the four who died yesterday is on Trump, just like the tens of thousands who died from CV19 because of his dishonesty and gross mismanagement.
    25th Amendment. The irony is that Trump is too deranged for Twitter and Facebook yet he holds our nuclear codes.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  462. @471. Regardless, there has to be some serious questions asked about how lax the security was and how easily and deeply into the Capitol complex those people penetrated. It’s not like the rally was a surprise. Millions of dollars spent around Washington to protct these sites and these ‘folks’ got in pretty easily. Hell, its harder to walk into a Walgreen’s; they count you and require a $1 mask just to let you in to buy some cough drops.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  463. @473. The ‘folks’ who videoed her shooting on site said she was just standing there. You weren’t, by chance, in the Ohio National Guard around 1970, were you?

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  464. @468. Likely so. Chances are the only order anybody will follow and fulfill for him now is for a Quarter Pounder w/cheese w/a side of McFries and a large Diet Coke.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  465. 414. What do you think they are doing in the White House right now?

    Packing.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  466. DCSCA (f4c5e5) — 1/6/2021 @ 11:43 pm

    Did the four at Kent State illegally storm the Capitol Building to disrupt democracy?

    Paul Montagu (0187cc)

  467. The dude [let’s call him Elmo Grizzle] pictured who made himself ‘at home’ in Nancy’s office let himself get interviewed in full for some CNN/NYT stringer and they aired some of it. He proudly gave them his name and address, too… ‘Elmo’ swiped some of Nancy’s mail off her desk as well and panned it for the TeeVee cameras— and left some nasty notes to her, too. Grizzle’s gonna clean up nice and look pretty in prison orange.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  468. Trump will pardon all the traitors.

    Dave (1bb933)

  469. @478. Did they park illegally or just let the meter run out before they opened fire? Keystone cops; nervous nellies. Or maybe she just wasn’t wearing a mask. Excessive force.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  470. The ‘folks’ who videoed her shooting on site said she was just standing there.

    The video is on the New York Post’s website. She wasn’t just “standing there”; she was attempting to climb through a broken window to a room that Capitol Police were apparently trying to barricade. The video is here; the woman is shot at the 44-second mark. Maybe instead of taking the word of “folks” you can look into the situation yourself.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  471. It’s quite true though that under the rules established this past summer the Trumpers should now have the unassailable right to riot every single night for two to three weeks in memory of their fallen comrade.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  472. It’s quite true though that under the rules established this past summer the Trumpers should now have the unassailable right to riot every single night for two to three weeks in memory of their fallen comrade.

    The rules of decorum for this site prohibit me from expressing my opinion of this comment.

    Dave (1bb933)

  473. @482. That’s a different angle from the ‘folks’ on Fox who were videoed/interviewed and provided aid. And actually she was climbing into a hallway. Excessive force. End of story.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  474. @482.

    https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/story/2021-01-06/a-woman-who-was-shot-inside-of-the-u-s-capitol-building-has-died

    In a 30-second video posted on Twitter, a gunshot rings out as Trump supporters swarm inside the Capitol building. The camera pans over to a woman with a Trump flag wrapped around her shoulders slumping to the ground.

    “A young woman was just shot in the neck right besides me in the Capitol Building,” tweeted an account with the display name Taylor Hansen, who posted the video. In a follow-up tweet, another video — also containing graphic violence and profanity — shows the woman with blood on her face and neck.

    “Help! You guys! Come on!” someone screams in the background.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  475. The rules of decorum for this site prohibit me from expressing my opinion of this comment.

    Wouldn’t you much rather write out a long disquisition on how the 14-year air force vet deserved her fate because she supported Donald Trump whereas Jacob Blake was a true innocent trapped in a racist system of justice, that burning down Kenosha in his name was a righteous response to historic grievances suffered by a marginalized community, and that the mayor and law enforcement agencies who stood by and let it happen were making a wise decision based upon a honest calculation of risk/reward, at least until the dead bodies started piling up? I’ll be sure to come back tomorrow and read it.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  476. I would hate to believe that Capitol Police might be that skittish.

    Well, one might wonder about the qualifications to become one:

    Chris Matthews [yes that ex-MSNBC Hardballer] served as a police officer at the United States Capitol Police in Washington, D.C.

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  477. Just be happy the Capitol Police still has somewhat of a good ole boy/bad kids from Remember the Titans contingent. Many before today were expecting to see NOPD or Detroit Lite.

    urbanleftbehind (280f48)

  478. So sad your darling Janet Reno wasn’t around to pull off another mass murder.

    mg (8cbc69)

  479. Where were you with your dogs, mg? Why weren’t you trying to overthrow the government with the other schnitzel-slurpers? You might have made all the difference. Won’t it nag your conscience for the rest of your life that “but for want of mg, the Glorious People’s Revolution of Epiphany was lost”?

    nk (1d9030)

  480. Busy raising my special needs granddaughter, nk. Taking her to P.T. 3 times a week and still working a 40 hour week. Gave up on thinking America matters. All about my sweet Adalynn. Hope your family is as protected as mine, nk.

    mg (8cbc69)

  481. Opinions
    President Trump has committed treason

    Trump fomented a deadly insurrection against the U.S. Congress to prevent a duly-elected president from taking office. Treason is not a word to be used lightly, but that is its textbook definition.

    “We will not take it anymore, and that’s what this is all about,” he told a sea of MAGA fans and Proud Boys on the Ellipse outside the White House at noon. From behind bulletproof glass, he told them: “If you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore.”

    Earlier, Trump ally Rudy Giuliani had proposed, to the same crowd, a “trial by combat” to resolve Trump’s election complaints. And Donald Trump Jr. delivered a political threat to lawmakers who don’t vote to reject the election results: “We’re coming for you.”

    The elder Trump worked the crowd into a frenzy with his claim that victory had been stolen from him by “explosions of bullsh[]t.”

    “Bullsh[]t! Bullsh[]t!” the mob chanted.

    Trump instructed his supporters to march to the Capitol — “and I’ll be there with you” — to “demand that Congress do the right thing” and not count the electoral votes of swing states he lost. “You’ll never take back our country with weakness, you have to show strength and you have to be strong,” he admonished them, with CYA instructions to make themselves heard “peacefully and patriotically.”

