Aftermath: Republicans Launch Attack On Principled Colleague For His Principled Stand
[guest post by Dana]
In a follow-up to Mitt Romney’s impeachment vote, it’s interesting to see the Trump loyalists go after him. Instead of lauding one of their own for standing on his principles and voting his conscience, especially knowing the fallout would be hard and swift, Romney has not just been attacked by Trump, which we expected, he is also being attacked by fellow Republicans who clearly want to stay in the good graces of their boss:
A state representative called Thursday for U.S. Sen. Mitt Romney to be censured for his vote to convict President Donald Trump for abuse of power, the same day Romney came to Utah’s Capitol to meet privately with Republicans leaders of the Legislature to explain his action.
The censure resolution pairs with a bill filed last week that would give Utah voters the ability to recall their U.S. senators that is attracting even more attention now that Romney broke with his party. Utah House Speaker Brad Wilson, R-Kaysville, also filed a resolution “paying tribute” to Trump.
[…]
The sponsor of the censure resolution, Rep. Phil Lyman, R-Blanding, said he didn’t want Utah’s relationship with Trump to be “damaged by the actions of Sen. Romney.” …
“I wanted to send a message that Utah supports President Trump,” Lyman said. “I didn’t want that message to be lost.”
According to the report, the GOP state Senate was not interested in pursing the resolution, but would rather move on from the impeachment.
Also, Rep. Matt Gaetz, bootlicker from Florida, has called for Romney to be expelled from the Senate Republican caucus:
“If I were [Senate Majority Leader] Mitch McConnell I would expel Mitt Romney from the Republican caucus,” Gaetz said in an interview on Fox News’ Lou Dobbs Tonight. “He is not acting like a Republican. He has shown no interest in working with this administration, or with Republicans who are eager to seize the opportunity of the Trump presidency.”
“Frankly, I don’t know what the difference is between Mitt Romney and a Democrat at this point,” Gaetz continued.
And here are some more jabs coming from Republicans:
Florida Senator Rick Scott tweeted that his colleague “is wrong”. “His decision to buy into [Democratic Congressman] Adam Schiff’s partisan charade is disappointing. And he will ultimately be judged by the voters of Utah.”
Florida Republican Congressmen Matt Gaetz of Florida and Lee Zeldin of New York both called Mr Romney a “sore loser”.
“Mitt Romney absolutely despises that Donald Trump was elected POTUS & he was not,” tweeted Mr Zeldin.
“The sore loser mentality launched this sham impeachment & corruptly rigged & jammed it through the House. It looks like Schiff recruited himself a sore loser buddy on the GOP side to play along.”
Sam Nunberg, a former adviser to Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign, rhetorically asked if Mr Romney was “making a last ditch effort to become” the Democratic 2020 nominee.
Anyway, Romney was prepared for the fallout:
Speaking with The New York Times podcast “The Daily,” Romney said he expects “unimaginable” consequences for his vote, adding that he does not yet know what they will be.
“My personal and political and team affiliation made me very much not want to convict,” he said. “I mean, I want to be with my colleagues in the Senate. I don’t want to be the skunk at the garden party. I don’t want to have the disdain of Republicans across the country.”
I was unsurprised that two-faced Democratic leaders would do a quick turn-around and sing Romney’s praises after the vote – a politican they happily smeared to win an election. It would have been a shock to see Republicans attack Romney for choosing fidelity to his conscience over loyalty to Trump and the Party, if I didn’t already understand that Republican talk about values, principles, and foundational beliefs doesn’t amount to a hill of beans these days. But then you already knew that, too.
By doing the right thing, @MittRomney made thousands of new enemies yesterday. Help us thank him for standing up for the rule of law.https://t.co/Ppoa9Op2m2 pic.twitter.com/u1J43dvb9q
— Republicans for the Rule of Law (@ForTheRuleOfLaw) February 6, 2020
–Dana
What a bunch of weenies.
Dana (aaddb1) — 2/7/2020 @ 11:22 am<3
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 11:26 amI guess if the definition of Conservative is Trump this makes perfect sense.
Time123 (f5cf77) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:15 pmWhich is why 2020 will be the first year ever that I don’t donate or vote for any GOP candidate. They’re crooked, they won’t put the country or our laws first and I just can’t trust them. May have to leave a lot of fields blank.
That’s pretty much what it comes down to. I was posting Trump-critical comments elsewhere during the 2015-16 primaries, and I would be labeled a leftist, a Bernie-bot, a Hillary-lover, etc., even back then — just for doubting the virtues of Donald Trump!
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:23 pmIt isn’t just “Conservative = Trump” either. Notice how easily so many of the Trump faithful accept Trump’s notion that opposing Trump in any way is an attack on America.
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:25 pmHow handy that Trump can use classification power to shield himself from accountability.
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:30 pmOh, but it’s WaPo — “credibility” issues and all.
I wanted to attack Romney for campaigning so pathetically. Everything he’s done since then has just made it worse.
My joy has little to do with Trump, a lot to do with despising Romney.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:34 pmI don’t think “Principaled” means what you think it means. I don’t know why I wait for this fauxervative to awaken. Oh well
Watcher (6270d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:35 pmLOL you should write a haiku about it.
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:47 pmI wish I had that talent because that’s a great idea.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:51 pmRomney was so bad
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:53 pmthat I got a VPN
and trolled like a b****
Meanwhile, Utah’s other Senator, who I once respected, goes full happyfeet:
Dave (1bb933) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:53 pmOnce upon a time
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:55 pmThere was a bunch of rich guys
who were big chickens
The sheer pettiness of some Trump supporters just boggles my mind. But of course they get it straight from their leader.
JVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:02 pm‘It isn’t just “Conservative = Trump” either.’
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:25 pm
But yeah it’s Principled = Mitt.
So much begging the question in this post, it’s a case study.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:04 pmRevenge is far from pettiness. Patterico understands its nature. It’s pour encourager les autres.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:04 pmMeanwhile, Utah’s other Senator, who I once respected, goes full happyfeet:
I don’t have a problem with what Mike Lee tweeted. Yeah, I know, the kids would say that he was “subtweeting” Romney or whatever that trick is, and I could do without the relatively mild toadyism, but it’s nowhere near as obnoxious as Gaetz or Zeldin said.
JVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:05 pmBesides, Trump did bury the hatchet once with Mitt already, even endorsed him. Two months lady, Mittens turned.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:06 pm*later
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:06 pmSpot on:
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:08 pmhttps://patterico.com/2015/01/15/no-to-mitt-romney/
Revenge is far from pettiness.
Exactly what outrage needs to be avenged? Trump wasn’t removed from office. Yeah, he was embarrassed and had to endure slings and arrows from a bunch of attack poodles like Adam Schiff, but there is nothing about this outcome that requires going to the mattresses mafia style. If Trump had one iota of class he would have said a mild “in your face” to House Democrats then suggested that we all “move forward and continue with the work of keeping America great.”
JVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:10 pmOur agenda was derailed, which was their purpose.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:13 pmThey’re not going to stop. He’s done with niceties, and is moving to stop them.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:14 pmTrump reminds me of a famous Italian Politician (no not Mussolini but I was tempted). It is Silvio Berlusconi, another media rich guy who played the nationalist card and was a bit of a sleaze with his famous “boom-boom” parties. Initially he was praised as a strong leader but he fell afoul of ethics and his business holdings, particularly vast conflicts of interest. When he was forced to retire crowd sung the “Hallelujah Chorus” to celebrate.
Something the President should study if he were a studious man.
dirtyjobsguy (96cdc8) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:18 pmWe’re talking about the government of a nation. Do you not understand that?
Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:19 pmI forgive Republicans for toeing the line and following along behind Trump. Even Romney has done that at times. But that doesn’t mean they have to be toadies, like these lickspittles are. It’s one thing to make some general supportive comment when it’s impossible not to speak (e.g. Nikki Haley saying she didn’t think Trump’s actions rose to the level required for removal — a defensible view) and it’s another thing to be a bully’s running dogs and proxies.
I am happy that no one I respect is piling on.
They should be careful. Piss Romney off enough and he might run an independent campaign. With a bad enough Dem nominee he might get enough support to matter.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:19 pmWe’re talking about the government of a nation. Do you not understand that?
We’re talking about a populist choice to rip said government a new assh0le. Do you not understand that?
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:21 pmOur agenda was derailed, which was their purpose.
Our agenda was derailed when the Democrats won the House in the midterm election.
JVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:23 pmMeanwhile, Utah’s other Senator, who I once respected, goes full happyfeet:
I believe to go full happyfeet on Romney, you’d have to use a bunch of pervy words that (thanks to hf) get your post in moderation jail.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:24 pmOur agenda was derailed when the Democrats won the House in the midterm election.
I believe that district court grandees and bureaucrats deep within The Blob were doing that long before the mid-terms.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:26 pmWas Romney “principled” when he asked Trump to make him Secretary of State?
DN (095be6) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:27 pmromney: Korihor and zelph made me do it!
asset (174a7f) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:29 pmThere are those here who find Trump so repulsive that they oppose him and all his policies. Policies they would have supported from another president are anathema because they come from Trump. Trump could announce a cure for cancer and they would oppose him, even if they had cancer.
There are those here who treat Trump as a god. Anything he says or does, even if it contradicts something he said just yesterday (including whether he said it just yesterday) gets their unqualified support. Trump could announce he was nuking their home town, and they’d bake a cake for the missiles.
Both sides seem to think I’m on the other side. Not so. I’m just trying to find a sensible path. I opposed Trump’s nomination, and I voted “present” in 2016. I have come to understand the dynamic behind Trump’s rise and I just wish that someone more sensible had seen the discontent and acted first. Sadly no.
So, I take both sides and neither. This doesn’t seem to be a good time for sides. Particularly when there is no one on offer that’s better than Trump in the great and vast land. Show me one and I’ll reconsider.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:39 pmOur agenda was derailed when Donald Trump won the primary in 2016.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:42 pmThe reason for this is because, since according to them, Trump is extremely innocent, it follows inexorably, that everyone realizes that, and Romney must have done something wrong out of pique.
Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:44 pmShow me where I said “Principled = Mitt.”
I don’t think I’ve heard anyone say that one must line up with Romney at all times in order to be considered a principled person. But there are people (including Trump’s “faith advisor”) who hold that opposing Trump is pretty nearly the same as being anti-American or opposing the “real America.”
I haven’t seen any Trump defender objecting to Trump’s characterization of the impeachment — which was supported by at least half the country — as an attack on America. On the contrary, they’re essentially taking the position that it was all very unpatriotic (because Trump “loves America!!”).
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:44 pmActually, Utah, overall, does not.
That’s part of the reason Romney did this.
Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:45 pmWas he any less principled than all the people who used to tell us how horrible they found Trump to be — but now find it in their interest to tell us how wonderful he is, and to trash the integrity of anyone who still criticizes him for the very same things they used to?
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:48 pmTrump needs to go full haircut bully on Mitt.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:48 pm7. Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 12:34 pm
He was bamboozled by Obama when Obama brought out that he had described the attack in Benghazi as terrorism early on.
What ROmney didn;t know, is that all through the rest of the week, they unlearned that.
Romney’s not well informed, and probably doesn’t have curiosity.
You could criticize him for this vote too, but the criticism isn’t that he made a mistake – that he limited himself to the defenses offered by the president’s lawyers..
Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:51 pmSo we’re supposed to praise Mittens for being so BRAVE and FEARLESS. But also get upset that he’s getting any blow-back at all! Anyway, as stated in the post, Romney is getting harmed in any real way, the Utah Legislature is uninterested in censure and Utah Republican party isn’t either. In any case, Mittens will stay a Senator till 2024, and McConnell has zero plans to discipline.
Bottom Line: Other than some Love from the NYT/WaPo Romney is completey unaffected by his childish jealous backstabbing of Trump.
rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:04 pmOur agenda was derailed when Donald Trump won the primary in 2016.
Yes, but large numbers of right-of-center people thought your agenda sucked.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:05 pmI was extremely happy by Romney’s backstab, since it was completely symbolic and shows the world he’s a jealous little girl who will NEVER be a team player or get over the fact that Trump succeeded where he failed.
Even the biggest gullible Republican rube has been shown that Mittens is a RINO.
rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:07 pmSo, wait – you mean the Great Leader was bested?
By … Liddle Adam Schiff?
The Democrats won?
Donald “Are we tired of winning yet?” Trump actually lost?!?
HERETIC!
You seem to have forgotten that everything that transpires in this world does so for the greater glory of the Leader, and in furtherance of His Plan. Not a sparrow falls outside His care.
You’d better start singing from the right page of the hymnal, or you’ll be branded an apostate and denied communion with The Chosen One. He is the Trump, your Trump.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:10 pmWas Romney “principled” when he asked Trump to make him Secretary of State?
Depends on what you call a principle. Seeing a need to serve his country, and offering his service to someone he despised was, to me, an act of the highest principle: patriotism. Similarly for Jim Mattis and Rex Tillerson and several other mainstream Republicans who thought to serve.
That Trump dissed Romney and the others quit in disgust does not mean they were sucking up to Trump, but that they felt that the country needed lots of help, given Trump.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:11 pmActually, Utah, overall, does not.
