White House Issues Stronger Guidelines To Limit Spread of Coronavirus
[guest post by Dana]
This morning, President Trump issued updated guidelines to limit the spread of coronavirus:
“My administration is recommending that all Americans, including the young and healthy, work to engage in schooling from home when possible, avoid gathering in groups of more than ten people, avoid discretionary travel and avoid eating and drinking in bars, restaurants, and public food courts,” Trump said. “If everyone makes this change or these critical changes and sacrifices now, we will rally together as one nation and we will defeat the virus, and we are going to have a big celebration altogether. With several weeks of focused action, we can turn the corner and turn it quickly — a lot of progress has been made.”
[…]
“It’s important for the young and healthy people to understand that while they may experience milder symptoms, they can easily spread this virus and they will spread it indeed, putting countless others in harm’s way,” Trump said.
Asked by a reporter how long it would last, Trump replied, “people are talking about July, August, something like that.” He said he likes to say it “washes through” but “other people don’t like that term.”
Further:
The guidelines say that “In states with evidence of community transmission, bars, restaurants, food courts, gyms, and other indoor and outdoor venues where groups of people congregate should be closed.”
Dr. Anthony Fauci stepped in to clarify that the new guidelines pertain to a 15 day trial period:
‘The guidelines are over a 15 day-trial guideline,’ Fauci said and then will be reconsidered. ‘The president was saying that the trajectory of the outbreak may go until then, make sure you don’t think that it’s solid in stone until July’ for the guidelines.
Trump also addressed questions about quarantines and a nationwide lockdown:
President Trump said a nationwide quarantine was not being considered “at this point.”
But he said “we may look at certain areas, certain hot spots, as they call them.”
Asked “Are you considering instituting a nationwide lockdown, a nationwide quarantine? There are still some questions about that,’ Trump then responded: “At this point, not nationwide. But there are some, you know, places in our nation that are not very effective at all but we may, we may look at certain areas, certain hot spots as they call them. We’ll be looking at that. But, at this moment, no we are not.”
Text message rumors of a national #quarantine are FAKE. There is no national lockdown. @CDCgov has and will continue to post the latest guidance on #COVID19. #coronavirus
— NSC (@WHNSC) March 16, 2020
Yesterday, the CDC issued new guidelines, including but not limited to:
Large events and mass gatherings can contribute to the spread of COVID-19 in the United States via travelers who attend these events and introduce the virus to new communities. Examples of large events and mass gatherings include conferences, festivals, parades, concerts, sporting events, weddings, and other types of assemblies. These events can be planned not only by organizations and communities but also by individuals.
Therefore, CDC, in accordance with its guidance for large events and mass gatherings, recommends that for the next 8 weeks, organizers (whether groups or individuals) cancel or postpone in-person events that consist of 50 people or more throughout the United States.
Events of any size should only be continued if they can be carried out with adherence to guidelines for protecting vulnerable populations, hand hygiene, and social distancing. When feasible, organizers could modify events to be virtual.
This recommendation does not apply to the day to day operation of organizations such as schools, institutes of higher learning, or businesses. This recommendation is made in an attempt to reduce introduction of the virus into new communities and to slow the spread of infection in communities already affected by the virus. This recommendation is not intended to supersede the advice of local public health officials.
Also, here is an round-up of coronovirus news throughout the world.
Several states have primaries tomorrow. Ohio’s governor is now calling to extend the state’s primary elections scheduled for Tuesday to June 2. Illinois State Board of Elections announced that the state was “proceeding with plans for tomorrow’s primary as scheduled.” No word yet from Arizona and Florida, who also have primary voting schduled for tomorrow.
Bottom line:
Dr. Anthony Fauci calls on Americans to take the new coronavirus guidelines in social distancing “very seriously.”
“They will fail if people don’t adhere to them,” Fauci says, calling on the “whole country” to “cooperate and collaborate.” https://t.co/1wEDgf5m4I pic.twitter.com/ovwYiejn4H
— ABC News Politics (@ABCPolitics) March 16, 2020
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (4fb37f) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:15 pmNo races worth my vote/exposure, either in strong support or “cockblocking” worse in favor of bad…which would not have been the case last year in the old apartment, located in swingier districts.
urbanleftbehind (326f0e) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:26 pmurbanleftbehind (326f0e) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:26 pm
Oddly, I’ve never thought of you as a swinger…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:42 pmIf a government wanted to crack down on her people, what would it do differently?
Grocery stores are still mobbed. Best way of passing the bug.
NJRob (253c67) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:49 pmIf you think you get some conspiracy…stuff here every once in a while. Use incognito mode and look at Redstate. The insanity is powerful. Krazy…stuff.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:50 pmWell, it’s not the best way.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:53 pmWent out to get lunch today.
My favorite El Pollo Loco (no drive-thru) was extremely crowded, so I decided to look elsewhere.
The dining room was closed at the next place I went; grabbed drive-thru, which I never do. Welcome to the new normal, I guess.
Over the weekend CERN, in Geneva, moved into their final, “Level 3” tier of preventative measures. Now, nobody is allowed on-site except a skeleton crew of safety and maintenance personnel to keep the equipment running. Our graduate student, who arrived there in mid-February, is working out of her apartment and seems to be in good spirits.
My class’s final exam is tomorrow, it was only a week before that we found out it would be taken remotely. An non-negligible fraction of the students are freaking out; I think a majority are taking it in stride, though.
Tomorrow will also mark five days since I was on campus and around significant numbers of people for the last time in the foreseeable future.
Dave (1bb933) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:01 pmApparently, a significant factor in South Korea’s dealing with CoViD-19 is their use of an anti-malarial against the bug which has met with some success. It’s a relatively cheap drug here, too. So how come we’re not parcelling it out to at-risk populations? Instead, we’re inconveniencing the least-at-risk populations: the young and healthy.
Anyone stop to think of what might happen if the election turnout is depressed? I used to think people that feared a cancelled presidential election were just conspiracy nuts, but now I’m beginning to wonder.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:33 pmI’m not saying it’s a conspiracy of any sort, but have you noticed that the Dow drops significantly every time our prisident makes a pronouncement that everything relating to COVID-19 is really well managed because of his actions.
John B Boddie (286277) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:34 pmOr they hear his words, and the ridiculousness of them shatters their confidence. You can test this by listening to him talk…yep, Hanlon’s razor.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:36 pmI’ve been very busy these last few days (I work in Healthcare IT)… but, I gotta air this out.
The Trump administration has been steady-eddy fine with this, taking measured responses so far.
Especially because of Azar, Mnuchin & Pence.
Folks simply looking to politicized this are the worse kinds of hacks in the realms of politics.
Yes, there were some misstep earlier on and yes there may be future misstep. But no one is going to get this right the first time, and as Dr Fauci alluded too, they’re making measured responses and observe in 15 days chunks, adjusting policies as needed.
If anything, those earlier missteps highlights the futility of having the Federal government being the end-all, be-all to save us…regardless of which party is in power. It will be the local entities that is going to help us weather the storm and get through this.
It was our regulatory environment that caused many of these hurdles. We had existing flu protocol built for surveillance, not mass testing. But much of those hurdles has been fixed with approvals being done in record time for faster tests, private labs and vaccine trials. The CDC and state labs were never going to be able to do the amount of testing the situation demands, considering that the CDC has had a capacity to do 40-60 a day.
Developing a high throughput test was only going to be initiated when the situation demands and it was developed by the PRIVATE sector.
Also keep in mind that there are already three medications in use now that appear to help reduce much of the symptoms and speeds recovery. As we get more experience with these cases we may develop additional therapeutic regimens.
The Public Health Command, Surgeon General, Dr. Fauci and Dr. Birx are all candid, professional and if you’re paying attention, they do a great job of putting things in laymen terms. The Trump administration is also clear that the Feds and State are increasing the level of strategic assets and removing barriers so that the public has every tool at the nation’s disposal.
I’ve largely tuned out the news sites and stuck mainly with my work’s ongoing communications and the Whitehouse daily updates. If I had to pay attention to any news site/publications… I would lose my bleep over the overt disinformation or benign ignorance.
whembly (c30c83) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:41 pmMy mom set a trap for my brother, and he took the bait.
As I’ve mentioned before, my mother is 88, with a major underlying condition, so I’ve been concerned for her safety.
She has a hard time saying no to my brother, who lives in an adjacent county but uses my mom’s house like it’s his own. She didn’t want to tell him directly to stop coming around, so she talked about how her friend (whom my brother despises) didn’t think the corona virus was a big deal. My brother promptly launched into a rant about how my mom’s friend was full of sh*t, and went on about all the dangers. After he was done, my mom suggested that, in light of the danger, it would be a good idea if she were isolated for the foreseeable future. My brother had no choice but to consent to this arrangement.
norcal (a5428a) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:47 pmI love sarcasm, that was hilarious.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:48 pm12. Whatever physical limitations she may be laboring under, your mom sounds like a really sharp woman. 🙂
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:55 pm@4: If a government wanted to crack down on her people, what would it do differently?
Well, it would do the same things, but slower. This is the super-fast, “grab ’em by the you-know-what” version of a totalitarian assertion of power. It’s possible this time because “the people” (a term that certainly no longer means what it meant when Jefferson used it) are begging for tyranny, a big strong Daddy to save them from the evil Virus of Doom.
“But we might get sick!” “But many people will die because of this virus!” “But we have to do something!”
So do it, voluntarily, as free people.
In America’s ancient history, Patrick Henry said, “Give me liberty or give me death!” Of course, we all know he was just talking about facing an army with swords and guns — nothing so frightening as a bad flu virus, after all.
This is one of the scariest moments of my lifetime, with a trajectory that promises to make it the absolute scariest. But my fears are not caused by the virus — and yes, I live in the middle of the damned thing, in Korea — but by the incredible lack of backbone and dignity of an entire “advanced” world willing the demise of its noblest traditions and principles in the name of something as quixotic and absurd as trying stop some people from catching a bad flu bug.
During your universal quarantine, since you won’t have much else to do, I recommend that you take the time to read or re-read Brave New World, especially those chapters in which the World Controller explains the historical mechanisms that made the rise of the World State possible. The people, having resisted such extreme authority many times, finally succumbed due to panic in the face of disease and civil unrest. They begged for absolute authority out of fear and a tired craving for “safety” and “stability.”
The Americans who criticized Trump for supposedly not doing enough to fight this pandemic last week might live to regret that. Trump is exactly the sort of vainglorious, unprincipled man who would do anything, without restraint, to win public approval. Exerting draconian powers would not bother him in the least, if he thought his fans were begging him to do it.
Am I saying the virus isn’t real? No. I am saying many viruses are real, like this one. Getting sick is part of human existence. Our vulnerability to the vicissitudes of Mother Nature is inseparable from life itself. Hundreds of thousands of people die from the flu every year, most of them people who are very old or otherwise unhealthy — just as is true with this virus. We have no idea how many people have it now. Stop listening to the media’s breathless citing of the numbers of “confirmed cases” as if they meant anything. Those who have it — the overwhelming majority of them — will develop antibodies to fight it, so that it will become weaker, as happens with all such viruses once they get around.
The saddest part of the current dynamic is that whenever the outbreak has finally passed, or the virus become less dangerous due to widespread immunity, those who asserted draconian powers in a silly fantasy that they could “stop it” will claim credit for having “defeated the coronavirus,” and ask to be re-elected for their tyranny. And people, sucked up in this media fury for months, will believe it, and actually reward and re-elect people who treated them as chattel during a flu outbreak, calling them heroes and saviors.
Daren Jonescu (2f5857) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:57 pmColonel Klink @13,
I’m glad you liked it.
My mother has a very sharp mind. If you spoke with her on the phone, you would think she was in her fifties or sixties, not 88.
Here’s another story about my brother.
He frequently complains to my mom about his misfortunes. Once he was complaining about being lonely and having no girlfriend. My mom may have suggested that he pray about it. Well, lo and behold, before too long he found a girlfriend. Soon thereafter, however, my brother began to vent to my mom about how his girlfriend was deficient in some way or another. My mom then said, “Next time pray for somebody perfect.”
norcal (a5428a) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:57 pmInteresting conversation w/Scripps medical center this afternoon. Given the situation, family decided to reschedule a routine doctor visit on the 25th back 30 days into April as a precaution for the 89 year old given the bug-a-boo in the air. Scripps said they are suggesting to all March/April patients to move scheduled appointments into May as they see things developing. So they have a better fix at ground level on this than Mikey and his crew.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:00 pm@4. Grocery stores are still mobbed. Best way of passing the bug.
Especially by a coughing beaner who’ll end up in the ER.
Grocery run report. Finally managed to get through one, mid-afternoon. Less overt panic but still a definitive sense of concern in the air. Some brutal realities. Store hours restricted- 8 to 8. I’m suited up w/mask and gloves like a nerd reporting for work at the lunar lab. The local bug spreading beaners casually shopping were not.
Chatted w/a teacher who was also fitted out w/mask and gloves– said kids out of school three weeks and she gets full pay plus overtime as registrar if called in. Said the schools are feeding kids and families regardless given the need if they show up as in many cases, it’s the kid’ main meal of their day. [No doubt any fresh food would go bad anyway so put it to use.] Said she had family working as paramedics and in a local hospital; said her family indicated the system as set up is unprepared and weeks behind; suggested she not go out for a week or two. Said the country should be locked down for a few weeks as well.
No TP. No paper towels. No paper napkins. No fresh meat– fresh chicken, fresh steak or fresh ground beef [frozen burger patties and bagged chicken parts plentiful.] No bread. No rice. No french fries – but plenty of bags of ‘Tater Tots.’ No pasta product varieties or pasta sauces. Nearly all frozen pizza gone; same w/t frozen lasagna as well. Frozen entrees available but limited varieties. Bottled water nearly gone; soda pop still available; booze, too. But no bottled juices. No condensed canned soup– they cut the price to 15-17 cents/can to help out– shelves cleaned out of every soup, name brand and aftermarket, even lousy lentil. Canned tuna fish cleaned out as well. No peanut butter– but plenty of jams and jellies. No canned veggies left–except green beans… [go figure.] Got the last can of baked beans. Fresh veggies plentiful but no big bags of potatoes or prepared salad packs. Plenty of apples and oranges– seems to be a run on bananas, though. Ice cream, milk and butter available– but eggs and cheese varieties were scarce. Plenty of pet food, coffee and cereals– but very few boxes of crackers left.
People seem to be adjusting well but any elderly shoppers appear to be genuinely dazed which is sad to see- but they at least are wearing muffs and masks. The store manager and checker both said they expect only partial shipments and that a ‘lockdown’ is coming.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:07 pmWe cross posted, I was actually referring to #11.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:08 pmJenifer rubin: more trump supporters will die then democrats!”
social security yes (ecd6b4) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:19 pmPoor Jen dropped her basket some time back.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:45 pm@16 You mom sounds like a woman with alota moxie.
Nic (896fdf) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:51 pmI’ve been happy with the recent White House messaging. I also think if Trump hadn’t started out convincing all his supporters it was a hoax much less drastic measures would be needed now.
