Patterico's Pontifications

4/21/2020

Harvard Professor: We Need To Ban Homeschooling Because Parents Are Dumb

Filed under: General — Dana @ 2:29 pm



[guest post by Dana]

With nearly 30 million kids across the U.S. currently out of school because of the pandemic, and many parents now homeschooling their children as a result, it’s interesting that Harvard Magazine would choose this moment to call for a ban on homeschooling, and denigrate parents as well:

RAPIDLY INCREASING number of American families are opting out of sending their children to school, choosing instead to educate them at home. Homeschooled kids now account for roughly 3 percent to 4 percent of school-age children in the United States, a number equivalent to those attending charter schools, and larger than the number currently in parochial schools.

Yet Elizabeth Bartholet, Wasserstein public interest professor of law and faculty director of the Law School’s Child Advocacy Program, sees risks for children—and society—in homeschooling, and recommends a presumptive ban on the practice. Homeschooling, she says, not only violates children’s right to a “meaningful education” and their right to be protected from potential child abuse, but may keep them from contributing positively to a democratic society.

But let’s hear from Bartholet herself, just to be sure she is this self-deceived:

She argues that one benefit of sending children to school at age four or five is that teachers are “mandated reporters,” required to alert authorities to evidence of child abuse or neglect. “Teachers and other school personnel constitute the largest percentage of people who report to Child Protective Services,” she explains, whereas not one of the 50 states requires that homeschooling parents be checked for prior reports of child abuse. Even those convicted of child abuse, she adds, could “still just decide, ‘I’m going to take my kids out of school and keep them at home.’”

Bartholet apparently hasn’t taken the time to research the rates of abuse in public schools, and doesn’t realize that sexual abuse of students does take place in public schools, and at an alarming rate in which “an estimated 10% of K–12 students will experience sexual misconduct by a school employee by the time they graduate from high school.”

Sexual abuse of students happens in public schools, and at the hands of teachers or those in charge. And it is not unusual for it to go on year after year after year, until finally the horrible deeds are exposed. Powerful teachers unions are designed to protect all teachers – even the bad apples – and it can make it extraordinarily difficult to remove said bad apples. But by all means, let’s point to home schools as festering pustules of child abuse, and ignore the magnitude of problems in the public schools.

And of course Bartholet mischaracterizes Christianity as a whole in an effort to convince readers that parents do not have their children’s best interests at heart:

In a paper published recently in the Arizona Law Review, she notes that parents choose homeschooling for an array of reasons. Some find local schools lacking or want to protect their child from bullying. Others do it to give their children the flexibility to pursue sports or other activities at a high level. But surveys of homeschoolers show that a majority of such families (by some estimates, up to 90 percent) are driven by conservative Christian beliefs, and seek to remove their children from mainstream culture. Bartholet notes that some of these parents are “extreme religious ideologues” who question science and promote female subservience and white supremacy.

Bartholet extols the state as being the only entity capable of producing sufficiently educated and well-rounded children that will grow up to be productive members of society:

She views the absence of regulations ensuring that homeschooled children receive a meaningful education equivalent to that required in public schools as a threat to U.S. democracy. “From the beginning of compulsory education in this country, we have thought of the government as having some right to educate children so that they become active, productive participants in the larger society,” she says. This involves in part giving children the knowledge to eventually get jobs and support themselves. “But it’s also important that children grow up exposed to community values, social values, democratic values, ideas about nondiscrimination and tolerance of other people’s viewpoints,” she says, noting that European countries such as Germany ban homeschooling entirely and that countries such as France require home visits and annual tests.

Bartholet’s misguided view of the state is stunning. Yet unsurprising. Of course she believes that parents are incapable of providing meaningful education for their children, and that only the state has that capability. Stupid parents, know your place! Moreover, that she actually believes that homeschooling families live under a rock, their children-students will remain unexposed to the world around them. Parent can’t possibly impart any meaningful values to their children, especially parents of the Christian faith. So ignorant is she, that she doesn’t realize that the Christian book of guidance on how one is to live, explicitly instructs the Christian parent to actively love their neighbor while they steer and guide their children toward becoming productive members of society.

Finally, Bartholet nuttily claims that it is dangerous for parents to act with a sense of duty and responsibility toward their children 24/7 because that would be exerting too much power over them. But the all-powerful state asserting its control and influence over your children is A-OK:

Bartholet maintains that parents should have “very significant rights to raise their children with the beliefs and religious convictions that the parents hold.” But requiring children to attend schools outside the home for six or seven hours a day, she argues, does not unduly limit parents’ influence on a child’s views and ideas. “The issue is, do we think that parents should have 24/7, essentially authoritarian control over their children from ages zero to 18? I think that’s dangerous,” Bartholet says. “I think it’s always dangerous to put powerful people in charge of the powerless, and to give the powerful ones total authority.”

Harvard should be embarrassed to promote the dangerously misguided ideas that Bartholet espouses. Clearly she has spent no time with homeschooling families across America. Bartholet has such a warped view of parenting that it makes me hope she doesn’t have children of her own upon whom to foist this crap. And the irony is that it is precisely because of her demonstrated lack of analysis and critical thinking skills that many parents are now opting to school their children at home.

