Patterico's Pontifications

9/8/2020

John Bolton Disputes Claims That Trump Denigrated Fallen U.S. Troops In France

Filed under: General — Dana @ 11:50 am



[guest post by Dana]

John Bolton, who we know doesn’t hold Trump in high regard, has publicly said that the claims from anonymous sources as reported at The Atlantic are not true:

Former national security adviser John Bolton disputed the main thesis of The Atlantic’s recent report alleging that President Trump disparaged fallen American soldiers in France, calling the claim “simply false” in an appearance on “The Story” Monday.

“According to what that article said, the president made disparaging remarks about soldiers and people buried in the cemetery in connection with the decision for him not to go to the ceremony that was planned that afternoon, and that was simply false,” Bolton said.

“I don’t know who told the author that, but that was false.”

The president canceled the planned 2018 trip to the cemetery for American war dead in France because of the weather and not because of disdain for the slain soldiers, Bolton said, contradicting the report from The Atlantic claiming that Trump described the Aisne-Marne American Cemetery as being “filled with losers.”

“I don’t know who told the author that, but that was false.”

“The main issue was whether or not weather conditions permitted the president to go out to the cemetery,” Bolton, who was in the room at the time, recalled.

Former chief of staff John Kelly presented “logistical reasons why the trip couldn’t take place and the president assented to the recommendation that he not go,” Bolton explained.

Trump “sort of took the facts as they were,” Bolton said, calling the canceled trip a “very straight weather call.”

Bolton added that he would not put it past the President to disparage veterans, and pointed out what we already know:

“The president has a habit of disparaging people. He ends up denigrating almost everybody that he comes in contact with whose last name is not Trump.”

He was adamant that, when the decision was made, the President did not make the remarks as reported:

“I was simply responding to what I thought [was] the main point of The Atlantic article: that at the critical point Saturday morning, when the decision was made not to go to Aisne-Marne, that he made the disparaging remarks,” Bolton said, “and he did not.”

However, four days ago, Bolton did allow that it’s possible that Trump made disparaging remarks later in the day:

Bolton was on the 2018 trip to Paris with Trump but said he didn’t hear the president disparage the dead Marines himself.

“I didn’t hear him say those things,” he said, adding later he probably would have included the remarks in his book if he had. “Now, did he say those things to other people later in the day? It’s certainly possible.”

Two other individuals who were in the room at the time have also come out to deny that Trump made the comments about troops in Europe. The one that interests me the most is Zach Fuentes, former Deputy White House Chief of Staff:

Fuentes unequivocally denied The Atlantic’s report last week[.]

Fuentes personally briefed President Trump on the weather situation that led to the trip being canceled. He is also a close personal confidante of former White House Chief of Staff John Kelly.

“You can put me on record denying that I spoke with The Atlantic,” Fuentes told Breitbart News on Monday. “I don’t know who the sources are. I did not hear POTUS call anyone losers when I told him about the weather. Honestly, do you think General Kelly would have stood by and let ANYONE call fallen Marines losers?”

Fuentes also said that he is not happy to see Trump disparaging John Kelly:

“On a separate note, I am disappointed to see POTUS talk about General Kelly so negatively in the middle of being accused of saying negative things about the military,” Fuentes said. “If anyone understands selfless service, it’s General Kelly.”

The other individual countering claims in The Atlantic is United States Ambassador to France, Jamie McCourt:

“Needless to say, I never spoke to The Atlantic, and I can’t imagine who would,” McCourt told Breitbart News.

“In my presence, POTUS has NEVER denigrated any member of the U.S. military or anyone in service to our country. And he certainly did not that day, either,” she added.

McCourt said the president was very disappointed he could not visit the cemetery at Belleau Wood, adding, “In fact, the next day, he attended and spoke at the ceremony in Suresnes in the pouring rain.”

While we have ourselves witnessed what sort of man Trump is, and have no illusions about him or the awful things he is willing to say about people he views as weak or as losers, I do think that it’s time for the anonymous sources to come forward with their claims.

–Dana

270 Responses to “John Bolton Disputes Claims That Trump Denigrated Fallen U.S. Troops In France”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (292df6)

  2. No witnesses to the supposed statements. Sounds like fake news. Was Dan Rather involved?

    Frank (bcb576)

  3. This seems like one of those times where the adage “If it seems too good (or bad) to be true, wait 48 hours before you share it” might have been a good one to follow.

    It might still be. Which is why I’m stopping with that observation.

    Demosthenes (9229dc)

  4. Bolton’s defense really isn’t one, it’s an indictment of just how bad Trump actually is that Bolton would remember the one 5 minute period that Trump didn’t say something insulting. He specifically says that Trump does say things just like that all the time.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  5. Indeed, these anon sources ought to come forward. They’ll find most of the media embracing.

    Interestingly, Goldberg is trying to have it both ways:

    “And I share that view that it’s not good enough,” he continued. “But, you know, like other reporters, I’m always balancing out the moral ambiguities and complications of anonymous sourcing with a public’s right to know.”

    https://dailycaller.com/2020/09/08/the-atlantic-editorial-in-chief-jeffrey-goldberg-anonymous-sourcing-not-good-enough/

    If it’s not good enough, then don’t publish. It’s really as simple as that. Otherwise, you run the risks of ruining your credibility.

    whembly (c30c83)

  6. Narrative is much more important than truth, Dana. Orwell knew what he was writing about, and for good reason.

    Simon Jester (570aff)

  7. Speaking of quotes:

    Tom Elliott
    @tomselliott
    .
    @JoeBiden: “The only person calling to defund the police is Donald Trump.”
    __ _

    Steven Crowder
    @scrowder

    When the dementia hits you hard…
    _

    harkin (cd4502)

  8. Trump is not the only one of everybody, but he is the only one of the Presidential candidates. He was literally years ahead of the hippies when he defunded, or tried to defund, the police of sanctuary cities, and he is now calling for defunding police departments who are not handling the protests in a way that makes him look good.

    nk (1d9030)

  9. PS And Steven Crowder is a loser for whom dementia would be an improvement.

    nk (1d9030)

  10. Trump “sort of took the facts as they were,” Bolton said, calling the canceled trip a “very straight weather call.”

    We have those photos of all these other leaders who made it. In fact, many American leaders made it.

    Bolton had actionable information against Trump he didn’t share with Congress, saving for his book. Once again Bolton has made himself the center of attention in a weird ‘frenemy’ of Trump way.

    Regardless, all this means is that Bolton didn’t hear the insults. Which is weird because some of Trump’s nasty comments about war heroes he has said on national TV.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  11. Interesting. I think the sources need to come forward.

    Time123 (cd2ff4)

  12. Bolton’s book escaped the injunction, but the constructive trust count (confiscation of the proceeds) is still pending. Bolton needs Barr to voluntarily dismiss that count. I can tell him, it’s a faint hope. Trump’s vindictiveness is not that easily assuaged.

    nk (1d9030)

  13. Bolton’s defense really isn’t one, it’s an indictment of just how bad Trump actually is that Bolton would remember the one 5 minute period that Trump didn’t say something insulting.

    and

    Regardless, all this means is that Bolton didn’t hear the insults.

    This is why I was very careful to include his comments from four days ago that the President may have made those comments later in the day when he wasn’t in earshot. That’s why I’d just like to cut to the chase and have the anonymous sources make their case publicly. I’m not sure that there wouldn’t be a risk associated with that however, depending on the positions they hold.

    Dana (292df6)

  14. Stop turning the horse into tasajo.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  15. Whether or not certain people heard Trump say certain things at a specific time, there are good reasons why so many people find it plausible that Trump has said such things at one time or another.

    “The president has a habit of disparaging people. He ends up denigrating almost everybody that he comes in contact with whose last name is not Trump.”

    We all know it – though some people deny it. We’ve heard him openly denigrating top brass, with lots of medals on their uniforms. It takes a lot of credulity to believe he has never had a disrespectful thought toward the common soldiers who somehow (he thinks) couldn’t find a way to make more money and avoid personal danger and discomfort. There’s nothing in his background to suggest he has any real empathy with them, however much he might like having armies at his command, saluting to him.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  16. Trump’s vindictiveness is not that easily assuaged.

    This too is obvious, though denied by the cultists.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  17. It takes a lot of credulity to believe he has never had a disrespectful thought toward the common soldiers who somehow (he thinks) couldn’t find a way to make more money and avoid personal danger and discomfort.

    I dont’ think it takes credulity to believe this. Given that we have all heard and witnessed him make disparaging remarks about “loser” soldiers (McCain) and Gold Star families (Khizr Khan), it takes intentional dishonesty and denial to belive what you suggest.

    Dana (292df6)

  18. So Bolton didn’t hear “losers” and “suckers” and such, but others did.
    Bolton is widely recognized as an a$$hole, but is not known to be an untruthful a$$hole.

    Paul Montagu (272303)

  19. As I said in a previous post, if Trump were a decent human being instead of a mean-spirited, vituperous insult machine, no one would have believed those reports in the first place. They only gained traction because, as Bolton said, no one would put it past Trump to spout such indecencies.

    Roger (a5bda3)

  20. Agreed, Roger.

    Dana (292df6)

  21. @16 “It takes a lot of credulity to believe he has never had a disrespectful thought …”

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  22. @19 — Trump defenders will never tire of insisting that he is really a much better person than the one he regularly displays to the public — contrary to virtually every other human being.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  23. “ better luck next time”
    __

    Careful, there are people around here who still consider Vindman a hero.
    _

    harkin (c314b6)

  24. @19: Ah yes — false, but sounds true. Therefore, the story is still accurate.

    It never gets old.

    beer ‘n pretzels (4ec7b6)

  25. Trump’s reputation for saying such disparaging things is comfortably exceeded by the media’s reputation for making things up, and anti-Trump cultists’ reputation for swallowing it whole.

    beer ‘n pretzels (4ec7b6)

  26. @17. Shorter: a conservative. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. bnp,

    We don’t actually know whether it’s false or true. We have different people (allegedly) in the room claiming something different. We also know that Trump could have made the comments when out of Bolton’s earshot. Based on what we historically know about Trump, it is more than just possible that he made the comments. There are things about Trump that are undeniable: he has made disparaging remarks in the past about a decorated veteran and he has denigrated a Gold Star family without batting an eye. By those examples, along with a slew of other insults he has directed toward people from all walks of life, it is not unreasonable to believe that he would disparage fallen soldiers in France. I think Roger is right though: if Trump hadn’t showed us who he is over the past 3+ years, this story would have been written off, and not gained any traction. However, as it stands, it’s precisely because Trump has shown us his true colors that the story seems credible, and has gained traction.

    Dana (292df6)

  28. You realize how many people here have turned into Dan Rather with his “fake, but accurate” claim just because they personally dislike Trump.

    NJRob (37860d)

  29. Catturd ™
    @catturd2
    ·
    Lol – Less than two months before the election and Joe Biden or Kamala Harris won’t take questions unless they give out the questions in advance.
    __ _

    Francis Brennan
    @FrancisBrennan
    ·
    WATCH: Kamala Harris refuses to take questions.

    “I think we’re all set.” – Kamala Harris.
    _ _

    Cathleen Decker [Washington Post]
    @cathleendecker

    In a presidential campaign, nearly every move is calculated. But not Harris’s footwear. She has white Chuck Taylor All-Stars–and also off-white, black, and even a still-secret sequined pair. On Monday, the shoes went viral, via @chelsea_janes
    __

    Excuse me if I don’t have much faith in the msm.
    _

    harkin (c314b6)

  30. Dana, we would all do well to take into account the reputations of all parties involved, not just Trump’s, and weigh them accordingly, as I noted @25.

    beer ‘n pretzels (630d56)

  31. Trump takes the bark off; he was right about Vietnam; the Pentagon Papers confirm the sucker job played on the guys and gals who went by ex-Ford exec McNamara, Texan LBJ, Californian Nixon, career General Westmoreland–even cheerleader John Wayne– and the rest of that steaming pile of scum, now waiting tables in Hell.

    Those bastards knew.

