Patterico's Pontifications

9/3/2020

Trump’s CDC Issues Order Preventing Evictions, Citing COVID

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 8:29 am



If this policy had been announced by Barack Obama (or Joe Biden) patriots all over the land would be talking about grabbing their guns and marching on Washington. But since it’s Trump, I guess it’s OK:

The Trump administration is again pushing the envelope of its executive authority by issuing a new blanket eviction moratorium that applies to all rental properties nationwide. The order, published Tuesday, is a dramatic expansion of the now-expired eviction moratorium passed by Congress in March, and could potentially impose heavy criminal penalties on landlords for attempting to remove non-paying tenants from their properties.

According to the order advanced by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) yesterday, tenants earning up to $99,000 ($198,000 for joint filers) cannot be evicted for not paying their rent provided they tell their landlord in writing that they’ve made all efforts to obtain government assistance, have lost income or received extraordinary out-of-pocket medical bills, and that their eviction would force them into homelessness or into a crowded living situation.

. . . .

The CDC order goes far beyond the federal eviction mortarium passed as part of the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act in March. That congressionally authorized policy only covered the 28 percent of multifamily residential units with a federally backed mortgage. It expired at the end of July.

This is the kind of thing legislatures do, not presidents, and there is good reason for that because legislatures better weigh conflicting interests and tend to take action in a less blunderbuss fashion. Even when legislatures do it, actions like this always carry unintended consequences, since landlords still have to make mortgage payments. This pulls the rug out from under landlords who are, all over the country, in the middle of negotiations with their tenants who can’t pay, attempting to persuade them to make partial payments so the mortgage can be covered. Landlords will now be even more reluctant to rent to people with poor credit and will likely require even greater guarantees in advance in the form of rental payments or increased security deposits. Homelessness will likely increase, not decrease. It’s socialistic and it’s autocratic and it’s bad policy.

Also, the justification offered here (the spread of COVID) is wafer-thin. It’s probably a violation of the Constitution’s Takings Clause and it’s unlikely to withstand court scrutiny — and make no mistake, that’s coming, because landlords have associations and the associations have lawyers.

By the way, tenants are still on the hook for the rent; it’s not forgiven but the consequences for non-payment are deferred until January, kind of like Trump’s payroll tax holiday for federal workers. Trump has pulled the pin on a couple of grenades that are not set to explode until after Biden is elected (assuming he is). The chaos that will ensue is mind-boggling.

None of that matters to Donald Trump. There are more renters than landlords, and this is nothing but a naked grab for votes by someone who can read the polls, even if he doesn’t read anything else that is not a short document wholly about him. No wonder he’s bragging about it.

151 Responses to “Trump’s CDC Issues Order Preventing Evictions, Citing COVID”

  1. Don’t look at what Trump says, look at what he does!!!!!1!

    OK. He did this. Now what?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  2. I think its stupid policy, wage amd price controls stupid, but this lockdown has forced this circumstance and youre still in favor of it.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  3. It is only an election stunt, unconstitutional on more levels than his daily blood sugar count.

    nk (1d9030)

  4. Fine get a hawaian judge to cancel it and pedicure pelosi craft a remedy.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  5. @1

    Don’t look at what Trump says, look at what he does!!!!!1!

    OK. He did this. Now what?

    Patterico (115b1f) — 9/3/2020 @ 8:47 am

    I know this was directed at me. You can address me ya know?

    Now what? Unless there is legal/statuatory justification for this, it should be challenged in court.

    whembly (2900b2)

  6. I knew the Trumpers would justify it, as they justify everything he does, but I was just curious how. “It’s the fault of the lockdowns” is the BS argument I should have seen coming.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  7. I know this was directed at me. You can address me ya know?

    Now what? Unless there is legal/statuatory justification for this, it should be challenged in court.

    OK. That’s all you have to say? Do you support it? Are you concerned by the power grab?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  8. @7

    I know this was directed at me. You can address me ya know?

    Now what? Unless there is legal/statuatory justification for this, it should be challenged in court.

    OK. That’s all you have to say? Do you support it? Are you concerned by the power grab?

    Patterico (115b1f) — 9/3/2020 @ 9:02 am

    I literally just said that it should be challenged in court if there’s no legal justification for it.

    Does that sound like I support it?

    On a practical/policy matter, unless that landowner get some relief as well it’s a dumb economic policy.

    whembly (2900b2)

  9. I disagree with it, strenuously, tell me your alternative.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  10. I presume that the Kushner rental properties will not be affected since the residential rents are paid by HUD and the business rents by the SBA?

    nk (1d9030)

  11. This is stupid and most likely illegal directive.

    Conservatives have been against government meddling in housing issues for a while. But the question is – will Biden be more conservative than Trump when it comes to housing? Or will he expand low-income housing, and look to make the suburbs more like the urban city centers that Democrats have run into the ground?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  12. See you cant be for the lockdown and be against this, its unsustainable in the long term.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  13. But the question is – will Biden be more conservative than Trump when it comes to housing?

    No, that is not the question. The question here and now is did Trump just pull a blatantly unconstitutional stunt? That is the question.

    You can ask your question some other time along with whether putting your head under the blanket works with both the closet boogeyman and the under-the-bed boogeyman.

    nk (1d9030)

  14. Therein lies the contradiction,pedicuee pelosi made sure mediamatters and tampa tribune and deniros tribeca restaurants got money, but miss kious got zip, and tens of thousands of other business got bupkis.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  15. @5-

    The statutory justification is “42 CFR Section 70.2 a regulation that gives the Director of the CDC the power to “take such measures to prevent such spread of the [communicable] diseases as he/she deems reasonably necessary, including inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, and destruction of animals or articles believed to be sources of infection.”

    Source

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  16. I dare you to find a judge to rule against this, and then find an alternative.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  17. Correction, the statutory justification for 42 CFR Section 70.2 is 42 U.S. Code § 264(a):

    The Surgeon General, with the approval of the Secretary, is authorized to make and enforce such regulations as in his judgment are necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the States or possessions, or from one State or possession into any other State or possession. For purposes of carrying out and enforcing such regulations, the Surgeon General may provide for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated as to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  18. Yes it would probably fly, but it shouldnt.

    Bolivar di griz (7404b5)

  19. We ain’t seen nothing yet, folks. This and the mail fraud of yesterday are only the first two steps of election illegality that will make us the envy of Belarus.

    nk (1d9030)

  20. Trump has pulled the pin on a couple of grenades that are not set to explode until after Biden is elected (assuming he is). The chaos that will ensue is mind-boggling.

    This is exactly right, he’s trying to set up an I-told-you-so on one hand, and an excuse for Big Changes after, if he somehow maintains power.

    john (cd2753)

  21. @17

    Correction, the statutory justification for 42 CFR Section 70.2 is 42 U.S. Code § 264(a):

    The Surgeon General, with the approval of the Secretary, is authorized to make and enforce such regulations as in his judgment are necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the States or possessions, or from one State or possession into any other State or possession. For purposes of carrying out and enforcing such regulations, the Surgeon General may provide for such inspection, fumigation, disinfection, sanitation, pest extermination, destruction of animals or articles found to be so infected or contaminated as to be sources of dangerous infection to human beings, and other measures, as in his judgment may be necessary.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8) — 9/3/2020 @ 9:19 am

    I don’t see how that’s even close to a legal justification.

    The landowner associations should definitely sue.

    whembly (2900b2)

  22. I don’t believe cdc has jurisdiction over evictions.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  23. Stroke of the pen. Law of the land. Kinda cool.
    Trump has to be a RINO, right? Doing the Clinton thang.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  24. the virus is going to kill everybody, (no it won’t) but we shut down the whole country, except special edicts from ‘pedacure pelosi) so what’s your solution,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  25. The question here and now is did Trump just pull a blatantly unconstitutional stunt? That is the question.

    Seems I answered the question with my first sentence. I then wonder if Biden will be any better.

