Patterico's Pontifications

Clearly the definition of “destroyed” is up for grabs.

Dana (0feb77) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:18 pm

He can’t be all that wealthy if he personally shops at a department store for a toaster oven.

nk (1d9030) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:24 pm

I looked it up. He’s worth around $3.5 million.

Dana (0feb77) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:26 pm

If it’s an old school mall anchor department store (e.g. Kohls, Macys or Sears, the only ones that come to mind that sell toasters ), he should be H.A.A.P.I.S. that the store 1. has not gone out of business, 2. Is open to inbound customer traffic and 3. found some make work for likely redundant staff.

urbanleftbehind (cb72a8) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:28 pm

Heh. I’m thinking the opposite of you, nk. I was thinking it was a bit high-brow to buy a toaster at a department store (like Macy’s?), given that most people seem to go to Wal-Mart or Lowes for small appliances.

Dana (0feb77) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:29 pm

urbanleftbehind,

He should be grateful he has the dough to shell out for a new toaster, when so many don’t even have that now.

Dana (0feb77) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:30 pm

@5. ‘Macy’s Basement’ in the city; where toasters and small kitcen appliances are a chic buy.

DCSCA (797bc0) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:32 pm

My old and new employers have toaster ovens (JCPenney and Dillard’s). Dillard’s is probably more his style.

Sales associates should lecture customers, ever. But given the attitude shown in his tweets, “lecture” may not be an accurate description.

Here’s his latest tweet, from about 9 PM tonight by Google time.

The people allowed the Democrats to strip away their rights. They allowed the government to close our businesses and our churches. They willingly gave up the right to go to a park or to plant a garden or to visit a barbershop. The people decided to sacrifice their freedom.

Kishnevi (c7baf0) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:53 pm

@7, Hes probably codo enough to hit the Wednesday morning Doorbusters.

urbanleftbehind (cb72a8) — 5/8/2020 @ 6:56 pm

RIP Roy Horn — of Siegfried & Roy fame.

Covid-19 Victim; 75.

‘What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.’

DCSCA (797bc0) — 5/8/2020 @ 7:06 pm

The trolley is barreling down the track towards five grandmothers. You can pull the switch and redirect it so that it kills no one. But you have to wear a mask to buy a toaster oven. What do you do?

https://twitter.com/scottjshapiro/status/1258918921752764421

Davethulhu (a122fb) — 5/8/2020 @ 7:17 pm

Geez, who buys stuff other than perishables in meatspace anymore?

Overnight or same day delivery FTW.

Dave (1bb933) — 5/8/2020 @ 7:19 pm

I remember when pushing grandma’s wheelchair over the cliff was a dishonest Dem scare tactic.

Now it’s a GOP talking point.

Dave (1bb933) — 5/8/2020 @ 7:22 pm

If was a Jogger

I’d Jog in the morning

I’d Jog in the evening

All over this land!

I’d Jog away from danger

I’d Jog away from warnings

I’d Jog with a framing hammer

For all my Fellow Joggers

All over this land!

Pinandpuller (fc938c) — 5/8/2020 @ 7:35 pm

12, Starnes thinks Geraldo and Charles Payne might be package pirates.

urbanleftbehind (cb72a8) — 5/8/2020 @ 7:44 pm

Wow, proofread much? Teach me to start song parodies at traffic lights.

Pinandpuller (fc938c) — 5/8/2020 @ 7:50 pm

Should have gone to Walmart. More toasters, too.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/8/2020 @ 8:03 pm

I looked it up. He’s worth around $3.5 million.

Why didn’t he send a servant to get him one?

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/8/2020 @ 8:04 pm

I was thinking it was a bit high-brow to buy a toaster at a department store

A bit antiquated, perhaps. I can’t remember the last time I was IN a department store, unless you count Walmart or Target.

And, to be fair, stores like that attract technically-declined septuagenarians, so perhaps the rules make sense there. Not a lot of 20yos.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/8/2020 @ 8:07 pm

Because then wouldn’t have been able to whine about being a little inconvenienced.

Dana (0feb77) — 5/8/2020 @ 8:08 pm

Geez, who buys stuff other than perishables in meatspace anymore?

So, I’m in the middle of cooking 6 pounds of taco meat and realize I need a much bigger pan, but it’s 10PM. Walmart to the rescue.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/8/2020 @ 8:09 pm

What a whiny headline about the rich white guy. When did the Huffington Post writers start writing the headlines here?

Lazlo Toth (cbb623) — 5/8/2020 @ 8:38 pm

He was fired from fox…profit, all rich guys scrounge around for toasters.

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/8/2020 @ 8:53 pm

^Heartfelt sitcom special character entrance applause.

urbanleftbehind (cb72a8) — 5/8/2020 @ 9:03 pm

Why is walmart taco bell, does it have soecial inmunity what of the hundreds of other stores they dont matter?

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/8/2020 @ 9:15 pm

Hey, Narciso, long time no read. Hope you are doing well.

Colliente (05736f) — 5/8/2020 @ 9:20 pm

I was yelled at by another customer for going the wrong way down a one way aisle at Safeway. Never mind the fact that I don’t look at the floor when I shop for groceries or that I would have to travel up a crowded aisle to go the “right way” down the empty aisle where she chased after me. . . and I still didn’t find flour. . .

Syllabucks (97c12d) — 5/8/2020 @ 10:25 pm

22. About the same time fear and ignorance became the basis for government policy.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/8/2020 @ 11:17 pm

urbanleftbehind (cb72a8) — 5/8/2020 @ 9:03 pm

Everyone: ~~Norm!~~ Narciso!

