Gaslighting Extraordinaire: Bill Barr: Pepper Spray Is Not a Chemical Irritant
TFG.
"Pepper spray is not a chemical irritant. It's not chemical" — AG Barr uses painstaking distinctions to defend the use of force against protesters near the White House last Monday pic.twitter.com/CQbtqLwfIk
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) June 7, 2020
ORLY?
The active ingredient in pepper spray is (6E)-N-[(4-Hydroxy-3-methoxyphenyl)methyl]-8-methylnon-6-enamide, which is more commonly known as capsaicin. https://t.co/F2CTclqlDW pic.twitter.com/1vwXUipXrL
— George Conway (@gtconway3d) June 7, 2020
OH BUT HE CLARIFIED TO SAY PEPPER BALLS AND NOT PEPPER SPRAY PATERICO IS LIEING!!!!1!
OK…
"Pepper spray is not a chemical irritant. It’s not chemical.” —Attorney General Bill Barr on @FaceTheNation.
“The most effective chemical irritant available.” —Pepperball’s official website. pic.twitter.com/GU6fHlD3yp
— Yoni Appelbaum (@YAppelbaum) June 7, 2020
The PepperBall system is proven effective from distances up to 150 feet, giving you more range and more time to make a critical decision. The combination of powerful, accurate launchers and versatile, chemically effective projectiles allows you to accomplish your mission safely even without a clear line of sight.
A U.S. Park Police spokesperson said Friday it was a “mistake” to insist in a statement Tuesday that no tear gas was used to clear Lafayette Park on Monday before President Trump walked across to visit St. John’s Church.
However, the spokesperson insisted that Park Police did not lie, explicitly noting that pepper balls were shot. Pepper balls can cause irritation to the eyes and cause tears.
“I’m not going to say that pepper balls don’t irritate you,” Sgt. Eduardo Delgado told Vox. “I’m not saying it’s not a tear gas, but I’m just saying we use a pepper ball that shoots a powder.”
Barr is gaslighting the public, as he often does.
“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” — George Orwell, 1984
What exactly does he think a chemical is? I know mocking lawyers for science mistakes amounts to picking on the differently-abled, but considering the distinction he’s attempting to create, I think it is a fair question.
john (cd2753) — 6/7/2020 @ 11:16 amSo what is it, you fascist tool, an air freshener?
I hope they use generous quantities when Barr and Trump are taken into custody on January 21, 2021.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 11:24 amTo paraphrase Barr: “I’ll be gaslighting here all week.”
Paul Montagu (190800) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:01 pmHe also denied his role in pushing the peaceful protesters out of Lafayette Square, and then he said they weren’t all that peaceful anyway.
Barr is not an honest or honorable human being.
Hah, get it done, not go do it. Totally different.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:09 pmQuoting Orwell to blast Barr alone when people are being told you can’t say ‘All Lives Matter’ (some even being fired for it) is ironic.
Watch the Mayor of Minneapolis being told by the mob he must only give ‘yes’ or ‘no’ answers to his interrogators before making the walk of shame after he says ‘no’ to the question of whether the police department should be completely defunded.
There’s Orwell in our future folks, but it’s not from Barr.
harkin (d8e40a) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:13 pm_
Does he not understand that every who wants to believe him is already pretending they do and that this clearly non-truth based “explanation” is not going to convince the other 60-65% of us? And that he is, in fact, digging his hole deeper. Stop digging, Bill, the walls are going to cave in.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:13 pmFunny thing, harkin. Mrs. Montagu has a bumper sticker that says “You Matter”. Never heard one complaint, but she was complimented a few times for it.
Paul Montagu (190800) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:17 pmIf they named themselves BLMT (Black Lives Matter, Too), there would’ve been a fraction of the controversy, IMO.
And speaking of misinformation:
Julio Rosas
@Julio_Rosas11
·
.@nhannahjones, creator of the 1619 project, on Tom Cotton’s op-ed: [He] certainly has the right to write and say whatever he wants in this country, but we as a news organization should not be running something that is offering misinformation to the public unchecked.
_ _
Quarantiana
harkin (d8e40a) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:18 pm@TianaTheFirst
·
I still haven’t seen one critic cite a concrete factual error in Cotton’s op-ed. By contrast, the Times had to issue a key factual correction from the supposed magnum opus from the “Beyoncé of journalism” because she rejected actual fact checking from a historian.
_
“ Mrs. Montagu has a bumper sticker that says “You Matter”
More misdirection.
Have her change it to ‘All Lives Matter’ and tell me how that works out.
harkin (d8e40a) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:20 pm_
BTW, I enjoyed the DEBATE between CBS’ Brennan and AG Barr this AM on face the nation. Why doesn’t she just come on TV with a “Joe Biden for President” Button? Anyway, I find it odd, that patterico quotes a “Tweet” about what Barr said when you can go online and get the transcript. Here’s the applicable portion:
BARR: I was there. They were thrown. I saw them thrown.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you believe that what the police did using tear gas and projectiles was appropriate?
BARR: Here’s- here’s what the media is missing. This was not an operation to respond to that particular crowd. It was an operation to move the perimeter one block.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the methods they used you think were appropriate, is that what you’re saying?
BARR: When they met resistance, yes. They announced three times. They didn’t move. By the way, there was no tear gas used. The tear gas was used Sunday when they had to clear H Street to allow the fire department to come in to save St. John’s Church. That’s when tear gas was used.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There were chemical irritants the park police has said–
BARR: No, there were not chemical irritants. Pepper spray is not a chemical irritant.
It’s not chemical.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Pepper spray, you’re saying is what was used–
BARR: Pepper balls. Pepper balls.
Notice that Brennen switches from “Tear Gas” to “Chemical Irritant” – Barr picked up on it, but most real-time viewers probably thought the discussion was about “Tear Gas” which is why Brennan did it. And yes Barr is correct, Pepper Balls are made from Pepper and its NOT a chemical. Which is why Barr seized on the phrase.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:24 pmThe receptivity of the great masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan. As soon as you sacrifice this slogan and try to be many-sided, the effect will piddle away, for the crowd can neither digest nor retain the material offered. In this way the result is weakened and in the end entirely cancelled out.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:26 pm– Mein Kampf
From a previous thread, an eyewitness account:
No law enforcement agency admits to using tear gas Monday, but tear gas canisters were found at the scene
…….
As of Thursday evening, US Park Police, Arlington Police, DC Metro Police and the Secret Service have all denied using any kind of tear gas in Lafayette Square Monday evening.
But federal law enforcement did launch tear gas Monday evening outside Lafayette Park, and WUSA9 crews witnessed it.
Here’s a first-person perspective of what WUSA9 reporter Nathan Baca saw himself:
…….
We witnessed canisters venting out green-colored gas. After watching the line of US Park Police and Secret Service march south on 17th Street past us, we went back to the intersection of H and 17th where we found canisters scattered on the street.
……..
I took one canister labeled as holding OC gas pellets. I handed WUSA9’s Darren Haynes a canister labeled as holding CS projectiles.
Thursday morning, after denials from the White House and federal agencies that any tear gas was used, we discovered what that SPEDE-HEAT CS label meant: artificial tear gas was inside.
We showed our canisters to military bomb disposal expert Brian Castner, who works with Amnesty International:
“That Spede-Heat one, it’s a cartridge that has a little bit of propellant in the back,” Castner said. “It’s got a bunch of tear gas upfront and you fire it from a launcher so it goes a certain distance. I believe that one is rated to about 150 yards, so it goes fairly far and its job is to spread tear gas around a crowd.”
……
So who fired these canisters?
US Park Police says it was not them, issuing this statement: “USPP officers and other assisting law enforcement partners did not use tear gas or OC Skat Shells to close the area at Lafayette Park.”
Neither protesters nor our crews witnessed DC National Guard leave Lafayette Park during the protest.
