Patterico's Pontifications

12/9/2017

The Shooting of Daniel Shaver: The Law Enforcement Perspective

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 4:30 pm

On Thursday, an Arizona jury acquitted Philip Brailsford of murder and manslaughter in the fatal shooting of Daniel Shaver. The online reaction has been that it was a “murder” and that the jury was insanely wrong.

I’m not so sure about that. Maybe that view is right. Maybe it’s not.

Many pieces ask you to make your initial judgment by showing you a video with very little additional context. I’m going to take a little different approach, and give you the context that the police officers were facing before I give you the video to watch.

The shooting occurred after police were called to a Mesa La Quinta Inn & Suites on a report of a person pointing a gun out a fifth-floor window. A couple in a hotel hot tub told staff they saw a silhouette with a gun pointed toward a nearby highway.

. . . .

Police later learned Shaver had been showing his pellet gun to Monique Portillo and Luis Nuñez, two hotel guests Shaver had met earlier that night. Both testified Shaver had been playing with the pellet gun near his hotel room window.

Shaver turned out to be unarmed when he was shot, but police did find the pellet gun inside the room.

Before I show you the events leading up to the shooting and the shooting, I am going to show you the very end of the video after the shooting — because it gives you some perspective on where the hotel room was:

You can see that the room is just beyond where they had Shaver initially lie on the ground. If they simply walked up to him and cuffed him, as many have suggested they should have done, they would have spent extra time in front of the door, where a gunman with a long gun could be just behind the door, waiting to shoot them.

Now, with that context, let’s watch the video. I warn you: it’s disturbing. Not just because of the shooting that happens at the end, but also because of the angry, contradictory, absurd commands barked by a sergeant at the scene. Critical to understand is that the shooter is not the person barking the idiotic commands. The voice you hear is that of a sergeant — the supervisor of the shooter. Here’s the video:

I am going to sum up my position on this in a nutshell, right up front, so there can be no mistake about what my views are:

1) I believe this was an avoidable tragedy.

2) The police officer’s instructions were absurd and contradictory.

3) The video is infuriating because much of the time it’s impossible to guess what the cop actually wanted Shaver to do.

4) Shaver’s reaching for his waist was a fatal mistake.

5) The cop who shot Shaver was probably really scared.

6) Whether this shooting was criminal or justified is a decision for a jury that has all the evidence. You can’t make up your mind based on this single video. You need more facts.

It’s points 4 through 6 that upset people the most, and therefore those are the points I plan to spend the most time on. That’s not because those points are the most important to me. It’s because I think I can offer the most value by discussing those points. You probably already feel points 1 through 3 in your gut. It doesn’t take a lot of discussion to explain these points, but I’ll start with them anyway.

One cannot “crawl” with their hands in the air. One cannot easily crawl with their legs crossed. It is impossible to “crawl” with your legs crossed and with your hands in the air. These have to be some of the stupidest instructions ever given to a suspect.

When a cop 1) screams orders at you at gunpoint, 2) screams also that you that you will be killed if you make a mistake, and then 3) gives you contradictory instructions, what in the hell are you supposed to do? Not everyone handles that situation as calmly as the old man did in Raising Arizona:

A good part of the reason people are upset by this is that they put themselves in Shaver’s position, and they imagine an angry cop barking contradictory orders at them . . . and they wonder: what would I have done in that situation? What would I have done when some cretin screams at me to crawl with my legs crossed? What would I have done when someone told me to crawl with my legs crossed with my hands in the air?

It’s insane. These ridiculous orders, and the cop’s tone, escalated the situation and made the shooting a thousand times more likely. The sergeant has no business being a police officer.

OK, now here comes the part you aren’t going to like. Shaver made a mistake putting his hands behind him without being instructed to. Thirty seconds later, he made a fatal mistake reaching for his waistband when he had been specifically told not to do that.

So, was it murder or was it justified? I don’t know. I didn’t see the trial. To me, the video alone is not necessarily enough. You need full context — the kind of context that you lack, because you did not see the trial.

You did see him reaching for his waistband, right?

I’ll take you through those actions in detail at the end of the post, with clips and screenshots of the orders Shaver was given and how he defies them. But first, let’s get some more context.

IMPORTANT NOTE THAT MANY WILL IGNORE: Please don’t tell me that I am “excusing” or “justifying” the shooting in the following discussion. It’s possible that a rational jury could find the shooter guilty of manslaughter or murder. That is not something I would say if I were “excusing” or “justifying” the shooting. I know that people love to get upset about things on the Internet and then unload on someone who they believe disagrees with them — and this is even more satisfying and cathartic if you can convince yourself that your opponent is simply evil. But it would be dishonest in the extreme to tell me that I am justifying this when I have repeatedly explained that I am not. So if you want to feel that frisson of self-righteousness that accompanies the act of telling off a jerk, find someone else who has no doubts about, or criticism of, the cops’ actions here. I do have doubts about, and criticism of, the police actions here.

A TRULY BAD OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTING

I’d like to start out the discussion with an example of an undeniably bad officer-involved shooting, by way of contrast. Here’s a video from 2016 in which an officer responded to a call of a man harassing people outside a convenience store. The officer sees a man fitting the description — or so he thinks — and confronts the man, who seems calm but continues to go about his business. Well, of course! He’s minding his own business talking on the phone! Why should he have to stop what he is doing just because some officer is yelling at him? The officer starts to freak out about the fact that the guy won’t take his hands out of his pockets, even though nobody ever said the man at the convenience store was armed. What happened next is an object lesson in how police officers get carried away at the slightest “false move.” There is about a minute of video here, and I warn you that it ends in a shooting:

OK, my description of the video was deliberately misleading — for a reason. I wanted you to view the video using the assumption that the man being stopped by the police officer was non-aggressive — so that you could actually feel, emotionally, in your gut, how someone who doesn’t appear to be presenting much of a threat can turn deadly in a heartbeat. Every police officer knows this, which is why their jobs are so dangerous and why their wives worry each time they leave the house that they might never come back.

There are plenty of other videos you can find online where people look normal one second and are shooting the next. So when cops think you may have a gun they do not want you to reach for your waistband — and if you do, it’s not good.

