Patterico's Pontifications

6/13/2020

Weekend Open Thread

Filed under: General — Dana @ 9:49 am



[guest post by Dana]

Good morning. Here are a few news items for you to chew over. Feel free to share any items that you think readers would find interesting. Please make sure to include links.

First news item

Wait. Didn’t he tell us he had met with black leaders before setting the date??:

We had previously scheduled our #MAGA Rally in Tulsa, Oklahoma, for June 19th – a big deal. Unfortunately, however, this would fall on the Juneteenth Holiday. Many of my African American friends and supporters have reached out to suggest that we consider changing the date out of respect for this Holiday, and in observance of this important occasion and all that it represents. I have therefore decided to move our rally to Saturday, June 20th, in order to honor their requests. We have already had ticket requests in excess of 200,000 people. I look forward to seeing everyone in Oklahoma!

Second news item

Just stop with the visual stunts:

Untitled

The announcement did not warrant such a visual stunt, but the Democratic Party, the party of optics and gesture, apparently could not resist. On Monday, members of Congress introduced the Justice in Policing Act of 2020, news that was bulldozed by the pageant antics accompanying it. Swathed in identical kente stoles, the lawmakers, intent on conveying solidarity with their constituents, only made themselves models of obtuseness.

Knock off the tokenism, dear Democrats:

Third news item

Consider yourself warned:

For over 12 years, the Cornell cat did not pounce. Though there were frequent and aggressive attempts by outsiders to get me fired, including threats and harassment, it always came from off campus.

I made great efforts to keep this website separate from my work. I did not write about Cornell that frequently, and rarely about the law school itself. Nonetheless, the website and my political views were the elephant in every room, because the website is widely read, particularly by non-liberal students. Over the years, many students approached me privately and behind closed doors to express gratitude that someone was able to speak up, because they remained politically silent out of fear of social ostracization with the related possible career damage from falsely being accused of one of the “-ists” or “-isms.”

Not until now, to the best of my knowledge, has there been an effort from inside the Cornell community to get me fired.

From the law school Dean:

…. In light of this deep and rich tradition of walking the walk of racial justice, in no uncertain terms, recent blog posts of Professor William Jacobson, casting broad and categorical aspersions on the goals of those protesting for justice for Black Americans, do not reflect the values of Cornell Law School as I have articulated them. I found his recent posts to be both offensive and poorly reasoned…. But to take disciplinary action against him for the views he has expressed would fatally pit our values against one another in ways that would corrode our ability to operate as an academic institution.”

Fourth news item

City leaders want AG office to open investigation:

In 2006, Cariol Horne, a black Buffalo police officer, intervened when a white officer, Gregory Kwiatkowski, had a black suspect, David Mack, in a chokehold. Horne jumped on Kwiatkowski’s back to prevent him from harming Mack. In 2008, she was fired from the Buffalo Police Department for her intervention in that case and lost her pension.

Horne, who had been on the force for 19 years, was just one year away from earning her pension. The Buffalo Police Department investigated the incident and its final report said Horne’s actions put her fellow officers in danger.

“She’s a woman, and a black woman, and she broke the wall of silence,” she said. “So basically (the department said) let’s get rid of her because she’s somebody that we can’t depend on to be silent in matters like this.”

Fifth news item

Trump on police: ‘You’ll always have a bad apple…: [Yes, but one bad apple spoils the whole barrel. Ed]:

Dismissing police misconduct as the work of only a few “bad apples,” Mr. Trump strongly defended law enforcement agencies and made clear he had little interest in broader legislation being debated in Congress. At a round-table discussion he convened in a Dallas church before hosting a campaign fund-raiser, the president derided activists calling for defunding or dismantling police departments.

“Instead, we have to go the opposite way,” Mr. Trump said. “We must invest more energy and resources in police training and recruiting and community engagement. We have to respect our police — we have to take care of our police. They’re protecting us, and if they’re allowed to do their job, they’ll do a great job. You always have a bad apple no matter where you go. You have bad apples. There are not too many of them, and I can tell you there are not too many of them in the police department.”

Sixth news item

Let’s pray that they are right:

There is plenty of evidence that existing vaccines such as polio vaccines protect children against a wide range of infections and it’s worth trying them out against the new coronavirus, a team of experts wrote in Science magazine Thursday.

An oral polio vaccine is safe, cheap, easy to give and widely available, with more than 1 billion doses produced and used annually in more than 140 countries, according to the team, which includes one of the scientists who discovered HIV and a vaccine expert from the Food and Drug Administration. The vaccine has nearly eradicated polio worldwide.

“We propose the use of OPV (oral poliovirus vaccine ) to ameliorate or prevent COVID-19. Both poliovirus and coronavirus are positive-strand RNA viruses; therefore, it is likely that they may induce and be affected by common innate immunity mechanisms,” they wrote. ” … Oral poliovirus vaccine in particular, could provide temporary protection against coronavirus disease.”

–Dana

289 Responses to “Weekend Open Thread”

  1. Hello.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  2. If you want to know who really has privilege, where systemic discrimination comes from, determine whom in society you are not allowed to criticize.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  3. https://legalinsurrection.com/2020/06/nypd-lieutenant-apologizes-for-taking-a-knee-to-protesters-i-know-i-made-the-wrong-decision/

    Talk about the insanity of the masses that made this cop take a knee because he was in fear for his life.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  4. If you want to know who really has privilege, where systemic discrimination comes from, determine whom in society you are not allowed to criticize.

    It’s written down, so it must be true.

    nk (1d9030)

  5. So pelosi and company were wearing the garb of slave traders.

    Narciso (7404b5)

  6. I think in retrospect she was the wrong lizard

    Narciso (7404b5)

  7. “If you want to know who really has privilege, where systemic discrimination comes from, determine whom in society you are not allowed to criticize.”

    Who aren’t you allowed to criticize?

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  8. Thought I have been kicking around in my head the past couple of days: A few weeks from now, when George Floyd is but a memory and people are enjoying their summer (assuming a second COVID wave hasn’t hit), the efforts to put police under tighter control and to dial back the protections that police unions have negotiated for their members will be quietly undermined by a coalition of firefighter, teacher, and nurses unions who understand that if police unions are reformed their unions will be next. There will naturally be some changes in how police officers are managed, and perhaps in a city like Minneapolis those changes will be significant, but nationwide we will quietly slide back to the status quo ante.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  9. 2nd item- I know this isn’t supposed to be the takeaway from that item, but I’m kind of impressed with Nancy. 80 yrs old and down on one knee, in heels. Good for her.

    3rd item- The Dean did the right thing. “I disagree with what he says but support his right to say it.” is essential to freedom of speech.

    5th item- It isn’t just a bad apple problem, it’s far more systemic than that, but Trump isn’t wrong on some of what needs to be done. Increased community engagement and training would help the issue.

    @8 It isn’t environmental regs ruining rural America across the country, it’s subsidizing large agribusiness and small factories shutting down and/or moving overseas. The Klamath Falls argument has been on ongoing problem for abt 3 decades now and it gets covered here all the time. Its a complicated emotional issue that has as much to do with inter-state rivalries as anything else. The Klamath river also NOT a big river.

    Nic (896fdf)

  10. Swathed in identical kente stoles, the lawmakers

    In some circles that is called cultural appropriation.

    Hoi Polloi (dc4124)

  11. Suffragette white would have easily been misconstrued.

    nk (1d9030)

  12. 12, Rep. Cohen from Memphis must have swiped some cloth from KFCs he used to frequent circa the early 1990s.

    urbanleftbehind (af1a5f)

  13. Why QAnon supporters are winning congressional primaries
    ……..
    So what’s up with two congressional candidates who have embraced this relatively new conspiracy theory winning their primaries in 2020? One even has a good shot of going to Congress.

    In May, Jo Rae Perkins won a Republican Senate primary in Oregon after saying she supports the conspiracy theory. And on Tuesday, Marjorie Taylor Greene made it to an August runoff in a competitive Republican congressional primary in northwest Georgia. Greene is now a pretty sure bet to make it to Congress: She beat her runoff opponent by 20 points in the primary, and the district is a safe Republican one.
    ……..
    …….”Two is not a trend,” said Joseph Uscinski at the University of Miami, who has written a book about why people believe in conspiracy theories.

    He said there is probably more we can take away from the roughly 50 QAnon supporters who are running for Congress this year. Their campaigns suggest adherents of a fringe theory feel emboldened to come out of the shadows under Trump.

    QAnon believers tend to support other conspiracy theories about government, experts said. And Trump has tacitly breathed life into these ideas. The central theme around QAnon fits his argument that he’s an outsider being dragged down by (mostly Democratic) lawmakers who feel threatened by him and the change he brings to governing.

    Trump hasn’t explicitly endorsed QAnon, but he seems aware that its adherents align with his base. He has retweeted QAnon supporters, and there has been a growth of “Q” signs at his rallies.

    Perhaps just as important, he has embraced other conspiracy theories. His first big step into politics was when he alleged that President Barack Obama wasn’t born in the United States. In just the past few weeks, he has pushed conspiracy theories about the death of a congressional staffer of a now-prominent MSNBC host, or that a 75-year-old Buffalo protester knocked unconscious by police was actually antifa.
    ………
    Liberal research firm Media Matters has tracked 50 QAnon supporters running for Congress. Most of them have lost their primaries already. A handful automatically made it on the general election ballot in California because of election laws that send the top two on, but for now most don’t seem to have momentum to actually win.
    …….
    Greene in Georgia seems the most likely to actually make it to Congress. ……
    ………..
    ………. Sen. Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.) is the heavy favorite to win reelection, so Oregon Republicans didn’t really try to put up a major candidate. (Still, Perkins beat three other candidates.)

    The Georgia race is a bit more difficult to parse. There were six Republican candidates running for the seat left vacated by retiring Rep. Tom Graves (R). That tends to slice the electorate so that a candidate with a relatively small base of support can win.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  14. @12 apparently the congressional black caucus asked them to wear the kente cloths

    Nic (896fdf)

  15. JVW @ 10,

    I think you are spot-on in your observations.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  16. 3rd item- The Dean did the right thing. “I disagree with what he says but support his right to say it.” is essential to freedom of speech.

    You know what would have been even more awesome? “It doesn’t matter what I think of what he said. He said it on his own private time, he has every right to express his opinion, and I am not going to get into the habit of commenting on every utterance of my faculty colleagues.” Adding the whole “I disagree with it” is just the way for the dean to virtue-signal that his heart is still with the woke crowd.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  17. Who aren’t you allowed to criticize?

    Ask David Shor.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  18. @19 I think the message would get lost in the weeds if he did that, it leaves too much room for people to think they can weasel around and get him to change his mind. It might be virtue signalling to have said he disagreed, but it’s also a very clear message of “I support my colleagues right to free speech even if I disagree with them.” There isn’t a lot of room to get around that one.

    Nic (896fdf)

  19. A PSA about Trump’s new favorite “news” network, OAN.
    One, they have uncomfortably close ties to Putin and Russia. They reported on audiotape recordings between Biden and Poroshenko, obtained by Adriy Derkach, a Yanukovych ally who graduate from a KGB-run academy in Moscow.
    Two, they literally hired a Russian propagandist as one of their reporters (who infamously “reported” on Gugino), a guy who literally worked for Kremlin-controlled Sputnik News.
    Three, they literally delete news on polls that make Trump look bad, just any good Soviet apparatchik would do for Brezhnev.
    Four, it pains me to link to Mother Jones, but they have the goods on their cast of characters.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  20. Fun fact: Not all Kente cloth comes from the same tribes or specific locales, but the patterns on the cloth used in this stunt are recognizable as royal Ashanti patterns. The Ashanti tribe built their wealth along the Gold Coast by selling other tribes’ members into slavery.

    Gryph (08c844)

  21. Kentucky to remove statue of Confederate leader Jefferson Davis from Capitol
    Kentucky on Friday agreed to remove a statue of Confederate President Jefferson Davis from its State Capitol building, the latest action in a renewed drive to take down such monuments in the wake of nationwide protests for racial justice.

    In a bipartisan vote, a state historical commission agreed to remove the statue of Davis, president of the short-lived Confederate States of America, from its Capitol Rotunda in Frankfort. Democratic Governor Andy Beshear lauded the move, saying it was overdue.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  22. For those who were touting the recent attacks on cops by BLM or Antifa, scratch the guy who ambushed a couple of cops in Santa Cruz (murdering one of them). He’s a full-on right-wing Boogaloo nutjob.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  23. Tight polls put GOP on edge in Texas
    Texas Republicans are on edge as polls show President Trump and presumptive Democratic nominee Joe Biden running neck and neck in the Lone Star State with less than five months to go before Election Day.
    …….
    Five House Republicans from the Texas delegation are retiring at the end of the year and the nonpartisan Cook Political Report rates three of those as either toss-ups or leaning Democratic.
    …..
    A Quinnipiac University survey released last week found Trump leading Biden by 1 point in Texas. Trump leads by 2.2 points in the RealClearPolitics average.

    Texas Republicans are primarily worried about their standing in the suburbs, where women and independents have steadily gravitated away from the GOP since Trump took office.
    …..
    Republicans say Trump has so far missed an opportunity to appeal to suburban voters in Texas during this time of historic civil unrest around the police killing of George Floyd.
    …….
    Trump’s 9-point victory in Texas in 2016 was the closest presidential outcome since former President Jimmy Carter (D) carried the state more than 40 years ago.
    ………
    In the 2018 midterms, O’Rourke fell short to Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) by 2.5 points. But O’Rourke turned out more voters in Texas than Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton did in 2016.

    Also in 2018, Democrats picked up two GOP-held House seats in Texas. Six other GOP House members in Texas won reelection by 5 points or fewer. The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee has opened headquarters in Texas, making it the only state nationwide where the House campaign arm has a full team on the ground.
    ……..
    Texas has added more than 2.5 million people to its voter rolls since 2016. The state does not register voters by party, but many of the new voters are believed to be young people, Latinos, or newcomers from blue states, such as California, Illinois and New York.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  24. There’s a lot of nonsense about Michael Jackson on Twitter right now with #MichaelJacksonVindicated trending at this moment. What the hell is this all about? Does it have something to do with Donald Trump’s new buddy Kayne West lauding Jackson in a magazine interview a few days ago? Why must we be fated to live in such incessantly stupid times culture-wise?