Here are a few telling comments from the article:

This is, by far, the most vapid and poorly researched article I’ve ever read. I am a public educator. Children in public schools are penned in for 8-9 hours a day with MAYBE a 20 minute recess built in with another 25 minutes for lunch. Time is constantly wasted trying to corral and transition from one arbitrary class to another. They MAYBE experience 1 or 2 field trips a year. Homeschool children, on the other hand, are often doing their school outside. They are active. They are given specialized instruction instead of a one size fits all curriculum. Field trips take place as often as they want, many once a week or more. When a child is sick, they don’t miss instruction. They are given the time to recuperate and pick up where they left off. Co-ops offer group learning atmospheres where they can learn from specialized experts in certain fields. When a child masters a concept, they can move forward instead of sitting around waiting for their peers. When a child is struggling, they can slow down without feeling like they are holding everyone back or worse being forced to just trudge ahead without the skill. Children have more time to participate in activities like 4H, music lessons, team sports, and internships since their life is not dictated by a government institution. Furthermore, homeschool students outperform public school students on the ACT, SAT, and in areas of college readiness. They are better at discussions, better at asking questions and providing analysis.This idea that homeschool children are isolated and under authoritarian rule is antiquated and shows a lack of research by this author. Public schools dictate the way a child should dress, the way a child behaves, the way a child eats, the way they play, and the way a child should learn. They dictate who gets to be successful and who gets left behind. They funnel children into groups based upon arbitrary quantifiers of potential. They dictate the number of hours a child must sit. They dictate what a child should say. They dictate what days are school days and what days are for family. The public school system literally has control of a child and his family from age 5-18. And you say they provide freedom? Absolutely tone deaf and an embarrassment to this publication.

I was homeschooled from pre-K through highschool graduation. Went to college and got double degrees. Homeschooling is amazing. The kindest, most intelligent people I know were homeschooled. I loved it. Every other homeschooler I’ve known/met loves/loved it. Way to intolerantly attack a minority group here though.

Amusingly, the illustration that accompanies the opinion is illuminating. It resorts to a manipulative and dishonest view that homeschoolers are sad and miserable as they are stuck inside their homes, enviously watching happy public school children play outside. Of course, the illustrator and editors could have benefited from being homeschooled, where unlimited time would have been provided to allow them to master any subject – including the spelling of basic words:

Original:

Untitled

Corrected:
Untitled

At the beginning of my post, I pointed out that it’s unusual timing to publish a hit piece on homeschooling, given the multitude of parents currently homeschooling their children. But really, the timing isn’t unusual – because what better time to shames parents and point out their ineptitude while promoting public education as the end-all-be-all. Ask yourself, what happens if a large number of these new homeschooling parents decide that this is working out for them, as they see that their kids are happier, less stressed, allow time to work at their own pace, and enjoying more outdoor play? What happens if these parents decide to stick with homeschooling after the pandemic is behind us? If we follow the money, who stands to lose the most if parents take this route?

P.S. I shared the article with a neighbor who has taught for 30+ years, and asked her what she thought. She was upset by Bartholet’s lack of cited research, and said: “I think it’s somebody on their soapbox, thinking that the university that they represent will carry the weight of credibility…I would probably promote homeschooling to any parent that would take it on. Back in the day, teaching [in public school] used to be a great job. Now it’s just a broken system, and a shell game at the kids’ expense.”

–Dana

95 Responses to “Harvard Professor: We Need To Ban Homeschooling Because Parents Are Dumb”

  1. You bet this article didn’t bring out the best in me.

    Dana (0feb77)

  2. 1. I’d be surprised if anything to come out of Harvard brought out the best in you, Dana.

    Gryph (08c844)

  3. ‘Homeschooling’ did not create the polio vaccine.
    ‘Homeschooling’ did not produce Shakespeare.
    ‘Homeschooling’ did not put men on the moon.

    ‘Homeschooling’ is for idiots.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  4. Am I missing the typo you allude to in the illustration?

    Dave (1bb933)

  5. Dave,

    They’ve corrected it. See the original I’ve added to the post for comparison: Arithmatic – Arithmetic…

    Dana (0feb77)

  6. I know it is a cliche, but this is how you get Trump. The gut reaction of many people to this is the equivalent of a middle finger. Hence, the middle-finger candidate, now the middle-finger President.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  7. Board Lawyer,

    How should people react to it?

    Dana (0feb77)

  8. The idea that home schooling and public/private school attendance offer a binary choice is the sort of nonsense that has hobbled our educational “system” for decades.

    If we accept the premise that we want education to position our citizens in a manner that maximizes the total brainpower that can be brought to bear on the problems faced by our society, we need to recognize that our current system of education is going to consign us to second-tier status in the future.

    Both India and China have a far larger store of untapped brainpower than America has, and China is moving aggressively to tap into what they have available. Japan and Korea are also making a strong push. If you have any doubts about the challenge that faces us, you might want to look Google “WORLD INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY INDICATORS” which gives totals of new patents by country by year.

    Whipsawed between the desire for “neighborhood schools” and the guild mentality of those who administer them today, the chance that things will change in the near future is unfortunately slim

    John B Boddie (678895)

  9. Ha. Bored, not Board… I was dictating…

    Dana (0feb77)

  10. How should people react to it?

    With utter contempt.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  11. Ha. Bored, not Board… I was dictating…

    I have a dictation function on my phone, and sometimes the results are hilarious. So I sympathize.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  12. I know it is a cliche, but this is how you get Trump. The gut reaction of many people to this is the equivalent of a middle finger. Hence, the middle-finger candidate, now the middle-finger President.

