Patterico's Pontifications

6/16/2020

Trump Signs Order To Ban Use Of Chokeholds Unless Officer’s Life Is At Risk

Filed under: General — Dana @ 10:47 am



[guest post by Dana]

President Trump today signed an executive order that includes an increase in police funding, as well as police reforms:

President Donald Trump on Tuesday signed an executive order aimed at tracking misconduct by law enforcers and creating incentives for departments to improve their practices.

The president, during a speech in the White House Rose Garden that heaped praise on the police and took time to attack his political opponents, said before signing the order that it will ban the use of police chokeholds “except if the officer’s life is at risk.”

Trump lauded law enforcement officers at the event, saying that “the least we can do, because they deserve it so much, they have to get our gratitude and we have to give them great respect for what they do.”

“In many cases local law enforcement is underfunded, understaffed and under [supported],” he added.

Trump rejected calls to “defund the police,” and instead, wants to reward police departments for creating better training and higher standards of practice:

The Trump administration’s order rejects calls to “defund the police” that have gained traction from within the nationwide protest movement. Rather, it aims to reward police departments with federal grant money for updating their standards on training and credentialing and will create a database to track individual cops on metrics such as excessive use-of-force complaints, which would be shared between departments.

The order would also give departments incentives to involve trained professionals, such as social workers, to respond to calls for certain nonviolent issues — including mental health, drug addiction and homelessness — rather than police alone.

“I strongly oppose the radical and dangerous efforts to defund, dismantle and dissolve our police departments,” Trump said in the Rose Garden. “Americans know the truth: Without police there is chaos, without law there is anarchy, and without safety there is catastrophe.”

Both the Republicans and Democrats are readying bills on police reforms. However, there is a distinct difference between what the parties believe to be the best way to effect change. It should be noted too that neither party has prepared a bill that would satisfy protesters, as neither goes far enough to “defund the police” (completely revamping police departments):

Central to the Republican package would be the creation of the national database to improve transparency so officers cannot transfer from one department to another without public oversight of their records. The Democrats have a similar provision.

Yet the Republican bill does not go as far as the Democrats do on the issue of eliminating qualified immunity, which would allow those injured by law enforcement personnel to sue for damages. The White House has said that is a step too far. As an alternative, Scott has suggested a “decertification” process for officers involved in misconduct.

One large police union, the influential Fraternal Order of Police, said in a statement it is working with Congress and the White House on the proposals, having provided “feedback” on the Democratic bill and “substantial input” on the emerging GOP package.

97 Responses to “Trump Signs Order To Ban Use Of Chokeholds Unless Officer’s Life Is At Risk”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  2. This sounds good:

    creation of the national database to improve transparency

    This is hard to make sense of:

    it will ban the use of police chokeholds “except if the officer’s life is at risk.”

    If you are applying the chokehold how can your life be at risk? I know this sounds flippant but under what conditions would a chokehold still be allowed? Why not just ban them? This sounds like triangulation.

    frosty (f27e97)

  3. What is Trump’s authority to do this? Maybe over federal police officers (the FBI), but over state and local police? Don’t see it.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  4. This is from the the executive order itself, and can be found on White House website:

    (ii) the State or local law enforcement agency’s use-of-force policies prohibit the use of chokeholds — a physical maneuver that restricts an individual’s ability to breathe for the purposes of incapacitation — except in those situations where the use of deadly force is allowed by law.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  5. What is Trump’s authority to do this? Maybe over federal police officers (the FBI), but over state and local police? Don’t see it.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 6/16/2020 @ 10:57 am

    Same way as the speed limit used to be imposed to the states… it’s all tied to federal fundings.

    whembly (c30c83)

  6. Bored Lawyer (56c962) — 6/16/2020 @ 10:57 am

    What is Trump’s authority to do this?

    I’m too lazy to go read the EO but my guess would be that this is all tied to funds. They will be withheld from, or more given to, departments that ban chokeholds. Same with the database.

    frosty (f27e97)

  7. A combover over a spray tan to hide leprosy.

    nk (1d9030)

  8. This at least sounds more effective than toppling statues.

    beer ‘n pretzels (8caeae)

  9. The database seems like a good idea.

    Nic (896fdf)

  10. Santa Cruz deputy’s alleged killer charged with assassinating federal cop in Oakland ambush; authorities link attacks to extremist group that believes civil war looming
    Steven Carrillo, the U.S. Air Force sergeant who allegedly murdered a Santa Cruz deputy earlier this month, has now been charged with a second deadly ambush of federal officers a week earlier — alongside a second man who allegedly drove the drive-by shooting van — in attacks that authorities say were driven by Carrillo’s extremist, anti-law enforcement views and ties to a group that believes the second American Civil War is coming soon.
    …..
    Jack Bennett, special agent in charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, said that the duo purposefully chose the protest as the site of the killing to better blend in — and to take advantage of community grief over the police killing of Minneapolis man George Floyd.
    …..
    Authorities also linked the crimes officially to the so-called “Boogaloo” movement, a self-described libertarian anti-government citizen militia that is preparing for a supposed looming civil war. Inside the van allegedly used in both crimes, police recovered a patch with a Boogaloo symbol. The messages “Boog” and “I became unreasonable” were meanwhile scrawled in blood on the hood of the vehicle, authorities said, apparent references to the movement.
    …..
    In the criminal complaint, federal authorities pointed to Facebook posts allegedly made by Carrillo, in which he voiced support for violence against law enforcement and made references to the Boogalloo movement.

    “Go to the riots and support our own cause. Show them the real targets,” Carrillo allegedly wrote on one post. “Use their anger to fuel our fire. Think outside the box. We have mobs of angry people to use to our advantage.”