    Stroke of the pen. Law of the land. Kinda cool.

    Obama loved his executive orders.

    I for one like how Obama, with the wave of his pen, got rid of due process for college students accused of sexual crimes.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  26. Seems I answered the question with my first sentence. I then wonder if Biden will be any better.

    Yeah, I can dig it. When they caught Jeffrey Dahmer, I wondered whether if not for Dahmer the landlord might have rented that apartment to another serial killer who ate even more people. You know?

    nk (1d9030)

  27. If Trump can do this, Biden can impose a universal mask wearing mandate.

    Just sayin’….

    Appalled (1a17de)

  28. The Washington Post
    @washingtonpost
    ·
    Perspective: The election will likely spark violence — and a constitutional crisis.

    In every scenario except a Biden landslide, our simulation ended catastrophically. https://wapo.st/32Qx2Jy
    __ _

    David Burge
    @iowahawkblog

    perspective: this reads like a ransom note
    __ _

    Second City Bureaucrat
    @CityBureaucrat
    ·
    The experts are weighing in
    __ _

    Trained Maskist Man
    @PostTweetism
    ·
    Civil war incited by the media IS the crisis!
    __ _

    Gus Esquivel
    @Guszilla
    ·
    This is the zenith of “Feeding the Alligator hoping to be eaten Last” mentality.

    In their model (Biden Landslide) the Mobs would be so emboldened that they would be unstoppable by their POTUS. Is this really the best analysis the “Bubble” can muster?

    The US of “CHAZ”??
    __ _

    Is the WaPo saying violence hasn’t already been ‘spark’ed’?

    Gotta love those that champion the rioters saying the only way to make them stop is to put the party that also roots on the riots in charge of the Executive Branch.
    _

    harkin (cd4502)

  29. Gotta love those that champion the rioters saying the only way to make them stop is to put the party that also roots on the riots in charge of the Executive Branch.

    Yes, WaPo is ginning up violence. No wonder the Antifa terrorists feel so emboldened. Media and Democrats have their back. Remember: violence is only okay when the right (and by right I mean Left) people do it.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  30. @23

    Stroke of the pen. Law of the land. Kinda cool.
    Trump has to be a RINO, right? Doing the Clinton thang.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e) — 9/3/2020 @ 9:53 am

    “Obama” than. There, FIFY.

    …and yes, Trump is by a RINO.

    whembly (6c64a1)

  31. @27

    If Trump can do this, Biden can impose a universal mask wearing mandate.

    Just sayin’….

    Appalled (1a17de) — 9/3/2020 @ 10:39 am

    You’re not wrong there…

    whembly (6c64a1)

  32. “Obama” than. There, FIFY.

    True, but I was referring to the original 1998 quote by Begala.

    Paul Montagu (1c867b)

  33. Ah… good call mate. :thumbsup:

    whembly (6c64a1)

  34. Someone FOIA’s Jo-Jo Rosenbaum’s court docs. Turns out he wasn’t just ‘a’ kiddie-diddler.

    Five. Five kids, aged 9-11.

    Go ahead, stan for that lowlife some more. If I ever meet Kyle Rittenhouse I’ll buy him a meal and tell him he did the world a service by ridding it of that puke.

    Have a nice day.

    Capsaicin Addict (041266)

  35. landlords still have to make mortgage payments

    To financial institutions bailed out in the last ‘free market’ hiccup a decade ago deemed ‘too big to fail?!’– or the failed S&L’s bailed out as Reaganomics collapsed in the ate 80s. Bankers will manage; deals will be cut.

    ‘According to the order advanced by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) yesterday, tenants earning up to $99,000 ($198,000 for joint filers) cannot be evicted for not paying their rent provided they tell their landlord in writing that they’ve made all efforts to obtain government assistance, have lost income or received extraordinary out-of-pocket medical bills, and that their eviction would force them into homelessness or into a crowded living situation.

    Landlords could still be able to evict tenants who engage in criminal activity on the property, or who pose a risk to public health or safety. Property owners who do move to evict a tenant in violation of the CDC’s order could be subject to fines of $100,000 and a year in jail.’

    Seems pretty straightforward and a reasonable decision- a blanket policy across the land in a time of emergency is good; be it pandemic or a killer asteroid heading this way. Unless there’s a political desire to create more havoc w/t problem of waves of otherwise responsible citizens living in cars, parks or creating situations with mini-‘Hoovervilles’ springing up across the land. It doesn’t make much sense to evict normally responsible citizens denied income, working at their jobs merely stopped due to a pandemic virus- not a business failure- out into the streets so landlords can sit on empty dwellings and pay… bankers. Ultimately the international banking institutions will just have to tough it out– or ask for help -again- just like airlines and the cruise ship industries, etc. BoA, JPMorgan/Chase & Citibank will manage.

    Tenants won’t be off the hook either– it’s simply payments deferred- and financiers are very creative [remember junk bonds!] – they’ll likely create an interest-bearing program for qualified applicants for payback to make money off this hell. This isn’t a game of Monopoly on the patio, paused by a summer rain shower- it’s real life w/real world consequences. A rental assistance program is the next phase until this hell passes. Wear a mask; get a break on your rent.

    No more political ‘parlor tricks’ Nancy: Americans — and President Trump — insist you to get back to work.

    “I’m gonna wash that man right out of my hair…” – Nellie Forbush [Mitzi Gaynor]’South Pacific’ 1958

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  36. WaPo Nov 2016:

    “In every scenario except Reality, our simulation ended in a Hillary victory.”
    _

    harkin (90be6e)

  37. It’s OK for Trump to violate the constitution, because it can be challenged in court guys. Don’t sweat it.

    I think this policy is just a vote grab, like student council elections bought with lollipops, but it’s interesting that this policy also benefits the wealthiest property buyers over the smaller landlord operations that will go broke from no rent. A lot of property is going to change hands in our cities these days, with riots and no rents making this year a golden opportunity… actually for operations like Trump’s. Just an interesting aspect to this.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  38. Trump’s eviction abatement order is just as unconstitutionally stupid as his defunding federal monies from cities he defines as “anarchist jurisdictions”, but it plays to the base, so yeah.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  39. Trump tries to clarify suggestion that voters cast ballots twice, which if done intentionally is illegal

    President Trump on Thursday sought to clarify remarks in which he suggested voting twice, saying in tweets that he was instead urging those who vote by mail to follow up at their polling place to make sure their mail-in ballots have been counted.

    “Based on the massive number of Unsolicited & Solicited Ballots that will be sent to potential Voters for the upcoming 2020 Election, & in order for you to MAKE SURE YOUR VOTE COUNTS & IS COUNTED, SIGN & MAIL IN your Ballot as EARLY as possible,” Trump tweeted Thursday. “On Election Day, or Early Voting, go to your Polling Place to see whether or not your Mail In Vote has been Tabulated (Counted). If it has you will not be able to Vote & the Mail In System worked properly. If it has not been Counted, VOTE (which is a citizen’s right to do).”

    Following his advice, he said, would ensure “THAT YOUR PRECIOUS VOTE HAS BEEN COUNTED, it hasn’t been ‘lost, thrown out, or in any way destroyed.’ ”

    ……
    In a statement, Karen Brinson Bell, executive director of the (N.C. Board of Elections), also discouraged voters from coming to the polls on Election Day to verify that their mail-in ballots had been counted.

    “The State Board office strongly discourages people from showing up at the polls on Election Day to check whether their absentee ballot was counted,” Bell said. “This is not necessary, and it would lead to longer lines and the possibility of spreading COVID-19.”
    …….
    Given that votes are counted after the polls close, why go to a polling station to see if it has been counted?

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  40. OK. He did this. Now what?

    He gets re-elected.

    He’s a bridge to some place-or no place. This isn’t going to pass until 2024- or he’s found face down in a bowl of German-chocolate cake between four scoops of melting, Dolly Madison vanilla. And even then- the scars he has ‘branded’ on the hide of a GOP willing to get burnt will linger for years.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. I knew the Trumpers would justify it, as they justify everything he does, but I was just curious how. “It’s the fault of the lockdowns” is the BS argument I should have seen coming.

