Patterico's Pontifications

6/23/2020

After Deadly Shootings, Seattle Mayor Decides Police Need To Return to East Precinct

Filed under: General — Dana @ 8:32 am



[guest post by Dana]

What it took for Seattle’s Mayor Durkan to finally take action in Seattle’s hot spot:

Early Saturday, one man was killed and another person was critically wounded in a shooting at 10th and Pine. 19-year-old Renton High student Lorenzo Anderson died in an incident that has become a flashpoint of controversy with police restricting their presence in the area following the emptying of the East Precinct headquarters and Seattle Fire’s limited abilities to respond without police presence…Despite the effort, Sunday night brought another shooting on the edge of Cal Anderson that sent a 17-year-old to the hospital…In addition to the weekend shootings, Seattle Police are also investigating a sex assault at the camp reported Thursday.

Better late than never, eh?

What she finally realized:

Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan says the Seattle Police Department needs to return to the East Precinct to be able to respond to calls from the community.

During a news conference Monday, the mayor said SPD will return to the precinct, peacefully and in the near future.

“We have to make sure that any resident, any business, or any visitor that calls for help gets the help they need,” Durkan said.

As for the CHOP, Durkan said it wouldn’t be wise for police officers to clear out the area. Instead, the city is working with community leaders and organizers to help reduce the number of people in the area and clean up the streets, buildings, and remove barriers.

Durkan recognized that the majority of people in the CHOP are peaceful and spreading an important message, but said the situation is very different at night. The circumstances are also increasingly difficult for businesses and residents, she added.

The mayor believes individuals and organizations can continue to gather peacefully in Capitol Hill and elsewhere in the city, but the disorder and the impact of violence in Capitol Hill is at odds with the message of justice and equity.

Police Chief Best listed off the criminal acts repotedly happening inside the CHOP:

The chief said several criminal acts have been reported in the days since her officers left the precinct building. She said the incidents included shootings, rape, assaults, burglary and property destruction.

“I’m not making this up,” Best said. “These things happened. Our officers need to get back into the East Precinct.”

At Saturday’s Tulsa rally, Trump singled out Seattle:

“But how about Seattle?” Trump asked, with the crowd responding by booing the city.

“So, they take over a big chunk of a city called Seattle. We are not talking about some little place. We’re talking about Seattle. Have you ever been to Seattle?” Trump said. “They took over a big chunk. And the governor who is radical left — all of these places I talk about are Democrat. You know that. Every one of them.”

Trump said he offered assistance in the matter but was turned down and appeared to dismiss the situation.

“Any time you want, we’ll come in. We’ll straighten it out in one hour or less. Now I may be wrong, but it’s probably better for us to just to watch that disaster,” Trump said. The president went on to say he asked lawmakers about the situation and that they encouraged him to not act.

“Congressman, what do you think? I can straighten it out fast. Can we just go in?” Trump said. “‘No, sir, let it simmer for a little while. Let people see what radical-left Democrats will do to our country.’”

And speaking of “autonomous zones,” Trump warned this morning that it’s not an option in D.C.:

–Dana

79 Responses to “After Deadly Shootings, Seattle Mayor Decides Police Need To Return to East Precinct”

  1. Good morning.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  2. A if Washington D.C.’s existing zone of irrationality isn’t enough.

    John B Boddie (f44786)

  3. Capital Hill has had a serious crime problem for a looonngg time.

    Last year:
    There was a shooting of 3 on Dec 29.
    Two on Oct 5
    One on June 25th
    2 on May 10th

    Of course there was the Capitol Hill Massacre that killed 6 with 8 shot in 2006.

    I don’t think we’ll ever know if crime actually went up or down during the 3 weeks. Vandalism has surely increased property damage, but much of the area was closed up already, but it was also at the top of the list of high crime areas of Seattle.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  4. I still haven’t gotten there yet. Missing all the action.

    Paul Montagu (d27749)

  5. I think the Mayor is handling this pretty well. I think the strategy of letting them run out of steam (which is inevitable) is a good one, but given 2 killings they need to do something different.

    Part of this is PR both outside of and inside of the crazy zone, i have to hope that this reduces the number of people that want LEO out.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  6. I hope that Victor weighs in on this. I’d like to know if he’s made a recent visit to the CHOP, and what his firsthand take is on the changes there.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  7. CHOP won’t end well. Durkan will have blood on her hands, more than she does now of course.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  8. “ What it took for Seattle’s Mayor Durkan to finally take action in Seattle’s hot spot:”

    Has she taken any action yet?

    I wouldn’t be surprised if part of this sudden 180 from ‘its just like a street fair’ and ‘summer of love atmosphere’ to seeking to end it may be from Trump using it as an example of Dem. leadership at his rally plus a billion dollar firm announcing they are relocating out of the Emerald Sh**hole.
    __ _

    “I think the Mayor is handling this pretty well.“

    Check out ‘mayor jenny’ on Twitter. She’s being universally condemned by residents left, right and center.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  9. But we were told that it was all gardens, peace and love. Even had people posting defending this as just Seattle being Seattle. Say it ain’t so, Joe.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  10. https://nypost.com/2020/06/20/my-terrifying-5-day-stay-inside-seattles-autonomous-zone/

    There’s plenty of real reporting on this leftist enclave of violence and destruction. You just have to look for it.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  11. Has she taken any action yet?