    In an exchange between Carrillo and Justus — posted to an unspecified Facebook group — Carrillo allegedly commented, “It’s on our coast now, this needs to be nationwide. It’s a great opportunity to target the specialty group soup bois.” The term “soup bois” is commonly used by Boogaloo followers to refer to federal agents.
    ……

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  11. First, Trump seems great on this issue. If only he had stayed inside and not used the tear gas or bothered with bible photo ops, he could actually win on this issue.

    If you are applying the chokehold how can your life be at risk? I know this sounds flippant but under what conditions would a chokehold still be allowed? Why not just ban them? This sounds like triangulation.

    frosty (f27e97) — 6/16/2020 @ 10:54 am

    I’m sure if you were creative enough you could imagine some really unlikely event where choking someone out keeps them from reaching a weapon. The reality is that the FOP and unions always want some kind of qualifier in use of force policies making clear that nothing in that policy should be interpreted to keep an officer from using something to defend their life. If you google your local agency’s use of force policy, there could easily be similar language at the end of it. In my opinion, this is fine. George Floyd was in handcuffs.

    A combover over a spray tan to hide leprosy.

    nk (1d9030) — 6/16/2020 @ 11:04 am

    This does nothing about the three cowards who didn’t stop the choking. Would they have spoken up about a lie that sent someone to prison? The hierarchical culture in police training, and attracting better people, would help. I don’t know what to do about this and I wish I did.

    The database is a great idea. I would go so far as to want peace officer licenses to be federally regulated and record training docs, evals, complaints, regular competency test scores, PT scores, marksmanship, etc. A lot of bad apples resign before they are fired and apply at another agency.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  12. The problem with the conditioning federal funds argument is that, as we have seen in the sanctuary city cases, that is something Congress has to impose, not the president. If Congress has appropriated money, the president cannot add more conditions. (The speed limit issue I believe was a Congressional enactment.)

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  13. I agree with Dustin that the database is a good idea.

    DRJ (15874d)

  14. Good idea and decision by Trump.

    DRJ (15874d)

  15. Bored Lawyer,

    Do you think this could be established as a “best practice”? Many law enforcement agencies seek accreditation. It’s an astonishingly time intensive task to prove compliance with CALEA. When I’ve asked why we don’t just keep the best practices and not bother with the accreditation I’ve been told it’s because of insurance costs and arguing we were using best practices if something went wrong and we were sued.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  16. “We have mobs of angry people to use to our advantage.”
    __ _

    So basically the Democratic platform.
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  17. So basically the Democratic platform.

    Yes, as articulated by a Trumpbot, about a Trumpbot.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  18. The EO basically does nothing. Real changes would require Congress to act.

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  19. Steven Carrillo, the U.S. Air Force sergeant who allegedly murdered a Santa Cruz deputy earlier this month, has now been charged with a second deadly ambush of federal officers a week earlier — alongside a second man who allegedly drove the drive-by shooting van — in attacks that authorities say were driven by Carrillo’s extremist, anti-law enforcement views and ties to a group that believes the second American Civil War is coming soon.

    The antifa reign of terror continues.

    Dave (1bb933)

  20. Armed civilians, suspected gunman arrested after man is shot at Albuquerque protest
    Protesters in Albuquerque wrapped a chain around the neck of a bronze statue and began tugging and chanting, “Tear it down,” shortly before sunset Monday. Their efforts to pull down a monument to Spanish conquistador Juan de Oñate suddenly stopped as four shots rang out.

    …..Just yards away, a group of men sporting quasi-military garb and carrying semiautomatic rifles formed a protective circle around the gunman.

    …..The gunshots, which left one man in critical but stable condition, have set off a cascade of public outcry denouncing the shooting and the unregulated militia presence. On Tuesday morning, the Albuquerque Police Department announced that detectives had arrested Stephen Ray Baca, 31, in the shooting.

    Baca, who appeared to be protecting the statue and opened fire after people pursued and hit him, was charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon and firearm enhancement, according to a criminal complaint.

    The victim, Scott Williams, suffered multiple gunshot wounds to the torso and immediately received aid from bystanders, according to the criminal complaint. ….
    …..
    In the hours leading up to the violence Monday, protesters faced off with members of an armed group of civilians that calls itself the New Mexico Civil Guard and counterprotesters toting “All lives matter” signs.
    ……
    In the video obtained by KOB4, a masked protester swung what police identified as a longboard and struck Baca in the shoulder. The man backpedaled out of the crowd but continued to exchange shouts with protesters.
    …..
    According to the complaint, Williams — the gunshot victim, dressed in black — can be seen on bystander video retrieving the board and swinging it toward Baca’s upper body and head. Then, the complaint says, Baca fired several shots. The crowd scattered.
    …..
    Police responded to the scene with tear gas and stun grenades to force the crowd back. Officers detained several members of the armed group, according to reporters and witnesses at the scene. Video showed officers placing the apparent gunman into a cruiser.

    Police wrote in the criminal complaint against Baca, which give his name as “Steven,” that the man was recorded holding a black semiautomatic handgun like the one eventually recovered from the scene along with four spent shell casings. Baca could be seen firing and then placing the weapon on the ground, sitting away from it and using his personal cellphone, the complaint states. …..
    ….
    The New Mexico Civil Guard, which identified itself to a New York Times reporter covering the protest Monday, has a controversial history. The right-wing group has repeatedly shown up at Black Lives Matter protests in recent weeks with guns and in quasi-military garb.

    On Facebook, the group has shared materials encouraging people to arm themselves, promoted military training on infantry tactics and “ambushing,” and shared multiple posts opposing the leveling of monuments to Confederate figures in the South and Oñate in New Mexico. ……
    …..