Nathan (e9b414) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:55 pmNic @16
She has tons of moxie. Like you, she was a schoolteacher. She once had a principal who went behind her back to change a student’s grade. Years later, when she found out he was running for the state legislature, she made a youtube video about the grade change. Other teachers were too afraid to state anything publicly about this clown, because they were afraid of losing their pensions. Not my mom. I don’t know if her video had any influence, but the guy didn’t win the election.
norcal (a5428a) — 3/16/2020 @ 4:58 pmDarren Jonescu,
I’m interested in knowing whether you think a public quarantine is ever necesary under any circumstances? How about during the yellow fever epidemic, or 1918 influenza epidemic, etc?
Further, is it ever better to err on the side of caution, or do concerns about government overreach negate that possibility?
Dana (4fb37f) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:02 pmMore good TDS from the NYTimes math expert:
Mara Gay
@MaraGay
Trump told governors this morning they are on their own:
“Respirators, ventilators, all of the equipment — try getting it yourselves,” Mr. Trump told the governors during the conference call, a recording of which was shared with The New York Times.
__ _
Dan Bongino
✔
@dbongino
Replying to @MaraGay
Do you EVER tell the truth?
Let us help you with the rest 👇🏻
“We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself.”
__ _
Matt Whitlock
@mattdizwhitlock
This is just an outrageous misrepresentation of a quote. You cut off right to here:
“We will be backing you, but try getting it yourselves. Point of sales, much better, much more direct if you can get it yourself”
_ _
Dan Bongino and Others Call out NYT Editor for Altering Trump Quote From Conference Call With Governors
https://www.redstate.com/sister-toldjah/2020/03/16/dan-bongino-and-others-call-out-nyt-editor-for-altering-trump-quote-from-conference-call-with-governors/
__
I guess they just trying to make sure Trump is toast in Nov.
harkin (b64479) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:06 pm_
@23 Good for her! Go your mom!
Nic (896fdf) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:12 pmIt seems like the threat of being hanged in the morning has concentrated his mind
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:21 pmwonderfullysomewhat.Grocery stores are still mobbed. Best way of passing the bug.
I did my last pre-lockdown shopping today, wearing an N95 mask. I felt silly, but did it anyhow, being over 65 and with asthma. Doctor’s orders.
Some things struck me as strange. Sure, there was no TP, hand sanitizers, bleach or dishwashing liquid. No bread, no ground beef, no bacon, no frozen or unfrozen plain chicken. Canned goods had been pretty much looted. The butcher counter was empty.
But the Pampers section was completely stocked as if no one had ever been there. I would think that, if I had an infant, I’d be more concerned about diapers than just about anything else. Also, women’s hygiene products were well-stocked, another gotta have item for some.
I guess people really are going to cave for the next two weeks. I’d expect that streaming companies are going to get new subs pretty soon. Good thing that network neutrality didn’t kills us all, because the network is going to get tested.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:31 pmWell, it’s not the best way.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 2:53 pm
I still don’t get why people think the travel ban was in error. Nobody who knows what they are talking about agrees that it was a mistake. If it’s the government’s feckless implementation, what do you expect? These aren’t the people any of us would hire to do the job, and it’s completely unrelated to Trump. Remember the Obamacare web site.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:34 pmInstead, we’re inconveniencing the least-at-risk populations: the young and healthy.
OK, Millennial.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:34 pmwhembly (c30c83) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:41 pm
Amen, brother.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:37 pmA county judge in Ohio has denied Gov. Mike DeWine’s request to reschedule the state primaries because of coronavirus.
The governor had claimed that:
Dana (4fb37f) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:38 pm@29. It was imposed a little late– the bug was already here and being community passed– just not being ‘identified’ very fast. But had it been implemented back in December and rigidly maintained, it would certainly have reduced the potential size of the anticipate ‘wave’ the governors are freaking out about. Patterico is right about that– it’s likely gonna spike and the system as currently structured is almost certainly going to be overwhelmed– for how long is what is left hanging. Hence the uncertainties and fear festering in the markets.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:41 pmThe Americans who criticized Trump for supposedly not doing enough to fight this pandemic last week might live to regret that. Trump is exactly the sort of vainglorious, unprincipled man who would do anything, without restraint, to win public approval. Exerting draconian powers would not bother him in the least, if he thought his fans were begging him to do it.
And GOOD. We have a system designed to thwart long-term tyranny by frequent elections and the DEMAND that our leaders submit to the popular will. I know that some hate that, and see populism as some kind of aberration, when in fact it’s the corrective force of Democracy.
Just as the Invisible Hand of capitalism works to the public interest, so does the Invisible Hand of democracy guide the self-serving people who are attracted to power and fame.
Woo the F do you think WROTE our Constitution but the members of the Hellfire Club. They knew just who each of them were, and set up a system to thwart people like themselves.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:42 pmIt wasn’t the ban, it was the chaos at customs that the announcement caused. It was 100% predictable, thousands of people standing in a huge queue for hours, is just silly. Even when they make a good decision, they implement it in the dumbest possible way. The buck stops somewhere, does Trump’s diminution of the risk for the last 8 weeks not matter?
Bad implementation of a website is a bit of mis-comparison.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:43 pmChinese business magnate Jack Ma to ship 500,000 testing kits and 1 million masks to the U.S.:
Dana (4fb37f) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:44 pm@29. It was imposed a little late– the bug was already here and being community passed– just not being ‘identified’ very fast. But had it been implemented back in December
Well, Trump’s time machine was on the fracking blink, because the Chinese didn’t fess up until well into January, and even then pretended it was no big deal. If it was already here, it’s because the Chinese lied to us. I hope we sue them, win and forfeit all their bonds.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:45 pm30. Try again. I’m in my 40s.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:46 pm@28. Same here. Exactly the same plan. We’re figuring no more ‘errand’ trips out for at least a week.
I had good discussion w/some Scripps personnel today and they really seem to be prepared to field this as best they can at ‘street level.’ Frankly, it was much more reassuring than listening to Mikey and crew.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:47 pmAnd a roll of duck tape for Trump’s mouth, please, Mr. Ma. Every time the orange speaks on TV, people panic.
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:47 pmIt wasn’t the ban, it was the chaos at customs that the announcement caused. It was 100% predictable, thousands of people standing in a huge queue for hours, is just silly.
It’s their own damn fault. They were told “don’t travel” and “danger” and stuff like that. They ignored it. Screw ’em. Lucky we let them back in at all.
As for the incredible clusterfrack, I spent 3 hours in a Customs line in L.A. a number of years back for no reason I could see other than they were understaffed. When you more their cheese it gets worse. It’s never good.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:50 pmYou call mandatory lockdowns, labeling people who go out in public “non-compliant,” and effectively criminalizing self-determination and freedom of association (for people guilty of nothing) “erring on the side of caution”?
I didn’t say it was a good idea to go around risking contaminating people. I live in Korea, and I wear a mask every day, have stopped almost all social meetings with more than one person, never enter a restaurant or busy store. I do all of this voluntarily, as does pretty much everyone else here. Because that’s what “erring on the side of caution” actually means. It’s about personal choices and responsibility.
Handing dictatorial powers to governments — not in a wartime survival crisis, but during a flu outbreak that has proven not to be nearly as bad as first feared, except in the world of news media titillation — is erring not on the side of caution, but on the side of suicidal folly.
Donald Trump is publicly telling Americans that if they don’t comply with his “guidance,” he’ll have to crack down harder and force them to do so. That means he has already assumed the authority to do so.
Are you sanguine with that kind of unlimited authority in the hands of Donald Trump? How about the senile Joe Biden? How about the communist Bernie Sanders?
And how about yourself, since this is the core issue in a limited republic: If someone gave you that authority to coercively control every person in your country, “for his own good,” would you take that authority and run with it?
Daren Jonescu (2f5857) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:50 pmA county judge in Ohio has denied Gov. Mike DeWine’s request to reschedule the state primaries because of coronavirus.
This massively disenfranchises older Americans, in the exact same way that people pretend that voter ID disenfranchises blacks.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:53 pm30. Try again. I’m in my 40s.
Sorry, but as you might suspect I don’t care who is inconvenienced by avoiding gross negligence. It’s like driving drunk to me.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:56 pmIt’s not an effing inconvenience, this is a pandemic, the young and healthy will infect the old and at risk, flooding the healthcare system, which doesn’t just impact CV-19 patients, everyone consuming healthcare suffers.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:57 pm@40.And a roll of duck tape for Trump’s mouth, please, Mr. Ma. Every time the orange speaks on TV, people panic.
Well, the Fake News NY Times pegged him perfectly; he’s a bystander in this.
He doesn’t like that.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:58 pmYou remember that there was this one guy, Donald something, that until a few weeks ago was telling everyone it was a hoax. If you left 3 weeks ago, it must have been fine, because that guy was saying it was fine.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:59 pmAs the saying goes: “Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.”
Dave (1bb933) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:01 pm36. Chinese business magnate Jack Ma to ship 500,000 testing kits and 1 million masks to the U.S.
Kits “Made in China.”
Told ‘ya. When will they be on the shelves at Walmart? Or out in their parking lots next to the testing tents and garden center?!?!
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:02 pmAmerica responds to Trump’s presser today.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:04 pmAm I saying the virus isn’t real? No. I am saying many viruses are real, like this one. Getting sick is part of human existence. Our vulnerability to the vicissitudes of Mother Nature is inseparable from life itself. Hundreds of thousands of people die from the flu every year, most of them people who are very old or otherwise unhealthy — just as is true with this virus.
I truly hope that no one you care about is ever turned away from an ER because “they’re too old for us to try to save.” Which is what is happening in places like Italy and the UK. I have a friend who is supposed to go into hospital next week for chemo to extend his life somewhat. I’m doubtful there is going to be a bed for him though.
When ideology and reality collide, I opt to deal with reality. This isn’t a political power grab — all the arguments are over HOW to do it, and WHEN to do it, not WHETHER to do it. And of course the usual sniping at people we don’t like. But these emergency powers have been in the government’s hands since forever. It’s just a war, or an invasion, in another realm.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:04 pmJust wait ’til the conspiracy wing-nuts hear this one…
Dave (1bb933) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:04 pmTold ‘ya. When will they be on the shelves at Walmart? Or out in their parking lots next to the testing tents and garden center?!?!
Wherever they are, I bet you that Walmart does it better than the TSA and Customs do airports.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:05 pmYou remember that there was this one guy, Donald something, that until a few weeks ago was telling everyone it was a hoax
No, he was saying that Amity had caught the little shark and it was OK to go back into the water, but OK, yeah, Trump isn’t my choice for president either. Just the same, I knew people who had been planning on going to Europe in March who changed their minds because they listened to the other people. If you get your science from Donald Trump, you deserve what you get.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:09 pmAnd how about yourself, since this is the core issue in a limited republic: If someone gave you that authority to coercively control every person in your country, “for his own good,” would you take that authority and run with it?
They’ve had that authority since forever. See “Draft, The.”
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:10 pm@53. Get this, the local news just reported the infection projection for San Diego County is 30%– that’s a million people— and the existing hospital bed count can’t handle that– though they didn’t mention if any of the military facilities were part of that count. There’s a lot of military medical facilities in the SD area.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:11 pmAnd now this: coronavirus panic spikes gun sales in San Diego County.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:20 pm“Mr. President, I would not rule out the chance to preserve a nucleus of human specimens.”
Dave (1bb933) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:26 pmHuh.
I go away for a few hours only to find another Kevin thread-jack.
Oh, well…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:35 pmToday was my last day at the Y for at least a couple weeks.
Paul Montagu (d6528e) — 3/16/2020 @ 6:58 pmMy experience at Costco today was interesting. They had a 250-person limit inside the store, so I waited outside for 10-15 minutes to get in.
Once in, it was very uncrowded and only a handful of items were sold out. I was able to get paper towels, TP and eggs, but could only buy one of each. It was all quite orderly and well thought out. It was a good way for them to handle it if you can deal with the wait.
44. If you think that “gross negligence” constitutes people who probably won’t get sick continuing to live their lives in contravention of “government recommendations,” I can’t help you.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 7:08 pmYou remember that there was this one guy, Donald something, that until a few weeks ago was telling everyone it was a hoax
And actually the hoax was the Biden commercial you got your information from, that the WaPo gave 4 Pinocchios to.
What the Biden ad showed was Trump saying “Coronavirus – this is their new hoax”
What the actual recording showed was:
“Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus. You know that, right? Coronavirus. They’re politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs, you say, ‘How’s President Trump doing?’, ‘Oh, nothing, nothing.’ They have no clue, they don’t have any clue. They can’t even count their votes in Iowa, they can’t even count. No, they can’t. They can’t count their votes. One of my people came up to me and said, ‘Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.’ That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything, they tried it over and over, they’ve been doing it since he got in. It’s all turning, they lost. It’s all turning, think of it, think of it. And this is their new hoax. But you know we did something that’s been pretty amazing. We have 15 people in this massive country and because of the fact that we went early, we went early, we could have had a lot more than that.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/13/biden-ad-manipulates-video-slam-trump/
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:01 pmBut if they’re carriers and throwing virus everywhere, they are a menace.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:05 pm63. That’s why you isolate the people at risk. Not everyone else. Scratch a “conservative,” find a grovelling pro-government lapdog, eh?
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:09 pmAt least Steve Hilton agrees with me.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:09 pm“The Last Man On Earth” starring Vincent Price (remade a couple of times with Charlton Heston and Will Smith) is free on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MGssnLkVGI
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:11 pm66. Based on the novel “I am Legend” by Richard Matheson, released in 1954. I think the version with Charlton Heston was titled “Omega Man,” and by far my favorite of the three.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:13 pmSquare the circle for me here, people. How can CoViD-19 be “10 times as lethal as the flu” (Fauci’s words, not mine) when 30% of the people that carry the virus remain asymptomatic? This kind of mixed messaging doesn’t concern anyone here? Really?!
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:18 pmThis massively disenfranchises older Americans, in the exact same way that people pretend that voter ID disenfranchises blacks.
That’s true, but…
At some point they would need to have it, and little likelihood it would be safer to do so at any other time before the convention.
Florida is holding its primary vote tomorrow, despite a whole bunch of poll workers (often retirees) who have announced they won’t be showing up. Turnout is predicted to be light.
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:19 pmFebruary 24: Trump tweeted “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA.”
February 26:Trump said: “I think every aspect of our society should be prepared. I don’t think it’s going to come to that, especially with the fact that we’re going down, not up. We’re going very substantially down, not up.” And he said: “And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.”
March 4: Trump claimed he had reversed a decision by President Barack Obama’s administration that had impeded testing for the coronavirus, saying that “the Obama administration made a decision on testing that turned out to be very detrimental to what we’re doing. And we undid that decision a few days ago so that the testing can take place in a much more accurate and rapid fashion. That was a decision we disagreed with.” He said on March 5: “They made some decisions which were not good decisions…We undid some of the regulations that were made that made it very difficult, but I’m not blaming anybody.” Oddly enough, there was no such decision by Obama, and Trump has been been president for 3 years.
March 5: Trump said, “We got hit with the virus really three weeks ago, if you think about it, I guess. That’s when we first started really to see some possible effects.” It was 6 weeks earlier, 7.5 weeks ago now.
March 6: As the number of cases and deaths in Italy rises, Trump says the number is “getting much better”
March 6: Trump said: “Anybody that wants a test can get a test. That’s what the bottom line is.”