    JVW (ee64e4)

  25. Why Donald Trump is standing up for the Confederacy
    In the midst of a pandemic, an unprecedented economic crisis and a national reckoning with racist police practices, the president of the United States is planting his flag in the ground and proclaiming that he will not be moved.

    Unfortunately, it’s the flag of the Confederacy.

    President Trump always knows a good culture-war flash point when he sees one, and as the protests over police brutality have led to a new effort to remove racist symbols from public places and government installations, Trump has decided this is the fight he’s looking for. …….
    …….
    Let’s pause to note that it is an outright obscenity that we have military bases named for Confederate officers, people who waged war on the United States of America in order to maintain slavery. There is no Fort Himmler or Fort Tojo in the United States, and with good reason.

    ………When you put up a statue to someone or name a military base for him, you’re not making a value-free statement that “this was an important figure in American history.”
    ……
    We put up statues of people and name things for them not to remind everyone that they existed, but so they can be venerated, celebrated and honored.
    …..
    But Trump, proud son of Queens, believes firmly that stirring up division is essential to his success, and he’s always looking for ways to promote right-wing revanchism and resentment. He’s particularly drawn to symbolic fights where he can take an angry stand against cultural change.
    ……..
    …….[S]marter Republican politicians would prefer to talk about something else. They realize that while a core of their constituency might want to hold on to the Confederacy, it’s not where the GOP needs to go if it wants to be competitive in the future.

    But Trump won’t listen to those saner voices. Much like the neo-Confederates themselves, he’s fighting a war that has already been lost.
    ————-
    The men who are honored with statues and Army bases are traitors, whether they switched sides for love of states or to support slavery. They clearly violated the treason clause of the Constitution and should never be dignified with honor.

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  26. Paul: Carrillo as guilty party calls to mind Cesar Sayoc with an actual body count…some true believers will say he’s a fake or a patsy and other true believers will say the swarthier people cant handle the fire water.

    urbanleftbehind (af1a5f)

  27. “Ask David Shor.”

    Perhaps we could also ask Steve Linick.

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  28. More to the point, JVW

    Thanks! The more you know. . .

    JVW (ee64e4)

  29. Perhaps we could also ask Steve Linick.

    That’s the spirit! And see, you can indeed answer your own questions!

    (Or were you just trying to be argumentative?)

    JVW (ee64e4)

  30. Holy cow:

    Remember Michael Flor, the longest-hospitalized COVID-19 patient who, when he unexpectedly did not die, was jokingly dubbed “the miracle child?”

    Now they can also call him the million-dollar baby.

    Flor, 70, who came so close to death in the spring that a night-shift nurse held a phone to his ear while his wife and kids said their final goodbyes, is recovering nicely these days at his home in West Seattle. But he says his heart almost failed a second time when he got the bill from his health care odyssey the other day.

    “I opened it and said ‘holy [bleep]!’ “ Flor says.

    The total tab for his bout with the coronavirus: $1.1 million. $1,122,501.04, to be exact. All in one bill that’s more like a book because it runs to 181 pages.

    The bill is technically an explanation of charges, and because Flor has insurance including Medicare, he won’t have to pay the vast majority of it….

    Dana (25e0dc)

  31. “(Or were you just trying to be argumentative?”

    Well, that’s the point of these forums, is it not?

    Ultimately it’s a banal observation. You can’t criticize those who have power over you. This isn’t to day I agree with the results. I don’t.

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  32. Contest!

    Find the most offensive left-wing idiocy posted publicly by a Cornell professor (or administrator). I’m sure there are some dillies. I will bet that not one whisper of disapproval came from the faculty regarding them.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  33. I did wonder why Maxine Waters wasn’t in that Kente photo-op. Didn’t the Speaker talk to the Black Caucus before she called the reporters?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. “She’s a woman, and a black woman, and she broke the wall of silence,” she said. “So basically (the department said) let’s get rid of her because she’s somebody that we can’t depend on to be silent in matters like this.”

    It really does smell. I am going to bet that she said several things before she intervened, too. All of which were ignored to the point she took direct action. Why a 19-year veteran’s demands were ignored is yet another thing to look at.

    Since her action is exactly what some would have wanted those ROOKIES to do in the Floyd case, and she got fired for it, it is pretty clear the rookies were in a no-win position. To fire them and charge them with felonies seems political and unlikely to be sustained.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. “We propose the use of OPV (oral poliovirus vaccine ) to ameliorate or prevent COVID-19.

    Every old person who died has had that vaccine. There is no known duration other than “many years”, according to the CDC.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  36. As far as the Confederacy, white-washing it won’t help. Nor will white-washing Jim Crow and later discrimination. It would help if the history of who supported and who opposed these things were taught as well, but we all know why that is.

    If “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it” then a corollary would be that “Those who erase the past INTEND to repeat it.”

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  37. “Since her action is exactly what some would have wanted those ROOKIES to do in the Floyd case, and she got fired for it, it is pretty clear the rookies were in a no-win position. To fire them and charge them with felonies seems political and unlikely to be sustained.”

    Just following orders.

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  38. ““Those who erase the past INTEND to repeat it.””

    A good analysis of the Lost Cause movement.

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  39. @38 according to several stories, the rest of the congress people were there at the invite of the congressional black caucus.

    Nic (896fdf)

  40. Trump on police: ‘You’ll always have a bad apple…:

    Better a bad apple than a rotten orange.

    Dave (1bb933)

  41. The risks to the OPV may be greater than we know because the research is based on Russian studies that showed no adverse effects. Every other country that used it had some patients who got polio, but the OPV is cheaper and easier to administer so they still use it in third world countries. We can try it here. The risk may be worth it, but don’t fall for it if they tell you it is low risk. There is a reason we use Salk’s vaccine and not Sabin’s.

    DRJ (15874d)

  42. If the theory is that live virus vaccines may help stop Covid, then we could also try the live measles vaccine. It has risks, too, but measles is a disease that is still in America. Polio is largely eradicated.

    DRJ (15874d)

  43. A good analysis of the Lost Cause movement.

    The Lost Cause “movement” died in about 1930, with the last of the rebels. It only lives on in the calumnies of leftsists.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. Just following orders.

    Just like you to refuse to engage, but instead cast aspersions.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  45. Maybe I misread — are you saying that the BLM protesters are “the Lost Cause ” folks?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  46. The Lost Cause “movement” died in about 1930, with the last of the rebels. It only lives on in the calumnies of leftsists.

    Uh, no, not even no, but he..ck no. Today, in 2020 there are Lost Cause groups, Sons of Confederate Veterans, active today, now. United Daughters of the Confederacy, now. League of the South, now…etc.

    Since the 1980’s they’ve changed from “Lost Cause” because…it’s a lost cause, to the neo-confederate movement, but same people, same message, same thing.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  47. “Just like you to refuse to engage, but instead cast aspersions.”

    Here’s my engagement. The poor innocent rookies stood by while their co-worker killed a man. Is “keeping their jobs” an adequate excuse for not intervening?

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  48. Those darn Antifa squads…

    By: Robert GarrisonPosted at 3:15 PM, Jun 13, 2020 and last updated 5:19 PM, Jun 13, 2020
    LOVELAND, Colo. — Police in Loveland arrested a man Thursday after he held two door-to-door roofing salesmen at gunpoint who he thought were members of Antifa.

    Officers arrived on scene and found Gudmundsen, described by a concerned 911 caller as wearing tactical gear and armed with a rifle, holding the two men at gunpoint.

    According to the news release, the two men were in their early twenties and identified as door-to-door roofing salesmen doing roof inspections in response to the recent hail storm. They were wearing white surgical masks, polo shirts showing their company name and shorts.

    One of the salesmen is black and a student-athlete at Colorado State University, according to reports. But school officials have declined to identify the player, citing the on-going investigation.

    Gudmundsen son apologized to the victims and said dad was mentally ill, his neighbors said that he is a a giant racist and a militia member, potOEto potAHto.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  49. @38 according to several stories, the rest of the congress people were there at the invite of the congressional black caucus.

    According to what I read, the CBC gave Pelosi and company those Kent’s shawls specifically to wear for the photo op.

    Kishnevi (520c45)

  50. Kent’s=Kente

    Does anyone know how to turn off autocorrect in Chrome for Android? If there’s a setting for it, I haven’t found it.

    Kishnevi (520c45)

  51. These booger boys aren’t very smart, but make up for it with a lack of common sense.

    A formidably armed man with a Nazi tattoo who tried to march alongside police at a Black Lives Matter protest in Las Vegas is facing a charge of impersonating a federal officer.

    Zachary Sanns was spotted at a rally that moved along Fremont and 7th streets late last month, wearing plain clothes, a tactical vest, a ballistic helmet and night-vision goggles, according to a federal complaint filed this week.

    Sanns, who faces one count of false impersonation of an officer or employee of the United States, had driven to the protest in a black Chevy Tahoe with blue lights in the grill activated, the complaint stated.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  52. Does anyone know how to turn off autocorrect in Chrome for Android? If there’s a setting for it, I haven’t found it.

    I think it’s in the main OS settings, under keyboard settings, at least on my Samsung Tab.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  53. The shooting and killing of Rayshard Brooks last night looks really bad. TMZ has video of him getting shot by Altanta PD while fleeing. Brooks was firing back with a non-lethal taser. IMO, it did not justify a lethal response. There is all kinds of wrong with this. He was in his car, in a Wendy’s parking lot, asleep, when APD awakened him and tested his blood alcohol. Yes, the guy resisted arrest, but I don’t see how or why he deserved to die.
    I don’t foresee a CHAZ (Central Hill Autonomous Zone) getting established in Atlanta, but I do see a lot more protesting taking place, and it won’t be pretty. The Atlanta police chief is already out of a job.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  54. Autofill service?

    Kishnevi (520c45)

  55. The shooting and killing of Rayshard Brooks…

    This one seems a bit less cut and dried. He takes the taser from one cop, and is shot by another one, I think, when he points the taser. Split second, in the dark, a taser looks like a pistol, because it is. You’d have to see the bodycam footage to see of cop 2 could tell if cop 1 lost his taser, or told him he lost his taser vs gun. It cost the police chief her job already.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  56. Since the 1980’s they’ve changed from “Lost Cause” because…it’s a lost cause

    The Flat Earthers still exist too. I was speaking of their effective end.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  57. I turned on CNN and they have the full video and it looks like it’s cop 2, and he pulls his gun as the guy points the taser. In slow motion it looks like he should have known, but I don’t think that it’s as clear in the moment.

    I’d question why it escalated to the taser level first.

    According to the training courseware (PDF) it doesn’t look like this rises to a deadly force use criteria. Morally this cop may be guilty, but I don’t know if a jury would find him guilty, but with the current climate, I wouldn’t want to guess.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  58. Here’s my engagement. The poor innocent rookies stood by while their co-worker killed a man. Is “keeping their jobs” an adequate excuse for not intervening?

    Their training officer, actually. What isn’t said is what the department had as acceptable procedures. They are clearly scapegoats here.

    Today, the Atlanta mayor, who is quickly becoming toxic as a VP candidate, accepted the resignation of the police chief after a shooting that the mayor felt was unwarranted. The mayor demanded the police department fire the officer involved. NO word why the police chief resigned, and the office has not yet been fired.

    https://apnews.com/4a297ba576eb60e77e8c302686a877e7

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  59. He was in his car, in a Wendy’s parking lot, asleep, when APD awakened him and tested his blood alcohol.

    He was apparently blocking the Wendy’s drive-thru, which is why the police got involved. Not that this is a shooting offense, but the mayor demanding the officer be fired before a hearing is held and the investigator’s facts presented isn’t right either.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  60. The Flat Earthers still exist too. I was speaking of their effective end.

    Like I’ve said, I live in Northern Kentucky, and I can tell you that it isn’t. I was at the Kroger today and a guy was in his pickup with a giant confederate flag flying in the back, I’ve seen it around for a few years. It also has a “Socialism destroys Freedom” sticker, and one with a Smokey the Bear in a MAGA hat with “Only you can prevent SOCIALISM” around him.

    I was checking out next to him, he was using his/a WIC card at check out. Destroy socialism indeed. He also looked like he’d just finished half a pound of meth, and had lives in his aunt-mommy’s basement. Not to stereotype. He also had a sweet SS face tattoo, with 88 on his head.

    Maybe he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but he’s shouting it loudly with his actions, and he’s not the lone one I’ve seen.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  61. Autofill service?

    No, that’s the function that fills in your email, name, passwords if you have it enabled. I’ll have to go to my office and pull out the tab.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  62. I see the police escalating the situation in Atlanta right now at the Wendy’s. Sometimes it’s just better to back off and not give the crowd/mob something to fight against. They didn’t appear to be doing anything but blocking traffic.

    Strategic withdrawal isn’t “losing” a battle, it’s avoiding-or delaying-it. Plus, they’re the police, and they’re not fighting an enemy.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  63. There are two videos (both here: https://youtu.be/RP6lAQFHtGM?t=38 ).

    The first shows a struggle between two officers trying to wrestle the man down and into handcuffs. That ends, and you see the man running away and being pursued. He then turns and FIRES what is apparently a Taser he got in the struggle. At that point the pursuing officer shoots and kills him while trying not to get hit by the Taser.

    I don’t think I would have fired at that point, but that’s me sitting calmly at my PC. They had been struggling with this guy for a while and he did SHOOT at the cops. A Taser isn’t a bullet, but it can injure of kill just the same.

    The mayor should have let the process continue and it will be interesting to hear the whole story of why the police chief resigned. In any even the mayor is increasingly damaged goods for VP.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  64. I was checking out next to him, he was using his/a WIC card at check out.

    I was in Alaska shortly after the Pipeline jobs ended. I must have been the only one in the store not using food stamps.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  65. Atlanta burning?

    “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.” – Rhett Butler [Clark Gable] ‘Gone With The Wind’ 1939

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  66. Klink, found it. Thank you.