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  21. The antifa reign of terror continues.

    This cop’s death was significant when in happened a couple of weeks ago, not only now when it’s political value became apparent.

    beer ‘n pretzels (6d7ab9)

  22. “This cop’s death was significant when in happened a couple of weeks ago, not only now when it’s political value became apparent.”

    People were blaming it on antifa or BLM when it happened.

    Davethulhu (3e20c2)

  23. He also said this today…

    “They’ve come up with things. They’ve come up with many other cures and therapeutics over the years. These are the people, the best, the smartest, the most brilliant anywhere. They’ve come up with the AIDS vaccine.”

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  24. The guys killing the police weren’t antifa, but a right wing group attempting to start a civil war, aka Boogaloo.

    The gunman charged in the officer killings is the leader of a highly trained US Air Force security team that guards aircraft in high terrorist and high crime areas overseas.

    https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/06/radio-rwanda-2

    Victor (a225f9)

  25. I agree with Dustin that the database is a good idea.
    For some police departments placement in the database would a positive, not a negative. Given there is no legal reporting requirement for PDs to forward names to the database, most departments probably won’t. A dirty cop would negotiate his departure with a proviso that his name be withheld.

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  26. “Hmm. Looks like an upstanding citizen. Maybe not.”

    Will antifa’s reign of terror never cease?

    Davethulhu (3e20c2)

  27. This is all hat, no cowboy, as they say in Texas. A cop only has to testify to a [sympathetic] jury that they believed their life to be in danger, whether they really did or not. That’s the problem with the system as it stands now and Trump did absolutely ZILCH to remedy it.

    Gryph (08c844)

  28. NC lawmaker blasts Black Lives Matter, calls protesters ‘thugs’ and ‘vermin’
    …….
    Republican Rep. Larry Pittman of Cabarrus County called protesters “ignorant thugs,” “criminals,” “domestic terrorists” and “vermin.” If they resist and attack police, he said they should “shoot them.”

    “This is war,” he wrote on Facebook Monday. “Our people have a right to expect our leaders to be on our side, not surrender to the lawless, godless mob.”
    ……
    “These vermin don’t care about George Floyd or any other individual, except maybe their financial sponsor, George Soros,” Pittman wrote. “They are bent on destroying our country and our way of life, and they will use any tragedy, any slogan, any excuse to convince clueless people that their radical injustice is justice.”

    Pittman, a pastor, declined to comment Tuesday.

    “Sorry, I don’t do interviews,” he said in an email.

    On Facebook, he said if he were in charge he would order police to take back their cities, arrest “these domestic terrorists,” and “If they resist and attack you, shoot them.”
    ……
    In 2017, he compared Abraham Lincoln to Hitler.

    “Lincoln was the same sort if [sic] tyrant, and personally responsible for the deaths of over 800,000 Americans in a war that was unnecessary and unconstitutional,” he wrote.

    He later tried to walk that back, saying, “While both Lincoln and Hitler were obviously bad guys, what Hitler did was worse and I apologize if people thought I was putting them in the same league.”
    ……

    RipMurdock (d2a2a8)

  29. I expect Trump’s order, and the House and Senate bills, to add bureaucratic work but not make things better. The President and Congress are acting because this is a big issue today. But, they don’t have any expertise. Also, rules and regs ought to be different depending on local circumstances. Frankly, I don’t think people in Washington particularly care how effective local policing is.

    Next month they’ll forget about policing and claim to “solve” some problem that happens to be a matter of current public attention.

    David in Cal (f8ea8c)

  30. This shifts the burden onto the officer to justify his actions if he uses a chokehold. Burden shifting may not seem like a big deal but it can be.

    DRJ (15874d)

  31. 30. It really doesn’t; I’m sure officers lie about being in fear for their lives on a regular basis. And even if they don’t lie about it, juries aren’t normally given to question whether that fear is reasonable or not.

    Gryph (08c844)

  32. I wonder if some of these violent incidents stem in part from people and police getting stressed from Covid and isolation. We get angry easier, maybe?

    DRJ (15874d)

  33. Will antifa’s reign of terror never cease?

    How encouraging that Antifa, BLM and the Boogaloos have common ground on dealing with cops. Maybe they can make it a foundation for peace, forge an alliance, sing kumbaya….

    beer ‘n pretzels (ac915d)

  34. It may not shift the burden as a matter of law. It is not an affirmative defense that must be plead. But I think prosecutors who file charges against police who use chokeholds will argue that using a chokehold is discouraged and no longer authorized, so it is up to the officer to justify it. In many cases that means the officer will have to testify, which can be a problem for a defense.

    DRJ (15874d)

  35. 34. It can be a problem with all other things being equal. All other things aren’t equal when it’s a cop testifying. They get the benefit of the doubt in situations that another accused criminal would not.

    Gryph (08c844)

  36. In some places and in some circumstances, but those places and circumstances are shrinking.

    DRJ (15874d)

  37. Especially now that there is so much video of things. Juries don’t have to decide who to trust. They can see what happened and decide.

    DRJ (15874d)

  38. 36. 37. One would think. Unfortunately, there have been cops that I believe have gotten away with excessive force, with and without firearms/tazer usage. And recently, I might add. The days of giving the cops the benefit of the doubt are almost certainly over, but if the pendulum swings too far in the other direction, we’ve almost certainly started down a path to anarchy. And I already fear what that will look like when played out to its conclusion.

    Gryph (08c844)

  39. No more trouble on the ‘South Side’… “that’s my policy,” eh, Captain, sir?!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFEK0Sbq4o8

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  40. There are grays in the world, Gryph. Everything isn’t black and white.