    Wink, wink.

    “We’re going to the Capitol,” he told the mob.

    With that, Trump snuck back into the safety of the White House fortress.

    nk (1d9030)

  482. But I like this better:

    Iraq issues arrest warrant for Trump over Soleimani killing


    Iraq’s judiciary says it has issued an arrest warrant for outgoing President Donald Trump in connection with the killing of an Iranian general and a powerful Iraqi militia leader last year
    No place in the world for Donald Trump after January 20.

    nk (1d9030)

  483. Trump fomented a deadly insurrection against the U.S. Congress to prevent a duly-elected president from taking office. Treason is not a word to be used lightly, but that is its textbook definition.

    One important point. I don’t think, to the extent he knew and understood and wanted this to happen, that he did this with words.

    Security was reduced.

    I don’t think Trump had an endgame – some other people did have an endgame in mind maybe, but it wasn’t the same endgame Trump had in mind. The way I see it, Trump was recruited into somebody else’s conspiracy.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  484. 8While the House chamber was not breached, the Senate chamber was, but it was put back in order sooner.

    Guns and other equipment were seized by force from the Capitol Hill police.

    Some known neo-Nazis or white supremacists were involved. They were recognized by a photographer.

    Congressman Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) was interviewed by Stephen Colbert. He gave his staff the day off because he read social media and he knew something could happen. On the House floor, he was reading Twitter and he left the chamber before it happened. Kinzinger was against the rejection of Electoral votes but had voted against impeachment (in what seems happened long long ago)

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  485. Jonathan Karl of ABC said he called up the White House and nobody is picking up the phone. He even called President Trump personally (he has a number) and he isn’t answering.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  486. It’s quite true though that under the rules established this past summer the Trumpers should now have the unassailable right to riot every single night for two to three weeks in memory of their fallen comrade.

    That is one of the sh-ttier rationalizations I’ve heard yesterday for the justification of violence and disruption, but Trump sniffers have exactly been making those excuses at websites owned by Salem. It’s kind of amazing to think that the role models for these seditionists are the Antifa/BLM types who committed violence and damaged property last summer. Principle!
    And those folks are guilty of seditious conspiracy.

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  487. 448. felipe (630e0b) — 1/6/2021 @ 8:46 pm

    If the officer had been calm, he could have just pushed her back with one hand if he had been brave enough to stand nearer the to the door.

    He probably had to bear in mind the possibility she was armed, or had a hand grenade etc. They would kind of expect that someone who breaches the Capitol, in the face of many armed men, would be better prepared to go further.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  488. https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/electoral-college-vote-count-biden-victory

    Congress reconvened nearly six hours later after leaving the floor, taking up where it had left off in hearing the objection from Senator Ted Cruz and Congressman Paul Gosar to Arizona’s electoral results. The Senate rejected the objection 93-6, and the House rejected it 303-121.

    Despite calls from more than a dozen senators who said they would support objections to electoral results in key states, no senators signed onto House members’ objections to the results in Michigan and Nevada.

    But Senator Josh Hawley followed through on his promise to object to Pennsylvania’s results. The Senate rejected it 92-7, leaving the House to debate it for two hours before it was rejected after 3 a.m.

    President Trump issued a statement early Thursday after Congress affirmed President-elect Joe Biden’s victory and it was announced by Vice President Mike Pence. Mr. Trump said that while he “totally disagrees with the outcome of the election, and the facts bear me out, nevertheless there will be an orderly transition on January 20th.” Mr. Trump also vowed to keep fighting to make America great again.

    The statement was tweeted by White House senior official Dan Scanvio, since Mr. Trump has been restricted from Twitter after his supporters stormed the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday.

    From another story:

    At 3:33 a.m., Mr. Biden received 270 electoral votes. At 3:39, the count was finished. Klobuchar read the results – Mr. Biden’s victory – to a standing ovation from both sides of the aisle.

    The final results are 306-232 for Biden. Vice President Mike Pence completed his duties and announced Mr. Biden as the winner just after 3:40 a.m.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  489. The death of Ms. Babbitt is tragic, yet she was part of the group trying to violently and illegally break through the doors of a Congressional Constitutional proceeding. She was part of the group that attempted to disrupt our democratic process with violence.
    Ms. Babbit forfeited her First Amendment rights when she became a rioter and lawbreaker. She paid with her life because she was one of the thousands of fools out there yesterday who believed Trump’s lies about a stolen election. We’re lucky there weren’t more casualties, but the four who died yesterday is on Trump, just like the tens of thousands who died from CV19 because of his dishonesty and gross mismanagement.
    25th Amendment. The irony is that Trump is too deranged for Twitter and Facebook yet he holds our nuclear codes.

    Paul Montagu (0187cc) — 1/6/2021 @ 11:38 pm

    I think the Police showed great restraint yesterday in their use of force. I’m sure we’ll learn more about why as time goes one.

    But i disagree with the part you wrote that I emphasized. She maintained all of her rights. But rioting and destroying property aren’t covered by the first amendment. It’s a slight difference.

    Time123 (89dfb2)

  490. 493.

    Trump instructed his supporters to march to the Capitol — “and I’ll be there with you” … “We’re going to the Capitol,” he told the mob.

    With that, Trump snuck back into the safety of the White House fortress.

    Trump probably meant that in the Biblical sense.

    https://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0146.htm

    ב וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים לְיִשְׂרָאֵל בְּמַרְאֹת הַלַּיְלָה, וַיֹּאמֶר יַעֲקֹב יַעֲקֹב; וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֵּנִי. 2 And God spoke unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said: ‘Jacob, Jacob.’ And he said: ‘Here am I.’

    ג וַיֹּאמֶר, אָנֹכִי הָאֵל אֱלֹהֵי אָבִיךָ; אַל-תִּירָא מֵרְדָה מִצְרַיְמָה, כִּי-לְגוֹי גָּדוֹל אֲשִׂימְךָ שָׁם. 3 And He said: ‘I am God, the God of thy father; fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation.
    ד אָנֹכִי, אֵרֵד עִמְּךָ מִצְרַיְמָה, וְאָנֹכִי, אַעַלְךָ גַם-עָלֹה; וְיוֹסֵף, יָשִׁית יָדוֹ עַל-עֵינֶיךָ.