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/8/2020 @ 9:15 pm

Long time no read, Narciso! Welcome back to the comments. I’m sure you’ve been lurking.

felipe (023cc9) — 5/8/2020 @ 11:18 pm

From the mouths of babes.

felipe (023cc9) — 5/8/2020 @ 11:37 pm

Why is walmart taco bell, does it have soecial inmunity what of the hundreds of other stores they dont matter?

Because it is a grocery and a pharmacy. Sure, Whitmer made them rope off the clothing and appliances section out of some insane idea of fairness, but she couldn’t stop packages from Amazon. I bet she checked.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/8/2020 @ 11:42 pm

And welcome back, Narciso! I’ve missed parsing your comments.

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/8/2020 @ 11:43 pm

taco bell

Reference to Demolition Man?

Kevin M (ab1c11) — 5/8/2020 @ 11:44 pm

Indeed prophetic.

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:24 am

Well why didn’t he buy a toaster, then, having gone to all the trouble of going to a department store to get one? If he got irritated and left it’s his own darn fault.

Nic (896fdf) — 5/9/2020 @ 1:55 am

Aloha Pinandpuller and narciso

mg (8cbc69) — 5/9/2020 @ 2:28 am

We’ve flattened the curve, yet stores are getting even MORE strict. Its absurd. We have too many Mayors and County Health bureaucrats on power trip. Its same that everyone is just taking it, but then that’s what Democrats do. They fall in line and clap for Comrade Stalin. The only get rebellious when its a Republican in power, and they’re told to.

rcocean (1a839e) — 5/9/2020 @ 4:50 am

The beaches on the West Coast should be opened NOW and so should the parks. The amount of CV being spread by people walking around in the sunshine and open air is minuscule. It never made sense. I must say I enjoy the free hand sanitizer and one-way aisle though.

rcocean (1a839e) — 5/9/2020 @ 4:52 am

How about neil ferguson and his chickadee, social distancing indeed.

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/9/2020 @ 5:06 am

39… that’s the effing he gets for the effing he got.

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/9/2020 @ 5:42 am

Whose being screwed though
https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1259100635783454720

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/9/2020 @ 5:45 am

I love the whining and blowing of snot bubbles by the babies who can’t do as they damn well please, when they please.

Until you own a store, don’t bitch and moan about what the owners of the store feel has to be done.

Until you are elected to a state or local government and are responsible for the health of tens, hundreds, or thousands of people, just follow the law. You can protest as you think appropriate. You can even practice REAL civil disobedience. Just understand that it was never free, and you’d best be prepared to eat the consequences.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:16 am

We’ve flattened the curve,

You have? Where? I admire the way you use lies as predicates, as though they were established facts, rcocean. Did you ever work in the media, maybe writing interview questions for Katie Couric?

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:20 am

43. There is not a place in America, at least as far as I’m aware, that hospitals have been “overwhelmed.” Please enlighten me as to just where they are if indeed there are any. If we didn’t “flatten the curve,” then the need for social distancing was one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated in my lifetime. If we did flatten the curve, I’m sure the same question on my mind is on a lot of people’s: How much longer?

Gryph (08c844) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:23 am

From a friend of mine:

My wife’s business was shut down by the state of Pennsylvania. Her therapists and other workers deliberately had their jobs taken away. They were declared “non essential”. Is that like a “basket of deplorables” in Newspeak? Who the hell gets to say that another American doing their job is “non essential”? My wife is losing $4000 a week income and paying out $35000 per month fixed expenses (rent, electric, water, pest control, CAM, insurance, telephone and more). She committed no crime. She received no trial. Her entire business at this point has been ERASED!

We discussed this last night and have decided in order to stop the bleeding she will file chapter 7 bankruptcy on Monday and end the torture. She became an American citizen just in time to be fuked by America. On January 1, 2020 she had a ladies day spa valued at around $1.5 million and the state ERASED it without compensation, due process, equal justice under law or anything but contempt. The three partners put several hundred thousand dollars into building, decorating, stocking and advertising this business and this was to be their break even moment when they recouped their original investments and started actually making money. So much for that.

As it happens, the author is well off, so he and his wife will be fine, personally. The people she employed? Not so much.

Average hourly waged soared 7.9% in April, among all of the job losses, which tells us that the jobs which were lost were mostly the lower paying jobs.

It’s all well and good to tell us about the people who are weathering this crisis just fine being kind of pricks about it, but these are the stories we need to be telling.

The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:31 am

There is not a place in America, at least as far as I’m aware, that hospitals have been “overwhelmed.”

Is that your definition of flattening the curve? I thought it was the number of new cases not going up, staying at just so many a day. They’re not. There are more every day than there were the day before.

I don’t even ….

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:35 am

Gryph wrote:

There is not a place in America, at least as far as I’m aware, that hospitals have been “overwhelmed.”

There are probably a few hospitals in urban areas which have been very busy, though even in New York City the USNS Comfort was sent, and then departed without treating anybody, because the NYC hospitals were able to handle the load.

Here in the Bluegrass State, the Appalachian Regional Hospitals — a chain of 13 small hospitals — laid off 500 people, because with Reichsstatthalter Beshear’s order banning ‘elective’ surgeries, ARH simply didn’t have the patient business to keep all of the beds open. In the hospital where my darling bride works — not an ARH facility — patient census has been down, and furloughs have been frequent, though she is paid for the days she is furloughed. Some weeks she gets her normal three days, other weeks she gets only two.

The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:37 am

How much longer?

For who? For people responsible for a business, trying to strike a balance between operating and responsibility to customers and employees, maybe a lot longer.

