A Thoughtful Initial Response To Migrant Children Being Held At Border Patrol Station
[guest post by Dana]
There is nothing about the border crisis that is not overwhelming. The Border Patrol is overwhelmed by sheer numbers of migrants crossing the border. A facility designed to house 100 detainees is now having to hold more than 300 individuals. And the number of unaccompanied children is overwhelming. As elected officials on both sides of the aisle attempt to advantageously use the crisis of children being detained in unacceptable conditions and push their party’s agenda, I was pleasantly surprised to read a response that mirrored my own. Because whatever the reason for these children landing here, it is through no fault of their own. Anyway, the intent of my post isn’t to argue the politics of illegal immigration, but rather write a small post about me nodding my head in agreement.
The Associated Press tweeted a link to their report about the 300+ children that were moved out of an overwhelmed Texas border station due to unsanitary and unhygienic conditions:
The U.S. government has removed most children from a remote Border Patrol station in Texas near the border with Mexico following reports that more than 300 children were detained there and caring for each other with inadequate food, water and sanitation.
Only about 30 children remained at the station outside El Paso on Monday, Rep. Veronica Escobar said after her office was briefed on the situation by a U.S. Customs and Border Protection official.
Most of the infants, toddlers and teens who were held at the Border Patrol station in Clint, Texas, were scheduled to be transferred by Tuesday to shelters and other facilities run by a separate federal agency, the Office of Refugee Resettlement said.
Attorneys involved in monitoring care for migrant children who visited Clint last week said older children were trying to take care of toddlers, The Associated Press reported Thursday. They described a 4-year-old with matted hair who had gone without a shower for days, and hungry, inconsolable children struggling to soothe one another. Some had been locked for three weeks inside the facility, where 15 children were sick with the flu and another 10 were in medical quarantine.
(Other reports note that area residents have left donations of diapers, baby wipes, soap and toothbrushes at the station office but the items were rejected by Border Patrol. No reason for the rejection was given.)
Theologian, pastor, and the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission President Dr. Russell Moore tweeted in response to the report:
The reports of the conditions for migrant children at the border should shock all of our consciences. Those created in the image of God should be treated with dignity and compassion, especially those seeking refuge from violence back home. We can do better than this.
No matter where one falls on the immigration spectrum, it would seem at the very least, that this is the correct initial reaction. It is a response rooted in compassion, not politics. It is a response rooted in the basic idea that everyone has intrinsic value. It is a response rooted in the Christian exhortation to love our neighbors as ourselves. And lastly, it is a response rooted in the belief that, through the grace of God and because of the grace of God, we can indeed do better. What this response isn’t, is a call for open borders or a call to ignore our immigration laws. And it isn’t a call to close the border either.
Anyway, what a stark contrast between Dr. Moore’s encouragement toward a reaction reflecting something of God, and that of Jerry Falwell, Jr.:
Who are you @drmoore ? Have you ever made a payroll? Have you ever built an organization of any type from scratch? What gives you authority to speak on any issue? I’m being serious. You’re nothing but an employee- a bureaucrat.
Oh hell, I’ve never made a payroll either. And I’ve never built an organization from scratch (just like you, Jerry!). And you know what, I’m not even an employee any longer but here I am schooling you, you arrogant weenie. And last I read, Jerry, there were a couple of noted yahoos in the Book who also weren’t technically “qualified” to speak on certain issues – and between you and me, they lied, lusted, cheated and deceived their way through life – yet crazily enough, God still anointed them as qualified to speak with the greatest of authority on His behalf. Go figure.
(Cross-posted at The Jury Talks Back.)
–Dana
This is just a sad business all the way around.
Dana (bb0678) — 6/25/2019 @ 6:25 pmJerry Falwell, Junior. Uh-huh.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/25/2019 @ 6:35 pmThis crisis didn’t just happen. It was created by the previous regime for the previous regime’s own reasons. They let it be known that certain words were like “Open Sesame” and this lax policy started a flood. And here we are. Trump’s attempts to actually enforce immigration law and require more than assertion regarding asylum requests have meant that the border facilities are stacking up (instead of just being allowed to enter the country on a (often unmet) promise to appear later.
The media try to portray this as Trump’s doing, and the incompetence we see certainly is, but had the Obama folks followed the law, most of these folks would not have thought to migrate north.