    If you’re going to elect a sociopathic lunatic every time you run across somebody with a silly opinion…

    The left does not have a monopoly on looking down their nose and sneering at people who disagree with them.

    Dave (1bb933)

  13. I agree, Dave. In this case, my reason for taking the time to post about it is that the woman has impeccable credentials and comes off as an authority on children and childhood education, and yet her ideas (as presented here) are seriously flawed and, I would say, even dangerous.

    Dana (0feb77)

  14. 12.

    The left does not have a monopoly on looking down their nose and sneering at people who disagree with them.

    Dave (1bb933) — 4/21/2020 @ 3:58 pm

    At no time and in no place has that ever been more evident than here in America, and now.

    Gryph (08c844)

  15. I’ve held for long years that having a child in many (not all) monopoly school systems is child abuse.

    I have home-schooled grandkids who are excellent students, and miles ahead of many if not most of their contemporaries who have had to attend public schools.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  16. The left does not have a monopoly on looking down their nose and sneering at people who disagree with them.

    The left may not have a monopoly, but in my experience they do it more. A lot more.

    And, more to the point, they combine it with an attempt to use the force of the state to control others. What is offensive about this woman’s article is not that she sneers at homeschoolers, but that she wants to ban them, all on the theory that the state has to control the raising of your children. That comes pretty close to totalitarian communism.

    Bored Lawyer (56c962)

  17. The woman’s opinions may be questionable, but it’s not like she attributes bad motives to people who want to homeschool, she just believes that it’s bad for the children and for the country.

    It’s OK for people to disagree in good faith.

    Dave (1bb933)

  18. The education racket justifying its existence. At least the liquor, dope, gambling, and p***ography rackets don’t insist on making them mandatory and government monopolies.

    You can see the same liberal claptrap in Justice Douglas’s dissent in Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972), a First Amendment Free Exercise (as opposed to “freedom to worship”, Kishnevi) case. In fact, she paraphrases some of Douglas’s rationale, as does DCSCA very pithily in his comment 3 above.

    nk (1d9030)

  19. It’s OK for people to disagree in good faith.

    LOL 😆

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  20. Your children is ours!

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  21. I imagine the Bible must really blow their O-rings.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  22. Well, the Bible is worth reading, and a reason to learn to read. This lady professor’s essay is an argument against literacy.

    nk (1d9030)

  23. Dave,

    Do you not agree that Bartholoet has no doubts in her mind that the state will better educate, impart community values, social values, democratic values, ideas about nondiscrimination and tolerance of other people’s viewpoints than parents?

    Dana (0feb77)

  24. Also, Dave, I don’t believe that she is operating in good faith whatsoever. Nor is she just expressing an opinion. She is wholly advocating against parental control and repsonsibility for one’s own children, and in essence, calling for an abdication of the parental role in favor of state control because the state knows better. That is a incredible denigration of parents and the unique worth they have.

    Dana (0feb77)

  25. Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia and Communist China all insisted on the government having final say in children’s education rather than the parents.

    Great run of success there.

    What greater proof of public schools being indoctrination centers than those college educators recently being worried that classes over the Internet because of the virus would be bad because students might share what they were being taught, with video evidence.

    https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=14563

    Elementary thru high school educators are also worried that the kids might be learning better in a cleaner, safer environment and may not come back.
    __ _

    harkin (c72ccb)

  26. @25 I think everyone (left and right) should be worried about being recorded. There is nothing worse than taking a recording out of context and ginning up anger. Happens these days in equal proportions on the left and right these days.

    As for students going back, after 5 weeks of “homeschooling” I can assuredly say the schools don’t need to be worrying about losing their customers.

    tla (7ab14a)

  27. It’s interesting that the modern idea of “public” education is utterly foreign to our historical ideas, and come to us from Prussia.

    The Little Red School house is more than an American cliche. For generations it was the norm, and local parents were the sole sponsors of schools. The buildings were often purpose-built by the community. It was common in America for teachers to be itinerants, housed with the families of children they taught.

    The Prussian model brought to the US a regimented educational system with “professional” teachers drilling students to be good little fodder for a new industrial age.

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  28. Excellent commentary Dana. Thank you for it.

    NJRob (0d3c30)

  29. nk (1d9030) — 4/21/2020 @ 4:54 pm

    Scalia was as much an activist judge as Douglas.

    Kishnevi (7fbd73)

  30. They’ve corrected it. See the original I’ve added to the post for comparison: Arithmatic – Arithmetic…

    It might not have been a typo. It may have been meant as a dig against supposedly ignorant parents who try to homeschool their kids.

    Kishnevi (7fbd73)

  31. “ @25 I think everyone (left and right) should be worried about being recorded. There is nothing worse than taking a recording out of context and ginning up anger.”

    BS – out-of-context is still a thousand times better than not being allowed to see what your kids are being taught, especially in a public institution paid for by taxes. I can’t believe anyone would advocate lack of transparency in classrooms.

    harkin (c72ccb)

  32. Speaking of institutions of higher learning:

    Jessica Drun
    @jessicadrun

    “Sweden has shut down the last of its Chinese state-sponsored teaching programmes as relations between the two countries deteriorate into hostility and mutual suspicion.

    It is believed to be the first European state to close all its Confucius institutes and classrooms”
    __ _

    Marcos Carvalho
    @riomarcos1
    ·
    There are Confucius Institutes spread all over campuses in the US. They function as espionage hubs spread CCP propaganda under the guise of “cultural exchange.” The US should follow Sweden’s lead.