For state and local governments, most are making moves to open up. Some are being reckless, others more responsible. There may be some who are moving too slow, but I’m not aware of them. If they’re adhering to the T-rumpian guidelines, they are not moving too slow.

For the local sandwich slinger in Rooster Poot, EVER was too long.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:39 am

Ragspierre wrote:

Until you are elected to a state or local government and are responsible for the health of tens, hundreds, or thousands of people, just follow the law. You can protest as you think appropriate. You can even practice REAL civil disobedience. Just understand that it was never free, and you’d best be prepared to eat the consequences.

The problem with Shelley Luther is that there was only one of her. We need 10,000 Shelley Luthers, 100,000 Shelley Luthers, standing up for their rights.

The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:40 am

The massage parlor (across from the Thai restaurant second door east of the alley) on my block is shut down too. I wonder if the girls are providing concierge service on call.

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:40 am

The elites are simply aghast
But they aren’t having to fast
They say, “Well, honey,
We’re still making money,
and this time off is simply a blast!”

The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:43 am

Gosh, Dana, your friend is a liar.

What a shame.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:44 am

The Flu Pandemic in San Francisco was instructive. Wearing masks and social distancing had been successful. New cases were down very considerably.

So, you had your thousands of Shelly Luthers kicking out the jams, and violently refusing to continue the means mandated by the civil authorities to curb the disease.

Naturally, the flue deaths skyrocketed as a result.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:50 am

Our Windy City barrister wrote:

The massage parlor (across from the Thai restaurant second door east of the alley) on my block is shut down too. I wonder if the girls are providing concierge service on call.

Well, we know that Senator Cruz got his hair cut at Shelley Luther’s shop, but he’s been advocating opening up. Meanwhile Oberbürgermeister Lori Lightfoot (NSDAP-Chicago) has threatened to jail people who violate her stay at home orders, but brought in a hairdresser privately to have her own hair done.

Not that it helped, of course: Miss Lightfoot is not, shall we say, conventionally attractive.

I shall chalk it up to nk’s sense of humor, but I think it’s a fail to compare laid off workers to prostitutes.

The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:54 am

I shall chalk it up to nk’s sense of humor, but I think it’s a fail to compare laid off workers to prostitutes.

I think he said massage therapists. Unless your friend was running a den of inequity, she was offering the same services, no?

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:02 am

Gosh, Ragspierre, how do you know he has lied?

Reichsstatthalter Tom Wolf (NSDAP-PA) has ordered the closure of ‘non-essential’ businesses in the Keystone State, and I have several friends there — I lived in Pennsylvania for 15 years — who have lost their jobs.

Even with the construction industry not closed down, I know that the concrete mixer drivers I had before I retired are mostly out of work. In a way, they’re a bit lucky: during the winter, they are always on partial, unemployment, so they had accounts open with unemployment in Pennsylvania. A professional friend of mine, and a local Democratic Party activist, has been laid off, and, last I hears, he was having real problems getting through to unemployment; the system is overwhelmed.

The Dana in Kentucky (408392) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:11 am

WRT Shelly Luther, she was NOT a civil disobedient, but a scofflaw. Two very different things.

She stood in court and before the press and made a special pleading, calling for the law to excuse here because she was a mommy.

It doesn’t work if your cafe or food truck is shut down for health violations and you defy the authorities. Same principle.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:12 am

Her therapists and other workers deliberately had their jobs taken away.

That’s a false statement.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:15 am

No it’s not. It’s either an opinion or a true statement.

Leviticus (6159e1) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:23 am

I think ladies’ tickle parlors are about as non-essential as it gets, myself. Why can’t all those women get their husbands or their boyfriends, the mailman, the pool boy, the gardener, the neighbor, to do it for them?

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:23 am

It’s either an opinion or a true statement.

No. It is a false statement made as factual.

Did the state of Pennsylvania deliberately target these employees and strip them of employment?

Yes or no, please.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:28 am

Ah, the milkman, gone the way of the farrier … was it worth all the other advances women made in the last fifty years? Only our grandmothers could tell us.

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:28 am

Only our grandmothers could tell us.

Better ask them soon.

Dave (1bb933) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:30 am

On January 1, 2020 she had a ladies day spa valued at around $1.5 million and the state ERASED it without compensation, due process, equal justice under law or anything but contempt.

That is another false statement made as fact.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:31 am

Was The Ice Man Cometh double entendre?

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:34 am

The title (The Iceman Cometh) refers to a running gag between Hickey and the dead-enders about coming home after traveling his sales route to find his wife “rolling in the hay with the iceman” (akin to the more contemporary joke about the “milkman”). In reality, he has murdered her. Confessing his crime, he must confront the consequences, including the prospect of execution.

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 7:40 am

Until you own a store, don’t bitch and moan about what the owners of the store feel has to be done.

What an idiotic statement. We tell “Store owners” what do with their stores all the time. Right now, we’re telling many of them to close down. Other things we tell them? How much to pay their employees, what safety laws they have to obey, what hours they can stay open, and a lot of other things.

The losertarian argument that “its their property, they can do what they want” is BS and always has been.

rcocean (1a839e) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:10 am

Usually I don’t respond to trolls, but its a slow news day.

rcocean (1a839e) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:12 am

? My wife is losing $4000 a week income and paying out $35000 per month fixed expenses (rent, electric, water, pest control, CAM, insurance, telephone and more).

If I read that literally, that spa was operating in the red to the tune of about $15,000-$19,000 a month. Perhaps bankruptcy should have been considered earlier.

But there were other ways to deal with this: the PPP program, business interruption insurance, “acts of God” clauses on the leases and contracts, etc.

The real flaw in your argument is the assumption that customers would have continued to come in like normal if there had been no shut down orders. They wouldn’t have. I base that statement on how people were acting before the orders started going into effect.