They aren’t going to vote for the Democrat, though. This is indeed a “lesser of two evils” election.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:13 pmWhich is illustrative that the people calling themselves “right of center” have redefined the first principles of what the left/right divide was. Culture wars, vindictiveness, vengefulness, trolling as policy vs fiscal sanity, modest governance, honesty, constitutional respect.
So, if right of center does not denote conservative, in any way, and just means Team R, then you’re probably correct. It also means that over the long term, Team R will become a 3rd party, this split has happened before, so it’s not like it’s a new concept, it also means that Team D is probably in line for another generational leadership of the US.
Maybe that was the plan all along, get Trump elected, backlash puts Dems in charge for 20 years. Trump was a Democrat for most of his life.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:18 pmSo you think Trump gave him an interview after Romney cold-called and asked for the job?
You guys will believe/repeat anything.
In the immediate aftermath of the election, there were some who foolishly hoped Trump might moderate his behavior and actually start behaving like a president instead of a sociopathic imbecile. After all, he had promised to do exactly that.
While I harbored no such illusions, it’s possible that Romney hoped Trump would rise to meet his new responsibilities instead of sinking even further into depravity as he sadly wound up doing.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:20 pmWhen you take this vote (the only Republican in the Senate/House to vote for conviction/impeachment) with this WaPo Op-ed’s attacking Trump, his constant hectoring and opposition to Trump Fed Nominees, the border wall and border enforcement and add in the hysterical criticism of Trump’s Northern Syria pullout, its obvious that Romney is motivated by a personal dislike of Trump and not Policy. His other motivation is his once-a-secret Pierre Delecto Liberalism.
Romney has flip-flopped and lied about his beliefs so often people believe he’s “severally conservative” – he’s not. He ran to the left of Ted Kennedy in ’92, he didn’t support Reagan in the 80’s. and he was a moderate Governor of Massachusetts. He’s a big Government Republican, who wants to reach across the aisle and “find solutions”. He wants to take action on Climate Change. He’s really just a pragmatic, moderate Businessman who doesn’t’ like to pay taxes.
rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:20 pmMitt didn’t know Orin Hatch was going to retire in December 2016. Begging Trump for Sec. of State looked like his only shot at being politically relevant. I think Trump seriously considered him, but thought Tillerson had the same beliefs, without all the baggage, and also knew more of the world then Mittens.
Had Romney become Sec of state, with God as his co-pilot, he would have constantly clashed with Trump. When’s the last time Mittens was a subordinate? Pius Romney would have hankered after that Washington establishment WaPo/NYT love and started leaking like a sieve. I doubt he would’ve lasted six months. And Romney definitively would’ve quit after Charlottsville. The chance to grandstand and virtue signal would’ve been irresistible.
rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:27 pmWhich is illustrative that the people calling themselves “right of center” have redefined the first principles of what the left/right divide was.
Well, sure, if you define the “Right” narrowly, then you can have it all your own.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:28 pmJVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 1:10 pm
This is a rule that only applies to R’s. It’s the roadrunner rule.
This doesn’t apply to D’s and LBJ is probably the best example of this. And after all, we keep being told that Trump isn’t a real R. Can’t expect the R only rules to apply to him. No one would believe him anyway or believe his opponents would do anything other than laugh at the gesture.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:33 pmIt’s amusing to see a Trump defender pretending to be aghast at childish, jealous behavior.
Also, taking a stance out in the open in the course of fulfilling responsibilities as an elected representative of a state is not “backstabbing.” As usual, Trump defenders redefine terms to give them a Trump-centric meaning.
And the people who think that refusing to line up uncritically behind Trump is a form of treachery are the very same people who’ve been complaining about how “partisan” the whole process was.
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:34 pmClink,
Where you get the notion that the GOP has ever been a “conservative” party?
Right-of-center includes LOTS AND LOTS more than “conservative.” As if “conservative” even means anything, anyway. Can you support abortion rights and be conservative? How about you support the New Deal programs? How many generations back does a change have to be to remain “conservative.” Too far back and you’re supporting slavery.
To me, the real divide is statism vs liberty. And, no, Trump isn’t perfect but he’s clearly not a virulent statist like every last member of the Democrat Party.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:35 pmTrump defenders obviously aren’t bothered by lies and flip-flopping. So their only real gripe with Romney is that he doesn’t bow down to Trump.
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:37 pm54. Are you sure about that, Kevin? Vera Coking and Michael Forbes might disagree with you.
Gryph (08c844) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:37 pm49. Let’s then stipulate that Romney has indeed lied and flip-flopped. Then I’ll say it again:
There is not a dime’s worth of difference between the two major political parties in America.
Gryph (08c844) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:38 pm“My personal and political and team affiliation made me very much not want to convict.”
His personal affiliation: His dad was a Democrat.
His political affiliation: Brought about RomneyCare in Massachusetts, was widely considered the biggest RINO by the conservative rank and file (well, he would have been if John McCain hadn’t existed) before the RNC forced him on the rank and file to avoid DANGEROUS RON PAUL VALUES.
His team affiliation: He is and has always been on Team Romney. Team Romney didn’t care about what the 47% did, Team Romney will gladly leverage a Senate seat for all the power, wealth, and influence it can get him, Team Romney knows that dirty looks and missed calls from Senators for a few years are worth being able to give speeches on college campuses without security, be invited on late-night shows, and fleece a much larger cross-section of donors after his work in government service.
Yes, he is looking to the long term, no, that doesn’t mean anyone should admire him for it. But let’s all soak up Pat’s 2015 wisdom since he never seems to be in the mood to quote Glengarry Glen Ross lately:
https://patterico.com/2015/01/15/no-to-mitt-romney/
“Why am I here? I came here because Mitch and Murray asked me to. They asked me for a favor. I said: “The real favor: follow my advice and fire your [expletive deleted] because a loser is a loser.”
“You know what it takes to succeed in politics? It takes brass balls to succeed in politics.”
Well, that certainly doesn’t remind me of anyone!
Peter Principles (7edcb9) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:45 pmGryph–
There is a difference between using existing bad laws and seeking new, worse, ones. This is the mistake that Libertarians make — they pretend that the universe runs according to their principles when it does not. I may think that the home mortgage deduction is wrong, but I will still take it.
Eminent domain sucks, particularly used as it was (albeit legally according to Kelo). But it was put in the Constitution by some very “libertarian” people, and suing it does not make one a statist.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:54 pm*suing = using
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:56 pmI agree that calling a public vote and speech, against your whole party’s corrupt practice and corrupt leader “backstabbing” is a ridiculous use of the term. This was a completely out in the open, face to face, sort of principled stand.
It is also amazing to blame Romney for agreeing to show up at Trump’s freaking invitation for the Secretary of State job, when all Trump wanted was to publicly reject Romney. Now that’s backstabbing.
But hey, everything good applies to Trump and everything bad applies to Trump’s critics. That’s the new patriotism. Nothing dangerous there!
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:57 pmGryph–
Please list the statist laws that run roughshod over the individual that Trump has signed, offered or otherwise championed. Compare to the DNC which endorses the Green New Deal at the platform level.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:57 pmRadegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:37 pm
My gripe with Romney is that he’s a lying self-dealing politician that will do or say what is required to keep his grift going and then hides behind his faith to justify it. This gripe predated 2016/Trump.
My current gripe isn’t with Romney per se. It’s with people who play along with his nonsense. It’s expected of D’s but if your self proclaimed characteristic is standing by your principles and Romney, in some sort of 1984 callback, has always been the True Beacon of Principles (TM) then I’m going to point and laugh. Trying to deflect with claims of Trump Cult (TM) is only going to make the situation more ridiculous.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/7/2020 @ 2:59 pmNothing corrupt about our Great President. We’re lucky to have such an honest, pure-hearted Patriot as our Leader! MAGA!!
Radegunda (5ab384) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:09 pmBut it was put in the Constitution by some very “libertarian” people, and suing it does not make one a statist.
The way The Man From Restle-mania tried to use it in Atlantic SURE AS HELL WAS!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:21 pmPlease list the statist laws that run roughshod over the individual that Trump has signed, offered or otherwise championed.
Tariffs based on his diktats predicated on lies.
That’s several, to start with. T-rump is a right Progressive who LOVES BIG GOVERNMENT.
Always has been.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:25 pmIt’s like you guys all say it in unison with kool aid dribbling out or something.
OK we get it you’re not a cult. You just all repeat what you’re told and are furious at any points that make the fuhrer look bad. And black people.
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:27 pm62. Vera Coking and Michael Forbes fought back against Trump’s use of Eminent Domain to attempt (and fail in both instances) to steal their land for use as parking lots for his private businesses. If this isn’t “statist to the core,” it sure as hell isn’t any kind of “liberty-loving” by my understanding of the term.
Michael Forbes, in particular, was hailed a hometown hero precisely for telling Trump exactly what he could do with the money Forbes was offered for his farm. Good on Forbes.
Gryph (08c844) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:27 pmLet me also stipulate, I know that Trump’s attempts to use eminent domain were legal. That doesn’t make it right.
Gryph (08c844) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:32 pmDustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:27 pm
Yep, Mr. I Don’t Do Talking Points but (spins wheel) fuhrer/dictator, (spins again) racism, (again) troll, (again) cult.
Every post you’ve made in this thread so far is some sort of insult from the standard anti-Trump playbook.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:46 pmSeveral senators that I had some respect for (a few, quite a bit of respect) only days ago have fallen off the charts.
The whole ordeal is disgusting and sad. All sides are covered in infamy.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:48 pmMy favorites are the ones that allege it’s the Presiden’t supporters, the President with 94% approval rating from Republicans, that need and have “paid trolls.”
As if the supporters of the President of the United States aren’t numerous enough to leave some comments here of their own accord.
Do these people hear themselves think?
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:51 pmCarpetbaggers are not principled; they’re opportunists.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:52 pmMake America Ordered Again
You may not be paid, but I can show you trolling the night of the SOTU, and will show you a liar if you deny it.
BTW, trolling is a well-defined act.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:54 pmCarpetbaggers are not principled; they’re opportunists.
One of the more stupid false allegations made against Romney.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 3:56 pmmittens is the classic political transcontinental grifter is more like it. as well as a world class pos.
mg (8cbc69) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:04 pmI believe the word you are looking for is “gloating.”
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:04 pmWhere, when, how and WHY you “gloat” is trolling.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:21 pmRepublican talk about values, principles, and foundational beliefs doesn’t amount to a hill of beans these days
Bless your heart.
Reminds me of the story of the ladies walking past the bawdy house when they see the Baptist preacher coming out and they’re aghast. “How shameful!” they say. Later, they see the Methodist minister emerge and are similarly shocked. “What is this world coming to!” they say. Next, they see their own Father Flannery step out through the door and they say “Ah, what a blessing it is to see the good Father ministering even to the sinners in this low place.”
For all their talk of values and principles and foundational beliefs, Republicans haven’t been visiting the low road just to see what it looks like – they enjoy the stroll just as much as any Democrat.
Jerryskids (702a61) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:28 pmMatt Gaetz, bootlicker from Florida, has called for Romney to be expelled from the Senate:
kaf (c408bb) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:32 pmThis is incorrect. he is calling for him to be booted from the Republican caucus. Still dumb, but not quite as dumb as you imply.
As someone stated above, Mittens’ attempt to be “The New Maverick” will fail. Mitt’s a freshman Senator and instead of keeping his mouth shut and LEARNING from the Old bulls, he’s been Mr. drama queen and Mr. Wild Card. I wonder how Collins feels? She voted to acquit because she didn’t want Trump to have a bi-partisan guilty vote. And then Mitt voted against Trump anyway! I wonder if Mittens told her before she made HER speech? I doubt it. If she’d known, she could have voted “Guilty” on ONE count too, and made some hay on that vote in Liberal Maine.
McCain, however obnoxious he came across, was able to “Team up” with other Senators to change things. He was also a Defense expert. I don’t think Romney can team up with anyone. He’s just too egotistical and has no firm political principles. And he has no expertise except business, which is not in short supply.
rcocean (1a839e) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:43 pmHe’s just too egotistical and has no firm political principles. And he has no expertise except business, which is not in short supply.
You do realize, don’t you, that describes Trump just as much as Romney.
Except Romney has actual expertise in business and Trump foesn’t.
Kishnevi (822e2f) — 2/7/2020 @ 4:56 pm@75. Except he is. And he knows it.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:05 pmI love how all the long knives come out here for the sake of purity. /sarc
My guess, on the the key policy issues, most of us here are 75% or more aligned. Yet we fight like bitter enemies because of purity. Romney is not pure enough, he lacks this or that. If he votes our way, he is a paragon of virtue, he votes against, he is Benedict Arnold, RINO, back-stabbing, two-faced, whatever.
We fight over Trump as well. Instead of uniting and fighting FOR the principles we espouse we bicker and name call and berate because someone is not sufficiently pro or anti Trump. If you are not fully committed to purging Trump, you are a Trump Humper. If you are not supporting Trump 100%, you are a Never Trumper. In some cases there ARE people who are so committed to their cause that they cannot accept any compromise. What a foolish waste of time and energy.
Thank people for wanting limited government, conservative judges, lower regulations. Then respectfully debate whether Trump is hurting or harming the cause. I “hear” lip service that there are rational reasons to support Trump, but then anyone who comes here and DOES get blasted as a Troll, sock puppet or worse.