    DRJ (15874d)

  41. Love it when Trump goes full Nixon; it’s so perfectly clear– and so sinisterly nostalgic.

    “People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. Well, I’m not a crook.”- President Richard M. Nixon, 11/17/1973

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  42. However, there is a distinct difference between what the parties believe to be the best way to effect change. It should be noted too that neither party has prepared a bill that would satisfy protesters, as neither goes far enough to “defund the police” (completely revamping police departments):

    By “Protesters” you (or whoever wrote this) means radical Leftists and Antifa. Its been on their agenda for quite some time, and they are using the ‘Peaceful Protests’ aka 17 dead, $millions of property destroyed/looted, and hundreds seriously injured as an EXCUSE to push through their agenda.

    This sis all about the black vote in November. The D’s are trying to work up black folks so they’ll turn out and vote against those “racist Republicans” while R’s are trying to calm them down, so they will just vote in the usual numbers. None of this is a sincere effort to reform the police – assuming the police even NEED federal reform. BTW, I look forward to the Never-Trumper criticism of Trump’s choke hold ban. Quite Authoritarian wasn’t it? LOL. Look for more Goldberg/French attacks on “Dictator Trump” – NOT.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  43. BTW, I look forward to the Never-Trumper criticism of Trump’s choke hold ban. Quite Authoritarian wasn’t it? LOL.

    Meaningless. Not worth the paper it’s printed on. Pointless, ineffectual, unenforceable, just same old Trump.

    nk (1d9030)

  44. What’s his next EO going to be? That the police are forbidden to sing “On The Good Ship Lollypop” while wearing pink crinoline when detaining someone? That’s about what his chokehold EO is worth.

    nk (1d9030)

  45. The twitter thread of police misconduct is up to 528 entries. Here’s the latest one:

    Louisville, KY: a guy records a half-dozen cops dogpiling a protestor – and then one of the cops shoots the window to stop him from recording

    https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1273057627111600132

    Guy is filming the protest from a second floor window and is shot at by police (with a pepper ball I think).

    Davethulhu (3e20c2)

  46. Davethulhu, that is truly amazing.

    Your proposal for preventing police misconduct is what exactly? Genuinely curious. I don’t think you’ve made a single suggestion, but would love to be proved wrong.

    beer ‘n pretzels (6d7ab9)

  47. “Davethulhu, that is truly amazing.”

    Aren’t you gonna tell me that the cameraman should have followed instruction from the police?

    “Your proposal for preventing police misconduct is what exactly? Genuinely curious. I don’t think you’ve made a single suggestion, but would love to be proved wrong.”

    Get rid of the “bad apples” and the people covering up for them.

    For example, in the linked video, you and I both know that unless there’s direct video evidence of a cop aiming and shooting at the guy in the window, he’ll face no repercussions. His co-workers will certainly never turn him in.

    Drastically reduce or eliminate qualified immunity.

    Davethulhu (3e20c2)

  48. Establish a roving task force in the Justice Department to investigate and prosecute police misconduct, including successive prosecutions, in places where the Blue Wall and local prosecutors and judges work hand-in-glove to ignore it, cover it up, or throw the case if it ever gets to court.

    nk (1d9030)

  49. Davethulhu, I support removing the “bad apples” and people covering for them. I also support removing bad prosecutors, bad judges, bad teachers, etc. Welcome then to the effort to reign in ridiculous public employee protections and public employee unions. Because, we’re not going to make headway otherwise. Are you in?

    Let’s also acknowledge that even if those bad apples were removed, the groups that are anti-police will still be anti-police. BLM, Antifa, Boogaloos. That will not change one iota. They are not anti-bad apple. They are anti-police.

    And, videos like these will be used to further that effort, regardless if every single bad cop behavior captured in a video results in that cop’s dismissal and prosecution.

    Thanks for your answer. I was genuinely interested.

    beer ‘n pretzels (ad0987)

  50. I think we should applaud Trump’s forthright stand for the Rule of Law.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  51. A Mad Scramble to Stock Millions of Malaria Pills, Likely for Nothing
    The Food and Drug Administration’s abrupt decision this week to revoke an emergency waiver for two malaria drugs promoted by President Trump as potential “game changers” against the coronavirus has left 66 million doses stranded in the federal stockpile — and officials do not yet know what they will do with them.

    The F.D.A.’s withdrawal on Monday of its “emergency use authorization” for chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine did not go over well at the White House, where top aides to Mr. Trump had rushed in March to fill the federal stockpile. …..

    “This is a Deep State blindside by bureaucrats who hate the administration they work for more than they’re concerned about saving American lives,” Peter Navarro, Mr. Trump’s trade adviser, who helped distribute 19 million hydroxychloroquine pills, fumed in an interview Monday night.
    …….
    …….. Mr. Navarro’s anger seemed to capture the futility of the administration’s headlong efforts to yield to the president’s wishes and rush the two drugs into use, yet another example of how politics and science have collided in Mr. Trump’s Washington.
    ……..
    “They had a flimsy basis for the E.U.A. in the first place,” Dr. Peter Lurie, the president of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, said, using the abbreviation for emergency use authorization. “It’s quite clear they were strong-armed into it by Navarro himself and others — not excluding radio, television talk show hosts, the president’s pals and some doctor in New York. And now they’ve got mud on their faces because they’ve belatedly come to their senses and done the right thing.”
    …….
    As of Monday, the government has distributed 31 million tablets of hydroxychloroquine to state and local health departments, hospitals and research institutions; 63 million tablets remain, according to Carol Danko, a spokeswoman for the Department of Health and Human Services. Officials are working with the companies that donated the drugs to “determine the available options” for the products.
    ……..
    Mr. Navarro insisted that the F.D.A. would have “blood on its hands” if any of those studies showed hydroxychloroquine was effective. …….
    ……..
    I’m sure Sammy Finkelman will take some of the pills off their hands.

