The Women in Whom E. Jean Carroll Confided Go Public
E. Jean Carroll is the woman saying Donald Trump had a sexual encounter with her 23 years ago, which many people describe as rape. (She doesn’t call it rape, as we will see.) Yesterday, the women in whom Carroll confided went public with their stories, kind of. It was done in a podcast called “The Daily” with a New York Times reporter. The podcast was released today, and I just finished listening to it.
Now that I have heard the story, it doesn’t sound like it was clear to Trump that Carroll was not consenting.
The interview is done very badly. I don’t know if the women made it a condition that they get together with one another and with E. Jean Carroll all at the same time, but that’s how the interview was done. If your goal was to find out what the women independently remember about what Carroll told them, forget it. You barely hear from them in the podcast. It’s certainly an unusual way to conduct an interview that is supposed to be corroboration of Carroll. It begins with Carroll recounting the whole incident, in the presence of the other two women. Minimal details are elicited from the two women about what Carroll actually said at the time. Most of the story comes from Carroll.
And even coming from Carroll, it doesn’t sound like it was necessarily clear to Trump that Carroll was not consenting. She herself refuses to call it rape. She describes a lot of flirtatious banter between her and Trump, which she thought was fantastic. The encounter began with Trump soliciting her advice about lingerie, and quickly turned to a teasing conversation about who was going to try on the lingerie: her, or Trump. (Trump said she should. She said Trump should.) They get to the dressing room and then he moves on her. She never says a word throughout the encounter — no “what are you doing?” or “no!” But she does describe it as a fight.
When she called the first woman, Lisa Birnbach, Carroll says she thought it was great material and was still laughing about it. Birnbach says that what Carroll was describing sounded like rape. According to Birnbach, she asked Carroll: “He raped you?” and Carroll made a noise like “ehhh.” Then the woman said that Carroll should go to the police, and Carroll flatly refused.
When Carroll called the second woman, Carol Martin, Martin told her to tell nobody. That’s about all you hear from Martin.
Almost nothing about what Carroll actually said to the women comes out of the women’s mouths in the podcast. It’s mostly Carroll describing the incident, and New York Times reporters flapping their meatholes.
But the overall impression one gets is that Donald Trump maybe just thought he had a quick sexual encounter with this woman. That she was interested in him because he was famous, and that she found the whole thing funny — before and after the encounter, certainly, if perhaps not during the encounter.
It’s not what I expected going in.
Terrible job by the New York Times. And I say that as someone who despises Donald Trump.
[Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.]
Before listening, I actually expected to find myself *more* convinced that Trump raped someone. But now I am far *less* convinced.
Patterico (115b1f) — 6/27/2019 @ 7:58 amI cannot emphasize enough what a crappy job the NYT did here. Just awful.
Patterico (115b1f) — 6/27/2019 @ 7:59 amIf you consider the NYT’s goals, the crappy job is quite predictable: Apostates must be gotten off-stage as quickly as possible.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/27/2019 @ 8:19 amI think this particular rape accusation is a big nothingburger. And this does nothing to improve my opinion of Trump. Not one single iota.
Gryph (08c844) — 6/27/2019 @ 8:24 amSo, did EJC talk about how she knew Trump? What was their relationship before and after the incident? or was that just skipped over?
rcocean (1a839e) — 6/27/2019 @ 8:48 amIf you consider the NYT’s goals, the crappy job is quite predictable
IOW, one man’s bug is another man’s feature.
(You can quote me on that.)
Bored Lawyer (998177) — 6/27/2019 @ 8:50 amRegarding the lack of no and lack of scream…it is possible she was silent from shock that a rumored (amongst a really tight clique of prominent Noo Yawkers) cross-dresser and possible queen could have went for a woman with that ferocity.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 6/27/2019 @ 8:56 am“It’s not what I expected going in.”
Yes, but he lied about never meeting the lady, when there was a photo with both of them in it!
So, no rape, but clearly guilty of obstructing legit investigative journalism. I say, more grounds for impeachment.
Munroe (ba3627) — 6/27/2019 @ 9:03 amAh, just wonderful to be exposed to lurid details thanks to our President. I was quite fearful there for awhile because an entire generation managed to grow up without hearing about Oval Office hummers or dressing room quickies.
JVW (54fd0b) — 6/27/2019 @ 9:38 am“Ah, just wonderful to be exposed to lurid details thanks to our President.”
JVW (54fd0b) — 6/27/2019 @ 9:38 am
Looks like you were asleep during the Kavanaugh hearings.
Munroe (d46cc3) — 6/27/2019 @ 9:46 amHe said he didn’t know her.
He never said he never saw her.
Quit lying about Trump.
rcocean (1a839e) — 6/27/2019 @ 10:51 amThank you for the summary. Appreciate a review from someone credible.