Kishnevi (a1b7cb) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:16 am

What! an idiot?…

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:17 am

“ Yes or no, please.”

– Ragspierre

Yes or no to your bullsh*t framing of the question?

The state of Pennsylvania took actions that resulted in the closure of this business and the loss of these jobs. Other businesses were allowed to remain open, and the employees of those businesses frequently kept their jobs.

Do you think you are impressing or convincing anyone by framing nuanced issues as a matter of “truth” and “lies”?

Leviticus (69df94) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:19 am

And calling people that you have never met and do not know “liars”?

Leviticus (69df94) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:21 am

Can’t answer the question, which was fairly put. Too bad.

Did the state of Pennsylvania deliberately target these employees and strip them of employment?

That’s what DanaInKY’s friend stated happened, and it is totally false.

What we know has happened is that jobs have been incidentally lost as a result of steps by state and local authorities to protect the public. NOBODY “deliberately” put anybody out of work.

The assertion is false, hyperbolic, and actually silly.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:28 am

For the local sandwich slinger in Rooster Poot, EVER was too long.

My guess is this fellow thinks this is funny. It ain’t.

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:28 am

My guess is this fellow thinks this is funny. It ain’t.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:31 am

lawyers must decide
clown or major in putting
lipstick on a pig

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:35 am

My guess is this fellow thinks THIS is also funny. It ain’t.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:38 am

So it’s clown nose off then…

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:40 am

May I point out that if taking a certain action will inevitably and foreseeably result in X, then that action can be reasonably be describes deliberately resulting in X even if the action was motivated by reasons having no relation to X?

If I give someone a vaccination shot, I am deliberately causing them minor pain, even though the vaccination is given for reasons that are completely laudable and have no relation to the pain.

Kishnevi (a1b7cb) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:41 am

Pierre was into weight lifting…

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=9OVE2_1588957912

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:44 am

Is that your definition of flattening the curve? I thought it was the number of new cases not going up, staying at just so many a day. They’re not. There are more every day than there were the day before.

I don’t even ….

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 6:35 am

Then you are wrong nk. Remember the original chart. It showed two different curves, one under hospital capacity with a longer peak and tail and one above hospital capacity with a higher peak and shorter tail. They claimed we needed to stay on the lower, “flatter” curve so hospital capacity wouldn’t be overwhelmed.

Look it up.

NJRob (4d595c) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:49 am

tens of millions of jobs are being lost for no good reason, it’s not creative destruction, it’s malicious destruction, this procrustean regime doesn’t even work for the number cruncher who created it, dr, neil ferguson,

narciso (7404b5) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:51 am

If I give someone a vaccination shot, I am deliberately causing them minor pain, even though the vaccination is given for reasons that are completely laudable and have no relation to the pain.

No, you are deliberately administering a vaccination that incidentally may cause minor pain.

You did not set out to deliberately cause minor pain. That was totally incidental to your purpose and intent.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:53 am

The real flaw in your argument is the assumption that customers would have continued to come in like normal if there had been no shut down orders. They wouldn’t have. I base that statement on how people were acting before the orders started going into effect.

Kishnevi (a1b7cb) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:16 am

So your argument is the orders aren’t needed and are instead just dictatorial actions by our betters?

NJRob (4d595c) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:55 am

narcisco, that’s cray-cray.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:55 am

So your argument is the orders aren’t needed and are instead just dictatorial actions by our betters?

How do you define gaslight, again?

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 8:56 am

So your argument is the orders aren’t needed and are instead just dictatorial actions by our betters?

No, I am pointing out that we would be in a deep recession (at least) even if there was not a single shutdown order in order place, and most of those businesses would be seeing lots fewer customers no matter what. Bluegrass Dana’s friend would be facing going out of business no matter what Gov Wolf did or did not do.

Kishnevi (a1b7cb) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:04 am

“tens of millions of jobs are being lost for no good reason”

Do you believe that covid is real? That it has killed at least 80k people in the US so far?

Davethulhu (a122fb) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:11 am

Crazy are these placebo measures which is plunging the world into depression, for what purpose.

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:14 am

37,000 deaths vs 30 million unemployed not a realistic tradeoff.

Narciso (7404b5) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:15 am

“ May I point out that if taking a certain action will inevitably and foreseeably result in X, then that action can be reasonably be describes deliberately resulting in X even if the action was motivated by reasons having no relation to X?”

– Kishnevi

You may indeed. You shouldn’t have to, but you have pointed it out well.

Doing something “knowingly” is a highly culpable mental state.

Leviticus (69df94) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:17 am

No, I am pointing out that we would be in a deep recession (at least) even if there was not a single shutdown order in order place, and most of those businesses would be seeing lots fewer customers no matter what. Bluegrass Dana’s friend would be facing going out of business no matter what Gov Wolf did or did not do.

Kishnevi (a1b7cb) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:04 am

You cannot know how few customers they needed to sustain their business till the economy recovered.

But if people were avoiding it and sheltering in place, you are admitting that these draconian measures aren’t needed because people would do them on their own.

NJRob (4d595c) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:18 am

But if people were avoiding it and sheltering in place, you are admitting that these draconian measures aren’t needed because people would do them on their own.

Why do you insist on this twisting of what Kishnevi says?

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:25 am

Doing something “knowingly” is a highly culpable mental state.

So, you’d support a conviction for assault and battery if a physician administered a shot?

Because they damn sure did it “intentionally”, and your eight-year-old self felt a reasonable fear of bodily harm!

Please…!!!

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:29 am

The irony of Ragspierre’s comments at 93 and 94 defies parody.