Romney did what he did. Move on. Trump was not convicted. Move on. Trump gloated over his victory, so what? We already knew he would. The good news is that Mitch pushed for cloture on more judges. Thank goodness Hillary is not POTUS.
A house divided…
Plan what we can do going forward given the reality we have in front of us. If Romney is not aligned with his voters in Utah, he will be removed, in the mean time, cultivate his vote to keep the agenda Trump has unexpectedly championed and ride it for all its worth.
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:24 pmDCSCA (797bc0)
I guess you can chant that lie if you want. I can’t see how it benefits you.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:26 pm@85. Labelling him a carpetbagger isn’t a “lie.” It’s reality. Deal with it; he has.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:28 pmThis is a rule that only applies to R’s. It’s the roadrunner rule.
Lord knows, I’m not arguing that President Trump needs to be accommodating of Democrats in terms of signing on to their idiotic agenda. I would just prefer that instead of gloating to their faces that he smile at them, pat them on the back, then kick them in the ass when they turn around. There’s a lot to be said for the Barack Obama “Look, I just really want to work with the Republicans on an agenda that’s good for all Americans” pablum that he continually would spew forth. We all knew he was lying, but the rubes ate it up and it is why he remained personally popular even as his policies were largely ineffective.
JVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:32 pmSo, wait, you mean it’s 1865 again?
Somebody told me it was 1964.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:32 pmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmwzGMmGcJw
A nose by any other name couldn’t be browner. Carpetbaggers are opportunists.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:33 pmLabelling him a carpetbagger isn’t a “lie.”
Sure it is. It’s a particularly stupid lie. What does that make you?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:37 pm@90. Except it’s not. Deal with it. He has.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:39 pm@87. JVW- re- Demo-lition- Debate. Steyer’s got that 1956 plaid tie on again.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:41 pmLabelling (sic) him a carpetbagger isn’t a “lie.”
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:42 pmSure it is. It’s a particularly stupid lie. What does that make you?
@93.What does that make you?
Correct. You, not so much:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/8/mitt-romney-under-attack-utah-liberal-masachussett/
Mr. Romney, despite his close ties to Utah and summer home there, was branded a carpetbagger by state GOP officials as soon as he signaled interest in replacing retiring Sen. Orrin Hatch.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:49 pmAKA the people no one should trust.
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:56 pmRomney was also very successful in evading being drafted into the military during Vietnam Nam, with multiple deferments.
Wikipedia
“During the U.S. military draft for the Vietnam War, Romney sought and received two 2-S student deferments, then a 4-D ministerial deferment while living in France as a missionary. He later sought and received two additional student deferments.[29][51] When those ran out, the result of the December 1969 draft lottery where he drew number 300 ensured he would not be drafted.”
McKiernan (e30982) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:56 pmYou’re so mad for no reason. I mean I know the reason. Because being angry is basically the most common Trump talking point of all. Projection is the second most common. By all means call me whatever you like while licking boots and pretending to be objective about it. By all means. I think it’s hilarious.
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:58 pmEvery post you’ve made in this thread so far is some sort of insult from the standard anti-Trump playbook.
I wish. It would be less work. But a good tactic is a tactic that’s fun for your people and if a tactic drags on too long it becomes a drag, so I’m always struggling to find new ways to insult Trump.
nk (1d9030) — 2/7/2020 @ 6:04 pmRepublican Senate caucus.
There you go, kaf. I assumed our astute readers understood, given the first sentence of the quote.
Dana (aaddb1) — 2/7/2020 @ 6:09 pmI’m going to watch a good ol’ movie…
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
That’s the one where Jimmy Stewart’s character is the carpetbagger who comes to town making trouble for the native sons of the soil…
There are some REAL idiots here.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 6:20 pmWhat is there to understand? You were sloppy.
kaf (8a536b) — 2/7/2020 @ 6:37 pmJaysus- if we all got a buck for every time JoeyBee said ‘here’s the deal’ tonite we could buy New Hampshire.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 2/7/2020 @ 6:47 pmJVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 5:32 pm
I get it, and I agree, but this has everything to do with their base.
BO had to walk a fine line. He couldn’t get close to the angry black man stereotype. He had carefully cultivated a certain image and he had to play to that. He was the healer, the one who brings people together, and the one who’s arrival would stop the oceans from rising. And it worked for him. In general it was easy for his supporters to brush aside most criticism as racist.
Trump is playing to a very different crowd. The surest way for his poll numbers to go down is for him to be conciliatory. He wasn’t elected to be bipartisan and I’m not sure he can pull off the rope a dope. Say what you will about Nancy and her crew but they aren’t stupid or inexperienced.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/7/2020 @ 6:54 pm“Republican Senate caucus” is three words, Dana. One word too many for kaf’s pea-brain (or is that pee-brain like his Russian hooker consorting bud’s?) to encompass.
nk (1d9030) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:17 pmI doubt it. If she’d known, she could have voted “Guilty” on ONE count too, and made some hay on that vote in Liberal Maine.
Nah, Sen. Collins knows she will be in a tight race this fall and decided that she was better off shoring up her Republican base than trying to appeal to the moderates right now. She was going to vote to acquit one way or the other and just hopes that this will all blow-over by November, or that someone awful like Sanders will be atop the Dems’ ticket. She’s way too wishy-washy for my overall tastes, but when she chips are down she’s generally reliable. Romney doesn’t face the voters for another four years, he’s already into his seventies and many not want another term, and thought Trump’s agenda may be overall popular in Utah there are a lot of people who don’t like his style. He had every reason to make this play.
JVW (54fd0b) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:22 pm“He had every reason to make this play.”
Of course. The main reason was he it would cost him nothing.
DN (095be6) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:35 pmOr maybe he just thought Trump was guilty (as fantastic as that may sound) and didn’t want to suck his ass like the others (as unbelievable as that may sound).
nk (1d9030) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:40 pmThe main reason was he it would cost him nothing.
Unless being called everything but a child of god by various idiots could be counted as “something”.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:50 pmyes, yes, it does sound unbelievable that anybody would pass up the opportunity to suck mr. president trump’s ass
it is soooo sweet
just ask any trump supporter
nk (1d9030) — 2/7/2020 @ 7:57 pmIf the D’s want the best chance to win against Trump they should recruit Romney. It sounds like his numbers are pretty good.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/7/2020 @ 8:01 pmLet me also stipulate, I know that Trump’s attempts to use eminent domain were legal. That doesn’t make it right.
Eugene Debs made a killing in the stock market. Yet everyone considered him a principled socialist. All I’m saying is that on the statistliberty axis, Trump is a lot closer to liberty that any Democrat. Is he perfect? Of course not. But one of the reasons I left the Libertarian Party was because I found demands of purity to be utter crap.
Kevin M (8ae2cb) — 2/7/2020 @ 8:14 pmDon’t forget their “New Way Forward” act which is in the House with about 50 leftist cosponsors that completely decriminalizes all illegal immigration, requires American taxpayers to fund bringing previously deported illegal aliens back into the states and allows aliens to keep staying in the states even if they’ve been convicted of felonies.
NJRob (4d595c) — 2/7/2020 @ 8:24 pmMr. “I won,” “get to the back of the bus,” “they bring a knife, we bring a gun,” “the police acted stupidly,” “if I had a son he’d look like him,” “people who cling to their guns and religion,” and on and on was someone who espoused that he’d work with Republicans? In what world? Only with a press running full court interference for him is anyone able to claim that hateful, leftist bigot was someone open to negotiation.
NJRob (4d595c) — 2/7/2020 @ 9:03 pmyou should know, idiot.
mg (8cbc69) — 2/7/2020 @ 11:03 pmhttps://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/02/another-scandal-at-the-dnc.php
mg (8cbc69) — 2/7/2020 @ 11:30 pmCan we fast forward to Milwaukee?
114-99
mg (8cbc69) — 2/7/2020 @ 11:31 pmAnother great article by David French (h/t HotAir):
If the President Is Going to Be So Powerful, Can We Ask He Also Be Good?
Read the whole thing.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:11 amRemove DJT from this equation and Romney’s actions are 100% self serving. His action does not help the nation, Utah, Republicans,Democrats, or his family. It is Total stage performance for an audience of one, DJT. Romney, after watching DJT get stronger and more popular with every phony attack, again fails to understand reality. His vote will be relegated to a footnote at wiki
Iowantwo (8d44d6) — 2/8/2020 @ 5:21 ammr. mitt romney who is worth 50 mitch mcconnells did mr. president trump who is worth 50 cents a big favor
he put him in the record books
mr. president trump is only the third president to be impeached
he is only the third impeached president not to be removed by the senate
but he is the first impeached president to have a member of his own party vote to remove him in the senate
that makes mr. president trump a first in something
and that’s something
nk (1d9030) — 2/8/2020 @ 5:30 am118 I agree the federal government has too much power. Blame FDR and SCOTUS. But mostly Congress has delegated their responsibility’s to the President. All so congress never has to take a tough vote that might cost them an election. But Congress is just fine with the status quo. This problem predates our current President. The left is okay with that.
Iowantwo (8d44d6) — 2/8/2020 @ 5:30 amno, wait, mr. president trump who has sex with hookers has one more first
he is the first impeached president not to have anybody from the other party vote to acquit him in the senate
that’s somethinger
nk (1d9030) — 2/8/2020 @ 5:51 am@120, based on your position here it’s clear you’re fine with it also.
Time123 (7b45c6) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:01 amDave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:11 am
Translation: The problem isn’t the modern regulatory state or that congress has delegated its authority so it can focus on graft. The problem is the current guy exercising this executive power isn’t doing it right. Where have I heard this before? This is NeverTrump protecting the True Conservative Light through the dark times?
French just wants a different Pied Piper. He’s pathetic. He sounds like a Bernie Bro.
No, you can’t depend on having a “good” president. The founders knew that and it’s one of the reasons they didn’t implement a constitutional monarchy. They used to teach this stuff in high school civics.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:03 amTime123 (7b45c6) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:01 am
I have a problem with it. I also have a problem with people like French who are guilty of exactly what you’re accusing @120 of. One of the reasons Trump, or any president, is a threat to the system is people like French running interference for the left. As long as there are people trying to find “good” people to control the leviathan there will be corrupt people crawling over each other to get their hands on the levers.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:11 am“Principles”. You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means (in politics)
HT: Inigo Montoya
Horatio (d34efa) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:33 amFrosty, I can’t stress enough how much I agree with your comment in 123.
We disagree on how corrupt Trump is. I was hoping that this would be the event that drove an increase in oversight power and reduce s the power of the executive branch. But it’s not.
Time123 (7b45c6) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:09 amPrinciples in any human pursuit means exactly what it has always meant to a conservative.
Being unprincipled…especially to the point of mocking the very idea of having principles…is one of the terrible hallmarks of the T-rump decline.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:14 amI agree the Founders knew humans are flawed and their system is designed to try to protect us from that. But that doesn’t mean we should accept Presidents who think their flawed actions are perfect or celebrate character flaws like vengeance and bullying behavior.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:23 amAs long as there are people trying to find “good” people to control the leviathan there will be corrupt people crawling over each other to get their hands on the levers.
Enter Donny Trump, The Man From WrestleMania…..!!!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:26 amI wouldn’t work for Trump in any capacity, but I don’t believe Vindman would have had any choice in the matter as a military officer ordered to. For all we know, Trump did him a favor. I would certainly consider it one.
As for Sondland, he bought the job. He gave a lot of money to Trump’s campaign and was rewarded with a second-tier ambassadorship. He got what everybody else who ever did business with Trump got. From our perspective, I think: “He helped get Trump elected. F**k him!”
nk (1d9030) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:53 amAnd I’m mixing up the threads, but I blame Horatio.
nk (1d9030) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:54 amUh-huh…He’s a lot of things, but “principled” isn’t on the list.
Romney Principle #1 (essentially): “I can’t tell if he’s guilty or not without witnesses.”
Romney Principle #2 (A few days later, AFTER no witnesses): “Guilty!”
Say what you want about witnesses or not, but once you state your “principles”, you are no longer “principled” if you disavow the exact “principle” you stated a couple of days earlier. You’re an opportunist with ZERO principles…period.
MJN1957 (85ea38) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:14 amRepublican senators requested Hunter Biden’s records from Treasury. They’re investigating.
Biden is going down. I mean, Jo Biden’s already lost the Primary election, effectively. I mean his corruption is being exposed.
The whole point of Trump’s alleged impeachable offense was that he sicced a foreign country’s investigators on a political rival (who publicly bragged about using 1 billion dollars in aid money as a carrot to get them to fire a prosecutor investigating the obviously corrupt Hunter: kicked out of the military for drug use then getting a massive sinecure?). I would say that’s what made impeachment especially unwise, since it just underscored Jo Biden’s actual corruption, and Trump was, arguably for political reasons, trying to get lower-case justice on Biden.
There was no way that works out without the Dems being hurt for his revealed corruption.
What I really don’t understand is why you have some principled commenters on this blog calling for people to vote for Biden in the Primary to stop Trump.
Like what the heck? That’s principled HOW?
Aside from the fact that Biden won’t win the Primary and can’t stop Trump (you could vote for Buttigieg or Bloomberg if serious, or Bernie if you want to take the risk of a communist taking over), what the Hell kind of principles are those?