Yes, we should do all that we can do, but we also need to firmly (and humanely) turn back all who do not qualify for entry, until the message flows back that the loophole is closed.
We ALSO need to fix our immigration laws, so that those on this continent have priority.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 6/25/2019 @ 6:41 pmJerry Falwell, Junior. ??
Yeah he built that organization from scratch. Right. And sure, he is meeting those payrolls, through his own hard fund-raising efforts. Bet* he uses lots of photos of Dad.
——-
Kevin M (21ca15) — 6/25/2019 @ 6:44 pm*supposition
need to firmly (and humanely)
Doing both of those together may not be possible.
Meanwhile, remember the drowned Syrian toddler?
Kishnevi (0db329) — 6/25/2019 @ 6:49 pmWell, we now have a drowned father and daughter.
[Warning: the first image may fairly be classified as disturbing]
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/06/25/americas/mexico-photo-of-father-and-daughter-dead-in-rio-grande/index.html
Jerry Falwell, Jr. is not a preacher, although he has a B.A. in religious studies. He is a lawyer and … wait for it … a college administrator. President of Liberty University, a job he inherited from his father. He is also a Trumpkin to match any Trumpkin, and this is where this remark comes from.
nk (dbc370) — 6/25/2019 @ 6:57 pmYes it was.
According to the Border Patrol:
1) They can’t legally use resources not appropriated by Congress
Dave (1bb933) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:04 pm2) They’re not running low on the supplies in question.
Thanks for the follow-up, Dave. I see that the explanation came late this afternoon.
Dana (bb0678) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:10 pmI’d also imagine that collecting and ensuring the safety of items originating from unknown sources is not an effective use of their limited manpower.
Suppose some nutcase anonymously drops off toothpaste or soap or shampoo laced with something bad. With emotions running so high, it’s foolish to take unnecessary risks.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:18 pmPackaged, name brand diapers seems like something they would run through quickly and always be able to use.
Dana (bb0678) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:24 pmKishnevi, that is a sad story and there are no “buts”. That father was looking for a better life for his little girl. Period.
nk (dbc370) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:34 pmneed to firmly (and humanely)
Doing both of those together may not be possible.
A failure to send a clear message that the border is no longer own is, in itself, inhumane as it invites more people into the same terrible situation. Sometimes being the bad guy is what saves lives, and being the people-pleaser is what kills folks.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:50 pm*no longer OPEN
gah.
Kevin M (21ca15) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:51 pm“We can do better than this.”
Okay.
Slow clap.
What next, Dr. Moore?
Munroe (afb19e) — 6/25/2019 @ 7:57 pmI think you may be missing the point, Munroe.
Dana (bb0678) — 6/25/2019 @ 8:33 pmFalwell has made no secret that his first allegiance is to Trump, and then maybe God. But to be so utterly tone-deaf and critical of a well thought out response is embarrassing.
Dana (bb0678) — 6/25/2019 @ 8:36 pmGreater love hath no man than a Trumpkin hath for Big Orange. No slight, express or implied, is too slight to be brooked.
nk (dbc370) — 6/25/2019 @ 8:42 pmMissing the point, dodging the point, whatever. I’ve forgotten — is Deflection the #3 position on the Decoder Ring?
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/25/2019 @ 9:02 pm“Missing the point, dodging the point, whatever. I’ve forgotten — is Deflection the #3 position on the Decoder Ring?”
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/25/2019 @ 9:02 pm
Still in default position. Waiting for some kind of input data change.
Munroe (808123) — 6/25/2019 @ 9:09 pmWhat next, Dr. Moore?
Dr. Moore can speak for himself, but I’d say dump Trump and get ourselves a President who can find his ass with both hands.
nk (dbc370) — 6/25/2019 @ 9:13 pm#20 (nk).
I think he can find that of which you speak. Otherwise, he would be unable to tweet.
By the way, thanks for the info on Falwell, Jr. I had assumed he was a preacher like Dad. I am actually kind of stunned that he is not. It’s almost like all his moralizing and Trupiness should come with a disclaimer.