Time123 (daab2f) — 6/27/2019 @ 10:54 amInteresting who she ‘called’ given the context of the times and the powers that be in NYC media circles back in the day. It’s difficult to characterize on a blog the Manhattan media environment then; it is the nation’s biggest media market w/t flagship stations of the networks in town. Her husband at the time, John Johnson, as well as Martin were quite well known in the tri-state area. The push for diversity on air was strong given the demographics of the market. They wanted women and minority faces on air. If memory serves, back in the day, Carol Martin, was then a popular African-American local NYC TV reporter at WCBS TV, Channel 2, just as her husband, John Johnson was at WABC TV. Birnbach was a well known writer in publishing circles around town– the sort you’d add to the guest list for a mixer at a dinner party and such. ‘Page Six’ types. If only she’d called the cops.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/27/2019 @ 10:55 amFrom the previous thread:
nk (dbc370) — 6/27/2019 @ 12:21 pmYe gods… Pat… why did I listen to this? Not that I don’t trust your take Pat.
But, it’s even worse than that. Talk about the self-ownage here… wow.
whembly (51f28e) — 6/27/2019 @ 12:28 pm@7. The ‘Page Six’ crowd. ‘Nuff said.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/27/2019 @ 12:38 pmI do have one reservation. She is 75 years old and I imagine her friends are about the same age.
nk (dbc370) — 6/27/2019 @ 12:45 pmi.e. “Quit lying about someone who lies with impunity on such a regular basis that it’s hard to keep up with all the lies. It’s completely cool if Trump lies about other people. It is NOT okay to say anything about Trump that I consider inaccurate and/or unflattering.”
Lying by Trump is always only trivial. “Lying” about Trump is a horrible sin.
Radegunda (1db015) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:27 pmThat was a Trump superfan not realizing that another Trump superfan was being ironic, Radegunda.
nk (dbc370) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:33 pm‘Lying by Trump is always only trivial. “Lying” about Trump is a horrible sin.’
Radegunda (1db015) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:27 pm
Looks like the Whaddabout buffet table is open.
Munroe (ba3c0f) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:34 pmthey had deleted this one, just now, it might count against interest:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lisa-birnbach-assassin_b_316009
so they have contemporaneous documentation, a date in question, or is it spitballing,
narciso (d1f714) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:48 pm@17. Genuinely appreciate your sense of humor, nk.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:51 pm@Radegunda
many (but not all) of the trump superfans that comment here have been very clear that they don’t care about ethics, principles, morality and that dishonest and illegal acts that benefit trump are not only OK but good. For these superfans (not all) the overriding principle isn’t truth, morals, or consistency. The overriding principle is ‘good for Trump’.
If someone lies about Trump they should be called out on it.
In this case no one did. Munroe didn’t say Trump knew her, only that Trump met her.
It looks like RC was criticizing something no one said.
Time123 (daab2f) — 6/27/2019 @ 2:13 pmIts astounding how you can’t even get the BASIC FACTS from the MSM anymore. Everything is just sloppiness and Democrat/Liberal propaganda.
rcocean (1a839e) — 6/27/2019 @ 2:53 pmJust to repeat. Trump said he “didn’t know her”. He DID NOT say “I never saw her“. I have shaken and exchanged pleasantries with hundreds of people in the business world. I Don’t know them – and not just in the biblical sense. Trump has had his picture taken with thousands of people. He’s probably shaken hands and said “How do you do?” to thousands. That doesn’t mean he KNEW THEM.
And once again, I have cannot find ANYWHERE whether EJC claims to have socialized with Trump before they met. Evidently, nobody in the MSM thinks it important whether Trump didn’t know EJC before he attempted to rape the 52 y/o in a public place.
rcocean (1a839e) — 6/27/2019 @ 2:58 pmBTW, just like Kavanaugh-Ford, I’m supposed to believe as credible someone who can’t even say what YEAR the assault took place. Yes, it was seared into her memory. The night the POTUS raped her. Except was in 1995 or 1996? Hey, details, details.
And she’s a WRITER. She didn’t write a journal entry? She didn’t keep a diary? She didn’t send an email and keep it? Guess having a Billionaire try to rape you at 52 in public is just no big whoop.
rcocean (1a839e) — 6/27/2019 @ 3:02 pm25.26.
rcocean on 6/27/2019 @ 2:58 pm & 3:02 pm
There’s only this picture, which is supposed to be a rebuttal and was taken in 1987, eight years or so before the date of this supposed incident. I don’t know where anywhere the connection of thsi picture or the the date of 1987 is given, but those facts seem to be assumed. In the New York magazine story Donald Trump doesn’t know her name, but only knows her as “that advice lady,” presumably from a low rated cable television show – and she also doesn’t know his name! but only knows him as “that real estate tycoon” – or at least echoes him.
Now, nobody knew Donald Trump more as a real estate “tycoon” – was anybody still using the word tycoon in speech in 1995? – that sounds like 1925 – more as a real estate tycoon, than as D*O*N*A*L*D T*R*U*M*P
By that time he was also known for his Atlantic City casinos.