    _

    harkin (c72ccb)

  33. That unprepared parents take on homeschooling — when it is a massive intrusion into their free time and even they know that they are not the best teachers — is really a serious indictment of the FREE* public school system.

    How many people, given the opportunity for free* food, would say, “No thank you I will grow my own.” It would have to be terribly bad free food.

    If the Harvard folks weren’t intellectually dishonest political hacks, they would observe that these kids (whose interests they pretend to support) would be far better off with a private school voucher system, where the parents could choose something more to their liking. Most would, if they could afford such (the exceptions being those highly educated people who OUGHT to be homeschooling their kids).

    But they don’t talk about vouchers and/or private schools because educating kids is not their primary (or even secondary) goal. The main goals are to provide employment for their public employee comrades and to indoctrinate the children in the state’s established religion (agnostic socialist statism).

    —————————-
    * yes I understand that taxes pay for it, but we are mostly talking about people who are not the highly taxed folks.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  34. The leftists lecture us all about the separation of church and state, yet they have established a system of belief and moral guidance that they intend to push relentlessly through the schools. It has gotten to the point where it IS an established religion (that it does not talk about “god” makes little difference; besides they have a god: the collective State).

    The separation of school and state is something that must happen, or all other belief systems will die in a few generations.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  35. That unprepared parents take on homeschooling — when it is a massive intrusion into their free time and even they know that they are not the best teachers — is really a serious indictment of the FREE* public school system.

    Yes. Maybe they don’t do a good job. But why do they take this on?

    If the Harvard folks weren’t intellectually dishonest political hacks, they would observe that these kids (whose interests they pretend to support) would be far better off with a private school voucher system,

    A compromise does exist. Of course … unions.

    Dustin (c56600)

  36. ‘Homeschooling’ did not put men on the moon.

    Neil Armstrong learned to fly before he learned to drive, through private instruction paid for my his parents.

    Aldrin’s father was a WWI pilot, and was an Army test pilot after the war. It’s not clear whether he taught his son how to fly, but he was certainly qualified.

    Collins had his first time at the controls of an aircraft when he was 10 or 11, but WW2 intervened. Had it not, he also would have learned to fly as a teenager.

    All three of these men had successful and intelligent parents. There is no reason they could not have been home-schooled. Several went to private schools.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  37. There are Confucius Institutes spread all over campuses in the US. They function as espionage hubs spread CCP propaganda under the guise of “cultural exchange.” The US should follow Sweden’s lead.

    As a Caliunicornian, I wonder if the University of California system has rid itself of these institutes? I expect not, but it’s probably difficult to decouple from the ChiComs when you’re accepting tens of millions $$$ from them, let alone giving them access to new technology and intellectual property.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  38. Dustin, my point is they don’t touch upon voucher systems or other alternatives to state-run schools, because other forms of education are outside their control..

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  39. BS – out-of-context is still a thousand times better than not being allowed to see what your kids are being taught, especially in a public institution paid for by taxes. I can’t believe anyone would advocate lack of transparency in classrooms.
    I would hope that you would know what your kids were being taught without having to review videos. I’ve just seen too much gotcha recordings defaming good people to make me rather not see any broad recording of classrooms. In my city we just had school committee member forced to resign because she used the “N” word in an academic context. Had it not been on video, it might have just been another honest academic discussion. I imagine any number of kids are likely to say something that could be dug back up in 10 year to pillory them as a racist or sexist.

    tla (7ab14a)

  40. Does not compute…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  41. I know it is a cliche, but this is how you get Trump.

    In particular, stonewalling all alternatives to a hated system leaves people willing to accept any bulldozer that comes along. Whether that’s vouchers or that’s the Tea Party, the same actions get you the same results.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  42. As for students going back, after 5 weeks of “homeschooling” I can assuredly say the schools don’t need to be worrying about losing their customers.

    You would be surprised then to learn about the very real concern of school districts and the states about the increasing number of parents who opt out of public school and go the charter or homeschool route. There are a plethora of homeschooling umbrella organizations that support homeschoolers with how-to help to curriculum development to implementation, and more. And this was pre-pandemic. Two million students are typically homeschooled in the U.S. pre-coronavirus. Let’s see what the numbers are when schools return. Another thing to consider is, there are parents who are realizing that teaching can be done online with an actual teacher doing the teaching. That’s something new for the U.S. public school students and families too.

    Dana (0feb77)

  43. If you’re going to elect a sociopathic lunatic every time you run across somebody with a silly opinion…

    “Trump” was 20 or 30 years in the making. The (bipartisan) establishment kept on as it kept on, defeating all saner alternatives by any means necessary. Both sides promised relief to the middle class, and both sides did the middle class dirt. Eventually the torches and pitchforks came out, and the mob didn’t particularly care about “after.”

    The pity is that no one more able than Trump got out ahead of the mob.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  44. Kevin M.,

    I remember John Boehner fighting with Obama to renew the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program. Democrats typically prefer to pour more money into poory performing public schools than allocating money that would allow students to attend charter schools rather than stay in those poor performing schools.

    Dana (0feb77)

  45. 22.Well, the Bible is worth reading, and a reason to learn to read.

    As is Mein Kampf und Das Kapital. The Wit and Wisdom of Spiro Agnew… not so much.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  46. Do you not agree that Bartholoet has no doubts in her mind that the state will better educate, impart community values, social values, democratic values, ideas about nondiscrimination and tolerance of other people’s viewpoints than parents?