Leviticus (69df94) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:46 am

Actually, “irony” is way too generous. “Hypocrisy” is closer.

Leviticus (69df94) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:47 am

Because they damn sure did it “intentionally”, and your eight-year-old self felt a reasonable fear of bodily harm!

That’s why we routinely sign medical consent forms before the doctor does anything.

Kishnevi (a1b7cb) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:53 am

Express consent is a defense to battery and paying for the battery corroboration. Implied consent, for persons incapable of express consent but presumed willing to give it if they were capable, is still somewhat debatable in emergency room protocols and depends on the circumstances.

nk (1d9030) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:55 am

And have legal guardians for eight-year olds.

Leviticus (69df94) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:55 am

I see a LOT of unnecessary hair-splitting here, and some overt personal attacks by people who can’t fashion a cogent argument.

The notion that the civil authorities DELIBERATELY set out to cost people their jobs is irrational. As I’ve stated, job loss was incidental to the orders protecting public health.

You can kick against the pricks all you want, but thems the facts.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 11:01 am

100. But then there is a perfectly fair question about whether those orders protecting public health were:

A) Effective

and

B) Necessary

Neither of which you seem to be willing or able to address despite the fact that, as time passes, it looks like those orders were neither.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/9/2020 @ 11:14 am

Neither of which you seem to be willing or able to address despite the fact that, as time passes, it looks like those orders were neither.

Your first allegation is simply false. I’ve said several times that there is a necessary tension between economic vitality and public safety. Just as there has always been a tension between law enforcement and civil liberty. A.L.W.A.Y.S.

YOU are free to think what you may, and from the first you have consistently been for the extreme of doing what you damn well please, and everybody and everything running counter to that is wrong. Just as here.

AND, as I’ve state before, when you run ANYTHING where the lives and liability of and for people and their organization(s) are at stake, you let us know.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 11:40 am

102. My first allegation was false? These lockdowns are looking less and less effective and necessary, and your response to being told this amounts to little more than “nuh uh! You don’t even know!”

You can do what you damn well please too, Raggy. And if that means cowering in fear of a sub-micron viroid, you are free to do that as well. But I am free to call you out on your bulls**t and your cowardice and observe that “experts” in health care have just as frequently and just as egregiously been wrong as they have elsewhere in setting major policy in America.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/9/2020 @ 11:45 am

Your first allegation was about my refusal to address the possible. That was false.

Calling me a coward just proves what a child you are.

Your attack on experts is just a naked assertion from a VERY fringe “believer” who has sung the same tired song for months. It isn’t getting any more palatable.

AND, as I’ve stated before, when you run ANYTHING where the lives and liability of and for people and their organization(s) are at stake, you let us know.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:01 pm

> It’s all well and good to tell us about the people who are weathering this crisis just fine being kind of pricks about it, but these are the stories we need to be telling.

The irony here is that reopening the economy would be safer if people would comply with social distancing and mask-wearing rules, and that health departments would be willing to do so sooner if they had a reasonable basis for believing that people will comply.

But what we know from the behavior of people like this, or the people who are threatening to boycott Costco because of their “customers must wear a mask” rule, or the behavior of protesters who don’t abide by either social distancing or mask wearing rules, is this: the American public *will not* abide by social distancing and mask-wearing requirements, so any plan for the future has to be grounded in recognition of that fact.

I *really* wish this were not true.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:14 pm

> But if people were avoiding it and sheltering in place, you are admitting that these draconian measures aren’t needed because people would do them on their own.

No.

If I believe that 20% of the people staying at home is sufficient to put most low-margin businesses under, but and I believe that 90% is necessary to contain the spread of the virus, there’s a *huge* space for public behavior that is simultaneously sufficient to tank the economy and insufficient to contain the virus, and saying that I think the public’s natural reaction would be sufficient to put most low-margin businesses under doesn’t imply saying that I think the public’s natural reaction would have been sufficient to contain the virus.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:16 pm

> Gosh, Dana, your friend is a liar.

Woah. That seems *completely* out of line. I understand that the entire world is highly stressed and more reactive than normal, but we’re all going to be better off if we’re kind to one another.

Please retract this allegation.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:19 pm

Aphrael, the Swedish Model was based on the expectation the Swedes strong community spirit would make orders unnecessary. They’d just do the right things because that’s what Swedes do.

Well, not so much…

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:20 pm

Sorry you feel that way.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:22 pm

Ragspierre: to be clear, I believe people’s natural reaction would be sufficient to put entire swathes of the economy (hospitality, restaurants, live music) out of business without being sufficient to contain the virus.

I was objecting to the notion that believing the former (people would naturally react in a way that would put large swathes of the economy out of business) implies believing that it would be sufficient to contain the virus.

Had the lock down orders been followed up with actions to freeze the economy in place and provide sufficient temporary support to keep businesses afloat and people employed, we would have been in the best of all possible worlds given the existence of this pandemic.

But that’s not what we did, and now we’re left with a catastrophe no matter what we choose to do tomorrow. And because we’re twenty first century Americans, rather than trying to figure out how to resurrect the economy while saving the most lives possible, we’re going to spend the rest of the year and the next several years pointing fingers at, and fighting, with each other, while the country burns.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:24 pm

But yet Sweden’s CV-19 experience is remarkably like areas in the US with much of its diaspora. Though I do think its incredulous for pols in midwestern states to employee-blame when employers have dictated those close quarter culturally differing living arrangements via low wages offered.

urbanleftbehind (22e614) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:25 pm

> Sorry you feel that way.

I’m not. The fact that I think accusing someone of lying is inappropriate and definitionally bad behavior, in the absence of clear evidence that what they are saying is both untrue and known to them to be untrue, is *in my opinion* something to be proud of.