    I don’t consider myself a Trumper. But why do you think there is such a rental crisis? Because millions of people are out of work and cannot pay their rent. And why is that? Until March or so, the economy was roaring, and there were even labor shortages in some sectors. Then COVID and the lockdown hit, severly affecting a large portion of the economy. So it is odd that you do not see the connection.

    Apart from that, if millions of families are evicted and forced to live in the streets or parks, what do you think will happen to social distancing? To the spread of Covid19? (Hint: it won’t be pretty).

    I don’t like power grabs. And I despise the Orange Man. But, really, this is not a crazy reaction to an extreme situation.

    I do agree that what Trump should have done is gone to Congress and asked for this as legislation. Unfortunately, we have a disfunctional Congress. If Trump says red, they say green.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  42. @38. Yep–if only the citizens of Pompeii had waved a decree from Rome at that wall of molten lava rolling at them from Vesuvius or a T-Rex had a copy of the Constitution in its little claws to shake at that killer asteroid threatening their ordered worlds. That’ll halt a natural disaster in its tracks. Nah. Let’s blame China instead. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  43. we agree it’s a stupid move, so what’s the alternative, maybe romney who got out of his rabbit hole, not to denounce the ones who burned kenosha to the ground, but trump, has an idea,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  44. There is no party of limited government.
    There is no party for rule of law.
    There is no party for fiscal discipline.

    There is no large constituency for such a party. Such concerns today will take a back seat to culture war issues, ethnic identity politics, and feeling strong through shows of dominance over the other side.

    The right plays lip service to some of these but it’s not important to them.

    This is stupid and most likely illegal directive.

    The comment below is a perfect example. All one can do is vote for Biden and hope that it results in a less corrupt and incompetent federal government. Given Trump there’s at least a small chance that it will

    Conservatives have been against government meddling in housing issues for a while. But the question is – will Biden be more conservative than Trump when it comes to housing? Or will he expand low-income housing, and look to make the suburbs more like the urban city centers that Democrats have run into the ground?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/3/2020 @ 9:06 am

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  45. I knew the Trumpers would justify it, as they justify everything he does, but I was just curious how. “It’s the fault of the lockdowns” is the BS argument I should have seen coming.

    I don’t consider myself a Trumper. But why do you think there is such a rental crisis? Because millions of people are out of work and cannot pay their rent. And why is that? Until March or so, the economy was roaring, and there were even labor shortages in some sectors. Then COVID and the lockdown hit, severly affecting a large portion of the economy. So it is odd that you do not see the connection.

    Apart from that, if millions of families are evicted and forced to live in the streets or parks, what do you think will happen to social distancing? To the spread of Covid19? (Hint: it won’t be pretty).

    I don’t like power grabs. And I despise the Orange Man. But, really, this is not a crazy reaction to an extreme situation.

    I do agree that what Trump should have done is gone to Congress and asked for this as legislation. Unfortunately, we have a disfunctional Congress. If Trump says red, they say green.

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec) — 9/3/2020 @ 12:19 pm

    This is a reasonable take, but there’s no evidence that Trump has tried to get congress to work on this. Also, i expect the left will love this. They like expansions of power and I’m sure the next Dem administration will be happy to use this precedent.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  46. Complaining that politics sucks is bad but this is the 2nd time bomb that Trump has thrown at January 2021.

    An accrual of rents has been added to an accrual of payroll taxes that will need to be paid.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  47. That Henry Hill line from Goodfellas comes to mind- ‘F–k You. Pay me!’

    Yeah. Landlords and bankers. Quite a mob. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  48. ^ @47. “Business bad? Fvck you, pay me. Oh, you had a fire? Fvck you, pay me. Place got hit by lightning, huh? Fvck you, pay me.” – Henry Hill [Ray Liotta] ‘Goodfellas’ 1990

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. @45

    This is a reasonable take, but there’s no evidence that Trump has tried to get congress to work on this. Also, i expect the left will love this. They like expansions of power and I’m sure the next Dem administration will be happy to use this precedent.

    Time123 (9f42ee) — 9/3/2020 @ 12:33 pm

    Erm… his administration has been trying to pressure Congress to extend/pass additional COVID measures since the beginning.

    But, yes… you’re absolutely right that the “other team” gets a bat too. This is a bad, bad precedent.

    whembly (6c64a1)

  50. Erm… his administration has been trying to pressure Congress to extend/pass additional COVID measures since the beginning.

    Are you saying Trump proposed legislation and worked with Nancy Pelosi on passing a law with the effect of his unlawful order? Congress has a lot more authority over commerce.

    Trump’s second greatest failing has been his inability to make deals and get results by working with others, but if you have a link to Trump’s proposed legislation about rent let’s see it. Tweets are not proposed legislation.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  51. Trump’s second greatest failing has been his inability to make deals and get results by working with others…

    That would be news to the bookkeepers in Brussels coughing up money from NATO.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. That would be news to the bookkeepers in Brussels coughing up money from NATO.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:00 pm

    On foreign policy Trump is easily the worst president since Herbert Hoover. Yeah he calls Putin a lot about what he’s doing, and NATO is affected a lot by that, but NATO is certainly not in a better place today than it was four years ago, and neither is the USA compared to China, the Russians, even the Syrians or North Koreans. This is funny because Trump is so bothered by Obama who unjustifiably won a Nobel prize and Trump wanted to do better. But he didn’t.

    The best he’s got is spin.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  53. @49, Whembly, you’re right. This would have been part of the now stalled aid package. I was thinking to specifically about just rent. My claim was wrong.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  54. @51, if you look up spending by nato countries as a % of GDP there isn’t a huge improvement. Or you can look at the many other deals he hasn’t been able to close.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  55. #44 The comment below is a perfect example. All one can do is vote for Biden and hope that it results in a less corrupt and incompetent federal government. Given Trump there’s at least a small chance that it will. — only if you are completely ignorant of the history of the democrat party and of Joe Biden in Particular. The chance of a less corrupt or more competent Federal govt under Biden is precisely zero. You are engaging in wishful thinking because you hate Trump.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  56. The comment below is a perfect example. All one can do is vote for Biden and hope that it results in a less corrupt and incompetent federal government. Given Trump there’s at least a small chance that it will

    Hope, huh? Hope and change, amirite?

    At this point, Biden has been in the government pretty much his entire adult life. Tell me what he’s accomplished. Corrupt? He’s been in the pocket of credit card companies and banks his whole career. He lied about his law school rankings. He bragged about assassinating Americans without due process. Sat back and watched the destruction of Libya and never once tried to help the place after destabilizing it. He was “the sheriff” of Obama’s failed stimulus package.

    Literally everything Biden touches turns to crap. Except – strangely enough – his children’s bank accounts. Funny that.

    Here’s the thing about NeverTrumpers: they think they are the cool kids now that they’ve joined the “in” crowd – the Democrats. Please. Once the election is over, for better or worse, they will leave you high and dry.

    So keep lionizing Biden and the Democrats if you would like. But know that it won’t get you anywhere.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  57. only if you are completely ignorant of the history of the democrat party and of Joe Biden in Particular. The chance of a less corrupt or more competent Federal govt under Biden is precisely zero.

    Careful everyone! The KKK that endorsed Trump… 70 years ago they were democrats!

    Biden is telling you there’s no miracle coming. He isn’t the cure to all problems. Trump is telling you Putin didn’t really kill his rival and to vote twice.

    We’re at a turning point and partisanship brought us here. I don’t like biden but this is an emergency. Biden is like taking a Greyhound bus to cross the desert instead of riding with Ted Bundy.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  58. So keep lionizing Biden

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:26 pm

    If you cannot quote the person in this thread lionizing biden, what does that say about your integrity?