Appalled (d07ae6) — 6/26/2019 @ 5:35 amYou’re welcome, Appalled.
nk (dbc370) — 6/26/2019 @ 5:40 amIn fairness to Falwell, Jr, this seems a pretty good summary of who he is and what he believes.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/04/how-jerry-falwell-jr-transformed-liberty-university-into-a-wildly-profitable-online-empire/
Falwell is not a moral leader, and it appears he does not think of himself as a moral leader. He has a unique problem — his name says something very different. And I bet that Falwell, like Trump, is well attuned to the use of a brand name.
Appalled (d07ae6) — 6/26/2019 @ 6:25 amMunroe, have you decided yet if we should treat children in our custody humanly or inhumanly ?
Because that seems to be the key question. If it’s OK to treat children in our custody inhumanly than there are no next steps. If we need to treat them humanly than it seems like there are lot of things we should do next.
So have you come up with an answer? Doesn’t seem like all that hard of a ethical dilemma but you haven’t answered it yet.
Time123 (441f53) — 6/26/2019 @ 7:12 am“Because that seems to be the key question.“
Time123 (441f53) — 6/26/2019 @ 7:12 am
Yes, it’s certainly a key question, right up there with How long have you been beating your wife?
That this would be the key question, unlocking the mystery of a real solution (is that right?), and that an empty platitude like “We can do better” wins accolades as “thoughtful”, is emblematic of how thoroughly vapid the immigration debate has become.
As for next steps, do tell. How do we prevent more inhumane treatment of these children, and more children being treated as pawns by people who should know better? Try to answer without using another vapid catchphrase like “comprehensive immigration reform”. I’m waiting.
Munroe (09eb19) — 6/26/2019 @ 7:59 amMunroe, it’s not a ‘gotcha’ question.
We have children in our custody.
I get that you’re angry that we have these children in our custody. But unless you want to release them, we have to make a decision on how we treat them.
I think we have to treat children in our custody humanly. I’ll answer you questions if you can give a clear answer to mine.
Time123 (441f53) — 6/26/2019 @ 8:06 amNo Time123, sorry, I’m not bailing you out.
Your question is shallow and asinine on its face, and I will not help you make it seem less so by answering it.
Munroe (c9b32e) — 6/26/2019 @ 8:31 amIn other words you can’t figure out how to answer it.
Lmao.
Good to know where your mental capacity ends.
Time123 (ecd105) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:10 amThe only question is how fanatical ( how fanatical, because you won’t be infinitely fanatical, but will stop short at some point, which will not be a stable number of illegal immigrants per month or year but will vary depending upon circumstances) – how fanatical are you going to be about enforcing the law and trying to assure that no person can gain from illegal immigration>
Or, on the contrary, will you admit that enforcing the law to the hilt in the future , is something you have to give up on, and therefore, just as there is now for those who have already come, there will be a strong case or amnesty for those who will come illegally in the future, and therefore amnesty should not be conditional on “controlling the border” because that will never happen?
And should a general rule for future amnesty for those who are yet to come (because the restrictions will not allow anyone to deny that that it logically will happen again) should be enacted?
Or would you propose it should happen instead anytime Democrats control both Houses of Congress and the presidency, giving Democrats a very potent election issue and locking up a a growing number of voters? (Democrats, of course, being Democrats, will not want to put the issue to rest, so will do something incomplete.)
The rule could perhaps be a “statute of limitations.
And should citizenship really be granted to, not just to all people born here, but to all those who have spent an extensive portion of their childhood in the United States, with possibly a few rare exceptions?
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:15 am“Good to know where your mental capacity ends.”
Time123 (ecd105) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:10 am
I don’t mind your personal attack, but it will be interesting to discover how consistently the blog rules are enforced here.
I attacked your question, not you personally.
Munroe (f09cab) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:36 am25. Munroe (09eb19) — 6/26/2019 @ 7:59 am
make it easier to immigrate legally, and keep as an important factor the degree of desire people have to bring their children here, instead of trying to sy that shiuld be no facotor at all because…sovreignty!
That is a vapid phrase. In fact, it’s nonsense. It presumes some tradeoff. One side gets liberalization of the law and amnesty and the other side gets enforecement of the new law. It won’t happen. The politics won’t even alloww fr it to pretend to happen. And the proposed amnesty is always incomplete, yet nobody, not even he restrictionists, seriously proposes deporting all those who would not qualify for it.