BUT HE WAS SOBBING! LOOK AT THE CONTEXT!

I have also had people tell me that the fact that the guy seemed “compliant” means he was not a threat. That we have to look at the context.

I’m happy to look at the context. That’s why I started the post by looking at what the officers believed they were responding to: a report of a man pointing a long gun out a hotel room window towards a highway.

Obviously he didn’t have a long gun on him. But that means another man with a long gun might still be in the hotel room. That is almost surely why they didn’t just walk up to him and cuff him. They wanted to minimize the time of exposure to a possible gunman behind the door.

Also, someone pointing a long gun out of a window in a hotel room might also have a handgun in his waistband.

Context can change. If you want to talk context, here’s a video of a traffic stop in which the motorist is dancing and cursing. Watch about 23 seconds, ending with the motorist dancing:

Ha ha! What a funny old man! It’s so comically absurd that it almost looks like one of those parody videos where the cop is doing field sobriety tests:

But the dancing motorist in the non-parody video turns out to be aggressive, showing you that context matters, but context can change on a dime. If you have a couple of minutes, watch the rest of the video with the dancing motorist. What happens is no parody. It was very real:

For better and for worse, that video is shown in police academies across the country as an example of what can happen to a police officer when he hesitates:

Experts and activists keep calling for de-escalation training, less-lethal force, anything to stop an officer’s bullet from taking flight. But a beanbag shotgun won’t fit on a utility belt. A baton has very short range. Pepper spray can blow back in your face. A Taser might not work on a suspect in a heavy coat. And in a nation with nearly as many guns as people, the Kyle Dinkheller video tells officers there could be a time when pulling the trigger is the only way.

“It has saved innumerable officers’ lives, in my opinion,” Ron Barber said.

Kirk Dinkheller believes the same thing, which is why he regularly visits police academies to expound on its lessons. He says several officers have approached him over the years and told him the video saved their lives. Its full effect is impossible to calculate. Many thousands of officers have seen it, and they’ve been in innumerable tense situations, and perhaps in some of those situations the video has made them a little quicker to fire. Is this a good thing? That is also unknowable. The line between firing too slowly and too quickly can be very, very thin.

Again, I am not comparing this man’s actions to Shaver’s actions. Instead, my point is that a dancing man turned violent. If the police officer had fired at the guy when he went back towards his truck, people would have said: how could he shoot a guy who just moments before was dancing around like a clown? In context, isn’t he obviously comical and harmless? Maybe. But context can change.

ONE VIDEO FROM ONE CAMERA ANGLE CAN BE MISLEADING

Another issue is that a single camera angle does not always tell the whole story. Here is a 26-second clip of police shooting an unarmed man in the back. It’s all caught on video:

This really happened. The man was unarmed. He was shot in the back. What was the cops’ lame story this time, to justify their cold-blooded execution? Get this: the cops said that the man had a cell phone. They gave him orders to drop it and he refused, instead repeatedly pointing it at them like it was a gun. Why, they had to shoot him!

That’s obviously a load of horse excrement, right? First of all, who points a cell phone at cops like it’s a gun? Second of all, it’s all caught on tape. You just watched the cold-blooded, first-degree-murder execution of an unarmed man. The cops aren’t just murderers; they’re liars, undone by the cold hard evidence of the dashcam.

There is no excuse for this, right? Verdict of Twitter court: convicted! Next case!

Except . . . there is a second angle:

How about that? Turns out he was indeed pointing the cell phone precisely like a gun, as you can see in this screenshot from 11 seconds into angle 2:

Angle 2 Screenshot 1

There is a police officer off to the left when he points the phone. I’m shocked that they didn’t shoot him then and there, but it probably has to do with reaction time and the fact that he stops pointing it. At that point, though, running through the officers’ minds as the man walks away are two things: 1) this guy has a gun and 2) he just pointed this gun at an officer. So when he suddenly spins around and seems to point it again, as he does here, 17 seconds in to camera angle 2, that’s all it takes to get them to open fire:

Angle 2 Screenshot 2

Again, due to reaction time, they’re not firing until he has again turned his back. Things don’t happen instantaneously in real life. You have to process visual cues and react.

Again: my point here is not to compare the actions of this individual to Shaver’s actions, or to suggest the facts are comparable in any way. The only reason I am presenting this example is to illustrate — I think pretty effectively — that a single camera angle doesn’t always show everything.

But what more do we need to know from the Shaver video? You could say the same thing about what you just watched, after watching the first video. What else did we need to see there? We didn’t know until we saw the second video, did we? The point is, one angle doesn’t always show everything.

LOOKING CLOSELY AT THE SHAVER SHOOTING

And now, with that context, let’s look at the critical moments when Shaver defies instructions and makes suspicious motions with his hands. Watch this 11-second clip from about 30 seconds or so before the shooting. Shaver puts his hands behind his back — where a gun could be in his waistband:

Nobody shoots him at that moment, but the cop explicitly tells him that if he does that again, he will be shot. He repeats the warning in this six-second clip:

COP: Your hands go into the small of your back or down, we are going to shoot you. Do you understand me?

SHAVER: Yes, sir.

And then Shaver reaches towards his right waistband in this two-second clip:

Here are a couple of screenshots:

Shaver reaching for his waistband:

Shaver Reaches for Waistband 1

And here he is coming down from the reach:

Shaver Reaches for Waistband 2

Is there anything in his hand? We know now that there wasn’t, but look closely. Are you willing to risk your life that this guy who just defied instructions not to reach for his back didn’t just get a gun?

Watch those two seconds again:

A detective testified during the trial that Shaver may have been going to pull up his pants. That is possible — and if that’s what happened, it compounds the tragedy. But a police officer who sees a man going for his waistband in contravention of lawful instructions has a difficult decision to make. I’m guessing the jury understood that.

THE LAW

In Twitter Court, the unwritten instructions for determining whether a killing is murder or manslaughter go a little something like this:

First-degree murder: killing that makes you super-upset

Second-degree murder: killing that makes you pretty damned upset

Manslaughter: killing that upsets you, but not as much as other killings do

In real court, a jury is read actual instructions that come from actual statutes passed by legislatures.