Etc, etc, etc…All lies.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:20 pmwhembly 11:
What are they? My doctor says patients can’t get any treatments unless they are admitted to the hospital.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:23 pmWho do you think cares for those “at risk”? Almost 100% of them are the young and low risk category.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:24 pm66/67. Funny you guys would mention that tale; cam to mind a few days ago. Yeah, seen/have ’em all— ‘Omega Man’ is my personal fav. Came to mind tonight again–
Australian coronavirus vaccine goes into test production
https://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-coronavirus-vaccine-goes-into-test-production
A factory in Melbourne has started producing a test dose of a potential coronavirus vaccine which scientists will begin testing on animals this week.
Australia has a NHS. D’oh!
Tom and Rita will survive!!
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:24 pm72. Then plan accordingly, Klink. I think it’s dumb to put small businesses at risk and close schools over what is demonstrably political double-talk. The same folks who are telling us Corona is “10 times as lethal” as seasonal flu turn around and tell us, “Most people who catch this virus will not get seriously ill, if at all.” “Better to err on the side of caution,” you say? Tell me that after I lose my job because the restaurant I work in has to close down.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:28 pmWell, .01% of the symptomatic die with the flu, vs 2.0%-2.6% with CV-19.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:28 pmMary Shelley would like a word (actually a whole bunch of words) with you
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:29 pmhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Man
I read it as a teen, and don’t remember anything of it beyond the book’s ending.
Sure, I’m happy to have you lose your job over my mom dying. 1 Million times out of a million. That you even equate it, says more about you than you probably want.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:31 pm75. And at the same time, a much larger percentage of seasonal flu patients (95%+) will be symptomatic than CoViD-19 (70-75%). So I still don’t buy the “10 times as lethal” trope. Isolate the vulnerable.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:31 pm77. I don’t know your mom. I will probably never meet your mom. I have absolutely no reason at this point in my life to set foot inside of a hospital or nursing home. I’m pretty sure I’m not part of the problem.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:32 pmSheep. What a bunch of sheep. SMDH…
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:34 pmSo you infect the person who does. You’re narcissism and lack of humanity is enlightening.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:36 pmYour
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:36 pm81. How many times do I have to repeat, ISOLATE THE VULNERABLE?! Jesus H. Christ, if we have to shut down the entire nation to save a few old folks….I can’t even!
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:37 pmLots, because you still lack basic logic skills. Who cares for the vulnerable pray tell? Do you want to lock them up in a place where they get no care? Please, explain the logistics with that.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:40 pmIsolating the vunerable is easy to say, hard to do.
Suppose the guy delivering prescription refills for Walgreen’s, or grocery orders for Stop n Shop, is infected but doesn’t know it yet? Or any othe other people who regularly interact with them?
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:43 pm85. I’m lacking basic logic skills, but you’re okay with being told “10 times lethal” and “most people won’t get sick” by a government that has proven itself less-than-trustworthy time and again. Okay, Boomer.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:43 pmAnd if infection rates go high, a lot of the supposedly nonvulnerable will suddenly find themselves vunerable or dead.
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:45 pmSigh. The reason for social distancing is not only to protect the vulnerable. It’s to burn out the disease. If the sick people do not pass on the disease to healthy people, then the disease will be gone once the sick people get well. Then nobody will need to be isolated.
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:45 pmAhhh, the perfect response of the illiterate, uninformed, and just plain stupid. Three things can be true.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:48 pm@85. The local officials and med teams ‘closer to the street’ have been fairly impressive around here- given the pace of the situation. What comes out of Mikey and crew in the WH Briefing Room has more to do w/quelling the fear on Wall Street than quashing the bug on Main Street.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:48 pm86. That ought to be as much of a concern during flu season as it now is with CoronaVirus, and somehow we manage just fine without putting our entire populace’s lives on hold. And by the by, to whom it may concern, my own father has been nursing a weak heart for thirteen-and-a-half years and pulmonary compromise from asthma almost his entire life. I know what it means to have family in a high-risk medical state. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be at high risk for fatality, but I got my own weak asthmatic lungs from my father. It is a matter of some concern for me on a personal level.
One thing I would like to see that doesn’t necessarily involve isolation/quarantine is the exploration of off-label antiretrovirals and other drugs that have been used with some success in other countries to tamp down Coronavirus. Someone told me that they used an anti-malarial in South Korea which might have contributed to their significantly lower fatalities, but I’m not sure exactly what the details were there.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:49 pmI understand your point, Gryph, and the UK and Netherlands were/are doing it that way. IMO it is an attempt to lessen the economic damage while still trying to protect the vulnerable.
BUt seeing what happened in Italy and Spain highlights how hard it is to identify who we should consider “vulnerable.” We can isolate everyone over 60 but the risk increases for those over 40, too, just not as much. Pregnant women? Maybe, it isn’t clear. Definitely the ill and immune-compromised, but how ill or compromised? Do we isolate every kid with asthma? And when you isolate someone, doesn’t that mean isolating their families, too?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:49 pm90. Well how about a fourth thing? We are in a national panic fueled by politicians with an agenda. Closing schools and bars won’t save your mother. A measured and reasonable response by medical professionals might.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:52 pmSuppose 100 people have disease X, and 30 of them show no symptoms, but 20 of the rest die of the disease.
Suppose 300 people have disease Y, and 6 of them die of the disease…
Then disease X is ten times more fatal than disease Y. Because the number of asymptomatic people is irrelevant to the death rates.
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:55 pm93. Italy is a poor comparison given their much older median age and large number of tourists in and around Rome and Saturnia.
And as for what constitutes a “reasonable” response? I’ve spent all of my 42 years hearing about how utterly essential government-run schools are to the education of our kids. The speed with which they were closed statewide in my home state kind of puts that to lie.
And irrespective of my status as a medical layperson, I’m pretty sure no kid with or without Asthma under the age of 10, has died of CoViD-19. The most important risk factor seems to be age, as age is the most important contributing factor to pulmonary compromise.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:58 pmStories like this indicate there is a lot we don’t know about this disease:
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:59 pm95. Well thanks for explaining that to me, Dr. Kish. Should I trust the government when they tell me they have my best interest at heart when they come for my guns, too?
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:00 pm97. There is a lot more that we know based on what happened aboard the Diamond Princess, where all of the passengers and all but 10 crew members were tested. Looks to me like our Federal Government elites are ignoring this information.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:01 pm95. And by that metric, Fauci is full of it. There are an estimated 22000-55000 deaths from flu, from October 1, 2019 to march 7, 2020 in the U.S. alone. There are 5,539 documented deaths from CoViD-19 worldwide, 41 of those in America.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:05 pmActually, asthma is one of the risks since it involves the lungs, and coronavirus targets the lungs. Plus Heart disease, Lung disease, Diabetes, High blood pressure, Cancer, MS, inflammatory bowel disease, HIV, and autoimmune and transplant patients. That is a lot of people.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:05 pmDRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 8:49 pm
And the medical staff, too.
A coworker of mine has a daughter who is a nurse in ob/gyn at the big public hospital here in Miami. Two separate women who came in to be delivered turned out to have the virus. Two of the attending physicians were infected and are now in quarantine. The nurses (including my coworker’s daughter) are mostly in isolation. So one of the biggest maternity wards in South Florida has a very limited capacity for the next couple of weeks. This hospital btw is the teaching hospital for University of Miami Med School.
My coworker’s husband has heart and lung problems, so her daughter had already planned to isolate herself from her parents (she normally lives with them). My coworker is working the fewest hours she can to limit her own exposure. I’m 60 with an autoimmune disease. I need to work, so I can’t self isolate. My job (and my coworker’s) means interacting with the public constantly. So any fool with a cough is a danger to me.
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:08 pmWell, its comforting that you’re “pretty sure”, but you still are saying dead child, and you’re OK being the one to flout the rules potentially causing only that one 10 year old with asthma dies? Kewl. Now, please go back and explain the logistics that you avoid addressing each and every time. Who, where, when, for how long, with what staff, do you isolate those vulnerable, what the scale of vulnerable that equals vulnerable enough?
Please, be specific. It’s you’re idea. I’ll I can see is step one, tell the vulnerable to isolate. Step two, magic happens. Step three, we’re cured?
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:09 pm101. Yeah, but all else being equal, the older you are the less pulmonary capacity you have. There are a lot of things that can put you at risk, but high-risk and low-risk are not necessarily binary propositions.
I would think that if you’re generally considered high-risk for flu complications, it’s a good idea to engage in social distancing. My beef is the government making it a blanket recommendation for everyone to the point where it will seriously damage the economy in ways that will take us much longer to recover from than it will take us to recover from the virus.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:10 pm103. So you are panicking. Noted.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:11 pm102. You’re high-risk and you can’t self-isolate? In what world is that my problem? I’m sure I’m not the first
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:13 pmconservativelibertarian to be accused of cold-heartedness and I won’t be the last.Oh, kishnevi, do your best and may God bless you and everyone.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:14 pmfreedom
in the middle of fear
but i have no fear
and lots of toilet paper
lightning strikes
maybe once
maybe twice
and it all comes down to you
and it all comes down to you
watch out
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:16 pmAgain, show your work.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:16 pmGryph, I am not saying it is your problem.
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:19 pmI am giving a group of real life instances that demonstrate why your “isolate the vunerable” is a silly idea.
Thank you, DRJ.
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:19 pm109. Show what work? If you’re high-risk and you know it, socially distance yourself. I thought the whole conservative movement was based on things like rugged individualism, self-reliance, and personal responsibility. I am not high-risk, ergo I am not going to put my life on hold for those who are. There is no one I wish or need to visit in a nursing home or a hospital, so I won’t go there out of ordinary courtesy. Those in nursing homes and hospitals are a large percentage of the high-risk/vulnerable, and they are largely isolated by virtue of simply being there. And I’m okay with that. Really, I am.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:21 pmIt might.
I understand being concerned about the economic impact. I don’t understand denialism about the obvious benefits of social distancing.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:22 pm110. Well I can just about guarantee you that keeping kids at home instead of in school is not going to lessen the chance that they will pass Coronavirus on to their grandparents. I happen to think that closing restaurants and bars is equally silly for the same reason. You need to keep potential carriers away from high-risk populations, and instead what we’re doing is keeping them away from each other.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:22 pm113. I don’t think the benefits of social distancing are that obvious, Pat. See post 114, but I’ll say it again: We need to keep potential carriers away from high-risk individuals, and instead we’re keeping them away from each other. Closing schools won’t make kids less likely to pass the virus on to their grandparents.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:24 pmCan you guarantee that you won’t contract the virus, and pass it to another person who ends up infecting a vulnerable person? Of course you can’t. Where is the “responsibility” in killing people who will never know you are at fault and are thus unable to hold you accountable?
You asked me in a different thread if I thought less of you because you are refusing to socially distance. I’ll put it this way: I think you are making a bad mistake that may jeopardize the lives of innocent people.
This disease will touch someone you know, and probably sooner than you think. It’s coming and it’s coming quickly.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:29 pmYeah, but keeping potential carriers away from high-risk individuals means keeping potential carriers away from any other potential carriers because if you don’t, high-risk individuals will get it.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:31 pmLook: as often happens on the Internet, I can tell there is zero chance of convincing you that you are wrong — even though here, it means I am failing to convince you how you are putting innocent people at risk. I am still having the discussion for the benefit of onlookers who may be persuadable, when you clearly are not. It’s important, and the fact that it’s important is a fact whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:33 pmThose in nursing homes and hospitals are a large percentage of the high-risk/vulnerable, and they are largely isolated by virtue of simply being there. And I’m okay with that. Really, I am.
Unless those places have no staff, they are not in the least bit isolated.
Kishnevi (80558c) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:33 pmQuite correct.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:35 pmClosing schools won’t make kids less likely to pass the virus on to their grandparents.
Closing your restaurant won’t make it less likely for you to pass your money on to Amazon.
Oh, what’s that you say? You have no money to pass on to Amazon because you did not get a paycheck and no tips? How come? No customers to give you and the restaurant money? Oh!
If the kids don’t pick up the virus from other kids, they won’t have a virus to pass on to their grandparents.
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:35 pmBingo!
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:37 pm116, 117. And what if it’s all tilting at windmills? What if there are things we could be doing to effectively flatten the curve, but we’re not doing them because of some politician’s agenda? Your assertion that I am making a mistake is predicated on the idea that social distancing will flatten the curve. Even if that is the case (and I’m not sure it is), there will still be innocents that catch the disease anyway. And that innocent might still be your loved one.
As Thomas Sowell is so fond of pointing out, risk is an odd concept. So many people are so risk-averse, they won’t even stop to give any thought about the cost of abating that risk or where a point of diminishing return might exist. I am not talking about my personal comfort, or my desire to go out drinking and carousing with my buddies. My livelihood could be at stake here just as the lives of some high-risk individuals may be — among them my own dad. And so here we are. People showing just as much disregard for my financial security as I am showing for their old and ill loved ones. America. What a country!
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:39 pm121, 122. Yeah, cause schools are the only place that kids will come into contact with other kids. And they can only get the virus by getting it from other kids. SMDH…
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:40 pmGryph, two questions:
1. Let’s assume that the reason known Coronavirus carriers are quarantined is to protect others. Do you think it would be legally and morally right to compel quarantine of a carrier if s/he refused to isolate?
2. If you answered Yes to 1, we know we can’t identify who is a carrier until they may have already infected others. How is this any different than the carrier in 1? Isn’t there at least a moral responsibility to isolate to avoid infecting others?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:42 pm119. Not in the least bit, huh? In years past, nursing homes in my home town have locked down and limited visitation for seasonal flu. When I say that nursing home residents are isolated by virtue of being there, I am specifically speaking of covid-19 lockdowns. Every nursing home here is enforcing social distancing of their high-risk residents. Are there some that aren’t yet? That’d be news to me.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:44 pmInteresting short twitter stream from a 39 year old diabetic apparently from Bay Area who got knocked pretty hard by it after self-medicating for over a week as it got worse.
Money quote: “Don’t sleep on this thing people”
https://twitter.com/jwdaddy80/status/1239704023998984193?s=20
harkin (b64479) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:47 pm_
125. Moral responsibility? Only if you know you are a carrier, and only to whatever degree necessary to avoid getting high-risk individuals sick. The problem I have with the “moral responsibility” trope is that this new strain of coronavirus is exceedingly difficult to test for, and herd immunity from mass inoculation, though possible, is still a major uncertainty. If we could test for antibodies somehow rather than having to test for RNA sequences, it would be much easier to establish a pattern of immunity and determine how quickly CoViD-19 will burn itself out — or if indeed it will.
I view my moral responsibility as avoiding nursing homes and hospitals as much as I am able. I have been a little uncomfortable as of late visiting my parents given Dad’s medical difficulties, but I have been helping them around the house since my mom had her knee replaced back in January. And Dad encourages it.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:50 pmYou clearly believe you have a moral responsibility to avoid nursing homes. Why limit it to old folks since so many other people are at risk? Is it moral to do only what is convenient for you?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:55 pmYour assertion that I am making a mistake by driving drunk is predicated on the idea that not driving drunk lowers highway fatalities. But you haven’t heard my killer response yet: Even if I don’t drive drunk, innocent people will still be at risk on the roads. (Didn’t see that one coming, did you?) And one of those people might be your loved one.