    Dustin (825e2c)

  59. On foreign policy Trump is easily the worst president since Herbert Hoover.

    True. He toppled a foreign government and then sat back and watched the country turn to crap, allowing half the territory to be controlled by ISIS.

    No, wait. That was Obama/Biden with Libya.

    Who can forget how he mugged with a hot head of state at a foreign funeral?

    No, wait. That was Obama with the Danish prime minister.

    More soldiers died in Afghanistan under Trump than any other president.

    No, wait. That was Obama.

    And then Trump allowed Mexican cartels to buy and smuggle US guns into Mexico.

    No, wait. That was Obama.

    And then Trump unleashed a computer virus to attack Iran. An opening salvo in an undeclared cyberwar.

    No, wait. That was Obama.

    Yeah, it has been quite a disaster. Endless war – just like the NeverTrumpers and Democrats (BIRM) predicted. American bodies littered everywhere.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  60. “Breaking911
    @Breaking911
    ·
    Community member at Biden meeting in Kenosha appears to have been given a scripted question:

    “I’m gonna be honest, Mr. Biden. I was told to go off this paper but I can’t.”

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1301609704477556738?s=20
    __ _

    harkin (cd4502)

  61. If you cannot quote the person in this thread lionizing biden, what does that say about your integrity?
    Dustin (825e2c) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:28 pm

    I was speaking about NeverTrumpers in general. If you feel I attacked you in some way, that speaks more about you than me.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  62. “I’m gonna be honest, Mr. Biden. I was told to go off this paper but I can’t.”

    https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1301609704477556738?s=20
    __ _
    harkin (cd4502) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:32 pm

    The only thing Democrats are good at building are Potemkin villages.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  63. So keep lionizing Biden and the Democrats if you would like. But know that it won’t get you anywhere.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:26 pm

    You were responding to my comment so I assume you’re confused about the difference between not and less.

    I’m sure Biden’s administration will be corrupt. But I think its reasonable to hope that he won’t abuse the powers of the presidency to extort a foreign government by withholding military ain in order get political favors, just to name 1 example.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  64. #58. So Dustin, how about a list of policies that Trump supports that you oppose, and a list of Policies that Biden Supports, that you support. Example 1 – abortion, Trumps position or Biden’s position. Etc.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  65. I was speaking about NeverTrumpers in general. If you feel I attacked you in some way, that speaks more about you than me.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:33 pm

    You warned us if we “keep lionizing Biden”. You were clearly talking about people here.

    Back up your claim, Hoi Polloi. Who here has lionized Biden?

    If you feel I attacked you in some way, that speaks more about you than me.

    In other words, you aren’t man enough to actually say you were talking about me or anyone else here, but you want to be clear that you are indeed saying something about me? Not exactly a manly way to speak.

    Who is lionizing Biden? Let’s see the quote. You made the claim. Back it up.

    Yeah, it has been quite a disaster. Endless war – just like the NeverTrumpers and Democrats (BIRM) predicted. American bodies littered everywhere.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:32 pm

    So you’re mad at Obama because of how bad Trump’s foreign policy is. Gotcha.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  66. @52. On foreign policy Trump is easily the worst president since Herbert Hoover.

    Helsinki remains unforgivable. NATO deadbeats coughing up; quite bankable.

    Still, the geopolitics of the planet have changed a great deal since Hoover. FDR, WW2; Cold War, etc. The post-WW2 and Cold War boom- ‘the American Century’ – dominated by the United States, born on December 7, 1941, peaked on July 20, 1969 and has been slowly eroding ever since- propped up by short term spurts of policy– and Reagan’s use of Uncle Sam’s AmEx Platinum Card. The USSR is gone; Russia a regional irritant w/nukes; China is steadily rising, still red but making plenty of green. And terrorists bugging everybody. This is simply an era of change with many paths of transition. It’s unsettling times to entrenched conservatives and traditional liberals as well. Donald Trump is a transient– a bridge to some place– or no place. But a change for sure– a new chapter w/fresh faces–and the old baggage left behind.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  67. So you’re mad at Obama because of how bad Trump’s foreign policy is. Gotcha.
    Dustin (825e2c) — 9/3/2020 @ 1:48 pm

    I see you are hot and bothered so your logic isn’t working too correctly.

    Obama’s foreign policy has been far worse than Trump’s. Obama overtly toppled a foreign government, bragged about it, then failed to help fix what he broke.

    When you can point to something Trump did along those lines, then we can have a discussion.

    Trump has offended some of the very serious people in the liberal cognoscenti, but in terms of needless wars and lives lost, he has been pretty good.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  68. Helsinki remains unforgivable. NATO deadbeats coughing up; quite bankable.

    Is it bankable? Trump’s leaving a massive military infrastucture investment in Germany. You can’t spend 100 times more money than you save and come out ahead. It’s like if I traded in my beater Honda for a new plug-in Tesla because I’m ‘saving money’.

    Wake up and look at our near-peer foes. Look at the cost of Putin, of Trump’s betrayal of the Kurds, of Trump inviting the people who gave safe harbor to Osama bin Laden to Camp David, of Trump telling china that if they help him, he will help them back with those camps.

    These are not cheap just because the costs are incalculable.

    Bankable?

    Dustin (825e2c)

  69. Hoi Polloi:

    Integrity.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  70. You warned us if we “keep lionizing Biden”. You were clearly talking about people here.

    If you believe yourself to be a NeverTrumper, that is on you. I’m pointing out the NeverTrumpers like SE Cupp or David French or the rest of the crew at the Bulwark.

    In other words, you aren’t man enough to actually say you were talking about me or anyone else here, but you want to be clear that you are indeed saying something about me? Not exactly a manly way to speak.

    Manly this and manly that. So easy to say from behind a keyboard.

    Hey, if you like Biden, but don’t want to admit you are a Democrat, that’s on you. Not me. So stop making this a question of “manliness.” Napoleon Complex anyone?

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  71. Integrity

    Dustin (825e2c)

  72. Trump inviting the people who gave safe harbor to Osama bin Laden to Camp David

    Trump learned something that Bush and Obama never did (and something foreigners have not learned for centuries): you aren’t going to defeat an Afghan insurgency. Taliban won’t be going away anytime soon. Sunk costs shouldn’t affect your decisions going forward, either.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  73. It should be easy to say ‘nevertrumpers basically do not like Biden and I was mistaken to claim nevertrumpers lionize him’

    Integrity isn’t easy for some people though. Interestingly, lacking integrity is actually harder than having it, and love and character might seem selfless but the bearer of those qualities benefits enormously.

    Just look at Trump to understand the principle. He’s failed to pay contractors, employees, lost all those fraud suits, even from people seeking an education. He hasn’t paid people who needed to feed their families, while he literally has a toilet made out of gold. Nothing Trump does will ever satisfy him that he is worthy of self-respect, so he has to keep digging. On 9/11/2001, his limited understanding of all that pain was that he can brag he has the tallest building in New York now. Is he worthy yet? Is he great?

    He’s tapped into the insecure punks of America. Maybe if they change the springs on their pickup trucks, get a new stock for their AR, scream at those lifetime conservatives who aren’t OK with a lawless president, maybe they are worthy.

    If voting for Biden makes these people cry, isn’t that something? it’s not really enough, but it’s something right?

    Dustin (825e2c)

  74. so you have an answer, you want to keep the country locked down, you want the end of fracking the end of the second amendment, that’s what the fake latino bobby o’rourke wants him, biden hired his campaign manager, like hiring the xo of the titanic,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  75. @69

    Hoi Polloi:

    Integrity.

    Dustin (825e2c) — 9/3/2020 @ 2:00 pm

    Wait…WAIIIIIIIIIIIT.

    WAITAMINUTE!

    Are you saying Biden has integrity??!?!

    That’s funny… you should do standup.

    whembly (6c64a1)

  76. By the way, tenants are still on the hook for the rent; it’s not forgiven but the consequences for non-payment are deferred until January, kind of like Trump’s payroll tax holiday for federal workers.