What is the law of murder in Arizona? I don’t know, and I’m not going to try to give a definitive view based on quick Internet research. My recent experience with people trying to explain the law of murder in California to me, based on quick visits to Web sites run by criminal defense attorneys, reinforces my belief that it’s easy to reach a false belief that you understand the law based on Googling it. I’m happy to discuss how California law would treat a case like this, but I can’t tell you how the Arizona jury was instructed, because every state’s law is potentially different.

In California the decision between murder and manslaughter is based on whether there was actual honest fear. The decision between manslaughter and an acquittal is based on whether that fear is reasonable. Someone who kills out of an honest belief that they needed to use deadly force is not guilty of murder. But if their response was unreasonable, they are guilty of manslaughter. It’s called “imperfect self-defense.” If their response was reasonable, it’s a not guilty.

I’m not sure if this is the law in Arizona. The doctrine of “imperfect self-defense” might not be available in Arizona. Apparently Brailsford was also acquitted of something called “reckless manslaughter.” How an honest but unreasonable use of force is analyzed under these laws, I am not even going to try to guess.

APPLYING THE LAW: SEEING IT FROM THE OFFICERS’ POINT OF VIEW

So was the jury wrong? I don’t know, because I didn’t see the trial. Based on what I know, I think the range of reasonable outcomes included a not guilty.

You’re probably recoiling against that conclusion. I think part of the reason might be that the jury explicitly has to look at the point of view of the shooter to make its decision. And that is a very difficult for most people to do in this case. Judging from my interactions with people on Twitter last night, any attempt I made to get people to understand the situation from the perspective of police officers was quickly turned around to viewing it from Shaver’s point of view.

I can see this situation from both sides.

I can imagine what it’s like to be in the position of the guy who was shot. I speak from some personal experience here, as someone who has had police officers point loaded guns at me twice — once as a teenager and once as an adult. (I did nothing wrong either time and each resulted from a misunderstanding that was quickly resolved.) I know what it’s like to be in that situation, and I can easily put myself in the decedent’s situation. I think just about anyone who watched the video can easily empathize with the plight of the decedent, desperately trying to follow the contradictory barked orders of an angry police officer.

I get it. From Shaver’s point of view, he is trying his best to follow absurd contradictory instructions.

But I can also put myself in the shoes of the police officers. And from the officers’ point of view, he reaches towards his back twice. It’s not five minutes of pure compliance, as I have seen many argue on Twitter. They’re responding to a call of a man with a gun. The guy has already reached towards his back once. He’s been told not to do it again.

If you honestly think this police officer shot while feeling no fear, it’s murder. Many point to the fact that the shooting officer etched “You’re f*cked” into the dust cover of the weapon that was used — a fact the jury was not allowed to hear. But even with that fact, the notion that the cop shot for the fun of it just seems like a wacky conclusion to me. The woman was not shot, and Shaver wasn’t shot until he reached for his waist..

Brailsford may have been too quick on the trigger. He may have acted unreasonably. But I think it’s ridiculous to believe that he shot a man on video for giggles.

So it comes down to a judgment whether the force was reasonable. The jury decided it was. As someone who did not see the trial, I can’t say for sure they were wrong.

Keep in mind: this shooting happened in 2016, long before Stephen Paddock opened fire from a Mandalay Bay hotel room, killing 58 people and wounding 546. But the jurors who heard this case — who heard that the cops were responding to a report of a man pointing a long gun out a hotel window — those jurors knew about Stephen Paddock.

Although the Vegas shooting had not happened yet, others had. And such shootings were on the cops’ mind. One police officer who didn’t shoot because he did not perceive an imminent threat said as much in the trial:

Mesa Police officer Brian Elmore testified Tuesday in a former colleague’s murder trial that he didn’t shoot at an unarmed Texas man because he didn’t see an imminent threat.

. . . .

At a time when active shooters situations have become more common, such tragedies were in Elmore’s mind when he responded to the call, the officer testified.

“I did think about some high-profile situations going on around the country,” he told the jury.

And in a devastating answer for the prosecution, he said he might have fired had he been in Brailsford’s position:

Still, he said, he didn’t shoot because he didn’t see the same threat as Brailsford, who was standing on the left side of Shaver several feet away when officers encountered him.

Piccarreta asked Elmore if he had been standing where Brailsford was standing, would he have shot Shaver.

“It’s possible,” Elmore responded.

In summary, the tactics here were terrible. The instructions were absurd and confusing. The sergeant who barked out the instructions probably created the atmosphere that made the tragedy possible.

But Shaver should never, ever have reached for his waistband. That action probably caused a genuine fear on the part of the police officer who shot him. Might a jury find that fear, and his actions in response, reasonable? Apparently they did. Was that verdict necessarily irrational? I can’t say for sure that it was.

One final thought: thank God Shaver was white, huh? Had he been black, there would be marches and riots. People might die as a result. If this is truly the worst police shooting people have ever seen, let’s remember that it happened to a white guy, and not assume that every police shooting is motivated by race.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

Comments (296)

296 Responses to “The Shooting of Daniel Shaver: The Law Enforcement Perspective”

Ding.

This position was not popular on Twitter. Then again, because of the nature of Twitter, it was easier to misread my position.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/9/2017 @ 4:40 pm
Patterico, thank you for taking the time to write all of this out.

When I first saw the video, I had quite a different impression.

And I think that this is the “new normal”; most people only read headlines or watch short video snippets. It’s everywhere in our society; I call it “bumpersticker thinking,” since it seems to be all slogans and such.

Many years ago, when I was visiting LA, I had locked myself out of my brother’s apartment while he was out of town. So I checked into a cheap motel, paying in cash, with no luggage. Little did I know someone with my basic description had robbed a bank and seemed not to have run.

So the next morning, at 6:30 AM, there was a hammering at the door. I was in the shower. I put a towel around myself, and opened the door—looking down the barrel of three service pistols wielded by very worried officers.

I said “Do you mind if I only raise one hand?” since my towel was being held by a hand. I didn’t mean to be clever; it just came out of my mouth.

The center officer smiled and put away his gun. The other two did not.

I sat on the bad at their direction while they tossed the room and asked me questions.

My late father was a firefighter, and he had talked with me a LOT about dealing with police officers. I guess I was prepared.