    4 I will go down with thee into Egypt; and I will also surely bring thee up again; and Joseph shall put his hand upon thine eyes.’

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  491. Time, if I storm a radio station and take it over so I can read my political manifesto to the listeners, do I have a right to read it?

    Paul Montagu (77c694)

  492. “I think the Police showed great restraint yesterday”

    Yes, this could have easily turned into a bloodbath….given the number or rioters that were likely armed. In the end, a couple hour siege and then the building was restored to operation with no major vandalism and no harm to the representatives. The reality is that it’s just a building….yes a lot of symbolism….and it may have been unclear what the intent was as emotions spiked….but once the representatives were safe, it was smart to bring the temperature down….and calmly evict. Hey, they will need to review how/why the protest was able to get as close as it did…and what else could have been done to hold them back….but four dead….3 health related…could have been much worse.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  493. “And those folks are guilty of seditious conspiracy.”

    The question is then whether Trump is guilty of anything. Morally, without question. But legally, I’m not as sure. Encouraging protest is one thing….and fanning emotionalism is another….but without a clear connection between Trump and storming the Capitol….even some sort of loose coordination (like texts that might suggest some foreknowledge of what was going down)….I don’t see a future prosecution. Now morally….with the continued pushing of false narratives about voting fraud….Trump is morally guilty of much…including the killing of the woman inside the Capitol.

    AJ_Liberty (a4ff25)

  494. In word and deed, the Republican party is now a terrorist organization run by and for fascists.

    Dave (1bb933)

  495. “Now morally….with the continued pushing of false narratives about voting fraud….Trump is morally guilty of much…including the killing of the woman inside the Capitol.”

    Morally, every single politician for the past 5 years is guilty of that, which is why people with normal moral reasoning don’t make those statements.

    ” It’s kind of amazing to think that the role models for these seditionists are the Antifa/BLM types who committed violence and damaged property last summer. Principle!
    And those folks are guilty of seditious conspiracy.”

    If they’re not convicted in a timely manner, they’re not guilty. Them’s the rules, and we’re following them. Woe betide you if we decide that those rules no longer apply!

    “Won’t it nag your conscience for the rest of your life that “but for want of mg, the Glorious People’s Revolution of Epiphany was lost”?”

    Yeah, we should have done like NK and sat up all night repeating anti-semitic slur “schnitzel-slurpers” at Republicans.

    The epiphany was achieved. Congress looked like the weak fools we all knew them to be. And America is becoming ungovernable, as the libertarians say they wanted.

    Schnitzel-Slurper (786bbc)

  496. “Trump will pardon all the traitors.”

    As the antifa judges did. It’s called tit for tat, the most basic and fundamental cornerstone of interpersonal legal reasoning that even children and people of childish reasoning can understand.

    Hero Babitt (40b7ca)

  497. Time, if I storm a radio station and take it over so I can read my political manifesto to the listeners, do I have a right to read it?

    Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/7/2021 @ 6:22 am

    You have the same right to read your manifesto that you did before you committed crimes.
    you do not have, and never did have, the right to use another person’s property against their will to send out your message.

    Commission of a crime doesn’t automatically eliminate rights unrelated to that crime. In some cases conviction of a crime may results in the loss of rights; right to travel and assemble while you’re locked up, right to own a hand gun, right to vote. But those losses aren’t automatic and happen after due process.

    I’m not trying to pick nits. What I’m pushing back on is the idea that once someone does something wrong that you or i dislike they’ve automatically lost all rights.

    It’s in the same way that I would push back on the idea that any and all force is appropriate once protestors disobey a lawful order.

    I’m happy the capital police exercised restraint here. We may find out that they exercised too much restraint, or that their restraint is notably different from what they did when BLM protested. We might find out that these differences represent problems we need to fix.

    But I’d rather we have 4 dead, a delay in process and some property damage then 4,000 dead and the next president confirmed in a pristine building over the sound of machine gun fire and the screams of the dying.

    There’s plenty of video evidence, we can start arresting and charging the suspects as soon as the DOJ is run by honest people.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  498. “Trump will pardon all the traitors.”

    As the antifa judges did. It’s called tit for tat, the most basic and fundamental cornerstone of interpersonal legal reasoning that even children and people of childish reasoning can understand.

    Hero Babitt (40b7ca) — 1/7/2021 @ 7:22 am

    You’re a liar who is justifying crime with things that didn’t happen.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  499. Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6) — 1/7/2021 @ 5:39 am

    Quite right. Fear is powerful. It can save your life in flight, or end by death in fight. It is necessary to overcome fear in a crises if one is to keep ones head and preserve life.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  500. Time123 (89dfb2) — 1/7/2021 @ 5:54 am

    The former Miss Babbit was, from all available evidence, a Boogaloo. They kill police. The Congressman who said she had hate in her eyes, saw it with his own eyes. The shooting was righteous.

    nk (1d9030)

  501. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/6/2021 @ 11:06 pm

    You are absolutely right, Kevin. Good thing I said “perhaps” because my mind seldom goes where others do.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  502. What do you think they are doing in the White House right now?

    Stealing the silver and removing all the gold plate in the bathrooms.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  503. JVW (ee64e4) — 1/6/2021 @ 11:11 pm

    I agree completely. Every event is unique, and even the same person does not always act with wisdom in repeatable circumstances, much less in extraordinary moments.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  504. Time123 (89dfb2) — 1/7/2021 @ 5:54 am

    The former Miss Babbit was, from all available evidence, a Boogaloo. They kill police. The Congressman who said she had hate in her eyes, saw it with his own eyes. The shooting was righteous.

    nk (1d9030) — 1/7/2021 @ 7:43 am

    I have no facts on which to judge if shooting her was a necessity, uncalled for, or something in between. My guess is that as we learn more we’ll find out it was an unfortunate necessity.

    But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wishing 4 people hadn’t died, or being happy that many more people didn’t die.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  505. Trumpers should now have the unassailable right to riot every single night

    God only knows how much rioting #NeverTrump is entitled to, after the four-year sh1tfest.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  506. What do you think they are doing in the White House right now?