    And Carter wisely pardoned those who fled. But calling those who did ‘follow’ “suckers” today- in their senior years, won’t win votes. And old folks do vote. No point reminding a vet- whole, maimed and scarred for life of it. They live the reminder every day. The damage done to the confidence in our institutions by those now dead politicians is still with us.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  32. I think it is despicable that those that want these stories to be true (looking at you CNN) are continuing to promote them, even after the Atlantic walks them back, to the point where they use them to generate more headlines, such as today from retired General Eaton

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. Trump is nekuturny enough without making up stuff. One debunked attack gives cover to 10 true things.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. Californian Nixon

    OK, defend that. How did Nixon get us into Vietnam?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. So DCSCA, you also think we’re losers and suckers? So Trump was only talking about Vietnam when he was disparaging the military here, or here, or here?

    He’s smarter than the generals, and this one 7 year old he met, it was Eric, a real dumb.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  36. Bolton is widely recognized as an a$$hole, but is not known to be an untruthful a$$hole.

    They are all honorable men.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  37. When will we stop listening to “anonymous” sources? Haven’t we learned this yet? I’m wiating until cancel culture gets the “anonymous denunciation” box.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  38. “ But the Transition Integrity Project noted that there would be immense pressure on Biden to fight it out if, for the third time in 20 years, the Democratic candidate won the popular vote but didn’t take office. In a simulation they ran,Team Biden “ encouraged Western states, particularly California but also Oregon and Washington, and collectively known as ‘Cascadia,’ to secede from the Union” unless structural reforms were made. In exchange for Trump getting the presidency, for instance, Republicans would need to agree to abolish the Electoral College, give Puerto Rico and D.C. statehood, and divide California into five states for better Senate representation.”

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-left-secretly-preps-for-violence-after-election-day
    _

    Sunny McSunnyface
    @sunnyright

    “We want 7 new states if you win by the established rules” is quite a demand
    _

    Change You Can Believe In
    _

    harkin (c314b6)

  39. You realize how many people here have turned into Dan Rather with his “fake, but accurate” claim just because they personally dislike Trump.

    The claims aren’t “fake”. Goldberg and a handful of others have confidential sources telling them what Trump said.
    The Rather claims were based on forged documents. There’re no forgeries in this situation and, since multiple outlets are reporting it, no fakeries.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a)

  40. OK, defend that. How did Nixon get us into Vietnam?

    Looking for DSCA to be accurate with history, not likely.

    When Nixon was elected in 1952 and sent the first US troops to Vietnam in 1955, with the first on the ground casualty in 1959 (2 US pilots were shot down at Dien Bien Phu in 53), it was all Nixon.

    Wait, it was Eisenhower that was president and Nixon was Veep? Nah, never happened. It wasn’t Kennedy who escalated.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  41. An anonymous source just contacted me to tell me Obama’s birth certificate is fake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Dustin (825e2c)

  42. The claims are fake Paul. They are based on the President not wanting to go because he disparaged dead soldiers when he wasn’t able to go because the helicopter couldn’t travel in the weather.

    But you’ll continue to believe what you want to because you feel it’s true. Orange Man Bad.

    NJRob (37860d)

  43. Careful, there are people around here who still consider Vindman a hero.

    He’s a Ranger with a Purple Heart. He’s a hero.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a)

  44. Trump’s reputation for saying such disparaging things is comfortably exceeded by the media’s reputation for making things up, and anti-Trump cultists’ reputation for swallowing it whole.

    My low opinion of Trump is based primarily on what he says and tweets directly. There is no need to “make things up” to make him look very bad. If I “swallow” media reports, it’s because they are consonant with what Trump directly shows himself to be.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  45. The claims are fake Paul.

    That’s your opinion, not a fact, a concept that you keep confusing, Rob. It probably is true about the cancellation of the chopper ride, but there are too confidential sources confirming with multiple journalists about what Trump said.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a)

  46. He’s a Ranger with a Purple Heart. He’s a hero.

    Paul Montagu (a1ba2a) — 9/8/2020 @ 2:58 pm

    He never made flag officer because he wasn’t a yes man. Gave up his career. He’s hero enough for my book.

    the more I think about Trump’s heavy use of lies and anonymous sources to bash Obama and other competitors, it is amusing to consider: we really don’t know if Trump said this stuff. Trump’s conduct towards those park ave vets selling out of kiosks up to Trump clearly wanting to screw with Mccain’s funeral, it’s just so easy to believe Trump called war dead ‘suckers’. If this were a democrat psychological operation, similar to how they got Trump to fire Parscale, that’s hilarious. Well deserved and hilarious.

    And wrong, of course, but that’s the world now, race to the bottom. You can ask Stormy about it.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  47. It’s a fact Paul and in the public record.

    NJRob (37860d)

  48. The claims are fake Paul. They are based on the President not wanting to go because he disparaged dead soldiers when he wasn’t able to go because the helicopter couldn’t travel in the weather.

    How come all those American generals managed to get there? How did all those other world leaders get there?

    Come on.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  49. It’s a fact Paul and in the public record.

    Please link to the fact in the public record.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  50. It’s weird that people who have surely heard Trump say “I like people who weren’t captured,” thus showing contempt for McCain precisely because he suffered for years as a POW, profess to find it literally incredible that he would ever say anything disrespectful about fallen or wounded soldiers.

    They also must have read about his telling a war widow that her dead husband “knew what he was signing up for.”

    They must also have seen plenty of evidence that Trump divides the world between winners (mostly himself) and losers (most everyone else), and that he scorns losers.

    But they ignore it all, and keep insisting that he is really compassionate and empathetic deep down.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  51. The left has gone off the rails…
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-left-secretly-preps-for-violence-after-election-day

    But the Transition Integrity Project noted that there would be immense pressure on Biden to fight it out if, for the third time in 20 years, the Democratic candidate won the popular vote but didn’t take office. In a simulation they ran, Team Biden “encouraged Western states, particularly California but also Oregon and Washington, and collectively known as ‘Cascadia,’ to secede from the Union” unless structural reforms were made. In exchange for Trump getting the presidency, for instance, Republicans would need to agree to abolish the Electoral College, give Puerto Rico and D.C. statehood, and divide California into five states for better Senate representation.

    They batsh!t insane… simply batsh!t.

    whembly (c30c83)

  52. First, the Transition Integrity Project is bipartisan, not “The Left”. You can read the actual paper instead of being hysterical. Hysterics are for after Trump loses and his Belarusian-like plea work on his numbskull true believers. That’s the batsh!t part.

    In the summer of 2020, TIP conducted a series of war-gaming exercises.[9] The scenarios[4][10][11] examined by TIP included:

    Game One: An ambiguous win by Biden. The first game investigated a scenario in which the outcome of the election remained unclear from election night and throughout gameplay.
    Game Two: Clear Biden Victory. The Trump Campaign team again attempted to federalize the National Guard to end further vote counting and called on supporters to turn out in large numbers. The Biden Campaign established a bipartisan transition team and mobilized supporters to ensure vote counting was completed thoroughly. In this scenario, Biden won outright in the Electoral College and the popular vote.
    Game Three: Clear Trump Win. The third scenario posited a comfortable Electoral College victory for President Trump — 286-252 — but also a significant popular vote win—52% – 47%–for former Vice President Biden.
    Game Four: Narrow Biden Win. The final scenario explored a narrow Biden win where he leads with less than 1% of the popular vote the day after the election, and is predicted to win 278 electoral votes.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  53. So… threatening to secede from the Union is bipartisan?

    The bat guano you say?

    whembly (c30c83)

  54. Dan Rather
    @DanRather

    Yesterday, I posted the text of Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address and some requested I read it. I am honored to oblige.
    __ _

    Stephen L. Miller
    @redsteeze

    What font was the text in?
    __ _

    harkin (c314b6)

  55. So… threatening to secede from the Union is bipartisan?

    Since the TIP didn’t propose that, yes that’s crazy.

    Also, you may remember a guy defending the confederacy seceding, you know the patriots. Maybe you remember the talk of Texas succeeding, those crazy libtards.

    Delegates for the Texas Republican Party debated adding secessionist language to the party’s platform.

    Although it was only 40% of Texan’s polled in 2016 that were for it.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  56. Lol ‘Bipartisan’

    Read ‘About the Transition Integrity Project’ in the link you provided – it’s pure Tee Dee Ess.
    _

    harkin (c314b6)

  57. Careful, there are people around here who still consider Vindman a hero.
    _

    harkin (c314b6) — 9/8/2020 @ 1:27 pm

    Obviously:

    Vindman completed the Infantry Officer Basic Course (IOBC) at Fort Benning in 1999 and was sent the next year to South Korea, where he led both infantry and anti-armor platoons.[4] In addition to overseas assignments to South Korea and Germany, Vindman is a combat veteran of the Iraq War, and he served in Iraq from September 2004 to September 2005.[3] In October 2004,[3] he sustained an injury from a roadside bomb in Iraq, for which he received a Purple Heart.[4] He was promoted to the rank of major in 2008,[13] and to lieutenant colonel in September 2015.[14]

    During his Army career, Vindman earned the Ranger Tab, Combat Infantryman Badge, Expert Infantryman Badge, and Parachutist Badge, as well as four Army Commendation Medals and two Defense Meritorious Service Medals.[3]

    […]

    Vindman’s awards and decorations include the Purple Heart, Defense Meritorious Service Medal with bronze oak leaf cluster (2nd award), Meritorious Service Medal, Army Commendation Medal with three oak leaf clusters (4th award), Army Achievement Medal with two oak leaf clusters (3rd award), National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Korea Defense Service Medal, Army Service Ribbon, Overseas Service Ribbon (4th award), Valorous Unit Award, Navy Unit Commendation, National Intelligence Meritorious Unit Citation, and Republic of Korea Presidential Unit Citation. He is a recipient of the Combat Infantryman Badge, Expert Infantryman Badge, Ranger Tab, Basic Parachutist Badge, the Presidential Service Badge, and Joint Chiefs of Staff Identification Badge.[41]

    His character was revealed further by his decision to testify against Trump in spite of knowing what would befall him as a result:

    “I want to emphasize to the committee that when I reported my concerns on July 10th relating to Ambassador Sondland and on July 25th relating to the president, I did so out of a sense of duty,” he told the House Intelligence Committee in November. “I privately reported my concerns in official channels to the proper authority in the chain of command. My intent was to raise these concerns because they had significant national security implications for our country. I never thought that I’d be sitting here testifying in front of this committee and the American public about my actions. When I reported my concerns, my only thought was to act properly and to carry out my duty.”

    Clearly, we have different definitions of “hero”. I’d be curious to know what your definition is.

    Dana (292df6)

  58. It’s a fact Paul and in the public record.

    NJRob (37860d) — 9/8/2020 @ 3:05 pm

    You now have the burden of proving to us that it is indeed, a fact.

    Dana (292df6)

  59. For the Trump defenders here: You, as well as the rest of us here, heard Trump clearly say about McCain:

    “He lost, so I never liked him as much after that, ‘cause I don’t like losers,” he said. Trump went on to dismiss McCain’s war service: “He’s not a war hero. He’s a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren’t captured.”

    He said that during a *conservative* forum in Iowa, and then later tweeted a similar comment in which he labeled McCain a “loser”.

    So, if he was willing to publicly make disparaging remarks about an immensely popular war hero and highly regarded politician, what makes you think he wouldn’t say even worse about unnamed, unknown fallen soldiers in a cemetery faraway in Europe and behind closed doors?

    Dana (292df6)

  60. @35. Kevin, half the Vietnam dead were killed on Nixon’s watch. The Big Dick knew the contents of the Pentagon Papers. He went after Ellsberg because of it which led to Watergate. Hell, The Big Dick tried to scuttle the LBJ peace talks though Chennault. Nixon could have declared victory and left on January 21, 1969. But no.

    He knew. They knew. The bastards knew, Kevin. And they sent tens of thousands to death and injury for nothing, wasting blood and treasure just to save “face.”
    ___________

    @36/@41. Nice try, Wilhelm. Only if you let Trump rub salt in your wounds. And he’s succeeding.