    Kishnevi (520c45)

  67. There are a lot more white people on welfare than non-white. They are also the populist core of Trump’s base. Rich jerkoffs and poor white trash — the antebellum South and the 2020 Republican Party.

    nk (1d9030)

  68. Not that this is a shooting offense, but the mayor demanding the officer be fired before a hearing is held and the investigator’s facts presented isn’t right either.

    I agree. The mayor already put the police chief’s metaphorical head on a metaphorical pike, and that’s understandable because the message the chief should’ve received from the mayor is for the APD to use some restraint, and then this happens.
    But the cop who shot Brooks should go through the official process, not get fired. Floyd’s death couldn’t have been more obvious, but last night was in the heat of the moment. However, it looks really bad to use lethal force when the perp had a non-lethal weapon. The video made clear that it’s not hard to distinguish between a taser and a .38, and the guy was fleeing.
    And the other question is this: Why was there no back-up? In my neck of the woods, when there’s a police call, three cop cars showing up is a light response.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  69. It should be remembered that Professor Jacobson is a Jooooo who supports the Zionist invaders against the legitimate aspirations of the oppressed Palestinian people!

    I’m surprised that he’s lasted this long.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  70. In Georgia, state law specifically says that a taser isn’t a deadly weapon, so the escalation based on that can’t be justified. The defense may be reaction to something that looks like a gun. I don’t think either cop had a bodycam, one definitely didn’t.

    I’d also say the cop shouldn’t have fired because it looks like there are cars and bystanders downrange. Cops don’t have to own the bullets fired like you or I, there’s a prosecutor attached to every bullet you fire, especially if you’re out of your house, and there’s a no threat to others.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  71. ‘Just stop the visual stunts’

    ROFLMAOPIP– goose/gander- what goes around, comes around, kids–

    Reaganoptics:

    ‘Michael Deaver choreographed [Reagan’s] most famous photo ops – from his visit to the Berlin Wall to his trip to Normandy on the anniversary of D-Day. When Reagan died, it was Deaver who arranged for the former president to be laid to rest under the setting sun at his presidential library in Simi Valley, California.’- source, Deaver obit; AP

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  72. nk wrote:

    There are a lot more white people on welfare than non-white. They are also the populist core of Trump’s base. Rich jerkoffs and poor white trash — the antebellum South and the 2020 Republican Party.

    And the #NeverTrumpers wonder why more Republicans and conservatives don’t find their arguments persuasive. While I’m never certain when our Windy City barrister is simply being sarcastic, that statement ranks right up there with the lovely Mrs Clinton’s ‘basket of deplorables’ comment.

    Dale Carnegie could not be reached for comment.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  73. that it’s not hard to distinguish between a taser and a .38, and the guy was fleeing.

    The guy was fleeing after taking a weapon from police. Some people you can’t let flee (e.g. armed bank robbers). I don’t know what department policy is wrt fleeing with a police weapon.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  74. Can we put a special block on DCSCA use of “Reagan”?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  75. Why was there no back-up? In my neck of the woods, when there’s a police call, three cop cars showing up is a light response.

    Depends on the neck of the woods. Some places are pretty busy on a Friday night.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  76. I am not being sarcastic, and I am pleased by your formulation, “Republicans and conservatives”, two different groups.

    nk (1d9030)

  77. He was drunk, they’d already taken his ID and verified it, and they had his car. Where was he going to go, a taser is single shot, it’s shot was shot? Call for reinforcements or go pick him up when he’s hungover tomorrow.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  78. If he really tried to shoot the cop with the Taser, it’s a clearcut case of self-defense. You can use deadly force to defend yourself from disabling force which a Taser is, or to prevent the commission of a violent felony which shooting a cop with a Taser is.

    nk (1d9030)

  79. The guy was fleeing after taking a weapon from police.

    The cop said out loud, on tape, “hands off the taser”, a non-lethal weapon. I’m not seeing how the police response wasn’t disproportionate. The Atlanta SOP Manual stated when lethal force should be used.

    1. He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others; or
    2. When there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (O.C.G.A. Section 17-4-20) and the employee reasonably believes that the suspect’s escape would create a continuing danger of serious physical harm to any person.”

    Link. #1 doesn’t apply because a taser isn’t a “deadly weapon” and it doesn’t look like #2 applies either.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  80. Poland accidentally invades Czechoslovakia Republic.

    The Polish military has admitted it accidentally invaded the Czech Republic last month, but it insists its brief occupation of a small part of the country was simply a “misunderstanding.”

    Now that’s an understatement.

    Poland doesn’t invade other countries, it gets invaded.

    How could they screw up something so simple?

    Sheesh.

    Dave (1bb933)

  81. @41-
    As far as the Confederacy, white-washing it won’t help. Nor will white-washing Jim Crow and later discrimination. It would help if the history of who supported and who opposed these things were taught as well, but we all know why that is.
    I agree that we shouldn’t white-wash (interesting choice of words) the history of the Confederacy or Jim Crow. But we don’t need to tell their stories by “honoring” them by naming or placing statues in government institutions.

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  82. Through 2017 approximately 1000 people died after a taser was used on them.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser_safety_issues#Deaths_and_injuries_related_to_Taser_use

    Kishnevi (520c45)

  83. The outrage on video airing on CNN: Texaco regular is only $1.89/gal in metro Atlanta.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  84. Poland doesn’t invade other countries, it gets invaded.

    It invaded Czechoslovakia along with Hitler in 1938 and grabbed a piece of it too. But I am not foreclosing the possibility of that being accidental as well.

    nk (1d9030)

  85. @48-
    The Lost Cause “movement” died in about 1930, with the last of the rebels. It only lives on in the calumnies of leftsists.
    I think those who marched in torchlight parades in Charlottesville in support of Confederate statues, as well as other groups opposing statue removals, qualify as Lost Causers. In addition, the United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans are two Lost Cause organizations which still exist.

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  86. give me a read on this, nk. My wife and I have been walking our dogs on a path 3/4 of a mile to the power lines. For 27 years, off and on. A well worn path has developed over that time. The power company has maintained a work road for 8 years. A new masshole land owner has put up no trespassing signs between his lot lines, on the maintained power company road. I do the leg work to find out who this owner is and write him a letter, explaining how many people have walked the dog in that area. He called me and gave me his attorneys number. Since I was just a neighbor complaining the layer was cruising along until I uttered the phrase “Adverse Possession” and then told him that 27 year old path will allow us to acquire an easement. He concurred and the signs were down later that week. I have been working with a new client a {gulp} a land dispute lawyer. He laid it out for me and told me exactly how it would go down. No charge plus has lined me up with specialists in areas for my granddaughter. Some of you gentlemen and lady lawyers are solid.

    mg (8cbc69)

  87. Sorry, didn’t see #51.

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  88. #92-
    Given the cowardice of school police during mass shootings, who will notice?

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  89. Kish, I appreciate the wiki entry, but tasers are intended to be an alternative to lethal force, an alternative to actual firearms with real bullets . I don’t expect the taser casualty rate to be zero, but it still seems that voltage is a lot safer than rounds.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  90. Through 2017 approximately 1000 people died after a taser was used on them.

    Less deadly than the Covid.

    Of nearly 1,000 persons subjected to Taser use concluded that 99.7% of the subjects had suffered no injuries, or minor ones such as scrapes and bruises, while three persons suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission, and two died.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  91. COVID-19: Infections peak again for Tulsa County, Oklahoma with more than 200 new cases reported

    State health officials on Friday reported 222 new cases of COVID-19, marking a new peak in daily increases for both the state and Tulsa County.

    The triple-digit spike brought the total confirmed number of infections to 7,848 since early March. The daily report from the Oklahoma State Department of Health provided no information that might explain the increase.
    …..
    Tulsa Health Department investigations indicate that the latest outbreak is linked to indoor gatherings where large groups of people congregate for prolonged periods. However, the investigation continues.
    ………
    Tulsa Health Department Director Bruce Dart, in a prepared statement, expressed concerns about large, prolonged indoor gatherings.

    “It is imperative that anyone who chooses to host or attend a gathering take the steps to stay safe. If you are sick or think you have been exposed to someone with COVID-19, stay home,” said Dart. “The bottom line is that the more people an infected individual interacts with and the longer that interaction lasts, the greater the risk for spreading COVID-19 becomes.”
    ……..
    Concerns remain for greater transmission of the deadly disease in light of President Donald Trump’s plan to rally support for his 2020 election campaign, which is slated for June 19 in Tulsa at the BOK Center.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  92. That sounds right, mg.

    nk (1d9030)

  93. US Secret Service says it used pepper spray in June 1 event near Lafayette Square
    ……
    In a statement, the Secret Service noted it previously “released information stating the agency had concluded that no agency personnel used tear gas or capsicum spray during efforts to secure the area near Lafayette Park on Monday, June 1, based on the records and information available at the time. Since that time, the agency has learned that one agency employee used capsicum spray (i.e., pepper spray) during that effort.”
    ……..
    Earlier this month, a spokesperson for the US Park Police said that the department had made a mistake by earlier denying the use of tear gas to clear peaceful protesters from a public park outside the White House on June 1.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  94. How tall should America’s statues of Pol Pot be, to fully educate Americans as to the magnitude of his crimes? The bigger the better, so as to better teach the lesson?

    Asinine.

    Newsflash: there are less laudatory means of education than monuments.

    Leviticus (26ac19)

  95. In my experience, mg, I know dozens of lawyers and they’re all good guys and gals, and they’re good at what they do, exceptional even. Some of them are real a$$holes, but there may be occasions in your life when you want that a$$hole in your corner, advocating on your behalf. The ones I play basketball with are the most competitive sons-a-bitches you’ll ever know.
    I only know one, maybe two, attorneys who are actual sleazebags, but everyone else in my community knows they’re sleazebags, too, so there’s that.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  96. Spate of new research supports wearing masks to control coronavirus spread
    ……..
    Several new studies published this month support wearing masks to curb the transmission of the novel coronavirus. The broadest, a review funded by the World Health Organization and published in the journal Lancet, concluded that data from 172 observational studies indicate wearing face masks reduces the risk of coronavirus infection.

    “Our findings suggest, in multiple ways, that the use of masks is highly protective in health-care and community settings,” said the author of the review, Holger Schünemann, an epidemiologist and physician at McMaster University in Ontario.

    But that conclusion came with an important caveat: “We have low certainty in that,” Schünemann said, meaning the authors cannot be strongly confident in the result. …….
    …..
    Face masks appear to be most effective when supplemented with hand-washing and physical distancing, Schünemann and his colleagues said.
    …..
    “Anecdotally, it appears that face-mask use is an important control against multiple modes of SARS-CoV-2 transmission,” including droplets and aerosols, said Jeffrey Shaman, an epidemiologist at Columbia University.

    He highlighted Asian countries such as South Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam that had high rates of face-mask use early in the pandemic. They “have had better success squashing the virus and keeping their economies going,” Shaman said.
    ……
    “Most of anti-maskers seem to be politicians who do not have scientific experience,” said Noymer, the University of California professor.
    ………

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  97. 96. The problem with tasers is that cops are trained to shoot center-mass. Normally that’s all right for bullets; the reason for the development of tasers is to combine stopping power with something far less likely to be lethal. Unfortunately the closer you get to the human heart with taser leads, the more likely you are to seize up the heart and send it into lethal fibrillation, with the effects being not unlike what happens when a functioning heart gets shocked by defibrillation paddles.

    Gryph (08c844)

  98. Also worth noting, the taser was sold to police departments as a non-lethal alternative. Some deaths != non-lethal.

    Gryph (08c844)

  99. I’ve been wearing a surgical mask because it’s (a lot!) more comfortable than an N95, but last week a lady also wearing a surgical mask coughed near me at the grocery store. So, I’m really wondering if comfort is everything, and I do have N95s just sitting there.

    nk (1d9030)

  100. Newsflash: there are less laudatory means of education than monuments.

    So, you favor pulling down the Washington monument? Do you think that would work for Biden?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  101. 105. There’s comfort, and then there’s breathing in your own CO2 until you end up with pleurisy. I’ll take my chances mask-free, thanks.

    Gryph (08c844)

  102. Also, the Declaration of Independence was written by a slave-owner. We should expunge it from our memory, and anyone who tries to use its words is an obvious racist and criminal.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  103. 108. That’s funny. Abe Lincoln cited the Declaration of Independence as one of his reasons for believing that slavery was immoral, didn’t he?

    Gryph (08c844)

  104. nk, I’m in the same boat. The surgical mask catches my exhale, not so much the inhale. What price comfort?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  105. Also worth noting, the taser was sold to police departments as a non-lethal alternative. Some deaths != non-lethal.

    Yes, that’s their CYA petard. They don’t want to claim that the Taser is lethal.

    But they don’t need to! The cop had no obligation to let himself be immobilized “non-lethally” by the Taser giving the perp the opportunity to take his gun or crush his windpipe with his knee.

    nk (1d9030)

  106. 111. I know, I know. Actually, I don’t think this latest incident was a bad shoot (as far as I can tell). I am a firm believer in the possibility of “awful but lawful” occurrences, and I think that officer had every reason to fear for his life apart from the outside chance of taser lethality.

    That said, there are ways to lessen the chance of lethal taser shocks, but police need better training before they deploy them if they’re serious about keeping citizens safe and lessening the likelihood of criminals dying in custody.

    Gryph (08c844)

  107. “ So, you favor pulling down the Washington monument? Do you think that would work for Biden?”

    – Kevin M

    Nice false equivalence. Washington handed over the presidency when he could have been a king. Tell me: what did Robert E. Lee do that was so laudatory?

    Anyway, you prove my point: the people that want these Confederate statues to remain don’t see them as educational devices anymore than they see the Washington monument as an educational device. They see them as a means of honoring their heroes.

    Leviticus (26ac19)

  108. My elementary education was just one long series of field trips to monuments: the Eli Whitney Monument, the Typhoid Mary Monument, the Eugene V. Debs Monument, the Richard Nixon Monument. Thank God for monuments – otherwise I never would have been able to learn about American history.

    Leviticus (26ac19)

  109. About the Lost Cause being dead

    Part 2. Dammit Cletus.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  110. The ramp that I descended after my West Point Commencement speech was very long & steep, had no handrail and, most importantly, was very slippery. The last thing I was going to do is “fall” for the Fake News to have fun with. Final ten feet I ran down to level ground. Momentum!