    Stealing the silver and removing all the gold plate in the bathrooms.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 1/7/2021 @ 7:47 am

    Trying to figure out how to best salvage their futures after what happened and how soon they can start grifting off the news coverage.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  507. The shooting was righteous.

    Impressively accurate, too.

    Dave (1bb933)

  508. God only knows how much rioting #NeverTrump is entitled to, after the four-year sh1tfest.

    I confess that I did have an extra ration of chocolate twice already this past week, and there’s a can of cherry pie filling that I might just eat as is from a bowl.

    nk (1d9030)

  509. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wishing 4 people hadn’t died, or being happy that many more people didn’t die.

    It sends the message that terrorist attacks on the institutions of democracy can be carried out with impunity.

    You can be sure more are already being planned in TrumpWorld.

    Dave (1bb933)

  510. The moral of the story here, is that it is perfectly fine with certain authorities if people riot, as long as [only] other peons are victimized. But woe be unto you if the Elite are the target./sargasm

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  511. Here are the references to “pardons” in Max Farrands “Records of the Federal Convention of 1787”

    Madison’s first take on pardons, in response to the New Jersey Plan (June 19, 1787):

    to have the power of pardoning all offences except Treason; which he shall not pardon without the approbation of the Senate.

    In draft Constitution (July 23, 1787):

    The power of pardoning vested in the Executive (which) his pardon shall not however, be pleadable to an Impeachmt.

    As adopted into working draft in Aug 25, 1787

    It was moved and seconded to insert the words “except in cases of impeachment” after the word “pardons” 2 sect. 10 article

    Then they started arguing about it:
    Aug 25th

    Mr. Sherman moved to amend the “power to grant reprieves & pardon” so as to read “to grant reprieves until the ensuing session of the Senate, and pardons with consent of the Senate.” (Vote: 1-8)

    Aug 27th:

    It was moved and seconded to insert the words “after conviction” after the words “reprieves and pardons” 2 sect. 10 article. — (Motion withdrawn).

    Sept 10th

    Mr. Randolph moved to refer to the Committee also a motion relating to pardons in cases of Treason — which was agreed to

    Debate, Sept 15:

    Mr Randolph moved to “except cases of treason”. The prerogative of pardon in these cases was too great a trust. The President may himself be guilty. The Traytors may be his own instruments.

    Col: Mason supported the motion.

    Mr Govr Morris had rather there should be no pardon for treason, than let the power devolve on the Legislature.

    Mr Wilson. Pardon is necessary for cases of treason, and is best placed in the hands of the Executive. If he be himself a party to the guilt he can be impeached and prosecuted.

    Mr. King thought it would be inconsistent with the Constitutional separation of the Executive & Legislative powers to let the prerogative be exercised by the latter — A Legislative body is utterly unfit for the purpose. They are governed too much by the passions of the moment. In Massachusetts, one assembly would have hung all the insurgents in that [627] State: the next was equally disposed to pardon them all. He suggested the expedient of requiring the concurrence of the Senate in Acts of Pardon.

    Mr. Madison admitted the force of objections to the Legislature, but the pardon of treasons was so peculiarly improper for the President that he should acquiesce in the transfer of it to the former, rather than leave it altogether in the hands of the latter. He would prefer to either an association of the Senate as a Council of advice, with the President.

    Mr Randolph could not admit the Senate into a share of the Power. the great danger to liberty lay in a combination between the President & that body —

    Col: Mason. The Senate has already too much power — There can be no danger of too much lenity in legislative pardons, as the Senate must con concur, & the President moreover can require ⅔ of both Houses4

    On the motion of Mr. Randolph

    N. H. no— Mas. no— Ct. divd. N— J— no. Pa. no— Del. no. Md no— Va ay— N— C. no— S. C. no. Geo— ay. [Ayes — 2; noes — 8; divided — 1.]

    In Objections to the Constitution (George Mason, undated Sept 1787)

    The President of the United States has the unrestrained power of granting pardons for treason, which may be sometimes exercised to screen from punishment those whom he had secretly instigated to commit the crime, and thereby prevent a discovery of his own guilt.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  512. Some of the boogaloo types had flex cuffs. I’ve used those at large protests if you think you might need to detain a large number of people.

    I’m trying to work out in my head what the flex cuffs were for. Either they were cosplaying as a police officer in a riot, or they intended to take a lot of hostages to negotiate for some kind of recount, or there was some other purpose I can’t work out.

    Those saying this was really Antifa controlling the Trump fans are traitors, as far as I’m concerned. Humoring that conspiracy nonsense as Trump says “we love you” and Ivanka calls them patriots, after weeks of promises from Trump fans for civil war yesterday, and their trolls keep bragging about their threat, it’s really grating on me. Of course, with thousands of kooks, some of the kooks are kooks in incoherent ways. I guarantee some of Trump’s most ridiculous protestors actually have marched for police reform with Antifa. So what?

    But the flex cuffs really send a message. Unfortunately our capitol will have to really fortify going forward.

    I suspect some bad calls were made by leadership about how to flow protestors into the building, or how to stand down. Dumb versions of de-escalation, or maybe complicity if the WH has any pull. The actual cops in the building seem to have handled themselves pretty well. This easily could have led to dozens of deaths and real destruction to the building.

    As usual, Trump fans lost. I want that to be the main narrative. The country has been shamed and its prestige damaged, but Trump fans tried and failed as usual.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  513. Nah, the moral of the story is that a Diet Coke Putz is a very different thing from a Beer Hall Putsch.

    nk (1d9030)

  514. I’m trying to work out in my head what the flex cuffs were for. Either they were cosplaying as a police officer in a riot, or they intended to take a lot of hostages to negotiate for some kind of recount, or there was some other purpose I can’t work out.

    they were planning to take hostages. They talked about that online ahead of the rally.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  515. nk (1d9030) — 1/7/2021 @ 8:14 am

    I defer to your expertise on the matter.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  516. The lack of any riot police when there is a rally of right-wing nutcases down the street, and a sociopathic lunatic scheduled to incite them, is inexcusable.