Arlington Police who assisted them on 16th Street denies using canisters.
DC Metro Police denies assisting Park Police Monday at Lafayette Park at all.
And the US Secret Service denied using any gas or spray Monday in a statement to WUSA9 Thursday evening.
But federal law enforcement did launch tear gas Monday evening outside Lafayette Park.
We watched them do it, we suffered the effects, we picked up evidence and we are pressing for answers.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:32 pm……
It must have been the demonstrators-they gassed themselves!
Brennan also lies when she denies there were any projectiles thrown at the police. Notice that Brennan and CBS did NOT do any investigative reporting or ANY reporting at all. CBS easily could’ve contacted the Park Police and gotten the names of those Policemen saw and/or were injured by projectiles. They could’ve contacted the Park Police and simply asked for a list of ANY injured policeman. that would’ve PROVEN there was violence – or not.
Instead Brennan simply misleads/lies to the audience and says “Three of my CBS colleagues were there. We talked to them. They did no see violence. They did not hear warnings”. So what? How long were they “There” and When? The fact that 3 CBS Reporters who CLAIM – at SOME TIME -to have been in the vicinity of Lafayette park did NOT see something, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. People were in Dallas and didn’t see Kennedy shot. Does that mean Kennedy didn’t get shot? Ridiculous.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:32 pmrcocean, #10-
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:34 pmCare to comment on the eyewitness account in #12? Go to the link and see the canisters.
If you’d actually read what Barr said, he stated that
When they met resistance, yes. They announced three times. They didn’t move. By the way, there was no tear gas used. The tear gas was used Sunday when they had to clear H Street to allow the fire department to come in to save St. John’s Church. That’s when tear gas was used.
So the fact that SOMEONE found a tear gas canister or says “Tear gas” was used – doesn’t prove that it was used the Night Trump took the walk! But why go into this in such detail? once again the MSM has lied to hurt Trump. Once again the Never Trumpers including that Sanctimonious Fraud Romney, and Dumbo Ben Sasse, JUMPED at the chance to attack Trump and win some points with the New York Times.
Once again, after all the media LIES, we finally get the truth. As we did with Trump-Russia.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:40 pmI believe that rcocean has proven my point from @6.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:40 pmJacksonville-area Naval Academy alumni board member resigns after accidentally broadcasting racial slurs
……..
A seemingly quiet Friday night on the couch between a now-former Naval Academy Alumni Association Board of Trustees member and his wife went awry when a private conversation was broadcast to hundreds.
While Scott Bethmann, 63, and his wife, Nancy, were watching the news, they started discussing the Black Lives Matter movement, making racist comments and using slurs including the N-word in a video that was accidentally streamed on Facebook Live.
Now, locals are calling for action, and he’s resigned from his position with the Naval Academy Alumni Association on national and local levels, where he also served as the local chapter’s treasurer. Bethmann is also a member of the Atlantic Beach Country Club. …….
In video reviewed by the Times-Union, Bethmann can be heard talking:…….
“I’ve got the emails about how we’re supporting and we need to fix this problem, f— you,” he said in the video. “So all the white people have to say something nice to the black b—- that works in the office. But the black b—- don’t get fired. It’s bulls—. Management’s going to fire the white people.”
At one point, Nancy refers to the black community and the “f—ing Asians” and Scott uses the N-word.
“The white m—–f—– can’t say anything,” Bethmann said on the live video. “That’s the point we’re making here, Nancy.”
The pair also discussed how minority groups, particularly women, in the military were going to “steal our intellectual property.”
By the end of the 33-minute accidental stream, which mostly shows a black screen, the video shows Bethmann realizing he’s live and pointing the camera at his cream colored couch. He starts reading the comments aloud and asks “What are they talking about?” before muttering “Oops,” and cutting the feed.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:44 pm……….
Oops is right.
BTW, I’m not interested in what some Protester in 90% Democrat DC says to a biased Democrat Journalist. Monica Fields – a Reporter -claimed on a stack of bibles that Cory Lewandowski PULLED HER TO THE GROUND and COMMITTED ASSAULT. Another reporter claimed he saw it to. Then the video came out and showed both of them to be COMPLETE LIARS.
Ten “Eyewitnesses” in Ferguson claimed they saw the Police officer shoot Brown in cold blood after he said “Don’t Shoot” and had his hands up. They were all lying.
So when it comes to believing eyewitnesses, especially Liberals/Leftists, who’ll lie for “The Cause” I’m not accepting their word at face vaule.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:45 pmAnyway, I’m off to the real world. Rip Murdock can continue spamming the thread.
rcocean (fcc23e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:46 pmLOL no
Patterico (115b1f) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:47 pmIf rcocean did not exist I’d have to make him up.
Patterico (115b1f) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:48 pmAt least you are consistent, rcocean. Consistently ignoring facts or evidence, or statements that disagree with your position, but you are consistent.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:48 pmAnyway, I’m off to the real world. Rip Murdock can continue spamming the thread.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:51 pmAt least my posts are backed by citations. Yours are whatever Trump and his minions have tweeted.
“If you’d actually read what Barr said, he stated that”
He’s lying rcocean.
Davethulhu (d85c93) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:51 pm@13
You’ve been linked to hours of video from 45 minutes before the clearing the park, with none of the things you, or Barr etc, claim to have happened occuring.
So, you’re actively, willfully, refusing to acknowledge reality.
You continue to amplify the lie hoping the lie clouds reality.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:52 pmUCLA removes lecturer for questioning proposal to give black students preferential grading
“ Gordon Klein joined the Anderson School in 1981 and has also taught in the UCLA law school and Loyola Law School, according to his faculty page.
An Anderson spokesperson refused to tell The College Fix what policy or policies Klein is alleged to have violated, only confirming that he was “on leave from campus and his classes have been reassigned to other faculty.” She implied, however, that he was the subject of a discrimination complaint….
… The student’s specific request does not appear to have been made public, not even in the Change.org petition calling for Klein’s firing. The newspaper reported Thursday that the student asked for “a no-harm and shortened final exam” and extended deadlines for final assignments and projects – but only for black students.
….. Signed nearly 20,000 times as of Friday afternoon, the petition misspells the name of the Anderson School. Bains told the Daily that Klein’s email was “backhandedly racist” for treating all races equally.”
https://www.thecollegefix.com/ucla-removes-lecturer-for-questioning-proposal-to-give-black-students-preferential-grading/
Orwell indeed.
harkin (d8e40a) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:54 pm_
There are Trump supporters who think that 9/11/2001 happened because President Obama was spending all his time out playing golf. It’s better to just avoid talking to any of them.
nk (1d9030) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:06 pmPaul Montagu (190800) — 6/7/2020 @ 12:17 pm
The name was picked with the intention of promoting at least three BIG lies:
1) That only blacka can be killed by the police.
2) That the main danger to blacks comes from the police.
3) That all police can be lumped together.
That is because it is an evil, dishonest, pro=crime organization. Not pro-criminal, because this is not good for most criminals. Pro crime. Because this is good for certain criminals,
Sammy Finkelman (7b1b59) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:07 pmAnd for the “I need me a grievance” Trump wing, there was a lady driving a SUV with a “Blue Lives Matter” bumper sticker in front of me at the light. Nobody I saw bothered her.
nk (1d9030) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:11 pmThat is a big lie. I mean the reasons you made up completely.
It was a hashtag, that’s it. Kind of like #DonaldTrumpIsAGenious.
That they have a confused and confusing message is undeniable, but you completely invented those 3 things.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:15 pmSF: The name was picked with the intention of promoting at least three BIG lies:
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:15 pm
OK, I am not sure where and when the name originated.
Let’s say: The hashtag or slogan was created in order to promote three BIG lies. It makes no sense without them.
It’s obvious. The message is not confusing, it’s just at variance with reality. People who get really involved cannot be ignorant of that.