    When seconds count, the police are weeks away.

    nk (1d9030)

  12. Here’s my favorite quote from Andy…i wonder if it was the snacks that terrorized him.

    When they viewed me as one of their own, they were incredibly kind. They offered me water and snacks throughout the day.

    Time123 (ea2b98)

  13. Her Twitter thread responses are overwhelmingly negative……even though Twitter appears to be deleting many as they come in:

    Mark Z
    @LFCchamps0000

    Replying to
    @MayorJenny

    Twitter doing it’s best to keep Jenny in the game..[video of responses disappearing]

    https://twitter.com/LFCchamps0000/status/1275243340343246848?s=20
    __ _

    Biz Idea Spy
    @BizIdeaSpy
    ·
    they could have been a LITTLE more discreet about it. lol
    __ _

    Four leaf clover
    @SeaUrchin96825

    Twitter has blocked people’s comments in this thread, it only allows Mayor’s tweets to appear. Only till the very last I could see these comments.
    Unbelievable that Twitter is covering her behind
    __ _

    QwinE
    @Ether_11_11
    ·
    I saw a reply saying ‘ Seattle please vote Republican’ disappear right before my eyes as i was reading it smh.
    __ _

    harkin (9c4571)

  14. dana,

    I’ve been visiting the CHOP every day for a week now, but only during the day and occasional early evening. To be accurate, there’s been four shootings, but only one killing, all late at night or in early morning.

    I guess some of the points I’d make regarding violence is 1) as others have noted it’s not like this neighborhood hasn’t had violence before, including shooting. However four in three nights is unusual.

    2) the police are being a little disingenuous in their accounts, of being prevented from coming in . If you look at a video shot by an amateur journalist Omar Salisbury, on the night of the two shootings, the police waited outside to form into a group of heavily shielded cops with guns out, and a bullhorn and arrived mintues after the victim had already gone to the hospital after being treated by volunteer medics. The police were met by a crowd of people yelling various things at them, mostly that the victims were already gone, and then decided to retreat followed by a crowd, some who wanted to shove the police some who wanted to protect the police from the shovers.

    In short there’s a huge failure of communication and the police are happy to treat the place as a dangerous and violent zone when mostly it’s just shouty and disorganized and some people like to shove.

    3) over the week the weaknesses of trying to self organize a space occupied by several different groups with different agendas becomes apparent. The black lives matter protestors saw the protests and city wide policy changes as their main focus and the CHOP as a staging and organizing area, but not the prize in itself. I think a lot of their interest was in the police station and how its use or abandonment figures into the larger questions of policing.

    Meanwhile whole bunches of other people were coming in with ideas of building a self run community, with resources for the homeless, or activities around art/protest/racism conversations etc. And a lot of energy was spent putting together a community garden and tent city. Who was leading CHOP as between this residential group and the BLM group was never resolved or even really faced up to.

    Meanwhile at night you had beleaguered volunteer medics/security trying to deal with a situation where others found it a great place to come and mess around. Some people just like a place they can do drugs.

    I don’t know that anybody has figured out who was doing the shootings. The most common rumor I’ve heard is that it was alcohol fueled disputes by outsiders that ended up with gunfire. I guess the only differnce with what would have happened without the CHOP is that perhaps people felt more willing to show up with guns if they don’t thnk the police are going to show up.

    4) I can say as the casual tourist/visitor that I never felt unsafe on my day trips. I was surrounded by a bunch of well meaning people who disagreed with each other about how to deal with the place and often spoke and argued in slogans.

    A couple of times I witnesses disputes – whether to attempt to occupy the police station – what to do with a street preacher who insisted on climbing atop a backstop and using sound equipment to preach to everybody. And in those disputes there was pushing and shoving sometimes, as well as a bunch of people yelling don’t shove, or don’t use violence. In short normal human behavior by frustrated people attempting to police a situation without being able to fall back on external authority.

    The people stopping the attempt to break into the police station prevailed (after a lot of shouting) over those who did want to break in. After bodily carrying the preacher out a few times, he was eventually allowed to climb the backstop and preach to people for awhile. Later I’m told he’d wander around followed by people talking over him until he got tired and left.

    5) It’s an interesting experiment and it’s starting to dissolve. I was talking to a couple people in tents last night who shrugged when I said the police may come at some point to clear the place. Where are we going to go? he asked.

    Victor (a225f9)

  15. 6) One more point. On every day of CHOP and perhaps still, groups of 10-20 people (at a time, more over the day) would be gathering on sofas and chairs to talk with other people about racism – The Conversation Café. I’m not sure anything quite like that would be happening elsewhere. I never participated in the conversation, because I’m shy, but did watch. I never saw a really heated argument. I did see a lot of earnest people leaning in to hear from others.