    Dave (1bb933)

  517. Not once did it occur to them that a president might pardon himself. I think that Originalists might find meaning there.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  518. But the flex cuffs really send a message.

    Indeed. And Pelosi’s office seems to have been a goal. They should thank God they didn’t manage to carry that off. The bloodbath would have been extreme.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  519. DC Police (and the District government) are not the A-team. Part of that is structure and part of that are the desires of DC voters.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  520. aphrael (4c4719) — 1/6/2021 @ 2:29 pm

    meanwhile, the rest of us are watching hoping this genie can be put back in the bottle.

    There is no bottle left. I’m surprised people think that there is some sort of going back. The genie wasn’t “let out of the bottle” by uncorking the top. The bottle was thrown against the wall and smashed long before Trump came down the escalator.

    We’re just seeing the inevitable results of at least a decade of bad choices.

    frosty (f27e97)

  521. I am a little concerned about the Othering of Trump supporters today. Not only is it unjust in most cases, but there are quite a few of them, and they will take this as further evidence of the Conspiracy.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  522. Is our VPN all-star going for the Nicholas Cruz soft-glove disparate impact correction treatment?

    urbanleftbehind (f166fc)

  523. Anybody who equates looting a Walmart during a racial riot with invading Congress during a joint session held to count the Electoral College votes cannot be taken seriously.

    nk (1d9030)

  524. We’re just seeing the inevitable results of at least a decade of bad choices.

    And ignoring those hurt by those choices and writing them off as hooligans isn’t right and, worse, won’t work. The Democrats will aim to offer them state support. The GOP should figure out how to offer them jobs. That Trump spoke of an issue does not mean it was not an issue. That Trump failed to deal with it does not mean it cannot be dealt with.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  525. DC Police (and the District government) are not the A-team.

    DC Police are not responsible for security on the grounds of the Capitol, are they?

    Here you can see clearly the moment the police should have opened fire on the terrorists.

    Dave (1bb933)

  526. looting a Walmart

    Surely there are better stores to loot.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  527. 786bbc Dana

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  528. This has been fermenting for decades:

    “They are in a terminal panic. They hear the shouts of the peasants from over the hill. All the knights and barons will be riding into the castle pulling up the drawbridge in a minute. All the peasants are coming with pitchforks. We’re going to take this over the top.” – Pat Buchanan, 1996

    DCSCA (f4c5e5)

  529. Anybody who equates looting a Walmart during a racial riot with invading Congress during a joint session held to count the Electoral College votes cannot be taken seriously.

    This.

    Dave (1bb933)

  530. the moment the police should have opened fire on the terrorists.

    I disagree. There were other ways to prevent injury of loss of life. If one can retreat safely, one should. There are enough cameras available that those who entered the building can be identified, arrested and prosecuted.

    Shooting them at that point would have changed the narrative from “terrible, no good, barbarian Trump mob” to “Tienanmen Square.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  531. *or loss of life

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  532. Are rubber bullets and pepper balls only for the kids in front of a church?

    Bad planning on…plan during the age of Trump is the worst of all four letter words.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (1367c0)

  533. But woe be unto you if the Elite are the target.

    They attacked the government that We the People elected, in an effort to keep a losing presidential candidate in power. And many people have observed that the Capitol police treated them relatively gently, on the whole, even taking selfies with seditious rioters.

    tit for tat, the most basic and fundamental cornerstone of interpersonal legal reasoning that even children and people of childish reasoning can understand

    One part of that statement is correct. But Trump’s rule isn’t tit for tat, it’s “hit back ten times as hard,” or if you hurt my ego a little bit, I will destroy you. That’s what he has done to the GOP and what he is trying to do to the whole country right now.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  534. “We won, didn’t we?” — The police

    Schnitzel-slurpers can fantasize that the police are on their side all they want, but the fact is that that paycheck and that pension are not coming from scumbags waving Trump flags, they’re coming from people who want them to preserve normality.

    nk (1d9030)

  535. “Morally, every single politician for the past 5 years is guilty of that”

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. Trump is purposefully misleading people about election fraud. He has no evidence….just internet memes to keep people angry and willing to act out. He’s lost scores of lawsuits. Our Chief law enforcement officer is creating chaos…and pressuring other officials to do similar….in order to try to somehow remain in power. This should be deeply troubling regardless of one’s view on how BLM/Antifa riots were handled….the implications are far more serious.

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  536. Are rubber bullets and pepper balls only for the kids in front of a church?

    The people who broke into the Capitol in an effort to steal an election for Trump were treated more indulgently than the people who were lawfully protesting outside when Trump wanted to have an absurd photo op.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  537. They attacked the government that We the People elected, in an effort to keep a losing presidential candidate in power. And many people have observed that the Capitol police treated them relatively gently, on the whole, even taking selfies with seditious rioters.

    We the people? Sure, you are including those who voted for Trump, right? As far as selfies, I confess to being puzzled by some of the manifestations of human behavior last night.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  538. Anybody who equates looting a Walmart…

    Equating, yes! but comparing/contrasting – not so much. Otherwise, what is nuance for?

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  539. @471

    I imagine that the shooter panicked and fired out of fear of life.

    I would hate to believe that Capitol Police might be that skittish. Perhaps she was holding something that appeared at a glance to be a weapon, even though I think reports are that she was unarmed.

    JVW (ee64e4) — 1/6/2021 @ 11:11 pm

    I watched some of the videos surrounding the shooting.

    There’s literally a group capital police right by the shooting victim on her side of the door.

    Gut feeling, the shooter had poor trigger discipline and got spooked. Very unfortunate situation.

    whembly (c30c83)

  540. “But Trump’s rule isn’t tit for tat, it’s “hit back ten times as hard,” or if you hurt my ego a little bit, I will destroy you.”

    And it’s never been theirs? The only egos you’re defending currently are the egos of Congress, i.e. the most hated, most disconnected, and most openly corporate-sponsored branch of government. This reckoning was long in coming, and was much deserved.

    “Trump is purposefully misleading people about election fraud.”

    “They attacked the government that We the People elected, in an effort to keep a losing presidential candidate in power.”