    “Klink, you boob!” – General Bulkhalter [Leon Askin] ‘Hogan’s Heroes’ CBS TV, 1965-1971

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  61. Dana, war heroes who willingly enter the political arena can be separated from those who don’t. I don’t think you can take Trump’s treatment of the former and extend it to an assumption of how he treats the latter.

    beer ‘n pretzels (109445)

  62. Here’s an account at the time of the incident.

    https://apnews.com/52462add34fd45ecb16319b564045d61

    Here’s the link with correspondence and FOIA account information showing the bad weather and limitations for altitude.

    https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2020/09/04/the-latest-garbage-hit-piece-on-trump-begins-to-fall-apart-as-real-evidence-emerges/

    Disregard facts as you see fit because they don’t fit your political agenda.

    P.S. already predict the next tactic as “it doesn’t say flight cancelled due to weather.

    Tiresome.

    NJRob (37860d)

  63. He knew. They knew. The bastards knew, Kevin. And they sent tens of thousands to death and injury for nothing, wasting blood and treasure just to save “face.”

    Cool story bro. Now, please relate that things happening 50 years later. I get that it’s a deflection, but shouldn’t there be some sort of relevance?

    @36/@41. Nice try, Wilhelm. Only if you let Trump rub salt in your wounds. And he’s succeeding.

    So, you are specifically confirming that you think he really said it, and you don’t care. Too bad Trump’s not plagiarizing, that would be unforgivable, denigrating veterans service, cool.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  64. Donald Trump is not Fred Rogers. We can all agree with that.

    Fred (45c8fb)

  65. Uhh…some attorney’s need to tell me if this is a thing. I know it’s a thing, but could it actually be a thing that happens? Is there any historical precedent for it?

    In a highly unusual legal maneuver, the Department of Justice moved on Tuesday to replace President Trump’s private lawyers and defend him against a defamation lawsuit brought in state court by the author E. Jean Carroll, who has accused him of raping her in a Manhattan department store in the 1990s.

    Lawyers for the Justice Department said in court papers that Mr. Trump was acting in his official capacity as president when he denied ever knowing Ms. Carroll.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  66. -‘+ies

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  67. I was just reading this, Klink:

    DOJ is allowed—indeed, it is *required*—to take over tort suits against federal officials for torts committed within the scope of their employment.

    But how is claiming that Carroll lied about a decades-old rape allegation within the scope of Trump’s employment *as President*?!?

    Dana (292df6)

  68. NJRob and beer ‘n pretzels,

    Would you be willing to concede that it is possible – I’m not even saying probable – but possible that Trump made the disparaging remarks (as reported in The Atlantic)?

    Dana (292df6)

  69. Yes Dana, it’s possible.

    Would you concede that it’s possible that sources lied about or misrepresented what Trump said?

    beer ‘n pretzels (fd065b)

  70. Barr corrupting the DOJ even more, Colonel Klink. He is using the law that protects federal officers from being sued in state court when they smash a moonshiner’s still, the corrupt pile of garbage:

    The DOJ cited the Westfall Act as its legal authority, particularly 28 U.S.C. § 2679(d)(2):

    Upon certification by the Attorney General that the defendant employee was acting within the scope of his office or employment at the time of the incident out of which the claim arose, any civil action or proceeding commenced upon such claim in a State court shall be removed without bond at any time before trial by the Attorney General to the district court of the United States for the district and division embracing the place in which the action or proceeding is pending.

    https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/doj-argues-trump-was-acting-within-the-scope-of-presidency-when-calling-e-jean-carrolls-rape-accusation-a-lie/

    nk (1d9030)

  71. The closest thing that I could find was the Clinton/Paula Jones lawsuit, as the SCOTUS has ruled, they are directly applicable. In that case the Clinton legal defense fund paid for private attorney’s, and his insurance company, and Hillary, paid Jones.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  72. nk,

    How would that apply given that Trump was a private citizen when the alleged incident occurred?

    Dana (292df6)

  73. I would have thought his lawyers could just throw this case in for free with the $60M the campaign has spent on lawsuits so far.

    The SCOTUS ruled in Vance, “duh, we said this the last time a president had to go to state court for a civil matter outside of the office.” and the state court then ruled, “like totally, duh.” I think I got the legal nuance right.

    I just don’t understand why “we the people” need to pay for Trump’s defense…other than all things that are good for Trump are doubtlessly good for all right thinking ‘Muricans. Woohoo Trump 2020 Make America Great Again This Time Not The Last Time Only He Can Fix It In A Short Amount Of Time Or Something…MAGATTNTLTOHCFIIASAOTOS!!!

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  74. Reuters
    @Reuters
    ·
    CORRECTION: D.C. police released bodycam footage of an officer who fatally shot a young Black man. We are deleting an earlier tweet that incorrectly said the officer was white
    __ _

    The Partyman
    @PartymanRandy

    “We apologize if our eagerness to foment a race war caused your business to be burned to the ground.”
    _ _

    _

    harkin (c314b6)

  75. It does not, Dana!!! (Please note the three exclamation marks.) Barr’s DOJ is behaving illegally ans corruptly. Unconstitutionally, too, in violation of the Tenth Amendment.

    nk (1d9030)

  76. bnp,

    You may have missed my comment upthread:

    bnp,

    We don’t actually know whether it’s false or true. We have different people (allegedly) in the room claiming something different. We also know that Trump could have made the comments when out of Bolton’s earshot. Based on what we historically know about Trump though, it is more than just possible that he made the comments. There are things about Trump that are undeniable: he has made disparaging remarks in the past about a decorated veteran and he has denigrated a Gold Star family without batting an eye. By those examples, along with a slew of other insults he has directed toward people from all walks of life, it is not unreasonable to believe that he would disparage fallen soldiers in France. I think Roger is right though: if Trump hadn’t showed us who he is over the past 3+ years, this story would have been written off, and not gained any traction. However, as it stands, it’s precisely because Trump has shown us his true colors that the story seems credible, and has gained traction.

    Dana (292df6)

  77. I know four individuals who knew John McCain personally. One who was in his class at the Naval Acadamy, two who served with him in Vietnam and one who had several interactions with him as a Senator. While acknowledging he was a hero, there were unanimous in their opinion that he was a complete jerk as a human being for a variety of reasons. (Although they used more colorful terms than jerk.) The only reason I will mention here is how he treated his first wife. It is for these reasons that I refused to vote for McCain for president. I wrote in someone who wasn’t on the ballot. It is entirely possible to be a hero AND a jerk.

    1DaveMac (b2b831)

  78. Liberals have to be dizzy. Bolton has gone from hated to venerated back to despised.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  79. Sure it’s possible Dana.

    Would you concede it’s possible that it is just a left wing hit piece similar to the type the media has done to Republican candidates for most, if not all, of your lifetime?

    NJRob (37860d)

  80. But E. Jean is not suing him for the rape. She is suing him for denying the rape happened. “He called the lady a liar!” He was President then.

    nk (1d9030)

  81. Thank you for clarifying that, nk, and confirming what we have long-known about Trump’s ‘best and brightest’ choices: They usually end up revealing themselves to be partisan servants of Trump or corrupt.

    Dana (292df6)

  82. up next more re-runs from the 2016 russian hoax

    mg (8cbc69)

  83. I still don’t want to pay for this, he can afford it with all the money he’s skimming from the campaign, and us, for everything else. If you contribute to his campaign, you know what you’re getting. I guess that’s the point, never pay what you owe with your own money, that’s what the suckers (taxpayers) are for.

    Heck, even congress passed a law that they had to pay for this kind of crap themselves, but that was way back in 2018. A different time.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  84. Nixon bringing china into the mix was a colossal disaster. Should’ve built all our factories in Mexico, oh and they happen to believe in God. Unlike the chicoms.

    mg (8cbc69)

  85. I know four individuals who knew John McCain personally. One who was in his class at the Naval Acadamy, two who served with him in Vietnam and one who had several interactions with him as a Senator. While acknowledging he was a hero, there were unanimous in their opinion that he was a complete jerk as a human being for a variety of reasons. (Although they used more colorful terms than jerk.) The only reason I will mention here is how he treated his first wife. It is for these reasons that I refused to vote for McCain for president. I wrote in someone who wasn’t on the ballot. It is entirely possible to be a hero AND a jerk.

    1DaveMac (b2b831) — 9/8/2020 @ 5:03 pm

    He’s dead and he survived years of torture. What purpose is there in smearing a dead man? Other than agreeing with Trump’s tasteless need to keep bashing the guy, what’s your point?

    Also, if I defined you by your worst moment in your marriage I’m sure that wouldn’t be very fair. think about it. The fact that Trump wants to drag you down to the bottom doesn’t obligate you to defend him. the dude is dead

    Dustin (1ea540)

  86. It is entirely possible to be a hero AND a jerk.

    Is that worse than someone who’s a jerk and quite unheroic? For example, Donald Trump.

    I was never a fan of McCain, but I have even lower regard for someone who disparaged him for having been a POW, and for having lost an election.

    Donald Trump has a remarkable ability to make a lot of people I didn’t especially like look a lot better in comparison.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  87. Dana, war heroes who willingly enter the political arena can be separated from those who don’t. I don’t think you can take Trump’s treatment of the former and extend it to an assumption of how he treats the latter.

    beer ‘n pretzels (109445) — 9/8/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    And war heroes who both do and do not enter politics can be distinguished from draft dodgers who disrespect them.

    Dustin (1ea540)

  88. I’ll say the same regarding Trump’s mockery of a reporter’s disability. I may not agree with that reporter on very much, but Trump’s mockery of his physical impairment was vile. And the eagerness of the Trumpistas to explain it away was shameful.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  89. The only reason I will mention here is how he treated his first wife. It is for these reasons that I refused to vote for McCain for president.

    Trumper very concerned about the sanctity of marriage…

    Did Trump’s rape of his first wife, multiple divorces, serial infidelity and vulgar disparagement of women disqualify you from voting for him?

    (McCain was remorseful about the shabby way he treated his first wife, and frankly admitted his fault. Trump, on the other hand, believes he is without sin…)

    Dave (1bb933)

  90. Well, besides the money, there’s the forum shopping, vexation, and delay. Apparently, state discovery proceedings are not friendly to him. He faces a deposition and giving a DNA sample. His new Roy Cohn (that would be Barr) is hoping he’ll get more defendant-friendly treatment from a federal judge. Moreover, the case starts again from the beginning.

    I would deny the transfer because Trump waited so long to make it, but I don’t know whether it is an ironclad Westfall Act requirement that the application for transfer be made at the first instance or before the state court has made any other than jurisdictional rulings on the case.

    nk (1d9030)

  91. I know four individuals who knew John McCain personally. One who was in his class at the Naval Acadamy, two who served with him in Vietnam and one who had several interactions with him as a Senator. While acknowledging he was a hero, there were unanimous in their opinion that he was a complete jerk as a human being for a variety of reasons. (Although they used more colorful terms than jerk.) The only reason I will mention here is how he treated his first wife. It is for these reasons that I refused to vote for McCain for president. I wrote in someone who wasn’t on the ballot. It is entirely possible to be a hero AND a jerk.

    1DaveMac (b2b831) — 9/8/2020 @ 5:03 pm

    If these things bothered you so much about McCain that you couldn’t vote for him, then I’m sure the latter bothered you so much about Trump – who is not a hero and is most definitely a jerk – that you couldn’t vote for him either.

    I can’t see rendering harsh judgment on McCain, given what he went suffered through, and survived. I think admiration for serving his country, and mercy toward him in the aftermath is my preferred avenue of regard.

    Dana (292df6)

  92. I don’t think you can take Trump’s treatment of the former and extend it to an assumption of how he treats the latter.

    I make assumptions about how Trump treats people in private based on how he generally behaves in public. It’s irrational to assume he’s actually better in private.

    And word does get out. For example, when a group of veterans met with him to discuss some concerns, Trump wasted most of their time by going around trying to find someone who would confirm a historical fallacy he had stated, on which he had been corrected — and he couldn’t stand that.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  93. Trumper very concerned about the sanctity of marriage…

    Trump gets special rules. You’re just a hater if you judge him by the same standards that Trumpers apply to others.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  94. The word “hero” is overused. But by any measure, McCain did his duty and did it honorably. What did Cadet Bone Spurs do?