Trump may have wanted Biden’s corruption investigated by a foreign country for political reasons, or maybe just to get justice, but in any case, Biden bragged about his damn corruption on open camera.
Why would you support him now?
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:17 amAs long as there are people trying to find “good” people to control the leviathan there will be corrupt people crawling over each other to get their hands on the levers.
That actually makes no sense whatsoever.
There will always be corrupt people seeking power, regardless of any other variable.
The Founders certainly understood this trait of human nature very well, and they themselves believed in finding and supporting good people (which you sneer at).
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:22 am128. Your answer is federalism, and the constitution. There are scant few federal powers. Return to the states. What is theirs, strip the bureaucracy of power. But you deeply desire the federal govt controlling your life. Just one example, and their are hundreds. Education. Per the constitution, not a penny of federal monies can be spent on education. I’m very happy if that would be reality. Would you?
Iowantwo (8a7e00) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:27 amUh-huh…He’s a lot of things, but “principled” isn’t on the list.
Why don’t you faithfully quote him, instead of “essentially” distorting his position?
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:27 amAs much as I don’t like Romney and don’t agree with his vote, your interpretation isn’t the most charitable:
While I’m spinning fantasy here as I’m sure Romney just voted out of spite and gaining temporary darling status in the media/among Dems/with Patterico, you could just as easily say he was convinced of Trump’s guilt by this point, but wanted to hear from witnesses out of an abundance of caution in case he’d got it wrong and something they said would exonerrate Trump.
And if that spin doesn’t work for you, there’s also the fact that each Senator decides their own standard to vote guilty or innocent in an impeachment vote, so far as I’m aware; it isn’t guilt beyond a reasonable doubt as in a criminal trial. So, Romney could have been leaning toward voting guilty and wanted witnesses to be extra sure.
OR Romney may have wanted witnesses to decide his vote on the Contempt of Congress charge, and because he didn’t see more testimony about that, voted not guilty.
Anything’s possible.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:28 amP.S. To those who say no President was ever impeached for anything other than an actual criminal offense at the time of impeachment, they’re wrong. The 10th, if memory serves correct, impeachment charge against Andrew Jackson’s long list was Disrespecting Congress.
He was acquitted, as you know, and that charge was of course absurd.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:32 am@133 your summary of what Biden did is wrong.
Time123 (d54166) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:55 amThen vote for Biden in the Primary, man. He’s going to lose and if he did win the Primary, Trump would club him up and down the field. Buttigieg or Bloomberg are stiffer competition.
If the Democrat Party wasn’t cheating, which they are, there’s a good chance Bernie would win the nomination.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 9:12 am“But one of the reasons I left the Libertarian Party was because I found demands of purity to be utter crap.”
– Kevin M
Clearly, you have transitioned to being a partisan Republican. More power to you, literally. Hope it was worth it.
Leviticus (13d2ee) — 2/8/2020 @ 9:36 amRagspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:22 am
I refer you to
Iowantwo (8a7e00) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:27 am
You don’t seem like a serious person but I’ll try to carry it forward a bit. The leviathan is a reference to Leviathan or The Matter, Forme and Power of a Common-Wealth Ecclesiasticall and Civil by Hobbes. It argued that the flawed nature of man required a single unified state, in his time an absolute monarchy although today this would take a marxist form. The fundamental flaw in this plan is that all humans are flawed, something the theory presupposes, so there is no one who wouldn’t abuse this power, something the theory doesn’t resolve.
The founders, and everyone since with any sort of understanding and desire for liberty, were aware of this philosophy. They rejected it and embraced Locke instead. They decided to deal with potential abuse by distributing power into smaller pieces and allowing competing interests to counterbalance each other.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 9:50 am…AND seek good people for office and hold them to account.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 9:56 amTime123 (7b45c6) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:09 am
I’m not sure that’s what we disagree on. I think we disagree on how corrupt the other options are.
I keep hoping but I didn’t expect that from this. So far his opponents don’t want to clean things up.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:00 am@143 There are no “good” people in the sense that you mean and if there were how would the not “good” people recognize them.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:05 amI literally saw people here advocating for voting for Biden in the Primary.
What. The. Heck?
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:24 amBeing as how you, Frosty, are such a not-serious person as to write some of the nonsense you have, I’ll leave it to you to try to figure out how one may discern a good (not “perfect”) person from a not-good person.
It’s kind of like how intelligent people can denominate a liar from the rest of humanity when we know that all humans have lied.
Puzzle it out. The exercise will do you good…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:27 amJackson was censured, not impeached.
Paul Montagu (ae8832) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:33 amImpeachment isn’t the only way to encourage accountability. Elections are, too. Re-electing Trump tells him that everything he has done has been perfect.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:40 amAh. Well, memory’s a bear.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:44 amBut accountability isn’t popular now, is it? We let convicted criminals out early, pardon drug “entrepreneurs” because it feels good and helps us look nice, impose weeks or months in jail (instead of years) for college entrance fraud, etc., etc. Why should Trump care about rules? Apparently rules aren’t for Republicans or Democrats.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:46 amSo does not re-electing him. Trust me, he’s going to choose to view it that way regardless. So, do what’s best for the country and elect a Republican, not a borderline commie.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:46 amWhy is it best for America? Maybe divided government is best for America.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:49 amThey have the House.
Look, vote Democrat. This is basically a Democrat blog at this point, so why not?
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:50 amWar criminals too!
(Very popular with the ba$e, you know)
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:50 amTrump empowered to act like he is even more of a monarch, where no rules can stop him … how is that best for America?
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:51 amThis is not Democratic blog.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:51 amI mean, you could support a Democrat in the Primary for whom here is not overwhelming evidence of corruption and who are not all-but-declared communists if you’re going to do it: Buttigieg and Bloomberg both have a shot at unseating Trump.
Your support of Biden is utterly mysterious to me, espcially when you talk about principles or something.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:52 am*there
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:53 amWe know even one dissenting view drives Trump to anger and retaliation (Vindman). Apparently the same is true for Trump supporters when it comes to blogs.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:54 amI don’t think it was a mere “dissenting view” that was the issue. Talk about a minimalizing characterization!
Wow.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:55 amI would be glad to discuss the pros and cons of supporting Biden in the general election, although I have not made that decision. I would certainly like to see Biden as the nominee instead of the other candidates, who IMO are more extreme. Are you interested in that discussion?
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:57 amDid Trump show Vindmann endangered national security or disclosed classified information? What exactly did Vindmann do except testify/criticize how Trump handled the Ukraine call?
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:59 amI agree with you about Biden being less extreme than most Dem candidates (not Bloomberg).
My problem is his odious corruption.
However, he’s a perpetual loser candidate (gaffe prone is putting it mildly) (children love to stroke his legs? WTF? This is the story as he chose to tell it?? Mr. Hair Sniffer?) so it doesn’t really matter.
Biden won’t win.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:00 amTrump was sending a message with his actions that disloyalty to him will not be tolerated.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:00 amI couldn’t have put it better myself.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:03 amBloomberg is a far more liberal gun -grabber. It will be easier for the GOP to monitor corruption than stop Bloomberg’s curtailmenr of our Second Amendment rights. Thanks to Obama and Trump, his executive powers will be broad, but the GOP is far more likely to fight that if a Democrat is President than if Trump is.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:03 amMaybe I understand Trump better than you think. Maybe giving him more power isn’t good for America.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:04 amSo your problem is Trump’s corruption and you see the solution as Biden’s corruption, which you feel will be easier to manage?
This is your compelling message people are supposed to get excited by? This is your plan to beat Donald Trump?
It’s going to fail. It will never get off the ground!
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:06 amI want to note that kaf took time to say that I was “sloppy” at #101, but he is apparently unable to engage in a thoughtful discussion about the post, and make a prinicpled stand himself.
Dana (aaddb1) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:10 amThere you go again.
Basically nobody posting here supports Democrat policies. Among the few who do, like aphrael, they are open about it, and we have civil discussions about our differences.
I was a Republican for 40 years, until June 7, 2016. I worked the phones for Jerry Ford when I was 13. I interned at the local GOP headquarters when I was in high school. I campaigned for Reagan and Bushes I & II. I donated to Cruz right up until the moment he threw in the towel.
A rational person might worry that their guy has succeeded in alienating people like me (and Patrick for that matter, who I can’t speak for, but from what he’s said seems to have followed a similar trajectory out of the GOP). Last time, Trump only won because he was running against the *second* most-reviled politician in America, and managed to draw to an inside straight in the electoral college.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:11 amNo, that is not my position. Trump is more than corrupt, he also has no understanding of Constitutional limits. But even if that were true, the GOP would stand up to a Democratic President. It will not stand up to Trump. Do you acknowledge that as a possibility?
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:12 am@ Make America Ordered Against:
Logically, one would assume you would agree that this is also your problem with Trump, unless of course it’s the R or D after one’s name that determines the acceptability of a president’s (or possible president’s) corruption is acceptable.
Dana (aaddb1) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:13 am126 Time123 (7b45c6) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:09 am
I was hoping that this would be the event that drove an increase in oversight power and reduce s the power of the executive branch. But it’s not.
We get accountability through a diligent population, press, and FOIA. Unfortunately, our population prefers to have their ears tickled and easily sell their birthright for a mess of pottage (free government cheese), the press has decided to abdicate their responsibilities and pick winners and losers, so now it is up to the few of us and our legal rights to shine the light to keep things on the straight and narrow.
Trumps actions were not enough to oust him, but the process does help reign him in. I am sure he will be more careful next time. The fact that the press is not on his side means he will be constrained. As he should be. Which is why I would prefer Trump stay and be watched, then to let Dems have free reign.
We can’t rely on political parties to control abuses. Some times they are in bed with each other and sometimes they are just playing mischief.
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:14 amIt was hypebole.
That said, I’m now debating with someone who wants to support Biden for the Presidency, after acknowledging his corruption, with the plan of it being [hopefully] easier to manage.
So my hyperbole wasn’t that far off.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:15 amI guess Biden doesn’t leave women at the bottom of ponds. So there’s that.
I just have no idea how you plan on successfully selling him to the American people. “He’s also corrupt, sure, but easier to manage,” doesn’t exactly get my juices flowing.
I’d work on messaging, and then realize Biden will screw up messaging.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:20 am149 DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:40 am
Re-electing Trump tells him that everything he has done has been perfect.
I keep seeing this same fallacy over and over. The choice is not Trump vs some ideal candidate. RE-electing Trump does NOT send a message that he is perfect, it only sends the message that he is better than the alternative. That is ALL we can conclude from a binary choice of imperfect options.
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:21 amI see no evidence of this.
I told you I am not there yet, and I understood we agreed that Biden was the least offensive Democratic candidate. We are discussing the pros and cons, but your disdain toward me is eviddnt and leads me to release you from this onerous duty.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:21 am“Bloomberg is a far more liberal gun -grabber. It will be easier for the GOP to monitor corruption than stop Bloomberg’s curtailmenr of our Second Amendment rights.”
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:03 am
That’s an easier sentence to write if Merrick Garland and Lawrence Tribe are on the bench instead of Gorsuch and Kavanaugh, don’t you think?
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:21 am156 DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:51 am
Trump empowered to act like he is even more of a monarch, where no rules can stop him
not at all true. He won the “trial” but he was not granted free reign. The message is that there are limits. In this case it was political, but he is not stupid enough (yes I said that. Trump is NOT stupid, he ain’t mensa either, but there is plenty of room in between) to think there are no limits.
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:27 am165 DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:00 am
Trump was sending a message with his actions that disloyalty to him will not be tolerated.
If I were in charge of anything at all and had an underling go behind my back as a way to oust me, I’d fire him too. I don’t know anyone who would want a disloyal underling. EVER.
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:31 amNo, I said he is odiously corrupt. I find him an extremely offensive candidate, not just because of financial corruption, his bragging about using political power to get a prosecutor fired (which should offend you on this blog of all places), but because of repeated his creepy behavior toward young female children, which again he feels entirely OK with being open about (like his corruption). He’s a man who truly has no shame in, I think, a clinical way.
We agreed he’s not as (essentially) proto-communist as, say, Bernie and most of the others.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:32 am@182, you seem to have an extremely superficial understanding of what’s happened in Ukraine.
Time123 (d54166) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:35 amI mean no kidding.
And this isn’t “The Night of the Long Knives”: Vindman is still in the army and is being moved to another post.
If Trump had been convicted, Trump had left him in place so Vindman, not Trump, could have carried on his work at the White House until such time as the new President could make a decision about him, which may have been supportive of Vindman for all I know.
Trump was acquitted so it’s Lt. Col. Vindman who’s got to go. This is pretty basic.
The elected Commander-in-Chief, not the good Lt. Col., sets national security policy.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:36 amRagspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 10:27 am
Your proposition is flawed.
As you say all humans have lied and therefore all humans are liars. But calling someone a liar is based on an external pattern of past behavior. You only need one instance of a lie to call someone a liar. The difference between a true statement and a false one is objective and, absent an honest mistake, is easy to identify.