So nothing bad happened. But it obviously could have.

Again, Patterico, thank you for this essay. I also hope for once there is a thread here that doesn’t have commenters use that super crude “tw&t” word, but it seems like too much to hope for these days.

Appreciate your post.
Simon Jester (09026f) — 12/9/2017 @ 4:51 pm
Thank you, Patterico, for a thorough treatment. Let the bad-faith arguments begin.
felipe (023cc9) — 12/9/2017 @ 4:57 pm
Thanks, Simon. Good story.

Thank you, Patterico, for a thorough treatment. Let the bad-faith arguments begin.

LOL
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:02 pm
People get the police they deserve. I hope all those jurors find themselves in Shaver’s situation some time in their lives, and sooner rather than later.

Not that they’re entirely to blame. I am certain that the Blue Wall did its best to give the prosecution nothing to work with; and that the prosecutors themselves were as desirous of winning this case as they were about losing the cooperation of the police in all their future cases.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:02 pm
Thanks Patterico, you made me re-examine my take on this.
Ipso Fatso (783a86) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:10 pm
If the suspect had been a 92 year old black grandmother from Atlanta I’m sure Patterico wouldn’t be contorting himself to justify police murder. Oh wait…. Patterico is an equal opportunity POLICE MURDER APOLOGIST. White, black, young, old…it doesn’t matter to Patterico. He’s really quite progressive that way.

However, if you are an Oklahoman pharmacist who was just robbed at gunpoint less than 60 seconds ago and you shoot and kill the person who was just pointing a gun at you, well YOU’RE A MURDERER AND YOU NEED TO GO TO JAIL FOR LIFE.

Patterico bends over backwards to defend the police. But the rest of us plebians? No such luck.
UrsaMajor (e68869) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:15 pm
Wow. Great piece, P.

Can’t imagine why Shaver would be fumble-stunned and scared sh-tless trying to follow shouted directions being barked at him by an amped-up copper aiming an assault weapon at him in a hotel hallway. Easy to review this in calm hindsight w/video, frame by frame, but a guess would be Shaver was simply reaching to pull up his shorts which may have been falling down as he crawled– a natural enough move we all might do w/o thinking twice but in this case clearly fatal.

Years ago had a rookie LA cop being trained w/a partner out near LAX pull his weapon on me over drifting through a stop sign to see down around a ‘T’ intersection. The guy was fresh ex-military w/his language, amped up– and scared the crap out of me along w/pedestrians walking on the sidewalk so I simply froze. His experienced partner quickly cooled him down, he holstered his weapon and the partner apologized but it’s easy to see how these incidents can spiral out of control fast.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:16 pm
I used to work with a cop wanna be. He was a big cornfed walking stereotype of what you imagine a Southern Deputy would look like. He got his wish and left us to go to the state academy.

A certain time later we heard that he was hired on to the local SD. No less than two weeks after that someone had the bright idea to stack him on the door for a no knock drug warrant service.

The official story was he tripped coming in the door and shot a napping mother of three in the head. She was on a couch in the LR. I don’t know if they stripped his LEO certification but he’s definitely not working in that county anymore.

Another guy I worked with was doing ride alongs with a local PD until he went to the academy. He came in to work one evening and changed clothes in the bathroom. I went in later and noticed his PD shirt, pants and gunbelt complete with loaded gun and spare mags just sitting on the water heater. I told the supervisor and her dumb a$$ asked,”Do you think I should ask him to take it (gun etc) home?” SMH

Not all cops are bad. Just enough.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:20 pm
if this post molly-coddled-comfirted Mr. Jester’s trubbl’d soul twas all wirth it times a thoosand

god bless ye all everyone and the merriest of christmases
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:23 pm
I forgot to mention that sotto voce he indignantly confided in me that someone had ratted him out without knowing it was me.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:23 pm
It comforted me in a strange way. It made the honey boos boos and their stories of forty years ago less significant than a hangnail. Another person’s, whom I’ve never met, hangnail.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:26 pm
It seems to me both the girl and Shaver were scared and confused. The barking of the sergeant made matters terrifying to these kids. I personally would wait until I actually had sight of a weapon in the hand of a hostile. Especially if I had the drop on the guy, with a rifle, only ten feet away. But that’s me.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:26 pm
the girl and Shaver were scared and confused

i met a girlfriend a triscuit she said a triscuit a biscuit!

(ice cream soda pop vanilla on the top)

god love the police of America this christmas they only kill you (shoot you dead) as you crawl sobbing down the hall praise Jesus
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:32 pm
pellet gun fatality

best new band name of 2018!

(damn you president Trump)
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:34 pm
Excellent examination and of the shooting and the dangers of basing one’s conclusion on a single video, Patrick. If there is one thing I’ve learned from your posts that have examined police shootings (and other shootings), it’s that things aren’t always as they first appear – no matter how gut wrenching – especially if necessary the context hasn’t been provided. Thanks so much for this. For example, with Kate Steinle, there was more to it than just “he murdered her”. While it’s hard to comprehend and work through the emotions of these horrible events, if we aren’t willing to, that puts everyone at potential risk of having wrong conclusions drawn about them if they are become caught up in some chaotic event that costs a life. I want whoever is making those determinations to take the time to deliberately and throughly examine every little bit of video, information, context, the requirement and standards of applicable law and leave no stone unturned. Woe to all of us if an extreme emotional reaction determines a man’s fate.
Dana (023079) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:44 pm
yes yes Dana

and if we can rationalize Daniel Shaver’s wholly unnecessary death

truly the most glorious of abortions are but a gnat on the ass of what we might have once called a moral qualm

you know

as a society
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:50 pm
Woe to all of us if an extreme emotional reaction determines a man’s fate.

Does that apply to Roy Moore?
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:51 pm
However, if you are an Oklahoman pharmacist who was just robbed at gunpoint less than 60 seconds ago and you shoot and kill the person who was just pointing a gun at you, well YOU’RE A MURDERER AND YOU NEED TO GO TO JAIL FOR LIFE.

I don’t think that guy should have caught a first degree murder charge. However, he doesn’t get a pass on self defense at a certain point. Hypothetically I would have vigorously checked him for a carotid pulse with both hands. Or do the “live, dammit live” chest pounding a la Hawkeye Pierce.