Another phrase we shouldn’t hear any more of is “merit based.” (which presumes a total figure, which is then divided.)
In writing an immigration bill:
1) No total figure of legal immigration should ever the starting point of negotiationa, because that will doom any proposed bill. In Congress they always agree on that at first and that is why every bill has failed.
2) The bill also should have no numbers in the executable portion of the law. Conditions can be set, and the conditions may even be changed from time to time according to numbers, but there should be no quotaa, not for immigrants, and not for work visas.
Quotas are either too high, in which case they are meaningless, like the quotas for Ireland was between 1924 and 1967, or too low, which means, once you’ve set it to below about 50% of the demand, the conditions don’t serve their original purpose. Set conditions only.
Numbers are put into the law to make bills pass, by allowing someone to claim a parade of orribles has been avoided. They’ll have to be avoided some other way.
3) The United States government should avoid getting into a situation of giving a flat no to anoe. based on something other than national security or criminal or punishment grounds.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:36 amMunroe, you’re right. That comment was out of line. I’m sorry I made it. Please accept my apology.
Time123 (ecd105) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:38 am“No matter where one falls on the immigration spectrum, it would seem at the very least, that this is the correct initial reaction. …”
Initial reaction? Where the hell have you been?
This problem has been going on for well over fifty (50) years. See Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982) – 5/4 decision that opened the floodgates and denied Texas the remedy of self-help when the feds (judiciary, legislature & executive) were totally derelict to their duty – and once again pitifully punted. Followed shortly by Simpson-Mazzoli – the Immigration and Control Act of 1986 – that promised America/Americans that it would be a 1-time thing and would end illegal immigration that gave amnesty to 3-Million+ – was a FRAUD as it spawned 20-Million+ more illegals. Can you say SHAMNESTY?
We have had decades of deceit, duplicity, denial, dereliction of duty and dysfunction re both legal and illegal immigration and the control of our borders. Now Dystopia? Similarly is America’s own homeless, drug and crime problems. Not to mention our $22+Trillion budget deficit and the Deep State’s conjure of Trump-Russian collusion. Any sane person would stop for a moment and actually ask themselves – Where in the hell has our Constitution and the Rule of Law gone? What has our government become? Recall limited government? Is our federal government capable of solving problems anymore? Or is it THE problem? Furthermore, anyone who would point the finger at Donald Trump regarding any problem regarding illegal immigration, or Jerry Falwell, Jr. – is just simply delusional and scapegoating.
Gary L. Zerman (ab669e) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:41 amHow long has Joe Biden been in DC? Bernie Sanders? Nancy Pelosi? Chuck Schumer? The Clintons? Mitch McConnell?
The title of this piece ‘A Thoughtful Initial Response to Migrant Children Being Held At Border Patrol Station’ – is a canard. It is neither thoughtful nor initial. People have been dying to cross the border and Americans have been being killed by illegals – for decades. The fed government thus has had BLOOD on its hands for decades. Similarly, so do city, county and state officials – with bogus Sanctuary Cities, etc. Such has done nothing to solve the problem, but in fact has made it much, much, worse. Why do we entertain such clap trap? We must stop these Polly-Anna juvenile appeals to emotion – ‘the children’ – always the go-to when absent a real factual argument. Instead we must have the fortitude and courage to employ reason to achieve real adult solutions to illegal immigration problems. It is called the proper Rule of Law. It once separated American from the rest of the world – but now as we ignore it – we 3rd world America.
How have we come to routinely accept such failure and mis-leadership from our federal government?
Here (below) is a letter to the editor of California Lawyer magazine that I wrote back in 2008 – that points out that no thinking person should now be having an ‘initial reaction’ to anything to do with immigration – legal or illegal. GLZ.
______________________________________________________
letters_callaw@dailyjournal.com [August 14, 2008]
Letter to the Editor:
Thomas Brom’s “Let Them In, Over Taken By Events – O-B-E” [August 2008] is spin. Spin out of control. First, America already generously Let’s Them In, granting legal resident status and naturalized citizenship every year, to about 2.5 million immigrants. Significantly more than any other nation.