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  52. Love it when Trump goes full Nixon; it’s so perfectly clear– and so sinisterly nostalgic.

    Well here’s the requisite Hard Hat Riot

    urbanleftbehind (e74149)

  53. Davethulhu, I support removing the “bad apples” and people covering for them. I also support removing bad prosecutors, bad judges, bad teachers, etc. Welcome then to the effort to reign in ridiculous public employee protections and public employee unions. Because, we’re not going to make headway otherwise. Are you in?”

    Let’s focus on cops first, then we can move on to the others.

    “Let’s also acknowledge that even if those bad apples were removed, the groups that are anti-police will still be anti-police. BLM, Antifa, Boogaloos. That will not change one iota. They are not anti-bad apple. They are anti-police.”

    That’s your interpretation, and I don’t agree with it.

    “And, videos like these will be used to further that effort, regardless if every single bad cop behavior captured in a video results in that cop’s dismissal and prosecution.”

    I’m willing to take that risk.

    Davethulhu (3e20c2)

  54. As for qualified immunity, Davethulhu, I think the law of unintended consequences will apply. The pool of applicants willing to do police work without QI will be smaller than otherwise. Good people are going to choose a different vocation, unless a significant increase in pay compensates for the increased risk.

    Eliminating QI doesn’t just impact bad cops. It influences what risks a good cop would take.

    beer ‘n pretzels (c1a7b5)

  55. After surgisphere enbarassed the lancet (i think thats unpossible) and another study suffered severe structural issues, you would think they would pause, naw it’ll be fine.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  56. BTW, pointing shiny objects at the police through a window during a riot is bad manners. It’s also something that police counter-snipers, at their own windows and rooftops, search through their telescopic sights for.

    nk (1d9030)

  57. Let’s focus on cops first, then we can move on to the others.

    “Let’s also acknowledge that even if those bad apples were removed, the groups that are anti-police will still be anti-police. BLM, Antifa, Boogaloos. That will not change one iota. They are not anti-bad apple. They are anti-police.”

    That’s your interpretation, and I don’t agree with it.

    “And, videos like these will be used to further that effort, regardless if every single bad cop behavior captured in a video results in that cop’s dismissal and prosecution.”

    I’m willing to take that risk.

    Davethulhu (3e20c2) — 6/16/2020 @ 7:39 pm

    Let’s start with the teachers first. They’re the ones that have turned so many of our young’s brains to mush by believing they can make socialism work and that society is racist and inherently unfair.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  58. “Let’s start with the teachers first. They’re the ones that have turned so many of our young’s brains to mush by believing they can make socialism work and that society is racist and inherently unfair.”

    Let’s do the cops first, because they’re literally killing people.

    Davethulhu (3e20c2)

  59. As for qualified immunity, Davethulhu, I think the law of unintended consequences will apply. The pool of applicants willing to do police work without QI will be smaller than otherwise. Good people are going to choose a different vocation, unless a significant increase in pay compensates for the increased risk.

    The cops do not pay the judgments personally. The municipalities do. Chicago has paid around $750 million, that’s three-quarters of a billion dollars, in the last 15 years. Abolishing qualified immunity will encourage the municipalities to select, train, and discipline their blue centurions more carefully.

    nk (1d9030)

  60. Or raise taxes on their citizenry. Whichever’s easier.

    nk (1d9030)

  61. Let’s do the cops first, because they’re literally killing people.

    Davethulhu (3e20c2) — 6/16/2020 @ 7:56 pm

    Teachers are doing that and in much greater numbers by ruining minds and destroying civilization. Bad cops are a drop in the bucket compared to bad teachers.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  62. Cops are the last line of defense, the parents are awol the churches are barred from having any real influence, the media fills them with trash 24/7 on their shells, its not surprising a third rate rapper would become the apex predator in an eloi redoubt

    Narciso (7404b5)

  63. “Teachers are doing that and in much greater numbers by ruining minds and destroying civilization.”

    You and like-minded people should organize some protests, get the word out.

    Davethulhu (3e20c2)

  64. Just keep your cotton-picking hands off Mrs. Blatt.

    nk (1d9030)

  65. When bill ayers and angela davis, have a hand in the curriculum and they have since the 80s, we were asking for trouble.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  66. NJRob and Narciso, local curriculum is controlled by the local school board. Every class offered and the curriculum for that class has to be approved by the local school board. Billy Ayers and Angela Davis have no power to approve or disapprove any local school curriculum.

    Nic (896fdf)

  67. You dont know anything about constructivist curriculum nclb templates like ignite

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11864739/lincoln-guardian-shut-down/

    Narciso (7404b5)

  68. Yeah, Nic, all you know is that teachers who don’t teach the curriculum get fired.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. @68 Because curriculum isn’t part of my job or anything. For the love of Pete.

    First, history isn’t part of the required standardized testing cycle, so school districts have basically total control of the history curriculum and are not beholden to NCLB or the feds (and the subject areas that are have a skills requirement, not a content requirement, NCLB doesn’t tell the English department what novels the kids have to read).

    Curriculum, how does it work (simplified):

    Your text books have gotten too old. They are falling apart and 150 kids didn’t bother to turn their books in last year, so it’s time to get new text books soon because now you don’t have enough books and the ones you have are trashed and the publisher put out a new edition so you can’t just replace the missing and trashed books.

    You district subject area group and a DO rep or 2 and possibly a member of your PTA (depending on the district) get together and looks at the available curriculums. They pick some to order samples of (samples are usually free because they want to sell you a boatload of text books for a bazzilion dollars). The samples arrive and get distributed to various schools for the department to look at. Everyone gets together again to discuss the various curriculums.