So I’ll be driving drunk on the roads. I’m “not sure” it’s a problem anyway.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:56 pmWhere immunity is concerned, let me bring up a hypothetical here.
Elderly individuals who have never had chickenpox are at a sharply increased risk of complications from chickenpox if they are in contact with someone who has never had it but catches it. Even if patient zero is young and has a rather mild case, that does not preclude the possibility of complications in the elderly should it be passed along. As far as this goes, this appears to be the case with CoViD-19, albeit with a much longer incubation period.
With chickenpox, however, if you have already had it, you can’t catch it again. Having that particular disease confers a lifetime immunity and would make an individual a better candidate for contact with someone who has never had it and is at a higher risk for complications. Is this also true of coronavirus? Maybe. We don’t know for sure. But it is definitely possible. Gotta figure out a way to find those pesky antibodies before we can know for sure one way or the other.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:56 pm130. You know exactly what the increased risk is to yourself and your loved ones by driving drunk. The increased risk by failure to socially isolate is ultimately an unknown. Your argument in the case of CoViD-19 ultimately rests on, “We need to err on the side of judgement to save an unknown number of lives.” A proposition I wholly reject.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 9:59 pm129. I said nursing homes and hospitals. I’ve been spending less time with my parents, but Dad wants me to keep coming over to help mom until she gets back on her feet all the way. He is placing himself at risk by allowing me and my brother to come over, but it is a risk I consider informed and well within Dad’s rights. Beyond that, if someone feels uncomfortable with my rather lackadaisical approach to social distancing, they are free to socially distance themselves from me.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:02 pmThe latest from Baylon-on-Potomac…
Where does it end? At what point does the cost cross the point of unacceptably diminishing returns?
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:04 pmMoral responsibility? I just don’t want those icky cooties on me or my loved ones. It’s pure selfishness. Let them go find a pangolin or a bat or something, the little freeloaders.
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:04 pm129. I live in a city of nearly 30,000 individuals. I can’t isolate myself from everyone with any degree of pulmonary compromise. But whoever doesn’t feel comfortable around me is free to socially distance themselves from me. I pay the cost that I feel is most affordable for myself to do the greatest amount of good I am able to do.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:06 pmSet aside whether you might infect your parents. They can assume that risk because you are honest with them about your decisiins. But don’t you want to try to avoid getting sick (even mildly sick) and then you won’t be able to help them at all? Staying healthy isn’t just good for you or for society, it means you can help them during what may be a long, difficult few months.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:11 pm137. I’m in my early forties. I’m not exactly healthy as a horse anymore, but I’m not in the CDC’s high-risk category (age 60 and above). I was going to accompany my mother to her visit to her orthopedist tomorrow until Dad pointed out to me that being at the hospital probably wasn’t such a good idea. I reluctantly agreed with him and wrote out a list of questions for Mom to ask at her appointment.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:14 pm137. I should stipulate that I’m not high-risk based on age. I do have a mild pulmonary compromise, being an asthmatic and all.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:16 pmhttps://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/03/study-high-temperature-and-humidity-reduce-transmission-of-coronavirus.php
High temps to the rescue?
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:21 pmEveryone will decide for themselves what isolating means to them. Some will stay home 24/7; some will only run essential errands for food and medicines; some will continue to work but limit other activities; and some may not want to change anything. But there will be changes whether we want them or not. We don’t know how to stop this and it is human nature to try to stop bad things from happening.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:23 pm140. Time to move to Arizona?
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:25 pmFor those who support the idea of shutting every thing down via government order versus individual choice, isn’t this the same argument that leftists make over gun control and soon to be the freedom of movement via driving?
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:29 pmExactly, DRJ. It’s not a philosophical question (although it may be a psychological one). We’re all going to do what necessity and our nature direct us to do.
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:29 pm143. Yeah, it is Rob. Thank you for pointing that out. I would also like to point out that as far as I can tell, that is not what Pat is advocating for. It is, however, what Anthony Fauci is advocating for and I think this is the Federal Government’s endgame.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:31 pmFor those who support the idea of shutting every thing down via government order versus individual choice, isn’t this the same argument that leftists make over gun control and soon to be the freedom of movement via driving?
It’s also the same argument conservatives make over abortion, illicit drug use, and heavy metal records played backwards. (Ok, that last may not be a thing anymore.)
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:34 pmWe will always return to the “essential liberty versus temporary safety” argument. It’s a tough question and most will opt for safety, women moreso than men.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:37 pmGryph, if you suffer from asthma you are high-risk. Start social distancing now before it’s too late. You could easily end up on a ventilator — if there are still enough to go around.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:37 pmI do think concern about the economy is legit. Also concern about how a nation of shut-ins treats each other. Let’s support one another like the great examples we have seen from Italy.
Gryph, I like you and I care about you and I care about the people who might be innocent people who intersect with people who intersect with you. For your own sake and that of the innocents, think about this again.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:42 pmOnly a few will have police outside their door forcing them to quarantine. We agreed on our form of government, including giving that government emergency powers. I am fine with revisiting whether those powers should be curtailed, just as we rethink the powers given to government after 9/11 and other times of turmoil.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:42 pmBut now is the time to think about protecting ourselves and our families.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:43 pmDRJ,
individual responsibility versus coerced behavior.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/16/2020 @ 10:57 pmIt is a hard call but can you say you know what the government is doing is unnecessary, Rob?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:02 pm@144 This endgame argument seems to be at the heart of your skepticism. What exactly do you think is going on other than a serious worldwide pandemic with the capacity to kill a lot of people? If this is a plan by the US federal government to get more power why did China lockdown several cities and essentially collapse their economy? For that matter why is the EU?
frosty (f27e97) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:06 pmEven if the government took no action, I would still encourage people to self-isolate. It is the smart thing to do. Ignore the politics. Be smart.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:06 pmWhy closing schools can be helpful:
Jordan is in kindergarten. He’s 5. He gets it from Sally at school, whose mom’s best friend just came back from a cruise. Sally didn’t have any symptom’s, Jordan doesn’t have any symptoms. He gives it to his Julie, who just gets a little tired, but why would she notice that, she’s a single mom with 2 kids working 2 jobs. One of Julie’s jobs is in retail. She serves all kinds of customers. One is a doctor, one is a dentist, two are CNAs at the local nursing home. She infects all of them. The dentist infects 10 people in a variety of health circumstances. The doctor infects 5 who all have poor health. The CNAs infect 20 elderly people. Each.
Nic (896fdf) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:08 pmIt’s puzzling to me how people can be infected but have no symptoms.
For the virus to reproduce and persist, it has to destroy cells.
Dave (1bb933) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:21 pmGiven what we know about the virus and its highly contagious nature, and recognizing that everyone’s situation is different, it makes sense to limit unnecessary contact with others as much as one can. Whether the government tells me to do that or not is irrelevant in that I’m going to make efforts to do it because it’s clearly the smart thing to do. If the government also tell me to do it, well good for them for being smart too.
The thing too, is that this isn’t just about an individual. It’s the domino effect it can have, whether one likes or not. It’s just how it is. Not everyone is able to isolate, but making an effort to do what you can – for your own sake and for others – really doesn’t seem like it’s asking too much if you are living in a community. I have a compromised immune system. I know I would certainly appreciate any efforts.
Dana (4fb37f) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:26 pmthe end game, i will tell you the end game, because i know end games
the end game is that freedom-loving mr. trump, the president who loves freedom more than you love your guns and your bibles, did not really want to do this
but the evil freedom-hating deep state, which let the chinese virus into our country in the first place, made him do it
just put his back against the wall and gave him no other choice because that’s how the deep state deep-states
that’s the end game
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:28 pmTrue. He can’t stand up to the scientists.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:38 pm@156. Brings to mind some great sci-fi; go dig up Michael Crichton’s first book, The Andromeda Strain [I read it in three days]– or watch the 1971 flick, which was quite good for the time.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:41 pmWhen will Trump pardon Flynn — on a good news day or buried in a bad news day?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:45 pm@161.- On a Fri-day.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:46 pmYeah, well, don’t go drinking Sterno, and I’m not so sure you should cry out loud until you turn blue, either.
nk (1d9030) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:50 pm@51:
Kevin M, the reason people are being turned away from ERs, and hospitals in general, in nations with wider outbreaks of this virus — such as Korea, where I live — is that everyone who tests positive and has any symptoms at all is being hospitalized, isolated in hospital, and thus allowed to become a drain on available resources when most of them could just as easily (and far more comfortably) be resting in their beds at home. The numbers on this thing just don’t warrant treating everyone who contracts it as a life-or-death emergency case. Save that treatment for the real emergency cases, and there would be beds and ERs available for those in genuine need. (I might add that you are also neglecting the harsh realities of socialized medicine in Europe, in addition to the reality of Italy’s very old population after generations of shrinking birth rates.)
This is not about “ideology” for me. Unless you mean that one’s honest beliefs about the meaning and value of human liberty go out the window when we have a mass panic, in which case you are effectively saying that “freedom” is just a flowery word for “convenient permission.” It’s precisely when freedom has a potential cost that we have the chance to ask ourselves if we really believe in freedom.
You’re right that “all the arguments are over HOW to do it, and WHEN to do it, not WHETHER to do it.” That’s a problem in my view. We ought to be having vigorous arguments about WHETHER to do it.
Your last sentence in that second quote, “It’s just a war, or an invasion, in another realm,” is flat-out false, and exactly the emotionalism of the moment that most disturbs me.
The primary purpose of government, on any theory of government grounded in the concept of individual freedom, is to protect the contracting citizens from real threats to their lives and property by other men. When government is allowed to broaden that mission without restraint to encompass any and all “threats” to life, such as viruses, personal hardships, poverty, unfair treatment, or what have you, that is no longer the government of a free and consenting citizenry.
Frankly, I’m tired of being told I am cold-hearted and don’t care about people because I don’t think national governments have any legitimate authority to force their (healthy) citizens into national “lockdown,” trampling rights and destroying livelihoods, over a flu-like virus that has proved to be far less deadly than was first believed.
Daren Jonescu (ad8e67) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:19 am@157:
That’s very fair and reasonable, Dana. You should be able to hope for that from your fellow citizens during an outbreak. As I said, that’s the norm now here in Korea. But norms and responsible citizenship should be the issue here, not whether anyone should have the right to make his or her own choices.
I hope you protect yourself, and that your neighbors are good people.
Daren Jonescu (ad8e67) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:23 amDana,
I’m way up in Reno, so chances my actions will affect you are slim, but if my giving up the gym redounds to your benefit, it will have been worth it.
norcal (a5428a) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:40 amIn the late 1980s, I was teaching junior high when the school district ordered mandatory testing for tuberculosis on all students and staff.
Everyone keeps saying that New York City has the largest school district in the country. And that may be true in terms of the number of students, because of the population density. However, tiny Edinburg has one of the largest school districts in the world, in terms of the number of miles the bus routes run. That’s because the ECISD doesn’t just serve the city, but 16 other small rural towns in the surrounding area.
There were over 2,000 students in my high school graduating class, and that was in 1979. A lot of those kids had to get on school buses at 5:00 AM, just to make it to class by 7:00 AM.
A decade later, there were more middle and high schools serving a much larger population. Anyway, the district ordered this tuberculosis test. At the time, I thought it was ridiculous, because the disease had been eradicated decades ago.
My grandmother suffered from tuberculosis in the 1940s, and hers was a severe case. The doctor told my grandfather that there was no cure, and the only remedy was lung surgery to remove infected tissue, in the hope she would survive.
Lung removal, that’s major surgery. I have no idea what it cost in 1948, but today it would cost around $400,000. My grandfather didn’t have that kind of money, but he was the bank manager. He had the key, knew the vault code, so he simply walked in late one night and took the money. Yeah, he robbed the bank and paid the doctor in cash the next morning.
What would you do? This was the love of his life, the mother of his children and his wife. He robbed the bank to save her life. Incredibly, she survived the operation. She was bedridden for fourteen years, but ultimately she outlived him, with half her lungs.
His son, Buddy, dropped out of high school and became a long haul truck driver at the age of sixteen, which was a high paying job. Once grandfather knew his son could and would provide for the family, he walked into the police station and confessed. He was sentenced to twenty years for grand larceny, but he only served six months. He got out for good behavior, and because everyone knew him–he was the bank manager who approved their home mortgages and business loans. They all knew what he did and why he did it, and they forgave him. After he got out, they weren’t going to let him be a bank manager though, so he became the grocery store manager.
So, here I am roughly 40 years later, teaching junior high, and there’s this mandatory tuberculosis test, and you know what? 1/4th of the students tested positive.
Woah, that surprised me. Did any of these students actually have tuberculosis? No. They only tested positive to exposure. I tested negative, but how can that be? I was in daily contact with these students.
The whole thing was a farce. None of the students suffered from tuberculosis, and there was no epidemic or pandemic. The schools were not shut down. Sporting events were not cancelled. This is not the case, right now.
https://fivethirtyeight.cohtm/features/the-coronaviruss-economic-effect-on-sports-could-be-staggering/
Gawain's Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:28 amNo reason to believe that. It won’t go down to zero, and if it merely gets low, or exists in other parts of the world, if restrictions are lifted there will be a second wave and it will bounce back, like influenza does.
No way will several weeks or months of semi to total isolation put an end to this. They are almost lying. And that level of isolation is not sustainable.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:30 am167. Gawain’s Ghost (b25cd1) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:28 am
Wait. You’re not telling the full story. The bank did not discover the theft, you say. Did he account for the loss in some other way, later? Or did he just give a false total for cash on hand? Did he constantly have to be there to make sure the embezzlement was not discovered?
Yes, but did the bank forgive him, or that didn’t matter How did public opinion manage to affect this? Did he get a pardon from the Governor? Did some judge reduce his sentence?
It was a reducto ad absurdum. The T tests were ordered by people who didn’t understand what a test showed, but they should have known. They’re a school, for one thing.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:41 amOhio primary cancelled. The Governor went to court in an attempt to postpone it, but the judge rejected the request – he had no such power. Then the Board of Health or whatever it is called, called it off. It’s getting time to open and would be pretty hard to get rolling even if a court overruled that.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:43 am156. Dave (1bb933) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:21 pm
Because this is not a serous disease unless it gets deep in the lungs. If it stays in the upper respiratory tract it causes nothing worse than a cold, if that.
Only in one in seven people does it get deep into the lungs. The transition can be fast. Even then, the worst of the damage is done by the body’s immune system, by what’s called a cytokine storm – white blood cells attack healthy tissue as well.
Even then, the worst happens only if there is a secondary infection, which can happen easily because things that normally prevent bacteria from getting a foothold aren’t there.
It may be spread in the hospital or quarantine facility, and it may or may not be effectively treated. That’s why also you don’t have the same death rates everywhere. There’s not the same secondary infections in all places. The sick people, are, in fact, not suffering from the same disease! They all have infections of SARS2, but not only SARS2.
In Italy or other places people may be being killed by antibiotic resistant bacteria spread through ventilators. Which aren’t being effectively sterilized.