    Except that Biden is charging, without explaining his reasoning, he’s damaging Social Security.

    That’s an outright lie, because it is not true either according to the law as it stands, nor according to the way that Trump wants to change it, and no Congress is likely to change it in the way the Democratic Party says (forgiving the unpaid Social Security taxes, and not replacing it with other money) nor was that done with the partial reduction of Social Security taxes during the Obama Administration.

    The Democrats believe they can force a vote on the Social Security tax postponement and they are going into court to get a ruling that it qualifies or the kind of thing they can force a vote on. (It would still take a 2/3 majority to override Trump’s veto)

    All Democrats and most Republicans were against this Social Security tax forgiveness, which Trump liked maybe because of Larry Kudlow. It doesn’t particularly help people who were affected by the lockdowns.

    It’s voluntary for the businesses, and if the employee leaves by January, the business could get stuck with the employees share. Otherwise the employee could have more money taken out of his taxes in January. There doesn’t seem to be an intent to allow for the possibility of this being taken care of when a 2020 ax return is filed. Treasury has probably not finished writing the regulation – Trump of course wants he tax to be forgiven. It could take affect this week.

    Not only is it a lie that the Social Security trust fund would run out of money in 2023 if this is not changed (it would happen if the law is changed in a way that would be particularly suicidal by Congress to do – and if some FICA tax was ultimately unpaid it would be much less) that also would not eliminate Social Security payments but would cut it by some fraction like 25%.

    The Republicans also had a favorite misleading claim at their convention. That was that Democrats wanted to cut taxes for blue state millionaires. They didn’t explain, but that would restoring the full deductibility of state and local taxes. With the standard deduction so high, that mainly affects high income people. But it sounds only fair as otherwise you are taxing people on income they do not have. There’s an argument for the status quo but they didn’t want to explain what they were talking about.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  77. By the way, tenants are still on the hook for the rent; it’s not forgiven but the consequences for non-payment are deferred until January

    And there’s no plan here to say, get legislation authorizing either grants or loans to tenants or landlords.

    Here;s the New York Times story about this: (which sounds at least partially really Socialist by the way)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/01/business/eviction-moratorium-order.html

    The CDC cited Section 361 of the Public Health Service Act as authorizing the moratorium. It said any delay in the action “would be impracticable and contrary to the public health” given how easily the virus is spread and how many people have been infected. (this goes contrary to what Dr. Scott Atlas, Trump’s new coronavirus adviser is saying: that the disease will go away soon.)

    It becomes effective when published in the federal register on Friday. There will be an application and some five conditions will have to be met. For instance the inability to pay rent must be recent.

    Another condition is they have to attest that if evicted they would be rendered homeless or be forced to move into more crowded conditions. (by the way, more crowded conditions could be illegal because they wouldn’t be on the lease but that is not taken into account.)

    They also have to in some way have made an attempt to pay partial rent. Not clear at all what this could mean.

    Evictions for reasons other than an inability to pay rent can still proceed.

    It applies only to people who attest they expect their income to be less than $99,000 in 2020. This income ceiling is not for the total household but for each individual tenant (spouse domestic partner or roommate) is entitled to have income of $99,000. So a household could expect a lot more income than $99,000. There is no minimum but there is a requirement for some proof. Having received a stimulus check earlier this year would suffice.

    State laws that give more protection against eviction still apply.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  78. This is the Deep State doing Deep State things.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  79. #77 good post but I don’t understand the last paragraph. Restoring deductability of state and local taxes clearly results in lower taxes for blue state millionaire’s. There is nothing misleading about that statement.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  80. Trump’s decision to suspend payroll taxes and evictions is like buying a lavish Christmas with a credit card.

    norcal (a5428a)

  81. If you’re on the side of the guy ordering fans to vote twice, I want you to hate my guts. I will buy a democrat an ice cream cone if that makes you mad. Most democrats actually aren’t bad at all in my experience. Most of them pray to Jesus, think Antifa is nuts, want a safe community.

    I’ll vote for Biden, fully aware Trump is going to win a landslide now. A president calling for election cheating, who is above the law, that’s tough to overcome and Biden’s probably not inspiring enough a candidate to manage it.

    Binary choice this time. It’s an emergency. We’re at a turning point.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  82. 73. Dustin (825e2c) — 9/3/2020 @ 2:17 pm

    On 9/11/2001, his limited understanding of all that pain was that he can brag he has the tallest building in New York now.

    In Lower Manhattan (the Wall Street area) but not even that was true.

    He did lose the ability to build the tallest building in the world, which he planned to build in Chicago. TIME Magazine claimed in 2004 (reprinted in the 2006 TIME Almanac) that he was in Chicago for a meeting with the architect about that building on Sept 11, 2001 but I don’t know if that’s actually true. No other source confirms.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  83. A Biden administration might do something like pay down 5% of the mortgage for landlords who forgive and/or refund all 2020 rent after March. After all, it’s a STIMULUS, and what’s the difference between $23 trillion ant $24 trillion, really?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  84. 1DaveMac (4cc9b4) — 9/3/2020 @ 2:49 pm

    Restoring deductability of state and local taxes clearly results in lower taxes for blue state millionaire’s. There is nothing misleading about that statement.

    The Republicans didn’t explain. If they had, some people might said: “That’s only fair.” So they didn’t, leading many people probably to disbelieve that, which probably hurt them more.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  85. Binary choice this time. It’s an emergency. We’re at a turning point.

    That’s no reason to choose Harris. Biden is just a front for the loony left, and will be tossed aside in early 2023 anyway (health reasons), when Harris can run for re-election twice.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  86. The chance of a less corrupt or more competent Federal govt under Biden is precisely zero.

    More like the opposite. I’m confident that the chance of a less corrupt federal government under Biden is 100%. It would be hard for any president not named Trump who could preside with more corruption. I’m only reasonably confident that a Biden would be more competent than Trump, but only because Biden would hire and appoint staff who are more competent and not pick someone based on how big a suck-up the person is.
    Disclaimer: I’m not voting for Biden. As of September 3rd, I’m writing in Larry Hogan.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  87. @85

    The Republicans didn’t explain. If they had, some people might said: “That’s only fair.” So they didn’t, leading many people probably to disbelieve that, which probably hurt them more.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2) — 9/3/2020 @ 2:54 pm

    I think they did explain it and that it would hit the “more well off” of taxpayers.

    Why should the rest of the nations defray the cost of high tax areas?

    whembly (c30c83)

  88. @82 Dustin, do you really think Trump will win in a landslide? If there is any landslide, it will be for Biden. I frequent a BYU sports website with thousands of commenters. In prior elections the political discussions always had a 90-10 split for Republicans (maybe 95-5 for Romney because of the Mormon factor). This year it’s more like an 80-20 or 70-30 split. When the Republican president starts losing Mormon votes, the ship is going down.

    norcal (a5428a)

  89. A Biden administration might do something like pay down 5% of the mortgage for landlords who forgive and/or refund all 2020 rent after March. After all, it’s a STIMULUS, and what’s the difference between $23 trillion ant $24 trillion, really?

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/3/2020 @ 2:54 pm

    It’s definitely feeling like that. Both candidates might as well promise more and more, since the deficit is probably higher than the (damaged) GDP at this point. Someone will have to pay for all this stuff. This is a generation of burden both parties will create.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  90. the Secretary, is authorized to make and enforce such regulations as in his judgment are necessary to prevent the introduction, transmission, or spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the States or possessions, or from one State or possession into any other State or possession.

    Notice that that deals with foreign or interstate commerce?

    Now I guess, under Wickard, everything is interstate commerce.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  91. The reduction in the top federal rate (39.6 to 37%) was part and parcel of eliminating the SALT deduction. The result was a wash for most Blue State millionaires. Upper middle class folks, and less folks with big one-time gains, got stuck with the bill. Biden says that they will raise the to pate back to where it was, so the SALT elimination will not effect millionaires much.