    They choose one or two per school to pilot (try out). These go to be presented to the board. The board members can take copies of the texts and curriculum descriptions home to check them out. At the next board meeting they approve or do not approve the possible pilot programs. Sometimes they bring back questions about why this curriculum or that one isn’t being piloted. Sometimes they bring back a request that a specific curriculum be piloted (in that case the subject area takes a look at it and either says sure or explains why they would rather not but that still goes to the board for a decision, the board can say “yes, you will”). All possible pilot curriculums are voted on.

    The curriculums are piloted for one to two years and made available for district parents to look at. The district subject area meets during this time to discuss what is working or not working etc. At the end of the 1-2 years, the curriculums go back to the board to be re-presented, the subject area lets them know which one they want and the 1 or 2 they also think are OK and why, and board, again, can take them home to look them over because it’s been 1-2 yrs and also the board may have changed. The next board meeting (or so) the board comes back to vote. They may have more questions, they may vote directly. They may choose the recommended curriculum or one of the others, or they may require the district go back to the drawing board. They could, theoretically, vote for an entirely different curriculum that the district never even looked at.

    Now you have your curriculum. Best education practices says that a student should be able to move schools in your district and walk almost directly into the same unit being taught as was being taught in the class they just left (we try to keep teachers within a week of eachother, perfection not being possible). This means that each subject area has something called a pacing guide. The pacing guide is your list of “essential standards” (also approved by the Board) placed week by week so that your teachers know what they should be teaching when. Some districts have a test (board approved) they give once a quarter district wide in a certain week for certain subject areas to make sure their teachers are in fact following the curriculum at the required pace.

    In short: Every step of district curriculum is approved by the School Board and teachers are monitored to ensure compliance with the approved curriculum.

    Your school district is one of the most locally governed areas of American life that exists.

    Nic (896fdf)

  70. You dont know anything about constructivist curriculum nclb templates like ignite

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11864739/lincoln-guardian-shut-down/

    How, exactly, does your first claim, get bolstered by a British paper, commenting on the controversy of a different British paper? They are completely unrelated.

    I mean, it’s not like honesty is your brand, but also you could link to this.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (9878f6)

  71. Let’s start with the teachers first.

    ROFLMAO. Yeah, you tell’em, bub– start with Liberty University. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  72. 70. Nic (896fdf) — 6/16/2020 @ 9:52 pm

    Your school district is one of the most locally governed areas of American life that exists.

    In the suburbs, maybe.

    When tried in cities, it doesn’t work, because of the anonymity factor maybe, and the school boards get captured by special interest groups, usually teachers’ unions.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  73. @73 They aren’t any more captured by special interests than the city council. Probably less than the city council. The “campaign” for school board is tiny. It isn’t hard to get by the special interests, if they happen to be interested in your school board. Even a person in NY city could probably stand in/near a couple of the local subway stations and hand out fliers and have a significant effect on the school board elections even if most of the people don’t pay them any attention.

    Nic (896fdf)

  74. Nic (896fdf) — 6/17/2020 @ 2:33 am

    Even a person in NY city could probably stand in/near a couple of the local subway stations and hand out fliers and have a significant effect on the school board elections even if most of the people don’t pay them any attention.

    But who is going to bother? Besides people with connections to the jobs? Either people who want to use the money they control for patronage (in 1968, racially discriminatory patronage) or people who want to protect the jobs of the people already there.

    https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/23/nyregion/albert-shanker-68-combative-leader-of-teachers-dies.html

    In the aftermath of the 1968 strikes, the State Legislature passed a law that decentralized the city’s schools into 32 districts and gave elected boards the power to run elementary and junior high schools. Working behind the scenes, Mr. Shanker made sure the law contained strong protections for teachers’ jobs.

    ‘We wrote the decentralization law,” he said. With turnouts in school board elections as low as 6 and 7 percent, the union’s endorsements of candidates proved pivotal and it became evident in a few years that the strongest force in decentralization was the United Federation of Teachers.

    But in 1996 Mr. Shanker was critical of decentralization in his interview with Ms. Purnick. Agreeing with many in the education field, he said that community school board elections continued to result in the re-election of corrupt board members, very low voter turnout and confusion caused by unnecessarily complex ballots.

    ”It’s all a shame and it’s a moral outrage,” Mr. Shanker said. ”But how much does that have to do with whether the kids are going to read on grade level or not? There’s some correlation, but I would say not much. Because you’re still not going to educate kids, because you have no educational plan out there.”

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  75. 40. There are grays. Just like there is black and there is white. There are some beliefs I hold that allow room for nuance and debate. There are some that don’t. “Cops should not have any rights or privileges that ordinary citizens don’t enjoy” is one of them that doesn’t.

    Gryph (08c844)

  76. I have personal as well as professional (attorney) experience with both a suburban school district and Chicago Public Schools.

    In the suburbs, the influencers who stick out are 1) the helicopter moms, and I mean Cobra gunship with Hellfire missiles; and 2) the old people who don’t like paying real estate taxes even though their properties’ desirability and value is largely due to the quality of the schools.