Sammy Finkelman (7b1b59) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:21 pmAnd, yeah, one more thing. I ain’t fooled by no oranges wrapping themselves in blue. Pretending to support the police. I seen how you behave towards law enforcement when it goes after Trump’s corrupt criminal cronies.
nk (1d9030) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:23 pmLet’s acknowledge what this is about. Barr halted the quest for the Holy Grail, and it’s payback time.
He’s got a bullseye on his back because he wouldn’t let the pit bulls run loose on Trump, Stone and Flynn. And, worse, he’s turned focus to those that took them off the leash.
If a crowd doesn’t want to follow police orders, the cops don’t need to wait patiently for anyone to turn violent. Resisting orders is peaceful with an asterisk. Shelley Luther was put in jail, and the reaction from many here was “meh”. Pepper balls, gosh.
BTW, haven’t heard anything more about Judge Reggie Walton’s epic takedown of Barr. Guess like just about everything else, much ado about zilch.
beer ‘n pretzels (29e776) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:38 pmYeah, they do need to wait, because the Bureau of Pre-crime was a thing in a Tom Cruise movie.
The curfew was 7PM, the crowd was peacefully protesting, the police started the clearance at 6:32PM, therefore the request to clear it was itself was not reality based, and all the lying about it is just dumb.
Shelley Luther, did a thing that was against the law, and was arrested after. Notice how even in your squirrel, you missed your point. It’s what happens with fantasists.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:52 pmThe law moves slowly, beer n pretzels, but it does move. The Supreme Court stopped things for now but it may be temporary.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/7/2020 @ 1:56 pmIt may be delayed by Covid, too.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:00 pmtherefore the request to clear it was itself was not reality based
LOL
beer ‘n pretzels (29e776) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:01 pmMara Liasson
@MaraLiasson
Biggest antifa rally in history.
[photo of WW2 Normandy campaign]
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Content Based Restriction Cernovich
@cernovich
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How do you reconcile this claim with the vandalism ANTIFA did to the WWII memorial??
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In Pursuit of Truth
@IPOT1776
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The way they were able to navigate the waters of privilege in order to storm the dreaded ‘Auto-Zone’ and reach their ‘Target’ truly was a feat to behold.
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Kano911
@Kano9112
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Same people to Mara [photo]
https://twitter.com/Kano9112/status/1269397142071902210?s=20
harkin (d8e40a) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:07 pm__ _
As interesting as it is to see Trump supporters tell us that pepper/pepper spray aren’t chemicals, I foresee days of Fox News celebrities lecturing us about the nuances of chemical irritants.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:11 pmPepper Balls. For when you need non-GMO, gluten free, vegan, no artificial colors, all natural ingredient crowd control.
kaf (87f0c4) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:12 pmCobra Venom, all natural, so it’s fine. Pitchblend, put it in your coffee.
It’s not a chemical irritant, what a genius of shifting the goalposts, ignore things like definitions. It’s just like putting chlorine in your pool, you put pepperballs in your Asado de Boda.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:20 pmThe lecturer’s response was gratuitously snarky and he was undoubtedly dismissive.
He should have told the student no in a more diplomatic way, and/or offered some alternative like allowing him/her to take an Incomplete and make up the final later.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:28 pmRepublican loyalty to Trump won’t survive a November loss
…….If Trump is repudiated decisively at the ballot box, what would a post-Trump Republican Party look like?
There are two schools of thought, roughly speaking. One, articulated by Anne Applebaum in a provocative Atlantic essay comparing Trump’s Republican allies to Vichyite enablers and Communist functionaries, analyzes the myriad reasons that mainstream Republicans have abandoned their principles to work for an immoral and unstable president. It ends on a sanguine note, concluding that careerist Republicans and ideologues alike will adapt to a new reality when he’s out of office, evolving again just as Communist apparatchiks did after the fall of the Berlin Wall.
…….
…….. The Bulwark’s Jonathan Last holds the more commonly held view that Trumpism is here to stay. “The error that Applebaum makes is that she views Trump’s hold on power to be the power of the presidency. I would argue that Trump’s tenure as president is an accident that is incidental to his real seat of power: ownership of the Republican Party,” he writes.
The history of losing one-term presidents suggests that those repudiated at the ballot box become largely irrelevant in retirement. …….Trump is different, of course. He’s not going to slink quietly away from the political scene. He will be raising a ruckus on Twitter and beyond, and will still have a loyal cadre of allies willing to promote his divisive messages even out of power. He’s even toyed with the idea of starting his own media company.
………
……… If Republicans want to win elections into the future in a diversifying America, they’re going to need to keep some distance from the president. They’re not suicidal. In the Trump era, they’ve been making the amoral but strategically sound judgment that there’s no way they can survive without maintaining a good relationship with the president. …..
The most likely scenario is that an out-of-power Trump will still be viewed favorably by most Republicans, but will no longer be the political force that can handpick primary winners and dictate the party’s legislative strategy. …..
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 2:52 pm………..
Cool…
When we break out the fire hose for crowd control… we can say the police is spraying chemicals at the crowd. Since water is a chemical ya’know.
whembly (c30c83) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:07 pmhohum
https://dailycaller.com/2020/06/07/diamond-district-terrorist-threat-nypd/
narciso (7404b5) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:17 pm“When we break out the fire hose for crowd control… we can say the police is spraying chemicals at the crowd. Since water is a chemical ya’know.”
What is pepper spray? In your words.
Davethulhu (d85c93) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:21 pmAssuming he actually gives up power rather than requiring retirement by force, he can’t do any of that from prison, or after paying his debt to society for treason. Whether to spare the country by allowing him to flee into exile in Russia or North Korea is a tough call. Seems dangerous to me.
If he is crushed at the polls, I think it will greatly reduce his attractiveness (even to his cultists) by shattering the alternative fantasy universe he has created and thrived in for the last five years.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:22 pmThe effect of a water hose used for crowd control is not the result of any chemical reaction.
If it dissolved the hapless targets, your analogy would make sense…
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:38 pmWhat a World Without Cops Would Look Like
……..
With other campaigns to cut police budgets underway in cities like Los Angeles and New York and calls to defund the police gathering steam on social media, I spoke with Brooklyn College sociology professor Alex Vitale, the coordinator of the Policing & Social Justice Project and author of The End of Policing, to talk about the sweeping vision of police abolition and what it means in practice.
…….
Procedural justice folks, they want to restore the public’s trust in the police so that the police can go back to policing. But this ignores the question of what they are policing, and whether they should be policing it. …….
………
It goes hand in hand with decriminalizing sex work, drugs, homelessness, mental illness. We don’t really need a vice unit, we need a system of legalized sex work that’s regulated just like any other business. [W]e need (school) counselors and restorative justice programs. …….[W]e need supportive housing, community based drop-in centers, social workers.
…….
…….. What abolitionists say is, Well, let’s figure out why they’re doing this and try to develop concrete prevention strategies. Not all homicides are the same. Is it a domestic violence case? Is it a school shooting? Is it a drug deal gone bad?……
……….
…… A friend of ours, they had their car stolen. The police actually recovered it and arrested the driver. So they were like, “See? We need police.” And I said, “Well, let’s dig a little deeper here. What do we know about the person who got arrested that stole your car?” ………[T]he first time that we come in contact with this person, we’ve got to start trying to address what’s driving their problematic behavior.
……..
……. The reality is a lot of people just don’t call the police as it is because they feel like it’s just going to make their lives worse. That is a deep truth. And so what we want to do is not just to leave them on their own, we want to try and start fixing their problems………
……..