    Maybe they’ll benefit in CA if they pass yet another “millionaires’ tax” and put the state rate at 16%. Assuming that 16% + an effective 32+% can be considered a win.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  92. Dustin, do you really think Trump will win in a landslide? If there is any landslide, it will be for Biden.

    Not fair and square, but I think Trump will win in a very controversial result, and the figures will not make a lot of sense from what we see. This will lead to tremendous instability and even louder weird distractions. Maybe a war. Maybe even a war with China.

    If every American voted a single time, Biden would obviously defeat Trump to a ridiculous margin. That a lot of folks don’t vote at all is on them, up to a point, but fear of going out and fear of using the mail is a problem this year. I think Trump is only gearing up for even more election misconduct. It’s like the South Lawn convention. Trump used to rail about Obama making campaign calls on AF1. He had a whole campaign convention at the white house. He wants to go as far beyond what is legal as he can. It’s like a child testing boundaries, learning there are no boundaries. What comes next? Good behavior or bad?

    Dustin (825e2c)

  93. *lesser folks

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  94. #88 larger government and more regulation = more corruption. Biden’s family has gotten wealthy through selling access to Biden. You are completely ignoring Biden’s career in the Senate and His actions as Vice President. You are blinded by your hatred of Trump.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  95. 89. whembly (c30c83) — 9/3/2020 @ 2:59 pm

    I think they did explain it and that it would hit the “more well off” of taxpayers.

    They didn;t exlain it at all

    Anybody who wasn’t a devoted Republican partisan and who also wasn’t already familiar with this probably thought they were lying.

    Why should the rest of the nations defray the cost of high tax areas?

    Should income taxes be based on levels of income or not?

    You could make a case in fact for even paying less in some states than others when nominal income was the same.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  96. Trump’s not calling for election cheating. He;s trying to create the impression that there was election cheating and get courts to rule that all mail ballots should be thrown out. A real, real, longshot.

    Failing that, he may be hoping to kick some states out of the Electoral College and win a majority of the remaining Electoral votes..

    Or at least maybe he dreams of doing that.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  97. It would be hard for any president not named Trump who could preside with more corruption.

    Trump is hardly the most corrupt president ever (not even close). Harding and Grant for starters.

    Not that corruption is even a primary reason to cast a vote. I’m sure that Lenin was squeaky-clean. If the come and take all you have, under color of law, what does it matter how scrupulously fair they are in their depredations?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  98. Trump’s not calling for election cheating

    No, he isn’t and you really have to be crazy with hate to think he is.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  99. The point that Trump, in his crass and foolish way, is trying to make is that you can have far more faith in the ballot you physically put in the ballot box than the one you cast upon the mails in the hope that none of several dozen bad things (some of them willful) will happen to your vote.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  100. #97 I understand your point now. Thanks.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  101. BTW, if you follow the electoral college gaming at RCP, Biden has a big, and very thin, lead. It relies on winning FL, NC, OH, MI, WI and MN — where he has only a few points lead and that lead is shrinking. Trump won all those states in 2016.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  102. @68. You drive a dented Honda on beat-up roads. Germans autobahn in BMWs and Mercedes.

    Wake up. QoL.

    It’s part of why he was elected. And why he’s going to get re-elected.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  103. No, he isn’t and you really have to be crazy with hate to think he is.

    Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/3/2020 @ 3:13 pm

    Call them like you see them. Trump told his fans to vote once and then vote a second time. His excuse that he’s just testing security is a joke, just as tearing up all those machines at the post office was a joke.

    Trump fans will be cheating at this election because Trump told them to.

    The point that Trump, in his crass and foolish way, is trying to make is

    is that you have a good excuse to vote multiple times.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  104. @ Dustin: It is not that I know Trump plans what I said @98 or even have confidence that’s his real election victory strategy. It’s that that’s the only underhanded thing he could be planning to do.

    And he would need many courts, and possibly, many Republicans in Congress, to let him do it.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  105. Communism.

    nk (1d9030)

  106. Now!

    nk (1d9030)

  107. Tierra y libertad!

    nk (1d9030)

  108. 82.If you’re on the side of the guy ordering fans to vote twice, I want you to hate my guts.

    He knows his audience.

    JR Ewing. The man everybody loves— or loves to hate. He’s going to win because the other party has nominated a loser.

    And he’s entertaining.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  109. @68. You drive a dented Honda on beat-up roads. Germans autobahn in BMWs and Mercedes.

    I just got this crazy dent in Lubbock, driving into Albuquerque. A rock kicked up from another vehicle. Definitely not the autobahn. NM is telling me I can’t leave my hotel room for two weeks so all I can do is stare out the window, where I can see the Sandia mountains and my damn Honda’s door. like 30 times now I’ve looked out the window, admired the mountain, groaned at the dent. Oh well, the car is worth like $2000.

    It’s part of why he was elected. And why he’s going to get re-elected.

    He’ll be re-elected because he is doing literally all he can to cheat. He had a whole convention at the white house, tore up a bunch of mail machines, and has told his fans to vote twice. There will always be loyal republican partisans who genuinely cannot find fault here. People are like that. But that’s why Trump will win.

    I understand the idea that Americans in fly-over states don’t have it good enough, vote for Trump against the elites, but I consider that a scam.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  110. Kevin M,

    Trump did not win Minnesota in 2016.

    norcal (a5428a)

  111. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 9/3/2020 @ 3:15 pm

    The point that Trump, in his crass and foolish way, is trying to make is that you can have far more faith in the ballot you physically put in the ballot box than the one you cast upon the mails in the hope that none of several dozen bad things (some of them willful) will happen to your vote.

    People who intend to vote for Trump will feel that way much more than people who intend to vote for Biden, resulting in a very disproportionate share of the mail in vote going for Biden, which Trump will then use to argue that all mail in votes in certain close states be thrown out, and he be declared the winner in those states.

    Even if that doesn’t succeed, maybe he could hope to prevent any Electors from that state being certified. And if that happens in enough states, he might have a majority of a diminished Electoral college.

    Of course Democrats cannot be expected to stand still, and they’ll arrange for certifications (and voting) of Democratic Electors. Sometimes maybe when they don’t have a case.

    Leaving it up to the new Congress to decide which votes to count.

    The closest precedent is the Election of 1876.

    The Democrats are changing their messaging. Now it’s either vote early by mail or vote later in person. Or at least drop off your absentee ballot at a polling site or special drop box.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  112. [Trump’s] going to win because the other party has nominated a loser.

    And he’s entertaining.

    DCSCA (797bc0) — 9/3/2020 @ 3:22 pm

    Granted. Biden is not the man to rise to the moment. I wish I could tell you you’re wrong and I have this inspired faith in some alternative to Trump but come on. Biden’s taken the easy path his whole life.

    @ Dustin: It is not that I know Trump plans what I said @98 or even have confidence that’s his real election victory strategy. It’s that that’s the only underhanded thing he could be planning to do.

    And he would need many courts, and possibly, many Republicans in Congress, to let him do it.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2) — 9/3/2020 @ 3:20 pm

    He might get in trouble down the road, but he’s above the law as long as he’s in office. He can just refuse to let impeachments work, his broken husk of a party will protect him beyond that. Simple.

    What we see is bad enough. Obviously there’s worse things we can’t see.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  113. One legal argument Trump could use would be that some votes were cast after November 3 and the constitution and the law says all Electors must be chosen on the same day throughout the United States. Maybe you could also argue early voting, but that ship has sailed)

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  114. Trump’s not calling for election cheating. He;s trying to create the impression that there was election cheating and get courts to rule that all mail ballots should be thrown out. A real, real, longshot.

    Failing that, he may be hoping to kick some states out of the Electoral College and win a majority of the remaining Electoral votes..

    Or at least maybe he dreams of doing that.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2) — 9/3/2020 @ 3:11 pm

    Trump fans will be voting twice. Because Trump told them to. It’s just a fact.

    you’re also right that Trump intends to cast as much doubt about American democracy as possible, fight mail-in ballots and any other outcome that disfavors him. There’s a whole muddy mess of a discussion to be had there.