    7) I think there’s a split in CHOP (at least based on what I heard last night when observing a meeting) between those who want to focus more on a protest movement and not try to defend the space and 2) those (particularly the ones in the tents and the garden) who want to defend the space. I’ve no idea what it will come to. Mayor Durkan is trying to do it slow, but humans being humans I assume there’ll be a flash point.

    Victor (a225f9)

  16. “ I don’t know that anybody has figured out who was doing the shootings.”
    _

    Imagine that:

    https://twitter.com/SCCacti/status/1274948055217864706?s=20
    __ _

    harkin (9c4571)

  17. “One more point. On every day of CHOP and perhaps still, groups of 10-20 people (at a time, more over the day) would be gathering on sofas and chairs to talk with other people about racism – The Conversation Café. I’m not sure anything quite like that would be happening elsewhere.
    _

    Seriously?
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  18. Victor, fascinating comments! Be safe!

    Dustin (e3a6ae)

  19. Harkin,

    If you are aware of ongoing Conversation areas like the one I described in some other city (outdoors, among strangers, free coffee) I’d be curious. I’m not, but I think it’s a good idea.

    As for the guy who got his phone confiscated, yeah that sucked. I heard some people complaining about it at the assembly last night. There’s a problem with volunteer security people not really knowing how to handle crises and improvising.

    And I also think it’s a problem that the CHOP security people do not seem to have established (based only on reporting) clear ways of communicating with police/medics about what’s going on . I suspect this may also be partly the fault of the police who seem to have an attitude sometimes of all or nothing, but I’m sure both sides are probably being stubborn about it. In some ways, in terms of suspiciion and distrust, and instinctive moves to confront, they resemble each other.

    Victor (a225f9)

  20. Dustin,

    Thanks!

    Victor (a225f9)

  21. So much for Teh Mayor’s Summer of Love…

    Bummer in the Summer is more like it.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  22. I never heard anybody in CHOP, or read any of the graffiti, that described it as a Summer of Love. If anything the opposite – a lot of energy was towards keeping it as a protest zone, albeit a self administered one.

    Victor (a225f9)

  23. Victor –

    My question is why anyone could imply it was necessary for a lawless mob to take over city blocks, commit assault, theft, mayhem etc., shut down a police station etc. in total disregard to the residents and businesses that depend on them in order for people to peaceably congregate outdoors and discuss current events.

    All that is covered in the constitution.

    I saw this:

    “But Victoria Beach, chair of the police department’s African American Community Advisory Council, said Durkan’s stance is giving license to a lawless party.

    CHOP “has nothing to do with black lives or what happened to George Floyd. I feel like it’s not honoring or respecting him,” Beach told “Nightline.”

    “It’s not a protest … I call it Burning Man,” Beach said. “It’s very disrespectful. The message is totally taken away.”

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/inside-seattles-autonomous-zone-residents-enact-change/story?id=71295394

    Based on what she says and by the numerous complaints I’ve been seeing by the locals, I agree with her portrayal of this circus much more than the apparent down-playing I’m seeing in media (and on blogs)……when it plays at all.
    __

    Here’s more:

    “ “I was protesting prior to the opening of CHOP or CHAZ but now I don’t know what I’m really supporting if I were to go to CHAZ or linger around, because it’s a different movement,” the man, who chose to remain unidentified, added.

    “Even if I want to move out, I can’t move out because I can’t even bring a moving truck there,” he told the outlet. “Hence why I moved to a hotel yesterday; I’ll be staying there for at least a week but I have no idea what’s next.”

    He is not alone in his concerns. John McDermott, co-owner of Car Tender on Capitol Hill, explained this week that he called 911 several times to report a burglary and claimed that no one showed up.

    “There were no police officers on scene ever. And I was here all night long,” said McDermott, who temporarily detained the suspect with his son, according to King5:

    McDermott and his son detained the burglar and were able to put out the fire themselves, but eventually, let the man go. A video, live-streamed online, shows a mob of protesters from the CHOP taking custody of the man and searching him – they also let him go.

    When asked about the situation directly Monday afternoon, Seattle Police Chief Carmen Best said her officers didn’t have a good contact number for the business owner. In an email, an SPD spokesperson said a police report was taken of the incident.

    Chief Best added that police will only respond inside the boundaries of the CHOP if there is a direct threat to life and safety.

    “We’re just trying to run a small business, make a living, be good members of society, and try to be good neighbors to the neighborhood and I think we’ve really been let down by the mayor’s office, the Seattle Police Department and the fire department,” McDermott added.