Being a good person doesn’t work like that. A person’s definition of good is based on subjective judgment and reasonable people can have different definitions. It’s largely a judgment of a person’s internal intentions. It’s not enough to point at examples of past good behavior and decide the person is “good”. Then there’s the very real issue of the corrupting influence of power itself. That all people are selfish and act out of self-interest is also a given. So, relying on past behavior to determine whether a person is good and therefore should be given vast power is flawed. This doesn’t even touch on the unforeseeable consequences of an action and the question of whether it’s even possible to determine if a given act is “good”.
You know these are basic philosophical questions and have been a common criticism of marxism and other systems of central planning, right? It sounds like you’ve been short-changed by more than just your civics teacher.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:37 amAngelo (de276e) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:42 am
Hmm, I linked an article about Bloomberg ^^^., didn’t post.
It was in “The Nation” Dec 9, 2019 concerning his authoritarian politics
Angelo (de276e) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:45 amAngelo, the spam filter is set at a high level; I haven’t been able to post any links whatsoever. However, I think your comment came out as blank because you had an open html tag.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:47 amYou might need to say where the article is, as you did, and also the title of the article so people can Google it.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:48 amI’m no longer convinced that Biden is capable of winning the general election.
Do you think Bloomberg is any more of a liberal gun-grabber than Obama? If there were a way to grab guns by executive order, it seems like Obama would have done it already.
Part of the reason (I think?) is that Congress has not signed away their legislative powers by giving the president effectively unlimited discretion over guns, as they have in many other areas.
Also, as an individual right (as opposed to an esoteric institutional struggle between branches of government), it’s much easier to defend 2nd amendment rights in the courts as there are no complications in regard to standing.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:49 amThat’s why the guy who writes this non-Democrat blog, who hates most of the policies the Democrat party espouses, is likely to vote for Democrats this election. To send a message. In the future I’ll likely sit elections out. But this time I feel a moral responsibility to try to help slaughter and bury the GOP. Electorally.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:49 amTrumps actions were not enough to oust him, but the process does help reign him in. I am sure he will be more careful next time.
T-rump’s actions were quite enough to oust him.
As to your second assertion, it would depend on what you mean by “careful”. He could well be more covert in his abuse of power. But I see no support for any assertion that he will not abuse power.
It is his way.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:51 am171 Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:11 am
I was a Republican for 40 years, until June 7, 2016.
Why would you abandon the GOP for the actions of the people of America? As far as I know Trump was not the guy the party promoted, nor wanted. It is not like The Dems who use underhanded means and super delegates to get their “man” on the ballot. Trump was a populist choice so your beef is with the people. The GOP gave him tepid support at the start, but when his policies aligned with theirs it was easier to jump on the bandwagon.
Still I don’t see how working against Trump and thus giving aid and comfort to the Dems will help either in the short run or long run.
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:52 amUnderscoring what I just said, this is the same guy who plagiarized Labour Leader Neil Kinnock’s speeches in his campaign, without the slightest bit of worry that this would be exposed and cause a problem. I don’t think he’s right in the head.
I strongly advise you to reconsider which Democrat you would support to oppose Trump, not just for likelihood to succeed—also for the danger he would pose as President.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:52 amTime, that is an extremely generous interpretation. He doesn’t misunderstand, he knows full well that he’s lying. Trumpsters, their brand is dishonesty.
Colonel Klink (Ret) (5cde89) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:52 amIt’s not so much that Biden put huge financial pressure on a country at war to get a prosecutor fired who was investigating a company his son was profitting off of. That corruption to protect and/or to financially benefit a corrupt family member is very wrong, yet at least is understandable as to his motivation.
It’s Biden insanely bragging about it in public.
The man is not right.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:00 pmIt sounds like you’ve been short-changed by more than just your civics teacher.
It sounds like you’ve lost the ability to think, and to know good from evil, a liar from an honest person.
That’s too bad.
You also don’t understand basic critiques of central planning (of which your little orange god is a big fan).
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:00 pm192 Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:51 am
As to your second assertion, it would depend on what you mean by “careful”. He could well be more covert in his abuse of power. But I see no support for any assertion that he will not abuse power.
1. Trump is not a subtle man.
2. He has the press, the Dems and the Deep State watching him
Who would be watching a Dem President?
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:10 pmNo sensible person takes seriously a Trump fan who pretends to be offended by corruption.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:10 pmFakeNews.
Paul Montagu (ae8832) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:10 pmThere’s no evidence that Shokin was investigating Burisma or Zlochevsky when he was sacked, so there’s no evidence that Biden acted corruptly when he threatened withholding loan guarantees until the guy was removed.
191 Patterico (115b1f) — 2/8/2020 @ 11:49 am
…is likely to vote for Democrats this election. To send a message. In the future I’ll likely sit elections out. But this time I feel a moral responsibility to try to help slaughter and bury the GOP. Electorally.
According to another blogger that message will be Democrats are perfect and can do no wrong. Burning down the house to save it is not going to save it. Trump is temporary, your solution would be more permanent. Trump is a response to the failures of the GOP and the excesses of the Press and Democrats. How is giving them BACK their power going to help your cause? Your purity play is going to harm more people and help nothing. The GOP establishment won’t hear your message, and the people won’t care.
Wa St Blogger (5fcf49) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:16 pmWho would be watching a Dem President?
Who was watching Clinton and Obama?
Remember when character (i.e. principles) mattered and we all said that character was destiny.
I still hold those as true.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:16 pmBiden is a bit loopy, and plenty dim, but c’mon. He repeated (practically verbatim) what he thought was an effective political argument that (to some degree) applied to his circumstances. It certainly shows lack of originality and creativity. It would have been appropriate to cite Kinnock as the original source. It’s fair to say it doesn’t reflect well on him. I wouldn’t say that – by itself – it disqualifies him, even under the pre-Trump standards when getting caught in acts of dishonesty was a political liability.
Trump, meanwhile, repeats the same obviously false stories at nearly every rally.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:18 pmPaul, I get the sense he doesn’t care about lying. 😂
Time123 (d54166) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:21 pmNothing is an admission of failure quite like a Trump critic resorting to elections.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:25 pmWhat? Lay people emotional when talking to the President about something doesn’t happen? Strong men crying is obviously fake?
I’m glad you’ve never cried, man… or sad that you’re weak—whichever the case may be.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:28 pmAnd that isn’t even meant as a personal slight. I’m not calling you weak.
It’s just such a bizarre thing to call an obvious lie.
Well, maybe you think this makes me weak or something, but I have in fact cried in my life, both tears of sadness and also of happiness.
Maybe you’re different.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:30 pm…and here is where I think why Trump is useful.
When was there a time where the power of the Presidency is being questioned in a bipartisan manner? Maybe the Trump era would be the trigger that starts this conversation and encourage Congress to claw back some of it’s delegated powers.
whembly (c30c83) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:37 pmSo, whee have you been since august 2016? I don’t remember seeing you here attacking the Never trumpers for “splitting the party”? And Demanding purity.
Look, you can minimize Romney all you want. He got elected as an R, and he got Trump’s endorsement in 2012 and 2018. He didn’t repudiate it. Out of 190 R House members and 53 R Senators, every single one voted for either acquittal or against impeachment. EXCEPT Romney. He voted to remove an R President 10 months before an election. It IS a big deal. We’ve only had 3 impeachments in the history of the USA. Romney is an egomaniac and he’s out of control. He feels zero loyalty to Trump or the R Party and has said as much. Accordingly, he should NOT be supported for re-election.
The fact that Mittens votes “80%” of the time with Trump is irrelevant when we can elect a R from Utah that will vote 95% of the time with Trump.
rcocean (1a839e) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:41 pmYou can also add in that we’d still be having an impeachment trial if Romney had his way. He voted for more witnesses again and again. This despite the fact, that he’d already made up his mind to convict after the Trump team made their case. Romney just wants to damage Trump and win points from the WaPo/NYt. Spare me the, we “can’t have purity tests”. Good lord, where have you been for the last 3.5 years. Romney himself had a purity test in 2016, and refused to vote for Trump.
rcocean (1a839e) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:44 pmThere are no purity tests with Trump, just loyalty tests.
Paul Montagu (ae8832) — 2/8/2020 @ 12:55 pmWhen was there a time where the power of the Presidency is being questioned in a bipartisan manner?
Other than Lindsay Graham complaining when he thinks Trump is not aggressive enough in military adventures and Rand Paul complaining when he thinks Trump is too aggressive in military adventures, who in the GOP is questioning the powers of the Presidency?
Kishnevi (dbdcc5) — 2/8/2020 @ 1:11 pmThe GOP should have never allowed him to run as a Republican. He’s a disgrace to the party of Lincoln and Reagan. And now a disgrace to the United States of America.
Political parties are fluid coalitions in which various interests gain or lose influence. Trump’s ascendency made it clear that the GOP would be under the thumb of a wicked, evil man for the foreseeable future. I have no wish to be a member of a once-noble organization led by a grotesquely incompetent, ignorant, immoral, traitorous and insane sociopath.
Most of my worst fears, and plenty more that I could have never imagined, have come to pass. For instance, while I thought a few of the more hard-line congressmen and senators would embrace Trump, I thought most of the legislators would keep their distance to avoid being tainted by his sleaze. Boy, was I wrong there!
You may be right; it might already be too late to save ourselves.
But with the possible exception of Sanders, I don’t think any of the present Democratic candidates could do more damage to the country than Trump will. And I say this despite opposing essentially all of their core policy positions, and despite recognizing that Democrat politicians have (mostly unwittingly, at least since the 20th century) done great harm to America in the past.
Institutions are more important than judges, or any other “deliverable” political outcome, because the institutions are what permit us to live together in peace and safety and prosperity as a great nation. Institutions are what make positive outcomes possible in the first place. Institutions are what separate us from sh*thole
countriesgovernments like Russia, or Iran, or North Korea, or Afghanistan, where might makes right.And Trump, with the encouragement of his cult and the spineless complicity of about 95% of the GOP, is the first Republican president ever to wage a scorched-earth campaign on America’s vital institutions.
Which is exactly why Putin went to great lengths to help put him where he is.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 1:13 pmDid you even watch the whole clip?
“And it happens every time…”
He tells the identical story at dozens of rallies; except (depending on the audience) one time it’s steelworkers, the next time it’s miners. Sometimes it’s eight, sometimes it’s nine, and sometimes it’s eight OR nine.
And it always “just happened backstage tonight”.
Bovine fecal matter.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 1:24 pmAdults will get emotional when meeting a person they idolize, so I am sure people gave cried on meeting him.
That Trump is their idol says a lot about these people.
Kishnevi (dbdcc5) — 2/8/2020 @ 1:29 pmDave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 1:13 pm
Allowed? You mean they should have treated him like Bernie? Or used some sort of backdoor deal to lock him out? If he followed the rules he gets to play the game. If you don’t like the rules change them. Having two parties gaming the system is sure to make things worse.
That doesn’t leave you a lot of parties to chose from. But seriously, don’t remain a member, leave. I’ve never understood this issue of being part of the party. I don’t agree with people complaining about Romney not being loyal to the party either. You vote to further your interests, whatever those may be. The people elected are there to represent you. Being part of the party is based on shared interests. Elected officials being part of the party should be for the same purpose, to determine seniority, to coordinate committee positions, etc. This dogma and loyalty stuff is pure propaganda and tribalism.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 1:35 pmEither/or. Maybe a invoked (or created) some kind of values/morality clause.
They should have done whatever it took.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:03 pmI sure as Hell wouldn’t mind if Congress clawed back the power of the President to bomb countries hither and thither, barring an immediate threat to the Homeland or deployed forces abroad. Not some vague national security justification.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:22 pmThat’s up to the voters.
And if you impose one, how the Hell does DRJ’s preferred candidate, Biden, survive? She’s already acknowledged he’s corrupt.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:51 pmThe establishment wanted Trump instead of Cruz because they knew Cruz might actually change things, unlike Trump who could be manipulated as long as he and his family profited.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:51 pmYou are not an honest commenter, 219.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:52 pmWhat are you talking about? The establishment didn’t want Trump. This is poppycock. They were shocked when he won the Primary.
Cruz is fine, but your claim is nonsense.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:53 pmYou’re projecting, DRJ.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:53 pmAren’t you cfbleachers?
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:54 pmMost GOP establishment politicians picked Trump because he was and is more ideologically flexible when it comes to conservatism. Cruz was seen as a real conservative.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:59 pmNo, although I am curious what the hell cfbleachers are.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 2:59 pmThey also hated Cruz on a personal level, kind of like Trump supporters seem to hate this blog and people here.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:00 pmThe establishment wanted Trump instead of Cruz because they knew Cruz might actually change things, unlike Trump
Cue Johnny MAC
https://youtu.be/t0hK1wyrrAU
PTw (6ee685) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:06 pmWow. You are projecting.
We view you more as Prodigal Sons whom we would like to see return to the fold.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:07 pmSorry. He was a nice guy who used to comment here and some of your writings reminded me of him, although there are differences. He cared about character. My mistake.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:09 pmSo you’re accusing me/us of hatred, while calling me/us a liar repeatedly, saying I/we don’t care about character, etc. Nice!
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:10 pmI literally accepted that you feel it’s right to support a Democrat in the Primary to defeat Trump for urgent ethical and Constitutional/national survival reasons, and urged you to therefore support a Democrat candidate with both a better chance of winning and a less corrupt character than Biden, and then go on to explain why I have problems with Biden’s character/personality disorder and think he’s not just unlikely to win, but would be dangerous if he won.