Second, Mr. Brom’s “Let Them In” theme reminded me of the callous quip about a woman getting raped: “Hey, why fight it, just sit back, relax and enjoy it.” That theory’s a non-starter, readily proven again by the 1993 rape, then murder, of Jennifer Ertman (14) and Elizabeth Pena (16), by illegal alien gang member Jose Ernesto Medellin (now 33). Texas just executed him. More recent, there’s SF’s triple murder of the Bologna family in June 2008, LA’s murder of Jamiel Shaw, Jr., in March 2008, and Newark’s execution-style murders of three college students in August 2007. (Illustrative, not exhaustive.) All the product of insane sanctuary city policies coddling and harboring convicted criminal illegal aliens. City, county, state and fed officials all have blood on their hands.
Third, Mr. Brom’s piece referred to three books advocating open borders, published in 2007-8. I call Mr. Brom and raise him: Michelle Malkin’s Invasion (2002), Victor Davis Hanson’s Mexifornia: A State of Becoming (2003) and Pat Buchanan’s State of Emergency (2006). Fourth, what happened to – the Rule of Law? That America is a nation of laws, not men. That no man is above the law, and that’s what separates America from the rest of the world. Let them in? Open borders? Strange arguments coming from a lawyers’ magazine, but guess we’re just living in the world of Superman Bizarro.
Fifth, we have not been O-B-E, but in fact have had decades of deceit, denial, dysfunction and dereliction of duty (maybe by design NAFTA, NAU, SPP), from all three branches of our federal government. Example: Plyler v. Doe, 457 US 202 (1982), a 5/4 Brennan opinion that admitted the fed’s total failure on illegal immigration, flew in the face of Fong Yu Ting (cited in Brom’s piece, but curiously absent from Plyler), opened the floodgates (see fnt. 2 in Plyler dissent, estimating 3-12 million illegal aliens as of 1981), and denied Texas the natural law remedy of self help. Then California’s Prop 187, torpedoed by a single federal judge. Example: the 1986 bi-partisan Simpson-Mizzoli bill that graciously gave amnesty to 3 million+ illegal aliens, and promised American citizens that it would be – a one-time fix. Can you say Shamnesty? Because that was a fraud, fixed nothing and spawned another 12-20 million+ illegals. Example: the recent 5/4 USSC opinions of Boumediene v. Bush and Dada v. Mukasey, foolishly giving more rights and opening further our courts, to terrorist combatants and illegals, thus making even longer ques for Americans to use their own courts. (See “[Fed] Circuit Judges Decry Immigration Case ‘Tsunami’” by Tony Mauro, 8/12/08 Legal Times and “New Nightmare Census Projections Reveal CHAIN MIGRATION Still Choking Our Future” by Roy Beck, 8/14/08 NumbersUSA.) Example: The dereliction of Presidents Carter to G.W. Bush on this issue, most notably their failure to prosecute cheating employers who hire illegals and refuse to use E-Verify.
Separation of powers, the so-called checks & balances? Phooey! The Rule of Law? Phooey! We are trillions in debt, yet the politicos and judges never ask, who or how we will pay for their frolics. We get the shaft from all three branches, plus we get to pay the “check” for the actually not so cheaper labor. The same is true for too many state, county and city governments/officials (sanctuary cities); the media (Mr. Brom’s own “It’s why an editor… may choose to bury a story rather than put it on the front page.”); and, the big corp bandits & pirates (that out-source American jobs, hire the illegals and push for more H-1B visas to in-source more foreign workers). The Dems want more voters; the Repubs (and US Chamber of Commerce) want cheap labor. It can be argued, we are well down the road to anarchy. (See HBO’s “The Second Civil War” (1997).) But the Will of the People has always been clear: STOP IT! Most recently rising up to stop the bogus bi-partisan “comprehensive” shamnesty bill. Yet all ever required was leadership and integrity. To simply apply reason, enforce our existing laws, and follow the advice of Deputy Barney Fife (of Andy of Mayberry): “Nip it. Nip it. Nip it in the bud.” The situation then would have been – the problem that never was.
But that takes courage. Instead, our politicos have chosen to pick the low hanging fruit, and to come up with one scam, scheme and bogus compromise, after another. We must look in the mirror. We must ask: Are we still capable of governing ourselves? Because at present, America has no real Rule of Law – with 12-20 million illegal aliens, it would be foolish to argue otherwise. Fact is, everything has been reduced to politics. Because if baseball used to be America’s pastime, it can be readily argued that today, our pastime now is – lying, cheating, stealing & spin. And it’s everywhere. And it’s destroying our American constitution, country, communities, culture and courts. And it’s killing us.