Patterico bends over backwards to defend the police. But the rest of us plebians? No such luck.
UrsaMajor (e68869) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:15 pm

More of a case by case basis. This case shows a lack of leadership. Like, are they promoting people to sergeant who shouldn’t be? This particular sergeant was ratcheting up the anxiety of the suspect and his subordinates.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:52 pm
The funny ha ha aspect of the OK Pharmacy case is the guy who ran off and left his buddy caught felony murder and wants the pharmacist to testify for him.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:00 pm
I’m sure that Daniel Shaver is a lot less dead because he was shot by officers of the law, sworn to serve and protect, instead of a couple of drug cartel hitmen who had mistaken him for a competitor or a dealer who had ripped them off.

Yeah, the cop was scared. Philando Castille’s killer said he was scared. Justine Damond’s killers say they were scared. All that says is that cowards should not have badges and guns.

What capital offenses were Daniel Shaver, Philando Castille and Justine Damond guilty of? That is the question.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:01 pm
Woe to all of us if an extreme emotional reaction determines a man’s fate.

The irony. What, if not extreme emotional reaction, determined Daniel Shaver’s fate?
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:04 pm
It comforted me in a strange way. It made the honey boos boos and their stories of forty years ago less significant than a hangnail. Another person’s, whom I’ve never met, hangnail.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:26 pm

Roy Moore once signed a girl’s yearbook for just snoring too loud.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:08 pm
On my construction projects I like to have only one very experienced person giving directions to crane or heavy equipment operators.
Otherwise everyone is yelling, pointing, waving etc, generally confusing everyone.
My leader is taught to shut it all down until order is restored.

One of my pet peeves with cops is that everyone gets to yell in contradictory fashion, but its still my fault if I get shot
steveg (e8c34d) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:09 pm
Mr. Major isn’t a drive-by just fyi he’s a longtime commenter stalwart and true

like Mr. daleyrocks and elissa and of course also Mr. milhouse (who i rather suspect is now dead dead dead not unlike Mr. Shaver)

the Macy’s windows this year are definitely better at night… but like last year again they don’t tell anything like a story

this year the highlight really is…

if you go round the side to the north…

they have some bits from historical windows from the past

let’s not skip over this though – they do have Chicago windows this year – windows custom-made for Chicago (for awhile Chicago Macy’s been getting the previous year’s NYC Macy’s windows – ofttimes maladroitly adapted)
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:16 pm
@13. Your perspective sounds like a good one, Hoagie; experienced.

Don’t think this copper shot out of ‘fear’– that’s an emotion; more likely adrenaline. And his own self-doubt is revealing: the ‘you’re f-cked’ etch in the weapon dust cover– the fact the jury was not allowed to hear is a tell. The common thread is, of course, guns. And as that goes, this was just another day of gun play in the good ol’USA. And Putin smiles…
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:18 pm
The U.S. exports about 1/3 of its recycling, and nearly half goes to China. For decades, China has used recyclables from around the world to supply its manufacturing boom. But this summer it declared that this “foreign waste” includes too many other nonrecyclable materials that are “dirty,” even “hazardous.” In a filing with the WTO the country listed 24 kinds of solid wastes it would ban “to protect China’s environmental interests and people’s health.”

this is hilarious

and now the hippies think the solution is to get robots to do recycling-bale purification (to Chineser standards) of the sort that non-robotic Americans just won’t do
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:23 pm
Everybody knows that adrenaline is produced by a calm, rational assessment of the situation and not fear or anger. Right?
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:27 pm
Like jean De meneziere, in the London tube in 2005, clearly there want intent to murder but it was a bad scene.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:28 pm
What are you doing, happyfeet? With your last two comments, I mean.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:30 pm
Regarding police training I suspect it overemphasizes force protection. It is part of a police officer’s job to risk their life to protect civilians. This includes not shooting people until you are pretty sure there is a threat. So I am doubtful that police training should show videos that encourage quick decisions to shoot at all but at least any such videos should be balanced with videos that discourage a quick decision to shoot (by showing cases where innocent civilians get shot unnecessarily).

On the other hand I think a mostly non-punitive approach is a better way of improving officer performance. There seems to a general idea that a police shooting must either be a serious criminal offense or totally okay. But a lot are just mistakes perhaps bad enough mistakes that those involved shouldn’t be allowed to remain police officers but not criminal offenses.
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:32 pm
Woe to all of us if an extreme emotional reaction determines a man’s fate.

Does that apply to Roy Moore?

Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/9/2017 @ 5:51 pm

Of course.
Dana (023079) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:34 pm
However, and I hate stating the obvious, the situations are not remotely similar. And you know it. And a jab like that is beneath you.
Dana (023079) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:35 pm
Nk, I think you misunderstood my comment, or I worded it poorly.
Dana (023079) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:36 pm
I had thought the Texas Field Sobriety vid was from Reno 911.
harkin (bd8145) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:38 pm
Yeah, nk– holding a guy crawling on his hands and knees at gunpoint w/your assault weapon is so scary… for the guy on the floor, but clearly angering for the barking copper called away from his donuts and java. So angering, in fact, he etched ‘you’re f-cked’ into his weapon’s d/c. Hoagies’ mature perspective @13 reads w/experience and sound judgement.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:38 pm
The cop barking commands apparently isn’t sufficiency experienced or emotionally stable enough to be in charge of the operation. He was in over his head, the situation called for calm and deliberate leadership and he too often delivered contradictory commands in loud, almost hysterical, screams. His actions elevated the immediate danger to everyone involved and exacerbated the context for deadly consequences.

The cops seemed surprised and frightened at the abrupt exit from the room by Monique Portillo and Daniel Shaver and were caught obviously unprepared. Their loud, confused, and poorly coordinated responses frightened Portillo and especially Shaver who seemingly was willing to comply immediately but was so frightened he reacted prematurely and often incorrectly.