I’d be in favor of defunding the police if California repealed its gun laws. I’d also like to see a social worker confront the North Hollywood bank robbers, who were armed with following:
1 Semi-automatic HK-91
2 full auto Norinco Type 56 S rifles,
1 full auto Norinco Type 56 S-1, and
1 full auto Bushmaster XM15 Dissipator
As well as Molotov cocktails
Yeah, right
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:43 pmWilliam Barr’s backpedaling tour continues
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:53 pmMajority of the Minneapolis City Council pledges to dismantle the Police Department
Nine members — a veto-proof majority — of the Minneapolis City Council pledged on Sunday to dismantle the city’s Police Department, promising to create a new system of public safety in a city where law enforcement has long been accused of racism.
Saying that the city’s current policing system could not be reformed, the council members stood before hundreds of people who gathered late in the day on a grassy hill, and signed a pledge to begin the process of taking apart the Police Department as it now exists.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 3:56 pm…..
Council members said in interviews on Sunday that they did not have specific plans to announce for what a new public safety system for the city would look like……
……
I guess we’ll see what defunding the police will look like …..
“Come quietly or there will be trouble.”
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:23 pmThe stupid today is overwhelming.
The Minneapolis city council wants to disband the police (I want to see how that plays with the union contract; are all pensions vested?)
AG Barr says that pepper spray is not a chemical irritant (I have a test for Mr Barr).
I am going to burn my 2020 calendar and pretend it’s 2021. Silly? Sure, but not as silly as 2020.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:40 pm@51 I suspect that the only substantive difference between the police and the new public safety office (or whatever they call it if it happens) would be that the people with significant complaints against them wouldn’t get “rehired”, because the police union can’t force them to keep on people who have not been hired for the job yet.
It might be interesting to watch if they did make substantive changes, though. You know, for the rest of us.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:41 pmThe proper move for the police department is to go on strike. Every last one. And not come back until the city council has resigned.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:41 pm@55 I don’t know enough about the make-up of Minneapolis or their current climate or their other policing bodies to know if that would work or not.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:48 pmRather than trying to proscribe or fine-tune police use of deadly force, what if we made it mandatory?
Require the police to use deadly force on anyone who fails to comply with a lawful order within, say, 10 seconds.
Sure, the occasional epileptic or blackout drunk would meet untimely ends, but it would eliminate a major problem of racial injustice.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:48 pm@57 I hear they are having trouble with the lockdown and getting their shipments of poor Irish kids, so maybe that could help that problem as well. Plus premarination.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:52 pmSure, the occasional epileptic or blackout drunk would meet untimely ends, but it would eliminate a major problem of racial injustice.
So, Dave, you think the police shoot down any black man that fails to comply within 10 seconds? Is that what you’re saying? I guess things have gotten bad since they stopped using batons (Rodney King). Tell me how many times did they shoot George Floyd?
The only reason that there aren’t these complaints about whites being killed is that no one cares what happens to a redneck.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:00 pmI don’t they should replace the MPD, they should just require every citizen to be armed.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:09 pmSpeaking of gaslighting, when — out of the blue — a nationwide movement springs up backed by all the powers of the Left (newspapers, TV news, entertainment, politicians) all spouting the same incredible nonsense in unison, I feel a bit manipulated.
“Disband the police.” When was the last time you hear this from a politician? (Never!) Now you year it all over, with maybe some hedging to “defund.” You would think that black men are being shot down for no reason daily, when in fact nearly every police department tries real hard not to shoot anyone. More people drown in buckets. But logic is truly out the window, and if you are seen opposing this crap you are called a racist, or a fascist or a cop-lover or something.
I am amazed at the level of compliance with this, but perhaps I only see what they want me to see. If the Tea Party marches in 2009 had gotten this level of coverage, it’s hard to say how much would have changed. But the press hated them and loves these. Don’t believe the lies.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:14 pmShoot anyone and everyone regardless of age, race, sex, Greekness, etc.
Of course, there would be a difficult transitional period, but once people internalize the reality that disobeying or resisting a cop means swift and certain death, tragic instances of non-compliance should become far more rare.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:15 pm*More people drown in buckets than people are shot with malice by police.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:15 pmDave, why on earth would we do this? What is the problem you are trying to solve? Do you think they do this today, based on race? Or are you just trolling?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:16 pmIf we outlaw policemen, only outlaws will have policemen.
Comrades, American proles are like little children. They want this, they want that, they want it shiny, they want it now. Humor them, play along with them, and soon they will forget it and turn their attention to something else.
nk (1d9030) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:23 pmI’m being silly, obviously.
But if we eliminated any scope for the police to treat non-compliant people differently, we would thereby also eliminate any possibility of different outcomes based on race.
It’s a thought-experiment.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:25 pmIs the plan still to stand in solidarity with BLM by kneeling in submission?
Also, for anyone willing to kneel in front of strangers please reach out to applications @ pimpahoe dot com. PimpAHoe is an equal opportunity opportunity employer. Reach out now and our recruiters will put you in contact with a local franchisee.
frosty (f27e97) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:32 pmIt’s a thought-experiment.
Land of the free, home of the fu–ing terrified?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:36 pmHow do you suppose gun sales are going in MN? Of course they probably have all kinds of stupid rules now.
This will die down, and be forgotten by the demonstrators, and remembered by John Q Public at the polls in November. “Disband the police” is the kind of thing that needs no retort; it hangs itself. Not that this will stop Trump.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:40 pmOMG. I can’t believe that this is still a bugaboo that is being fought about again within the government and citizens.
This stupid line of thinking by AG Barr is because there is a mistaken believe that riot control agents, such as CS and OC, are outlawed and therefore not allowed by police forces. All because folks misunderstand the Chemical Weapons Convention rulings on where and when riot control agents can be used. https://www.opcw.org/our-work/what-chemical-weapon
The quote is direct from the OPCW’s ruling on what is and isn’t a chemical weapon and where they can be legally used.
Note the two lines that I emphasized, there is a feeling by a number of folks that police need to remove CS and OC from their arsenal because they have shade tree lawyers on international arms control treaties mention that riot control agents are outlawed. The hangup is all about the word “chemical” as if the treaty and the earlier the Geneva Protocols on the laws of war completely outlawed chemical weapons from national inventories for tools of war. Again, poor understanding of what these treaties do, don’t do, and what the language in them actually means in the real world has gotten folks spun up since at least Vietnam (the use of Napalm and the Geneva Protocols has been a charge about violation of chemical weapons by the Soviets). Some have taken this bad faith argument as far to say that when NATO troops in Afghanistan used agro-chemicals on the poppy fields, they were in violation of the treaties. All of these bad faith arguments lead to some majorly bad faith defensive actions by folks on the paleo-right and whatever Trump represents that CS and OC aren’t “chemicals”. Sort of the same thinking that it wasn’t rape like what Whoopi said once on TV about the MeToo issues or that it wasn’t violence for the recent riots by more than a few political types and pundits in the last week.
Words mean something and when you start to discount even the American Heritage Desktop dictionary view of what a word means then you have yielded the space to the other side of the political aisle. It also doesn’t help that again, you have shade tree lawyering about international arms treaties and international rules of war. Both sides are making bad faith arguments and bad faith defense of what riot control devices are allowed or not allowed.
Charles (8ffdf1) — 6/7/2020 @ 6:32 pmBLM has made a lot of noise about many white people killed by cops. Their argument actually is not that cops just kill blacks. There are a lot of reasons why blacks have great fear of being killed by cops, even if the cops aren’t racist, that make at least some sense.
And Dave was being sarcastic. I hope you’re doing ok Kevin and apologize for blasting you for your extremely uncharitable comment yesterday. Crappy year for everybody.
Dustin (d59cff) — 6/7/2020 @ 6:56 pmPoll: 80 percent of voters say things are out of control in the U.S.
Eight out of 10 voters believe that things are out of control in the United States, with majorities still concerned about the spread of the coronavirus, pessimistic about the economy’s returning to normal before next year and down on President Donald Trump’s ability to unite the nation.