    Neither you nor any of your representatives have given anything resembling a fair hearing to the election fraud allegations, so these declarations of protest are, as are the declarations of most status quo defenders, lazy, immature, and immaterial.

    “the fact is that that paycheck and that pension are not coming from scumbags waving Trump flags, they’re coming from people who want them to preserve normality.”

    And if that paycheck and that pension is withdrawn due to ‘defund the police’ nonsense that the Right as well as the Left may now be amenable to, how soon do you think those police would turn on them?

    As a certain Adolf once experienced, eliminationist rhetoric might feel good at the moment, but it can come right back to bite you if you’re not careful.

    Twitter Safety Councilor (dc2f7b)

  541. “Very unfortunate situation.”

    – whembly

    It’s got nothing to do with “fortune.” As one of my friends so eloquently put it: “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”

    Leviticus (efada1)

  542. they were planning to take hostages. They talked about that online ahead of the rally.

    Time123 (457a1d) — 1/7/2021 @ 8:23 am

    I don’t want to be an internet tough guy here, but in that case, the police leadership and intel teams should have been prepared for using much more force. They need to investigate what role the white house played in preventing real assets outside the building. We know Trump refused to help yesterday. This isn’t a game and if you’re rushing a building with folks who want hostages, you can tell. They need to put every one of these people, every single one of them, in prison.

    Dustin (4237e0)

  543. It’s only a manner of speaking, Leviticus, just the same as yours.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  544. @553 I mean yea, she bears some responsibility too. Anytime a life is lost, it’s unfortunate. No matter what side you’re on.

    whembly (c30c83)

  545. “…a fair hearing to the election fraud allegations…”

    Trump has had 2 months and has not come up with any evidence of significant fraud. How long do we delay transfer of power without any good faith reasonable doubt evidence. This is a recipe to ensure that no election is final….it’s just the kickoff for hearings and more hearings. Putin loves your arguments….the more chaos….the more polarization…the better. Why are you falling for it?

    AJ_Liberty (ec7f74)

  546. they were planning to take hostages. They talked about that online ahead of the rally.

    Time123 (457a1d) — 1/7/2021 @ 8:23 am

    I don’t want to be an internet tough guy here, but in that case, the police leadership and intel teams should have been prepared for using much more force. They need to investigate what role the white house played in preventing real assets outside the building. We know Trump refused to help yesterday. This isn’t a game and if you’re rushing a building with folks who want hostages, you can tell. They need to put every one of these people, every single one of them, in prison.

    Dustin (4237e0) — 1/7/2021 @ 9:09 am

    yes

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  547. @557, there is no process that Trump, the terrorists that stormed the capital or their supporters will accept if it produces a result they dislike.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  548. Paul Montagu (77c694) — 1/7/2021 @ 5:29 am

    It’s kind of amazing to think that the role models for these seditionists are the Antifa/BLM types who committed violence and damaged property last summer. Principle!

    Why is this amazing and not inevitable? No one seriously condemned the BLM/Antifa violence at the time. In fact, BLM was rewarded with cash, embraced by a variety of politicians on the left, and we are still given all sorts of excuses for the violence. BLM/Antifa also embrace violent direct action aka violence for political ends. If Trumpers are as unprincipled as is claimed why wouldn’t they embrace the same tactics? Especially now, that they’ve been shown to be effective?

    I’ll say what I said then, this violence is wrong and it will not end well. But asserting that all of this violence is “on Trump” isn’t moving in a good direction. To paraphrase Archer, do you want more violence? Because this is how you get more violence.

    frosty (f27e97)

  549. Sure, you are including those who voted for Trump, right?

    Yes I am. They had an equal chance to participate in the election, and their candidate lost. Now many of them are being the worst sore losers I’ve ever seen, in support of a president who declared beforehand that an election he lost would necessarily be illegitimate.

    People who favor Trump often use “We the People” or “the American People” as though it included only themselves, and not people who voted for Biden or any other candidates they oppose. I live among people who mostly do not share my political views, and I do not think that makes them any less American. It’s a shame that Trumpers don’t accept that truth.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  550. @552-
    Neither you nor any of your representatives have given anything resembling a fair hearing to the election fraud allegations…..

    The (Republican-Sedition) state legislatures (or Congress) have had two months to conduct investigations, yet they declined to do so. Why?

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  551. And it’s never been theirs? The only egos you’re defending currently are the egos of Congress

    Melania boasted at the 2016 convention that “hit back ten times as hard” was Trump’s creed, and the crowd applauded. That’s going beyond Obama’s “they bring a knife, we bring a gun,” which conservatives thought was unconscionably awful at the time. And Trump’s history of vindictiveness in action goes well beyond the average in politics or in human affairs generally.

    I’m not defending the egos of anyone in Congress. I doubt that anyone there has an ego as fragile as Trump’s. I’m defending the institutions established to serve the citizens when it’s under assault by a disgruntled faction of cultists who can’t handle the fact that their candidate lost — an assault encouraged by a president who is psychologically unable to accept a defeat and go away gracefully.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  552. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2021 @ 9:15 am

    “…a fair hearing to the election fraud allegations…”

    Trump has had 2 months and has not come up with any evidence of significant fraud.

    A lot of the cases have been dismissed on what most people would consider legal technicalities and in some cases obscure ones, i.e. laches. But the media and D’s are presenting this as being dismissed after a careful review of the evidence. That laches and standing and other things do apply may be true but it doesn’t address the actual issue. It’s a joke at this point that any claims of fraud arrive pre-debunked.

    It’s also true that some of the legal eagles trying to move these cases are anything but. Ineffective counsel doesn’t mean the underlying assertion is false.

    I’ve also seen the comment made here several times to the effect that this was a “free and fair” election. That isn’t a provable statement. The claim that we have “free and fair” elections, in general, is a statement of belief that is made because the alternative isn’t something anyone wants to address. If there was confidence that this was, in fact, true there would be bi-partisan support for investigations into each allegation if only to attempt to restore trust in the system. Almost everything going on now by both sides is only undermining trust further.

    frosty (f27e97)

  553. Radegunda (20775b) — 1/7/2021 @ 9:38 am

    I am gladdened by your answer and the reasons in support of it.

    felipe at a different terminal (084d77)

  554. @564-
    The state legislatures and Congress have had two months to hold hearings, and they have not. Why?