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1272000237809414149

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  111. So we have Leviticus on record as being against taking down the monuments honoring those infamous slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.

    kaf (6cbb44)

  112. Not all dementia is Alzheimer’s or atherosclerosis. A lot is Parkinsonian. Medications to control trembling can cause twitches. A seeming inability to stay still. We’ll see.

    nk (1d9030)

  113. I’m also willing to blame it on his lifts.

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  114. The NY Times says it was wrong to publish Senator Cotton’s researched article, but has no issue or push back from this anti-civilization tripe:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html

    All the garbage that’s fit to print.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  115. Tell me: what did Robert E. Lee do that was so laudatory?

    Lose.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  116. “ So we have Leviticus on record as being against taking down the monuments honoring those infamous slave owners George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.”

    – kaf

    By all means, take them down. Hero-worship is irrational and counterproductive, and books teach history better than monuments.

    Leviticus (26ac19)

  117. It figures his bone spurs would flare up (again) if he got anywhere close to a military training camp.

    Dave (1bb933)

  118. https://twitter.com/AlexWhittler/status/1271979924732207105

    Classy. The destroyers of civilization set fire to the Wendy’s in Atlanta.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  119. I watched the press conference and the attorneys for this Atlanta shooting are saying it makes sense to resist arrest and run from cops (after grabbing one of their weapons). That’s going to get more people killed.

    frosty (f27e97)

  120. @127. Selznick did it better.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  121. Hero-worship is irrational and counterproductive, and books teach history better than monuments.

    “Hero worship” is one thing, but I wouldn’t be so quick to denigrate the power of art to educate and inspire.

    With that said, the Washington Monument is possibly the most hideous piece of architecture ever conceived by man. I’d love to see it replaced with something attractive that had some recognizable connection to the father of our country.

    There are any number of viable possibilities, but I think this concept posted by JVW a while back has real potential.

    Dave (1bb933)

  122. Let’s pray that they are right:

    This sounds like sucha outlandish idea that they wouldn;t say it if they weren;t right.

    Caveats:

    1) It’s not just the polio vaccine. It could also be BCG. They’re talking about a general boost to the immune system.

    2) They are looking for something the bodyhas not been exposed to. They;re suggesting the polio vaccine because it’s not given out any more, and is a live virus, thus will boost the immune system.

    3) The effect is probably mild.

    4) It can also be harmful to boost the immune system in certain cases.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  123. https://abcnews.go.com/US/mississippi-law-enforcement-searching-escaped-inmate-accused-killing/story?id=71235881

    Another day, another officer of the law murdered. County Deputy Sheriff James Blair (77) murdered.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  124. 128. frosty (f27e97) — 6/13/2020 @ 9:52 pm

    That’s going to get more people killed.

    But some people in criminal lines of business will get richer, as will people in ancillary legal occupations, like criminal defense lawyer.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  125. Another problem is the Atlanta mayor just had two cops fired over an incident involving a taser. I believe part of the reasoning was based on the taser being a deadly weapon, which raised some questions at the time.

    frosty (f27e97)

  126. I watched the press conference and the attorneys for this Atlanta shooting are saying it makes sense to resist arrest and run from cops (after grabbing one of their weapons). That’s going to get more people killed.

    Lie

    Another problem is the Atlanta mayor just had two cops fired over an incident involving a taser. I believe part of the reasoning was based on the taser being a deadly weapon, which raised some questions at the time.

    Lie

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  127. @136 I watched the press conference and one attorney, Chris something, said something to the effect that he’d question why he was getting hassled too and then tried to pawn it off as everyone has a right to know why there getting arrested. The other one, when asked why he ran, said something about how’s it understandable in these times. It was the immediate impression I got while I was watching it. I thought I went pretty light on the attorneys since they all but called for more riots and made a lot of claims that they really can’t backup this early in the investigation.

    As for the second one: The AJC

    LoRusso also criticized Howard for building a case around the officers’ use of a Taser.

    “It would turn American law enforcement on its ear if we’re going to label a Taser as a deadly weapon,” he said.

    Do you have anything to backup either claim that I’ve lied?

    frosty (f27e97)

  128. 19. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/13/2020 @ 2:51 pm

    Since her action is exactly what some would have wanted those ROOKIES to do in the Floyd case, and she got fired for it, it is pretty clear the rookies were in a no-win position.

    If what they should have done is physically intervene against Derek Chauvin, which could also have endangered their lives since two of them were on probation and ery juior to Chauvin..

    But they could have stopped paticipating in the restraint of George Floyd, and, of more value, called the captain. Find someone to overrule Chauvin.

    But for that they would have to come to certain conslusions as to what was going on.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  129. LoRusso also criticized Howard for building a case around the officers’ use of a Taser.

    Do you notice that neither of those people are the mayor and the mayor actually said.

    “As we watch the video today, it became abundantly clear immediately with the young woman that this force was excessive,” Bottoms said. “It also became abundantly clear that the officer who tased the young man needed to be terminated as well.”

    Also you claim…

    I believe part of the reasoning was based on the taser being a deadly weapon, which raised some questions at the time.

    Which is not any part of any claim, accept for you and their union lawyer.

    Also also, you claim…

    I watched the press conference and the attorneys for this Atlanta shooting are saying it makes sense to resist arrest and run from cops (after grabbing one of their weapons). That’s going to get more people killed

    .
    Which your further explanation refutes.

    I watched the press conference and one attorney, Chris something, said something to the effect that he’d question why he was getting hassled too and then tried to pawn it off as everyone has a right to know why there getting arrested. The other one, when asked why he ran, said something about how’s it understandable in these times. It was the immediate impression I got while I was watching it. I thought I went pretty light on the attorneys since they all but called for more riots and made a lot of claims that they really can’t backup this early in the investigation

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  130. @133 Is your point that the police have a dangerous job and so they should just be able to willy-nilly kill people without anyone saying anything?

    Nic (896fdf)

  131. Another problem is the Atlanta mayor just had two cops fired over an incident involving a taser.

    They weren’t fired, and the incident involved a dark-skinned guy who was shot dead by one of those cops, using a real gun and real bullets.

    Paul Montagu (b7e973)

  132. In case you were tempted to think people were being too rough on the Ramp-descender-in-Chief, there is always, as they say, a tweet: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EacieOfXsAAv0Zs?format=jpg&name=medium

    JRH (52aed3)

  133. @142 I think it’s a magician’s trick. He’s trying to distract us with one thing in the hopes we don’t notice that he can’t raise a glass of water to his lips. Being tentative walking down a ramp is relatively normal for a not very fit older gentleman. Being unable to lift a glass isn’t.

    Nic (896fdf)

  134. Exactly who at FOX thought it would be a good idea to run altered photos on a news story? And are they still employed?

    https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/fox-news-runs-digitally-altered-images-in-coverage-of-seattles-protests-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone

    Nic (896fdf)

  135. Peru has a high rate f infectin from the coronavirus.

    A lot of the advice they give to people in inapplicable.

    1) People can’t just not work – no money.

    2) Only one third of Peruvians have running water – so how could they repeated;y wash? (not that that is actually of much benefit, but that’s another story)

    3) Half don;t even have refrigerators. So must buy food often.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/world/americas/coronavirus-peru-inequality-corruption.html

    “They asked us to stay at home, but a lot of people have no savings so that was impossible. They asked us to wash our hands, but one in three poor households has access to running water,” said Hugo Ñopo, who works for a Peruvian research group, Grade. Only half of Peruvian homes have refrigerators, he said, forcing many families to return daily to crowded markets, a major source of contagion.

    https://www.ft.com/content/53c858cb-1c8b-4a14-bcb3-8948a5794db2

    There are many reasons for Peru’s brutal coronavirus numbers, not least its informal labour force. While this is an issue across Latin America and the whole developing world, it is particularly acute in Peru. The IMF says 70 per cent of employment is informal, against a Latin American average of 54 per cent. Many Peruvians say they have to break lockdown to work and survive.

    Lima, home to 9m people — nearly a third of the population — is also a magnet for migrants from the poor hinterland. Their work having dried up with the lockdown, thousands left the capital for their towns and villages in the Andes and the Amazon basin, in some cases taking coronavirus with them. The scale of the exodus seems to have caught the government off guard. Police rounded up migrants leaving the capital and forced them back into quarantine.

    Peru’s coronavirus numbers are high because people have not followed strict lockdown rules, said Patricia García, a former health minister and professor at the Cayetano Heredia university in Lima, but also because the country is being more transparent than others about testing.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  136. media 2020, Nic.
    I don’t understand people paying money for cable cabal.

    mg (8cbc69)

  137. Is the skateboard the weapon of choice for antifa?

    mg (8cbc69)

  138. @143. He walked like he’s never seen an inclined plane before. He talks like he’s just woken up from a 1000 year nap, and yes, lifts a glass only with considerable effort. He’s definitely not ok. I know 74 year olds that can run up and down a ramp like it was nothing.

    JRH (52aed3)

  139. As per monuments, I think the local population should vote and decide what they want to do with their public squares and how they want to remember and memorialize the past. Still, in this day and age, everyone must have an opinion so let me tease out some thoughts. First, we don’t need monuments to Hitler, Goering, or Osama Bin Laden to remember their horrific deeds or their effects on us….and most would find it remarkably in bad taste to erect a monument to OBL so future generations remember the War on Terror. Still, we don’t tear down the Colosseum because it hurts the sensibilities of Christians or represents a barbaric time. We don’t tear down the Texas School Book Depository because it is the scene of a horrific act.

    But there is a difference, right? Places vs people. No monuments or streets are named after Lee Harvey Oswald. But people are complex….upthread someone wondered about the importance of Robert E. Lee…..which tends to call out that maybe we don’t remember our history and quickly over-simplify people….like some seem to do with slave-holding Presidents like Washington and Jefferson. My understanding was Lee was a reluctanct participant in the confederacy…opposed its founding….and afterwards worked toward reconciliation. And despite Gettysburg, he is acknowledged to be a great military “tacticioner” who scored remarkable victories over much bigger forces. Still, I think he would have likely opposed these monuments to himself on the grounds that the country needed to move on.

    But we have monuments to dead German soldiers in Belgium and other European countries…..though these tend to be discrete…not prominently featured in the middle of town…displayed more at cemeteries….and not viewed as celebrating noble aspects of nazi efficiency or attention to detail. Does some of this feel like virtue signaling…..and a distraction from more pressing problems within the black communities….especially the inner cities? Yeah probably, but let the local populations vote. No one is erasing Lee from history…any more than Hitler was erased from history….but do we need him in the center of town? Probably not.

    AJ_Liberty (0f85ca)

  140. Paul Montagu (b7e973) — 6/13/2020 @ 11:04 pm

    They weren’t fired, and the incident involved a dark-skinned guy who was shot dead by one of those cops, using a real gun and real bullets

    Before you pile on you should double check whether you know what you are talking about. Because the two officers I’m talking about got fired and no real bullets were not involved.

    frosty (f27e97)

  141. Guy eating dry Raman answers question from Chris Cuomo:

    https://twitter.com/KarluskaP/status/1271959893562589185?s=20
    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  142. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/13/2020 @ 10:37 pm

    You are twisting pretty hard. I believe part of the reasoning was that the taser was deadly force and that will cause an issue here. I noticed you highlighted the quote that applied to the woman. How did it [become] abundantly clear that the officer who tased the man need to be fired? We can debate non-lethal, excessive, and deadly but having that debate is already part of this issue.

    And you disagree with how I interpreted comments made at the press conference.

    Nothing you’ve put up supports your claim that I lied. I like the little slight of hand tricks though. The police unions have been framed as part of the problem generally so in this case they’re lying and anyone who repeats what they say is also lying. It’s a cheap trick but it’s more subtle than usual. Is rude bully the only mode you’ve got?

    frosty (f27e97)

  143. After all the statues are toppled, the military bases renamed, the Minneapolis cops are all sent to prison, we all kneel before the flag, the BLM creed is taught in every school, law enforcement rules and procedures established over decades are dismantled, and Trump is gone — even after all that, when African Americans still are disproportionately represented in arrests, convictions and deaths in police custody, then what?

    The question assumes that’s the problem we’re trying to solve.

    Probably a bad assumption.

    beer ‘n pretzels (7c200e)

  144. I see the police escalating the situation in Atlanta right now at the Wendy’s. Sometimes it’s just better to back off and not give the crowd/mob something to fight against. They didn’t appear to be doing anything but blocking traffic.

    They continued later to peaceably burn down the Wendy’s. But I guess that was because the cops escalated by trying to prevent it.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  145. I predict a national police strike.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  146. I found this article by Anne Applebaum interesting and informative.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/trumps-collaborators/612250/

    It’s a lengthy article, because Applebaum goes in depth to discuss why certain figures, men and women, abandoned their principles and became collaborators to authoritarian regimes, particularly in Russia, Poland and France. She compares and contrasts collaborators, asking why they took different paths. Most continued to collaborate, out of economic and educational necessity, fear of retribution and imprisonment, but some became dissidents. She then moves on to the current state of the Republican party. No, she is not comparing Trump to Hitler, Stalin or Pétain; she’s observing how the Republicans have become collaborators to a corrupt, immoral, inept, and incompetent president.

    Meanwhile, protests continue throughout the country and around the globe. Far right protestors damn near started a riot in London over the weekend. While in America, a Wendy’s was burned to the ground.

    Perhaps it has something to do with this.

    https://reason.com/2020/06/13/the-former-cop-who-killed-george-floyd-will-get-50k-annual-pension-even-if-convicted-of-murder/

    Did you know that Chauvin, who had eighteen complaints filed against him before he suffocated George Floyd, will receive a $50,000/year pension? If he lives to be 78 in protective custody, he’ll receive over $1,000,000. For killing a black man.

    There is something seriously wrong with this picture. That’s what these protests are all about. Qualified immunity? The parents of the victim have no recourse, and the officer in question gets to collect a million dollar pension? Even if he’s in jail for the rest of his life, he’s still getting paid a whole lot of money.

    That is not right. It’s just not.