Those are the major findings of a new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll that was conducted May 28 to June 2, during the aftermath of George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis, as the U.S. death toll from the coronavirus surpassed 100,000 and after millions of people have lost their jobs.
……..
Despite the turmoil and instability, the NBC News/WSJ poll shows that attitudes about Trump and the 2020 election remain locked in place………
………
…….. [I]t’s striking that Trump’s job rating and ballot position haven’t changed given the extraordinary events over the last 90 days.
……..
According to the poll, 80 percent of registered voters say they feel that things are generally out of control in the country, versus 15 percent who believe that things are under control.
That includes 92 percent of Democrats, 78 percent of independents and even 66 percent of Republicans who think things are out of control.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 7:16 pm…….
Voters by a ratio of more than 2-to-1 say they’re more worried about the death of George Floyd…..and the actions of police than they are about recent protests that have occasionally turned violent.
……
The poll shows that a majority of voters — 55 percent — prefer a candidate for president or Congress who looks for compromise and consensus, even if it means less change.
…….
“Against Biden, going back to last July, here are Trump’s numbers — 42 percent, 41 percent, 44 percent, 44 percent, 43 percent, 42 percent and again 42 percent,” said [Democratic pollster Jeff Horwitt of Hart Research Associates, who helped conduct the survey].
……….
Context they said:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/07/barr-says-peaceful-protestors-are-one-of-the-big-lies-media-are-perpetuating/#.Xt1eZxqGgQA.facebook
Narciso (7404b5) — 6/7/2020 @ 7:17 pmmr. president donald trump, whose parents’ reaction to the Griswold v. Gunnison supreme court decision was “too little, too late”, did not hire mr. bill barr for his pretty face
he hired him for his pretty lies
and for never forgetting to use chapstick
nk (1d9030) — 6/7/2020 @ 7:26 pmgah! Griswold v. Connecticut i mean
Griswold & Gunnison were Confederate gun makers
for the Confederate army
i wonder why i made that slip
nk (1d9030) — 6/7/2020 @ 7:29 pmHmmm…
The common definition of “Chemical”: a substance produced by or used in a chemical process.
Capsaicin is a natural compound – made-up of chemicals, not unlike common table salt – but it is not a chemical under the common definition.
Also, not unlike table salt, it is a foodstuff.
…but I reckon ‘gotcha’ nonsense matters more.
MJN1957 (28ce29) — 6/7/2020 @ 7:36 pmJoe Biden has doubled his lead over Donald Trump in Michigan, poll says
…….
Biden, the presumed Democratic nominee, leads Republican Trump in Michigan 53-41, according to a poll conducted by EPIC-MRA of Lansing between May 30 and last Wednesday.
Biden’s lead over Trump in Michigan, seen as a key battleground state in the Nov. 3 presidential election, has doubled from six points in January, when Michigan voters favored Biden over Trump 50-44, in an earlier EPIC-MRA survey.
……
Asked about Trump’s handling of the pandemic, 58% gave him a negative rating, 41% gave him a positive rating, and 1% were undecided, or refused to say.
…….
U.S. Sen. Gary Peters, a Democrat from Bloomfield Township, leads Republican challenger John James of Farmington Hills, 51-36, with 13% undecided or refusing to say.
Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer got a job performance rating of 55% positive and 43% negative, up from 43-50 in January. And 60% gave her good marks for her handling of the coronavirus pandemic.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 7:39 pm……..
I wish I could get excited about polling numbers, but conditions this election are as volatile as any since 1860.
Anyone who thinks they have a handle on what’ll happen a week from now, much less five months, is kidding themselves.
And then there’s the Russian vote…
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 7:55 pmSo the manufacturer is falsely advertising the product, then?
Also, the active ingredient in the pellets, again according to the manufacturer’s spec sheets, is a powder called PAVA:
“… pelargonic acid vanillylamide (PAVA), a synthetic capsaicinoid …”
Note: synthetic; that means produced by a chemical process.
Further:
“PAVA primarily affects the eyes, causing closure and severe pain. The pain to the eyes is reported to be greater than that caused by CS.”
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 8:09 pm“Context they said:’
He’s lying, narciso
Davethulhu (d85c93) — 6/7/2020 @ 8:17 pmCDC: 19% Of Americans Have Put Bleach On Food To Kill Coronavirus, How Instead To Keep Food Clean
……
……..[A]ccording to survey results just published in the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), 39% of the Americans surveyed have done high-risk things with household cleaners in attempts to stay safe from the Covid-19 coronavirus. That’s based on a web-based survey administered to a nationally-representative sample of 502 adults on May 4. Yeah, when people encourage you to take risks in life, this is probably not what they mean.
These high-risk activities included drinking or gargling diluted bleach solutions, soapy water, and other cleaning and disinfectant solutions, which 4% of the survey respondents said they have done. It also including trying to clean their hands or skin (18%) or misting their bodies (10%) with household cleaning and disinfectant products. There was also the 6% that have inhaled the vapors of such products, even though such products are not bacon or fresh-baked cookies.These are all no-no’s, as in “noooooo.”
But the most common high-risk thing to do was applying bleach to food items such as fruits and vegetables, which 19% did. Umm, don’t do this. Your food isn’t a bathroom tile. You can’t just apply bleach to food and then expect to wipe it off completely. Anything that you put on food could potentially seep into the food and eventually make it into your mouth, assuming that’s where you end up putting your food.
……..
“I see the disinfectant that knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? As you see, it gets in the lungs, it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it would be interesting to check that.”
Apparently some have taken Trump seriously.
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 8:17 pm…… conditions this election are as volatile as any since 1860……
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/7/2020 @ 8:22 pmEven after everything that’s happened so far, Trump’s approval and presidential standing haven’t moved an inch, consistently in the 40-43% range. He’s reached his peak.
One of the articles I read last week was about the Dem side of the Senate elections and the observation was that in almost all of the Dem primaries, if there was a far left candidate and a centrist, the Dem voters chose the centrist. It isn’t really a firebrand year for firebrand policy. Voters want calm waters again.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 8:27 pmWhere did you find that? It’s the opposite of true.
Chemical:A chemical is any substance consisting of matter. This includes any liquid, solid, or gas. A chemical is any pure substance (an element) or any mixture (a solution, compound, or gas). They can either occur naturally or can be created artificially.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 8:34 pmI wish I could get excited about polling numbers, but conditions this election are as volatile as any since 1860.
I’d say 1980; 1860 was just too weird. In 1980, Reagan was trailing until about October (and was 6 points down in some polls even then), but won 51-41-6 (Anderson).
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:05 pmThe common definition of “Chemical”: a substance produced by or used in a chemical process.
You had me at “substance.”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:06 pmThe Democrats are going to be frantically trying new ways to crater the economy come August.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:08 pm@87 Unlikely. All they need to do is stand back and let Trump keep stepping on his own dangle.
Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:14 pmThat’s why the Dems are proposing more stimulus, I guess.
To crater the economy.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:36 pmJERRY DUNLEAVY
@JerryDunleavy
Cotton condemned “revolting moral equivalence of rioters & looters to peaceful law-abiding protesters” & distinguished between majority peaceful protesters & “bands of miscreants.” NYT claimed he called for “military to suppress protests” & “military force against protesters.”
https://twitter.com/JerryDunleavy/status/1269744963547521028?s=20
__ _
DeadCenter
@DeadCenter19
·
NYT and the rest of MSM do this to anyone they want to destroy. Their sheep just follow and destroy. They’ve been doing to people for years and people got tired of it and voted for trump. Now they blame all the “rednecks” for trump winning instead of looking in the mirror
__ _
Destructive Chemistry
harkin (d8e40a) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:38 pm@DestructiveChem
·
It’s almost like this mob of NYT staff didn’t actually *read* the op-ed they went nuts over
__ _
That’s why the Dems are proposing more stimulus, I guess.
To crater the economy.