If you have police experience or just watch ‘Cops’ on TV you see these errors in complience are common: police will instruct a subject held at gin point to put his hands on the top of his head and interlace his fingers, but the subject will hold out his hands in front expecting to be handcuffed. It or something similar happens so often a trained officer should expect frightened subjects to experience a disconnect between what they’re being instructed to do and what they anticipate they’re supposed to do.
ropelight (5f5ef1) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:38 pm
Possibly my wording was poor, Dana. I understood you to mean that Brailsford should not be convicted simply because people are angry that Daniel Shaver was killed. I meant the irony that Brailsford did not extend such due process to Shaver.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:44 pm
The sergeant barking out commands clearly escalated and worsened an already tense situation. It seems like someone more in control and in command of themselves may have actually been able to defuse the situation, considering that both the man and woman were making efforts to comply.
Dana (023079) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:45 pm
I think Hoagie was right on the money, too. What does that have to do with what you said?
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:46 pm
‘But Shaver should never, ever have reached for his waistband.’

And you’re sure in the same situation you wouldn’t have done that, right? Give me a break. You have no idea what Shaver was going through. He was so confused he had no idea what to do and the officers were solely responsible for that confusion.

The officer confused him to the point where Shaver was almost guaranteed to do something that would create fear in the officer. No reasonable man would act like that cop. Ever. Especially someone supposedly trained for this stuff. But many reasonable men would act like Shaver.

If a cop ran into a maternity ward and start killing people for kicks, Patterico would find some way to defend him – (he was scared of ghosts or something) and then wonder why people despise lawyers so much. Sheesh. I can’t believe I had to write this.
Steve D (9e97f6) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:54 pm
same pasta different sauce

(if you used the exact same pasta)
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:57 pm
A standing Brailsford w/weapon aimed 10 feet away fired five shots at a crawling Shaver in under two seconds killing him apparently instantly. Depending on whatever the law is in AZ, if a juror, I’d have voted for some available degree of manslaughter.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:00 pm
The sergeant barking out commands clearly escalated and worsened an already tense situation. It seems like someone more in control and in command of themselves may have actually been able to defuse the situation, considering that both the man and woman were making efforts to comply.

Yep. If the victim had simply ignored all the contradictory commands and continued to lay face-down with his hands locked above his head in a non-threatening way, he probably would have survived.
Dave (445e97) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:01 pm
yes yes just lay down and ignore the inane barkings of the ignorant arizona popo

this is how we live a long and prosperous life in failmerica anymore
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:14 pm
You didn’t have to write that, Steve E, and yet you did.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:16 pm
who’s not curious though about how this all woulda played out if daniel shaver had been a black man?

oh.

looks like mostly everyone but Mr. UrsaMajor i guess

still it’s a good question
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:18 pm
Shiela E didn’t have to write about how “boys with small talk and small minds really don’t impress me in bed” but she did and we all haff to lib wit it
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:20 pm
Yes, I think that he had been a civilian, he would have been convicted of at least voluntary manslaughter (failed self defense) with a firearm and facing a mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years.

By the way, a lot has been made on the internet of the “You’re f***ed” etched on the inside of the ejection port cover. It matters that it’s on the inside. To me, it would mean that I, the shooter, was “f***ed” because I had a jam or other malfunction. Who knows what it meant to Brailsford? Should the judge have let it in and let Brailsford explain it to the jury? It’s a judgment call, but if I were the judge, only if the prosecution was trying to prove premeditation, course of conduct or modus operandi. Not that the cop was not only a coward but also a clown.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:22 pm
if you shoot him you’ll probably get away with it, you being a cop and all
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:25 pm
@40. OIC what you mean, nk. We more or less agree. Just don’t believe he was ‘scared’ or ‘angry’– just not thinking clearly tipped by his erratic commands culminating in shooting the victim on the hallway floor with five shots in under two seconds killing him. One- maybe two to wound would suffice, no? And the post event, the ‘youre f–ked’ etch in the d/c. To me, that appears to be some ‘caliber’ of manslaughter. Experienced guys w/Hoagie perspective perhaps should be part of these teams. But the whole mess always comes back to guns– one guy was showing one off; the other guy used one on the job– one life needlessly lost the other stigmatized for life.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:26 pm
I watched it yesterday, when it was posted elsewhere. Sure seemed like the police were over-reacting and out of line, but i’m not in law enforcement. I shudder to think what would happen to a 13 year old boy these days if he were to walk down the street of his neighborhood with his pellet rifle in hand, heading to the orange groves to do some hunting, like I used to do back in the day during the summertime.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:30 pm
Well it was prescient, his father had been a cop for 19 years, but like Josh Hartnett in Hollywood homicide (where did he go) he wanted to be an actor.
narciso (4346c7) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:32 pm
Idiotic commands from an hysterical officer.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:34 pm
@52- Back in the day, Haiku, kids could proudly wear their Cub Scout uniforms to school with their official Cub Scout pen knife- a $9 ‘badge of honor’- clipped to their belts w/no problem and whittle fallen branches outside eating a bagged lunch. If as kid tried that today alarms would sound, a SWAT team would pounce, the school goes into lockdown and the kid would be suspended.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:40 pm
Police shootings prior to video.

https://youtu.be/e7jggCcfyjE?t=3m21s
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:42 pm
just another day of gun play in the good ol’USA. And Putin smiles…
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 6:18 pm

Does overturning The Second Amendment give Putin sad face?
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:49 pm
DCSCA, I was on the shooting team in my junior high. We carried .22 cal. single shot rifles to school in gun cases every Thursday and stacked them in the cloak room till after school when we’d go down to the “range” which was little more than a large mound at the far end of the high school football field.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:50 pm
David French jumps the shark again.
narciso (4346c7) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:51 pm
DCSCA would have made a great bullseye in freshman Archery class.
mg (60b0f7) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:57 pm
I enjoyed the Texas sobriety checkpoint video .
papertiger (c8116c) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:58 pm
If a cop ran into a maternity ward and start killing people for kicks, Patterico would find some way to defend him – (he was scared of ghosts or something) and then wonder why people despise lawyers so much. Sheesh. I can’t believe I had to write this.

As felipe said: “Let the bad-faith arguments begin”!
Patterico (b2886d) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:59 pm
My son’s a cop and we were discussing this. He has seen the training videos and is acutely aware how the context can change at a moment’s notice in any situation. But….