I am sorry you disagree.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:27 pm

Admittedly, I will miss OCB and Golden Corral. What struck me about Sweet Tomatoes the handful of times I went there was the number of customers with no hair and pulling oxygen tanks. Textbook example of a business that would have failed with or without a lockdown.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/souplantations-buffet-style-restaurants-closing-004958454.html

urbanleftbehind (22e614) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:34 pm

You can go through life with the happy opinion you are better than me. I disagree, but that’s what makes life interesting.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:37 pm

Had the lock down orders been followed up with actions to freeze the economy in place and provide sufficient temporary support to keep businesses afloat and people employed, we would have been in the best of all possible worlds given the existence of this pandemic.

I’m intrigued; how would that happen in reality (that’s not snark, but a real question).

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:41 pm

> You can go through life with the happy opinion you are better than me.

it’s not a happy feeling; it’s a feeling of deep disappointment that as people we can’t even agree that it’s wrong to assume ill intent of others, and a wrenching despair for the future if something so fundamental to our ability to live together (not assuming ill intent without evidence of ill intent) is an unachievable goal.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:45 pm

> I’m intrigued; how would that happen in reality (that’s not snark, but a real question).

temporarily suspend all installment payments on debt, across the board, and all rent, and then backstop wages for industries which are unable to operate.

this was probably impossible as a political matter — the owners of the debt would object to suspension of debt payments and would have screamed about socialism and government intrusiveness — but as an economic matter it would have worked.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:47 pm

You’d have opposite-ends-of-spectrum resistance to social distancing enforcement (maybe not so opposite, if one reads Thomas Sowell), as we see in many microagressions by right-wing whites and 2 big macro-agressions by black customers on black security guards and McDonalds employees in Flint and in OKC this week. And contact tracing would have been DOA because Hawaiian Judge (exception KY as I have been told).

urbanleftbehind (22e614) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:50 pm

aphreal, I think it would also be impossible from a legal standpoint, and less economically viable than you suggest. It would take a very deep analysis of the economics of your idea to understand all the ramifications. I applaud the impulse, however.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 1:00 pm

…because we’re twenty first century Americans, rather than trying to figure out how to resurrect the economy while saving the most lives possible, we’re going to spend the rest of the year and the next several years pointing fingers at, and fighting, with each other, while the country burns.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:24 pm

Cui bono, Aph?

Gryph (08c844) — 5/9/2020 @ 1:12 pm

Asks the chief finger-pointer de lux.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/9/2020 @ 1:30 pm

Gryph, at 120: do you disagree with my description of what we’re doing?

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 1:47 pm

If I believe that 20% of the people staying at home is sufficient to put most low-margin businesses under, but and I believe that 90% is necessary to contain the spread of the virus, there’s a *huge* space for public behavior that is simultaneously sufficient to tank the economy and insufficient to contain the virus, and saying that I think the public’s natural reaction would be sufficient to put most low-margin businesses under doesn’t imply saying that I think the public’s natural reaction would have been sufficient to contain the virus.

aphrael (7962af) — 5/9/2020 @ 12:16 pm

Define contain the virus? Do you imagine we can just stay hidden and the virus will disappear or do you mean we are going to stay inside till there is a vaccine?\

What are the economic conditions you expect to occur with this policy? What is the death rate from an economic collapse, financial ruin, farm failure?

What is the rate of suicide over unemployment and destitution?

NJRob (4d595c) — 5/9/2020 @ 9:47 pm

Do you imagine we can just stay hidden and the virus will disappear

That worked in New Zealand, but they started that when there wasn’t such a great percentage of people infected.

On March 20, they were predicting it would take 18 months:

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/03/coronavirus-kiwis-could-face-up-to-18-months-of-social-isolation.html

But it took only about 6 or 7 weeks

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/05/how-new-zealand-brought-new-coronavirus-cases-down-to-zero.html

Except that Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is not yer ready to declare victory.

A decision on whether to go from Alert Level 3 (they were on Level 4 for 5 weeks) to Alert Level 2 will be made Monday.

They never were at Alert Level 2.

Sammy Finkelman (375edc) — 5/9/2020 @ 10:49 pm

Sammy,

How many people visit the United States every month. Extrapolate.

NJRob (4d595c) — 5/9/2020 @ 11:00 pm

Unless you’re for closing our borders in perpetuity.

NJRob (4d595c) — 5/9/2020 @ 11:02 pm

NJRob (4d595c) — 5/9/2020 @ 11:00 pm & 11:02 pm

How many people visit the United States every month. Extrapolate.

Unless you’re for closing our borders in perpetuity.

(Stephen Miller might be. You could wonder if he’ll advocate it.)

You’re right, this is obviously not a solution. New Zealand cut off all visitors.

In principle, if extended long enough, a lockdown could get rid of it. But if it around anywhere else, there could only be, say, trips to and from Oceania.

But you could put trained dogs at airports (and at hospitals) to detect coronavirus and that would catch most of the cases.

https://local12.com/news/coronavirus/researchers-believe-dogs-could-be-used-to-detect-covid-19-05-06-2020

According to CBS, diabetic alert dogs can even sniff out blood sugar levels before they become dangerous.

Not just according to CBS. The diabetic assist dogs ae=re mainstream. Notso the cancer screenings dogs because there;s nobody pushing it. But this could work, and there’s no real doubt about it.

The only problem with this, besides training and certifying enough dogs, is what happens when the dogs catches coronavirus? Will it still detect the virus? Can it pass it on?