    Also, at UT Austin, student athletes are calling for renaming buildings and removal of statues.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/big12/2020/06/12/texas-athletes-seek-sweeping-racial-changes-university/3178699001/

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  147. Exactly who at FOX thought it would be a good idea to run altered photos on a news story? And are they still employed?

    Truly stupid for any news organization. However, I detect a meme.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  148. That is not right. It’s just not.

    I would suggest that they change the law to the effect that “Any pension to a public employee who is convicted of a felony, is forfeit to the extent that the employee’s felonious actions result in a judgement against their employer.”

    I think that avoids ex post facto as there is not yet any judgement.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  149. beer ‘n pretzels (7c200e) — 6/14/2020 @ 8:07 am

    when African Americans still are disproportionately represented in arrests, convictions and deaths in police custody

    They won’t be disproportionately represented in those stats if you do all of the things you mentioned. Whether they’re still disproportionately represented in the underlying crime stats is the better question. Again, assuming everything you said comes true we’d also probably not be collecting those stats at all. But we’d at least have the warm comfort of knowing we solved the police violence issue.

    frosty (f27e97)

  150. https://threader.app/thread/1271219776606687233

    Should be read as it accurately describes what is going on in our so called institutions of higher learning. Also was posted anonymously because she knows it would cost her job if she was found out. Once again proving who has the power because you cannot criticize them without destruction of your life being the result.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  151. His soon to be ex-wife will get most of that pension, not him.

    All government pensions need to go the way of the dodo bird and be replaced with 403(b)’s. Not the taxpayers job to support anyone for the rest of their life.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  152. Re the Atlanta story, the threat from a stolen police weapon isn’t just to the police at the scene. The suspect can run away and no longer be a threat to those officers, but he has a weapon and can hurt any number of people. The police have a duty to try to stop him to protect the public.

    DRJ (15874d)

  153. Re the Atlanta story, the threat from a stolen police weapon isn’t just to the police at the scene. The suspect can run away and no longer be a threat to those officers, but he has a weapon and can hurt any number of people. The police have a duty to try to stop him to protect the public.

    A)An Axon Taser 7 is not a lethal weapon, 99.7% survival rate.
    B) A Taser 7 is a single shot weapon, and the weapon was fired. He didn’t break into the patrol car and steal a reload, and if he did A) is still true.
    C) The use of force requirements mean A) and B) doesn’t rise to the use of deadly force, see below.

    You can review the current Atlanta CEW policy here.

    Use of deadly force policy

    Use of Deadly Force
    (CALEA 6th ed. Standard 4.2.1)
    An employee may use deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon only when:

    1. He or she reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object,
    device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually
    does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect
    poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others; or
    2. When there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving
    the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm (O.C.G.A. Section 17-4-20) and
    the employee reasonably believes that the suspect’s escape would create a continuing
    danger of serious physical harm to any person.

    All SOPs

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)


  154. New York Times Arts
    @nytimesarts
    ·
    Films will have to meet an inclusion standard to be eligible for the Oscars, the academy announces. The details are still being worked out. https://nyti.ms/3hfDb8i
    __ _

    Pinky Carruthers
    @richardcranium6
    ·
    So much for judging movies by the content of their characters.

    _

    harkin (9c4571)

  155. Stories that make total sense in these times.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/12/lady-a-black-seattle-singer-blasts-pure-privilege-/
    “It’s an opportunity for them to pretend they’re not racist or pretend this means something to them,” she adds. “If it did, they would’ve done some research. And I’m not happy about that. You found me on Spotify easily — why couldn’t they?”

    https://thehill.com/policy/international/502627-us-embassy-in-seoul-dons-black-lives-matter-banner-in-support-of-the
    Thank heavens all the black people in South Korea can rest easy now. But, if it’s really a problem there, maybe the Koreans should topple their Confederate monuments.

    beer ‘n pretzels (3d3894)

  156. “ No, she is not comparing Trump to Hitler, Stalin or Pétain; she’s observing how the Republicans have become collaborators to a corrupt, immoral, inept, and incompetent president.”
    __ _

    Speaking of corruption:

    All donations to the official BLM website are immediately redirected to ActBlue Charities, an organization primarily concerned with bankrolling election campaigns for Democrat candidates. Donating to BLM today is to indirectly donate to Joe Biden’s 2020 campaign.

    This is grotesque given the fact that the American cities with the worst rates of black-on-black violence and police-on-black violence are overwhelmingly Democrat-run. Minneapolis itself has been entirely in the hands of Democrats for over five decades; the ‘systemic racism’ there was built by successive Democrat administrations.

    The patronizing and condescending attitudes of Democrat leaders towards the black community, exemplified by nearly every Biden statement on the black race, all but guarantee a perpetual state of misery, resentment, poverty, and the attendant grievance politics which are simultaneously annihilating American political discourse and black lives.

    And yet, donating to BLM is bankrolling the election campaigns of men like Mayor Frey, who saw their cities devolve into violence. This is a grotesque capture of a good-faith movement for necessary police reform, and of our department, by a political party. Even worse, there are virtually no avenues for dissent in academic circles. I refuse to serve the Party, and so should you.

    The total alliance of major corporations involved in human exploitation with BLM should be a warning flag to us, and yet this damning evidence goes unnoticed, purposefully ignored, or perversely celebrated. We are the useful idiots of the wealthiest classes, carrying water for Jeff Bezos and other actual, real, modern-day slavers.

    Starbucks, an organisation using literal black slaves in its coffee plantation suppliers, is in favor of BLM. Sony, an organisation using cobalt mined by yet more literal black slaves, many of whom are children, is in favor of BLM. And so, apparently, are we. The absence of counter-narrative enables this obscenity. Fiat lux, indeed.

    https://uncoverdc.com/2020/06/12/uc-berkeley-history-professors-open-letter-against-blm-police-brutality-and-cultural-orthodoxy/
    __

    harkin (9c4571)

  157. A low risk weapon is still a weapon, especially in untrained hands. He could use it on someone vulnerable, demonstrate it to children, sell it, etc. It could definitely injure someone because tasers can kill.

    DRJ (15874d)

  158. If the taser had been fired and had no second or third shot capacity, and if the officer knew that for certain, then I agree it would have been better to let him go. But that is a lot to ask an officer to know for certain in seconds.

    DRJ (15874d)

  159. On the “plus” side, fewer police officers will worry about protecting the public from now on.

    DRJ (15874d)

  160. Because the two officers I’m talking about got fired and no real bullets were not involved.

    I stand corrected, but the issue there was about the use of excessive force.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  161. 163. Whether policy was followed or not is an entirely legitimate question that needs to be asked. It still does not address the reasonable-man standard for whether a crime was committed.

    Gryph (08c844)

  162. What is the reasonable man standard for whether a crime was committed? Typically the standard is whether a specific criminal law applies.

    DRJ (15874d)

  163. Also, Colonel Klink, IMO the officer should have the chance to explain his actions, especially if he saw the suspect point a weapon at the officers.

    DRJ (15874d)

  164. Tasers can be dangerous weapons and are responsible for over 1,000 deaths in CY 2019. The other point is that, a man running around with a taser, after assaulting two police officers, can be considered a dangerous suspect. Third, the Man was shot advancing on the police officer with the intent to do bodily harm. I’m not too sure that you can let someone come up to a policeman, ignore warnings, and taser him. And if let him, then to what? He grabs the tasered cops gun? Finally, what is Atlanta PD policy on using deadly force. I’m assuming the Policeman violated the policy, but their firing could just be placating the mob and playing politics.

    Of course, the news reports are absurdly sketchy, and as we learned from Ferguson, the so-called “eye witnesses” are unreliable. So, we’ll to wait for more information from our hysterical media.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  165. The Media is going to keep the racial pot boiling every chance they get, because they think it hurts Trump and the Republicans. So, given that 10 Unarmed black man are usually killed by the Police every year, they’ll be giving us Wall-to-Wall coverage of this death, and any additional ones before November.

    Look for Pelosi and Schumer to cry on camera over the poor black man who just wanted to get a Hamburger and then was “murdered” by the Police for the crime of being black in Trump’s Amerika.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  166. #156 I’ve found everything in the Atlantic Magazine is propaganda and must be verified by another source before it can be believed. Frankly, I wouldn’t believe anything Applebaum wrote about anything unless I could check it out with another historical source. She is unreliable, and often not objective.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  167. #68. Yep, looks like the suspect turned and fired, and the policeman – in the heat of the moment, may have thought it was a gun and reflexively fired back. Sad, but we can’t expect the police to never make mistakes when they believe the suspect is dangerous.

    It seems to be a common theme if theme in these cases that the suspect is very large and strong, resists arrests, and then the police have to use excessive force or deadly force to stop them. Eric Gardner, Mr. Brown of Ferguson, George Floyd, and this guy, would be alive today if the police had some real tough strong men on the job. The cops in NYC looked like Midgets, and Chauvin doesn’t seem to be that strong either. In this case, two men couldn’t wrestle the suspect and put cuffs on him.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  168. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/14/2020 @ 9:32 am

    Small problem with your analysis:

    An Axon Taser 7 is not a lethal weapon

    and

    any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury and when he or she reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others

    Letal weapon isn’t the standard.

    B) A Taser 7 is a single shot weapon, and the weapon was fired.

    This is not true. The Axon Taser 7 allows for a second cartridge to be loaded and fired. It actually looks like the standard configuration is for two cartridges. Was a second cartridge loaded and fired? I don’t know but it’s clear that Brooks intended, and attempted, to use the weapon to harm the officers.

    I also keep seeing comments about why they just didn’t let him run away. Where was he going to go after all? Well, there is a line of people in their cars at the drive-thru, Brooks now has a taser, and desperately wants to get away and has shown monumentally poor or impaired judgment. Did the cops need to wait until he’d committed a new round of felonies before re-engaging?

    frosty (f27e97)

  169. Also, Colonel Klink, IMO the officer should have the chance to explain his actions, especially if he saw the suspect point a weapon at the officers.

    He can explain his mindset and thinking. In Atlanta, police are “at will” employees, their union contract allows for recourse for employment decisions. In fact, he already has union representation, the same representation as the two cops fired last week, and is already claiming in this case that tasers are deadly; arguing the opposite of the case from last week. It’s what he’s paid for, so it’s not surprising.

    Taser’s are 0.3% fatal, and 0.2% of those are from injuries related to falling, head trauma mostly, see research link previously.

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  170. Tasers can be dangerous weapons and are responsible for over 1,000 deaths in CY 2019.

    That is a complete lie. Tasers were responsible for 1,000 deaths through 2017, not in 2019. Put up or quit lying.

    While their intended purpose is to avoid the use of lethal force (firearms), 180 deaths were reported to have been associated with Tasers in the US by 2006. By 2019 that figure had increased to over 1,000[31][32] It is unclear in each case whether the Taser was the cause of death, but several legislators in the U.S. have filed bills clamping down on them and requesting more studies on their effects.[33] A study led by William Bozeman of Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center of nearly 1,000 persons subjected to Taser use concluded that 99.7% of the subjects had suffered no injuries, or minor ones such as scrapes and bruises, while three persons suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission, and two died. Bozeman’s study found that “…paired anterior probe impacts potentially capable of producing a transcardiac discharge vector.” occurred in 21.9% of all deployments.[34] Multiple studies have since concluded that CEW use directly impacts cardiac and brain function, and can lead to cardiac arrest as well as dangerously elevated heart rate.[35][36]

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  171. This is not true. The Axon Taser 7 allows for a second cartridge to be loaded and fired. It actually looks like the standard configuration is for two cartridges. Was a second cartridge loaded and fired? I don’t know but it’s clear that Brooks intended, and attempted, to use the weapon to harm the officers.

    You are correct, the first shot was fired by the officer, the second shot was fired and missed by Brooks, and even in the case of it having 100 rounds, it’s still not lethal, there was still a second cop with a gun, and didn’t rise to the level of lethal force.

    I don’t get the defenses, it was an improper shoot based on Atlanta’s rules. If you’re going to argue that a taser is lethal, rubber bullets and pepperballs are much more likely to be lethal, so all peaceful protesters getting shot at, by cops with them in stand your ground states have a right to shoot back with 357 AR47 shotgun, right?

    Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827)

  172. so all peaceful protesters getting shot at, by cops with them in stand your ground states have a right to shoot back with 357 AR47 shotgun, right?

    Mr. Strawman armed with a taser and Mr. Whatabout armed with pepperballs, by themselves aren’t dangerous.

    But together, they’re lethal.

    beer ‘n pretzels (e5f418)

  173. Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/14/2020 @ 10:47 am

    I’m not making an argument either way that it’s lethal. I’m pointing out that the standard you quoted is serious bodily injury. Before that my point was it’s going to be an issue having one standard in a case and a different one in a subsequent case.

    Stand your ground laws typically state that an individual has no duty to retreat from any place where they have a lawful right to be. Presumably, if the police are dispersing a crowd with rubber bullets or pepper balls you don’t have a situation where that applies.

    frosty (5a5a20)

  174. 172. The law specifies what a crime is. When we speak of determining guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt,” courts have held that it constitutes whether a “reasonable man [person]” would doubt that a crime had been committed.

    I don’t want to litigate police department policy in Atlanta or whether the officer committed a crime here. All the same, I do believe that a reasonable person might have believed that their life was in danger in this particular situation. Not every shooting by a cop is a bad shoot, and I do believe in the possibility of “awful but lawful.”

    Gryph (08c844)

  175. @28.

    Killed more citizens of the United States of America:

    [ ] Soviet Russia

    [ ] Nazi Germany

    [ ] Imperial Japan

    [ ] Axis Italy

    [ ] North Korea

    [ ] North Vietnam

    [ ] Assorted Terrorists

    [ ] Chinese Pandemic

    [ X ] Confederate States of America

    Again, no honors for traitors.

    End of story.