Almost all hotels have stairwells at either end of the hallways. You can’t see a stairwell door due to the angle, but assuming there was one the location of the room should not have been an issue; the room could be approached from the other direction by other cops which would have the added benefit of allowing them to surround Shaver and Portillo should there be no one in the alcove in front of Shaver’s room’s door. If someone was hiding there, they would have known before Portillo and Shaver came out of the room and thereafter could cover if a weapon was drawn from Shaver’s rear waistband or pocket.

Regarding the way the cops approached the door at the end of the video….there still could have been someone in that alcove or behind the door. That additional suspect(s) would know the cops were coming because a) there were several shouted commands to Shaver and Portillo and b) there were shots fired, and c) the sergeant was yelling “Keycard, keycard, keycard!” So I don’t see how any additional suspects figured into the sergeant’s calculus.

Yes, the sergeant has no business being employed by the department. Note what happens when Portillo and Shaver first walk into view. The sergeant tells them to lay on the ground. They both do so. He asks them if anyone else is in the room, They reply no. And then the sergeant says “Apparently we have a failure for you to follow simple instructions”. What failure? That statement and tone makes an already tense situation worse, not only for a possibly-armed suspect, but also for a cop with a weapon trained on that suspect. If Shaver did have a gun and was drunk and/or stoned, it could goad him into using it. And the tone of his voice was demeaning – an approach that can cause escalation. A strong, authoritative tone is crucial, but mocking the suspect is foolish.

My son had the same thought as ropelight – he felt if Shaver came around with something in his hand, he’d have a huge advantage with a long vs hand gun (accuracy) from a standing vs kneeling position. More than enough time to fire and stop him cold from ten feet. And if it wasn’t a weapon in his hand, it would be justified.

Our conclusion was the sergeant, Brailsford, taser-cop, and dancing-cop were poorly trained and/or not evaluated properly.
Lenny (5ea732) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:01 pm
Depending on whatever the law is in AZ, if a juror, I’d have voted for some available degree of manslaughter.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:00 pm

A jury room in AZ is one of the few places you would see 12 people and 0 guns.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:01 pm
49 Yes, I think that he had been a civilian, he would have been convicted of at least voluntary manslaughter (failed self defense) with a firearm and facing a mandatory minimum sentence of 25 years.

Civilians are unlikely to be in that exact situation. In many states if you confront an intruder in your house and shoot them you can’t be prosecuted even if the shooting wouldn’t be considered self-defense if it happened in a public place.
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:05 pm
Calling it a murder, has he mot kumped tbe gun in every one of these situation?
narciso (4346c7) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:07 pm
yes yes just lay down and ignore the inane barkings of the ignorant arizona popo

this is how we live a long and prosperous life in failmerica anymore
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:14 pm

That’s what Gandhi would have done.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:09 pm
For teh love of God, no more mot kumping!!!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:12 pm
Not that the cop was not only a coward but also a clown.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:22 pm

I’d like him to explain all of his tattoos. Cops with sleeves look dumb and unprofessional. There may be a correlation.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:16 pm
Brailsford was charged with second degree murder. It is the knowing or intentional killing of a human being without justification. French has mot kumped anything.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:19 pm
Back in the day, Haiku, kids could proudly wear their Cub Scout uniforms to school with their official Cub Scout pen knife- a $9 ‘badge of honor’- clipped to their belts
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 7:40 pm

ROTC rifle ranges in the basement of High Schools. Rifles and shotguns in pickup truck gun racks in the parking lots. Not all that long ago.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:21 pm
“Mot kumped,” That is a keeper! Good title for a manifesto.
felipe (023cc9) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:29 pm
The key to deciphering narciso has always been one degree of typing.
felipe (023cc9) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:31 pm
One degree “left,” that is.
felipe (023cc9) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:32 pm
I was once caught in between conflicting orders by Philly cops in a parking lot where the Navy Midshipmen were beginning to gather for the march on for the Army/Navy football game. I was trying to park in a spot which had been specifically reserved for my car. Well, it very soon became a cluster. To be very clear, there was no instant where deadly force was a thought.

Two cops standing next to my driver door were yelling at me to drive straight through (which is what I wanted to do). Right as I started, a cop about 10 yards ahead lost his sh*t and aggressively came upon the car and banged the hood, denting it. I frantically pointed to the cops who had just ordered me to do what I did and he refused to look up and check. He just kept yelling at me and threatened to yank me out of the vehicle (a company car) and arrest me. I was scared. Really scared. I had no idea what to do. After about 30 seconds of this, the original two cops told the other one to just let me pass as the car being stopped there was just going to present a bigger issue. Te jerk cop cursed at me and I was able to get to the spot I had wanted.

Again, the context is a much, much, lower threshold than deadly force. But, I assure you, I have never been more scared out of my wits in my entire life than I was in that moment. I have a ton of sympathy for the victim in this shooting as a result. That sergeant needs to be terminated back-dated to that day. I hope he is not vested. It would be great if he could have his pension forfeited.

It was not murder, though. The correct decision in a criminal justice context was rendered. I’d love to be on a civil jury sitting in judgment of that sergeant.
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 12/9/2017 @ 8:54 pm
Did you hear that, Daniel Shaver? You were not murdered. What’s that? Why are you dead, then? I dunno, maybe you had pneumonia or something?
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 9:14 pm
We was mot kumping last night and got all tore up!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/9/2017 @ 9:17 pm
I think manslaughter would have been reasonable, but it is Maricopa county so they wanted to make an example of him. Now he wasn’t charging the officer I would say it was a bad shoot, consider Miami 1989 but not as screwed up as mcduffie 1980,
narciso (4346c7) — 12/9/2017 @ 9:21 pm
Apparently, the sergeant took early retirement immediately upon Internal Affairs opening an investigation.
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 9:24 pm
Thank you for this story Patterico. I don’t know how I feel about the shooting, but the sargeant clearly escalated matters and shouldn’t have been in his position.

Tough call on whether this is an accidental shooting.