And you treat them with a package of 3 or 4 artificially grown anti-SARS2 antibodies. That would be enough for all except victims of clotting

Sammy Finkelman (375edc) — 5/10/2020 @ 12:50 am

122. I think it’s an apt description. What I asked was, cui bono? Who benefits from the country burning as the economy implodes? We are not victims of a virus, Aph. We are victims of conscious, purposeful decisions made by politicians.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/10/2020 @ 1:13 am

We could also be victims of both, and it would be productive to admit that.

Leviticus (6159e1) — 5/10/2020 @ 6:45 am

We are not victims of a virus, Aph. We are victims of conscious, purposeful decisions made by politicians.

Yep. THERE’s that conspiracy theory popping up! Glad we finally have that smoked.

Gryph is a victim! Of bad, teeeer’ble, eeeeeevile politicians who made conscious, PURPOSEFUL decisions…!!!!

No finger-pointing there. No-sireeee, bob.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 6:56 am

130. No conspiracy. I think “Plandemic” is a bunch of bunk. But I also think lockdowns were unnecessary and that is the conscious decision by politicians that I disagree with. Since that ship has sailed and most of America is locked down, the question becomes how much longer we’ll have to tolerate this enforced economic suicide; no answer seems to be forthcoming from the politicians, or from you.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/10/2020 @ 7:52 am

129. We’re only “victims” of CoViD-19 in the sense that we suffer paralyzing fear of its effects. Since it’s reasonable to point out that politicians are stoking that fear, again I ask, who benefits?

Gryph (08c844) — 5/10/2020 @ 7:53 am

Ah, you soft-mouthed the PURPOSEFUL part. Now you’re saying that “politicians” are stoking that fear. Your straw man is complete with the dark question, “Who benefits?”

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 8:07 am

Since that ship has sailed and most of America is locked down, the question becomes how much longer we’ll have to tolerate this enforced economic suicide; no answer seems to be forthcoming from the politicians, or from you.

Huh? How did I get to be CV19 guru?

Of course, I can’t answer your question partly because I reject two bogus premises…

1. there is an enforced economic suicide, and

2. most of America is “locked down”.

You may have missed the news, but the US is re-opening, at least as pertains to the “forced” part. How fast that occurs will vary, as it should. The wisdom of that re-opening is dubious, but time will tell.

We could see another imposition of orders, depending on how all this shakes out over the next many weeks. It’ll be those evvvvviiiiiile PURPOSEFUL politicians and experts who push them in your face. As you’ve said…

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 8:19 am

“ A person commits an offense if he:
(1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual…”

– Model Penal Code

Again: “intentionally” and “knowingly” are indistinguishable in many parts of the Model Penal Code. All of this emphasis on PURPOSEFUL is omitting any analysis of “knowingly.”

Leviticus (6159e1) — 5/10/2020 @ 9:07 am

We’re only “victims” of CoViD-19 in the sense that we suffer paralyzing fear of its effects.

It noteworthy that you tend to use terms that drum up visions of hysteria when you talk about COVID-19, Gryph. Why does it have to be “paralyzing fear,” rather than valid concern? From where I stand, people aren’t paralyzed with fear, they are concerned, and they are continually reassessing whether to decrease the personal safety measures they’ve adopted, or whether it’s the right time to open their businesses. It must be different where you live.

Dana (0feb77) — 5/10/2020 @ 9:12 am

Again: “intentionally” and “knowingly” are indistinguishable in many parts of the Model Penal Code. All of this emphasis on PURPOSEFUL is omitting any analysis of “knowingly.”

Well, no, on several fronts. The penal code uses two terms on purpose; knowingly OR intentionally. They are not indistinguishable, as a reading of case law clearly reveals.

The word PURPOSEFUL carries connotations of an act performed with a specific, cognitive plan to effect a PURPOSE. Typically, in the penal codes of most jurisdictions this kind of act is termed “premeditated”, and compounds a felony.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 10:37 am

Ol’ Gryph uses the terms he does because he is very active advocate for his (I think) fringe position.

None of the people I know is at all “paralyzed” by “fear”. I, for instance, live by choice in a household with children, a working teenager, a nurse who works in a very large hospital, and adults who also work and always have. I could live alone, but I think the costs would be greater than what security I might attain. I find the notion that I’m “paralyzed” or “fearful” simply laughable.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 10:46 am

138. If you are not fearful, then you should have no problem with opening things back up and letting individuals decide for themselves whether to isolate themselves. If you do have a problem with that, as you seem to, then I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that you are fearful. It may be wrong, but it’s reasonable.

As for myself, there are places I do not wish to go, and people I do not wish to have contact with precisely because I don’t wish to get sick or make others sick. As a grown adult, I simply believe I ought to be free to make those choices myself. Anybody who has a problem with that stance is saying at least as much about themselves as they try to say about me.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/10/2020 @ 10:52 am

I’m paralyzed with fear of cancer because I refuse to smoke cigarettes.

Davethulhu (a122fb) — 5/10/2020 @ 10:57 am

If you are not fearful, then you should have no problem with opening things back up and letting individuals decide for themselves whether to isolate themselves. If you do have a problem with that, as you seem to, then I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that you are fearful. It may be wrong, but it’s reasonable.

So much BS, so little time!

On the contrary, if YOU have no problem with individuals deciding for themselves what precautions they take, why do you call them “cowards” “hiding” in “paralyzing” “fear”?

Whether I agree with the lifting of orders or not, or the pace of re-opening, that’s underway. I can’t change it except to voice a note of caution, PART of which reflects my concern that events may see the re-imposition of ordered measures. It’s happened before in American history.