So, from that you conclude I’m dishonest and don’t care about Biden.
You’re entitled to see things as you want; however, once again, you are mistaken.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:13 pmDRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:00 pm
I liked Cruz, I picked him in the primary, and he did well in my state but he didn’t clear it. Most people I spoke to didn’t like him on a personal level but it had more to do with his southern preacher speech pattern he would fall into. He also came across as lecturing or something that I didn’t really see but it was a common complaint. I’d also agree the GOPe didn’t like him. I don’t think the GOPe like Trump either though.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:14 pm*don’t care about
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:14 pmBidenAlthough that may have been Freudian, because I don’t really care
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:15 pmaboutYou unfairly characterized my position which is dishonest, and you seemed to agree that Trump was getting even with Vindman (albeit you feel he had good reason). Is that caring about character? It strikes me as retaliation. As for hatred, you did not disagree when I said you held me in disdain. Is that how you feel about Prodigal Sons?
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:16 pmCruz has done a great job in various positions he has held including his current one post election of President Trump. That’s to his credit and he probably would have been a fine President.
However, as you point out, he didn’t win the nomination and that’s how the cookie crumbles. He hasn’t whined about it since then: he’s stepped up once again and did his job, well.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:17 pmHow so? On another threat, you said Biden’s corruption would be easier to contain than Trump’s and are strongly implied you are leaning toward supporting him in the Primary. I suggest, if you must support a Democrat to defeat Trump in the Primary, why not choose one with both a better chance of winning and less clear-cut personal corruption?
If I mistook what you said, it was not on purpose. Would you like to correct me about your position?
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:19 pm*thread
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:19 pmOk, I accept that and appreciate your response. Who is better than Biden? He strikes me as weak and easy to marginalize, which I find desirable but it does make it harder for him to win. I don’t care for Bloomberg because I think he will be the effective businessman Trump pretends to be. Klobuchar is smart and less extreme (for a Democrat) but I think she would actually be an effective leader, which isn’t good to me as a conservative. Warren and Sanders are out for me, which is why Trump wants them so badly. And I am uninterested in the Mayoral cult of personality that I consider Obama 2.0.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:21 pmWhat I am talking about is no different than when Republicans considered voting for Hillary in the DNC primaries to stop Obama, or vice versa. Remember that? Republicans thought that was great.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:24 pmAnd Trump is doing all he can to influence the Democratic race and undermine Biden because he thinks Biden is hardest to beat. All I am doing is agreeing with him.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:26 pmWell, yeah.
I just don’t find this desirable in a President. At least Bloomberg has leadership experience and enough wealth to, like Trump and unlike Biden’s clear ways, not to need to use the Presidency to make every thin dime for him and his family. Buttigieg doesn’t, but comes across well in the grand scheme of things without putting his foot in his mouth every five seconds.
I admit the Dem bench is a pathetic one; I just think Biden is near the worst of the worst with a very suspect character and personality.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:27 pmMaybe Trump supporters should consider voting for Bernie in the Democratic primaries in their States. Help your guy out!
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:28 pmThe rules of the Republican (and Democratic) Party are up to the Republican (and Democratic) Party. Which voters they want to involve in making their rules, and how much, is entirely up to them. If they wished, they could simply appoint the nominee without allowing a single primary vote to be cast.
DRJ has made it clear to you that you’re misrepresenting her position on Biden, and I think you should stop. But in any case, Biden does not need to “survive” the RNC rules unless he runs for the Republican nomination.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:29 pmWell the Dem establishment thinks Buttigieg and Bloomberg are their best hopes now, which is why they’re pulling strings for them. I don’t see how, “weak and easy to marginalize” puts Joe in a strong position to win the Presidency and I’m not sure why you do.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:29 pmTrump is using the Presidency to enrich himself and his family. How is that different than Biden?
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:30 pmI think the Southern Democrats will find Biden more desirable than some of the others candidates, and he will do better there.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:32 pmI’ve asked DRJ to clarify, Dave, as that is my honest interpretation of what was said on another thread where, paraphrasing, I recall it being that Biden’s corruption would be easier to contain than Trump’s.
I’m suggesting that if someone must support a Dem to get rid of the danger they perceive in Trump, choosing a candidate who didn’t come in 4th in Iowa, who doesn’t put his foot in his mouth constantly, who isn’t as clearly corrupt, who isn’t “weak and easily marginalized,” etc., etc., might be an idea.
Your mileage may vary.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:33 pmYou understand that I am talking about primary voting, not the general election? I will cross the general election (BINARY CHOICE!!) bridge then.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:35 pmA weak, easily marginalized candidate/nominee may be a weaker President, but whatever Biden is I know the GOP will stand up to him more than they stand up to Trump. Trump doesn’t care about the Constitution but I do, so he worries me. Especially in a second term.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:38 pmBut we’ll see if I feel that way in November. I voted for Trump once. I may again.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:39 pmHis holdings have taken a big hit since he was elected, is my understanding. I can’t send a link here, but from an NBC piece:
Anyway, I have to get some things done now. It was good talking to you and maybe we’ll pick it up later.
P.S. One way it’s different is Trump offers his kids jobs in his businesses, etc. Biden worked after getting discharged from the military for drug use in an industry he has no knowledge of for a massive fee, then his dad bragged about using pull, etc., there. Gotta run.
P.P.S. Yes, I know we’re talking about the Primary. But if you want a weak and easily marginalized candidate, despite corruption issues, whose corruption you feel can be contained, to oppose Trump, because Trump is that bad, it follows that you must want him to win the General against Trump.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:40 pmI obviously think that would be the best choice under the circumstances; however, you’re entitled to your own opinion and vote, naturally.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:41 pmMaybe. Or maybe I don’t want Trump to get a socialist as an opponent. Make Trump win, don’t hand it to him.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:43 pmYeah, I get that. The Project Veritas videos showing several Bernie campaign workers, among them paid staffers, talking about putting Republicans in Gulags or worse for re-education, then not being fired by the Bernie campaign, is a little alarming, tbh.
You’ll note I didn’t recommend supporting Bernie, however much integrity to his whacky ideas he has.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:45 pmTrump profits from his Presidency, as are his children. He and Biden are similar in this regard.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:49 pmI suspect that Make America Ordure Again is our old “friend” Christoph. Does anybody else suspect that?
nk (1d9030) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:57 pmChristoph knows me better than MAOA seems to know me, but he does seem familiar. I guess it shouldn’t matter who he is or who anyone is, except we are a community here.
DRJ (15874d) — 2/8/2020 @ 4:11 pmHunter Biden was executive vice president of a bank holding company, a member and then vice-chair of the Board of Directors of Amtrak (appointed by Dubya, stepped down shortly after dad became VP), an investment banker and founded a venture capital firm before his ill-starred foray into the Navy Reserve.
It is common practice for members of the Board of Directors to have no direct experience in the business of the firm. There is an endless list of examples.
Nikki Haley is on the board of Boeing – what does she know about aerospace engineering? According to Wikipedia, “Boeing board members earn a minimum annual compensation of $315,000 as of 2017”. Oh, and: “Critics have alleged that the position at Boeing may have been offered to Haley due to favorable official actions she took with regard to Boeing while in office in South Carolina.”
*GASP*
Relax Nikki, I predict Donald Trump won’t be sending Rudy to South Carolina to investigate…
The CEO of Marriott is on the Board of Directors of Microsoft. How much computer code do you figure he’s written? According to MSFT’s filings, he receives a cool $325,000 for attending 5 board meetings a year. This Board of Director stuff seems like nice work if you can get it.
Marriott International’s Board, in turn, contains executives from PepsiCo, BET Networks, and CVS.
In any case, there’s no doubt that Biden’s name probably opened doors for him, but he had been working in a variety of high-level executive and investment-related jobs for decades, and his resume is not at all out of line other Board of Director appointments.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 4:36 pmand his resume is not at all out of line other Board of Director appointments
Aside from his drug and alcohol addiction problems and baby momma(s?). Ah, but you said “resume”. My bad.
PTw (6ee685) — 2/8/2020 @ 6:06 pmPretty sure the nasty remarks that are directed at Cruz come from those who are NeverTrump and claim Cruz sold out.
I’ve been consistent of my support for Cruz and hope he runs for the Presidency once again if he doesn’t accept a seat on the highest court.
NJRob (4d595c) — 2/8/2020 @ 7:57 pm@262 No, didn’t you hear. NeverTrump doesn’t do the loyalty/purity test/tribe thing.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:01 pmPretty sure the nasty remarks that are directed at Cruz come from those who are NeverTrump and claim Cruz sold out.
Pretty sure not. But then my memory goes back to pre-election days when Trump sucking brown-shirts were posting really amazingly nasty crap about Cruz, his wife, dad and dog.
That said, I am really disappointed in Ted, especially after this week.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:07 pmTrump fans openly bashing Ted Cruz’s wife, his dad (The real assassin or whatever) while insisting Ted isn’t eligible for the presidency because he’s cuban… yeah Trump fans were super nice to Cruz.
Amazing how telling the truth means literally nothing, absolutely not a damn thing, to Trump’s loyal fans. They are plain old comic book bad.
Dustin (b8d6d1) — 2/8/2020 @ 8:10 pmDustin, you are really tough beating up that straw man. Now how about instead of living in the past you focus on present day like I did. Give it a shot once in a while?
NJRob (4d595c) — 2/8/2020 @ 9:42 pm@263, Cruz has behaved terribly in this.
Time123 (ec8f20) — 2/9/2020 @ 4:39 amFrosty, you’ve read the info on Joe Biden and
Agreed previously that his actions in Ukraine were in
Support of US policy. Look at what Cruz has said publicly
and tell me if he’s being honest with the public on that subject.
Also, who made that claim about the nevertrumpers?
Time123 (ec8f20) — 2/9/2020 @ 4:40 am@268 Dave made the claim in, I think, in the open thread. He made a valid point that the context of the criticism matters. I agreed with his comment in theory but in practice it’s an issue of POV. I’m not sure the flip flops on Cruz by NeverTrumpers are very much different from what’s happened with Romney and proTrumpers. A person is good when they’re on your side and bad when they aren’t. NeverTrumpers play this game, and the accompanying rationalization game, just as much as the proTrumpers they’re always criticizing.
@267 I agreed that he could have dual motives and that it was entirely possible for him to be acting consistent with US policy to further his personal goals. Which is also what I think Trump was doing. Cruz may have been bad on this issue with Biden. But how many comments have you seen about all of the R’s being bad, but Romney, or I used to respect these R but not now. These R’s that are no longer part of the tribe are, for the most part, still the same R’s they’ve always been. They’re voting for the same things, supporting the same policies, etc. except they’ve sullied themselves with Trump. I’m not saying don’t criticize them, knock yourself out, they almost always deserve it. But usually the criticism isn’t detailed. It’s simply, this guy doesn’t reject Trump so he’s been turned and isn’t a Real Conservative.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/9/2020 @ 5:23 amNjrob, that’s a fascinating like comment. You coming that I’m loving in the past… Therefore you admit this is something that happened and you wish to be ignored. Then you say that’s a straw man. But it’s not a straw man if it’s true and something you want to forget. Then you say something really dumb about how tough I am relative to you I guess. I assure you that your internet nonsense is not impressive with respect to your manliness.
Have a great Sunday!
Dustin (44091a) — 2/9/2020 @ 5:50 am@267 Just to elaborate, I’m not a proponent of the theory that Joe had the prosecutor fired to protect Hunter. At least not the simplest version of that story I keep seeing. That doesn’t mean I think Joe is clean.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/9/2020 @ 6:52 amfrosty, who can’t do what normal people do in identifying liars from honest people, doesn’t have any better grasp of “tribes”.
To express disappointment with senators for whom we formerly expressed some degree of respect or even admiration has nothing to do with “tribalism” on either end…neither the respect end or the disappointment end.
Respect…or just liking…in most cases comes from a considered, rational observation of a person’s conduct, stated positions on issues, or thinking. There are reasons for it. Disappointment is also based on reason, and is often keenest toward those we respect.
Tribalism, conversely, is not concerned with the rational. It is often positively irrational. You’ll often see a terrible example of this at a T-rump mass rally, with good people totally suspending critical thought as they are swept up in the moment.
An affinity group is not “tribal” in this sense. Conservatives, for instance, demand critical thinking and have trained themselves never to suspend it for persons or causes. Kind of by nature, we resist being swept up in any moment, which is consonant with Buckley’s saying about standing athwart history and yelling stop!
It also means that the affinity group can be exclusive, however. I do not consider either Duh Donald or, say, Tucker Carlson anything but Progressives with some right tendencies. Both advocate or institute BIG GOVERNMENT, planned economics, as does Sen. Rubio of late. They are not what I would call “conservative”, but for totally rational reasons having nothing to do with tribalism.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 7:01 am“Tribalism” for a “nevertrumper” would be something like this:
If Romney voted for Medicare for All, or the Green New Deal, or was credibly accused of some ethical lapse, and we tried to silence criticism of him for that because “he’s our guy” or “he was with us on impeachment”.
On the other hand, offering a rational defense of a position he takes based on the merits of the position is not tribalism.