    As for McCain’s divorce, I don’t know how many marriages would survive four-and-a-half years in the Hanoi Hilton, and neither do all the Trumpkin hypocrites.

    nk (1d9030)

  95. Dana, war heroes who willingly enter the political arena can be separated from those who don’t. I don’t think you can take Trump’s treatment of the former and extend it to an assumption of how he treats the latter.

    beer ‘n pretzels (109445) — 9/8/2020 @ 4:10 pm

    Oh, I missed this. Well, as I stated upthread:

    if he was willing to publicly make disparaging remarks about an immensely popular war hero and highly regarded politician, what makes you think he wouldn’t say even worse about unnamed, unknown fallen soldiers in a cemetery faraway in Europe and behind closed doors?

    I know how he treats people publicly. He has shown me. Repeatedly. Thus, I can easily infer how he treats them in private. People are generally on their best when in public, and let it all hang out in private. It’s why there is usually some disparity in how a person behaves at work and at home. Trump is no different. His public treatment of people is often disgraceful. Thus we have a glimpse of how he would treat them in private.

    For most people, how we treat others is generally rooted in respect, politeness, and courtesy. With Trump, that just hasn’t been the case. Thus I don’t agree that you can’t think that Trump treat war heroes one way and then treat them differntly if they continue to serve their country via politics.

    Dana (292df6)

  96. This:

    As for McCain’s divorce, I don’t know how many marriages would survive four-and-a-half years in the Hanoi Hilton, and neither do all the Trumpkin hypocrites.

    Surely life was a living hell for both Mr. and Mrs. McCain in the aftermath of the Hanoi Hilton. How could it not be? And who would render judgment against him for not handling that aftermath better? That he later expressed regret about how he treat his first wife and owned it himself revealed even more about the character of the man.

    Dana (292df6)

  97. Dana, I did not tell you the whole story. His fellow shipmates we’re willing to render harsh judgement for a reason. You are in no position to judge.

    1DaveMac (b2b831)

  98. I just think stuff like that happens. I wish I could say I’ve never screwed up, but I also don’t trust anybody who hasn’t had a few events where life kicked their ass. It’s always bugged me that people try to determine if someone is on their side or not, and then really get zealous in describing the salacious scandal of their lives.

    There’s a point where this stuff is OK. Hillary throwing the lamp at Bill maybe. Trump’s physical abuse of Ivana probably. But Laura Bush’s manslaughter? Is that really necessary? Both W and Obama were seemingly presidential family men. We all know that this is partially a fiction. People aren’t perfect. But this is a really good fiction. It helps us describe our differences in terms of political issues.

    And again, the dude is dead. It’s just weird to drag him through the mud.

    On the other hand, it’s also just another damn politician we’re running our mouths defending, being offended over. Honestly compared to getting your arms broken in a mud prison cell I don’t think it matters that Trump is saying mean stuff. I guess that’s the only remedy. As soon as these comments do not get the attention, there will be no reason to say them. All this crap is calculated.

    Dustin (1ea540)

  99. Dana, I did not tell you the whole story. His fellow shipmates we’re willing to render harsh judgement for a reason. You are in no position to judge.

    1DaveMac (b2b831) — 9/8/2020 @ 6:00 pm

    no one has ever accused john mccain of being a kind, gentle, humble team player. It’s cool that you have all this secret knowledge of what a horrible dude Mccain was, but what is your point? Is Mccain on the ballot this year?

    Dustin (1ea540)

  100. In other related news about dead senators – Ted Kennedy has been sober for 10 years.

    mg (8cbc69)

  101. Ted Kennedy, really ahead of his time now that I think about it. That guy was one choice away from president.

    Dustin (1ea540)

  102. Off-topic, but as if the virus, the economic crash, the police brutality, the protests, the white supremacists and the election weren’t enough, now we have to deal with this:

    ‘Keeping Up With the Kardashians’ Ending After 20 Seasons on E!

    Dave (1bb933)

  103. Trump is a flowing stream of sewage. You can’t stay focused on one piece of flotsam for long because it floats by and another one comes along. And another. And another. And another. It’s in a clear stream of otherwise clean water that a solitary piece of rot is incongruous and holds your attention and recollection.

    nk (1d9030)

  104. So, if he was willing to publicly make disparaging remarks about an immensely popular war hero and highly regarded politician.

    This is what set me off. Just call McCain a hero and leave it at that. It’s all he deserves.

    1DaveMac (b2b831)

  105. Dana, I answered your question @69 directly.

    I didn’t see a direct answer to my question @70, but will assume from your responses that the answer is no.

    beer ‘n pretzels (fd065b)

  106. I responded at 77, bnp.

    Dana (292df6)

  107. Dana, I did not tell you the whole story. His fellow shipmates we’re willing to render harsh judgement for a reason. You are in no position to judge.

    1DaveMac (b2b831) — 9/8/2020 @ 6:00 pm

    Ok then. You may be privy to more detailed information about McCain. That’s fine. However, I have as much right to judge an elected official who worked for the American people as much as anyone else. You, frankly, have no right to tell me I’m in no position to judge. That’s what voters do every single time they vote. That is our responsibility. And all we can go on is what is made public and available to us via the media, those who have personal and reliable knowledge of the individual, and the individual theselves.

    So, if he was willing to publicly make disparaging remarks about an immensely popular war hero and highly regarded politician.

    This is what set me off. Just call McCain a hero and leave it at that. It’s all he deserves.

    1DaveMac (b2b831) — 9/8/2020 @ 6:22 pm

    But the fact of the matter is that Trump did disparage an immensely popular war hero, and highly-regarded politician (as evidenced by serving 2 terms in the House, and was re-elected 5 times when in the Senate. And those were by wide margins.) Those are the facts.

    Dana (292df6)

  108. @64. Story? Truth. Deflection? Deal w/it. Biden, Romney, Cheney, Gingrich, Bill Clinton, Trump, even Hillary Rodham Clinton… and yes, Trump… the list goes on and on of those who ‘worked the system’ to avoid a sucker war, confirmed by the ‘Pentagon Papers’.

    LBJ, McNamara, Nixon… who expaned the war into Laos and Cambodia… They knew.

    Bastards all. You wanna start tearing down ‘statues’–start with them.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  109. If he was really that popular, he would have won the presidency. The press turned on him with vicious abandon. They sure respected him didn’t they?

    1DaveMac (b2b831)

  110. 14. Radegunda (e1ea47) — 9/8/2020 @ 12:54 pm

    Whether or not certain people heard Trump say certain things at a specific time, there are good reasons why so many people find it plausible that Trump has said such things at one time or another.

    The people who made up that story thought it would sound plauaible for Trump to say that as an excuse not to visit.

    But the story is fundamentaly a lie because it wasn’t Trump that came up with the idea of cancelling the visit, but General Kelly. Or maybe it was the same the “sources” who told the Atlantic who made a problem of the weather with the idea of lying about Trump’s reasons for cancelling the visit.

    So anyway because it wasn’t Trump;s idea not to go, Trump didn’t need to make an excuse for not visiting the cemetery. And if he did feel such a need he would have said it in public and not in private. It;s te general public that would have needed an excuse. Bt Trump would not have been so stupid so asa to give that kind of excuse.

    The real question is why some Democratic political consultants thought this would be such a good hit piece. They must think everybody is an idiot, and moved by the simplest things.

    I think we’re supposed to believe that Trump actually didn’t lie, but revealed his true feelings.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  111. If he was really that popular, he would have won the presidency. The press turned on him with vicious abandon. They sure respected him didn’t they?

    That McCain didn’t win, did not mean that he wasn’t popular. After all, if hadn’t been popular, he wouldn’t have won the Republican Party nomination in 2008. It just so happens that the guy he was running against was even more popular. Moreover, the press was more focused on crucifying Palin, and writing smear stories about McCain having an affair than doing honest reporting.

    Dana (292df6)

  112. At the tone, the year will be 2020. Ding!

    nk (1d9030)

  113. And mccain brought the nails, the jones memo attests to that. Schmidt and wallace were just water carriers in that endeavour.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  114. 52.

    In a simulation they ran, Team Biden “encouraged Western states, particularly California but also Oregon and Washington, and collectively known as ‘Cascadia,’ to secede from the Union” unless structural reforms were made

    his is just plain ridiculous.

    I think maybe Team Biden just wanted to make the simulation interesting. John Podesta, who was playing Biden, said that “my party wouldn’t allow me to concede,” in one of the scenarios.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  115. 119, LBJ, McNamara, and Nixon don’t have any statues, only portraits.

    Except maybe at a presidential library or in a wax museum.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  116. Trump is a flowing stream of sewage.

    Trump won’t make it onto Mt. Rushmore, but I think it’s our solemn duty to have every. single. sewage treatment plant in the country renamed for him.

    In fact, we could even retire the archaic, low-energy term “sewage treatment plant” in favor of the more upscale and evocative “Trump Tower”.

    Dave (1bb933)

  117. His fellow shipmates we’re willing to render harsh judgement for a reason.

    Whatever those reasons might be, they are certainly not the reasons for Trump’s contempt. There is no evidence that he has anything against “jerks” per se.

    Disparaging someone for having been tortured as a POW is vile, regardless of that person’s flaws.
    Mocking someone for a physical impairment is vile, regardless of what that reporter’s politics might be.

    Trump apparently thinks it’s manly to tear people down for weaknesses they have not chosen and cannot repair. Maybe he doesn’t have the moral capacity to know better. What bothers me more is the loyalists who think they’re on the side of virtue by defending him no matter what.

    Radegunda (e1ea47)

  118. Lol, Dave!!

    Perhaps Mt. Flushmore??

    Dana (292df6)

  119. Whatever those reasons might be, they are certainly not the reasons for Trump’s contempt.

    True. I doubt Trump knows that sort of detail of McCain’s life. And further, if McCain was the meanest sort of jerk there is, wouldn’t Trump see that as admirable, given his adoration of Putin, Kim Jong, etc?

    Dana (292df6)

  120. And further, if McCain was the meanest sort of jerk there is, wouldn’t Trump see that as admirable, given his adoration of Putin, Kim Jong, etc?

    Only if McCain wrote him beautiful letters.

    Dave (1bb933)

  121. Hiden Biden looks as though he’s already in a wax museum.

    mg (8cbc69)

  122. It’s a fact Paul and in the public record.

    Noted, you still don’t understand the difference between fact and opinion, Rob. What you have are denials that Trump disparaged military members, “but you’ll continue to believe what you want to because you feel it’s true.” You really should take your own counsel.
    P.S. I don’t read websites like RedState that permanently bam-sticked yours truly.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  123. Dana, war heroes who willingly enter the political arena can be separated from those who don’t.

    Vindman was subpoenaed by the House to appear, beer, and he fulfilled what he believed was his legal obligation, an obligation every other person under subpoena should have honored. He didn’t ask to go there, and he’s a hero because he stood up to the most powerful man on earth, knowing his character and career was going to get raked over the coals by his loyal sycophants.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  124. Of course he did, he put the whole thing in motion, ciamarella was the mcguffin, billions of dollars were lost from the privat bank whose owner also controls burisma

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  125. Narciso, you think Vindman acted to help Burisma and wasn’t just telling the truth?

    Or are you just stringing a bunch of stuff together so the sheeple see through the illuminati?

    Dustin (1ea540)

  126. Hiden Biden looks as though he’s already in a wax museum.

    Reporter Laughs Out Loud as Joe Biden Mocks Trump for Infamous ‘Stumble’ Down Ramp

    Former Vice President and current Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden got a big laugh from a local reporter when he zinged President Donald Trump over the now-infamous incident in which Trump struggled to make his way down a ramp at the West Point commencement.

    Biden sat for a trio of local interviews in Pennsylvania to start the week, including Harrisburg’s WHTM ABC27. The former VP got a big laugh from interviewer Dennis Owens as the interview wound down, and Owens asked about the Trump campaign’s attacks on Biden’s fitness.

    “The Trump campaign’s ads have suggested you’ve lost a step or two. What’s your response to that?” Owens asked.

    With a smile evident even behind a coronavirus mask, Biden replied “Look at how he steps and look at how I step.”

    Owens let out a laugh as Biden continued, “Watch how I run up ramps and he stumbles down ramps. Okay? Come on.”

    Okay? Come on.

    Dave (1bb933)

  127. @116. LBJ, McNamara, and Nixon don’t have any statues, only portraits.