    Do you have any doubts that the belief system and moral instruction she would have the state schools impart is indistinguishable from a religion? After all, the schools were set up to teach those things that religion does not, like literacy, science and mathematics.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  47. As is Mein Kampf und Das Kapital

    Gee, I would have said The Wealth of Nations and Locke’s Second Treatise on Government.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  48. @47. New England Patriots/Houston Astros 101, Kevin:

    Always helps to read the other team’s playbooks.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  49. There are Confucius Institutes spread all over campuses in the US. They function as espionage hubs spread CCP propaganda under the guise of “cultural exchange.” The US should follow Sweden’s lead.

    Treat them like China treats Falun Gong — a seditious cult.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  50. Democrats typically prefer to pour more money into poory performing public schools than allocating money that would allow students to attend charter schools rather than stay in those poor performing schools.

    They will always place much more value on good intentions than praiseworthy results.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  51. …this is how you get Trump:

    1. Better television ratings.
    2. German chocolate cake w/three scoops of Dolly Madison Vanilla
    3. Attractive figures: $500 million profit- or simply 38-24-36.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  52. Always helps to read the other team’s playbooks.

    Cliff Notes are fine. Which side is using Mein Kampf these days anyway?

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  53. Houston Astros

    One of the things I hate about this lock-down is that it has delayed the date on which the Astros return to Chavez Ravine.

    Kevin M (ab1c11)

  54. @36. =yawn=

    And none of them would have qualified to be selected as NASA astronauts for the Apollo program. It’s why Yeager [FYI, met him up at Edwards AFB and he’s still alive at 97]– was denied:

    ‘NASA is putting a lot of emphasis on “scientist astronauts” — back in the first years of the space program, they primarily needed pilots and engineers. Then in 1969, the requirements broadened as we became more comfortable with space exploration, going further, and engaging in cooperative scientific efforts at the International Space Station. NASA is also looking for astronauts who can perform experiments, maintain complex equipment, and who have a variety of applicable knowledge skills to push the envelope of science performed in space.

    Back in 1969, you needed to possess a doctorate to be considered, but bachelor’s degrees are enough today to get you into a training program, when taken into consideration all the other requirements — though upgrading at least to a master’s degree would probably help.’ -source, astronaut.com

    ‘Homeschooling’ is for idiots.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  55. @42 I agree that school districts worry about school choice voucher programs and their impact on those districts, and it is real potential problem for the districts and kids “stuck” in those schools. I just don’t think most parents who have had to force to “homeschool” their kids these past few weeks are going to be eager to do so full time when they have a choice. That said and all joking aside, I’ve really enjoyed and taken fulfillment out of 20% of the time I’ve had to “teach” my kids these past few weeks. But the other 80% of time has taught my wife and me that we’re not built to do it. I believe that to be true for most parents.

    tla (7ab14a)

  56. Stay homeschooled, DC DSM!

    Ragspierre (d9bec9)

  57. @57. Ignorance is bliss; stay happy Raggy; burp your DPS!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  58. The better-looking Dana quoted:

    But surveys of homeschoolers show that a majority of such families (by some estimates, up to 90 percent) are driven by conservative Christian beliefs, and seek to remove their children from mainstream culture.

    ‘Twould seem that the good professor has problems with the freedom of religion part of the First Amendment.

    But, taking her argument to its logical conclusion, should we next expect her to want parochial schools and religious colleges banned?

    The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1)

  59. Anti-malarial drug Trump touted is linked to higher rates of death in VA coronavirus patients, study says
    An anti-malarial drug President Trump has aggressively promoted to treat covid-19 had no benefit and was linked to higher rates of death for Veterans Affairs patients hospitalized with the novel coronavirus, according to a study, raising further questions about the safety and efficacy of a treatment that has seen widespread use in the pandemic.

    The study by VA and academic researchers analyzed outcomes of 368 male patients nationwide, with 97 receiving hydroxychloroquine, 113 receiving hydroxychloroquine in combination with the antibiotic azithromycin, and 158 not receiving any hydroxychloroquine.

    Rates of death in the groups treated with the drugs were worse than those who did not receive the drugs, the study found. Rates of patients on ventilators were roughly equal, with no benefit demonstrated by the drugs.

    More than 27 percent of patients treated with hydroxychloroquine died, and 22 percent of those treated with the combination therapy died, compared with an 11.4 percent death rate in those not treated with the drugs, the study said. The results were from an observational study of outcomes and were not part of a randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial, which is the gold standard for testing drugs.

    The study was published on the site medrxiv.org, which is a clearinghouse for academic studies on the coronavirus that have not yet been peer-reviewed or published in academic journals.

    “An association of increased overall mortality was identified in patients treated with hydroxychloroquine alone,” wrote the authors, who are affiliated with the University of Virginia, the University of South Carolina, and the VA system in Columbia, S.C. “These findings highlight the importance of awaiting the results of ongoing prospective, randomized, controlled studies before widespread adoption of these drugs.”
    …….
    In some cases, hope has trumped evidence in the worldwide rush to find countermeasures. Hospitals and doctors around the world have been prescribing chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, often in combination with azithromycin, based on a belief it can help, despite a lack of sound evidence that the drugs make patients better or eliminate virus from the body.
    …….

    RipMurdock (e81e20)

  60. Mr M wrote:

    yes I understand that taxes pay for it, but we are mostly talking about people who are not the highly taxed folks.