If “Stimulus” = shore up pension funds.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:48 pmNot an accurate description of the House bill.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 9:56 pmNot an accurate description of the House bill.
But an accurate description of why the Dems want it.
beer ‘n pretzels (29e776) — 6/7/2020 @ 10:01 pmThe Dems still want a stimulus because they are expecting the economy to stay tanked after Covid. This is, in part, because they are economic illiterates who think people like jumping through their hoops rather than following their own desires, but also because they NEED to to stay tanked and the surest path to that is to repeat everything Obama did.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/7/2020 @ 10:12 pmdoublethink
Dave (1bb933) — 6/7/2020 @ 10:24 pm[ˈdəbəlˌTHiNGk]
NOUN
the acceptance of or mental capacity to accept contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination.
Rep. Amash will introduce a bill that would end qualified immunity on Monday. It’s cosponsored by Rep. Pressley, and as of Friday sixteen other Democrats have cosigned the bill.
https://reason.com/2020/06/06/justin-amash-ayanna-pressley-end-police-qualified-immunity-where-are-the-republicans/
Not one Republican has expressed support for the bill. Instead, Pres. Trump repeatedly calls for police to “dominate” protesters. Sen. Cotton writes an op-ed about using the military against civilians. AG Barr lies about the riot gear used to forcibly remove peaceful protesters from a park before curfew, to clear a path for Trump to walk so he could further desecrate a historical church for a sacrilegious photo-op.
The disconnect here is incredible. Don’t these clowns see what is going on across the country and indeed around the world? Protests against police brutality and racial inequality and injustice.
Ending qualified immunity is a small step in the right direction. The giant leap would be to break up the police unions. No meaningful reform is possible without breaking up the unions, because they do more to defend police misconduct than to ensure proper police conduct, hiring and training.
Now there’s this movement to defund police departments, which is idiocy. I respect the police. In fact, every time I meet an officer or deputy, I always say, “Some of us appreciate your service.” I abhor any violence committed against the police. However, serious reform is needed. Too many times the system, as currently constructed, had defended, and thereby condoned, bad policing, which casts a pall over good policing. That has to come to an end.
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 6/8/2020 @ 3:58 am@85-
Rip Murdock (f56c1e) — 6/8/2020 @ 4:00 amDonald Trump is no Ronald Reagan.
He is not even Ronald McDonald.
nk (1d9030) — 6/8/2020 @ 5:16 amColonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/7/2020 @ 8:34 pm
I guess “the cops used things consisting of matter to disperse the crowd” really doesn’t have the same zing.
The word “chemical” was used to juice the story and the fight over terms just draws attention to how the story, and using it to political advantage, is where the value is.
I’m still wondering how the usual suspects can be so confident any of this plays against Trump.
frosty (f27e97) — 6/8/2020 @ 6:36 amgo on, with that civility
https://www.breitbart.com/crime/2020/06/07/manhattan-da-declines-to-prosecute-alleged-st-patricks-cathedral-vandal/
narciso (7404b5) — 6/8/2020 @ 6:50 amfrosty, I think everyone sane is working on the basis that if none of this plays against Trump then the country is screwed.
There was a possibility a Trump term 2 could have just been an extension of the clown show but with how things are now if he still gets re-elected he will go full on Putin. Why wouldn’t he?
Bob (c3aeec) — 6/8/2020 @ 6:50 amGet back to me when the school system is reformed so they don’t keep producing Maoist and Leninist devotees.
NJRob (4d595c) — 6/8/2020 @ 6:58 amWell, a peaceful protest was dispersed with tear gas so he could do a photo op. Seems to make him look weak and fearful.
Time123 (52fb0e) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:02 amIt’s amazing how time and again information that comes from this administration is worthless. Almost nothing they say can be relied upon. There’s an element of that in every politicians statement but the Trump admin is by far the weakest I’ve seen in this regard.
Time123 (52fb0e) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:14 amPepper spray:
It is a chemical, MJN1957, and a chemical process.
DRJ (15874d) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:16 amTrump is weak and fearful.
Which is why I’m not so sure photo op was the main reason for the violence against the protesters. I strongly suspect it was payback for having Trump pooping his pants in his bunker the night before. I also suspect that the “pepper balls” versus “tear gas” is a welcome distraction to change the subject away from the absence of the other kind of balls.
nk (1d9030) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:16 amAndrew Cuomo
@NYGovCuomo
·
We did the impossible.
On Monday NYC will open phase one.
We didn’t just flatten the curve — we crushed it. #NYTough
__ _
Great White Shark Trading LLC
@SharkTankTrader
·
the only thing Cuomo crushed is the nursing home population of New York.
__ _
Dan Gainor
@dangainor
·
How many nursing home victims’ last words were “I can’t breathe”?
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Uncensored View
harkin (d8e40a) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:17 am@view_uncensored
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It’s been open for a week for rioters and looters
_
Security cameras and video cameras had to be everywhere. All around the White House, the park, as well as individual cell phones and TV cameras. I have not seen any video of unruly protesters previous to the police attack. The video I did see? I saw the police rough up the Australian reporter. I did see some kind of tear gas or spray. I saw batons being used against protesters. The helicopter’s low flight.
As for the pepper-ball vs. tear gas debate. I have been in the vicinity of a tiny bit of pepper spray. No, it wasn’t aimed at me. Just a demonstration of it’s effectiveness. Nasty stuff.
And another thing…. Barr seemed to be enjoying his tough guy act that night.
noel (4d3313) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:27 amTime123 (52fb0e) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:02 am
How much of how that “seems” is bias? We can play the game where you cite something else he could have done differently that wouldn’t have made him look like the picture you’ve already formed but strangely this is somehow always the case. How much of that bias is being confirmed by the media, both social and otherwise? A lot of time and effort hasn’t gone into reenforcing that bias.
Just to be clear, I’m not saying it made him look strong. I’m just questioning the confidence.
frosty (f27e97) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:28 ammr. president donald trump, who is donald on his birth certificate because his mother was still sedated when she tried to say “don’t tell my husband” to the maternity nurse, knows his audience
all he needs is to give them something, anything, that they can hang their hat on but lack the brains to invent by themselves
they’ll grab it and cling on to it like a dog to a bone
don’t try to take a bone away from a dog, friends
just don’t
nk (1d9030) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:30 amI’m not interested in the game you site, don’t think you are either.
It’s subjective, it’s how it looked to me; weak, fearful, and trying to overcompensate. Personally when i see someone overcompensating I feel like it sends the opposite message. But that’s me. YMMV
How did it look to you? Similar to how I saw it? An act of strength? No message on strength/courage or weakness/fear?
Time123 (441f53) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:39 amNope, frosty. You know better. The words “no tear gas” were used. Pepper was used and it seemed basically the same, so people felt “no tear gas” was a lie, because it basically was. The defense of Trump is quibbling over what a chemical is. The juicy story was live where Team Trump gassed that reporter like an idiot.
Dustin (d59cff) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:48 am54. Nic (896fdf) — 6/7/2020 @ 4:41 pm
Well, that’s not what they’re talking about.
They’re talking about “community policing” which means a corrupt, irresponsible police force that did not cover white areas (because black lives don’t matter but white lives do) Or in other words, private police.
Who won’t have any more rights to use force than every other citizen. But who might call for backup from some still existing force.
There will be another police force, just not run by the city, at least in the richer areas of town. That could be run by Hennepin County…
https://www.hennepinsheriff.org/
…. or by the state of Minnesota.
The city of Minneapolis will not pay for this, or contribute one dime.
New taxes will have to be imposed at the county level.
Taxes will not be lowered in Minneapolis – they’ll be used for other things, or to compensate for the recession. since the population of Minneapolis is probably less than the population of the rest of Hennepin County, the sheriff’s office won’t be expanded sufficiently to properly cover Minneapolis. They’ll rely mostly on the private police forces.