    Seattle Police Chief Carmen Best said last week that officers have been unable to respond to “rapes, robberies, and all sorts of violent acts” occurring in Seattle’s East Precinct due to the police evacuating the precinct in the autonomous zone.“

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/06/17/residents-within-seattles-chaz-at-a-loss-im-mainly-scared-because-i-know-cops-wont-come/
    __ _

    I’m incredulous that sane people can portray this lawlessness as
    good or harmless or ‘progressive’ in any way.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  24. Harkin,

    Unfortunately I can’t spend too much longer on this right now, and am also aware that nothing I will say will ultimately satisfy you. You have certain presets and you’re looking for information to support them, and you will find it.

    But, briefly,

    I did not mean to imply the Conversation café was a justification for anything bad that happened. I just thought it was an interesting and distinctive aspect of the CHOP.

    I disagree with your characterization of the CHOP as a place run by a lawless mob. It was an unpoliced and occasionally disorganized bunch of people attempting to set their own laws and rules, sometimes unsuccessfully.

    The mob, as you like to call it, didn’t do the shootings or the killings or break into the car shop (though apparently some did beat up the thief afterwards). The people who run CHOP just didn’t do a very good job of dealing with these events.

    I agree that people living in the blocks affected would have been severely inconvenienced if trying to move lots of stuff around, e.g. moving truck. I don’t know that CHOP people would have objected per se ,but finding someone to deal with any of the obstructions in the way might have been difficult.

    Victoria Beach has a point as regards protest. The energy in trying to maintain a zone, whatever it’s called, took away from the message of protest. People on site were very aware of this and very frustrated by it. Except for those who really liked the idea of their own tent/garden/Coop / art space.

    Sometimes it was good, most of it was harmless, or at least not really permanently harmful. I don’t know what progressives think about it generally, but I did hear some speaking last night who said that even if it did go away, the experience of working together and finding connections around the idea of self-government and black leadership was valuable.

    Victor (a225f9)

  25. The timing seems about right for it to start to disperse, even if the mayor doesn’t do all that much.

    Nic (896fdf)

  26. @26. Figure by July 4 weekend; the cameras will find fresh images.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  27. “ Unfortunately I can’t spend too much longer on this right now, and am also aware that nothing I will say will ultimately satisfy you. You have certain presets and you’re looking for information to support them, and you will find it.”
    __ _

    My statement to you was an honest attempt to convey how wrong I thought you were.

    But I am grateful for you laying out your assumptions and projections so starkly.

    I truthfully laid out that the negatives for people whose lives and businesses have been destroyed, damaged, looted, threatened, disturbed, relocated etc. by the taking over of city blocks by a mob far outweigh any positives. I mean, even the dysfunctional mayor seems to be coming out of her Summer Of Love coma. I’m not sure though about the city council and governor.

    I do consider it a small point of agreement however that you concede that a resident seeking to escape this madness and remove his belongings may have found concrete barriers painted with ‘COP-FREE ZONE’ and ‘NO PIGS’ a bit problematic.

    Maybe when you do have more time you can let me know how discussions on black on black crime in Democratic-run cities or capitalism vs communism in regards to lifting minorities out of poverty are received at the couch circle of enlightenment.
    _

    harkin (4cf812)

  28. “My statement to you was an honest attempt to convey how wrong I thought you were.

    But I am grateful for you laying out your assumptions and projections so starkly.”

    Based on the rest of your comments, I think he was spot on.

    Davethulhu (9921df)

  29. 23… I never heard anybody in CHOP, or read any of the graffiti, that described it as a Summer of Love.

    That’s what Seattle’s mayor called it, her own words.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  30. Victor? Next time you dive in, please pass my GFY’s all around.

    Thanks!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  31. GFY? Not sure what you want me to do there.

    I am just back from another look, curious as to the changes overnight. I know the Patterico commentariat is not eager for the opinions of an opinionated liberal, so I’ll try to keep it factual.

    There aren’t many changes. A few tents and tent/car camping sites are gone, but most of the tents still remain. At every entrance are signs saying “We won’t leave until…” and then a list of three demands (Defund police 50%, money to black communities, getting protestors out of jail”.

    There’s also a new barricade on Pine halfway between 12th and 13th, put up by CHOP.

    I talked to a few people. They said nothing had happened last night regarding police. None mentioned the shooting, though I did overhear one guy earnestly explaining to some others that the shootings had nothing to do with CHOP, it was outsiders.

    I had a pleasant conversation with the brother of John Williams, a Native American woodcarver who was old, disabled and partly deaf and killed by a police officer in 2010 when he didn’t respond quickly enough (within 4 seconds. I’ve heard the audio) to the officer’s demand he drop his three inch wood carving knife. (It was this incident that led to a federal investigation of the Seattle Police Force) The brother was a genial man, whose been hanging around CHOP for two weeks. He helped defuse the confrontation over trying to break into the police building, telling people they needed to be reasonable. He also, though, last night told people they should stand their ground.

    There’s not as many people on the street, fewer tourists. Still there were a few, including a couple with some small children. There seemed a little tension. At the coop one of the staff there admonished another not to use her real name while talking in public. The conversation cafeé had fewer people.

    I don’t know what the mayor is going to do. I think she’s smart to make it slow and wear people out. The porta-potties are still being serviced and there’s not a hint of police anywhere. But, purely guessing, I think there’ll be more of a move tonight.