    “I remember every detail; the Germans wore gray, you wore blue.” – Rick Blaine [Humphrey Bogart] ‘Casablanca’ 1942

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  176. DRJ, the guy blew a .108 and there were three officers (another was nearby) who were there to chase him down. A guy who was legally drunk won’t go that far or that fast.
    Another thing, that parking lot wasn’t empty. Brooks ran right by a guy in a car who was videotaping, and he had kids in the back. Not an ideal place to use lethal force.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  177. The 1,000 casualty figure for tasers is cumulative since 2000, so the average is around 50 deaths per year out of thousands of taserings.
    From the wikipedia page: “A study led by William Bozeman of Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center of nearly 1,000 persons subjected to Taser use concluded that 99.7% of the subjects had suffered no injuries, or minor ones such as scrapes and bruises, while three persons suffered injuries severe enough to need hospital admission, and two died.”
    The State of Georgia probably has a definition for “serious bodily injury”, but “scrapes and bruises” in over 99% doesn’t meet that threshold, IMO.

    Paul Montagu (91c593)

  178. 187. I’m pretty sure that proper training on how to use tasers would push that number even lower, but I’m usually not among the “if it saves just one life” crowd. I’ve been tased before (as part of a demonstration), and the feeling was enough to make me want to avoid running afoul of law enforcement ever again.

    Gryph (08c844)

  179. Too many recent ex-military on these police forces and that reflexive, drill-sergeanted training kicks in. 35 years of a hollowed out middle class has consequences. Plants closed, jobs scares; they needed a gig so they joined up, went to a war or two w/real urban kill zones and when mustered out, simply transferred an acquired skill set into to being coppers.

    Reaganomics.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  180. 189. Do you think this issue started in the 1980s under Reaganomics? I think that the civilian brass in charge of the military during Vietnam had far more to do with it, and you can thank primarily Kennedy, LBJ, and Nixon for that.

    Gryph (08c844)

  181. I note that a few people take absolute and strident positions on this, and they also happen to take absolute and strident positions on Trump, and those sets correlate 100%.

    This is the kind of correlation that has people believing that the whole BLM matter is just political theater.

    Then there are folks here who don’t fight from an ideological foxhole; those are the folks I enjoy reading because I don’t KNOW ahead of time what they are going to say.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  182. When everything is Reaganomics, nothing is.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  183. @190. =yawn= It certainly was seeded by Ronnie Appleseed and the Kudlow minions. The 1960’s USA economy was ‘booming’- hot and cold wars, do that; Bell Aircraft ring a bell: Chopper, chopper. America was the economic top dog worldwide then, as other nations played catch-up too. That began to wane post-Vietnam; Reagan simply suckered sustaining the pretense using Uncle Sam’s credit card.

    Today’s Hell Crop was seeded 35 years ago.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  184. 192.When everything is Reaganomics, nothing is.

    Yes, it was nothing but smoke and mirrors– all charged to Uncle Sam’s AmEx card.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  185. 193. I’m pretty sure it goes back farther than that. But your mileage may vary, I suppose. Part of the reason that Jack Webb did “Dragnet” in its various incarnations was to counter the negative image of the police and policing that was prevalent at the time. He was so beloved by the LAPD, he was the only honorary officer to have a badge number (714) retired.

    Gryph (08c844)

  186. Gunning down a belligerent drunk is so very Police Squad.

    “Just think, the next time I shoot someone, I could be arrested.” – Lt. Frank Drebin [Leslie Nielsen] ‘The Naked Gun’ 1988

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  187. Kevin M, are you going to address the argument that history can be taught without monuments, and that monuments are designed to honor rather than simply educate?

    Leviticus (26ac19)

  188. On the “plus” side, fewer police officers will worry about protecting the public from now on.

    I wonder to what degree police officers are going to adopt an unofficial policy whereby anyone who resists arrest will be let go. After all, what we are seeing is that it is far too dangerous for police to restrain or chase down an uncooperative suspect, so perhaps they will simply decide that it is best to let them escape.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  189. 197. Ah, the copped copper clapper caper. I remember it well.

    Gryph (08c844)

  190. 194. And Reagan was far from the first president to run up debt. The last time the national debt was actually paid down and the debt limit decreased was under Kennedy.

    Gryph (08c844)

  191. @199. Well, generally speaking, they’ve backed off some and modified pursuit procedures to be less overtly ‘aggressive’ in basic police car chases as is.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  192. 197. DC, do you know if Claude Cooper was ever caught? He was from Cleveland originally, but I heard he was last seen in Corpus Christi. 😉

    Gryph (08c844)

  193. @201. You’re tilting at windmills. Today’s crop was planted 35 years ago. More interesting will be what is seeded today– which will shape your society 30 or 35 years from now.

    I won’t give a damn–I’ll be dead. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. @203. LOL That is such a fine piece of television writing — and perfectly performed.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  195. Today’s crop was planted 35 years ago.

    True, very true, and a much broader truth than I think you intended.

    In 1985, the world’s population was 4.675 billion people. Today it’s 7.594 billion.

    In those years, changes in communication and transportation figuratively shrunk the world in proportions which I will leave up to metaphysicists to calculate.

    We need to evolve our rules of social interaction to catch up.

    It’s not our daddy’s Old Earth anymore.

    nk (1d9030)

  196. 205. Indeed. If you could crack up Johnny Carson and remain deadpan like Jack Webb with material like that, you’re a true master.

    Gryph (08c844)

  197. And speaking of orange dinosaurs, that was no trembling in the way Trump took a drink of water at West Point. It was weakness. He could not raise the glass all the way to his mouth with his right hand alone and needed to help it with his left hand. It can be from a lot of things, some less ungood than others.

    nk (1d9030)

  198. @206. Yep.

    Everything we’ve ever been, known and hope to be has lived in a shell of gases only about 3 to 5 miles deep. It gets pretty hard to breathe up Everest Way… and if some dude or dudette is willing to share some air with you– you don’t much care what color or nationality they are.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  199. Trump Boosts Georgia Candidate Who Peddles Antisemitic, QAnon Conspiracy Theories and Posed With a neo-Nazi
    President Donald Trump boosted a Georgia Republican candidate who refuses to disavow a white supremacist she posed with in a photograph and has seemingly promoted antisemitic conspiracy theories.

    “A big winner,” Trump said in a tweet Friday attached to a story on a pro-Trump website noting that Marjorie Taylor Greene in the heavily Republican 14th District had performed well in the primary despite having an ad banned by Facebook. “Congratulations!”
    ………
    Greene has posed in photos with Chester Doles, a Georgia man who once was a leader of the Ku Klux Klan and served a prison sentence for beating nearly to death a black man he saw in the company of a white woman. She has dismissed media queries about the photos as “silly” and “fake news.”

    Greene has peddled conspiracy theories about QAnon …..
    …….

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  200. I’m laughing over the cop-hating fakers. Y’see NOW tasers aren’t dangerous at all. BEFORE when police use them on “Peaceful Protesters” and “crooks of color” they were vicious deadly devices, and subject to numerous lawsuits. But NOW, well, tasers are perfectly safe TOYS and the Cops had ZERO reason be concerned. LOL!

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  201. Anyway, I watched the video and read Rod Dreher’s column on the Atlanta shooting. For once, Rod doesn’t go into liberal hysterics and IMMEDIATELY join the NYT/WaPo liberals and attack the police. And he brings up some interesting quotes from the Atlanta PD Handbook and GA state Law/SCOTUS rulings on the use of deadly force by Police. Basically if you think a fleeing suspect is violent and dangerous to others, a policeman can shoot him.

    In the case of the Atlanta Policeman, not only did the suspect steal and fire his taser at him, the suspect had not been searched. Its quite possible in the heat of the moment, the policeman thought the suspect had fired a GUN at him, not a taser. There’s a flash and a pop.

    Further, its not clear to me if the policeman doing the shooting was the one who had his taser stolen. If it was the OTHER policeman, its quite possible he thought the suspect had the policeman’s GUN not his taser. In any case, it appears that the shooting was completely justified and I’d be amazed if he’s charged. BTW, you’d think the police would have a hook or something that would prevent the TASER from being ripped off their belt so easily, but maybe that’s not possible.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  202. Roofing company workers forced onto ground, held at gunpoint by man who thought they were Antifa
    A Loveland (CO) man faces felony charges after allegedly concluding that two men going door-to-door in his neighborhood were members of the protest movement known as Antifa – and then ordering them to the ground and holding them at gunpoint…….

    The incident unfolded after the man called police, said there were two men wearing masks near his home, and announced he was armed and going to go confront them…….

    When officers arrived ……..they encountered Scott Gudmundsen …….dressed in fatigues and holding two men on the ground at gunpoint…….

    But the men weren’t troublemakers – they work for a local roofing company and were wearing blue polo shirts with the firm’s name on them, shorts, tennis shoes and white surgical-style masks…….
    ………
    There was no evidence that either of the men did anything wrong.
    ……….
    Gudmundsen was armed with two weapons, Shaffer told 9Wants to Know: A Glock pistol, and a second Glock pistol that had been converted into a longer weapon that looked like a carbine rifle.
    ……….
    ……… Gudmundsen told police in the call he was armed and wearing tactical gear……
    ……….
    According to Larimer County Jail records, Gudmundsen was booked at 6:14 p.m. Thursday on suspicion of two counts of felony menacing and two counts of false imprisonment.
    ……..

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  203. The Wendy’s is now being burned down, because that’s what “peaceful Protests” are all about.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  204. I forgot its the Rip Murdock spam fest. Give us a link to a CV-19 story Rip…because no one can google.

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  205. Of course, this IS an open thread. So, I don’t object to Links and extracts. I just don’t want them constantly

    rcocean (fcc23e)

  206. DRJ, the guy blew a .108 and there were three officers (another was nearby) who were there to chase him down. A guy who was legally drunk won’t go that far or that fast.
    Another thing, that parking lot wasn’t empty. Brooks ran right by a guy in a car who was videotaping, and he had kids in the back. Not an ideal place to use lethal force.

    Paul Montagu (91c593) — 6/14/2020 @ 11:45 am

    Maybe so. Or maybe it is not an ideal place to let an impaired man with a weapon run free. I would like for someone to hear the views from the officers who were there and review any video/audio.

    DRJ (15874d)

  207. Historical monuments can be problems as times change, Leviticus. Is it possible to see historical value in what was originally a monument to a person’s good deeds, even if how we view the person has changed? I see value if only because it reminds me that history can be fickle.

    DRJ (15874d)

  208. Kevin M, are you going to address the argument that history can be taught without monuments, and that monuments are designed to honor rather than simply educate?

    Not addressed to me, but I want to add my two cents: I don’t like the idea of monuments being knock down and destroyed. I think a valuable piece of history leaves with the visual piece honoring the individual/event. Rather than destroy them, I would like to see them become part of a museum collection focused on where we were, where are type exhibit. As ugly and awful as they may be (event/person), they provide a warning to be very careful about the decisions we make today. When they are raised on pedestals and given places of honor in gardens and public places, that doesn’t give people the full story, and only serves to enshrine people/events in a seemingly positive way. Enough of that. Preserve them as cautionary tales of history, and use them as a different kind of learning tool now.

    Dana (25e0dc)

  209. Trump supporters burn Michigan absentee ballot applications
    People burned letters informing them that they can vote by absentee ballot in future elections during a protest near Grand Rapids.

    The applications were burned Friday during an event called Operation Incinerator outside the DeltaPlex Arena in Walker. Many people had flags, shirts and signs showing support for President Donald Trump and Republicans.
    ……
    Trump in May criticized the move, although he wrongly stated that Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson was sending absentee ballots, not applications.
    ……
    That’ll teach them!

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  210. FWIW, I am fine if communities decide to take down historical monuments and keep them in a museum but it seems strange to take them down permanently or destroy them. Should we remove those time periods from history books, too?

    DRJ (15874d)

  211. I forgot its the Rip Murdock spam fest. Give us a link to a CV-19 story Rip…because no one can google
    Per rcocean’s request:

    “I’m concerned about our ability to protect anyone who attends a large, indoor event,” Bruce Dart, director of the Tulsa city and county health department, told the Tulsa World. “And I’m also concerned about our ability to ensure the president stays safe as well.”

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  212. JVW (ee64e4) — 6/14/2020 @ 1:52 pm

    I wonder to what degree police officers are going to adopt an unofficial policy whereby anyone who resists arrest will be let go.

    That seems to be the argument I keep hearing in this case. Why not just let him go? Especially if the police can’t be held responsible for any future harm. But then why even attempt an arrest?

    My favorite argument so far is a toss up between they should have called him an Uber and they should have driven him home. Both arguments are basically saying DUI shouldn’t be enforced.

    For those keeping track at home the attorneys lied at the press conference about whether a sobriety test had been administered.

    frosty (fa4423)

  213. https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-the-left-throws-trump-a-lifeline-20200614-fll2ypdpdnh4boq2dl3sh4uspq-story.html

    I really admire Kasparov. A former world chess champion, he fled Soviet Russia and became a human rights activist in New York. He didn’t descend into madness like Fischer did.

    Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1)

  214. @215-
    If you noticed, I didn’t post anything today until 3 pm. But if miss me that much, I can always post more. At least my posts have citations as opposed to what you post out of your……

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  215. Even in at will employment states, there can be applicable city/state laws and/or contracts that protect government and LEO employees from being terminated without investigation, proper notice, or a pre-disciplinary hearing.

    DRJ (15874d)

  216. Trump Campaign Manager Says 800,000 Registered For Tickets To Tulsa Rally–But The Venue Only Seats 19,200
    The Trump campaign has put out conflicting figures on how many tickets have been registered for their June 20 rally in Tulsa, with campaign manager Brad Parscale now claiming 800,000 people registered for tickets despite the venue seating just over 19,000.
    ……..
    On Sunday morning, Parscale claimed an enormous increase, tweeting, “just passed 800,000,” calling it the “biggest data haul and rally signup of all time by 10x.”

    Forbes has reached out to the Trump campaign for clarification on whether Parscale is referencing ticket requests and whether they plan to distribute more than 19,000 tickets.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  217. Also, if it hasn’t been mentioned in the other thread, Trump rescheduled the Juneteenth rally. Don’t worry though, I’m sure he’s still a racist.

    frosty (fa4423)

  218. Trump loses 2 pivotal allies in his anti-kneeling crusade: NASCAR and the NFL
    President Donald Trump has long had two cherished American institutions standing beside him as he railed against athletes taking a knee during the national anthem: NASCAR and the NFL.