By the way, I read that CPAP machines could substitute for ventilators.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 4:00 am148. Thanks for your concern, Pat. As I said upthread, I am avoiding hospitals and nursing homes. Anyone else who is worried about being a carrier or that I may be one is free to socially distance themselves from me.
165. Ditto, Daren. If I am high risk because of my history of Asthma, so be it. It is a risk I am willing to accept. I will not accept fearmongering and panic as a basis for national policy. The problem with giving the government more power is that once we surrender our freedoms, we never get them back.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 5:55 amAnd what makes Fauci think it could possibly be over by July?
The flu diminishes because of herd immunity, which is present disproportionately among people who see a lot of other people, but if this prevents transmission of the virus, there won’t be very much herd immunity. It won’t “wash through.”
So suppose you get down to 300 active cases within the United States by July. We’ll just be back exactly whrer we were at the beginning of March. It’ll be deja vu all over again.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:09 amWell, it’s a happy St. Patrick’s Day I’m wishing to one and all, sure it is!
Some music for the occasion, to be goin’ on.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sullivan%27s+march&view=detail&mid=FF036AF2319185CF03C1FF036AF2319185CF03C1&FORM=VIRE
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:24 amI was in a grocery store/small supermarket this morning. The shelves looked more than half empry.
Not completely empty shelves – some things were passed over or other things were selected. No frozen foods almost.
They did not look like that on Sunday morning, although some stock was running down in the normal course of events. It wasn’t caused by non-delivery. I saw some eggs being delivered (to expensive there: $2.29 a dozen instead of $1.29 or 89 cents) and a cashier told me there’d be a delivery later in the day. (I also saw more empty shelves in a Rite Aid Sunday, mostly with cleaning materials)
She said it’s good to have extra food, which is right. I don;t thin she realized how half to three quarters empty some aisles were. I only went to get one thing: some more pasta.
I think President Trump’s request not to hoard food only caused more hoarding, because nobody elieves that any announcement will be the last announcement, and they;re not even waiting for announcements t take effect before modifying them. The main thing, I think, has been that the speed at which new restrictions are announced. In some places grocery stores may be included I don’t know.
It’s probably fear that purchases, or store hours, or open stores could be restricted before anyone would have a chance to re-act that is causing grocery store stocking up. People are buying food not because of any announcement, but because of anticipation of what might be in the next announcement. They’re not waiting to see what might be announced.
Also because they think they might stay indoors for a prolonged period. And also because they are being told: just two weeks or a month because it is possible to stock up for that length of time.
They’re worrying about curfews, (which have not been done, at least by the Governors of New York, New Jersey and Connecticut)
They’re wondering about limits on ATM withdrawals – I heard that in Florida maybe it was limited to $200.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:30 amAt 45:34 of this press conference, Dr. Deborah Birx said something very important, although she herself may not realize how important.
She talked about the nine women in their third trimester in China who tested positive for coronavirus yet did not suffer complications and their babies were born healthy. This may be because of the much larger amount of melatonin babies and young children have in their bodies compared to adults, especially older adults. Melatonin also rises sharply in the third trimester in pregnant women, presumably for the benefit of the soon to be delivered fetus.
SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, can result in extensive tissue-damaging cytokine storms, not only damaging lung tissue and causing sometimes fatal pneumonia, but also hurting organs ranging from the heart to the testes or ovaries to the kidneys and possibly the central nervous system: there is clinical evidence of all of these.
SARS-CoV-2 is also extremely contagious, approximately 1,000 more so than SAR-CoV, the cause of the 2003 outbreak, because of:
This makes SARS-CoV-2 not only vastly more contagious, it also affects more cells of the body, hence causes more tissue damage. Further:
This means that SARS-CoV-2 creates far more viral particles, which makes sense because it infects more tissues and thus uses more of your body to reproduce itself.
However, there may be a large sliver of good news.
Recall that young children and third-trimester pregnant women and their fetuses are healthy despite coronavirus infection. This may be because:
I wish I could link directly to this article by Doris Loh, however, the spam filter will not allow that. You can find it via a text search of any of the above and by its title: “COVID-19, PNEUMONIA & INFLAMMASOMES – THE MELATONIN CONNECTION.” I’ve already quoted a long section of it and for the complete argument, you should read the rest directly from the source.
The upshot is this: Melatonin suppresses NLRP3 inflammasomes which cause tissue-damaging cytokine storms.
Melatonin is cheap, widely available, and relatively safe. It may be an extremely good idea for you and those you love to supplement with a physiological dose (i.e., a low dose of 200 to 500 micrograms) of melatonin during this pandemic, following the protocol she gives near the end of that article including timing. Melatonin is the “sleep hormone” and when you take it matters.
If infected or you suspect infection, it may be wise to temporarily supplement with a large dose of melatonin (5 mg to 50 mg) in divided doses, along with vitamin C (ascorbic acid). Deborah low insists vitamin C is especially important if taking large doses of melatonin for melatonin to do its job. I, personally, am more sold on her recommendation for melatonin dosing than I am for vitamin C dosing, but apparently Chinese doctors vitamin C to good effect in treating coronovirus, so that that for what you will.
I’ve been studying this for the last day and it, the melatonin mediating NLRP3 inflammasomes angle, thus suppressing cytokine storms and tissue damage, makes sense to me. I intend for myself and my girlfriend to follow this protocol since the downsides are very little and the upside is potentially very huge. I have been recommending to my friend that they read this article in its entirety, and I urge you to too.
Even Ragspierre.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:34 am
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:37 amDeborah lowDoris Loh@173 Will you also consider wearing a sign letting everyone know you aren’t social distancing? Otherwise they will be making an incorrect risk assessment. If you respect their freedom of association and want them to continue respecting yours it’s the only honest choice.
Whoever you interact with in your regular day might have limited options already. Clerks in stores for example. But if you aren’t reducing your chances of exposure you aren’t reducing theirs. If you aren’t giving them that information then “people are free to avoid me” isn’t actually a true statement.
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:38 am179. Whoever I interact with in my regular day has just as much right and ability to socially distance themselves as I do. I do not wish to give up my job for the illusion of false safety. For those that do, more power to them.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:41 am8. Gryph (08c844) — 3/16/2020 @ 3:33 pm
Fear of the Food and Drug administration. Fear of the editors of the New England Journal of Medicine and other medical magazines. Fear of being criticized or censored for giving unapproved medical advice. Insurance companies not paying for un-established uses, and talking about it to the general public is NOT a wau to ge it established. While not talking about it cannot lead to obstacles to availability being overcome.
Nobody in a pharmaceutical company even wants to whisper anything about using a drug for off label uses. No doctor, who would want to make known that something should be used, wants to jeopardize publication. No hospital administrator wants to get in trouble. And no politician has the brains or the guts to understand what’s wrong with the status quo.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:42 amGryph @8
Well, the way I can see them cancelling it, constitutionally, is the sate leg+islatures picking the electors, but the winner of the presidential election in that case would have no legitimacy. They could also maybe did more voting by mail. Some registration would still have to be done in person.
And what about driver’s licenses? Nobody is thinking past September, yet.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:44 am177. A downside to melatonin supplement is how it can screw with your circadian rhythms. Almost like a sleeping pill, though synthetic supplements don’t have the same effect one everyone.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:49 amSammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:09 am
The primary effect of social distancing is to slow the spread and allow herd immunity to kick in. It doesn’t prevent herd immunity outright. Yes, there is a chance there will be a second spike if you discontinue social distancing to soon but we wouldn’t be in the same place in July. At that point we’d have some people with an immunity, some people dead, and hopefully a functioning economy and health care system. The ability to deal with the two spikes would be distributed over time and easier to manage.
The alternative is to allow the virus to spread normally, infect a lot of ppl at the same time, overwhelm the ability to deal with it, and have a lot more people dead because they couldn’t get the care they would have gotten had the system not been overloaded.
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:50 amWe didn’t cancel the elections of 1864 and 1944, and we ain’t gonna cancel this one over some stupid germ.
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:50 amA bit more music, this from “the troubles”, as the Irish calls them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaS3vaNUYgs
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:51 am185. That sounds like a high degree of certainty. One that I don’t share. Not anymore. Fauci is practically salivating over the possibility of ordering people to lock themselves inside their homes. He can’t do it yet, and he knows it, but he wishes he could. All for our own good, of course.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:56 amJohn Ford’s homage to his ancestral home…
The Quiet Man
(free) https://putlocker9.ru/film/the-quiet-man-1952-1080p/watching.html
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:12 amGryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:41 am
This is simply not a true statement. If they believe that, like most people, you are acting to reduce the spread they’re making their decision to interact with you based on a lie you are telling. It’s a lie of omission but still a lie.
I hope you stay secure with your job but like our host above, I don’t expect to change your mind. I still encourage you to reconsider your position. It sounds like you’ve got people who depend on you and it seems like you would want to minimize your risk to yourself and to them.
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:13 am189. I won’t stay secure in my job when (not if but when) my employer is ordered to shut down because fear is accepted as a basis for policy. Do you really believe that won’t happen? Because every time I see that smug mug Fauci give another press conference with his Coronavirus task force, every time I see a quote in the press about how he thinks we’re not doing enough, I feel us getting closer to that outcome.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:15 amAnd yes, everyone does have at least as much right and ability to socially distance themselves as I do. “Nuh-uh!” isn’t really an argument there. And anyone who sees me at work and at the arcade already knows to what degree I am willing to socially distance. To call me a liar is utterly defamatory.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:18 amThat’s not too much different from chance. Six out of seven people infected don’t suffer any serious complications, and that skews young. Even if you add 20 years (temporarily) to a woman’s age because of pregnancy.
OK, the key point here is that that SARS-CoV-2 is vastly (1,000 times more copies per swab) more contagious than SARS-CoV (old SARS) But that might be altittle bit exaggerated because maybe they are trying to get more
The reason it is more infectious than SARS-CoV is probably because of a “furin cleavage site” (somethng different) in the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2. An ACE2 receptor is needed for the virus to infect a cell. It’s not found in many mice (making it difficult to test a vaccine) and the mouse lines developed for original SARS have been killed but one researcher saves the sperm.
Bottom line: You’re saying that melatonin, possibly with the addition of Vitamin C, might suppress NLRP3 inflammasomes (sp?) which, in turn, cause tissue-damaging cytokine storms, which, if what I read in Bloomberg Business Week is right, in turn cause the really serious complications, or at least the scarring. About one in five people who recover from serious cases have permanent lung damage.
The death toll of Covid-19 depends more on the exact nature of the secondary infections, which seems to relate to the tissue damage caused by a cytokine storm (but mabe is caused simply by the immune system being too busy?)
This is probably also true for flu, but it averages out for influenza because there are so many cases in so many different palaces.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:26 amThere’s a whole lot of things that might suppress cytokine storms:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5224679 (A 3-year old background article)
The term, and probably the idea, of a “cytokine storm” has only been known since 1993.
There’s probably more to find out.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:28 am“When will Trump pardon Flynn — on a good news day or buried in a bad news day?”
DRJ (15874d) — 3/16/2020 @ 11:45 pm
He should’ve pardoned Flynn a month ago so it could be discussed here ad nauseam instead of the potentially life changing issue of Roger Stone’s pardon. CV wasn’t worth electrons here.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:31 am192. 193. Every documented CoViD-19 death has been from pneumonia and comorbid complications therein.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:31 amDaren and whembly,
Are the effective drugs Kaletra and Chloroquine?
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:39 amForget government for a minute and think about how to handle this as a capitalist. It seems to me that restaurants might have an opportunity here. Shut down for dining patrons but focus entirely on to go orders and deliveries. Have the wait staff move into deliveries, or work with Uber/Grubhub/etc if you need more help and move all employees into cooking and organizing for deliveries. Market your services to everyone, including places that (voluntarily or not) quarantine and might love the treat of restaurant food. And being patron-free means you can monitor your staff closely and be able to assure the public your food is prepared in a safe environment.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:55 am197. To go orders and deliveries may reduce the spread of the virus among patrons at these establishments, but it defeats the purpose of “social distancing” to send delivery drivers into other people’s homes.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:01 amThat’s why she mentions when to time it, i.e., before you go to bed. Plus she recommends relatively small “physiologic” doses (200–500 mcg) as a prophylactic rather than taking very large doses (it’s often sold in 1, 3, 5, or 10 mg doses).
I don’t think a couple months of low-dose melatonin is unreasonable, but you’re certainly entitled to bring your own reason and judgment to bear.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:11 amI disagree. My family includes two severely immunocompromised people. We have been isolating ourselves for almost 30 years. We don’t go to stores, restaurants, etc., and rely on deliveries for everything. We have deliveries left on our front porch and clean it before bringing it into the house.
I suppose one person is slightly at risk but we have ways to protect ourselves with gloves and masks. It is similar to the Japanese custom of leaving shoes outside, which isn’t a bad idea now either.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:12 am183. frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 6:50 am
It depends on how successful it is. If this is the theory, you actually don’t want it to be too successful!
Right now we’re at the stage where only about one person in 2,000 in the United States has it.
But if it’s really successful in stopping the spread of the disease, we will be.
There won’t be any vaccine, but of course, there might an established treatment (at least to mitigate the disease) which won’t be possible for our FDA to ignore. Chloroquine, (which changes the pH of the blood) or the anti-HIV protease inhibitors, or melatonin, or whatever they are doing in China, South Korea, Hong Kong or Australia. (bt I repeat myself because they’ve been mentioned already)
This just in:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8115879/COVID-19-Australian-researchers-CURE-coronavirus.html
So why isn’t some politician calling for the U.S. government to negotiate mass production of generic Kaletra at a low price with drug companies?
A. Because they are all cowards and fools and want to listen blindly to the “scientists” and the doctors.
Newspapers don’t have the courage either to editorialize for that.If this s warm you act on the basis of incomplete information. Certainly this 14-day quarantine eriod, or the handwashing, is not based on anything solid.
There will be – what could it be? – 100 times the number of people with immunity? as the number of dead and if you have got 10,000 dead you’ll only have 1 million people with immunity – about 0.3% of the U,S. population. Not significant.
Well, the thing is, you don’t want a spike – and this is not being sold as an attempt to keep the death toll under, say, 100,000.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:13 amIt also wasn’t worth the President’s time, but that curiously does not seem to bother you at all. You harangue me instead of the President, who actually could have done something about it. That shows whether you actually care about the issue as opposed to a cheap what-about political point.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:14 amYou could keep your distance as best as possible at the door, use a mask, wash your hands right away after the driver drops off your food, etc.
If delivery drivers wore masks when making deliveries, that could help a lot, since standard medical masks (rather than N95 masks) are best at preventing you from spreading disease. That’s why surgeons wear them.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:15 amGryph, after reading your comments here, I find that you and I are of the same mind.
It’s okay by me if businesses voluntarily curtail operations, send employees home, or even shut down temporarily. In fact, my own company has ordered employees to work from home, unless it is impossible for them to do so. It’s okay by me if individuals decide to limit their interactions with other people. But it frightens me beyond words to see the government shutting down commerce and movement by fiat.
We have the right to assemble peaceably, conduct commerce, and move about freely. But now, the government at all levels –city, state, and federal — is acting to shut those activities down. It’s happening without even declaring martial law. And people are complacently accepting this. I have a friend who has ridiculed me because I think this is a dangerous encroachment on our rights.