    When we lived in Pennsylvania, in a house assessed for $87,500, our annual property tax bill assessed by the school district — and yes, there were two property tax levies, one for the county government, and a separate one by the school district — was around $2,500. That’s $208 every month out of our mortgage payment.

    Even the “not highly taxed folks” are more highly taxed than you might imagine.

    The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1)

  61. @53. If MLB was really “on the ball” they could simply test teams weekly and play in a selected group of empty AL/NL stadiums and cut a deal to float the vendors league wide–MLB can afford it. The revenue comes from the television and radio contracts anyway, not stadium ticket sales. [Denying Giuliani his seat at Yankee Stadium would be sweet revenge.] Personally, always found ball games more enjoyable to listen to w/TV and radio booth announcers doing play by play. They can season it w/laying down a stadium cheering track just as w/laugh tracks on sitcoms. Today, much of what we see on the TeeVee in the stadiums– ads, ball tracking and such, are computer generated as it is. Recall, though, that NFL game some years ago that tried to broadcast the game w/o any ‘color commentary’–it didn’t work out well.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  62. @52. Hard to tell; it gobbels the mind.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  63. Do you not agree that Bartholoet has no doubts in her mind that the state will better educate, impart community values, social values, democratic values, ideas about nondiscrimination and tolerance of other people’s viewpoints than parents?

    It sounds like she thinks she’s right. A lot of people seem to feel that way…

    I don’t think it’s the state so much as she thinks the environment of learning among other students and teachers with a variety of backgrounds and viewpoints will lead to citizens who are better able to think, communicate, and work constructively with others as adults.

    Also, Dave, I don’t believe that she is operating in good faith whatsoever. Nor is she just expressing an opinion. She is wholly advocating against parental control and repsonsibility for one’s own children, and in essence, calling for an abdication of the parental role in favor of state control because the state knows better. That is a incredible denigration of parents and the unique worth they have.

    The bolded part seems like a considerable exaggeration to me. She is advocating for requiring something that is not currently required (schooling outside the home). But parents do not currently have total control over what they do with/to their children. She is advocating an incremental change, which would not affect the vast majority of students (the ones already schooled outside the home).

    Saying that parents – who may have gaps in their own education in any number of areas, and likely have no training in pedagogy – are presumptively as effective at teaching as a team of dozens of professional specialists in each field seems like a dubious assumption.

    If the child is bright, and the parents are well educated (say one with a technical background and the other with strong aptitude in the humanities), then sure, the education the kid gets could well be vastly superior to what a run-of-the-mill public or parochial school could offer.

    But like most jobs, there is an art to teaching, and people are not necessarily born good at it, especially (again, like most jobs) when they are doing it for the first time.

    Parents could insist on providing all medical care for their children too, I suppose, even if they aren’t doctors. Is it “wholly advocating against parental control and responsibility for one’s own children” to say that you should sometimes let medical professionals care for your children? That doesn’t mean abdicating responsibility, it just means recognizing that you don’t (and can’t) be good at everything.

    Dave (1bb933)

  64. @53
    The Astros aren’t scheduled to play the Dodgers during this season.

    RipMurdock (e81e20)

  65. We spent two years in Joe Biden’s home of New Castle County, Delaware. When a federal judge — who, if I heard correctly, sent his own children to private schools — ordered a busing plan to end public school segregation, the locals responded by destroying the public school system, leaving an area in which anyone who could possibly afford it to send their children to private school. Corpus Christi School, grades K-8, was utterly packed, 32 or more students per class, and the school had a waiting list to get in. Students had to take their lunches and eat at their desks, because there was no cafeteria; that had been taken for more classroom space. Most of the diocesan high schools had waiting lists to get in, and beyond them, there were the twice-as-expensive non-diocesan Catholic schools of Archmere (Joe Biden’s and his childrens’ alma mater), Salesianum (for boys) and Ursuline for girls, and they had plenty of students as well.

    And the Catholic schools were not the only private ones. There was a ‘Country Day” school, a Montessori school, several Protestant church schools and probably others that escaped my notice.

    Oh, the public school system did still exist, but it was a disaster. Had we sent our daughters to public school — and they had been in parochial school before we moved there — my younger daughter would have been bused into the combat zones in inner-city Wilmington.

    Those are the kinds of public schools this idiotic professor thinks should be educating children.

    The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1)

  66. Treat them like China treats Falun Gong — a seditious cult.

    Because aping Chinese xenophobia and intolerance is definitely what we should be doing.

    If they break the law, then prosecute them.

    Otherwise, let a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend…

    Dave (1bb933)

  67. Sorry Dave,

    Supporting Maoists is not a good idea.

    NJRob (0d3c30)

  68. There was mandatory government school education in Sparta 2700 years ago, from age seven to age twenty, for all male citizens. Matriculation equaled citizenship. Flunking out meant a demotion to Neighbor, if their mothers didn’t kill them.

    nk (1d9030)

  69. LAUSD used to have a drop out rate a 55%. They reduced that down to 35% and for some reason seem to be very proud of that fact. The way they did it is to eliminate exit exams. At the same time they said to those who had not graduated before because the exit exams here’s your diploma.

    The so-called professional specialists are responsible for the poor results at LAUSD schools.

    When California passed a proposition that mandated schools teach phonics instead of whole language, LAUSD decided that they knew better and continued to teach whole language and not teach phonics despite the law. A parents group sued to make LAUSD teach phonics.