Open borders – NO! Enforce our laws – YES! Si se puede!
___________________________________
truth will not be rewarded, leftist non profits like the cigig star chamber benefit,
https://omny.fm/shows/the-sara-carter-show/gov-official-in-guatemala-u-s-aid-rarely-makes-it
narciso (d1f714) — 6/26/2019 @ 9:56 amnarciso @34. But of course.
So the idea of making Guatemala into a better country throuh U.S. aid should be tossed in the trashcan.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 10:01 amA few things to add context to the tweet battle between Mr. Falwell and Dr. Moore
1. Falwell is a very successful businessman, establishing Liberty U as an endowment generating enterprise. Unlike his friend Trump, he has managed to avoid bankruptcy.
2. I think Mr. Falwell missed a few jumps in his tweet, which causes it to come off as a wtf ad hominem. I expect Falwell is thinking about the practicalities of housing all the children coming unexpectedly to the border, and how to make that happen. Dr. Moore is a prominent mainstream southern baptist coming up through the church and really never has had to consider that. It’s a legitimate point of view, but it is transmuted by the magic of Twitter and the never apologize ethos of trumpworld into something grotesque.
3. A fellow named Jack Graham (a Baptist Pastor) also complained about Dr. Moore’s tweet. Dr. Moore answered: “I’m just saying what the President said tonight, that he is ‘very concerned’ about the situation.”
4. Falwell is trading on his name, to appear to be a beacon of moral authority (like making a speech at the D-Day anniversary in France), while disclaiming that he’s trying to do any such thing. If his name were Jerry Falk (and he were still President of Liberty U), nobody would pay any attention to him. He is a good businessman. He should embrace that role — as he does not have the political skills to be his father. He also does not have the calling.
Appalled (d07ae6) — 6/26/2019 @ 10:05 am33.
They shouldn’t have done that – that is, shouldn’t have said it would end illegal immigration. It did not employ the totalitarian methods necessary to do that.
The big problem was coming to an agreement that it would be a 1-time thing. Nobody in Congress was interested in arguing with that claim.
In that bill, they pretended that the reason immigration was limited was jobs, using an economic theory not used otherwise, and they pretended people wouldn’t find a way around the ID requirements.
And they pretended also, and still do, that nobdy is employed off the books or by small businesses.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 11:36 amDemocrats see illegals as Democrat Voters. The establishment Republicans want cheap Labor. Both parties have been bought off by the Chamber of Commerce and Wall Street.
Everyone thing else is hot air.
rcocean (1a839e) — 6/26/2019 @ 12:25 pmThe dems knew what would happen sammeh.
Russell Moore does indeed for amnesty without considering the cost, to communities states and localities
Narciso (30eb7e) — 6/26/2019 @ 12:27 pmIt’s for sure a mess. But I’ve seen messes before and in situations where they turn out well there’s often a few common threads.
1. A leader identifies it as a problem, takes ownership, and commits to fixing it.
2. The leader lays out what the solution looks like.
3. The leader puts together a plan and starts executing it.
Doesn’t have to be the highest ranking person in the situation. Whoever is leading may delegate much of the work. In this case the leader could be Trump, some who works for him, and congress critter or someone else. I think what Moore was asking for was a leader to step up and try to fix this. I haven’t seen anyone do that yet. I’ve seen lots of people who could lead on this identify the problem. But I haven’t seen anyone take ownership and commit to fixing it. They all seem to be more focused on political gains and avoiding risks of failure.
The lack of effective leadership on this is really disappointing.
Time123 (69b2fc) — 6/26/2019 @ 12:46 pmObviously we must–to be decent–become emotionally charged at a predicament others have caused by coming here illegally. Its our fault–or our obligation.
Then decency requires that instead of sending people here illegally back across the border, or encouraging them to go back, we provide comfortable living spaces, pending the birth of children who will be US citizens. Such will be the case as we wait for the “backlogged” courts to figure out the asylum/refugee etc. claims.
Then again because we’re decent, we extend benefits to the kids (via their parents), and route them to a US city where already pressed taxpayers, (to be decent), must absorb their housing, welfare, food and medical care, along with adding them to already crowded schools.