    In the City, they are 1) the teachers union which besides going to the barricades for bad teachers will stir up trouble in the schools during contract negotiation time and claim in the media that it’s due to not enough teachers being paid enough; and 2) the wives of assistant principals on the local school council who stir up trouble for the principal with the LSC because their husbands want his or her job; and they often work together.

    nk (1d9030)

  77. @77, “Cops should not have any rights or privileges that ordinary citizens don’t enjoy”

    I can appreciate this…but society doesn’t ask ordinary citizens to apprehend violent criminals, subdue intoxicated or mentally disturbed individuals, or make split second decisions as to what is or isn’t a generalized threat to the public. Don’t you think that cops will be far less apt to rush into a heated situation or dangerous building if reasonable….but wrong…decisions are held against them personally? I get that we want to discourage the shoot-first think-later attitude…that seems to back rationalize actions and excuse poor decision making. But there is some damned if you do, damned if you don’t that mixes in there. The Atlanta shooting might be an example of that. If the cops let Brooks “escape” and he harms someone because he is out of control, then are they also liable? I agree that the scope of QI needs to be re-examined by the SC…to address clearly sloppy policing….but eliminating it completely will make cops hesitate where we don’t want them to (say not rushing into that school shooting because of fear of making a bad shot). Some QI decisions are more egregious than others….I don’t think your black/white claim balances that.

    AJ_Liberty (0f85ca)

  78. I don’t know how this thread went from law enforcement reform to education reform. Blame the teachers! What a sad joke.

    I worked in public education for 20-odd years. First as a student teacher, then as a substitute, and as a full time teacher and adjunct professor. I’ve taught at every grade level from elementary to college.

    I didn’t corrupt my students’ minds. I taught them the scientific method, parts of speech, sentence construction, grammar. How to think analytically, read critically, and write rhetorically.

    Once I was called into the principal’s office and asked why I was teaching grammar. Um, because these students need to learn parts of speech, proper punctuation, sentence construction. No, no, no, I was told, you’re supposed to teach “whole language” learning.

    Okay, so I wrote my lesson plans, which had to be turned in to the principal every week, as if I was following “whole language” learning policies, but in the classroom I kept teaching my students parts of speech, sentence construction, grammar. Analytical thinking, critical reading, rhetorical writing, that’s what an education is all about.

    Then when three times as many of my students passed the state exam as the AP teacher’s students from across the hall, I was called back to the principal’s office and asked what the district needed to do to improve its test scores. I guess that was because my students outscored the others. I said, “You could return to real teaching.”

    Another time I was called to the principal’s office and accused of showing pornography. What?! I followed the curriculum guide, written and approved by the school board, wrote my lesson plan, which was turned over to the principal, checked out a King Arthur movie from the school library, and showed it to my students, as I was required and instructed to do, under district rules.

    And suddenly I’m a pornographer? What about all the other English teachers who checked the same video from the school library and showed it to their students? What about the school board who approved this movie to begin with? Aren’t they all guilty of showing pornography? Isn’t the principal, who should know the curriculum guide and should have read my lesson plans, and should have checked with the school library, responsible as well?

    All I did was follow the curriculum guide, write a lesson plan, then check out a video from the school library. Suddenly, I’m a pornographer?

    The system is broken. It’s way past broken, because it was never fixed to begin with.

    When you have an innocent teacher accused of being a pornographer, for following district guidelines and showing a King Arthur movie, then you have a serious problem.

    Yes, we need real law enforcement and education reform. 2020 will be the year the 20th century came to die.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  79. 79. No, not as a matter of profession. But if I can’t protect my own family from danger, I’m doing something wrong. The purpose of the presence of the police is not to render my right to self-defense moot; it is in order to supplement it so that I don’t have to worry about defending myself and my family constantly. If we are going to re-examine the scope of qualified immunity, it should apply only to cases in which police inaction represents a “failure to protect.” I don’t believe that cops should be sued for inaction or delays in action, but then again, I don’t believe any citizen should be sued for failure to protect his neighbor either.

    Gryph (08c844)

  80. I don’t know how this thread went from law enforcement reform to education reform. Blame the teachers! What a sad joke.

    Deflection, but we’re all just talking here to begin with anyway.

    nk (1d9030)

  81. 82. And by the by, I also believe that I should be able to defend myself, as a citzen, from no-knock midnight raids by paramilitary SWAT police officers.

    Gryph (08c844)

  82. 75. An ideology makes patronage easier, and so does racism and bigotry.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  83. Trump seems to have settled on a reasonable compromise. The question is w could somebody so dumb and clueless do that? He;s not that dub – he pretends to be dumber than he is, especially in tweets, but he doesn’t have enough sense to come up with this. Must be he listens to some people. (occcasionally the wrong people though.)

    De Blasio wanted that exception for when a cop’s life was in danger, but he backed off.

    He also is postponing Phase 2 (especially he opening of playground and parks associated with them) on the grounds he doesn’t know what the effect the protests are going to have on the spread of the virus – it’s said it takes two weeks to find out, so he can’t rely on the pre-established metrics.

    But he’s also not having his contact tracers ask anyone if they’ve been to a protest. Meanwhile, political groups are collecting data electronically on protesters and sending them messages including probably Joe Biden’s campaign.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  84. “This does nothing about the three cowards who didn’t stop the choking.”

    Absurd emotionalism. When should they have stopped it? Sitting on the neck of a suspect, is an Minneapolis PD approved – but risky – maneuver. They weren’t doctors. Give us the answer.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  85. Liberals/Leftists/Media have Zero intellectual honesty. After a week of NOT caring about thousands of “Peaceful Protesters” not practicing social distancing, only occasionally wearing mask, and yelling and screaming (what better way to spread CV-19?). They turn on a dime, and are now GREATLY CONCERNED that Trump’s Rally in Oklahoma will be unhealthy! Incredible. What Chutzpah. They even went to court over it. And lost.

    Hey folks, until we get another round of “Peaceful Protests” its time to be CONCERNED again about CV-19. So when R’s get together, we must be concerned. When D’s and Antifa get together, not so much. LOL!