    Also, no amount of favorable hearings or court rulings would change the minds of the insurrectionists, it is pointless to try.

    Rip Murdock (80e6b4)

  555. 547. AJ_Liberty (ec7f74) — 1/7/2021 @ 8:51 am

    Trump is purposefully misleading people about election fraud. He has no evidence….just internet memes to keep people angry and willing to act out.

    He was not only misleading people about election fraud, which he was claiming was on large a scale that he won by the type of margin Biden in the popular vote, but he was lying about how many people and who believed in election fraud.

    He was claiming the Democrats all knew (and agreed in private) that the election had been stolen. That was his strongest claim.

    And that at least he had to know for sure was a lie.

    But I think he was also being lied to. He was being lied to – by somebody – about the prospects of reversing the election outcome.

    It was a lie not only about the facts (of what people might do or might be induced to do) but about the law.

    The way I make sense of it, President Trump’s goal yesterday seems to have been to postpone Congress’ announcement of the winner for another night and a day – till Thursday night.

    He had already had allies in Congress postponing it by 12 hours at least by challenging 6 state’s votes, but this would only have taken him till early this morning. Giuliani left a recorded message in which it is clear he was going for at least 10 challenges.

    Now what would that get him?

    Somebody must have been telling him, that that would give him more time to lobby state legislatures, and supply them with evidence, which they were just, just about to get, that would cause them to replace the certified electors with other electors.

    That was Trump’s strategy: to get one more extra day and replace the electors.

    This was wrong in multiple ways: There wasn’t any such evidence, of course; the state legislatures were probably mostly not in session; the state legislatures wouldn’t do it – and legally, the Electors had to vote by December 14, and a state couldn’t choose new electors after that. It certainly couldn’t choose them any time with the only condition being that they had to be chosen before Congress counted the votes.

    Yet, reading between the lines etc this was what Trump was thinking.

    This strategy is so at variance with all facts and all laws and provisions of the U.S. constitution that whoever sold Trump on this had to be lying

    And I say that if Trump was lied to about strategy, he was probably lied to also about tactics.

    He needed the demonstration to gain a little bit more time. He expected the demonstration to be peaceful, (because he knew there cold be a backlash from a violent one) but, because of their numbers, to scare wavering Republican members of Congress about their prospects for re-election, and get them to vote to reject electors or at least to postpone their acceptance. (Trump is very much impressed by crowd size and doesn’t pay attention to how random or typical a sample a crowd is)

    The people who organized the demonstration had their own motives, and it wasn’t actually trying to gain for Trump a second term. I can’t quite figure out yet what they were; maybe more information would help; but it could have been, in part, to make themselves more important and get more money.

    Diminishing the Republican Party could be part of it too. Less competition.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  556. Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/7/2021 @ 9:54 am

    The (Republican-Sedition) state legislatures (or Congress) have had two months to conduct investigations, yet they declined to do so. Why?

    This is a very good question. It might be one of the many reasons why a growing plurality of people are starting to think there is a problem that voting might not fix.

    It’s also a question not limited to R’s. If D’s want to claim the moral high ground because democracy it might be a good idea for them to do something other than carrying around a broom looking for a rug.

    frosty (f27e97)

  557. Laches is not an obscure doctrine when applied to election law. It is, in fact, one of the core principles of election law.

    Let’s use the example of the vote collection centers. One of the Trumpist complaints is that in one of the states, I don’t remember which, in some counties the local election office established what were essentially drive-in early voting setups, not located at the county office, where people could come in and vote and immediately return their ballot. these setups were not clearly authorized by state law, there’s a legal dispute over whether or not they complied with the law, and this is one of the examples being brought forward of an unconstitutional removal of election-governing authority from the legislature.

    The legal challenge to this practice could have been brought before the election. If it had been, and if it had succeeded, then the people who voted this way — the people who *only voted this way because the elections office told them they could do so* — could have had the opportunity to recast their ballot in a clearly and unambiguously legal manner, and their vote could have been cast.

    But the legal challenge was held until after the election, at which point the only options before the court are to count the ballots *which were cast by people who believed they were legally voting* (even though they in fact were not) or to not count the ballots *which were cast by people who believed they were legally voting*.

    Put another way: a successful challenge before the election makes it possible for people who (a) were legally allowed to vote but (b) who were induced to vote via an illegal process due to malfeasance of the election office to (c) revote and have their vote counted, but a successful challenge after the election means that (a) people who were legally allowed to vote (b) and who were duped into voting illegally by the malfeasance of the election office are (c) disenfranchised and their vote doesn’t count.

    Allowing election challenges which could have been brought before the election but were not *significantly harms* the rights of innocent voters who were duped by bad election office practices.

    That fact has caused courts to look with disfavor on these kind of challenges *for decades*.

    aphrael (4c4719)

  558. But asserting that all of this violence is “on Trump” isn’t moving in a good direction.

    I agree to the extent that it isn’t moving in a good direction if we don’t also hold accountable the other politicians and the pundits and talking heads who have stirred up the mob, along with all those who have chosen to play at civil war.

    OTOH, Trump was the first to declare that he couldn’t possibly lose except by fraud. He refused to commit to accepting an election result he didn’t like. Then he used his bully pulpit every day, practically every hour, to stir up anger among his cult followers. He called on them to be in D.C. for a “wild” protest. He declared that he would NEVER concede, and said they needed to fight harder.

    Trump wants credit for anything good that happened while he was president, and blame for nothing bad. He could have calmed things down over the past two months if he wanted to, but he wanted to do the opposite.

    I think the result would have been less bad without the contributions of other pols and pundits to fomenting rage, but we’ve seen over and over that Trumpers are faithful to Trump alone, no matter what. If everyone else in the GOP and in right-wing media had said the election was fair, the core of the Trump-faithful would have called them all traitors or weaklings, and would have heeded their leader’s call to make things “wild” in D.C.

    It’s mostly on Trump, but secondarily on the people who were the first to use their status and platforms to insist that he was the one man who could save America.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  559. @565 — Thanks, felipe.