    LBJ and Nixon certainly do; several. Google ’em. Then alert pigeons.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  128. Trump has stuck up for two servicemen:
    Mike Flynn, a gonnif.
    Eddie Gallaghers, a psychopath.
    Anybody know any more?

    He has disparaged viciously:
    Bowe Bergdahl
    John McCain
    Jim Matthis
    John Kelly
    Alexander Vindman
    And the list can go on all night.

    Our tranny tatters are not as dumb as I think they are. They know if a Commander in Chief respects them and is on their side. More important, they know if it’s a guy they want to share a share a foxhole with. You think that there is one of them who will share a foxhole with Trump because he appointed Gorsuch to the Supreme Court?

    nk (1d9030)

  129. So called reality tv came in through the real world which was only worth the season rachel campos was on, and even then it wS exceedingly preachy.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  130. Tenet was good but the sound design was bonkers nolan should not dial to eleven all the time

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  131. he stood up for the russian soldiers who attacked failmerica in 2016 mr nk

    Dave (1bb933)

  132. Yeah, Trump’s a winner. What a moron.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  133. Vindman was subpoenaed by the House to appear, beer, and he fulfilled what he believed was his legal obligation, an obligation every other person under subpoena should have honored. He didn’t ask to go there…

    Montagu, you make it sound like his name was drawn randomly out of a hat.

    He listened in on Trump’s conversations and was displeased with what was said, and he reported his concerns at that time to the NSC lead attorney. He could’ve done what many do when they hear something they don’t like that the president says to a foreign official: do a reality check on whether he or the president was elected to guide foreign policy, and act accordingly. He chose something else.

    beer ‘n pretzels (1e5b3c)

  134. He chose something else.

    He chose the rule of law.

    Dave (1bb933)

  135. Those words you are using…zelensky wouldnt have been elected without privat bank collapsing. 6 billion is kind of a big deal, (thafs only a 1/5 of the loan biden hung over poroshenko.)

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  136. Yeah, what a sucker! Vindman, I mean. First he enlists and goes off to fight a war where he could have gotten killed and gets wounded. Then he reveals that the President of the United States is selling military aid for dirt on his potential political opponent, and gets his career torpedoed for it. What a loser! He could have been somebody! He could have been a Trump flunky! Instead of what he is now. Not a Trump flunky. Loser!

    nk (1d9030)

  137. Of course you don’t Paul. Of course you don’t.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  138. The military chiefs wont defend a more immediate threat to the lives and property of millions of americans
    ,

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  139. Military officer’s oath: “I ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

    A military officer owes his loyalty and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States first, before all else, not to the President. And in taking the steps he took, he knew his career was over. There is no way it wouldn’t have been, so he risked his livelihood, his professional life, to do what he thought was the right thing. Think he did the right thing, or the wrong, it takes guts to stand up to the most powerful man in the world in order to do what you think is right.

    Nic (896fdf)

  140. https://outline.com/XyWLnH

    A Spectator article that does a good job outlining the situation and quoting the relevant sources that put their names on the record.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  141. But now he, Vindman I mean, might wise up and go out and inherit some money and pay some hooker who reminds him of his daughter $175,000 to spank him with a Forbes magazine. Always look for the silver lining, Mr. Nic, always look for the silver lining.

    nk (1d9030)

  142. Boot Licker’s Pledge

    I do solemnly swear to recognize that Trump is in charge and if I observe something I believe is unethical I will do a reality check, remember Trump is in charge, I’m not a winner, he is, and I should then act accordingly.

    Dustin (1ea540)

  143. They have no shame, rob. Its as simple as that, treason is 150billion given to the revolutionary guard who have beem at war with us for 40 years.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  144. He could’ve done what many do when they hear something they don’t like that the president says to a foreign official: do a reality check on whether he or the president was elected to guide foreign policy, and act accordingly.

    Vindman didn’t complain about Trump’s foreign policy, his complaint was that Trump broke the law, and this president did swear an oath to execute the Office of the President, as did Vindman. Enlisting a foreign government to help you take down your chief political rival is a felony under the US Code.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  145. That’s inspiring, Nic. His concerns were aired, and a judgment rendered. I guess Trump should speak with solemn reverence toward someone who tried to boot him from office. This has no bearing on how he refers to military members who stay out of politics, which was the point.

    beer ‘n pretzels (1e5b3c)

  146. If anyone read the New York Times article I linked on an earlier thread (the DeJoy campaign finance corruption post), it detailed why the Trump campaign is cash-strapped, due to wasteful spending over the years before this election cycle began. One of the expenses noted was for thousands of dollars spent on special pouches that block frequencies everyone who met with Trump in private had to keep the cell phones in, because he didn’t want his comments recorded.

    In one way, that’s smart, because you never know who’s listening these days. In another way, it suggests a strange (or not-so-strange) level of paranoia. He wants to be able to speak freely, which is understandable, but Trump does not want his comments made public, which is more understandable, because they are most likely rude, crude, lewd, defamatory, and derogatory. But then we get that on TV and Twitter every day, so . . .

    It would explain why there are no audio recordings of Trump calling fallen and wounded veterans suckers and losers. I for one have no doubt that is how he thinks and speaks about our brave service members, who made the ultimate sacrifice serving and protecting this great country.

    Bolton’s “I didn’t hear him say it, but he might have said it later” is transparent nonsense. It’s like saying, “I’m a good Republican. Buy my book, in which I state my disdain for Trump.”

    On a finer point of journalism, the sources who did hear him say it, are not really “anonymous.” They are known to the journalist. They came forward and requested anonymity, for any one of a number of reasons. But a highly respected journalist like Goldberg is not about to report on their comments without verification, usually two or three other sources. That multiple other news agencies, including Fox News, have confirmed the story only adds credibility to the Atlantic’s reporting.

    Of course, in an ideal world, it would be better if these anonymous sources came forward, but we don’t live in an ideal world. The sources requested anonymity for a reason–fear of job loss, retribution, ostracization, death threats, the Twitter mob–and the journalist has to respect that.

    The Trump cult can go off on their “journalists make up anonymous sources all the time, it’s all fake news!” rant now. Sure, a few reporters do make up anonymous sources and write fake news to advance their agenda or ideology, but they don’t last very long and are ridiculed afterward.

    One does not become the distinguished editor-in-chief of a major publication like The Atlantic by making up sources and writing fake news. Look at Dan Rather now, he’s a joke. And he was an anchor on a major television network! Do you really think Goldberg wants to go out like that? I don’t. The man has too much respect for himself and his profession to throw away his credibility. I don’t care about his politics–we would probably agree on more issues than we disagree on, but that’s just part of being human. I care about his character, and from what I’ve read he is a man of character.

    Trump has no character. He is a caricature. His cultists are the real losers and suckers. None of them would have the freedom they enjoy without the sacrifices made by the brave men and women who fought, were wounded and died for the Constitution of these United States. I have nothing but respect for them. In fact, whenever I meet a service member or veteran, a police officer, a deputy or sheriff, a Texas Ranger, I always say to them, “Most of us appreciate your service.”

    Trump does not. They’re just props for him in his desperate and delusional law and order campaign. What a shame it is that he is currently Commander in Chief. If he thinks he can order the military to wage war on American citizens protesting because he lost and refused to leave office, he is sadly mistaken. The military code requires service members to not obey an unlawful order.

    To my mind, the Commander in Chief is subject to the military code of justice, even if he is a civilian. If Trump imagines he has problems with liberal judges, wait till he gets hauled before a JAG court. We’re talking Leavenworth here. It is in Kansas, but he won’t be in Kansas anymore.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  147. @145 In which you continue to fail to understand what treason is and instead define it as “people who disagree with my politics.” People disagreeing with your politics is not treason, it’s democracy.

    Nic (896fdf)

  148. Enlisting a foreign government to help you take down your chief political rival is a felony under the US Code.

    United States v. FusionGPS

    beer ‘n pretzels (91a694)

  149. And furthermore it seems every institution has allegiance to a maoist terrorist. Who wants to demoliah this country piece by piece as she couldnt do in 1984.

    Yes a ransom payoff to an actual enemy regime which has employed proxies from pakiatan to north africa thats a big deal.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  150. You can add the billions the clintons gifted the kim dynast. Negotiated by the same person. One doth not recall decatur ‘millions for defense, not one cent for tribute’

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  151. As it turns putin had a very tangential relation to the steele dossier, but the effect was no difference.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  152. Of course you don’t Paul. Of course you don’t.

    I already know you have trouble distinguishing opinions from facts, but you also revealed how little you understand about how journalism works.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  153. The left and not an insignificant element of the right intelligentsia think the police are the enemy, thats what 50 years of mind arson have devolved to thats derrick bell incapsulated thats crt.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  154. @147 It is, in fact, inspiring. Do you have any idea how rare it was, especially in the beginning for a military officer to swear loyalty to anything other than the current leader of the country? In the UK, Canada, and Australia they still swear to the queen. A lot of countries simply swear to defend their country against enemies. Those that swear to their founding documents generally use our oath as their example (India, frex). Our officers have a sworn obligation to the rule of law in the country itself, not any one person.

    Trump, if he were smart, should only have said that Vindman had concerns and followed procedures, but that Trump disagreed with his concerns and believe himself to be operating within the legal purview of the Presidency and left it at that. Instead he had, as per his usual performance, a public hissy-fit.

    @150 Fusion GPS isn’t a foreign government, it’s a private research firm. It’s owned by Americans.

    Nic (896fdf)

  155. @155 You have a very real objection to the police state in Cuba, why is it hard to see that people might be concerned about the power of the police in the US?

    Nic (896fdf)

  156. Its allegiance are to the russian oligarcha that pay them, not to mention the iranian puppet that glen simpson put in power in the emirates.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  157. Goldberg thinks the castro regime is just neat, its not israel is not worth defendinf against an existential threat.
    Obama also rewarded the castro regime as well. Same jackass ben rhodes ran both cons.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  158. @158 Work for hire is what we do in the US, it’s part of capitalism. For example, law firms work for companies and people, a variety of companies and people, their loyalty is not to any single entity, their services are purchased for a particular case. Pretty much all work for hire business are the same, from brothels to law firms to K-street lobbyists, to your own home inspector when you purchase a house, or the yard guy you might hire to do your lawn.

    @159 That’s not what I asked. You have serious and real objections to the police state in Cuba, why is it hard to see why people might be concerned about the power of the police in the US?

    Nic (896fdf)

  159. Fusion works for planned parenthood for theranos fraud shop it persecutes the biteks in guatemaLa. It is the devils advocate along with the podestas and mercury, oddly they arent touched.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  160. They have no shame, rob. Its as simple as that, treason is 150billion given to the revolutionary guard who have beem at war with us for 40 years.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5) — 9/8/2020 @ 10:13 pm

    I know narciso. I know. Still sad and disturbing.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  161. I already know you have trouble distinguishing opinions from facts, but you also revealed how little you understand about how journalism works.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e) — 9/8/2020 @ 10:37 pm

    You certainly have your Duranty and Rather down.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  162. They have a skill at seing whats not there, and a corresponding one to ignoring what is.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  163. The murder of osvaldo paya made no differrnce to the obama administration in their dealings with the regime.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  164. You certainly have your Duranty and Rather down.

    Now you’re just lying, Rob. I already mentioned upthread that Rather relied on forged documents. I have no idea where your Duranty nonsense comes from.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  165. Goldberg didnt even bother. What can i say ghe knows his marks (actually he pre iraq war reporting was very good, unlike the unnuendo he ladeled here)

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  166. @161 Work for hire. Law firms work for murderers and rapists and companies that pollute the ground water so much that women miscarry their pregnancies and people die of cancer before they are 40. Public relations firms do the same. It’s capitalism.

    @165. Ordinary people, ordinary Americans, not the Obama administration or some mythical Liberal boogie men, regular ordinary Americans, car mechanics, cashiers, small business owners, teachers, nurses, home care workers have concerns about the power law enforcement wields. Just like the concerns you have over the police state in Cuba, but you vilify them for those same concerns here in the US.

    Nic (896fdf)

  167. I need no convincing of what kind of person Donald J. Trump is because I have seen what is on the record. The word of four “anonymous sources” means less than nothing to me.