    But point blank, simple: there will be Trump fans voting twice because Trump told them to. Certainly. There’s plenty more to say about it, but no more needed before I am decided on a Biden vote.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  115. Read here many times by many never trumpers Trump is not a republican, i agree. How can he be a rino?
    Selective lawyer verbiage?

    mg (8cbc69)

  116. @116 I agree that Trump has to go. I will contribute to that effort by not voting for him again.

    However, I’m not going to vote for Biden and contribute to him thinking he has a mandate from me for his harebrained policies. Nor am I going to give my assent to a looming Kamala Harris.

    No way.

    I’m only undecided on whether to vote for the Libertarian candidate or not cast a vote for President at all.

    I have previously ranted about binary choice, and normally that logic would apply, but Trump has thrown a wrench into the whole left-versus-right calculation. I hereby apologize to those I previously blasted for refusing to accept the notion of a binary choice.

    Even though binary choice is out, divided government is still relevant. Thus, I will be voting Republican in my Congressional race. Neither of Nevada’s senators are up for re-election this year.

    norcal (a5428a)

  117. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.

    He has disparaged the intelligence of soldiers, called POWs losers, demanded wounded vets be kept out of parades, demanded their street vendor shops be removed from Park Ave.

    Biden’s a draft dodger I’m guessing but at least he will show a little respect.

    Read here many times by many never trumpers Trump is not a republican, i agree. How can he be a rino?

    That’s what RINO means. That you’re not a real republican. that it’s just in name only. Trump flip flopped from supporting Pelosi, Schumer, Hillary, planned parenthood, gun bans, private health care, etc, into being a ‘republican’. The problem is the GOP decided to redefine itself. The GOP is the party of golf and wishing Ghilsaine Maxwell the best.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  118. Trump fans will need decades of practice to catch up to democrats when it comes to vote fraud.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  119. All Trump fans need to do is say the magic words, Black Lives Matter and they will be allowed to vote as many times as they like with no consequences.

    1DaveMac (4cc9b4)

  120. However, I’m not going to vote for Biden and contribute to him thinking he has a mandate from me for his harebrained policies. Nor am I going to give my assent to a looming Kamala Harris.

    No way.

    I don’t blame you for a second. Harris in particular, the radical stuff that represents, you are not obligated to support anybody you don’t support.

    In fact, it’s supporting the lesser of two evils that got us where we are today, with both parties producing such poor tickets.

    I have previously ranted about binary choice, and normally that logic would apply, but Trump has thrown a wrench into the whole left-versus-right calculation. I hereby apologize to those I previously blasted for refusing to accept the notion of a binary choice.

    I have been highly critical of binary choice reasoning and it is the reason the GOP kept getting worse and worse over the years. ‘what are you gonna do, support the democrats? hahaha!’

    But at this point, Trump is beyond the point where my concern about another Obama administration is a serious factor in my vote.

    Though my vote is not important when the president is cheating.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  121. Dustin (825e2c) — 9/3/2020 @ 3:37 pm

    But point blank, simple: there will be Trump fans voting twice because Trump told them to.

    Only one of those votes should be counted. (Trump was deriding North Carolina’s ability to make sure only one of those votes was counted.)

    No election system should depend on people not trying that.

    What can’t be stopped before the votes are mixed in is someone voting (probably absentee) in one state and in person in another.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  122. @122 But at this point, Trump is beyond the point where my concern about another Obama administration is a serious factor in my vote.

    I agree. Trump is so egregious that it’s not just about policy anymore (although this un-Constitutional eviction order IS bad policy).

    The best I can do is to harm Trump by withdrawing my support while not actively supporting Biden either.

    norcal (a5428a)

  123. A (nationwide?) poll mentioned on the CBS Evening News tonight said that 70% of Biden voters intend to vote by mail but only 20% of Trump voters.

    If they follow through (in states where both methods are an option) and the 2-party vote splits 50-50, about 69% of the in person votes could be for Trump and about 69% of mail-in ballots for Biden.

    This could create a massive blue shift as more mail in votes are counted.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  124. Only one of those votes should be counted.

    No excuse, sir.

    And a poor reassurance given how corrupt the GOP has become. So all this cheating only works if someone else fails to stop it, in an environment where ‘golly I guess that bad thing happened’ is the norm?

    No election system should depend on people not trying that.

    I agree. Yet no election system works if everyone does all they can to cheat, any more than any street works if every driver does all they can to wreck other cars. Leadership, cooperation, those are more important than enforcement.

    Dustin (825e2c)

  125. This is stupid, it’s anti-property rights, and doesn’t help anyone. Squatters already have rights which is why eviction is a procedure.

    Now that that’s out of the way, show me Biden’s plan. Thanks.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  126. Now that that’s out of the way, show me Biden’s plan. Thanks.

    Errm, follow 1,000 years of Anglo-Saxon landlord-tenant law?

    nk (1d9030)

  127. You’re welcome.

    nk (1d9030)

  128. Ahhhhhhh. Latrobe, PA. The new nickname unleashed: “Joe Hidin'”

    What. A. Showman.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  129. he would tell you, but his advisors would kill him, he was speaking of economic policy or some such,

    if dr. atlas and ionnides had been advising, we wouldn’t have shut down the whole country, but fauci recommended the choke hold, and here we are,

    bolivar de gris (7404b5)

  130. LOL @ Joe Hidin’.

    that’s probably a keeper.

    I’m quarantined in this hotel room going crazy so I’m not sure how many voters are going to look at an old man who is staying at home and think ‘what a bad choice’. But voting doesn’t matter if the president if the United States wants to cheat, so who cares?

    Dustin (825e2c)

  131. @119-
    That deserves its own post.

    Rip Murdock (d2a2a8)

  132. Why won’t you guys all admit the truth, that Trump is a Brezhnev-style Communist, where the nomenklatura lives like czars while the proletatiat suffers and the middle-class is an endangered species, when it’s right in front of your eyes?

    nk (1d9030)

  133. The Donald is better on camera than Leonid. But could he tap dance?!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  134. A (nationwide?) poll mentioned on the CBS Evening News tonight said that 70% of Biden voters intend to vote by mail but only 20% of Trump voters.

    If they follow through (in states where both methods are an option) and the 2-party vote splits 50-50, about 69% of the in person votes could be for Trump and about 69% of mail-in ballots for Biden.

    This could create a massive blue shift as more mail in votes are counted.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2) — 9/3/2020 @ 4:09 pm

    Just setting the table for massive mail in ballot fraud by the left as they’ve done for years.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  135. Errm, follow 1,000 years of Anglo-Saxon landlord-tenant law?

    nk (1d9030) — 9/3/2020 @ 4:30 pm

    Link please?

    I see him supporting BLM which demands free land, free money, free everything.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  136. Let me tell you another little secret, comrades. If a genuine realtors’ association does not bring suit to strike down this order, Trump will get a fake one to do it. Then he will order Barr to throw the case. Just like he did with Jones Day in the Muslim ban case. Just wait and see.

    nk (1d9030)

  137. Link please?

    Certainly.

    I see him supporting BLM which demands free land, free money, free everything.

    But you haven’t seen Trump actually, for real, for a fact, give free money (with his name on the check too) and just now free land?

    nk (1d9030)

  138. So you got nothing. Just hate. Thanks.

    NJRob (eb56c3)

  139. I showed you two things that Trump did, you showed me only scary imaginings about Biden, and it’s hate? Thank you for the flashback to the gay marriage debates. “Hate” was their mantra too.

    nk (1d9030)

  140. I knew the Trumpers would justify it, as they justify everything he does, but I was just curious how. “It’s the fault of the lockdowns” is the BS argument I should have seen coming.