    Radegunda (20775b)

  560. @564 There were several times when cases were dismissed because no evidence was presented or for standing when claims requiring evidence were withdrawn. Frex, the Penn case that Guiliani was trying to make dropped their claim that observers were excluded, so their claim was only that allowing curing ballots wasn’t OK, but the state supreme court had allowed the curing of ballots and, as a state election issue, that was the proper venue for that decision to be made. The judge said that even if they had had standing, he would’ve dismissed the case on the merits.

    Nic (896fdf)

  561. Rip Murdock (80e6b4) — 1/7/2021 @ 9:54 am

    The (Republican-Sedition) state legislatures (or Congress) have had two months to conduct investigations, yet they declined to do so. Why?

    This is a very good question. It might be one of the many reasons why a growing plurality of people are starting to think there is a problem that voting might not fix.

    It’s also a question not limited to R’s. If D’s want to claim the moral high ground because democracy it might be a good idea for them to do something other than carrying around a broom looking for a rug.

    frosty (f27e97) — 1/7/2021 @ 10:06 am

    There’s a very easy answer: Because when you start examining the accusation of fraud seriously you quickly find out that they’re baseless and wrong.

    GOP leaders, Trump, Hawley, Cruz etc have convinced their bases of a lie, that the election was determined by fraud. They’re joined in this by newsmax and OAN and countless FB trolls that replace actual evidence of fraud with hypotheticals about what ‘could’ have happened and misprepresentations of the facts.

    When they found something confusing or hard to explain they say “Fraud”. When they find a coincidence they say “Fraud”. When they find actual examples of fraud they say “See, it can happen so our loss must have been determined by fraud”. Over and over again the base is told it was fraud so the believe it.

    Of course the GOP base is frustrated that all GOP leaders aren’t stopping the fraud that doesn’t exist. Not all GOP leaders are so willing to blatantly lie and steal an election.

    Here you repeat a misrepresentation off the facts.

    A lot of the cases have been dismissed on what most people would consider legal technicalities and in some cases obscure ones, i.e. laches. But the media and D’s are presenting this as being dismissed after a careful review of the evidence. That laches and standing and other things do apply may be true but it doesn’t address the actual issue. It’s a joke at this point that any claims of fraud arrive pre-debunked.

    It’s incorrect to say that courts didn’t look at the facts.
    Courts in PA, MI, AZ, and GA did look at the facts brought by the Trump campaign. They rejected those claims based on a review of the evidence presented.
    Here’s a link to one such decision.

    There were cases rejected for standing, or for being moot, or for being way to late. But many of those cases were about the rules that were used, not accusations that the election was fraudulent.

    It’s also true that some of the legal eagles trying to move these cases are anything but. Ineffective counsel doesn’t mean the underlying assertion is false.

    He’s rich, he can hire all the lawyers he wants.

    I’ve also seen the comment made here several times to the effect that this was a “free and fair” election. That isn’t a provable statement. The claim that we have “free and fair” elections, in general, is a statement of belief that is made because the alternative isn’t something anyone wants to address. If there was confidence that this was, in fact, true there would be bi-partisan support for investigations into each allegation if only to attempt to restore trust in the system. Almost everything going on now by both sides is only undermining trust further.

    Trump is the head of of the GOP, he claims to be a billionaire, and has raised 200,000,000$ to fight the results of the election.
    Every state has a process to ensure their election is fair.
    Every state has a process to contest it elections.

    So far Trump has found no signifigant evidence of fraud. In fact, may of the things they’ve asserted (Dominion cheated, the dead voted, fraudulent absentee ballots) have been disproven in specific areas.

    But they claim doesn’t change because Trump and his supporters don’t want to find out what happened, or prove fraud. There’s no process they will accept if it produces a result they dislike.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  562. Another thought

    I’ve also seen the comment made here several times to the effect that this was a “free and fair” election. That isn’t a provable statement. The claim that we have “free and fair” elections, in general, is a statement of belief that is made because the alternative isn’t something anyone wants to address.

    We have a process to hold elections and requirements that must be met. When those processes are followed and requirements are met we call it a free and fair election.

    Time123 (d1bf33)

  563. Dustin (4237e0) — 1/7/2021 @ 9:09 am

    They need to investigate what role the white house played in preventing real assets outside the building.

    It could have been something as simple as not telling the Metropolitan Police Department that the demonstrators were going to head to the Capitol. And we don’t know at this stage who, if anybody, the MPD was staying in contact with to know where the demonstration were going to go.

    The MPD did not spy on social media, possibly because of lawsuits and court decisions brought by civil libertarians or people affiliated with the left, but they relied on a central source for intelligence and apparently they didn’t know anything was going to take place there at the Capitol.

    It would be interesting to find out if they had been assured nothing, as far as the pro-Trump demonstrators were concerned, would take place near the Capitol, and if so, by whom.

    They knew many people were coming to Washington, but they thought it would be like November 19 and December 12.

    I am not sure at what press conference those two dates were mentioned.

    Some of the people who went from the National Mall to the Capitol area came equipped with tear gas (or Mace

    Here is a transcript of a different press conference by Washington D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser with Police Chief Contee and others:

    https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/d-c-mayor-muriel-bowser-press-conference-on-capitol-protests-transcript-january-6

    Chief Contee: (04:01)

    It was clear that the crowd was intent on causing harm to our officers by deploying chemical irritants on police to force entry into the United States Capitol building. [!] As you are aware, they were able to gain access to the Capitol Building.

    If you know anywhere else were tear gas was used by protesters, there might be a link between those two demonstrations. Tis seems unheard of, but if it happened anywhere in the past, even twenty years ago, there might be a link.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  564. Mike Pence’s chief of staff has reportedly been denied access to the White House.

    People who would normally meet with Trump are avoiding him, apparently because if they do, they might be called upon to testify and need to hire lawyers.

    Senator Schumer has called on Pence to invoke the 25th amendment, and if not he would like the House to impeach Trump.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)

  565. 177. So much for the 25th amendment. (which would be a misuse of it anyway)

    Impeachment (and threats of criminal prosecution and disobedience) is the way to go.

    Sammy Finkelman (fac2c6)


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