    Gryph (f63000)

  168. @169. Gryph, I’m not as aggressive about the anonymous sources part, but this really doesn’t change anything. The fact that this is within Trump’s character is already priced in.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  169. They are not anonymous to the Atlantic. Trump’s character is the reason they are anonymous to the public. Should Atlantic reveal their identities, Trump will go on Twitter and incite his mouth-breathers to go after them. And everybody knows it.

    nk (1d9030)

  170. 170. Yup. It is. I absolutely agree with that. Hence, I don’t think it makes any sense for bloggers (such as Patterico) to hold this up as an example of, “See! See! Trump’s an awful human being!” If you didn’t see that before, anonymous sources aren’t going to change your mind now.

    Gryph (f63000)

  171. 171. They aren’t anonymous to the Atlantic, assuming that it is even a true story to begin with. I have my doubts, but I can’t say one way or the other that it is or isn’t true. Given the character of The Atlantic’s editorial staff (which is again a matter of public record), it is absolutely possible that these “anonymous sources” could themselves be a bunch of bunk. It’s just too convenient for a two-year-old “October surprise.

    Gryph (f63000)

  172. @ Gryph 172

    I don’t think he’s trying to persuade anyone.

    But my point is more general. If the 4 people referenced in the article come forward it’s not going to change many minds. I think it would just move from “we don’t believe anonymous sources” to “We don’t care that he said this because….”

    Time123 (f5cf77)

  173. 174. I’ll be blunt with you, Time. I don’t think they’ll come forward because I believe they don’t exist. And in no way, shape, or form should this be construed as giving Trump the benefit of the doubt.

    Gryph (f63000)

  174. I think Gryph’s theory is reasonable. No real reason to trust anonymous reports. The fact that these reports match so well with what Trump is like just means it’s a very smart attack.

    In fact, cynically, it’s perfect. Instead of an attack on something objective in the economy or performance or something Trump can just ignore, this is an attack on his patriotism that is emotionally compelling and personal. Trump cannot avoid responding, and that’s what gets the news.

    I personally believe the claims because all those other leaders did make it to the cemetery, but you never know if things are exaggerated.

    Regardless, debating if John Mccain’s military service was good enough for Trump fans is always amusing.

    Dustin (ff4c87)

  175. I read something this morning that made me almost fall out of my chair:

    Norwegian Official Nominates Trump For Nobel Peace Prize, Takes Shot At Obama

    Christian Tybring-Gjedde, a member of the Norwegian Parliament, has nominated President Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize after the administration helped facilitate a peace deal between Israel and the United Arab Emirates (UAE).

    “For his merit, I think he has done more trying to create peace between nations than most other Peace Prize nominees,” Tybring-Gjedde, who also serves as chairman of the Norwegian delegation to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, told Fox News. “I’m not a big Trump supporter. The committee should look at the facts and judge him on the facts – not on the way he behaves sometimes. The people who have received the Peace Prize in recent years have done much less than Donald Trump. For example, Barack Obama did nothing.”

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/breaking-norwegian-official-nominates-trump-for-nobel-peace-prize-takes-shot-at-obama

    I have to give the man credit for his honesty. He clearly finds Trump distasteful, but acknolwedges that he accomplished something significant for world peace.

    Now wouldn’t this be fun. If you want to see a bunch of heads explode, contemplate Trump getting the Nobel Peace Prize.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  176. they can’t help themselves,

    https://thefederalist.com/2020/09/09/atlantic-reporter-falsely-claims-trump-campaign-mocked-biden-at-beaus-grave/

    why we give obama any shadow of the doubt, for what he has inflicted on this country, and has continued to do, is rather striking, he is an evil man, there was never any good in him by his acts and his words, what he did to general mcrystal, using that punk hastings, and then petraeus using his other flunky jeh johnson, who leaked a conjured up investigation, so he could corrupt the dhs, drive out phil haney,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  177. Yeah, I don’t know why Dana keeps posting stuff that Gryph already knows and does not believe anyway.

    Dana, could you please post things that Gryph does not already know and will believe? Like, I dunno ….

    Gryph, how up to date are you on sub-atomic physics?

    nk (1d9030)

  178. mccain proved his low character, throwing his maimed wife under the bus, enabling the unconstitutional suppression of liberty, through campaign finance reform, alternately groveling before qaddafi, then calling ‘off with his head’ using al queda operatives, the ones who would later besiege and suffocate ambassador stevens, he did much the same with the syrian rebels, that ransomed americans like trading to islamic state, we will leave out how his armed services committee was deaf to the claims of the va,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  179. 179. My criticism isn’t of Dana, it’s of Pat. Anyhow, if you think there really is any value in blogging about “four unnamed sources,” WTF-ever…

    Gryph (f63000)

  180. mccain proved his low character, throwing his maimed wife under the bus

    Nah. He screwed up I agree but it is too lazy to judge people like that. As some have mentioned, he came back from a very bad deal, made mistakes, took responsibility for them.

    He was a lifelong politician so by all means no need to regard him well. He has a ship named after him so it’s not like he didn’t get sufficient credit. But this salacious scandal thing partisans do is really needless. How do we compare whoremongers and frauds like Trump with people who made more understandable mistakes?

    Dustin (ff4c87)

  181. Norwegian Official Nominates Trump For Nobel Peace Prize, Takes Shot At Obama

    Ha, ha, ha! Thousands of people have already “nominated” thousands of other people for the Nobel Peace Prize. All the professors here can do it.

    According to the statutes of the Nobel Foundation, a nomination is considered valid if it is submitted by a person who falls within one of the following categories:Members of national assemblies and national governments (cabinet members/ministers) of sovereign states as well as current heads of states
    Members of The International Court of Justice in The Hague and The Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague
    Members of l’Institut de Droit International
    Members of the international board of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom
    University professors, professors emeriti and associate professors of history, social sciences, law, philosophy, theology, and religion; university rectors and university directors (or their equivalents); directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes
    Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
    Members of the main board of directors or its equivalent of organizations that have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
    Current and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee (proposals by current members of the Committee to be submitted no later than at the first meeting of the Committee after 1 February)
    Former advisers to the Norwegian Nobel Committee
    https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/

    Dave, Simon, why haven’t you already nominated Patterico, Dana, and JVW?

    It’s the short list, after the Nobel committee sifts through all the “nominations”, that are the real nominations, and that list remains … wait for it … anonymous.

    nk (1d9030)

  182. how about this jackass, who cries all over terrorists, many of whom he have returned to the fight, like bin qumu, or said al shihri, the latter plays a part in my novella,

    https://dailycaller.com/2020/09/08/moe-davis-madison-cawthorn-north-carolina-republicans-twitter-scrawny-pasty-necks/

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  183. #180 McCain was never my favorite politician. However, portraying him as some low-character AlQaeda enabler would be unbearably unjust if it weren’t also Monty Python absurd. Are you sure you aren’t the current incarnation of Blackadder?

    Appalled (1a17de)

  184. Speaking of American soldiers of World War One, something occured to me after watching “Sergeant York” on TCM a few months ago.

    Today, Alvin C. York, the most famous American soldier of the war, would today be considered a “Deplorable,” who “clings to guns and religion,” especially by an organization like Atlantic magazine.

    As a Tennessean, Alvin York means a lot to me. I come from the same sort of people. A hundred years ago my family was living the same way. They had to grow crops (and hunt) to feed themselves. Besides farming, York worked on the railroad and as a logger. York was also what was called a mechanic. He carried around a toolbox and did jobs for whoever would hire him.

    A supposed recipient of “White Privilege.”

    “Sergeant York” couldn’t be made today. The Academy just announced movies about Evil White Men can no longer be made.

    DN (095be6)

  185. Obama won his Nobel with way fewer accomplishments than Trump. One standard, applied…oh, f*ck, nevermind.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  186. #185 I wonder how the wokes would treat Audie Murphy (or even Ira Hayes).

    Appalled (1a17de)

  187. luttrell and kyle were professional military, seals, who are the tip of the spear, I was shocked I guess I shouldn’t be, at the idiots reviewing lone survivor who ridiculed his claims and even the existence of his quarry who slew his men, ahmad shah, who eventually met his end at the hands of pakistani police, of course we discovered not a few years later how our ‘brave ally’ had sheltered bin laden, and only through data gleaned from those interrogations did we find his hidey hole,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  188. That movie was Hollywood-fakey too, DN. Alvin York always wore a moustache. Gary Cooper never wore a moustache. You saw who won. Huck Follywood!

    nk (1d9030)

  189. @185 I think I’m missing the context to understand what you’re talking about.

    Time123 (457a1d)

  190. 173. Gryph (f63000) — 9/9/2020 @ 6:05 am

    171. They aren’t anonymous to the Atlantic, assuming that it is even a true story to begin with.

    I don;t think it s a true story. But it might be an old story. In fact, it’s possible it was told by the very same people who were responsible for advising that the visit to the cemetery not be made who maybe then turned around and blamed Trump.

    I have my doubts, but I can’t say one way or the other that it is or isn’t true.

    Jonathan Karl, Chief White House Correspondent for ABC News, said on WOAR radio this morning that the anecdote is problematic. It’s been denied by everyone Trump could said that to, with the exception of John Kelly, including John Bolton who is not very friendly disposed toward Donald Trump, although you could argue maybe he hopes Trump will drop the lawsuit against him for the money he made by publishing that book.

    Now other things in the Atlantic article might be true, he said. This was the lead anecdote.

    Given the character of The Atlantic’s editorial staff (which is again a matter of public record), it is absolutely possible that these “anonymous sources” could themselves be a bunch of bunk.

    Yes, but I think they might be the same people who originally tricked Trump into cancelling that visit that day.

    It’s just too convenient for a two-year-old “October surprise.

    The whole thing looks like a planned hit piece co-ordinated by the opposition campaign, like the publicity about the Access Hollywood tape in 2016. That tape was real, but the surge of publicity about it wasn’t natural. Democrats got bitter or pretended later to be bitter over the fact that Wikileaks made a dump about that time, claiming it stole some of their thunder, which isn’t true. Trump also decided to remind people of what Bill Clinton had done with regard to women.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  191. As for a October surprise, approval of a vaccine could be an October surprise. Trump said so himself, and was backed up by Mark Meadows.

    And the Democrats I think are trying to stop it.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-07/biden-said-he-would-follow-scientists-guidance-about-vaccine

    President Donald Trump hinted Monday that the U.S. could approve a coronavirus vaccine in October, ahead of the November election, as Joe Biden demanded transparency from the government as it studies the shots.

    “This could’ve taken two or three years, and instead it’s going to be — going to be done in a very short period of time,” Trump said during a news conference in which he criticized Biden for his skepticism that the FDA is operating free of political pressure.

    “Could even have it during the month of October,” Trump added, calling Biden’s doubts “political lies.”

    ….“The vaccine will be very safe and very effective,” the president said Monday. “And it’ll be delivered very soon. Now, you could — you could have a very big surprise coming up.”

    Before Trump’s news conference, Biden said he would heed the advice of scientists about whether to get a coronavirus vaccine if one were to become available before November’s presidential election.

    “I’d want to see what the scientists said,” he told reporters Monday outside a supporter’s home in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

    Asked if he would trust Anthony Fauci and the Food and Drug Administration, Biden redirected, saying he’d “want full transparency on a vaccine.”

    Biden has previously expressed concern about Trump and political appointees pushing for the premature approval of a vaccine in hopes of boosting his re-election chances. “He’s undermining public confidence,” Biden said of Trump.

    Trump fired back during news conference on Monday.

    Biden and his running mate, Kamala Harris, “should immediately apologize for the reckless anti-vaccine rhetoric that they’re talking right now, talking about endangering lives, and it undermines science.”

    Biden said he worries Trump’s behavior will damage public confidence if there’s an effective vaccine.

    “One of the problems with the way he’s playing with politics is he’s said so many things that aren’t true I’m worried if we do have a really good vaccine, people are going to be reluctant to take it,” he said.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  192. Now the thing is – that very many people would find their reputations damaged if they were involved in getting out a bad vaccine.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  193. Trump publicly minimized the coronavirus problem, but he also did a few things to combat it that some other president wouldn’t have done. But most of that was pushing the bureaucracy – on tests, or PPE< on therapeutics and on a vaccine – and at the Republican National Convention they didn't want to take credit for that, citing mostly only his limitations (not a cutoff) on travel from China.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  194. It is probably true that Trump thinks people like Alvin York are war heroes, and always wondered why Prisoners of war were made into heroes in the Vietnam War. The reason, of course, is that the Vietnam War was controversial, and it was even accused of being immoral.