    Harkin,

    Given your concern about the guy with the theoretical future moving truck, I was interested to watch an actual truck make a delivery to a restaurant open on Pine between 12th and 13th, between some barricades. When he was done he drove up to a barricade on 13th, where four people were sitting in chairs. One moved the barricade out of his way, and then put it back. I admit though, looking at clearances, that I;m not sure a large moving truck would fit.

    As for your concern that I am simply dismissing having a reasonable conversation with you, well, I wish there were some other way of making the basic point that short of sitting on a couch with some free tea and really hashing it out, I don’t think we’d succeed. You keep sticking to your understanding that “lives and businesses have been destroyed, damaged, looted, threatened, disturbed, relocated etc. by the taking over of city blocks by a mob” . I disagree that is a really good description of what happened, or at least a reasonable shorthand for all that happened however happy you are to find particular examples of each horror.

    And your insistence that a conversation on racism must start with black on black crime is kind of telling. I mean I am not part of the black community so anything I say is third hand. But the voices in the community I’ve read point out that black people don’t like getting shot either, and that they’d be happy to have good police work with them to stop it, but that what they get instead are assholes who keep shoving their children up against walls for no reason but disappear when actually needed. If I were going to be part of a discussion about black on black crime I’d love to have a black person there who has experienced it to keep it grounded.

    Anyway back to other work. I’ll try to answer questions as time allows and not be so long winded.

    Victor (a225f9)

  32. I don’t know that anybody has figured out who was doing the shootings. The most common rumor I’ve heard is that it was alcohol fueled disputes by outsiders that ended up with gunfire.

    Thanks for the reporting, Victor. What constitutes an “outsider” in the CHAZ/CHOP world? Is there some noticeable difference between the people in the camp who already live in that neighborhood versus those who live elsewhere? Are you considered one of the “outsiders” and if so, do you feel that you are treated differently from a “local”?

    JVW (ee64e4)

  33. Victor,

    Thanks for your input and observations! I really appreciate the firsthand view, and the deliberate effort to just report what you see and hear without necessarily invoking a political perspective. Your comments add nuance and context to a generalized post, and as a guest contributor to the site, I am glad to have such resources available.

    With that, I suppose the next week or so will determine whether the slow-approach by the mayor was the best route to take. I don’t have a handle on the numbers of businesses that have been adversely impacted by the CHOP, nor if any residents have been kept away from their homes or compelled to leave for safety reasons.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  34. Maybe when you do have more time you can let me know how discussions on black on black crime in Democratic-run cities or capitalism vs communism in regards to lifting minorities out of poverty are received at the couch circle of enlightenment.

    I read this from a black pastor, and I believe that he makes a good point:

    We need to talk about the problem of “black on black” crime. We need to talk about the problem of fatherlessness. We need to talk about the problem of abortion.

    But we need to talk about them as PROBLEMS to b solved for the purpose of REDEMPTION, not as ARGUMENTS to be made for the purpose of SILENCING.

    Imagine if every time my pointed out a problem with me, I quickly pointed out 10 problems with her. What would you say about me? Insensitive? Loveless? Lacking compassion?

    There are always other problems , maybe even bigger problems. Many of us have been talking about these problems for years, but like the racism, problem have been ignored.

    But I seriously question the motives of someone whose solution to a problem is pointing out other problems. I don’t believe it’s about the problem at that point, it’s about you.</blockquote

    Dana (25e0dc)

  35. Victor, ditto on the appreciation for you posting what you see.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  36. JVW,

    That’s a good question; who counts as an outsider? It will depend in part on who you ask. I was talking to one woman who comes every day and sets up a tent with free sanitizing material and flyers and information regarding her dead son, who died of a fentanyl overdose due in part (she believes) to police negligence. She doesn’t stay the night. I think she feels a little bit like an outsider but people treat her well and warned her when they thought the police were coming.

    My best answer is that you’re an outsider if you don’t stay overnight or aren’t there often and hang out in small group discussions.

    I am definitely an outsider. It’s only been a problem once. Normally people are perfectly happy to talk to me about what’s going on or let me take pictures of their signs. But it’s true last night, I was hanging out near a fairly tense discussion on what to do to defend the space from the feared police, and I was making notes on a little pad of paper. I started to walk away but was followed by a guy who asked me, somewhat brusquely, to show him the pad. I said I wanted to keep the pad but let him look at my page of notes. He glanced at one page for 2-3 seconds and handed it back. Then i asked him why, and he said there’d been problems with provocateurs and police spies.

    So yes, if you hang around a small decision making group taking notes without introducing yourself you’ll get some suspicion. But my guess is that this would be often true.

    Dana,
    Thanks! And your quote seems about right. People talking about “black on black crime” are usually not interested in doing anything constructive about black on black crime but in shutting down a conversation about doing something constructive about something else.