And the same goes for people who defend Trump on specific issues without going full butt-gerbil.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/9/2020 @ 7:16 amWell said, Rapspierre.
Knee jerk defense of your team, such as the GOP, democratic party, Trump, etc, that can be tribalism I guess. It definitely is bias.
But standing up for a principle and expressing disappointment or even dismay that someone who had spent years pretending to care about the rule of law, integrity in a president, corruption, then doing all they can to protect Trump’s bribery and obstruction crimes, is the very opposite. It’s rationalism.
Many Trump critics from the right can apply the same set of facts to a wide array of leaders, and arrive at the same conclusion. Lois Lerner or Donald Trump? Both corrupt. Ivanka or Chelsea or Hunter getting positions they shouldn’t, solely because of daddy? Pretty corrupt. Biden, Clinton, Trump, abusing power for sexual creepiness or even favors? Corrupt. That is simply the opposite of what Frosty claims.
But so many Trump supporters also makes it personal while posing as a neutral and objective observers. It’s that kind of thing that has come to typify Trump support lately. It’s not about reason. It’s about winning. This isn’t a discussion forum to these guys. This is a fight. They cannot admit they were wrong to support Trump, for example on his historic failure on immigration, making the issue toxic and unworkable for many years, or his extraordinary spending, or the foreign policy of Jimmy Carter mixed with moments of kinda bizarre missile strikes when the press calls for it.
Trump fans assert that only they get it, and everyone else is evil and unpatriotic for not supporting the dear leader.
Trump must not be re-elected. The more I think about it, the more I think even supporting Sanders or Warren would be less bad than supporting 4 more years of Trump, simply because of the way he has remolded the GOP and our justice system into something approaching fascist loyalty. It is very important that Trump be a defendant in a fair trial as soon as possible.
Dustin (5a4901) — 2/9/2020 @ 7:24 amRight, because ignoring his past helps you ignore the hypocrite that Cruz actually is. The only true thing about Cruz is his blind ambition.
Paul Montagu (ae8832) — 2/9/2020 @ 7:58 am@273 I don’t think we disagree in principle. It’s true that a person can defend Romeny on the merits. I’m skeptical of the idea that everyone now holding Romney out as the one true R of faith and asserting that criticizing Romeny is unmerited are doing that. The reflexive white knighting of Romney is just as much a team sport as the reflexive attacks on him.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:03 am“and we tried to silence criticism of him for that”
Dave (1bb933) — 2/9/2020 @ 7:16 am
Because ridiculous straw man arguments aren’t a hallmark of a tribalist mindset.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:07 amNo they actually aren’t, Munroe.
Not that the argument was ridiculous at all.
Dustin (5a4901) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:14 amExamples?
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:19 amThe reflexive white knighting of Romney is just as much a team sport as the reflexive attacks on him.
To the extent the first proposition existed, I’d agree. But saying Romney did a right thing and it took guts was not what you suggest.
You can read the threads and find ample reflexive, nasty and totally false attacks, PLUS examples of historical stuff that has no relevance to what he did in this time.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:27 amWhen Trump redirected Pentagon budget to fund his wall via his Emergency Powers, delegated by Congress.
My hope, is that Trump becomes a cautionary tale here and Congress starts to move in a direction to declaw the presidency.
whembly (c30c83) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:48 amRagspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 7:01 am
We should all count ourselves lucky to be in the company of someone with such unwavering confidence in their discernment.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:51 amThanks, frosty. Coming from you, that means a lot.
I’m having a moment…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:00 amHow is it reflexive if the discussion of Romney is well considered, and based on the fact that what he did was morally good? It’s probable not reflexive because we’ve been urging everyone to remove Trump long before Romney made his decision.
It’s a provably dishonest claim.
Dustin (5a4901) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:11 amYou attacked something I didn’t say instead of responding to what I did say. It was a standard dishonest characterization because you knew you couldn’t argue against my remarks. Typical internet tough guy response.
NJRob (4d595c) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:44 amThere you go again Paulie.
NJRob (4d595c) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:46 amDustin (5a4901) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:11 am
If someone told me Romney made the right call for objective reasons I might disagree with the reasons but I probably wouldn’t respond. Reasonable people can disagree and there’s really no reason to argue.
On the other hand, if someone tells me Romney is morally good because he did what God told him too I think to myself this person likes that Romney stood against Trump and reasoned backward to provide justification. When the media and people who have been critical of Romney in the past are now pushing the same talking point and saying the exact opposite of previous positions it’s even easier to be skeptical.
Just because you can rationalize your position after the fact, hide behind a fig leaf, mix both positions, or associate with other people who have valid reasons doesn’t mean a specific person didn’t make a reflexive position.
I’ll give you a less politically challenging example. A cop can have a gut feeling about something but not have actual probable cause, he can ignore standard 4th amendment protections and execute an unlawful search, and then find exactly the thing he expected (or even better evidence of some other crime). The search doesn’t then become lawful and the cop, in retrospect, didn’t have probable cause.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:59 amHad Romney voted to acquit and given Trump a tongue-bath, I would have expressed the same disappointment that I have expressed about, for example, Mike Lee (who did exactly that).
That’s not tribalism. It’s taking a position on principle and sticking to it.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:01 amI tire of this sort of attack on Trump supporters by people who are conservative, but fail to do anything concrete to support conservative results. Yes, some Trumpers are like some anti-Trumpers – too shrill and too closed minded. Welcome to humanity in the age of the Internet.
But many of us are rock solid conservatives who voted against him in the primaries, but cast a “Flight 93” vote against Hillary in the general. We hoped against hope that there would be good results, but we voted that way because we knew that modern Democrats, who would have been empowered by a Hillary administration, would rapidly work to finish Obama’s project to end the freedom to be a conservative, the freedom to be a Christian, and the freedom to be a gun owner – among many other horrors.
And guess what! We lucked out – Trump has done more in actually empowering conservatives and creating conservative policies than any President since Reagan, and is about to surpass Reagan (outside the foreign affairs sphere). When I see the raft of originalist judges appointed, I know that we were lucky just on that fact alone. When I see the muscular, no-apologies foreign policy, again, I’m happy. When I see genuine, effective efforts to uphold our sovereignty against an unchecked flow of foreigners, and against foreign institutions, again, I am happy. When I see regulations rolled back, the first of hopefully more departments moved into the heartland from DC, and the pushback against left-progressive craziness in our schools, again, I am satisfied. And, when Trump does something I don’t like, I weigh it against those great achievements, and move on.
He has also done things that were not conservative – some of his tariffs seems to have been just tariffs, but in his defense, by finally, finally, finally waging a cold war against China as they have been waging against us for decades, he is starting to reduce that most dangerous of geopolitical threats.
So I’d say – don’t take everything he says literally – he doesn’t, and I don’t. It is a trap that many fall into – Trump says something that’s just wrong, and everyone nit-picks it, while real policy keeps happening. Understand that he speaks for effect, and his methods have served him (and now us) well. Also realize that he is a master a trolling, and you may have been trolled by remarks intended to further unhinge the really dangerous opposition.
So, my analysis of vehement #NeverTrumpers is that they fall into one of three categories:
(1) People so emotional about Trump’s offensive personality that they can see no farther – and this includes failing to realize that what he says isn’t some legal utterance, fact checked and focus grouped – and take it as that.
(2) People so purist about their view of appropriate conservative policies that they’d prefer defeat to a partial success
(3) People who are just not paying attention to the facts, perhaps because they are no longer getting their information from conservative sources, just the more-biased-than-ever mainstream media.
I used to read this blog daily. I gave that up after the election, and I only dropped in today to see if it is still a “Trump isn’t perfect so I’ll oppose him” as it was before. Sadly, it is.
John Moore (8829b1) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:07 amAs far as I’m aware (please point to contrary evidence if it exists), Romney has never said that God told him to do anything, and nobody has said that doing what God told him makes him morally good. So I’m afraid you’re the one attacking strawmen here.
What he *did* say, is that he took an oath (before God) to do impartial justice. That oath was not imposed by any duty to God, but by the Constitution as US senator during impeachment. He said his faith required him to take that oath seriously (which is obviously why the Constitution requires it), and that in his own judgment (not God’s) impartial justice required voting to convict.
He could just as well have said all the same words, but in the end used them to justify a decision to acquit, but the difference would be that voting to acquit was the easier and less troublesome thing for him to do. Generally speaking, following your conscience when it happens to be the easiest or most convenient choice is not considered particularly admirable, but following your conscience when it’s the more difficult alternative and brings hardship on you is.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:22 amYou brought up his history when you expressed your “consistent support” for him. Maybe you would’ve noticed that had you taken your pom poms down.
Paul Montagu (ae8832) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:22 amAside from appointing judges, what conservative results?
Paul Montagu (ae8832) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:24 amClinton was a tired old hag, and a terrible politician. She would have been far less popular, and far less effective, than Obama (who himself accomplished nothing in the last six years of his presidency).
To claim Obama had projects “to end the freedom to be a conservative, the freedom to be a Christian, and the freedom to be a gun owner,” you have to either dishonest or delusional. He supported policies that you (and I) oppose, fine. Claiming he wanted to end the freedom to be a conservative, a Christian or a gun owner just makes you look unhinged.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:33 amAnd the only reason you, Dustin and others turned your back on him is because he decided to be an adult and work with the President to try and help Americans and turn back the assault on our liberties.
NJRob (4d595c) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:49 amI completely agree this. Thank you, for saying it.
I completely disagree with this. It makes one vigilant, because the facts support the position. Anyone who lives in Texas knows about the left’s war on Christmas, which is only one horror on the list.
felipe (023cc9) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:50 am“Trump isn’t perfect so I’ll oppose him”
I, for one, was fed up with that particular canard back before the election. It was just stupid then, untrue then, and lazy then.
Much more so now.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:00 am245. Dave (1bb933) — 2/8/2020 @ 3:29 pm
There is no national party, when it comes to being on the ballot for president. It is state parties that decide. There are financial and other ties between state parties and the national party, but we’re a long way from anyone creating a rule that allows the national committee to name a candidate. They did in 1972, to replace Thomas Eagleton as the vice presidential nominee with Sargent Shriver, but I think all 50 state parties had to separately ratify this officially.
If a convention broke up, the state Democratic party could put someone else’s name on the ballot.
This happened I think in some southern states in 1948 (Truman was not even on the ballot in Alabama and was on a separate “National Democratic” line in Mississippi) and even in 1960 in Mississippi. (Alabama had primary for Electors which was won by 5 Kennedy electors and 6 electors pledged to Senator Harry F. Byrd of Virginia (no relation to the West Virginia Byrd)
At that time the Democratic Party in both states was lily white, although I’m not sure about the way things were in 1960. I know there was a credentials challenge in 1964 from Mississippi by something called the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party.
https://snccdigital.org/events/mfdp-challenge-at-democratic-national-convention/
Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:01 amDave (1bb933) — 2/9/2020 @ 10:22 am
I might have been a little hyperbolic but you’re not in the best position to throw that stone.
You’re focusing on a very limited interpretation of “God told him”. I suspect that is because it is a common misrepresentation that people of faith literally believe God spoke to them when they use that term. Obviously, some people do mean that which gives more grist for the mill.
But more generally “God told him” isn’t functionality different from “his faith required him”. As I understand it Mormons believe the tenants of their faith are revealed to them by God via the Holy Spirit and He guides them in their faith. Much has been made about Romney being motivated by his faith, describing it as as
isn’t consistent with that. Using your formulation saying, “my faith requires” would be more correctly interpreted as “in my judgment, this is what God directs me to do”. That may be too direct but “in my judgment, this is what my faith requires” and “my faith is given to me by God” is just a longer way of saying it.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:18 amYou’re making the flawed assumption that I ever supported him in the first place. The question I have is why so many conservatives would stand behind so big a phony and liar such as Cruz. But I guess that is the state of my party.
Paul Montagu (6aafc0) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:31 amAnyone who lives in Texas knows about the left’s war on Christmas, which is only one horror on the list.
I live in Texas, but your allusion is far too limited. But it also falsifies your argument. What you note is a local problem afflicting states and communities, and has pretty much nothing to do with Baracula. As I recall, there were Christmas trees in the White House all along.
If you had cited to the awful effort to compel religious people to toe a line on birth control, for instance, that would be a better case. But even there, IIRC those efforts have been successfully opposed on the national level.
Likewise with gun control, where the people of Virginia have real concerns that we in Texas simply don’t.
While I could never consider voting for either terrible person our broken nominating system stuck us with in ’16, I had little fear that Hellary could do what Baracula had failed to do.
We have had to be vigilant for many decades, and even during Reagan’s wonderful time. He wasn’t perfect, either, and those who really supported him also warmly criticized and opposed him when he was wrong.
One problem I see for conservatives is that we tend to focus too much on national politics, which is understandable since so much power has been centralized. Our state and local politics need tending too.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:37 amThat may be too direct but “in my judgment, this is what my faith requires” and “my faith is given to me by God” is just a longer way of saying it.
Well, you tortured that set of falsehoods to death.
Go to what he actually said.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:48 amDave’s point about Hunter’s past experience is fair.
What Hunter was paid sounds out of line and Joe bragged about exercising obvious pull to protect him.