    I don’t consider myself a Trumper. But why do you think there is such a rental crisis? Because millions of people are out of work and cannot pay their rent. And why is that? Until March or so, the economy was roaring, and there were even labor shortages in some sectors. Then COVID and the lockdown hit, severly affecting a large portion of the economy. So it is odd that you do not see the connection.

    Apart from that, if millions of families are evicted and forced to live in the streets or parks, what do you think will happen to social distancing? To the spread of Covid19? (Hint: it won’t be pretty).

    I don’t like power grabs. And I despise the Orange Man. But, really, this is not a crazy reaction to an extreme situation.

    I do agree that what Trump should have done is gone to Congress and asked for this as legislation. Unfortunately, we have a disfunctional Congress. If Trump says red, they say green.

    You’re not a Trumper, you’re just a fairly consistent anti-anti-Trumper, which I’m sure you think is very different.

    Yes, obviously the economic dislocation from the lockdown is causing unemployment, a shortage of income, and inability to pay the rent. My caustic comment was not intended to deny that obvious reality, but to note that Trumpers who oppose the lockdown (not believing it’s necessary) will cite the support of people like me who support it, so they can pretend that the CDC directive is a “necessary” salve intended to balm the completely avoidable economic pain resulting from the “unnecessary” lockdown.

    That’s the argument I am saying is BS.

    Part of what it avoids is the necessity of the lockdowns, but it also avoids (as do you) any responsibility to examine the power grab. Indeed, folks like Bolivar aka narciso and you — no Trumper you! — invoke the very mantra of the Obama administration that you criticized when Obama invoked it: “Hey, something needs to be done, so if Congress won’t act, the President will!”

    If you criticized that then, but you’re fine with it now, you *might* be a redneck but you’re *definitely* a hypocrite.

    Oh, I know, Bored Lawyer: you did indeed type the words “I don’t like power grabs. And I despise the Orange Man.”

    But then you followed it with this:

    But, really, this is not a crazy reaction to an extreme situation.

    I do agree that what Trump should have done is gone to Congress and asked for this as legislation. Unfortunately, we have a d[y]sfunctional Congress. If Trump says red, they say green.

    Let’s play that with Obama.

    “Gosh, I sure do hate power grabs, and heaven knows I’m no Obama fan. But gee, look at what these GOP types want to do! They want to deny the dreamers legal status. So hey, when you have a Congress that won’t act, what can you do?”

    Or:

    “I don’t consider myself an Obama supporter. And nobody is more against executive overreach than I am! Nobody!!1! But look at all these children getting gunned down at school! And Congress won’t do a thing! So if Obama has a pen and a phone, my goodness, as a total opponent of Obama and his overreach, I see these attempts to take away these dangerous assault thingies and I can’t help but shrug!”

    That was you during Obama, right? OK, then, I guess you are consistent now! (hey Siri insert eyeroll emoji)

    Patterico (115b1f)

  141. This is a reasonable take

    No, it’s an unreasonable take posing as a reasonable take.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  142. #88 larger government and more regulation = more corruption.

    That’s one view but, working with you here, Trump has massively increased spending–deficit spending–and lessened regulation somewhat has to mean that Trump is on the “more corruption” side of the ledger, and that doesn’t even count all his personal corruption and his corruption of the departments he presides over. But yours is not the only way to measure corruption, 1DM.
    And let’s be clear about your “hate” accusation because you’re mindreading, which is an intellectually lazy and dishonest practice. The actual emotion I have toward Trump is contempt, both as a man and as a president.

    Paul Montagu (a2078e)

  143. @142 — Gee, I must have hit a nerve.

    You’re not a Trumper, you’re just a fairly consistent anti-anti-Trumper, which I’m sure you think is very different.

    Yes, they are different. I did not vote for Trump in 2016, and until recently was not even considering voting for him. (To be fair, as a heavily blue state resident, I have the luxury of casting a protest vote.) I have criticized Trump here and elsewhere in harsh terms.

    But I reject criticisms of Trump, of which there are many, that are wildly exaggerated and unhinged. Of which there are many, including right here on this blog. I don’t let Trump live in my head the way many do. I evaluate what he says and does on the merits, not knee-jerkedly. And reject obscene comparisons, like Trump = Hitler. (Sorry, Hitler and his henchmen murdered large portions of my grandparents’ relatives. Trump is miles away from that. So I find the comparison obscene.)

    Rather than going through the rest of your response, let me ask you: what would you do now if you were Trump? You can do nothing, let millons be evicted, and watch the rate of COVID19 deaths soar from the hundreds of thousands to the millions. Or you can do what he did. Or maybe you have some alternative plan. Can you clue us in on what you would do?

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  144. BTW, I will answer my own question in @145.

    What I would advise the president to do is:

    (1) Order someone to draft emergency legislation giving the president the power to ban evictions for the next 12 months.

    (2) Send it to the Congressional leadership, with a letter explaining why it is needed to avoid a serious health and economic crisis.

    (3) Address the nation, explain that this legislation is needed to avoid not only the misery of millions being evicted, but increased COVID infections that will multiply deaths ten-fold. And ask everyone to immediately contact their Congressman and Senators and push to have this passed ASAP.

    This is what a real leader like, say, Ronald Reagan, would do. Unfortunately, we have a used-car salesman for president, and in this political climate, the result would likely be failure. (Although it would be great politics. So Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer, are you in favor for evicting people? And Mr. Biden, what are your thoughts about this proposal?)

    Bored Lawyer (7b72ec)

  145. You can do nothing, let millons be evicted, and watch the rate of COVID19 deaths soar from the hundreds of thousands to the millions. Or you can do what he did. Or maybe you have some alternative plan. Can you clue us in on what you would do?

    Not every Trump spit bubble is a national emergency that requires an alternative plan.

    You can do nothing, let millons be evicted, and watch the rate of COVID19 deaths soar from the hundreds of thousands to the millions.

    Why now and not on March 1, then?

    Or maybe you have some alternative plan. Can you clue us in on what you would do?

    Real estate is in rem. There’s a 1,000 years of common law that says what to, in the jursidictions where the virus-spreading evictions that sat around for six months just biding their time will chimerically occur.

    nk (1d9030)

  146. what to *do*

    nk (1d9030)

  147. I don;t think there’s a great danger of very many cases.

    As I understand it, most droplets do not contain any virus particles, and for most people well more than one infected droplet is needed to cause disease, but a person can emit thousands of them.

    Most droplets, regardless of size will contain only one infected spot, but a bigger one probably has a greater chance of having one..

    What counts is ventilation, and sunlight, so that there does not build up a concentration of infected droplets.

    Sammy Finkelman (b66da2)

  148. 145. I’m with Bored Lawyer here. I don’t need “four unnamed sources” to tell me what kind of person Donald J. Trump is.

    Trump’s penchant for screwing contractors, to the point of shamelessly putting them out of business, is a matter of public record.

    Trump’s use of bankruptcy to screw his creditors out of their due is not only a matter of public record, but was well-documented throughout the 80’s and 90’s.

    Trump’s use of government-backed force in the form of eminent domain to try to screw people out of their private homes and businesses was, in fact, so routine, it never made headlines except in cases like Vera Coking where it failed. Again, a matter of public record.

    If Trump humpers can overlook these abuses as mere “character flaws,” there’s no way in hell “four unnamed sources” are going to change their minds.

    Gryph (f63000)

  149. This is being taken to court… good:
    https://reason.com/2020/09/08/ncla-challenges-cdcs-eviction-moratorium/

    This case presents a kitchen sink of constitutional claims. Count I alleges a violation of the APA. Count II alleges a violation of the right to access courts. Count III alleges a violation of the Supremacy Clause–the moratorium is not a law. Count IV raise a Contracts Clause claim. Count IV raises commandeering arguments with respect to the state courts. (The brief argues that the CDC cannot “Strip state courts of jurisdiction to process eviction cases”; I wrote about this issue here.) Count VI raises the non-delegation doctrine. Count VII argues that the order suspends state law (this argument is connected to the Suspension Clause).

    They came loaded for bear…

    whembly (c30c83)


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