Well, notionally, Trump does this to a lot of women. And gets away with because….Roy Cohn is his lawyer maybe?
Only Roy Cohn was dead and disbarred almost ten years by 1995.
She’s giving anywhere from the fall of 1995 to the spring of 1996 except it can’t be cold outside, so at one end of that range or the other.
Now I think that date was set entirely by thw coatdress – when it was in fashion. And it’s one thing she happened to have kept, not kept because it was significant to her..
She never had sexual intercourse again.
She didn’t say wheter it was day or night, except nobody else was in the store.
Even a few years later.
And the two women she talked to also. There should be something that memorialized the date. At any rate she should know it.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/27/2019 @ 3:29 pmSomewhere she said it was at night because the store was empty.
rcocean (1a839e) — 6/27/2019 @ 9:05 pmAnyone taking this story seriously needs a reality check.
Claiming that DJT was even 3 feet inside Bergdorf in the 80’s or 90’s, and not immediately swarmed by sales people like bees on honey, may as well say that a hot blonde would pass unnoticed on a troopship. Bergdorf was not populated with somnolent sales clerks. But right–he cruised into a dressing room and assaulted her, left and no one noticed.
Claiming to have “told friends,” means she shared her Law & Order fantasy to enhance her own fading appeal, and to impress similarly aging friends. But she cleverly downplayed it (“it was so fun,” or “of course I loved it”),so no one felt compelled to report it.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (6b1442) — 6/28/2019 @ 8:27 am29. Harcourt Fenton Mudd (6b1442) — 6/28/2019 @ 8:27 am
Good point about no sales clerks noticing Donald Trump. Possible, but another thing that adds to the unlikelihood of this.
Are you saying that you think she really did tell a version of this story to a few people in 1995 or so? Then why do you use the word “claiming” Claiming means that she probably didn’t really tell.
My feeling is that the friends have to be lying too, however their doing so might have to be explained. That might account for their limited words, since they don’t want to say anything which might undermine E. Jean Carroll’s story, or get a question for which they have no answer, or get tripped up some way.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/28/2019 @ 8:43 am28. rcocean (1a839e) — 6/27/2019 @ 9:05 pm
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/28/2019 @ 9:41 amThe New York Times had afollow-up story Saturday aweek ago. The two women are identified.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/us/politics/jean-carroll-trump-sexual-assault.html
They now settled on the year 1996. She says it happened on a day she had taped a segment o her TV sow “Ask E. Jean” at a studio in Fort Lee, N.J. and when it ended around 5 p.m., she decided to come into Manhattan to shop at Bergdorf Goodman, which she says was her favorite store. (but she didn’t buy anything and was leaving when Donald trump was coming in)
The first woman she says she told, she says she told her when she got out of the street. she called her (from a pay phone?)
This was Lisa Birnbach, author of “The Official Preppy Handbook” There seems to be soem disagreement as to E Jean Carroll’s mood. She was laughing, but Ms. Birnbach said in an interview that she was verwrought and “I remember her repeatedly saying, ‘He pulled down my tights, he pulled down my tights.’
She says she said “I think he raped you” and “Let’s go to the police.”
On election night in 2016, E Jean Carroll was at Ms. Birnbach’s home watching the results adn she says taht she thought there was a moment when she and Ms. Birnbach shared a knowing look about Mr. Trump, but Ms. Birnbach did not recall it and said that in fact by that point she had forgotten what Ms. Carroll had told her.
The second person she says she told was Carol Martin, also at her network, and they agree that she advised her to stay silent.
When the Access Hollywood tape came out she was at her dying moter;s bedside with her siblings and didn’t say anyting about it.
meanwhile there are accusaitons against he husband, John Johnson, of beating her, which everyone is acting as if they were true.
Then there’s another thing:
In 1981 the New York Times called her “feminism’s answer to Hunter S. Thompson” sd at dome point, she claiemd to ahve ahda relationship with Hunter S. Thompson.
is that true? It should be possible to come to some sort of an evaluation of that.
There’s a book published in 1993: https://www.amazon.com/Hunter-Strange-Savage-Life-Thompson/dp/0525935681
Oh look at this review from 2013:
After about two Chapters. 50 or so pages in. A 2014 review says “a complete rip off and the writer should be skewered and roasted over an open fire and used to feed everyone who bought this pathetic scam.” A June 27, 2019 review says the link doesn’t even work.
The original hardcover gets bettwer reviews. One from 1999, says:
Fictional accounts of meeting with Hunter? e know that for sure? What is she, Edmund Morris?
Anotehr reviwe says she e=spnt along weekend with Hunter Thompson. Anoter one sasy sxhe tried to imitate him.
And from 2002, one review speaks of “plainly fictitius tales of wacky hijinks with the good doctor.”
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 7/5/2019 @ 2:12 pmThe New York Times article also ranks this accusation as the worst one that’s ever been made against Donald Trump.
Sammy Finkelman (102c75) — 7/5/2019 @ 2:13 pm