This “police force” will be small, and only able to deal with extremely high priority matters – which won’t be black on black crime, or stealing from small local stores.
As for the private police: In the high value commercial or middle class areas, this will be policing by highly paid and well trained security guards.
In the poorer black areas, this will be policing by organized crime, i.e. drug dealers or thieves, who will tax businesses for it. Not “tax” in quotes, but a fully legal tax, paid by anyone who joins voluntarily (those who do not join will not get any protection, and it would be shame if anything happened to it or it became a free for all for thieves.) It will not be considered extortion. But one sort of condition will be that almost no crimes get reported to regular law enforcement. Anyone who does will have to explain their reason and be excused. Or not.
The mayor is opposed to this, and got berated by Black Lives Matter for not endorsing it, (like as if he could appease them) but there’s a veto proof majority on the city council for this.
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:52 am>>commonly known as capsaicin
In the old days police used the chemical Dihydrogen Monoxide on protestors.
Using chemicals on anyone is wrong.
BillPasadena (e482e2) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:56 amGawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 6/8/2020 @ 3:58 am
Barr wasn’t actually making the decisions, and he didn’t give the order. He had expected the area be cleared before. He knew the president intended to walk outside, but he, and maybe some of the others walking with Trump, didn’t know where the president wanted to go or what he wanted to do. It turned out that Trump wanted to do was just nothing. Not even make a speech.
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:02 amhttps://townhall.com/columnists/ryanbomberger/2020/06/05/top-10-reasons-i-reject-the-blm-n2570105
Sammy’s correct about the BLM group. The creator’s racist manifesto says it all .
https://m4bl.org/policy-platforms/
NJRob (4d595c) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:09 am65. nk (1d9030) — 6/7/2020 @ 5:23 pm
And very prosperous businesses.
That is a very serious proposal in Minneapolis
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/us/minneapolis-police-abolish.html
They citre, of course, situations where that makes sense. It is probably not good to call police on emotionally disturbed persons, who may, for example, confiscate keys that belong to somebody else, and then give the rightful owner a hard time in getting them back. (In Chicago, they shoot. Like that case where the family sent a woman to greet the police, and she got shot dead.)
But Austin, Texas and Eugene, Oregon still have police.
But they go further:
That;s easy enough, when the people who might create disturbances are engaging in crowd control.
More:
They argued it was immoral. Is she arguing police, by their very nature, are immoral?
Comrades, American proles are like little children. They want this, they want that, they want it shiny, they want it now. Humor them, play along with them, and soon they will forget it and turn their attention to something else.
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:18 amTime123 (441f53) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:39 am
I didn’t ascribe much to it either way. I don’t think staying in the bunker was a good look. Leaving DC also wouldn’t look good. Having a church burn within walking distance of the WH isn’t something that should be ignored. It could have been handled better and it could have been handled worse.
I’m much more interested in the reaction and the counter-reaction, etc. The “weak” narrative only works with people who’ve already made up their mind. If you already hate Trump dispersing the crowd at all means he’s weak and if you already love Trump it wouldn’t have mattered if they had used mustard gas. I don’t think many people in the middle are moved one way or the other by the “what’s a chemical” PSAs.
frosty (f27e97) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:24 am115 Oops. The last paragraph is from nk @65. I don’t agree. I don’t even understand it.
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:25 am@98
This.
It’s the usual game to frame something done by your political opponent in the most disingenuously worse way possible.
whembly (51f28e) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:32 amBarr gave the directive. He’s a lying sack of sh*t.
Paul Montagu (eb237d) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:40 am114. The official platform does not call for abolishing police departments. (Maybe it is a bit out of date)
It calls for reducing the amount of money devoted to police. It calls for “accountability” for murder, not just of individual police officers, but entire police departments, by which they mean they have to make an official apology and give money (and they’ll tell them whom to give it to, itis pretty clear)
Also, an end to the “wars against Black people.”
An end to private police, prisons, jails, probation, parole, food phone and all other criminal justice related services. I think private food and phone means special monopoly arrangements for prisoners.
(“self-policing” is apparently not to be considered private police, perhaps because they have no legal privileges)
An end to all jails, detention centers, youth facilities and prisons as we know them, with the ultimate goal of abolishing cages of any kind altogether.
They’re also against capital punishment, by the way.
No police in schools, or arrests of students in schools, and an end to “punitive school discipline practices.”
An end to money bail, mandatory fines, fees, court surcharges and “defendant funded” court proceedings. (which exist in certain states)
An end to the use of past criminal history to determine eligibility for housing, education, licenses, voting, loans, employment, etc.
An end to the use of technologies like IMSI catchers, drones, body cameras, and predictive policing software.
Repeal of the 1996 crime and immigration bills, and an end to all deportations, immigrant detention, and Immigration and Custom Enforcement (ICE) raids, because some of the immigrants are black. Also mandated legal representation in immigration court. But for what, since there won’t be any deportation proceedings? Naturalization disputes?
Also an end to the war against trans, queer and gender nonconforming people, because some of them are black, too.
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:54 amTime123 (441f53) — 6/8/2020 @ 7:39 am
Speaking of strength, I’ve also seen some reports of police and white people washing the feet of black faith leaders. I think this should be encouraged. It seems like something the left would be sure to misinterpret but it’s a path to peace and reconcillation.
frosty (f27e97) — 6/8/2020 @ 8:57 am#116 and #118 —
Guys, the following is at best unitntentional gaslighting:
It sometimes helps to read the post and not just the comments on the post. The reason the word “chemical” is being used is because Barr used it on Meet the Press. The original false denial was whether “tear gas” was used.
I don’t know why Trump lies and why his surrogates lie and whether one more lie makes any difference at all. But surely there is value in pointing out obvious continuous falsehoods?
Appalled (1a17de) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:01 am119. He didn’t tell them how to do it, and they didn’t tell him how they were going to do it. The New York Times also reported a lot of confusion. His trip to the church was a more moderate alternative to some other idea Trump had had.
Now this is what Barr said:
https://www.voanews.com/usa/nation-turmoil-george-floyd-protests/barr-defends-decision-remove-protesters-near-white-house
First he said there was no connection between the trip and the clearing of the protesters. The way to understand that is that the proposal to take the stroll was put on the agenda, because Ivanka Trump (who suggested it, and brought the Bible) thought the protesters were going to be cleared away anyway. But they weren’t by the time Trump was getting ready to pay his visit!
I think they managed to delay him somewhat by having him give a speech in the Rose Garden.
The removal was rushed so that they wouldn’t have to tell the president it wasn’t safe for him to go that way.
Barr also did not get involved in the tactical decisions. The legal basis for it, which nobody is challenging, was that the demonstrators didn’t have a right to assemble there and Trump had a right to go there.
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:12 amOh it’s definitely intentional. I don’t see the point either.
Dustin (d59cff) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:16 amHere’s another incredible quote from Barr yesterday:
Sammy, the problem here is that you’re taking the AG’s word at face value.
Paul Montagu (eb237d) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:28 am@122
It’s all pedantry and an exercise to frame it in the worse way possible.
Rubber balls filled with capsaicin isn’t the same as launching tear gas canisters. The folks that use it differentiate between the two. The former is more targeted crowd control and the latter is meant for wide-spread crowd control. I was minutes from Ferguson when it blew up and the police were criticized for using tear gas as a CHEMICAL WEAPON OF WAR.
It’s all about the framing…
Stop it.
I don’t know why both sides are agitated over this as that protest turned violent. Those are normal tools to manage an unruly crowd. Hell… it happens nearly every week in Portland, OR!
Here’s the point:
You may think this photo op is ridiculous or what not, but what shouldn’t be in dispute is that this was NOT a peaceful protest. So, crowd control had to be used to break up the rioters.