Maybe you lack the snap to discern “concern” from “fear”. SMDH

You can ASSume what you will, but your “reasonable” ASSumption flies directly in the face of what I’ve said, and reason.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:10 am

assess their willingness (or unwillingness) to lessen their personal pre-cautions in place, or whether it’s the right time to open their businesses.

Grabbin’ Newsom will let them know if/when it’s okay. If you are a resident of LA County, think 2021… maybe…

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:19 am

As a grown adult, I simply believe I ought to be free to make those choices myself. Anybody who has a problem with that stance is saying at least as much about themselves as they try to say about me.

Well, to a fair extent, who has stopped you? Nobody has stopped me.

OTOH, we live in a society with laws in place to control the spread of a deadly AND debilitating disease. Several here have and still do use all kinds of hyperbolic crap to make out that these laws and their imposition are five kinds of tyranny. They are not. It’s simply stupid, ahistorical and generally selfish.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:21 am

If you are not fearful, then you should have no problem with opening things back up and letting individuals decide for themselves whether to isolate themselves. If you do have a problem with that, as you seem to, then I think it’s perfectly reasonable to assume that you are fearful.

Gryph, again, you choose the word “fearful” rather than concerned. One evokes a paranoia, or hysteria, while the other conveys a reasonable reaction. I believe that is intentional, and therefore I reject the framing of the conversation. Being concerned about the process of opening the economy, and the risk involved DOES NOT MEAN that I am against the process beginning. As much as you seem determined to make it an either/or situation, it’s really not. It is both possible to begin opening up the economy AND be reasonably concerned about the risk of increased infections as a result.

Dana (0feb77) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:22 am

143. I’m fortunate enough to live in a state where government interference has been relatively minimal. But we’ve had our share of places shut down here, too, at least until things have slowly started to reopen. Leaving these businesses closed is a gross infringement of the right of free association to anyone who wishes to be open, and anyone who wishes to do business with these businesses forced close.

As for using words like “deadly” and “debilitating” to describe CoViD-19? It’s neither. And that is how I know you’re afraid of it.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:23 am

MKH shares a few thoughts…

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Screen-Shot-2020-05-10-at-12.48.41-PM.png

Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:23 am

144. You can be concerned without trampling on people’s rights, Dana. More tyranny throughout history has been exercised in the name of “legitimate concern” than for any other reason. When businesses are forced to close by diktat, that crosses a line that is very clear and distinct to me.

If you’re not okay with businesses being forced to close (as I am most certainly not, in case you hadn’t noticed), then just say so. As long as you’re okay with it, I’ll call it out as the cowardice it is. But “deadly” and “debilitating” sicknesses and accidents, by the scale with which we measure CoViD-19, are nothing new. The one thing in life I am absolutely certain of is that we will all die.

Gryph (08c844) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:27 am

Leaving these businesses closed is a gross infringement of the right of free association to anyone who wishes to be open, and anyone who wishes to do business with these businesses forced close.

And here, we’ve smoked your fringe nonsense out nicely. If you are caught serving tainted meat, your establishment will be shut down. I a hair stylist is violating the health code provisions governing her salon, it will be shut down. If a surveyor is practicing with expired credentials, they are shut down.

As for using words like “deadly” and “debilitating” to describe CoViD-19? It’s neither. And that is how I know you’re afraid of it.

And THIS is how I know you’re a nutter.

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:32 am

The one thing in life I am absolutely certain of is that we will all die.

The statement is exactly like “Everyone lies”. It’s a truism that tells us nothing useful about life and people.

It is used as a cheap deflection and/or a component of a straw man fallacy. (Look it up.)

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 11:40 am

As for myself, there are places I do not wish to go, and people I do not wish to have contact with precisely because I don’t wish to get sick or make others sick.

In other words, you are experiencing fear.

Kishnevi (ad27e2) — 5/10/2020 @ 12:24 pm

As for using words like “deadly” and “debilitating” to describe CoViD-19? It’s neither. And that is how I know you’re afraid of

Well, there are approximately 80,000 families in the US who would quite correctly call it deadly.

And an unknown proportion of 1.3 million cases who wouldvsay it is serious enough to deserve being called debilitating.

Kishnevi (ad27e2) — 5/10/2020 @ 12:28 pm

As for using words like “deadly” and “debilitating” to describe CoViD-19? It’s neither. And that is how I know you’re afraid of

Well, it’s the #1 cause of death in the US in the last month. It will exceed 110k by the end of the month, and there is no evidence that the trend line is going down, the opposite in fact. If the admin’s normally rosy projection of 3k a day by the beginning of June is accurate, that’s a pretty simple math problem for what a month looks like, or a quarter, or a year; but even at half that rate, is 500k dead in the US not deadly, is 500, is 5? Of course, it isn’t 5, or 500…a day.

And why not wear a mask and gloves as a prereq to going about, that seems like the minimum of basic common sense, because covid is here, is deadly, is contagious, it doesn’t even inconvenience you to any real degree, and we know that is you’re primary concern.

Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 5/10/2020 @ 1:03 pm

As a grown adult, I simply believe I ought to be free to make those choices myself. Anybody who has a problem with that stance is saying at least as much about themselves as they try to say about me.

AND…

As for using words like “deadly” and “debilitating” to describe CoViD-19? It’s neither. And that is how I know you’re afraid of it.

Ergo, THIS is why there were closure laws all over the US. Because there were nutters abroad in the land who insisted they had “rights” to deny reality as part of being an adult…bi-gawd!

Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 5/10/2020 @ 1:16 pm

5/8/2020

Friday Night Funnies: Wealthy White Guy Does The Pandemic Pout

153 Responses to “Friday Night Funnies: Wealthy White Guy Does The Pandemic Pout”

Favorite Sites

Links

Patterico Sells Out