    Victor (a225f9)

  37. Time123
    Sorry, didnt see you. Thanks to you too.

    Victor (a225f9)

  38. We need to talk about the problem of “black on black” crime. We need to talk about the problem of fatherlessness. We need to talk about the problem of abortion.

    So there’s a really interesting article in the Washington Post which suggests that black fathers have more daily involvement with young children (aged 0-5) on average than white or Latino fathers. Because their contention was so different than what I had been led to believe, I actually took a fairly cursory look at the study from which it came. The data was collected between 2006-10 and surveyed 10,400 men between the ages of 15-44, and the percentage of them reporting to be either the father or stepfather, or the live-in boyfriend of the mother who serves as a father figure. Anyway, according to the study, black men are more likely to report regularly bathing their child, playing with their child, and eating meals with their child than white or Latino dads, though they do lag behind in reading to their children.

    Now what was not covered (or at least I didn’t see it) is whether black children who don’t have that regular paternal interaction are more likely to be caught up in social pathologies than children of other races who lack parental involvement. And this data is self-reported, so you have to take the participants’ word for it that they are as active in their lives of their children as they report. But it does raise some interesting questions as to how much father participation or lack thereof is to be blamed.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  39. The better-looking Dana said:

    Better late than never, eh?

    For the guys who got shot, the one who was killed, and the woman who was raped, maybe not so much.

    And Mr 123 wrote:

    I think the Mayor is handling this pretty well. I think the strategy of letting them run out of steam (which is inevitable) is a good one, but given 2 killings they need to do something different.

    Conservatives told them what would happen, but, of course, conservatives are evil ol’ raaaaacists, so the woke should never listen to us.

    The Dana in Kentucky (260b9d)

  40. The other Dana,

    Your implication is that the bad things would not have happened if CHOP had not been there. I will note that at least with respec to the attempted rape, it was a CHOP medic who called the police:

    Police are investigating a Thursday sex assault reported at the Capitol Hill protest camp.

    The suspect was taken into custody after a volunteer medic overheard the commotion inside a camp tent as the victim who is deaf tried to scream for help, according to the police report on the incident.

    Police say the 37-year-old suspect lured the 25-year-old woman into his tent around 1 PM with an offer of food. According to the police report, the suspect held the victim down and tried to kiss her. The woman told police she attempted to sign “do not touch” as the suspect covered her mouth and told her “do not scream” as he climbed on top of her and attempted to remove her clothing.

    Police say the suspect tried to drag the woman back into his tent after the medic intervened. She remained with the medic until police arrived.

    The suspect has not yet been charged but was ordered held on suspicion of indecent liberties. He remains in jail on $75,000 bail.

    Victor (a225f9)

  41. Someone wrote:

    We need to talk about the problem of “black on black” crime. We need to talk about the problem of fatherlessness. We need to talk about the problem of abortion.

    We can’t talk about it, ’cause that would be raaaaacist!

    It was 2009, and a cute little white girl by the name of Rian Thal was murdered in foul, fetid, fuming, foggy, filthy Philadelphia. Now it turned out that Miss Thal was not exactly an innocent; she was a drug dealer, but The Philadelphia Inquirer and the rest of the Philly media were wall-to-wall coverage about her killing.

    But when young black guys got offed? They’d get maybe two column inches on the inside of the paper, frequently listed as “unidentified black male.” The Philly media never wanted to touch on the simple facts: that crime was out of control in the heavily black areas of the city. South Philly wasn’t troo bad, and Mt Airy and Chestnut Hill were really nice.

    Strawberry Mansion? It was like Harlem in the bad old days, but nobody could talk about it, because it could be seen as, heaven forfend! blaming black people!

    We cannot have a rational discussion about race in this country.

    The Dana in Kentucky (260b9d)

  42. So talk about it. What have you got to say?

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  43. We cannot have a rational discussion about race in this country.

    Who is this “we” you speak of? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  44. Your implication is that the bad things would not have happened if CHOP had not been there. I will note that at least with respec to the attempted rape, it was a CHOP medic who called the police

    How many yards from the abandoned police station did the pre-rape take place?

    BuDuh (09c6f4)

  45. “So talk about it. What have you got to say?”

    Pretty sure it starts and ends with “black on black crime”.

    Davethulhu (9921df)

  46. Buduh,

    I’m not actually certain where the tent was, but as a general matter the park is fairly large and most of the tents are to the north, away from the station, so probably around a few hundred yards . As regards the implication that an occupied police station would have prevented it, the police in the Before Times didn’t actually patrol that often during the day. You’re more likely to have an inquisitive medic or protestor walk by your tent to hear your attempts to scream.

    On the other hand, it’s also true that if it weren’t for CHOP, there’d be a lot less tents on the park. So you could argue it’d be less likely to happen, or at least only something similar in a homeless encampment under a bridge or in the woods where nobody cares as much.

    Victor (a225f9)

  47. @ Dana inKentucky,

    The better-looking Dana said:

    Better late than never, eh?

    For the guys who got shot, the one who was killed, and the woman who was raped, maybe not so much.