I generally like your comments, and respect you as a commenter here. Just know that you are not alone in your views.
Chuck Bartowski (6fff93) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:15 amIn general, he talks a lot more about what he’s thinking about doing than actually does, this much is so.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:15 amLearn how to cook! My personal non-ramen ramen recipe:
— Two cups plus a little bit more water
— Four ounces (that’s 1/4th of a 1 lb box) of angel hair pasta
— One cube of Knorr bouillon base (your favorite flavor)
— Pat of butter
— Soy sauce
— Optional, chopped-up hard fried/hard boiled egg, or cooked ham, or cooked vegetables, or whatever
In small pot or sauce pan bring water, butter, and Knorr cube to a boil.
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:19 amAdd pasta. I break mine in half.
Cook for five minutes, stirring occasionally.
Turn off heat, add soy sauce to taste, and optional egg, ham, vegetables, or whatever, stir to mix, cover, and let sit a little. DO NOT DRAIN!
Decant into large soup bowl.
Eat. I use both a fork and a spoon.
Bon appetit!
* If this is a war, you act on the basis of incomplete information.
They are, but only to limit freedom of people. Not to make a large scale effort to try put some new treatment before a clinical trial is published. Yes, you have to be not stupid to risk that. And you have to be able to re-evaluate what you are doing every three days.
Why doesn’t somebody just skip ahead and negotiate high production levels of Kaletra TODAY? All they are willing to risk overriding regular procedures is for test kits. And what would that do?
To do it at this stage, is to flatten the curve so much it will maybe take three or four years to get through it.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:20 amI think government has always had such powers and reserves them for extreme situations. Does the notion of a draft in wartime (think WWII) frighten you beyond words? If not, you’ll have to explain the distinction to me, where closings of restaurants represent the maximum totalitarian nightmare come true but sending men off to die in battle is no big deal. If so– if you are as troubled by the draft — then you are consistent, and you may have a good point, but most of the public sees it differently.
What I find troubling — and I’m not saying this is true of you, Chuck, but it is of Gryph — is that the same people who recoil at governmental quarantines or closures (a view which I understand even if I disagree) seem hellbent on also holding the opinion that the virus is not serious enough for them to want to voluntarily change their behavior. It seems convenient how often those attitudes coincide.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:23 amGeez, people…!!!
1. Have delivery person place delivery at doorstep.
2. Delivery person rings/knocks.
3. Delivery person steps back a bit.
4. Delivery person ascertains consumer receives delivery.
All done.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:24 am“That shows whether you actually care about the issue as opposed to a cheap what-about political point.”
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:14 am
I was responding to “a cheap what-about political point” which you didn’t call out.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:24 amIn the United Kingdom they were talking of confining all people over the age of 70 to their homes for four months, in order to build up herd immunity among people who probably won’t die of the infection, but this doesn’t actually seem to be a very good idea, or very popular anyway.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-pandemic-herd-immunity-uk-boris-johnson/608065
The difference is supposed to be that they expect the majority of the people to be infected anyway – it’s not a goal. It’s not a plan to get people infected.
And they don’t want to impose strict isolation measures now, when the incidence of the disease is very low, because people will get tired of sticking by them, and go out at the worst possible time.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:24 amI never take seriously people who say “I hereby criticize this person for doing x” when Trump has done x 50 times and the person never says boo. It’s a tell.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:25 amThis is a fair point.
Could the government devote permanently itself to shutting down Taco Bell? I guess. But I doubt it will.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:25 amPatterico, it may be worth remembering that whole city blocks have been dynamited to fight a city fire. Civil authorities have very broad powers in an emergency. Always have.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:28 amYou never call out Trump for things that he does or does not do, while criticizing others for the same actions or omissions that Trump does to a greater degree. Again, it’s a tell. Nobody not already in the Trump choir fails to see it.
Patterico (115b1f) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:28 amGryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:15 am
You should consider quoting the timestamp instead of the comment number. You seem to be consistently off by 1.
I don’t know what your job is but I suspect you also won’t be secure in it if we don’t take steps to slow the spread and we exceed the estimate of 40% infected with a significant number of those needing critical care. Unless you work at a funeral home.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 7:18 am
I gave a much better argument than “Nuh-uh!” and I think I’ve been very fair with you. I’m not sure how someone simply seeing you at work or out and about will know you’re unwilling to change your normal activities. If you don’t like being called a liar you should make it clear to everyone who sees you to what degree you are trying to reduce the spread, i.e. let them know you avoid nursing homes and sick people but otherwise want to keep acting normally. I’m actually ok with defamation when it’s true.
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:31 amI wish someone, somewhere in the media or blogosphere would call out Trump for how he’s handling CV. Just once.
I guess it all rests on people like me to do it.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:32 am216. Fair with me? For calling me a liar? Okay. I guess your definition of “Fair” differs from mine somewhat.
214. True that. And bear in mind that it is also that same government with broad emergency powers that gets to determine what an emergency is.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:36 amPeople will appreciate restaurants that adjust their model to the market. For now, people will want the restaurant food we enjoy, but offered in a way that reduces the risk of infection that comes with eating out. Use the dining room to store supplies and to set up an organized system to package food for deliveries. Charge more if needed. I bet plenty of folks will pay. And this lets you have a chance to keep everyone in your business working. Win-Win.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:37 amSarcasm may make you feel better, Munroe, but you lose credibility when that is all you do.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:38 am208. I am actively avoiding hospitals and nursing homes. Not that I have any reason to go to them on a day-by-day basis, but I am. I reluctantly agreed to stay home instead of accompanying my mother to the orthopedist appointment she wanted me to go to with her. In what way am I not changing my behavior that you think I should be?
I am not going to bug-in and live like a hermit, actively avoiding any and all contact with all of my fellow human beings. But are you taking that step, Pat? Do you think I should be? How far is far enough? Fauci clearly doesn’t think anyone is doing enough. He’s said so!
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:39 amOK, but in this case you have a virus that killed 250+ people in the last 24 hours in Italy, an exponential increase day by day, and killed more people in the last 24 hours in America than any other day so far as we’re aware (testing has been problematic here).
It appears, per the source I posted above that I urge you all to read because it may, just may, have a way of saving your lives and those of those you love in it, and mitigating this pandemic no less, that it is not only more contagious than usual, it infects more tissues than other coronaviruses, resulting in more non-lethal permanent quality-of-life reducing/disabling damage.
So yeah, I understand why they don’t want people sitting in my usual Starbucks packed to the gills.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:40 am“Sarcasm may make you feel better, Munroe, but you lose credibility when that is all you do.”
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:38 am
Did the sarcasm in your whaddabout Flynn comment make you feel better, DRJ?
Munroe (dd6b64) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:41 amI thought it was funny and, like a lot of sarcasm, made a point.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:42 am222. Italy != The United States.
Look, I get the whole “flattening the curve” thing. It’s bunk. Getting a hospital bed is no guarantee you’ll survive. Getting a ventilator to go with your hospital bed is no guarantee you’ll survive.
The government is asking you to trust them. Pat apparently seems willing to do so. I am not, especially not on the basis of what is happening under the supervision of foreign governments.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:44 am208. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:24 am
That last part is not necessary (unless delivery person wants a tip, or needs to collect payment.)
Two things that at least, they;re not advising people to do:
1) Worry about contracting the disease though handling bills.
2) Worry about contracting the disease through touching cellphones.
Of course, the whole handwashing protocol should go out the window for this disease. And the 14-day waiting period if you only possibly were infected.
On the other hand, staying six feet away from somebody who coughed or sneezed is no guarantee of not getting it. It can travel further than anyone wants to admit.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:47 amThe only research I have seen linking melatonin to anti-viral activity involved a 2008 study that used melatonin, phosphate, fatty acids and protein extracted from Aspergillus oryzae to combat herpes simplex virus type I (HSV-I), that commonly produces cold sores. It might help with Coronavirus but they are different viruses.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:48 am1. I don’t think it is. The outcome in America will be different, I suspect, for arguments I’ve advanced in other threads that I won’t get into here for reasons of time and space. Nonetheless, you chose to omit the part where I pointed out that 24-hour deaths in America appear to have also increased.
2. They’re being prudent, even if, hopefully, it’s not so bad in America.
3. The government isn’t asking me to fight a stupid war in Europe allied with Communists. I’ll brew coffee at home for a couple weeks and take some melatonin. Keep it in proportion here.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:49 amYou could also read the article and its sources.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:50 amSammy, making sure the delivery has been made to the consumer is elementary. It would not do to have it made to the wrong address, now would it?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:50 amI wasn’t being sarcastic, Munroe. This week, Trump has been talking about pardoning Flynn. I think he means it and wondered when he might announce it for real.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:50 amThe point is probably context dependent. I thought what he was trying to say is “I’m mad trump is getting criticized and want to change the subject.” He probably meant something different, but it’s really hard to tell.
Time123 (52fb0e) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:52 amI will be interested how these coronavirus comments look a couple weeks from now, two months from now, a year from now. (They likely will not survive into the next century).
My thoughts.
1. We won’t maintain social distancing for more than a month or so. Then we will go forward, gradually loosening things, whether it is appropriate to do so or not. Coronavirus will be a risk factor in everyday life. Human behavior will irritate the folks who try to regulate it.
2. My non-medical, I am too Pollyanna, view is that this will fade with warmer weather. This, paradoxically, may make the Fall a very dangerous time.
3. This is not the end of Trump’s Presidency. He’s around until next January. And, if the disease really fades like China says it has, he could really get reelected, as memories of his performance fade.
4. The economy may not bounce back, but the stimulus may buy Trump some grace as he is seen to be doing something.
Appalled (1a17de) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:52 amYay.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:52 amI thought so too. However, it appears to be hitting the Phillippines and Malaysia. So we’ll see.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:53 amI don’t trust the government to do what’s right. That’s part of the reason I’m a small government conservative. I trust individuals to do the right thing. People have to do what’s best for themselves and their families.
With extended closures and “social distancing,” how are people going to pay the bills? Are you supporting socialism and a guaranteed minimum income?
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:55 amMunroe, I’m not particularly nice to you, and I admit that. I’ve been outright rude in the past and had to rightfully apologize. But from time to time you have a really good point. It seems like when that’s come through it’s a comment where you’ve taken a line to 2 to explain what your saying and made your point with an assertion based on some set of facts, rather then through a question that assumes a lot of facts that are in dispute.
Wanted to offer my opinion since unsolicited opinions are the best kind. 😉
Time123 (52fb0e) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:56 amWith extended closures and “social distancing,” how are people going to pay the bills?
How do people pay their bills when an entire area is destroyed by natural disaster?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:57 amWell, there’s a difference between “an entire area” vs. “the whole country.” So it becomes a more serious question when the whole country shuts down.
However, you have to take into account the costs, including economic, of widespread infection. So the greater good is the lesser of two evils, even if, sure, economic hardship is hard.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:00 am224. Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:44 am
A ventilator could send you to your doom if it is oot properly sterilized and the hospital has an epidemic of antibiotic resistant bacteria lke MRSA or methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus.
Instead of a ventilator, consider a new, sterile, CPAP machine.
If someone’s decisions cannot undergo scrutiny, there is no incentive for them to be good other than their conscience and careful thinking and rethinking.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:00 amYou did not provide a link but I took the time to find it and read it earlier today. It is an interesting hypothesis and worth investigating.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:00 amRagspierre,
you didn’t answer the question. You just engaged in whataboutism and tried to change the topic. Please answer the question.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:02 amThanks, DRJ.
As I said in my comment, I can’t send links here. Hence, I quoted a significant portion of it, cited its title and author, summarized it, and urged people to find it through google and read it. I’m glad you did so.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:02 amGryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:44 am
Yes, I’m being more than fair. At this point, you are consistently misrepresenting things and have been doing that across numerous posts. I’m giving you the benefit of that doubt that it isn’t on purpose.
No one has said having a hospital bed will guarantee you’ll survive. But not having one when you need one will all but guarantee you won’t. Same for a ventilator. If you need one and can’t get it you will almost surely die. That is a simple fact unrelated to covid or whether you trust the government.
I’m actually not willing to trust the government. I’ve looked at the numbers and the math and made up my own mind.
This is an interesting comment. What exactly do you mean here? What foreign governments are supervising the US response to covid?
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:02 amAt any rate, right or wrong, a couple months of 300 mcg melatonin at night is hardly likely to cause major harm and seems prudent, considering the lines of evidence she presented. I will do this personally.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:04 amIf this “quarantine” lasts for an extended period of time are we going to stop mortgage payments, credit card payments, allow “credit” for food and drugs, etc? Who pays for it all? How does our society function? What happens next???
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:05 amWe DO know that third-trimester pregnant women and young children have the highest levels of serum melatonin and got through COVID-19 almost entirely unscathed, so that hints very strongly at melatonin’s safety during this pandemic, at a minimum.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:06 amMAOA,
have you tried to just post the link without using the link button above? Just a copy/paste?
I never have an issue with that as long as it doesn’t have a restricted word in the hyperlink.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:06 amNJRob, China had the worst outbreak and managed to beat it down and their economy and citizenry are returning to activity. Do you think they’d be better off now if they hadn’t?
The idea is not to do this forever.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:07 amI have long thought that compulsory military service, even in wartime, was wrong. And it doesn’t mean a thing to me that people disagree with me about the dangers of government shutting down businesses by fiat.
The mayor of Reno (where I live) yesterday ordered that all “non-essential” businesses shut down by March 20th. Who gets to determine what’s “non-essential”? Most small businesses operate on razor-thin margins. A decree like this puts a lot of law-abiding business owners into bankruptcy. Why does the government get to pick what businesses survive and what businesses die?
Again, if a business wants to shut down voluntarily, I’m okay with that. But government coming in and closing them down is going too far.
Chuck Bartowski (6fff93) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:07 amWhat’s the name of the website where the report is located MAOA? Just name, not link.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:07 amYes, I have no idea why, but I simply cannot get any link through.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:08 am229. Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:50 am
The first time, they could make a mistake. It wont tend to happen wth repeat customers. And even if not trying, customer will confirm. If delivery was made to the wrong address, they can try again. It won’t happen often.
Although in your scenario this won’t happen, nowadays deliveries from grocery stores are not always made when someone is home. They usually have the address on file. Usually it is put where stealing is not a big problem.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:08 amChina is a lying nation and they control their populace a lot more than I’m willing to accept. They disappear people often and will murder you without cause.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:08 amIt’s Munroe’s job to deflect and derail criticism of Trump. Everybody knows that.
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:12 amEVOLUTAMENTE .it is the website.
Doris Loh, the author of “COVID-19, PNEUMONIA & INFLAMMASOMES – THE MELATONIN CONNECTION” is also on Twitter and other places.
Sure, but they’re not the only one.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:12 amhttps://www.evolutamente.it/covid-19-pneumonia-inflammasomes-the-melatonin-connection/
That it MAOA?
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:13 amNJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:55 am
I generally subscribe to the same position as the rest of this comment. However, the arguments I’m seeing from Gryph are probably not as uncommon generally as I’d like and that makes me question this part.
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:14 amNk and others,
any chance we can get away from our bickering back and forth about the President just for a few days? When things get relatively normal again I’m sure we can go back to mocking and insulting each other.