    When California passed a proposition that eliminated social promotion of students from one grade to the next grade even when they flunked the previous grade, LAUSD said that they couldn’t do that because out of 930,000 students they had they would have to keep back over 350,000 students. They said that they did not have enough teachers to do that. It wasn’t until I understood that it was unions that were the problem because they had enough teachers. They just weren’t allowed to tell teachers they had to teach the fifth grade instead of six grade.

    There have been many more problems with LAUSD that are too numerous to document here. The issue is that the LAUSD school system is a failure.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  70. Schools, what are your options:

    (these are your options in California, things may be different in your state, there may be some variation between districts)

    Public schools:

    1. Traditional school at your school of residence- One year of educational progress is based on the average of a variety of traditional schools

    2. Traditional school in your district but not at your school of residence. (maybe you go to HS across town, by application process)

    3. Traditional school outside your district (you travel to another district to attend school, by application process).

    4. Any of the above traditional school + local jr college classes (usually called step ahead or early college or similar)- You take some of your classes at HS and some co-credit courses at the jr. college, must maintain your GPA.

    5. Country high (this might be called something else in your district, but it’s usually Country high) Traditional HS on an alternative schedule, usually for students who have fallen behind or who have specific family issues requiring an alternative schedule.

    6. Alternative schooling (student has committed an illegal act at school or persistently interfered in other students education, student has not followed the rules, at all.)

    7. District connected charter. Uses district curriculum but may have a specific area of focus. alternative schedule, or alternative curriculum delivery method or format.

    8. District independent study, split schedule- Some classes at traditional school, some classes independently using the district curriculum.

    9. District independent study- Home schooling using the district curriculum and some teacher oversite at prescribed intervals.

    10. Home/Hospital- Kids with medical issues- Home schooling with district curriculum with frequent teacher oversite (might be 1 hr p/da or 2-3 times a week.)

    Independent schools do very well for their students but are very expensive.

    Religious schools can be good or bad, Catholic and Quaker schools tend to do best of the religious schools.

    Charter schools independent of school districts are a very mixed bag, some do well, others fail their students terribly.

    Stereotypical home-school depends almost entirely on ability and investment of the parents. Online programs do not make up the difference. A student in a purely online program will make almost no progress. A parent who is not particularly knoweledgeable or skilled but is very dedicated may help a student in the humanities, but the student will make likely struggle in math and science. A parent who is not dedicated (if they don’t have the time or they don’t have the inclination, either) will have a student who doesn’t make much progress. Those “do these 800 million worksheets and learn” programs are VERY INEFFECTIVE. VERY INEFFECTIVE! VERY! A parent who is knowledgeable, skilled, and dedicated can make very good progress with their student with more than a year of progress per year of schooling.

    In California, there is probably a public school option that can meet the needs of your student and it probably is, all things being equal, the best option. However, there are some cases where it may not be, but parents have to be honest with themselves about their own investment and capability. If they don’t have the time or ability to oversee their student’s education, they need to choose something other than home schooling or independent study of any type.

    Nic (896fdf)

  71. This is probably over 20 years ago when my daughter entered seventh grade I asked the school if I could see her curriculum. They told me no. I wondered what it was that they were hiding. I ended up going to the LAUSD general counsel’s office to get permission to see my daughters curriculum. They were very nice and told the school that they had to allow me to see my daughters curriculum. However the school decided to only give me 45 minutes to review a whole semester’s curriculum. What they didn’t know is that at the time I was capable of speed reading. I found many errors in the history lessons. No teaching social studies. And at the time they had decided to implement a new math program called integrated math which I could legally opt my daughter out of and have her attend regular math classes.

    I filled out a form to opt my daughter out of integrated math and went to the principals office. She told me in front of four other teachers “we’re trained and know better than you what’s best for your child”. That didn’t go over very well with me since I have a 172 IQ and hold patents and prior art on patents that Apple, microsoft, and Motorola hold. My uncle is an inventor and used to teach at Stanford. My step father taught at Idaho State University and my mother taught art at a high school.

    After two years Integrated math was such a failure that even LAUSD was forced to drop it. Integrated Math was created by so-called professional specialists.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  72. @72 In my district, the syllabus and books go home with the kids (our district provides a home set and a classroom set so they don’t have to haul their books back and forth), parents are welcome to review the curriculum if they want. IM1, IM2, IM3 cover all the same topics that Algebra, Geometry, and Algebra2/trig covered, they are just mixed up in a different order. I know some math teachers who like integrated math and some who really don’t. They must have been piloting the program though, because our district didn’t switch over to IM until maybe 2012 and we were in maybe the 2nd or 3rd year anyone switched over. LA is still doing IM, so maybe they didn’t implement after piloting (you usually pilot for 2 years and then choose to implement or not) until there were materials (at the very beginning there weren’t) and reimplemented later, but it’s what they use currently.

    Nic (896fdf)

  73. It seems like Elizabeth Bartholet doesn’t have a good grasp of history.

    Dr. Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence. Known as the “Father of American Medicine.” A founding member of America’s first Bible Society and is credited with helping begin the American Sunday School movement. He helped organize America’s first Anti-Slavery society and was a leader in the national abolition movement. He held multiple university professorships, and had been referred to as “The Father of Public Schools Under the Constitution,” since he was an advocate for free public schools for all youth.