Make America Ordered Again (adac13) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:51 amMake America Ordered Again (adac13) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:51 am
No he didn’t.
He bragged about possibly singlehandedly) getting the prosecutor fired, but not that he did it to protect, or help his surviving son, nor does the general consensus seem to be that that prosecutor was doing anything, ad certainly not that he was an honest, determined prosecutor.
latter spin was, quite possibly, Russian propaganda.
Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:56 amWhen Trump redirected Pentagon budget to fund his wall via his Emergency Powers, delegated by Congress.
My hope, is that Trump becomes a cautionary tale here and Congress starts to move in a direction to declaw the presidency.
whembly (c30c83) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:48 am
I don’t remember any GOP criticism of that. But I accept the correction. Perhaps it got swallowed up in the criticism from the Democrats…
kishnevi (496414) — 2/9/2020 @ 12:15 pmI don’t remember any GOP criticism of that.
Much to GOPers shame. It’s another instance where Duh Donald simply lied to justify a power-grab.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 12:41 pmWhat did President Obama do to wage war on Christmas in Texas?
That’s what we were talking about: “Obama’s project to end the freedom to be a Christian”.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/9/2020 @ 3:03 pm@ Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 11:37 am
For you, perhaps. It sufficed for my requirements; it elicited a thoughtful response from you.
My argument was against “unhinged” not “Baracula.” You may have missed that. So the tradition of a Christmas tree at the WH continued under the Obama administration? And that satisfies you that Religious liberty is not in danger?. Allow me to remain skeptical and vigilant.
Thank you for arguing the other conservative points that I purposely omitted – it did not take much to lead you to their recognition and defense. It is to your credit.
I am an Independent, so I can empathize. I have no fear of HRC, especially since she failed to be elected POTUS. We are still contending with Obama’s successes such the ACA. His failures are in the past, to be remembered, and hopefully, not repeated.
And here our views converge.
In closing, please let me offer you this fatherly advice: If one wishes to persuade a reader of higher caliber than oneself, it helps to forgo such epithets as “Hellary,” and “Baracula.” Such devices belong to a meaner demographic.
felipe (023cc9) — 2/9/2020 @ 4:37 pmI have no doubt that that is what you wish to debate. However, my argument is against your characterization of “unhinged.”
felipe (023cc9) — 2/9/2020 @ 4:39 pmAw, c’mon felipe…!!!
I love word-play.
And I can be pretty mean!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/9/2020 @ 5:39 pmOr any character flaw at all.
Trump superfans: you don’t get to attack other people for character flaws of any kind, ever again, and be taken seriously. That’s the deal you made. Now you get to live with it.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:42 pmTotally! Except here, the team is “Team People Who Care About the Truth.”
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:47 pmDo me a favor and stay away for good. Bye now!
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:48 pm@311 The problem with something reflexive is it happens before any conscious thought, especially rational thought. Sure, you can come along later and rationalize it but it couldn’t have been based on something like truth.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:06 pm“Trump superfans: you don’t get to attack other people for character flaws of any kind, ever again, and be taken seriously. That’s the deal you made. Now you get to live with it.”
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/9/2020 @ 8:42 pm
I guess someone drew the “But Whaddabout Trump” card, to be played at any time.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/9/2020 @ 9:12 pmSure, you can come along later and rationalize it but it couldn’t have been based on something like truth.
Thar’s a particularly stupid and false observation. You get reports from your subconscious all the time, and you probably act on them, or you should. One way you act on those reports is to think about them and question them.
Case-in-point, years ago I’d read some stuff on Bill Clinton and his whole “new democrat” shtick. I was disposed to like him, based on that. Then I saw him on TV, and I immediately felt revulsion.
Now I am a VERY objective person, but I have a subjective side that I learned to respect, so in the case above I began looking into Clinton a lot harder. I found that that report from my subconscious about Clinton was dead-on.
This is why Sherlock would pick up his violin; he intentionally pushed his conscious brain back so he could get a report from his subconscious. A we often call this “inspiration” or “intuition”.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/10/2020 @ 5:35 amHad this old tab open when only about 25 comments had been made Munroe, I somehow missed your post at #20 with he link back to:
https://patterico.com/2015/01/15/no-to-mitt-romney/
I think everyone here would behoove themselves to go back an read that. Many of the same commenters there are here now (though not quite so many). It’s interesting, especially in regards to P, the perspectives and attitudes not just about Romney but especially comments such as:
You know what it takes to succeed in politics? It takes brass balls to succeed in politics.
Interesting.
PTw (894877) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:01 amSo, in 2015 Patterico didn’t think Romney would be a good nominee. Today he thinks Romeny made the correct vote in the senate. I don’t see any conflict between those two positions. Unless your view of politics is as some pointless team sport where it’s all about personality and tribal affiliation? But that would be a juvenile and stupid way to view the world.
Time123 (b0628d) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:21 amIf it’s about personality, Donna Dump loses hands down with me. The sight or sound of him makes me nauseous. And I’m a person who is not bothered by spiders or stinkbugs in the house, I just leave them alone the poor things.
nk (1d9030) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:28 am@315 At first I thought you might just be stupid or have some issue with reading comprehension. But now I think you’re able to have an honest conversation, you just choose not too.
They point isn’t whether you’re right or wrong after you had time to rationalize your decision. The initial reflexive decision is not rational. That’s literally the definition of reflexive. If then, after you’ve made your reflexive decision you check in with your tribe and they all made the same decision then it’s still not a decision you made based on the truth of the matter.
If you want to assert that you made a reflexive decision and then via your own process validated it then you can argue you’re not tribal. But I’m not talking about that.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:33 amSure, you can come along later and rationalize it but it couldn’t have been based on something like truth.
That’s what you said.
I just pointed out that statement is false.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:45 amLong before Aristotle, humans saw a deer and reflexively said “Good to eat”. They saw a sabertooth and reflexively said “Run!”. They saw a woman and reflexively said “Wowsers!” So reflexes are good. They’re what has kept us around for a 100,000 years or so. Trust them! You son’t need to rationalize them.
nk (1d9030) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:50 amThe presidency is a strange little position. A branch of government, and the one that can do the most immediate wrong, is vested in one person. That person better have a clear vision, love our country, and able to withstand pressure.
It’s also hard for me to support a presidential candidate without success as an executive leader and ideally some kind of exposure to the military at the ground level.
Romney didn’t make the cut because his governorship wasn’t that effective and he seemed to avoid service. Of course Trump shares those weaknesses with his bankruptcies and bone spurs.
I’m not sure why this is relevant to Romney coming around to a position many here advocated. It’s not like we agree with him. he agrees with us. And indeed the reason the rest of the GOP (I mean the whole damn Senate) didn’t vote like romney is simply a lack of courage. I reject that a single vote to acquit was in good faith.
Dustin (689188) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:54 am@315 Your Sherlock analogy actually leans in my direction. It only seems to support yours because you’ve swapped reflexive with subconscious. Again intentionally being dishonest.
The description of his process was not reflexive. He didn’t work backwards from an initial gut response. He intentionally did the opposite. He gathered information through a personal process of his own and then processed it to reach a conclusion. It isn’t clear in the stories what exactly this process was because it was a plot device. Since he was a fictional character it’s possible to ascribe superhuman powers of conscious deductive skills. He’s part of the basis for Batman and that is how it’s explained there. Outside of that Sherlock was the opposite of tribal in every way.
Are you really basing an argument on the superpowers of a fictional character?
frosty (f27e97) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:54 amYes. A link back to a post with ~250 comments, with numerous people expressing very firm opinions on matters Mittens. But “in 2015 Patterico didn’t think Romney would be a good nominee. Today he thinks Romeny made the correct vote” is, of course, all that one needs to glean from that. I said it was interesting. I didn’t specify, nor would I even attempt to specify ALL the reasons why. It’s just something (well, a lot of things really) interesting. Perhaps something for thoughtful reflection. But I understand that’s not a big thing in the world of the certain.
PTw (894877) — 2/10/2020 @ 6:56 amWith due respect, that doesn’t make a lot of sense, PTw.
It’s like saying I don’t think a juror would make a good surgeon, but I think the voted the right way on the alleged armed robbery.
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:01 amSince he was a fictional character it’s possible to ascribe superhuman powers of conscious deductive skills.
It never ceases to amaze me how many, obviously intelligent, well-educated and seemingly sane, people claim that Sherlock Holmes was a fictional character. The plain facts are that he existed, he was the greatest detective of his time, Dr. Watson was his assistant and biographer, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was Watson’s literary agent. It makes me want to shake my head.
nk (1d9030) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:03 am@320 I’ve noticed from other comments that you have an issue understanding word tense. You also seem to have trouble following separate concepts that might be spread across more than one sentence. I might have been wrong about your reading comprehension skills.
There is a difference between could not have (past tense) and can not (present tense). There is also a difference between describing how a decision was reached and the decision itself. Now, I understand these are complex concepts and it might be hard for you to follow. But it’s possible for a conclusion to be true and the process used to reach it flawed. It’s also possible to discuss the conclusion separately from the process.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:06 amNerd
Dustin (689188) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:08 amI’m surprised Team People Who Care About the Truth is now arguing for intuition and letting the subconscious have free reign.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:11 amfrosty, you are amazing.
And wrong.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:14 am@328 Wait, you just dissed me, I’m perplexed. Insult me in a line, compliment me on the next.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:14 amI’m surprised Team People Who Care About the Truth is now arguing for intuition and letting the subconscious have free reign.
Yeah, see nobody said that. You just lie for no good reason. Stop it!
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:17 amThanks for sharing
Dustin (689188) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:18 am“It’s like saying I don’t think a juror would make a good surgeon, but I think the voted the right way on the alleged armed robbery.”
Make America Ordered Again (23f793) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:01 am
… where the alleged robber became lead surgeon instead of him.
Munroe (dd6b64) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:19 amRagspierre,
Let’s avoid personal attacks please.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:24 amY’know. I bet Patterico, who rapped Romney for a lack of consistency and brass balls in 2015, figured that Mittens would go the way of Collins and Sasse and Lamar! in 2019. The, golly gee, that was kind of bad but I suspect he learned something and we can’t really be removing him nonsense.
The thing I saw in Romney’s speech is that he really, really wanted to be that guy. And he just couldn’t do it.
So, yes, Munroe, thank you to pointing us to that 2015 poston Romney. It just doesn’t prove what you think it proves.
Appalled (1a17de) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:27 amWhile I’ll admit to that sin at times, in this instance I was attacking the observation, not the person making it.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:28 amPerhaps someone needs to set you straight about “what abouts” Munroe, since that’s all you do here.
“Ignore the current travesty by my guy because here’s this reference to something allegedly bad done by the opposition” is the sort of contentless dodge that is your only move at this blog.
“Your attack on this candidate’s character is hypocritical because you have ignored the same exact thing from your guy” is a valid attack on the hypocrisy of the person leveling the argument. It doesn’t prove anything about the character or lack thereof of either candidate discussed. But identifying rank hypocrisy (of the sort you engage in regularly here) is a useful exercise, in my opinion.
That’s the difference. I don’t expect you to understand it and reflect on it. I don’t write my comments for you. I write them for other people. I could not care less what you think.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:30 am“Stupid” is kind of aggressive. I just said another commenter regularly engages in hypocrisy, so my hands aren’t clean, but I am just asking you to watch the aggressiveness a tad.
Patterico (115b1f) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:33 amYessir. I will.
Thanks for the forum, BTW.
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/10/2020 @ 7:34 amFrosty, I wish I had time to look up the links. There was a cool study done a while back around decision making and changing people’s pre-conceptions based on evidence. The observation was a large number of the the people made decisions first on the subconscious level and then justified it.
Similar to what you laid out but with the added context that not every participate responded like this on every question.
For instance a car guys mind might be made up about something as soon as they hear the brand. A person that isn’t sure whether or not Ford is a division of Chrysler wouldn’t have that same reaction.
Time123 (b0628d) — 2/10/2020 @ 8:17 am@341 I’ll see if I can find it. Cognitive studies on decision making are fascinating. It can be very hard to change a person’s mind and it might be harder for a person to change their own. It’s counter-intuitive but sometimes initial ignorance on a topic can lead to a better outcome. People can work from a type of Bayesian process. There’s nothing wrong with that in theory and it can be a very successful strategy. But sometimes a more Markov type process is needed.
I’m also fascinated by some of the studies of people in groups. There’s a movie on Netflix about Milgram that covers more than just the famous experiment. I especially liked the Solomon Asch conformity experiment.
frosty (f27e97) — 2/10/2020 @ 8:56 amI remember how on Powerline blog someone was very impressed with Romney in 2007 – I felt bad about that.
Sammy Finkelman (8e96a4) — 2/10/2020 @ 9:47 amCPAC chair says Romney was uninvited because ‘physical safety’ would be at risk
Amazing. According to the chair of CPAC, if somebody did you a political favor in the past you’re required to look the other way when they do something corrupt in the future.
Trump has turned the GOP into his personal mafia.
Dave (1bb933) — 2/10/2020 @ 1:56 pmhttps://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/as-louisiana-gop-censures-mitt-romney-david-duke-laughs
Well, just so we keep everything in perspective…
Ragspierre (d9bec9) — 2/11/2020 @ 7:10 pm