    This week, they both started to walk away.
    …….. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said he had been wrong for not listening to protesting players earlier and encouraged “all to speak out and peacefully protest.” Meanwhile, NASCAR relaxed rules barring kneeling during the national anthem and banned Confederate flags from its events.
    …….

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  219. It can be from a lot of things, some less ungood than others.

    Maybe drinking bleach and disinfectant isn’t such a great idea after all?

    Dave (1bb933)

  220. Rip Murdock (a217ed) — 6/14/2020 @ 4:43 pm

    The real question is how will this play with fans. It’s possible both NFL and NASCAR fans are 100% behind the kneeling after seeing it in these protests.

    frosty (fa4423)

  221. If your team or favorite NASCAR driver is winning. I don’t think they will care. But really, people watch drivers turning left because they love the Confederate flag?

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  222. Our Windy City barrister wrote:

    I am not being sarcastic, and I am pleased by your formulation, “Republicans and conservatives”, two different groups.

    Two different groups, certainly, with considerable overlap..

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  223. Mr Murdock wrote:

    But really, people watch drivers turning left because they love the Confederate flag?

    Thank the Lord for Watkins Glen!

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  224. Mr M wrote:

    Also, the Declaration of Independence was written by a slave-owner. We should expunge it from our memory, and anyone who tries to use its words is an obvious racist and criminal.

    The Constitution was written, primarily, by a slave owner, as was the Bill of Rights. Therefore, we can disregard things like freedom of speech and of the press and peaceable assembly — at least for those assembling for the Wrong Reasons — and, most certainly, the right to keep and bear arms.

    The beating of a street preacher in Antifastan has shown that the mob have already discarded freedom of religion.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  225. Rip Murdock (a217ed) — 6/14/2020 @ 4:54 pm

    I say kneeling and you read confederate flag because of course you do. It’s so much easier to make snarky comments that way.

    frosty (f27e97)

  226. I lost interest in Nascar with Gordon retiring and the owners going leftist. This seals the deal.

    Nfl is dead to me with the way they Maoed Drew Brees.

    NJRob (0047fc)

  227. @235 You know that was a mostly peaceful beating.

    frosty (f27e97)

  228. In the Third Book of Moses it was written:

    Tell me: what did Robert E. Lee do that was so laudatory?

    He fought for his country. When Virginia seceded, he fought for his state and his country, the Confederate States of America.

    People fail to understand: in the mid nineteenth century, one’s home state was far more important than the federal government. The formula used was “the United States are,” rather than “the United States is.”

    While I’m glad we are one country and not two, I see the states as having had a reasonable right to secede. We certainly endorsed the secession of Texas from Mexico, yet we couldn’t allow Texas to secede from the United States? Though the United States never recognized Vermont’s secession from New York, but then allowed Vermont into the union as the fourteenth state. The United States recognized the secession of West Virginia from Virginia, and accepted West Virginia into the union.

    We recognized the independence of Bangladesh from Pakistan, Eritrea from Ethiopia, and Israel from British Mandatory Palestine. And, there’s the big one, we recognized our own declaration of independence from Great Britain.

    But secession from the United States? That was beyond the pale, sir, beyond the pale, and we killed a million people, when civilian losses are included, to prevent it.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  229. NJRob wrote:

    I lost interest in Nascar with Gordon retiring and the owners going leftist. This seals the deal.

    I was in an auto parts store one Sunday last century, in Hampton, Virginia, when a great cheer went up. “What happened?” I asked.

    “Gordon hit the wall,” was the response.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  230. DCSCA wrote:

    Tell me: what did Robert E. Lee do that was so laudatory?

    Lose.

    It is my pet, though certainly unprovable, theory that had the Confederate States been allowed to secede, or had won their independence on the battlefield, World War II in Europe would never have happened.

    The USA, with the CSA on its borders, and poorer due to the loss of those states, would not have entered World War I. Britain and France, practically beggared by the Great War, would have eventually come to terms with a similarly exhausted Germany, and Germany would have had a far more tolerable peace than the Treaty of Versailles. The Kaiser would have retained his throne, and Adolf Hitler would have died a frustrated street agitator.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  231. @239. ‘In the Third Book of Moses it was written: Tell me: what did Robert E. Lee do that was so laudatory?

    He fought for his country.’

    Except he didn’t.

    Lee took up arms and fought against his country: The United States of America.

    Lee killed United States citizens.

    And Lee lost.

    Lee was a traitor.

    End of story.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  232. Rather than destroy them, I would like to see them become part of a museum collection focused on where we were, where are type exhibit.

    Hungary took all of their Stalin-era statues to dead communists and moved them into one giant park on the outskirts of town where people who are interested, for whatever reason, can go visit them. I like that idea for Confederate monuments.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  233. Tell me: what did Robert E. Lee do that was so laudatory?

    To give Lee his due, after the War was over he accepted his role as the defeated party and worked to convince his fellow Southerners to reintegrate into the American society. I don’t know that there is any record of him expressing sympathy for anti-black sentiment or having any nostalgia for the “Lost Cause.” In the Ken Burns documentary on the Civil War, one of the historians (Shelby Foote perhaps) relates the story of Lee overhearing a young professor at Washington & Lee University (where the retired general served as president) make a disparaging remark about Ulysses S. Grant. Lee is said to have told the man, “Sir, if you ever insult General Grant in my presence again then be assured that either you or I will sever our affiliation with this college.”

    JVW (ee64e4)

  234. Lee (along with most of the other professional soldiers in the Civil War, north and south) did fight for his country (and with considerable distinction in Lee’s case) during the Mexican War.

    Benedict Arnold also fought heroically for the United States before later betraying his country and taking up arms against it. Yet oddly, there are no adoring statues of him in our cities or gauzy testaments to his “honor” in the history books.

    Dave (1bb933)

  235. @243.Roads need gravel for resurfacing; “I like that idea for Confederate monuments.”

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  236. “To give Lee his due, after the War was over he accepted his role as the defeated party and worked to convince his fellow Southerners to reintegrate into the American society. I don’t know that there is any record of him expressing sympathy for anti-black sentiment or having any nostalgia for the “Lost Cause.””

    Well, there’s this:

    Nor did Lee’s defeat lead to an embrace of racial egalitarianism. The war was not about slavery, Lee insisted later, but if it were about slavery, it was only out of Christian devotion that white southerners fought to keep black people enslaved. Lee told a New York Herald reporter, in the midst of arguing in favor of somehow removing black people from the South (“disposed of,” in his words), “that unless some humane course is adopted, based on wisdom and Christian principles, you do a gross wrong and injustice to the whole negro race in setting them free. And it is only this consideration that has led the wisdom, intelligence and Christianity of the South to support and defend the institution up to this time.”

    Privately, according to the correspondence collected by his own family, Lee counseled others to hire white labor instead of the freedmen, observing “that wherever you find the negro, everything is going down around him, and wherever you find a white man, you see everything around him improving.”

    In another letter, Lee wrote, “You will never prosper with blacks, and it is abhorrent to a reflecting mind to be supporting and cherishing those who are plotting and working for your injury, and all of whose sympathies and associations are antagonistic to yours. I wish them no evil in the world—on the contrary, will do them every good in my power, and know that they are misled by those to whom they have given their confidence; but our material, social, and political interests are naturally with the whites.”

    Publicly, Lee argued against the enfranchisement of black Americans, and raged against Republican efforts to enforce racial equality in the South. Lee told Congress that black people lacked the intellectual capacity of white people and “could not vote intelligently,” and that granting them suffrage would “excite unfriendly feelings between the two races.” Lee explained that “the negroes have neither the intelligence nor the other qualifications which are necessary to make them safe depositories of political power.” To the extent that Lee believed in reconciliation, it was among white people, and only on the precondition that black people would be denied political power and therefore the ability to shape their own fate.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

    Davethulhu (f236f1)

  237. NJRob @160,

    Thank you for the link to the anonymous letter from the U.C. Berkeley professor. I read the whole thing. If it really is from a history professor there, the writer’s job is in jeopardy. Even if it isn’t from the purported source, the letter is still significant. It’s well-written, and resonates with a lot of unspeakable and uncomfortable truths.

    I imagine it will be referenced at some point in the future as a clear-eyed view of the racial politics going on right now.

    norcal (a5428a)

  238. @245. LOL Hitler built Germy their Autobahn, too.

    He’s having dinner with Robert E. Lee tonight. 😉

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  239. We recognized the independence of Bangladesh from Pakistan, Eritrea from Ethiopia, and Israel from British Mandatory Palestine.

    For the record, Israel did not secede from Mandatory Palestine. One could correctly say that it succeeded the Mandate. The British officially (and unilaterally) terminated the mandate at midnight Friday 14 May 1948. The formal announcement and reading of the Israeli Declaration took place on the afternoon of 14 May so as not to violate the Sabbath. Had the Arabs accepted partition, the state of Palestine would have also come into being at the same time.

    Kishnevi (86d06e)

  240. DCSCA wrote:

    He fought for his country.’

    Except he didn’t.

    Lee took up arms and fought against his country: The United States of America.

    He saw his state as Virginia, and his country as the Confederate States of America.

    By your formulation, George Washington was a traitor, who took up arms against King and Country.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  241. Revealed: The Family Member Who Turned on Trump
    ……..Mary Trump, 55, the daughter of Fred Trump Jr. and Fred Trump Sr.’s eldest grandchild, is scheduled to release Too Much And Never Enough on August 11th, just weeks before the Republican National Convention.

    One of the most explosive revelations Mary will detail in the book, according to people familiar with the matter, is how she played a critical role helping The New York Times print startling revelations about Trump’s taxes, including how he was involved in “fraudulent” tax schemes and had received more than $400 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real-estate empire.
    ……….
    …….. The Daily Beast has learned that Mary plans to include conversations with Trump’s sister, retired federal judge Maryanne Trump Barry, that contain intimate and damning thoughts about her brother, according to people with knowledge of the matter.
    …….
    The book is sure to send shock waves through Washington and the Trump family just months before the election and it comes hot on the heels of John Bolton’s much-anticipated memoir. But unlike all the books by former Trump staffers, this is the first time a Trump family member has written a tell-all that is highly critical of The President………
    ………

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  242. Benedict Arnold also fought heroically for the United States before later betraying his country and taking up arms against it. Yet oddly, there are no adoring statues of him in our cities or gauzy testaments to his “honor” in the history books.

    Give it time.

    Unlike Washington, Arnold didn’t own slaves.

    beer ‘n pretzels (124b9b)

  243. Yet oddly, there are no adoring statues of him in our cities or gauzy testaments to his “honor” in the history books.

    There is a wonderful and very poignant memorial to Arnold at the Saratoga battlefield. Arnold of course fought heroically in that battle, which turned out to be a very important victory for the Continental Army. He was wounded in the leg at Saratoga, bringing about his lifelong limp and also sowing the seeds of his resentment towards what he saw as under-appreciation. Anyway, the memorial does not bear his name, but it is a simply a stone likeness of a single boot erected near where Arnold was injured during the battle.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  244. @251-
    He saw his state as Virginia, and his country as the Confederate States of America.
    He swore an oath to support and defend the United States and the Constitution when was commissioned as an officer in the United States Army.

    By your formulation, George Washington was a traitor, who took up arms against King and Country.
    He was, as were all of the Founding Fathers, if they lost the American Revolution.

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  245. Well, there’s this:

    My jaw drops at the notion that Robert E. Lee didn’t hold enlightened racial views one-and-a-half centuries ago.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  246. There is a monument to Arnold at Saratoga.
    More precisely to Arnold’s leg.
    https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boot-monument

    Kishnevi (86d06e)

  247. Ah, I see JVW got there while I was noodling around with Google.

    Kishnevi (86d06e)

  248. Poll: Independents dissatisfied with Trump, Cotton; Biden competitive in Arkansas

    A new survey from Talk Business & Politics-Hendrix College shows that Trump and Cotton have negative job approval ratings with voters, with independents giving them low marks by a double-digit margin. The poll was conducted Tuesday, June 9 and Wednesday, June 10, of 869 statewide likely voters and has a margin of error of +/-3.3%
    …..
    ……[S]elf-identified independent voters in Arkansas disapprove of Trump by a 39-54% margin and disapprove of Cotton by a 39-51% margin. Voters in this same poll gave Republican Gov. Asa Hutchinson a 62-19% positive job review, with independents supporting Hutchinson by a 64-20% margin.
    …….
    Arkansas voters today only give Trump a two-point advantage over Democrat Joe Biden.
    ………
    Trump won Arkansas with 60% of the vote in 2016. Again, independent voters are leaning to Biden by a 46-40% margin.
    ……….

    Rip Murdock (a217ed)

  249. “My jaw drops at the notion that Robert E. Lee didn’t hold enlightened racial views one-and-a-half centuries ago.”

    “I don’t know that there is any record of him expressing sympathy for anti-black sentiment”

    Davethulhu (f236f1)


  250. “I don’t know that there is any record of him expressing sympathy for anti-black sentiment.”

    OK, fair point. What I had wanted to convey is that I don’t know any record of him encouraging vigilante attacks or other attempts to terrorize recently-freed slaves.

    JVW (ee64e4)

  251. Most of those so-called monuments are monuments only because most illiterates don’t know what monuments are. What in the name of Nancy Pelosi’s sainted father is monumental about the double statue of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson erected in Baltimore in 1948? In 1948! What is its historical significance other than what politicians were pandering to in 1948 when they put it up and in 2017 when they took it down?

    nk (1d9030)

  252. @251. By your formulation, George Washington was a traitor, who took up arms against King and Country.

    He was- to the British Crown. And he wasn’t alone:

    “We must, indeed, all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.“ — Benjamin Franklin. Statement at the signing of the Declaration of Independence (1776-07-04), quoted as an anecdote in The Works of Benjamin Franklin by Jared Sparks (1840).

    And if they’d lost– and couldn’t flee to a sanctuary and caught- they’d have been hanged.