    Trump never would have mentioned it, though, of he didn’t like Senator McCain criticizing him.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  195. @183 — read what @187 wrote. The point is not that Trump deserves the Nobel Peace Prize (probably not). It is that Obama got it for doing far less than Trump did. And yet the mainstream opinion is that of course Obama deserved it, and of course it is laughable that Trump would ever get it.

    This is just another example of the kind of mendacity and double standards that led to us to getting a huckster like Trump as president. Until his critics face up to that, they are just a bunch of whiny kids, in my book.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  196. Sammy —

    I think Trump thinks Roy Cohn was a war hero.

    As for your accusations on the Democrats — Trump has made his coronavirus response nakedly political. Enough so that it is not hard to believe he would rush a vaccine before the election, just because. So is it that shocking that the Dems would play some politics too? This thing ought to be bipartisan, with some wrangling around the edges like lockdowns. It didn’t work out that way. Guess who owns that? Hint, it isn’t Pelosi…

    Appalled (1a17de)

  197. By the by; the reason why the other generals and other dignitaries could make it to the funeral but Trump couldn’t is covered in Bolton’s book.

    The weather grounded the Presidential helicopter except for emergencies.

    The ground route was 90-120 minutes distance, was not a highway route, had uncontrolled and unknown traffic prone to stoppages. It was too insecure and dangerous to take the President.

    Others who made it to the memorial either started closer, or did not have the security requirements that the President of the US has in his motorcade when driving.

    Ingot9455 (20adc8)

  198. I am not laughing at the idea of Trump getting it. Obama got it for not being George W. Bush, and that qualifies Trump too. The cash and the medal (it’s solid gold, you know) are nice, but as a badge of honor I’ll take my fourth-grade weekly spelling bee gold star. I’m laughing at the misapprehension of the Nobel nominating process.

    nk (1d9030)

  199. The interesting part isn’t that Trump was nominated for a Nobel Prize, it’s who did the nominating, Norway’s “top anti-immigration crank”.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  200. Yes they give it to arafat, carter maybe posthumously to suleimani.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  201. @202

    Thank you for (inadvertently?) making my point. See how the Daily Beast dismisses it because (a) hundreds of people are nominated every year and (b) the nomination came from one of Norway’s most well-known anti-immigration cranks.

    Both of those are true. But both of those are snarky ways to avoid the plain fact that Trump has done much more for world peace in his first term than Obama did in two terms. If Obama deserves the Nobel prize (and he doesn’t), then Trump deserves five prizes.

    This is one more example of the mendacity I was talking about.

    ““The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves”

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  202. The irony over the Nobel Prize, is that the foundation was largely funded by the invention of the dynamite (he had other inventions, but this was his most famous).

    whembly (28d712)

  203. Dynamite is not necessarily used for war. It has peaceful uses, like in mining and building.

    (Someone once told me an interesting story. I went to school in Washington Heights, in the north part of Manhattan. The buildings there sit on massive, hard bedrock. You can still occasionally see very large, 100 foot high, rocks between certain buildings.

    This person was there in the 1950s and 1960s when the buildings, mostly apartment buildings, were built. They needed to break these massive rocks apart. Ordinarily they would use dynamite, but because they were very close to residential neighborhoods, it was unsafe to do that.

    So someone came up with a brillant idea. They drilled holes into the rocks, and then shoved long wooden poles into the holes. The end of the pole would stick out, and then they hung buckets of water there, with cloths in the water and at the end of the pole. The wood absorbed the water, and as it was absorbed, the wood expanded and cracked the rock. They were then able to break it up and cart it away so they could build.)

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  204. They gave one to tr for negotiating an end to the ruinous russo japanese war, that began with a surprise attack on port arthu, well not a surprise to sidney reilley.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  205. Dynamit Nobel still makes munitions, down to .380 ACP that I know of under the brand of one of its subsidiaries. (Don’t use it, I’m a Remington fan.)

    nk (1d9030)

  206. It is a russian or perhaps georgian trait, stalin didnt believe what his own agent demidov (sic) was telling him about the upcoming german invasion

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  207. The also had an oil concern, the white russian demohrenschilt was a part of that.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  208. ‘Alvin York always wore a moustache. Gary Cooper never wore a moustache. You saw who won. Huck Follywood!’

    Reaganoptics.

    “Randy, Randy – Where’s the rest of me…?” – Drake McHugh [Ronald Reagan] ‘Kings Row’ 1942

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  209. It is a russian or perhaps georgian trait, stalin didnt believe what his own agent demidov (sic) was telling him about the upcoming german invasion

    Not sure what you are commenting on. But what you are mentioning is a human trait. Not wanting to believe inconvenient truths is an all too-common occurence in world history, for many ethnicities and contexts.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  210. Appalled (1a17de) — 9/9/2020 @ 8:04 am

    As for your accusations on the Democrats — Trump has made his coronavirus response nakedly political. Enough so that it is not hard to believe he would rush a vaccine before the election, just because.

    He definitely wants to rush it, but he can’t do something that shouldn’t be done. People who have a lot to lose if the vaccine was no good would have to approve. Trump actually is being ~ now ~ very cautious. Too cautious.

    As proof. he has stopped talking about hydroxychloroquine – which he shouldn’t have even though there are things that are much better.

    The charge of political interference has a little resonance because some people might assume that the process is good. Actually the process of drug approval is horrible, and it is not just with this, and has been now for close to 60 years.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/medical-researchs-cross-of-gold-imperils-covid-treatments-11599589020

    One obvious problem is that giving patients a placebo when therapies have shown benefits may be unethical….Withholding the drug from severely ill patients in a control group might have caused hundreds of unnecessary deaths.

    Randomized trials must usually enroll thousands of subjects to demonstrate a “statistically significant” finding—one that is less than 1% likely to be due to chance. [I thought that was 5%. They raised it? You could do as the physicists do and make it 5 sigma – one chance in 3,500,000 of being by chance]

    ..Another problem with Covid-19 randomized trials: Patients at different stages of an illness are often assigned the same dosage. Trials don’t reveal differences in how patients respond to a drug at different dosages or illness severity.

    Observational studies can do so. Consider a large study by the Mayo Clinic, which found no overall benefit among patients who received a higher-antibody convalescent plasma versus a lower one. Yet the researchers reported a 37% reduction in mortality among patients under 80 who weren’t on a ventilator and received a high-antibody plasma within three days of hospitalizations.

    A randomized trial might have obscured these nuances and complexities, denying doctors important information about treatment options. Randomized controlled trials can yield important insights, but it is a medical mistake and a disservice to patients to dismiss other types of evidence.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  211. This story is probably worth its own separate post.

    President Donald Trump admitted he knew weeks before the first confirmed US coronavirus death that the virus was dangerous, airborne, highly contagious and “more deadly than even your strenuous flus,” and that he repeatedly played it down publicly, according to legendary journalist Bob Woodward in his new book “Rage.”
    “This is deadly stuff,” Trump told Woodward on February 7.
    In a series of interviews with Woodward, Trump revealed that he had a surprising level of detail about the threat of the virus earlier than previously known. “Pretty amazing,” Trump told Woodward, adding that the coronavirus was maybe five times “more deadly” than the flu.

    Trump’s lies and downtalking cost the lives of tens of thousands of Americans. Maybe it’s just the deluge of material coming out, but every day it should be clearer and clearer to Americans and the world how unfit this manboy is for the job of president.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  212. @130.Trump has stuck up for two servicemen:Mike Flynn, a gonnif. Eddie Gallaghers, a psychopath. Anybody know any more?

    Patton.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  213. A top flight intelligence officer and a grizzled operator, there was manifold malpractice in both cases.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  214. From Woodward’s book…

    Trump’s attention span “is like a minus number” and “his sole purpose is get reelected”.

    If Fauci doesn’t get fired for that, then he really does have lifetime tenure at the NIH.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  215. A top flight intelligence officer and a grizzled operator, there was manifold malpractice in both cases.

    An incompetent traitor and a war criminal are the actual descriptors.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  216. “This is deadly stuff,” Trump told Woodward on February 7.

    Paul, that is amazing.

    Just by happenstance, Trump put in place the China travel ban a week earlier. And, Biden, Pelosi, etc. absolutely loved it.

    beer ‘n pretzels (91a694)

  217. Patton.

    DCSCA, I suspect that was the movie that came to his head at the time he was asked the question. Like when he was asked what hind of judges he would appoint, and he said like his sister. It’s a good thing he hadn’t watched “Viva Zapata!”.

    nk (1d9030)

  218. The Democrats are not running merely on the idea of distrusting Donald Trump. They’re running on the idea that Donald Trump has corrupted everybody in the government.

    Biden’s position is: “Hands off – it’s above my pay grade.” Interference may be good or bad, but leaving things alone, when they are not working well and obvious mistake can be pointed out, is a kind of guarantee that nothing better will or can be done. Abraham Lincoln interfered with generals.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  219. Just by happenstance, Trump put in place the China travel ban a week earlier. And, Biden, Pelosi, etc. absolutely loved it.

    And the strain of the virus that has decimated the US came from…Europe. Also, of course you know this because it’s been explained to you 5,000 times, the “travel ban” wasn’t a travel ban because tens of thousands of people came from China to the US after this “ban” was put in place. What do you think the word ban means?

    Also, also, 200k dead Americans.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  220. They’ve put everyone on the super defensive

    https://nypost.com/2020/09/09/alex-azar-says-any-covid-19-vaccine-would-meet-fda-standards

    The current standard of proof is bad whereever it is applied.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3179209

    The one sure thing it does is slow progress.

    And the Democrats want more of it.

    I don’t know if Trump can carry an argument about all this but te Republicans would do well to try.

    This “listen to the scientists” slogan is something that strongly needs to be debunked.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  221. @217. You do realize that the media has crossed the line into overkill. People are going to vote for Trump just to piss off the likes Andrea Mitchell and Don Lemon… and Bob Woodward.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  222. Which is what vivek murthy, freiden actually did to the cdc and other agencies.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  223. 222. The strain of the virus that infected the East Coast and most of the United States came directly from Wuhan to Italy because Wuhan was a source of raw material for specially designed clothing, like wedding dresses.

    The virus that came from the rest of China was a later, somewhat less serious, mutation.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  224. Appalled”

    So is it that shocking that the Dems would play some politics too?

    In 1968, Lyndon Johnson was anxious to show progress toward ending the Vietnam War. Nixon was later falsely accused of interfering with that, with the implication that would be wrong.

    In 1980, Jimmy Carter would have been pleased to see the hostages released. Later, in the mid to late 1980s he was behind the accusations that Reagan had sought to interfere with that, with the implication that would have been wrong. He even got Congress to investigate it. (Yes, it was Jimmy Carter himself who was behind the accusations of Reagan and Bush wanting to prevent an October Surprise. He was close to all three major proponents of that claim – Barbara Honnegger, Abbie Hoffman and Gary Sick – and even edited and approved Gary Sick’s book.)

    This thing ought to be bipartisan, with some wrangling around the edges like lockdowns. It didn’t work out that way. Guess who owns that? Hint, it isn’t Pelosi…

    Donald Trump is responsible for promising it would end soon. He wanted people to think so, in the hopes that it would turn out that way and the economy then wouldn’t shrink so much,

    But he didn’t, and he couldn’t, corrupt everybody involved in the process of developing medical responses to Covid-19. Nobody would want to be responsible for anything that would explode in their faces after the election.

    The Democrats seem intent on trying to make sure it doesn’t end soon.

    https://nypost.com/2020/09/08/biden-and-harris-must-quit-playing-politics-with-covid-19-vaccine

    Are Joe Biden and Kamala Harris trying to prolong the pandemic? That might be the result of their reckless efforts to erode confidence in a vaccine — even as they blame President Trump for doing that.