Some see this as perfectly fine: it just goes on and on and no decent person should question it.
Anyone asking why we should be making things more comfortable for people pouring over the border, and how decent this endless support system for the never ending poor from other countries might be to taxpayers, -and parents with kids in already crowded schools, etc.,- well they are obviously not decent.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (6b1442) — 6/26/2019 @ 1:11 pmImpressive strawman argument.
Well, not really.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/26/2019 @ 1:26 pmAMENDMENT XXVIII
Section 1. No person, having entered the United States or its territories in violation of the laws thereof, or having been granted and accepted asylum in the United States, after this Article was proposed by the Congress, shall be eligible for naturalization.
Section 2. Notwithstanding anything in Amendment XIV to this Constitution, the issue of any person described in Section 1, born in the United States after this Article was proposed by the Congress, shall not be a natural-born citizen, but shall be eligible for naturalization, as the law may permit, after reaching the age of eighteen years.
Section 3. Congress shall have the power blah blah blah.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/26/2019 @ 1:59 pmBeldar would like to see detainees have access to soap.
According to Mudd (#41), Beldar therefore has embraced open borders and an unlimited nanny state.
Mudd’s argument is indeed a strawman, something entirely of his own fantasies, and therefore both irrefutable and deeply boring.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/26/2019 @ 2:03 pmIn my #44, I ought to have said, “According to Mudd’s logic” rather than “According to Mudd.” I was not quoting or closely paraphrasing him, but rather applying the logic of his #41 to myself. The distinction is subtle, but I ought have maintained it.
Beldar (fa637a) — 6/26/2019 @ 2:05 pmMore on the father and daughter who died in the Rio Grande.
Their deaths are a terrible tragedy, but from what the man’s mother says, they left El Salvador for economic reasons and had no business applying for asylum here.
The story also says they only arrived in Matamoros on Sunday.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/26/2019 @ 2:21 pmDave (43),
Maybe. I’d prefer
Section 2. Notwithstanding anything in Amendment XIV to this Constitution, the issue of any person not entitled to permanent residency therein, born in the United States after this Article was proposed by the Congress, shall not be a natural-born citizen, but may be eligible for naturalization, should the law permit, after remaining continuously in the United States for a period of five (5) years.
(I don’t much care for citizenship tourism)
Kevin M (21ca15) — 6/26/2019 @ 2:34 pm@47 I’m down with that.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/26/2019 @ 2:39 pmit’s rather facile thinking:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2019/06/democrats-blame-trump-for-border-deaths-accuse-adminstration-of-deliberately-punishing-kids-to-make-a-point/
narciso (d1f714) — 6/26/2019 @ 2:43 pmI wonder, do we advertise in these countries whose people are literally dying to get here, to discourage them from coming?
It occurs to me, reading the story of the Oscar Ramirez, that:
1) The guy was 25 years old, worked in a pizzeria, and lived with his mother. The chances that he was au courant with the details of US immigration policy seems pretty slim.
2) More likely, he had a relative, or a friend of a friend, who went to the US at some time in the past and was better off for it. And he wanted the same.
3) Deciding (wrongly/foolishly) that it was worth a chance to try getting a better life for his wife and daughter, they set out not understanding the difficulties they would face. He might not have even realized that he wouldn’t be admitted until he reached the border on Sunday and were told to come back another day.
4) Or (as is common among young people) he might have had unrealistic expectations that he could somehow “beat the odds”.
Regardless, it seems like an ounce of deterrence is worth a pound of cure, in this case. Maybe we are already doing it (I haven’t seen it reported, but that doesn’t prove anything), but it seems like a saturation public information campaign in these countries (“Don’t try to come here expecting to get in, because you won’t. And if you bring children and get caught, you’ll be separated from them while you’re in jail.”)
Even if we’re already doing it, we should do more. God knows, there are plenty of horror story testimonials and scary footage available to make well-intentioned but misinformed or unwise people like Ramirez think twice.
Dave (1bb933) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:06 pm#49: nk, is that not a fair interpretation in light of this administration having already put forth that harsher treatment in our custody will serve as a deterrent to migrants and refugees showing up?
TR (2c5752) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:29 pmAarg, sorry, not nk but narciso.