Look at DeWine ignoring the court and ordering the polls closed today.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:15 amYes.
As DRJ said, it’s an interesting hypothesis. It appears entirely rational to me and I’ve spent the better part of a day studying it. In any case, the downside to low-dose melatonin at night for a couple months seems low so I will be doing it.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:17 amThere is research about the anti-inflammatory/antioxidant impact of melatonin. Vitamin C does that, too. The hypothesis in your article is interesting but it is just a hypothesis. Not all antioxidants work on every disease but, within reason, I agree that taking antioxidants is good.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:18 amI wouldn’t go nuts on antioxidants in general, some of which can suppress the very-important endogenous antioxidant system. Melatonin and Vitamin C appear to have specific action here.
Your mileage may vary.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:20 amIs ualach trom atá á fhorchur agat, NJRob.
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:22 amI’m sorry for doing so nk. I just figured these are going to be tough times and avoiding going at each other is probably best for everyone. Just imagine how I’m going to have to try and follow my own rules since I love to respond acerbically to certain individuals. We’re all going to have to try and push that boulder uphill and I’m sure it will fall down over and over again, but up the hill we go again.
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:27 amMelatonin is a hormone. It’s involved in signalling. It’s inflamasome suppression activity is probably related to it signalling your own immune system rather than direct antioxidant activity. That’s a guess on my part, if that isn’t clear. That could explain why, if this hypothesis is correct, it is especially protective against this coronavirus and why the young and third-trimester pregnant women are spared.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:30 am“It’s Munroe’s job to deflect and derail criticism of Trump. Everybody knows that.”
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:12 am
What, no butt gerbil reference, nk?
Munroe (dd6b64) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:32 amGood advice, NJRob – and a good example you’re setting, much appreciated. I’ll try to follow it as well.
Leviticus (efada1) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:34 amNo, not today, in honor of St. Patrick’s Day, Munroe. I’ll try to remember, tomorrow.
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:36 amGovernor Cuomo, in a very long press briefing said (headline) that the peak number of cases in New York should come in 45 days.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:38 amMy reading is she thinks melatonin helps because it has anti-inflammatory properties.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:41 amSome components of Vitamin C do, too, but you have to take high doses to achieve that. Better to take specific components, IMO.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:42 amI am a lawyer and believe in using courts and the law to fix problems, but that takes time and we need to eat and be sheltered in the meantime.
Life throws us curves. Sometimes that means you have to change your plans, get new jobs, learn new skills, even move. It is hard but now is the time to come up with legal ideas that enable us to earn livings when times get tough.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:46 amLegalize pillaging! Problem solved.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:49 amPresident Trump didn’t do all of the things some of the medical people wanted him to do.
45. NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:05 am
Congress is probably going to try to come to the rescue:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/giving-americans-money-to-offset-coronavirus-impact-gains-bipartisan-support-in-congress-11584446801
But I think they are only thinking of two weeks pay, to equal the 14 day quarantine, or giving everybody $1,000.
The federal government, by borrowing.
A very good question. Even Bernie Sanders seem to have asked this question in the debate:
I didn’t really notice what his answer was, except that if the federal government is going to pay for coronovirus testing, it should also pay for a psychologist for a husband whose wife has tested positive, and for a broken leg.
Ask Dr. Anthony Fauci.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:51 amIf the Leader of the Free World says something false or stupid during a public health crisis, the answer is “no”.
Paul Montagu (d6528e) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:53 amzinc lozenges – if zinc acetate – just alittle stop an infection, but you can’t get them anymore. I bought a whole lot of Cepacol zinc lozenges in 2004, but on;y know whee a few are I might need to look (harder) for them where I know they must be. I tried buying more last year. Not availabe.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:53 amSo, how will Michael Bloomberg spend his $1,000?
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:53 amI know you are joking and it is funny — reminds me of Monty Python. I used to think about what I would do in a crisis: Would I steal to feed my family? It is important to know how far we can go before we lose our values.
As for anti-inflammatories, I think they are important parts of fighting disease but, for me, it is hard to choose the best ones (let alone the best brands, because they vary a lot).
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:54 amyou didn’t answer the question. You just engaged in whataboutism and tried to change the topic. Please answer the question.
I guess you need to ask the question again, because I’m confused.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 9:56 amLook for something called COLD-EEZE, Sammy.
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:01 amIf I read all the NIH info correctly, anti-inflammatories are actually an impediment to the bodies response to an infection. Which shouldn’t be shocking, different drugs do different things, don’t take antibiotics for a virus, etc. The inflammatory response is your body fighting, suppressing that when you have a cold or the mild flu is fine, but with more severe infections, it’s a problem, potentially.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:01 ambody’s
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:01 amJoking how? I’m a fan of Genghis Khan, to the extent he wasn’t a warm-hearted, mush-minded lefty.
There’s weak evidence for exogenous antioxidants being effective, unfortunately, for most things (Bjelakovic G, Nikolova D, Gluud LL, Simonetti RG, Gluud C. Antioxidant supplements for prevention of mortality in healthy participants and patients with various diseases. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2012, Issue 3. Art. No.: CD007176.). The body’s endogenous antioxidant system is powerful. Vitamin C may be important for recycling other antioxidants more than anything and melatonin, I suspect, as a naturally-occurring human hormone, allows the body’s own endogenous antioxidant system to work better.
However, that’s my reading of the literature and some people believe antioxidant supplements are in general useful.
What I would say about melatonin is we know, for sure, those most protected from COVID-19 pathology have the highest levels of serum melatonin. So, even if ultimately proven not to be helpful, physiologic doses of melatonin are unlikely to be harmful for the purposes of fighting off SARS-CoV-2.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:05 amGarlic. Raw garlic. Never leave the house without first munching two cloves of raw garlic. That alone will reduce your risk of coming in contact with an infected person to almost zero, and along with washing your hands and not touching your face greatly reduce your overall risk of infection.
nk (1d9030) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:22 amWell put, Colonel Klink. As I’m sure you know, one of the main ways the body fights infection is to promote inflammation, to kill pathogens and to direct the body’s immune cells to the site of the “battle.”
However, what can happen, as I’m sure you also know, is that the immune system sometimes “fights too hard” and causes red on blue “friendly fire” casualties to the body’s own tissues, resulting in cell damage or cell death. Too much of this unleashed by the signalling molecules called cytokines (interferon, interleukin, and growth factors, etc.) can cause a “cytokine storm” resulting in damage, sometimes fatal, sometimes long-term disabling, to the individual.
It’s dubious whether the body even makes much use of most of what are sold as antioxidant supplements, but to the extent it does, they can be harmful and even suppress immune response. Worse, they may suppress parts of the immune system that are important for fighting off a particular infection while not suppressing parts that could lead that specific infectious agent to cause a dangerous cytokine storm.
The claim Doris Loh is making with melatonin is it suppressing a certain aspect of the immune system (NLRP3 inflammasomes) that can and usually does cause a damaging cytokine storm regarding this coronavirus.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:31 amRagspierre,
With extended closures and “social distancing,” how are people going to pay the bills? Are you supporting socialism and a guaranteed minimum income?
NJRob (4d595c) — 3/17/2020 @ 8:55 am
NJRob (e8d2a8) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:33 amYour last sentence in that second quote, “It’s just a war, or an invasion, in another realm,” is flat-out false, and exactly the emotionalism of the moment that most disturbs me.
Of course you assert it is false, because otherwise you’d have no point.
Governments have, and always have had, emergency powers to protect their nations and the people therein. It is one of the valid reasons we HAVE government. These powers include manpower drafts, curfews, border controls, requisition of supplies, etc. Would you argue that a curfew imposed in a civil disorder is unconstitutional? Or closing gun and liquor stores? If not, then why is it now?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:35 amI go away for a few hours only to find another Kevin thread-jack.
There I go again, talking about the topic at hand. Let’s look at Rag’s contributions, shall we?
3. Oddly, I’ve never thought of you as a swinger
21. Poor Jen dropped her basket some time back.
59. I go away for a few hours only to find another Kevin thread-jack.
174. Some music for the occasion, to be goin’ on.
185. A bit more music, this from “the troubles”, as the Irish calls them.
187. The Quiet Man
208. FINALLY an actual comment on topic
followed by unconvincing restatements when challenged.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:45 am37. Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/16/2020 @ 5:45 pm
I think Xi Jingpin knew about this new version of SARS and hoped to keep it a secret, even if a few people left China with it. If the number of infected people outside of China was less than 100, maybe doctors would not notice.
The secrecy was only broken only because the December 30 WeChat message from Dr. Li Wenliang to his Wuhan University alumni group about seven cases of SARS went viral and the censors could not catch up with it. It had even gotten to Canada. This website: https://bluedot.global They don’t, as a rule, monitor social media but look a lot at airplane travel.
(Dr. Li Wenliang did not intend to be a whistleblower – his messages were about anything and everything and he probably had no idea this was a topic of censorship, because what is secret in China, is also a secret. Imagine somebody got ahold of the master censorship list!)
So the government of China reported the disease to the World Health Organization on December 31. But they still stuck to the story that there was no person-to-person transmission of the disease – i.e., everybody had gotten it from an animal at the Huanan Wholesale Food Market. They pretended they had just discovered this and closed the meat market on January 1. And after that there was no hiding it, but it still took a little while for them to acknowledge person to person transmission.
When some people from the United States CDC asked about this about January 6, they still stuck to their story, although maybe the government on Beijing had already told the WHO there was some person-to-person transmission maybe the day before.
The WHO first notified the general public on January 9.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:46 amYou know, I’ve noticed this phenomena.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:49 amnk @279
COLD-EEZE- is zinc gluconate, not zinc acetate. It’s the sinc acetate that works.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:54 amWrestlemania need not cancel, it should just facilitate Esport simulation between the factions of beefing Pattericans.
urbanleftbehind (32b3e8) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:00 amActually, asthma is one of the risks since it involves the lungs, and coronavirus targets the lungs. Plus Heart disease, Lung disease, Diabetes, High blood pressure, Cancer, MS, inflammatory bowel disease, HIV, and autoimmune and transplant patients. That is a lot of people.
Not all of whom are aware of their condition or susceptibility.
The other reason to stop most social contact is to avoid herd contagion. If this is as easily transmitted as they say, then contagion is a simple function of the number interactions. Combinations of N people, M at a time, are quickly large numbers of contacts.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:02 amFrom the NYT Coronovirus update: Alternate-side of the street parking regulations still remain in effect in New York. But car owners who received alternate-side parking tickets while under self-isolation could have the tickets dismissed with “medical documentation or testimony.”
Parks and playgrounds remain open. But “recreation centers” and “nature centers” are closed, as of today. (these may be staffed I would guess)
As of Tuesday morning, 1,374 people in New York State had tested positive for the virus, up from 950 the day before and 644 of the cases were in the city.
Twelve people have died from the virus in New York State, including seven in New York City. yesterday the total for New York City was 5 I think two or three days ago it was 2.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:16 amWith extended closures and “social distancing,” how are people going to pay the bills? Are you supporting socialism and a guaranteed minimum income?
To which I responded with a question (a thought question) asking how we manage in the case of a natural disaster effecting an entire region. A bad hurricane leaves people in MUCH worse circumstances for perhaps a longer time.
You need to learn what “whataboutism” means. Your accusatory use indicates you have no clue.
This allows me the opportunity to illuminate the term “socialism”. Generally, we use the term to mean “state socialism”, which many of us rightly abhor. But we fail to remember that there are lots of ways we engage in “socialism” in a broader sense. In that sense, many people “socialize” voluntarily in an effort to mitigate the vicissitudes of life. Insurance is an example, as is charity, especially any of the organized charities Americans are famous for.
So, the simple answer to your question is, no as to state socialism, but yes as to socialism in the broader meaning of the term. We, as Americans, do it all the time. I think we’d do more of it but for the fact that as government expands it forces everything else aside.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:45 amYou know, I’ve noticed this phenomena.
You would, and essentially because I have your number AND push back against your BS.
Happy to.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:48 amKevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 10:45 am
I obviously struck a nerve.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:53 amRagspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:45 am
YOU CAN’T DO THE SAME THING.
MAON answered you @238 – the very next comment – that there’s a difference between “an entire area” and “the whole country.”
That’s the reason all that mortgage insurance failed in 2008. Why thise credit default swaps were unpaid in spite of being rated AAA.
You can’t insure against a depression.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:54 amObviously your greatest goal and the main reason you’re here. Most of us, however, are trying to discuss ideas and potential solutions, whether for our immediate circle or larger.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 11:59 amNew York City Council Speaker Corey Johnson suggested New York City quarantine itself. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo said no city in New York State can quarantine itself without permission from the state and and, in effect “I am the law” and he’s not giving permission for a quarantine to any city in New York State. Mayor Bill de Blasio said in a press conference later that New Yorkers should prepare for a “Shelter in place” order within 48 hours.
I suppose that means he is going to try to shut down the subways and buses, and that those 100 emergency child care centers for the children of emergency services workers, health care workers and transit workers are not going to open next Monday.
Before the time comes for any decision to be carried out, it’s changed.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:03 pm244. “Because, Italy!” “Because, South Korea!” They are being cited as reasons why I should be willing to
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:04 pmdo more to socially distance myselfbug-in and live like a hermit. What foreign governments are doing to combat CoViD-19 is not a good basis for formulating policy in America.It’s not the Andromeda Strain!
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:04 pm300. Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:04 pm
and if it is, the government should buy lots of Kaletra and Chloroquine and maybe Tamiflu (not so good).
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:07 pmMAON answered you @238 – the very next comment – that there’s a difference between “an entire area” and “the whole country.”
I didn’t see that response, but it is inapposite and simplistic.
The “whole country” is not losing their income. Is it, Sammy?
Now, IFFFFFFFF there is a depression resulting, which is not assured at this point, that is another matter. But even at the very darkest days of the Great Depression, something on the order of 25% of working people were out of a job. Other people prospered in those same dark times.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:07 pmWell, those are two examples of how to respond, one working one not. But let’s not let knowledge and experience get in the way of making some sort of ‘Murka thing.
We’ve heard from you, you don’t care if you infect other people, you don’t care about the consequences of your actions beyond your immediate benefit and convenience.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:08 pm258. I can accept being told that I am being stupid. I can accept being told that I am putting myself and my loved ones at risk. At least as far as my parents are concerned, they have made an informed consent for whatever risk I am placing them at. What I can not accept is that government must act if media-driven guilt trips fail to make me change my behavior. Without freedom to be stupid, we are not free.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:10 pmI’m kind of shocked this went by entirely unremarked
@18
Manotaur (e632fa) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:10 pmObviously your greatest goal and the main reason you’re here.
Except, and according to the list that Kevin took time to compile and YOU took time to try to slime me over, I injected greetings to mark the day, a little humor, some music, and a movie to watch while confined.
So, you’re typically WRONG.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:13 pm305. I did not say I don’t care if I infect other people. What I said was, the changes that I have been making are minimal, and they constitute what I consider an acceptable cost to myself to minimize my chance of spreading or catching CoViD-19. You and others believe I should be doing more, to which I give you a hale-and-hearty GFY.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:13 pm@306. You must live in Utah.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:13 pmYour personal freedom to be stupid isn’t being infringed. You should be wearing a sign when you’re in public so everyone that sees you knows that you cannot be “guilt tripped” into doing the smart thing. There are T-Shirts for that.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:14 pm311. I don’t need to wear a sign. People that want to socially distance themselves from me are likewise free to do so. If I’m out in public, clearly the people out in public with me are just as “careless” as I am. Right?