    “I would want to see what the scientists said” about any vaccine, Biden huffed Monday. “I want full transparency.” That is: Don’t trust a vaccine OK’d by Team Trump.

    Harris was even more blunt: She’d “trust the word of public-health experts” but not the president — and insisted those experts won’t have the final say: They “will be muzzled, they will be suppressed, they will be sidelined.” What an appalling insult to the integrity of Dr. Tony Fauci and others.

    The anti-Trump media, too, are playing this game: “Scientists Worry About Political Influence Over Coronavirus Vaccine Project,” The New York Times blared….

    They’ve also made it a liability for Trump to take credit for accelerating different ways of dealing with the vaccine or treatments. Or anything that he;s done.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  225. The Biden campaign supports rioting, looting, Antifa and defunding the police.

    Sure, there’s no source on record to back that up. But, it sounds right. So it’s accurate. Going with it.

    beer ‘n pretzels (3a693d)

  226. Translation, they threw the south vietnamede under the bus, like truman did chiang almost 20 years earlier.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  227. It’s impossible to even pay attention to anything Nancy Pelosi says [now on MSNBC now cackling w/Andrea Michell]– all you can do is stare at her hair and ponder what it cost to wash and dye that mop.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  228. Just by happenstance, Trump put in place the China travel ban a week earlier. And, Biden, Pelosi, etc. absolutely loved it.

    You’re parroting FakeNews, beer. It wasn’t a “ban” because there were eleven exemptions that allowed almost 40,000 to travel from China after the first two months of the “ban”. Trump resisted travel restrictions at first, but the airlines were starting to do it on their own and 40 other countries had also instituted restrictions at the time.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  229. You can sense desperation in their voices and see concern in their eyes… they must have internal numbers trending Hidin’ Biden hid too long and is cratering.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  230. I tried talking appalled off the ledge in 2008 and then with ahadow gov abrams.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  231. Pelosi on Trump’s travel restrictions…

    Pelosi has not addressed that policy on Twitter, or anywhere else that we could find. We searched the Congressional Record, reviewed her weekly press briefings and other public appearances, and scoured news coverage on LexisNexis. We could find no comment from Pelosi regarding her position on that decision.

    Biden on Trump’s travel restrictions…

    Trump charged without evidence or elaboration that if he had listened to Biden, “hundreds of thousands of additional lives would have been lost.” We asked the White House what he was referring to, but it provided no response, nor did the Trump campaign.
    It seems likely the president was referring to the travel restrictions, since he said that Biden “opposed my very strict travel ban.” In fact, Biden took no position on the China restrictions when they were implemented.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  232. You can sense desperation in their voices and see concern in their eyes… they must have internal numbers trending Hidin’ Biden hid too long and is cratering.

    By cratering you mean leading Trump by 10 points and is leading in all the swing states, to the point they’re not even close. Georgia and Texas are now swing states.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  233. “I’m real excited about Joe Biden.” – Nancy Pelosi 9/9/2020

    O.M.G.

    Beau-loney.

    “Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump.”- W.C. Fields

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  234. @235. Dewey defeated Truman, too.

    HRC ws 10-plus points up a dozen days before the night she lost. Beau-ing, beau-ing… gone.

    “Klink, you boob!”- General Burkhalter [Leon Askin] ‘Hogan’s Heroes’ CBS TV, 1965-1971

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  235. Right, Paul. We should’ve banned everyone, including American citizens. You, Pelosi and Biden said that at the time. Surely you can back that up. Oh wait… you did @234:

    We could find no comment from Pelosi regarding her position on that decision.

    In fact, Biden took no position on the China restrictions when they were implemented.

    Meanwhile, Trump actually did something, and all we heard from them was some BS about xenophobia.

    beer ‘n pretzels (109445)

  236. By cratering you mean leading Trump by 10 points and is leading in all the swing states, to the point they’re not even close

    To paraphrase Mark Twain, there are lies, damn lies, and poll numbers.

    Before Covid, there was a lunch spot near my office that I would often go to. (Now my lunch spot is the kitchen.) Across the street there was a fortune teller, who sat on a chair on the sidewalk, and offered to tell your fortune for $10.

    I thought to myself, if she can really tell the future, why does she need to tell fortunes at $10 a pop? Why not predict next week’s lottery numbers and retire?

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  237. that was true about miss cleo, how did she miss it,

    https://nypost.com/2020/09/05/osama-bin-ladens-niece-says-only-trump-can-prevent-another-9-11/

    they could switch families, but I think there would be a ransom of red chief thing going on, she points out how omar, argues for al shahaab, and this cohort of the democrats is growing larger,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  238. she not only opposed the ban, she welcomed the visitors to china town in san francisco, like that municipal official in milan was it, and the health commissioner in new york,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  239. Right, Paul. We should’ve banned everyone, including American citizens.

    Not the point, beer. The point is you mischaracterizing what Trump actually did. Words like “ban” and “restrictions” are not synonyms.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  240. Meanwhile, Trump actually did something, and all we heard from them was some BS about xenophobia.

    beer ‘n pretzels (109445) — 9/9/2020 @ 9:57 am

    Partially True. The airlines announced they were restricting their flights before Trump made his announcement. After the announcement they let 40,000+ people in. They also didn’t effectively use the time to accomplish such basic tasks as making sure the testing worked and setting up a contract tracing system.

    So he did something, it wasn’t counterproductive, but it was ineffective the results have been poor.

    Time123 (daab2f)

  241. The day that Trump announced the partial restrictions on travelers from China was also the 3rd anniversary of his “Muslim ban”.

    In the days leading up, the Democrats had been criticizing him for the Muslim ban, and on that day (in a move completely distinct from the COVID-inspired restrictions) Trump extended it to even more countries in Africa, prompting understandable new criticism.

    Thus, there were reasons in the news at that time – having nothing to do with COVID-19 – to excoriate Trump as a xenophobic racist.

    And Biden had just published a prophetic editorial in USA Today, warning that COVID was going to sand our d*cks because Trump wasn’t taking it seriously. So the suggestion that he blasted Trump’s response just five days later is typical cult dissimulation in the face of unpleasant reality.

    Dave (1bb933)

  242. To paraphrase Mark Twain, there are lies, damn lies, and poll numbers.

    Poll numbers indicate what people are thinking today. There’s error from a lot of different factors. That can be considered measurement error, such as you get with any real world data.

    It may have some predictive value for the outcome of the election and you’re free to use it in any way that you like.

    Time123 (daab2f)

  243. Ms. McEnany: “The president has never lied to the American public about COVID.”

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  244. Poll numbers are useful trendlines that were completed in a delayed fashion. Meaning, it’s usually done the week (or two) prior. In this age of cable news and social media, that’s damn near ancient news.

    That’s why there’s private polling firms paid for by each candidates. Those usually aren’t made public, but used by the campaign to tailor their message and shift resources as needed.

    The fact that Biden isn’t clobbering Trump, ala HRC in 2016, and in some cases Trump is overperforming in certain areas (ie, Miami-Dade). Those are the trends you need to look for, which bodes well for Trump.

    whembly (c30c83)

  245. “The president has never lied to the American public about COVID.”

    And we have always been at war with Eastasia.

    Dave (1bb933)

  246. @245 and @247

    I agree polls can be useful. But the notion that today Biden is ahead by 10%, and so the election is over, is pure bunkum. Just ask President Thomas E. Dewey.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  247. O.M.G.

    Plagiarist JoeyBee in Warren, MI; removes mask, literally yell in an empty car lot.

    “Radio! Heater! Easy payments!” – Richard Nixon [David Frye] ‘I Am The Presdent’ LP, 1969

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  248. The fact that Biden isn’t clobbering Trump, ala HRC in 2016

    The only poll that had Trump leading almost wire-to-wire in 2016 (and by 3 points on Election Day) currently has Biden up by 15…

    Dave (1bb933)

  249. Ms. McEnany:

    “The president never downplayed the virus.”

    Au contraire, lady.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  250. @245 and @247

    I agree polls can be useful. But the notion that today Biden is ahead by 10%, and so the election is over, is pure bunkum. Just ask President Thomas E. Dewey.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/9/2020 @ 10:56 am

    Agreed, the fact that he’s up by about 10% is true, and has been for some time, but that doesn’t mean the election is over. It just means that at this point in time he’s ahead.

    Time123 (36651d)

  251. “Prescription jugs,” Joe?

    Breast augmentation?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  252. @252

    Ms. McEnany:
    “The president never downplayed the virus.”

    Dude… “I tried to play down the virus” is the headline while ignoring the VERY NEXT SENTENCE OF “I don’t want to panic people.”

    The headline literally takes those statement out of context.

    Au contraire, lady.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e) — 9/9/2020 @ 10:59 am

    lol the Bulwurk.

    Must. Defend. The. Narrative.

    whembly (c30c83)

  253. “My son Beau…” Again using his dead kid as a crutch. FDR didn’t flaunt his polio for votes, Plagiarist Joe.

    Yes, Joe, Beau was a sucker for volunteering– unlike you who ‘worked the system’ and got five deferments.

    Put the mask bac on, Joe– you’ve coughed several times LIVE on camera.

    Shame on you, Joe.

    “Shame, shame, shame.” – Gomer Pyle, USMC [Jim Nabors] CBS TV, 1964-69

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  254. Just Security just updated its comprehensive timeline, with the Woodward-related entries in red.

    Paul Montagu (ad6b35)

  255. Must. Defend. The. Narrative.

    I agree. What facts did Miller get wrong?

    Paul Montagu (ad6b35)

  256. “Dude… “I tried to play down the virus” is the headline while ignoring the VERY NEXT SENTENCE OF “I don’t want to panic people.”

    The headline literally takes those statement out of context.”

    How does that context make “The president never downplayed the virus.” less of a lie?

    Davethulhu (4c5c2a)

  257. @253

    It’s more complicated than that. It is not only that people can change their mind in the next seven weeks. It is that polls can be biased and inaccurate in many ways. One well-know issue is that not everyone who answers a poll goes to vote. Another is that people are embarassed to give certain answers, and then when the get into the voting booth, they do something else.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  258. Man of the people: Plagiarist JoeyBee praises the Electric Corvette that goes 220 mph.

    It’s a $750,000 car, Joe.

    Yeah, a chicken in every pot; a Model-T in every garage, eh, Joe?

    Idiot.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  259. @253

    It’s more complicated than that. It is not only that people can change their mind in the next seven weeks. It is that polls can be biased and inaccurate in many ways. One well-know issue is that not everyone who answers a poll goes to vote. Another is that people are embarassed to give certain answers, and then when the get into the voting booth, they do something else.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/9/2020 @ 11:16 am

    Agreed, in my previous comment I said there were many sources of error in a poll. Just like there’s error in any real world measurement. Also like any real world measurement there are things you can do in your measuring that can minimize those errors. Likely voter vs registered voter vs all respondents are important splits. The wording of the question and the way the poll is administered are also important. But the fact that there are known sources of error doesn’t mean it tells us nothing. It just needs to be understood properly.

    Time123 (daab2f)

  260. Man of the people: Plagiarist JoeyBee praises the Electric Corvette that goes 220 mph.

    It’s a $750,000 car, Joe.

    Yeah, a chicken in every pot; a Model-T in every garage, eh, Joe?

    Idiot.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/9/2020 @ 11:17 am

    Dude, a 220MPH electric Corvette is cool. I’ll never own one, but they’re still cool.

    Time123 (daab2f)

  261. Strangely, the vast majority of all these presidential poll suddenly close by about 7-10 points about 2 weeks to 10 days before the election. I wonder why?

    Ingot9455 (20adc8)

  262. @263. The point is, he was pitching woo to lunch bucket blue collar union dudes.– using a $750,000 vehicle as an example.

    But “cool?” So is a space shuttle orbiter.

    To plagiarize a phrase: ‘I’ll never own one, but they’re still cool.’ 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  263. <b

    There are lies, damn lies, and poll numbers.

    There are lies, damned lies, statistics and scientific proof.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  264. Well under 10% of all persons contacted respond to polls these days.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  265. 229 A bit more than 25 years earlier, or maybe it goes back to 1946.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  266. @265, bet you most of the people who work those plants think a 220MPH Corvette is cool. 😀

    Time123 (36651d)


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