TR (2c5752) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:30 pm50. Dave (1bb933) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:06 pm
That;s what Obama did. (he later stopped)
And he had a little something to do with increasing the risk of death.
The only thing is, that’s not true, and they’ll find out.
By the way, if they throw away their passports, they can’t be sent back, because then there’s no proof that they are a citizen of the country that the United states proposes to send them to. They can be kept locked up but only for about six months because indefinite detention has been held to be unconstitutional. So far not too many have tried that trick, because they want to be legalized. If there was no hope, that might be tried on a big scale.
By the way others are tricked into taking heir passports with them when arrested, not ealizing that they need to have their passport with them in order to be deported. Maybe the law is abit more complicated, in that their country could issue them a new passport if they agree the person is acitizen and the pperson co-operates. But not that much
Advertise that you run the risk of death and prove it and you will cut down the numbers somewhat.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:30 pmIt’s twisted logic to asy as Trump does that open borders creates the risk of death. Closed borders does that.
You might be able to intimidate people sometimes and not have to have very many deaths but deterrence can break down so, if scaring people is the intention, people will have to die from time to time.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:35 pmwhatever the Unoited states is doing is nothing compared to what Germany is doing, because I think they’re paying the Turkish government to shoot at Syrian refugees crossing the Turkish border. And they’re all, or most of them, ISIS.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:36 pmThere was also an El Salvadoran man who was shot and killed because the truck he wass on ran aMexican government checkpoint.
That checkpoint was there because of Donald Trump.
Now what’s going to happen:
People have for now stopped coming, especially families, as they wait to see if this all blows over or the smugglers find new routes or bribe people.
Sammy Finkelman (4eddd7) — 6/26/2019 @ 3:46 pm42: we have some 15 million people in Cal today that speak a language other than English at home; now we have presidential debates with candidates speaking in Spanish. Some straw man.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (6b1442) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:00 pm44: How nice! Soap!
And to use soap, water, and of course, food, medical care, showers, cots–no beds; a place to stay; lawyers to provide assistance; and benefits for the US citizen children… I guess its more than soap! Or were you planning to give each a bar of soap on the way back across the border? If not, then its totally disingenuous to claim that ‘all you want to do’–unlike the heathen– is give the kids soap.
We all know where this “its only some water in the desert,” and “its only some food,” approach has goes. 15 million people in Calif who speak a different language at home. More pouring into the US. Questions in some schools about whether we can talk about the 4th of July w/o being ‘insensitive.’ LA country spending 1b a year in benefits to US citizen anchor babies. And generations of voters who see government as a provider.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (6b1442) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:15 pmhttps://www.mdjonline.com/opinion/ann-coulter-the-swamp-in-action/article_247f1c18-987c-11e9-81fe-4b4f02c9c519.html
narciso (d1f714) — 6/27/2019 @ 1:45 pmRe #33 – Correction. Where I wrote in 4th para. “Not to mention our $22+Trillion budget deficit …” Budget deficit – it should have been National debt.
Further, re the 1st and 2nd paragraphs:
“No matter where one falls on the immigration spectrum, it would seem at the very least, that this is the correct initial reaction. …”
“Initial reaction? Where the hell have you been?” – I add the following.
Obama June 27, 2014.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnSQSiFnpEs
Stephanopoulos: “You mentioned immigration, there is a humanitarian crisis at the border. …”
Obama: “… Don’t send your children unaccompanied … Do not send your children to the border. If they do make it they will be sent back. More importantly, they may not make it.”
__________________
CBS News June 27, 2014: Obama to Central American – “Do not send your children to the border”
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-to-central-americans-do-not-send-your-children-to-the-border/
__________________
AFP News Agency July 10, 2014: Obama to Central Americans: “Don’t send kids to the border”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4QniWO4_Yw
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Inforwars.com June 28, 2019: Tears of a clown – AOC finally finds a concentration camp!
https://www.infowars.com/the-tears-of-a-clown/
___________________
Initial reaction? No. Be an adult. Don’t react. Stop. Think. Reason. Stop falling for the fake news and giving into its intended false emotion initial reactions. Again, be an adult. Stop. Think. And apply reason to achieve the proper reaction, the proper thinking,the proper result. GLZ.
Gary L. Zerman (ab669e) — 6/28/2019 @ 4:27 pm