    He believed the purpose of public schools was for students to receive a sound academic education based on the Bible. This is different from modern academics who believe that the Bible should be banned from all public education. Here’s a portion of a letter Benjamin Rush wrote advocating the continued use of the Bible in public education.

    https://wallbuilders.com/defence-use-bible-schools/

    Notice that there is no”separation of church and state” in the US Constitution. If you read the arguments for the first amendment in the Congressional record you’ll noticed that religion was first proposed as religious denomination. They deleted denomination because they believed it was encapsulated in the word religion. Please refer to the youngest supreme court justice Joseph Story‘s 1833 publication of Commentaries on the Constitution which is over 900 pages in three volumes.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  74. @74 Which version of the Bible? Should we force the Catholics to obey Protestant tenants, and which protestant tenants? Should the mainline kids have to become evangelical? Should the Evangelical kids be forced to learn all the mainline rules? Maybe everyone should be forced to learn the LDS rules. Maybe all the Protestant kids should be forced to learn the Catholic ideals.

    If we taught the Bible in school it wouldn’t be your personal interpretation of the Bible, it would be, for example, mine. Do you really want me teaching your kids my personal interpretation of the Bible? I mean, I could, I’ve read it a couple of times and studied under a reasonably well known biblical scholar, but do you really really want that?

    Nic (896fdf)

  75. All the founding fathers learned how to read by reading the Bible. They also learned moral character from things like the 10 Commandments, parables, and other stories in the Bible. Most of the Bible is simply history and proven history at that. Thomas Jefferson actually created a version of the Bible that only had moral stories in them for the purpose of teaching morality. It wasn’t that he didn’t respect the Bible. It’s just that he didn’t want people to get bogged down with history, but to learn morality.

    Your beef shouldn’t be with me, but with Benjamin Rush. I don’t have the answers.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  76. @76 There are different selections of books in the Bible depending on which denomination you belong to. The 10 commandments are numbered slightly differently. Different translations can change the meaning of various stories. There isn’t “A Bible” there are a variety of versions of the Bible.

    Nic (896fdf)

  77. They used three books: The New England Primer; the Bible which at that time would have been the King James Version; and Pilgrim’s Progress by John Bunyan. Those were relatively common. If you wanted to expand your horizons, there were other books but they were hard to find and expensive when you found them. Or at least that’s what I was taught in grade school.

    nk (1d9030)

  78. Public school is child abuse.
    You can always tell a harvard man, you just can’t tell him much.

    mg (8cbc69)

  79. @79 If one is campaigning to use the Bible in school today, however, there are many English versions.

    @80 I’m afraid that Harvard is a private university.

    Nic (896fdf)

  80. If one is campaigning to use the Bible in school today

    No, no, I was responding specifically to your 7678 exchange with Taney.

    nk (1d9030)

  81. 76 — 78

    nk (1d9030)

  82. Sorry Dave,

    Supporting Maoists is not a good idea.

    Uselessness springs from the asses of Useful Idiots…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  83. The left love them some
    Public school teacher unions
    But hate the parents

    The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1)

  84. From Hahvahd there was an old teacher
    Whose pedigree was her main feature
    Degrees she could boast
    But her mind was just toast
    And she was a nasty old creature.

    The Dana in Kentucky (a2adc1)

  85. @82. Ah. I think we were talking past eachother then. I was extrapolating from #74 regarding teaching the bible in school today.

    @85 Take it up with the local school board. Teacher’s unions are local and contracts are generally negotiated locally.

    Nic (896fdf)

  86. Supporting Maoists is not a good idea.

    Uselessness springs from the asses of Useful Idiots…

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/22/2020 @ 8:22 am

    Such good faith. Such sincere hope for productive conversation.

    Yeah Dave stop supporting Chairman Mao! You know, like Donald Trump ACTUALLY has with the Tienamnmen Square “strength” in his words.

    Dustin (c56600)

  87. Two Americas
    one’s receiving a paycheck
    the other is not

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  88. Here’s another resource on the Harvard article. Harvard Law Prof Wants to Ban Homeschooling, Why She Is Wrong

    This article also has links to studies that show homeschooling is at least no worse and often times better than public schools.

    BTW. I was a single dad and when the public schools failed I couldn’t homeschool so I sent my children to a religious private school where they did well.The public schools that they went to before were magnet schools for gifted students. Their results weren’t encouraging

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  89. Colonel Haiku,

    I wish there was a way to like comments on this site. If there was I would be liking a whole bunch of your comments. I know I can copy and paste and say good job, but with Parkinson’s that’s a little difficult.

    So here I am using dictation to say thank you.

    Tanny O'Haley (8a06bc)

  90. Thank you, Tanny! I feel the same about yours and wish you would do it more often.

    Colonel Haiku (2601c0)

  91. @89. ‘Free market capitalism’ not truly free?

    Pshaw!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  92. @90 I read your link and it is a summary of a legal argument cum lit review from a legal, rather than educational viewpoint, that in the end says basically the same thing I did when you break it down through looking at the articles it cites, more educated, dedicated parents get better achievement in home school. The lit review it cites as it’s primary source is not an actual study itself, but a summary of other research, and many of the articles it cites are summaries of other people’s research. When they did cite research, they often used very very small studies of under 60 people (and in one of which 20% of the parents were certified teachers). The broad study they used of 20,000_+ participants was very skewed to students with more educated parents. They also noted that they had not looked into any conflicting research. It’s a fine legal argument, but the data backing it up doesn’t make a strong case if you know what you are looking at.

    Nic (896fdf)

  93. They will fight it, as if their work lives depend on it.

    Which they may well do.

    Colonel Haiku (7caebd)


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