    _______

    @255. “He swore an oath to support and defend the United States and the Constitution when was commissioned as an officer in the United States Army.” Yep, yep, yep to all your points – on top of slaughtering United States citizens, betraying his oath only serves to make his treasonous actions all the worse. Calling a toilet a ‘Lee-trine’ would still too much of a ‘monument’ to him.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  253. I imagine it will be referenced at some point in the future as a clear-eyed view of the racial politics going on right now.

    norcal (a5428a) — 6/14/2020 @ 6:33 pm

    Glad to do so. I believed it was a thoughtful letter and extremely appropriate for our times. It’s a shame that it had to be written anonymously for fear of safety and livelihood.

    NJRob (4d595c)

  254. Washington was never a British regular officer, nor did he ever swear an oath to defend the crown when commissioned as such.

    In fact, from the time he took command of the Continental Army outside Boston in 1775 until a year later when Congress declared independence, Washington offered a toast to the health of King George III at the start of every meal with his officers.

    We’ve been over this before. The American colonies revolted after years of abuse, including dissolution of their courts and elected legislatures, armed invasion, oppressive occupation and incitement of terror attacks by Indians, from a government in which they had no representation or political stake.

    In April 1861, when Lee betrayed his oath to take up arms against his country, nothing even remotely comparable had been visited on the southern United States. Their sole justification for attempting to destroy the country was that they had lost a free and fair election in which they participated as equals.

    Dave (1bb933)

  255. JVW wrote:

    My jaw drops at the notion that Robert E. Lee didn’t hold enlightened racial views one-and-a-half centuries ago.

    There was a man, of some note, who also failed to have enlightened 21st century views during the middle of the 19th century:

    Though Lincoln argued that the founding fathers’ phrase “All men are created equal” applied to black and white people alike, this did not mean he thought they should have the same social and political rights. His views became clear during an 1858 series of debates with his opponent in the Illinois race for U.S. Senate, Stephen Douglas, who had accused him of supporting “negro equality.”

    In their fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed blacks having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites.

    What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust.

    Like his views on emancipation, Lincoln’s position on social and political equality for African-Americans would evolve over the course of his presidency. In the last speech of his life, delivered on April 11, 1865, he argued for limited black suffrage, saying that any black man who had served the Union during the Civil War should have the right to vote.

    For much of his career, Lincoln believed that colonization—or the idea that a majority of the African American population should leave the United States and settle in Africa or Central America—was the best way to confront the problem of slavery. His two great political heroes, Henry Clay and Thomas Jefferson, had both favored colonization; both were slave owners who took issue with aspects of slavery but saw no way that black and white people could live together peaceably. Lincoln first publicly advocated for colonization in 1852, and in 1854 said that his first instinct would be “to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia” (the African state founded by the American Colonization Society in 1821).

    Nearly a decade later, even as he edited the draft of the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed slaves at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America. Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of white people towards black people, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.”

    Lincoln’s support of colonization provoked great anger among black leaders and abolitionists, who argued that African Americans were as much natives of the country as white people, and thus deserved the same rights. After he issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln never again publicly mentioned colonization, and a mention of it in an earlier draft was deleted by the time the final proclamation was issued in January 1863.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  256. Dave wrote:

    Their sole justification for attempting to destroy the country was that they had lost a free and fair election in which they participated as equals.

    Nullification and possible secession were issues long before the election of 1860:

    The extent of this change and the problem of the actual distribution of powers between state and the federal governments would be a matter of political and ideological discussion up to the Civil War and beyond.[9] In the early 1790s the debate centered on Alexander Hamilton’s nationalistic financial program versus Jefferson’s democratic and agrarian program, a conflict that led to the formation of two opposing national political parties. Later in the decade the Alien and Sedition Acts led to the states’ rights position being articulated in the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions.[10] The Kentucky Resolutions, written by Thomas Jefferson, contained the following, which has often been cited as a justification for both nullification and secession:

    … that in cases of an abuse of the delegated powers, the members of the general government, being chosen by the people, a change by the people would be the constitutional remedy; but, where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy: that every State has a natural right in cases not within the compact, (casus non fœderis) to nullify of their own authority all assumptions of power by others within their limits: that without this right, they would be under the dominion, absolute and unlimited, of whosoever might exercise this right of judgment for them: that nevertheless, this commonwealth, from motives of regard and respect for its co-States, has wished to communicate with them on the subject: that with them alone it is proper to communicate, they alone being parties to the compact, and solely authorized to judge in the last resort of the powers exercised under it …[11]

    The Virginia Resolutions, written by James Madison, hold a similar argument:

    The resolutions, having taken this view of the Federal compact, proceed to infer that, in cases of a deliberate, palpable, and dangerous exercise of other powers, not granted by the said compact, the States, who are parties thereto, have the right, and are in duty bound to interpose to arrest the evil, and for maintaining, within their respective limits, the authorities, rights, and liberties appertaining to them. … The Constitution of the United States was formed by the sanction of the States, given by each in its sovereign capacity. It adds to the stability and dignity, as well as to the authority of the Constitution, that it rests on this solid foundation. The States, then, being parties to the constitutional compact, and in their sovereign capacity, it follows of necessity that there can be no tribunal above their authority to decide, in the last resort, whether the compact made by them be violated; and, consequently, as parties to it, they must themselves decide, in the last resort, such questions as may be of sufficient magnitude to require their interposition.[12]

    Historians differ over the extent to which either resolution advocated the doctrine of nullification. Historian Lance Banning wrote, “The legislators of Kentucky (or more likely, John Breckinridge, the Kentucky legislator who sponsored the resolution) deleted Jefferson’s suggestion that the rightful remedy for federal usurpation was a “nullification” of such acts by each state acting on its own to prevent their operation within its respective borders. Rather than suggesting individual, although concerted, measures of this sort, Kentucky was content to ask its sisters to unite in declarations that the acts were “void and of no force”, and in “requesting their appeal” at the succeeding session of the Congress.”[13] The key sentence, and the word “nullification” was used in supplementary Resolutions passed by Kentucky in 1799.[14]

    Madison’s judgment is clearer. He was chairman of a committee of the Virginia Legislature, which issued a book-length Report on the Resolutions of 1798, published in 1800 after they had been decried by several states. This asserted that the state did not claim legal force. “The declarations in such cases are expressions of opinion, unaccompanied by other effect than what they may produce upon opinion, by exciting reflection. The opinions of the judiciary, on the other hand, are carried into immediate effect by force.” If the states collectively agreed in their declarations, there were several methods by which it might prevail, from persuading Congress to repeal the unconstitutional law, to calling a constitutional convention, as two-thirds of the states may.[15] When, at the time of the nullification crisis, he was presented with the Kentucky resolutions of 1799, he argued that the resolutions themselves were not Jefferson’s words, and that Jefferson meant this not as a constitutional, but as a revolutionary right.

    In the end, the issue was settled by nothing more than naked force. I have to wonder: had forces not fired upon Union troops at Fort Sumpter, would the Confederacy have been allowed peaceful secession?

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  257. The indispensable quality of a hero is not that he is brave, or smart, or a skilled fighter. Villains can be brave and smart and skilled fighters.

    The indispensable quality of a hero is that he does, or attempts to do, a good thing. What good did the Confederate generals do?

    nk (1d9030)

  258. I wonder when the mob will force this to be taken down: Historical Marker 4: Jefferson Davis

    For three years (1821-1824) while a student at Transylvania University Jefferson Davis (afterwards President of Southern Confederacy) lived here with Joseph Ficklin then Postmaster of Lexington.

    Mr Davis lived on the second floor of the building at the corner of South Limestone and High streets in Lexington. Like many, I had paid scant attention to the marker, until some enterprising fellows in the 1970s turned part of the first floor into the Jefferson Davis Inn, a right decent bar and eatery. I was never much of a beer drinker, but I have downed a few there.

    Alas! At some point after I moved away from the Bluegrass State, in December of 1984, the original Jefferson Davis Inn failed. In February of 2013, a new Jefferson Davis Inn was opened on the corner of Cedar Street and South Broadway, but it, too, eventually failed, closing its doors in January of 2017.

    But the saddest bar closing in Lexington was the Clubhouse, also known as High on Rose, at the intersection of High and Rose streets. In an old building, with time worn century old floors, you could get pitchers of cold dark beer, east greasy hamburgers and the Clubhouse’s hand cut French fries. It was within half a block of where I lived, and had a large, loyal clientele.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  259. The purpose of the South’s secession would still have been the preservation of the institution of black slavery. We can discuss whether James Madison might have thought secession procedurally justifiable, or we can discuss whether there was anything noble or laudatory about Confederate motives.

    I understand why the pro-statue crowd prefers the former discussion.

    Leviticus (26ac19)

  260. And I have to wonder: when will the mob come for this apartment building? The swastika on this apartment building, at the corner of Lyndhurst Place (which it faces, and Rose Street, in Lexington, Kentucky, is both backwards and set at a different angle than the one used by Adolf Hitler and the Nazis, as well as predating der Führer’s rise to power in Germany.

    I used to live on Lyndhurst Place, when I was a student at the University of Kentucky, but two doors down; not in this building.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  261. In the Third Book of Moses, it was written:

    The purpose of the South’s secession would still have been the preservation of the institution of black slavery. We can discuss whether James Madison might have thought secession procedurally justifiable, or we can discuss whether there was anything noble or laudatory about Confederate motives.

    I understand why the pro-statue crowd prefers the former discussion.

    No one is advocating a return to slavery.

    The Confederate constitution protected slavery, stating, “No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.” However, slavery was a doomed economic system, the inefficiencies of which would become more and more obvious as industrialization proceeded.

    When would slavery have ended in the CSA, had it been allowed to secede, or had it won its war for independence? No one can really know, of course, but my guess is that mechanization of agriculture would have made the system mostly obsolete by the 1890s.

    The Dana in Kentucky (6a5316)

  262. I guess I am pro-statue but I agree the Confederacy wanted slavery. If the statues are that offensive, move them but don’t destroy them.

    DRJ (15874d)

  263. How long until Mnt. Rushmore is ruined?

    mg (8cbc69)

  264. Apples and oranges. Mt. Rushmore is a national monument. Nine out of ten of those Confederate statutes are nothing more than street art. Might as well ask when that mural of Greta Thunberg will be ruined.

    I mean, seriously. Lee’s gravestone is a monument. A plaque, a fresco, a pedestal, a statue at Appotomatox, or Shiloh, or Gettyssburg is a monument. His home is a monument. What’s a statue in a park or at a traffic circle in memory or celebration of? Did his horse poop there or something?

    nk (1d9030)

  265. meanwhile the tomb of the unknown soldier is torn down in philadelphia, what does it matter right?

    narciso (7404b5)

  266. Appomattox. I always misspell that.

    nk (1d9030)

  267. google dissapears churchills image, gandhi is cancelled, the fire rise, and you look for the squirrel,

    narciso (7404b5)

  268. It’s not 1948 anymore.

    nk (1d9030)

  269. No one is advocating a return to slavery.

    What if instead of slavery we brought back the draft. Instead of conscripts in the military, we made every 18 year old train six months in a police academy and then work two years as a police officer (if they don’t wash out. if you wash out you are totally free of the obligation, but you also don’t get your four years of GI Bill).

    Whole lot of people are angry that the cops can’t do anything right. Wouldn’t it be a better country if everyone knew how to stop a bad guy, how to write a police report, how to testify, how to give CPR, etc? If everyone worked a drunk driver fatality, talked to an angry homeless man who really had nothing to lose, helped someone who had been victimized when you really can’t fix what happened, it would change our society quite a lot.

    It would be better than sending out free checks and bailouts.

    Dustin (d59cff)

  270. I understand why the pro-statue crowd prefers the former discussion.

    If I didn’t know better, I’d say that the implication here is that the pro-statue crowd secretly believes there was something noble or laudatory in the South’s motives.

    When in fact much of the “pro-statue crowd” offers neither argument. They just oppose cultural and historical cleansing.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  271. it would change our society quite a lot.

    One thing it would do: it would make it suck to be a career criminal, or even a serial fukup like Rodney King. There’s a reason that cops get hard attitudes and/or a warrior mentality; go tell some mother her son has been shot to death, or a wife her husband won’t be coming home. and something will change inside you.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  272. What good did the Confederate generals do?

    I dunno. Let’s talk about Sherman.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  273. Take the Sherman statues down too (and put them all in a museum, sure). Kids can read about Sherman in books, just as well as they can read about Lee. Books allow for a lot more nuance and context than statues.

    You are not addressing this argument. What is the point of a statue? What lesson or history does a statue teach that a book cannot?

    Leviticus (efada1)

  274. I’ll do “what about Sherman”. He did his duty to his country and to history. He made sure the South would never rise again militarily. That the United States of America would not be a land of perpetual revolution like the United States of Mexico. And when that job was neatly done, he went and did the same thing for the Indians. Next to George Washington, I admire him him the most of all American military leaders.

    nk (1d9030)

  275. and then jim crow, came along and dismantled his effort, and the courts ratified it for 60 years thereabouts,

    narciso (7404b5)

  276. Sherman could have put the civilian South to the sword, the way the US government did in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Would that have been more or less statue-worthy, or would it just require a longer caption on the bronze plaque?

    Leviticus (26ac19)

  277. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-spread-building-ventilation-covid-19-study

    https://www.cbs.com/shows/cbs_evening_news/video/Y9YQ_y2eh96cKlQk3Xy_bSPaG7NM9l27/experts-suggest-improving-ventilation-may-reduce-coronavirus-spread\

    Besides that, there are a number of interesting things I noticed in the newspapers yesterday.

    Like, there is now saliva test for the coronavirus available. When professional golfers objected to the swab test, a saliva test was substituted next time

    Someone tried to pass a counterfeit $20 bill in the same store shortly before George Floyd did. The owner wasn;t there but when he says an employee called him after 8 pm saying the police were killing someone he said to call the police on the police.

    There is a resurgence of the coronavirus in the city of Beijing. There was some propaganda about a cutting board for salmon having been found with some virus on it. I think that was to support the “wet market”, which was really a seafood market, theory in Wuhan. In China, officials rush out to be super yes people. but when they got serious about warning people, they, of course, said it was spread through the air.

    And more.

    Sammy Finkelman (71800b)

  278. Roll out more monuments to Hitler!!! Der Fuehrer built the autobahns und spawned the Volkswagen Beetle!

    DCSCA (797bc0)


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