If you’re disputing that this was a peaceful protest, we don’t have much to discuss as our reaction to the police using force here would be completely different.
whembly (51f28e) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:31 amIt is pedantry, but it’s the Trump guys worried about the ‘chemical’ distinction. You and Frosty pretended the opposite to defend Trump. No one cares if the gas burning the eyes and breathing of the reporters and protesters was a natural pepper capcaisin or CS gas. That is not the part that matters. That they used either substance against peaceful people to give Trump a photo op is embarrassing. Patterico posted that Australian journalist. If you watched it you know Trump hurt the country with this.
LOL
Dustin (d59cff) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:40 amI still haven’t seen one critic cite a concrete factual error in Cotton’s op-ed.
I just read it and cannot find fault. It may be a bit insensitive, but so is the IRS.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:41 amThe pepper balls are probably worse for those hit, so it’s merely a question of dispersal quantity. The pepper is precise, the CS is easier to spread widely.
I’ve been exposed to both and CS is worse for me, but the vast, vast majority of people in my academy thought the pepper was worse.
Dustin (d59cff) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:41 amTrue, we don’t agree because there were dozens of hours of video of that protest, at the time, and it was not violent, and it was not a riot. So your claim of it being so is not true.
There was a riot there…on a different day, not the day when Barr trotted out there at 6:08PM and ordered the square to be cleared, before any curfew was in place, because they had a schedule to keep for the TeeVee. Do you think Barr would have trotted his pansy @$$ out there if there was a riot going on?
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:47 amI didn’t ascribe much to it either way. That’s reasonable.
I think this made him look weak like some of the stuff Obama did made him look full of himself and some of the stuff W did made him look incurious. Not the biggest deal in the world in isolation.
The argument about the technical terms for what substance was used seems silly to me, If you say “The Trump administration dispersed a crowd of peaceful protesters with Tear Gas/Pepper Balls/Pepper Spray so that he could do a photo op.” I don’t see a very large difference based on what was used. It was the wrong thing to do and their initial statements about it weren’t accurate. Their follow up statements haven’t brought clarity. They’ve brought a clintonesque argument about nomenclature that gives us the opportunity to argue about what the definition of ‘is’ is and toss accusations of dishonesty around.
Time123 (441f53) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:06 am129
What if you were it by the CS canisters? That’d be worse… (inserts that Harley Quinn clip using the confetti canister launcher inside the police dept). 😉
Not sure if I was exposed to CS (I’m assuming you meant “tear gas”)… but the smoke from the smoke grenade was really knarly. I wanted to move away from that smoke as fast as possible.
My brother-in-law is in the force and he hated the pepper balls. It takes several rinsing treatments to get it out, but it’s pretty effective too. Which is why its the “go to” tool in those scenarios.
whembly (51f28e) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:06 amI’m not asserting that all these protests have been peaceful or that rioting hasn’t happened. But I haven’t seen evidence that the protest in the park could fairly be called a riot. I have seen several conservative writers (such as Tim Cary) describe it as peaceful.
Time123 (441f53) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:10 am@130 Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/8/2020 @ 9:47 am
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, numerous officers were sent to the hospital.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, several rioters tried to chip at the concrete on the street to have something to throw.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, one rioter tried to take an officer’s holstered firearm.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, several rioters tried to take the officer’s shields.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, folks ignored warnings to disperse that was announced three times on bullhorn.
So. No. You’re wrong there. It was peaceful in the beginning, but at some point (after the announcement to disperse) the crowd turned violent.
whembly (51f28e) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:13 am125.
– Attorney General Bill Barr.
He qualifies that – it could have a governmental motive.
It’s not automatically a political act. Can you argue with that?
Are you saying he;s lying: He does necessarily view it as apolitical act?
Here’s the story of how this thing happened:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/02/us/politics/trump-walk-lafayette-square.html
It seems to be clear , if you think about it, and attach any value at all to Bill Barr;s words, that the pemise behind this idea of walking to the church was that Lafayette Square was going to be cleared of demonstarators, for other reasos
The decision to clear the demonstrators came first, and the decision for the president to walk there came later, and not the other way around.
Because nobody thought there was any kind of a deadline for that.
But that the demonstrators would soon be gone from the site had been baked into the White House’s assessment of the situation. Now their discussion about what to do to counteract this impression of Trump hiding was mainly political.
It had been assumed they would not be there, but it hadn’t happened.
And so:
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:13 am@133
What would you call ignoring dispersal order, throwing things at LEO, trying to take a LEO’s holstered firearm, yanking the LEO’s riot shield?? Whatever that definition you want to use, you certainly shouldn’t use the word “peaceful”.
whembly (51f28e) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:16 am“On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, numerous officers were sent to the hospital.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, several rioters tried to chip at the concrete on the street to have something to throw.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, one rioter tried to take an officer’s holstered firearm.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, several rioters tried to take the officer’s shields.
On that day, while clearing out Lafayette Square, folks ignored warnings to disperse that was announced three times on bullhorn.
So. No. You’re wrong there. It was peaceful in the beginning, but at some point (after the announcement to disperse) the crowd turned violent.”
What’s your source for this?
Davethulhu (b65cad) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:24 am“It’s not automatically a political act. Can you argue with that?
Are you saying he;s lying: He does necessarily view it as apolitical act?”
I’ll say it. Barr is lying.
Davethulhu (b65cad) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:24 amAgain, you’re taking a dishonest man’s word at face value, Sammy, and makes me wonder why.
Paul Montagu (eb237d) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:31 amWhat, were they transporting the defenseless people they had just gassed, grenaded, beaten or trampled?
Dave (1bb933) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:31 amMy understanding is that those things happened after they started dispersing the part with gas and riot troops. I’ve also seen reporting that the announcement weren’t clearly head, or publicized ahead of time.
I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize a protest as ‘violent’ when the violence occurs after you fire gas the crowd and have troops march in with riot shields without sufficient warning. Multiple witnesses have said they didn’t hear an order to disperse.
I hold individuals accountable for things they’ve done, so I’m not letting nay of the people who did the things you listed off the hook, and I hope they got arrested. I also easily believe those things happened. But if the protest was generally peaceful before they tried to forcibly disperse without warning them I’m not calling it a violent protest.
Time123 (441f53) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:32 amYes, after the announcement, and after the headfirst charging into the square. After, subsequent to, following on, you know AFTER.
This isn’t semantics, you’re just lying.
Also, you’re lying about the other things too, just stacking lies doesn’t change reality.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:35 amDavethulhu (b65cad) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:24 am
Lying about whether you can argue that the motive was not political?
Barr didn’t say the reason for the excursion wasn’t political. He said it wasn’t necessarily political. Didn’t have to be. (you could come up with a governmental purpose, or you could say that the political purpose was really governmental)
That’s all he said.
I think Barr said that for legal reasons.
Otherwise the president’s use of government police and the Secret Service might be considered an expenditure for which the campaign should reimburse the government.
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:46 amSF: He qualifies that – it could have a governmental motive.
Paul Montagu (eb237d) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:31 am
I generally do, when I don;t think the person is that dishoonest, and here I am describing what the plain meaning of his words are.
It;s also true that thecrowd was not dispersed in order for Trump to take his walk. Trump’s walk was advocated by Ivanka Trump on the premise that the demonstrators would be gone because they were going to be cleared for safety reasons.
Now when Barr saw it hadn’t happened by the time the president was getting ready to go, hr ordered them cleared pronto.
Otherwise:
A) Trump might have stopped listening to the people who advised him to do that and maybe would
have reverted to ordering the 82nd airborne into the streets of Washington, D.C.
OR
B) Ordered some even tougher measures to get rid of them.
OR
C) Decided to go ahead anyway, against the advice of the Secret Service, telling them to find a way to get him to the church?
OR
D) What else?
CANCEL OR POSTPONE??
Sammy Finkelman (22cc00) — 6/8/2020 @ 10:57 am