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  86. Justice Dept. Official to Exit, Signaling Third Departure in Recent Days
    ……..
    The official, Joseph H. Hunt, who previously was chief of staff to Jeff Sessions when he was the attorney general, did not say why he was leaving, and a Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment on his departure. …….

    Besides Mr. Hunt, Brian A. Benczkowski, the head of the Justice Department’s criminal division, said last week that he was leaving in July, and Noel J. Francisco, the solicitor general, told officials at the department that he planned to leave when the Supreme Court wrapped up its session this month.

    Mr. Hunt, a 20-year Justice Department veteran, led the division that defends presidential administrations in court — and that has faced formidable pressure under Mr. Trump as it undertook deeply polarizing cases that career lawyers often refused to sign. ……..

    So many lawyers in the division left or asked to be temporarily reassigned to other parts of the department that at one point it froze reassignment requests.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  87. I don’t really care about choke holds or any of this. All these police matters are a matter for the local and state authorities. Nobody needs the Federal Government to tell them how to regulate their police department.

    But of course, the D’s had to make it a federal issue, because they thought it would bring them political power. Which is ALL they care about. So, the R’s have to respond and we got a reasonable EO from Trump.

    Its absurd, but has to be done, because we the D’s hate America, and will do anything to get power.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  88. Fascinating Rip. Please post more links and extracts about DoJ employees leaving. I don’t think that’s ever happened before.

    rcocean (2e1c02)

  89. “This does nothing about the three cowards who didn’t stop the choking.”

    Absurd emotionalism. When should they have stopped it? Sitting on the neck of a suspect, is an Minneapolis PD approved – but risky – maneuver. They weren’t doctors. Give us the answer.

    rcocean (2e1c02) — 6/17/2020 @ 7:17 am

    At a minimum they should have gotten off of him when he cried out for his mother, passed out, and went limp.
    Or maybe shortly after that when they observed he didn’t have a pulse?

    There were 4 of them, and he was in cuffs.

    Time123 (653992)

  90. rcocean (2e1c02) — 6/17/2020 @ 7:23 am

    until we get another round

    Another round? We’re still in this round and it’s the current playbook. Meanwhile, Google is using it’s private property to police hate speech in the comments section of other content providers and the peaceful protestors in CHOP are dealing with hate speech from street preachers.

    frosty (f27e97)

  91. Rcocean,

    I for one hope more lifers leave the DOJ and other government agencies.

    NJRob (4fd2eb)

  92. if people had more faith in mr. president donald trump, who had an old gold Chevy and a place of his own, they would not worry so much

    they would trust him to kiss everything and make it well

    but they only profess to trust him

    they don’t, not really

    and they’re right

    not to trust him, i mean

    nk (1d9030)

  93. Meanwhile, Google is using it’s private property to police hate speech in the comments section of other content providers and the peaceful protestors in CHOP are dealing with hate speech from street preachers.

    If you’re talking about Zero Hedge and the Federalist what happened is different from what’s reported.

    As you may have read on NBC, Google has decided to suspend ad hosting on the “far-right” Zero Hedge (which apparently can be anything from “batshit insane Austrian school blog” to Russian propaganda or framed in any other way that serves the agenda of those who disagree with our views – which apparently these days is a lot of people) along with The Federalist, a decision that would have a materially adverse impact for both websites. The reason presented to us for this decision is far more mundane than what has been disclosed by NBC: we are currently appealing it, and expect to remedy it.

    That said, we were surprised by the framing of the suspension by the NBC article, which disturbingly appears to be another attempt at activist targeting of inconvenient media outlets, especially since the core argument presented by the NBC employee is different than what Google actually has said. In fact, half the NBC article just happens to be dead wrong.

    Time123 (306531)

  94. @75 and 78 And that’s what local control is. People who have an interest taking an interest.

    @80 The pornography question was almost certainly a parent call. You would not believe the parent calls we get. The unit on ancient mythology almost always always gets at least one call about why we are teaching witch-craft and/or devil worship. Your principal should’ve known better thought.

    Nic (896fdf)

  95. https://nypost.com/2020/06/19/andrew-cuomos-big-lie-on-nursing-homes-and-the-post

    Gov. Andrew Cuomo keeps trying to dodge the blame for Health Commissioner Howard Zucker’s deadly nursing-home order by pretending that The Post has created a phony scandal for purely partisan reasons…

    ,,The central issue is Zucker’s March 25 order telling New York nursing homes to admit patients from hospitals without regard to their COVID-19 status — indeed, without testing. That mandate clearly led to thousands of coronavirus fatalities in the state.

    Just this week, the distinctly left-leaning ProPublica reported that Rensselaer County Executive Steve McLaughlin told the county-run Van Rensselaer Manor to defy the order and refuse to admit any COVID-positive patients. That 320-bed home hasn’t had a single coronavirus death. Diamond Hill, a private 120-bed nursing home in the same county, obeyed — and saw 18 residents die from the virus.

    Yet the gov sticks to his lies — and not just about The Post. This week he repeated his claim that Zucker was simply obeying federal orders, insisting, “Why did the federal government — federal government — give that guidance to states? That’s the only relevant question.”

    In fact, the feds never told states they had to dump contagious patients into the midst of their most vulnerable populations — PolitiFact has detailed why the gov’s claim is false.

    “Coronavirus in a nursing home is like fire in dry grass,” the governor said early in the crisis. “The only question is how many ­people will die.”

    No, the real question is how many died ­because of Zucker’s order. And the point of Cuomo’s desperate lies is to stop New Yorkers from asking it.

    Now here you had people going along.

    Two interesting points. though:

    1) This happened outside of New York, too, and even in Canada. So there was something else they were relying on.

    2) The case of Rensselaer County proves that Cuomo is right n oe respect: they could have refused to take those patients.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)


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