    The comment was made sarcastically precisely because it took three shootings and an attempted rape for the mayor to act. I thought that came across.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  48. How many mid day rapes happened a few hundred yards from the police station prior to them abandoning the station in favor of “CHOP?”

    BuDuh (09c6f4)

  49. How many mid day rapes happened a few hundred yards from the police station prior to them abandoning the station in favor of “CHOP?”

    Time of day unknown, in the same park, 9 in 2019.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  50. Like has been explained before, crime in CHOP now, is running right about average for Capitol Hill. A terribly crime ridden neighborhood is still crime ridden.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  51. The Excuse-makers never cease to amuse…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  52. The Excuse-makers never cease to amuse…

    Who’s excusing what? Providing data is just that. Please, provide a positive case for whatever point you are trying to make.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  53. He can’t.

    Time123 (9f42ee)

  54. Do you have a link for the 9 in 2019?

    BuDuh (09c6f4)

  55. Klink,

    To be fair I think four shootings in three days would be considered unusual for that area. It’s pretty clear CHOP isn’t doing any better than before, though perhaps not horribly worse. I think it’s pretty much a matter of it attracting a lot of jerks, some as homeless in tents in the park, and others at night who like to start fights. It’s not clear it would have been free of jerks without CHOP but some day perhaps weeks or months from now, we can find out exactly who shot and why and it wouldn’t surprise me if CHOP’s existence played a part.

    On the other hand I’d hesitate to call it a terribly crime ridden neighborhood. I’ve certainly never felt any particular fear walking around there in day or early evening, including movie night in the park. But it is a bar/restaurant/club neighborhood which means you get drunks and druggies and assholes late at night, and I’d hesitate to be out and about in the park at midnight.

    But for what it’s worth Seattle’s overall homicide numbers are pretty low. Here’s some statistics for 2019 for crime from a Seattle Times Article:

    The truth is that while all that caterwauling was happening around the Internet, here on the streets crime actually went down, across the board, in 2019. Robbery was down 9 percent from a year ago, burglary was off 6 percent. Property crime in total was down 6 percent – with the raw number of property crimes (mostly thefts) the lowest recorded since 2013.

    Maybe people are so fed up they aren’t reporting all the property crimes? Violent crime was also down, by 4 percent compared to last year. There were five fewer murders, 81 fewer aggravated assaults and 181 fewer robberies than in 2018.

    What especially stands out though are the low crime rates. Seattle’s violent crime rate of 6.1 incidents per 100,000 people was the second lowest in a decade, according to city data. But the property crime rate of 4,949 incidents per 100,000 people is by far the lowest recorded in the city since at least the 1970s. The rate in 2019 was 20 percent lower than it was just five years ago, and more than 40 percent lower than it was twenty years ago.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/third-world-hellhole-new-data-shows-seattle-had-lowest-property-crime-rate-in-decades/

    Victor (a225f9)

  56. Victor wrote:

    Your implication is that the bad things would not have happened if CHOP had not been there. I will note that at least with respec to the attempted rape, it was a CHOP medic who called the police:

    The reports have been that the paramedics didn’t get to the man who was shot to death. Had things been normal, perhaps police and rescue would have gotten to him earlier, and perhaps they might have been able to save him.

    The Dana in Kentucky (260b9d)

  57. The other Dana,

    The reports I saw, and the Omar Salisbury tape, indicates that the victim was seen by the volunteer medics and taken to the local hospital before the police and official medics arrived on site. There’s reports the police/medics were delayed by the felt need to stage themselves outside the zone, and get police protection, before arriving (while some protestors were actively begging them to come in). So after that delay, when they arrived it was too late and they ran into protestors telling them to leave.

    Now you could speculate as to the alternative – a 2:30 shooting, called in, medics arrive as normal, and get guy to hospital sooner. You might be right. But I think if there was a failure that night is at least partly the fault of police and protestors not wanting to be in good communication with each other beforehand so police didn’t feel they need to spend time suiting up, getting out their shields and guns and bullhorns, and arriving in a group before there can be medical attention.

    With the police, it is apparently a choice of all or nothing.

    Victor (a225f9)

  58. this here mr. president donald trump has really made America great, hasn’t he

    and in just a three and a half years, too

    who else could do that?

    nk (1d9030)

  59. no one is worse than mitch mcconnell – the can’t wait to be minority leader of the senate, and the majority of republican senators would vote for the hack.
    pafrickenthetic.

    mg (8cbc69)

  60. 59… the country’s certainly in better shape than what the narcissistic cretin from Murderland, USA left it in.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  61. “narcissistic cretin”

    Now that’s irony.