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:15 pm@195
I don’t have the raw data, but I’m seeing executive summary reports that anti-HIV (ie, Kaletra) and anti-malarial (ie, Chloroqine) are very promising and indicates shorter recovery.
Chloroqine (and equivalents) are very cheap and would be a godsend if this turns out to be the effective to the current strains.
There’s also accelerated clinical trials for Remdesivir for compassionate use cases… but, from my understanding, it’s still investigational only available to locations participating in the study. I don’t see much clinical trial data, but the company Gilead touts this formulation as a broad-spectrum medication that was previously studied to treat SARS and other corona-virus infections.
whembly (51f28e) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:15 pm310. Actually, South Dakota. All of our CoViD-19 outbreaks so far here have been confined to our two major population centers in Pennington and Minnehaha counties.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:15 pmLet me see…
That’s fine, as long as you wear your sign.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:16 pm315. GFY Colonel. Kthxbye.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:17 pm“Chloroquine” appears to be very helpful, is what I’ve read.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:17 pmExcuse me?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:18 pm317. If there was any ounce of sense in that CoViD-19 task force, they would have already started importing Chloroquine en masse from wherever it could be found. I wonder why they haven’t, yet. Oh, that’s right. The FDA frowns on such off-label usage. SMDH…
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:18 pmI wouldn’t worry about it. Kevin doesn’t mean ill and the trolls just take advantage of any pile-on opportunity they get. This is just partisanship. It’s going to get so much worse, yet so much funnier, as Trump keeps telling us he didn’t need to prepare for the unexpected, because no one left in the administration expected that.
The GOP Senate is going to regret not impeaching this guy.
Dustin (9c58b3) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:18 pm( i know, the house impeaches )
Dustin (9c58b3) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:19 pm318. GFY, Colonel. Kthxbye.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:20 pm“Go get a cheek swab” would be more polite, thx…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:20 pmSo paraphrase: the worth of your community’s lives is “minimal”. And you know better than everyone and if they don’t like this attitude, they should “GFY”.
I hope you get to feeling better about things, because this is not coming from a happy heart. Hope you successfully avoid getting sick and everyone you care about does too. I’m more than happy to make some sacrifices in common with my neighbors, and I don’t see how that’s socialist. It’s just a fact Trump was wrong about this virus, and there’s never been any need for all of these campaigns of proving he was kinda right all along. From collusion to sexual assault to containing this virus, why bother? He’s a jackass. Enjoy watching Trump squirm and flip flop.
Dustin (9c58b3) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:23 pm@308. If you don’t have the bug it’s more about protecting yourself from other ignorant, less informed twits who could care less about you and rather spend money on a six-pack of Corona than on masks, gloves and hand-sanitizer to protect themselves– and you, from coronavirus.
‘Course if masks, gloves, Purell and other goodies are made free, the same folks will line up to get it–without standing two meters apart. You shudda seen the local news with adults, families– and kids, lined up at now closed schools between 11 AM and 1 PM for the free food.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:23 pm323. Oh, okay. Go swab your bottom cheeks, colonel (Klink).
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:23 pmI hope the nation’s major universities take this opportunity to cease accepting ChiCom money and end their role in the knowledge transfer and assistance with strengthening China’s position in the world.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:24 pm324. No, the risk to my community is minimal. My God, quit it with the straw men, people.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:25 pmHow do you define “community”?
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:31 pm329. I’m not the one trying to guilt trip people into giving up their freeedoms, Klink. I reject the question as irrelevant.
Gryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:31 pm@327. What– do you live on the ISS?
It’s a pandemic. Taking some very basic, down-to-earth precautions is just common sense.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:35 pmCan you drink as much Pappies as humanly possible then drive your car home? You don’t care about freedom, you care about convenience.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:35 pmChoosing to stay home more is freedom. Risk aversion is also reward aversion. Risk isn’t just bad stuff, and freedom isn’t just stuff you want to do. There’s two sides to these concepts.
In fact, the notion we don’t even need to care that poor social distancing will kills tens of thousands of people is goofy. Take all the politics out of it. It’s sociopathic.
Dustin (9c58b3) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:38 pmPappy’s for you city dwellers…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:41 pm@313. You do know the bug lives a while on things- some surfaces longer than others- transferred between people. Like gasoline pump handles used by people from those very population centers passing through your town– or fresher products distributed from major population centers such as bread packaging an such– even coins and paper currency… for instance, the local food stores are wary of new items coming in from Washington State– though most of the apples were cold-storaged from autumn– but the bagged pckages were more recently handled. It’s just a matter of going the extra mile to protect yourself from the more ignorant and could-care-less-twits among us.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:46 pm@306 A discussion was had on another thread yesterday. DCSCA feels like it’s acceptable terminology, though I do not find it to be so.
Nic (896fdf) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:47 pmIf you’re have lots of them, it’s plural. Of course, if you have plural then I’ll trade you a Parker’s Heritage #4, for a 2018 Pappy’s 23. I have two of the Parker’s.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (305827) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:49 pmAgain with broad swath generalizations, DC, I hear you on the min. Meters apart, but maybe these guys buying the beers and Takis stocked up on sanitizer and TP well in advance. If the store was just, it would mark up everything nonessential, like a gas station, to make up lost profit margin and preclude some buyers from walking in taking space.
Some of those clowns might have stockpiled much like the now famous Tenessee guy who is stuck with palletloads of small sanitizer bottles he was buying here and there since early February
urbanleftbehind (32b3e8) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:52 pmNow due to new Amazon rules, he was stuck with inventory, and was goaded into donating the stock.
@332. Choosing to stay home more is freedom…
It’s like Haiku said- some generations are called to war, millennials are being asked to sit home on the sofa. “They can do it.” Besides, with the I-phones, laptops, remote controls and assorted gadgetry around them- the world– and worlds above them, are at their fingertips. I still marvel that my niece can be awakened by her phone, click and scroll a few seconds– then review what the weather is like– on Mars, and not get out of bed.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:53 pm@335. Depends on where you reside an are willing to tolrate.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:55 pmGood point, Kevin M 292. It reminds me of francisco Garcia, the young spaniard who learned he had leukemia after being diagnosed with Coronavirus. Sadly, he died.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:04 pmThank you very much for your comment, whembly. My hope is Chloroquine helps since I think it would be something doctors might actually prescribe.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:07 pmGryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:04 pm
I’ve been saying because math and basic logic. The only reason I’ve seen from you for not taking steps to limit transmission is concern over your job. Do you have any argument, other than the average age of Italians, for why Americans could ignore the issue and not have something like what’s going on in Italy? Is France, Germany, Spain, Switzerland, etc. also just older and more susceptible.
If this were a large meteor headed to earth that experts said will cause a worldwide catastrophe and amateur astronomers could confirm that they can detect the object and confirm that it is on track to impact the earth. I would expect your reaction to be that previous meteors have impacted the earth with little effect, whatever hit Tunguska hit an unoccupied area, that thing that killed the dinosaurs is just a theory, and most of the earth is empty so it can’t be that bad. You’d also tell us that the math here is suspect anyway since most objects in space don’t intersect with the earth and that all of these experts were just trying to trick us into giving away our freedoms.
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:15 pmMAOA 282:
I don’t think we know that at all. You are assuming that since studies indicate that many kids and pregnant women (at least, the ones who are tested) have high levels of melatonin, then all kids and pregnant women do. Maybe, maybe not. It may be that you are right and the few who get very sick have lower levels of melatonin. But we don’t know that, there are no tests or studies showing that, and melatonin levels couod be unrelated to the people who get sick or their outcomes.
In addition, it sounds like her hypothesis is that melatonin is valuable because it prevents the activated immune system from overwhelming the body’s immune response once you already have the disease. I don’t see any argument that it helps the body avoid infection, only (at best) that it might keep the immune system from responding too much.
Yes, that is valuable, too, but from what I’ve read, the only non-prescription supplements that can help prevent the virus from attaching to the lungs are specific Vitamin C components. One problem is it is hard to take enough Vitamin C to get enough of those components. We can talk about that further if you want, but it seems your main focus is melatonin, and I agree it is interesting. It would be helpful if someone could do a melatonin study/blood tests on people who have coronavirus.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:16 pm@337. The school kids should get the meals– the adults w/o any kids in school are just taking food out of the mouths of children– literally. It’s BoE directive for three weeks so it is what it is; food banks would be a better way to distribute to the adults– but spoilage is a factor and getting it out of the school cafeterias an kitchens is at least something. Local PBS has agreed to televise class-related programming for students during the day. Local community access channels are helping out as well. The local officials ‘at street level’ re doing a good job fielding this– it’s much more reassuring than anything said from the podium in the WH Briefing Room.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:19 pmGryph (08c844) — 3/17/2020 @ 12:15 pm
No. This is so monumentally stupid it’s really hard to fathom. When you go to the store and interact with a clerk they are not just as careless as you. They may have people who depend on their income and they’ve made a risk assessment that other people are acting to reduce the spread. They are probably doing the best they can to reduce it as well. The only way they are just as careless as you is if they know you don’t care about spreading the virus and then they agree to interact with you.
This is the drunk driving example from before. Someone hit by a drunk driver didn’t assume the risk and aren’t just as careless as the drunk.
frosty (f27e97) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:28 pmDRJ, re- doctoring; spoke w/Scripps medical center yesterday to bump back the 89 year old’s appointment 30 days given the age susceptibility [and my own]and group gathering limitations- they said they’re recommending to all March/early April patients to reschedule appointments 60 days into May–and they only want to see ‘in office’ patients if absolutely necessary– or the patient insists on keeping the appointment. Local news last night reported the ‘infection projection’ for San Diego County is 30%– that one million people– and the county does not have that number hospital beds available, though they did not mention any access to military medical facilities, of which there are many in the SD region. The local city and county teams at ‘street level’ really seem to be trying to keep pace w/this as it changes so rapidly and it is much more reassuring than any generalities that come from WH briefings.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:33 pmThat is reassuring, DCSCA. I hope all our communities are doing their best to be as ready as your area.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:40 pmThe worse it gets, the more they seem to be loosening the rules about how things work. Good. That’s smart IMO.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 1:41 pm@347. Yeah, I wouldn’t pay too much attention to medical specifics coming out of the WH Briefing Room anymore- what they say is more to quell fear on Wall Street than to quash the bug on Main Street. The county and city officials, medical facilities and such, at least around here, seem to be responsive and as proactive as they can– and the merchants/food stores are cooperating, too [when is the last time you saw Campbell’s Soup at 15-17 cents a can?!] The Mickey Dees, Burger Kings, pizza places etc., will do drive-thru/pick-up, but no seated dining– and the wokers are masked and gloved. But the bars aren’t too thrilled w/losing all that ‘green’- especially today.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 2:00 pmCapitalism. Yay!
DRJ (15874d) — 3/17/2020 @ 2:04 pm@350. Bars closed and sodium saturated soup sold at a loss for 15-17 cents a can?!
Reaganomics! Yay! 😉
DCSCA (797bc0) — 3/17/2020 @ 2:08 pmExcept, and according to the list that Kevin took time to compile and YOU took time to try to slime me over, I injected greetings to mark the day, a little humor, some music, and a movie to watch while confined.
I objected to it being said I, personally, was “thread-jacking” “again” for talking about the subject of the thread, by a person who was NOT talking about the subject of the thread.
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:30 pmAnd what did I say that was untruthful to “slime” you?
Kevin M (ab1c11) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:31 pmThe one thing Kevin got wrong was Ragspierre’s Irish music from the troubles. That’s dope.
Ireland should be re-united.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:31 pmKevin, DOOOOD, look up “thread jack”. You do it ad nauseam.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:41 pmIf you’re have lots of them, your work are dun.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:42 pmCapitalism. Yay!
Overrated. (Private ownership of the means of production not overrated.)
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:42 pmOverrated. (Private ownership of the means of production not overrated.)
The alt-righties are BIG fans of central planning. Like their Daddy.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:45 pmI think what Ragspierre means to say is he wishes you wouldn’t disagree with him and the consensus here (in this extreme minority portion of the conservative movement) so cogently. He likes an audience who thinks his juvenile name-calling of Trump and his supporters is witty. I’m guessing that Ragspierre himself intentionally going to where people disagree with him politically is rare. He seems to disapprove of it.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 3/17/2020 @ 3:47 pmI think…
Now, see, that’s your first falsehood.
…what Ragspierre means to say is he wishes you wouldn’t disagree with him and the consensus here (in this extreme minority portion of the conservative movement) so cogently.
Nope. I say what I mean quite well, and I don’t care about ol’ Kev disagreeing with me, nor do I find him particularly “cogent”.
I just get sick of his thread jacks. I devoutly wish he’d push away from the keyboard at least occasionally.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 3/17/2020 @ 4:15 pmCBS News reported yesterday that China reported (they reported it as fact) only one (1) more new case of Covid-19 that originated in China (plus 20 imported cases that will have to quarantine – non Chinese citizens “on their own dime” according to CBS.)
It’s not true that no one under age 29 gets very sick. Children’s immune system reacts faster and better to new infections, but when they are very young, particularly pre-K or younger they can become seriously ill.
There waa an analysis in China of 2,143 cases of children under 18 up to February 8. (There’s a reason Chinese studies by medical researcher who want to produce something useful, stop at February 8 or February 11. That’s before they began minimizing cases again, and perhaps befpre they began treating may people with an effective treatment).)
Just over a third of the cases were diagnosed with laboratory testing and the remaining two thirds were classified as coronovirus based on symptoms, X-Rays, other blood tests and whether the child had been exposed been exposed to people with coronovirus.
About 4% had no symptoms at all, and they must have been confirmed by the PCR test. About half of the 2,143 children had mild sysmptoms. (that is an underestimate of the ratio because the probability of bein diagnosed with coronovirus went up with sickness.)
But 125 of them (5.8% became very ill, 13 of them (13/125 = 10.4%) were considered critical (reaching at least the brink of respiratory or other organ failure) and 1 14 year old boy died.
(1/13 = 7.7%, 1/125 = 0.8% and 1/2143 = 0.05%)
There were more serious cases among those with ony suspected cases of coronovirus, leaving open the idea again, that there was a second pathogen involved – in fact that’s usually the case when influenza kills people.
There;s also the theory (whether this has actually been looked at to confirm or rebut I don’t know) that the ACE receptor that the vorus binds too might not be as common in children or maybe is different in some way, bt you don;;t need such a theory to explain it.
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/18/2020 @ 8:15 amBoth Biden and the Trump administration are getting their facts wrong.
1) The World Health Organization never offered any free tests to the United States.
AND
2) Their tests were proven to work (except of course, not as far as the FDA is concerned. But that’s not real. They are god regardless of whether the FDA approves of them or not.)
Of course the World Health Organization has its own misstatements of fact. It is still insisting that it is not transported through the air. (are they the ones responsible for the handwashing advice?)
Sammy Finkelman (e4c3a1) — 3/18/2020 @ 8:21 am