    Davethulhu (9921df)

  62. That’s not what Stormy said.

    nk (1d9030)

  63. OT, but nk-bait nonetheless and we still far from the weekend:
    https://youtu.be/BwnPCgfLrPM

    urbanleftbehind (58b7af)

  64. The turtle has been mostly blanc mange, grassleys been a little better.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  65. urbanleftbehind, the minute I saw it, I said to myself, “That’s got to be in California someplace”. Then I Googled it. Yes, yes it is! And in LA to boot.

    nk (1d9030)

  66. well of course it is

    Dave (1bb933)

  67. I had to google Ja Rule…

    Kishnevi (638ecc)

  68. Since urbanleftbehind turned this into a open thread, is remorselessness the inability or refusal to acquire a second walrus? Hint: Trump’s first wife and maybe also his third would get it.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. Interesting read, but nothing to do with Trump’s wives.
    https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/06/65309/

    Kishnevi (638ecc)

  70. Cheering lawlessness by a pimp and worse, enabled by the very city council who rewarded him with a nice stipend last year.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  71. It is interesting read, Kishnevi, but I was just making a bilingual pun, not referring to the police shooting defense playbook. Your grandparents would probably get it, too.

    nk (1d9030)

  72. This is all it took, should have brought up whose team youve been siding with brett kimberlins

    Narciso (7404b5)

  73. “ And your insistence that a conversation on racism must start with black on black crime is kind of telling.”

    What’s ‘telling‘ is that you felt the need to add the word ‘start’. I merely asked if it was being discussed.

    Many at BLM and other race hucksters refuse to discuss this very important subject at all. Some even insist that to mention the 2nd most cause of death to young blacks (1st is abortion) is to further white supremacy.

    Even more telling is trying to justify lower crime stats in an area many people have fled or are cowering in their homes afraid to go out at night.

    harkin (9c4571)

  74. For those still interested in the matter, here’s a good account of what is happening at the CHOP right now:

    https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/06/capitol-hill-protest-zone-shifts-out-of-cal-anderson-park-with-remaining-core-of-campers-surrounding-east-precinct/#more-2067258054

    Briefly, the encampment is breaking down and people are starting to gather around the precinct as the location for a last stand.

    Harkin,

    My apologies for getting you wrong. Why don’t you spend some time discussing black on black crime and explain what you think are its reasons and how it fits into America’s longer history of institutionalized racism.

    Victor (a225f9)

  75. Victor (a225f9) — 6/24/2020 @ 9:33 am

    The war on poverty incentivized single motherhood. This wasn’t targeted at minorities but has had a huge impact on black families. It’s also had a negative impact on poor whites and other groups. Black culture now encourages the thug life, sees education as trying to be white, etc. King had some of these concerns in “Where do we go from here”. BLM is doing exactly what King cautioned against.

    Outside of that no one seems to have an explanation for the crime statistics. It’s correct that black on black crime is all some people can say but that’s because there is no deeper analysis. I can’t discuss how it fits into institutional racism because a) that isn’t a thing and b) areas or institutions run by black people for black people aren’t examples of white racism against black people.

    frosty (4c16b4)

  76. Well said Frosty.

    You really have to wonder how the destructive pathologies in the community, which have been studied and proven ad nauseum, continue to be ignored.

    We just witnessed a weekend in which ONE CITY had 104 shot, 14 of them killed (including kids), almost all of them black, and the media ignored it all because a rogue cop was not involved.

    Instead, the American media was in a lather because of a NASCAR garage pull rope.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  77. The nephew of the mayor of Atlanta was killed several years ago, presumably because he was mistaken for a gang meber — by people who were not the police.

    https://www.ajc.com/news/local/gang-members-convicted-murdering-atlanta-mayor-elect-nephew/dVz3XBqvdJYsHHNN5AUx7K

    The first trial ended in a mistral because ajuror tried to collect testimony independently

    https://www.ajc.com/news/crime–law/jury-misconduct-leads-mistrial-death-councilwoman-nephew/qGwbkdIUsIZAOV5Xk3y7aL/

    Sammy Finkelman (3102d6)

  78. frosty (4c16b4) — 6/24/2020 @ 10:04 am

    Outside of that no one seems to have an explanation for the crime statistics.

    Oh, it’s simple. Ultimately it’s underpolicing and under prosecution of serous law violations. It’s not single motherhood because A) Why should that cause it? B) while within the same cohort there’s usually a correlation, it varies by neighborhood and decade. Single otherhood only went up after 1975, but crime went down after 1990 till about 2016. (it plateaued then ad now it’s unmistakably and undeniably heading up again.)

    The main significant factor is who a persons friends are, and what those friends can tell their friends. News that you can get away with certain crimes, or not get away with, gets around.

    It’s correct that black on black crime is all some people can say but that’s because there is no deeper analysis.

    It’s tough getting people to admit that there is a high amount of black and black crime. It doesn’t fit into the narrative. You have to be grateful they went that far.

    I can’t discuss how it fits into institutional racism because a) that isn’t a thing and b) areas or institutions run by black people for black people aren’t examples of white racism against black people.

    You could still call it institutionalized racism – certain areas lack political significance – the people there are of almost no value to the powers that be. That’s not strictly racism, of course.

    That also wind up getting represented by the wrong people in legislatures.

    Sammy Finkelman (3102d6)


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