In the case of contradictory orders I’d probably just stand there with my hands raised scared out of my wits.
NJRob (b00189) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:06 pm
BTW,

one of the 4 racists that kidnapped and tortured that poor, disabled white kid and broadcast it on Facebook got off with a slap on the wrist and probation. No jail time at all.
NJRob (b00189) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:07 pm
@76/@78. Funny how somethings you read or see here stays w/you. Brewed a pot of java and watched some TV for a few hours but of all the particulars P posted, can’t shake the imagery of that copper pumping five shots in less than two seconds into that weepy guy on the floor killing him. This was a manslaughter of some kind.

_____

@60. You and Roy know just where the young frosh ladies in shorts practice, dontcha, mg. No Sharpies; bring a Bic.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:37 pm
NJ Rob — it doesn’t have to be accidental, and I don’t think anything in the post or the videos suggests it was accidental.

The question is whether it was a justified shooting.

I think Patrick makes a pretty good case that suggests the officer shouldn’t have been tried at all.

But he was, and the jury acquitted him. Patrick’s pointing out the various reasons why.
shipwreckedcrew (56b591) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:39 pm
Did you hear that, Daniel Shaver? You were not murdered. What’s that? Why are you dead, then? I dunno, maybe you had pneumonia or something?
nk (dbc370) — 12/9/2017 @ 9:14 pm

If he were Dustin Hoffman playing Willie Loman nobody would have noticed his hands.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:43 pm
@58. Respect your experience-based judgement, Hoagie, as you posted at #13. Believe you’ve articulated the correct call.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:46 pm
SWC,

I use accidental to mean he didn’t intend to kill him. But you are correct that the proper discussion would be whether it’s a lawful shooting.
NJRob (b00189) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:47 pm
@83. Don’t know. But from 10 feet the officer pumped five shots into a confused, frightened, weeping man on all fours in less than two seconds killing him. Not one to wound or two to incapacitate, but bang, bang, bang, bang, bang: five. Seems a tad excessive meriting a litigation of some kind.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:58 pm
. You and Roy know just where the young frosh ladies in shorts practice, dontcha, mg. No Sharpies; bring a Bic.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:37 pm

Don’t nock it till you try it.

mg sent me down a rabbit hole but there was an amusing find. Do you all remember GHWB giving the reverse peace sign to Australia?

Up Yours
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 11:09 pm
Not one to wound or two to incapacitate, but bang, bang, bang, bang, bang: five. Seems a tad excessive meriting a litigation of some kind.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 10:58 pm

Shooting to wound isn’t really a thing. I tend to agree that five is probably excessive in hindsight. But what difference, at this point, does it make?
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/9/2017 @ 11:19 pm
@88. Lived it, PP. Resided in the UK for years. And the proper way is to say, “Salutee!’ a la Frankie Howerd aka ‘Lurcio’ in “Up Pompeii!” Best way ever to tag a comedy.

Google it.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 11:19 pm
Looking at this from the standpoint of the victim, one cannot fail to want to see the officders do hard time.

The officer has a DUTY to give clear and reasonable commands if the failure to obey them can result in deadly force. If a reasonable person would have NO %^$KING IDEA what to do as the result of the string of commands, and someone dies as a result, then at the very least the officer(s) were grossly negligent

In this case the sergeant is responsible for whatever goes wrong. ONLY since the shooting and the crazy commands were by different people, I would not find the shooter guilty of a crime, and I do not even think I would want him fired, barring other information. The sergeant is another matter. Was he drunk? In any event involuntary manslaughter would seem reasonable.

I would also find the department terribly guilty of the wrongful death (training, hiring and promoting morons, etc).
Kevin M (752a26) — 12/9/2017 @ 11:41 pm
Now, I don’t know the law allows a jury to find the sergeant guilty in the death just because it was his crazy commands and screaming that led to the death. The actual shooter was reacting to events, but those events were driven by a string of commands that I would like to call unlawful. There is clear culpability there.
Kevin M (752a26) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:07 am
DCSCA
Keep hitting your head on that perverted glass ceiling you own, sooner or later you will be concussed.
mg (60b0f7) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:37 am
@93. You like looking through perverted glass ceilings dontcha, mg– especially on Ladies Night.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:41 am
You can see that the room is just beyond where they had Shaver initially lie on the ground. If they simply walked up to him and cuffed him, as many have suggested they should have done, they would have spent extra time in front of the door, where a gunman with a long gun could be just behind the door, waiting to shoot them.

I’ve been thinking about this, and I’m not convinced.

After they shot the guy, they just waltzed right up to the door and stood in front of it long enough to have a cup of coffee, without taking any special precautions.

Hotel doors tend to be a couple inches thick, made out of heavy material, and they open inward. And they are wearing body armor.

It’s hard to see that they would have been in any great danger by taking the guy into custody where he fell. If they needed backup, to cover the door, they could have waited for it – nobody was going anywhere.
Dave (445e97) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:46 am
Lived it, PP. Resided in the UK for years. And the proper way is to say, “Salutee!’ a la Frankie Howerd aka ‘Lurcio’ in “Up Pompeii!” Best way ever to tag a comedy.

Google it.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/9/2017 @ 11:19 pm

You have to add a raspberry to it like Mrs Slocum from Are You Being Served. And I am unanimous in that.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:11 am
The officer has a DUTY to give clear and reasonable commands if the failure to obey them can result in deadly force. If a reasonable person would have NO %^$KING IDEA what to do as the result of the string of commands, and someone dies as a result, then at the very least the officer(s) were grossly negligent

Kevin M (752a26) — 12/9/2017 @ 11:41 pm

Let’s check with the FBI. Grossly negligent or extremely careless?

Definitely a civil rights violation lawsuit in progress.
Pinandpuller (e88360) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:15 am
Enough with the myths about how dangerous police work is, as an excuse for police violence.

Statistically, law enforcement is not among the top 10 most dangerous jobs. In terms of deaths and serious injuries per 1000 workers, being a cop ranks about the same as driving a cab. In both jobs, the biggest risk factor is the amount of time spent driving.

But there’s not an endless stream of movies, TV series, and even entire cable networks devoted to cab drivers. Because cab drivers don’t get the benefit of that incessant mythmaking, no jury would take “If you’ve never driven a cab, you have no idea how dangerous it is!” as an excuse when a cab driver kills someone.

We have fetishized and militarized law enforcement, and senseless deaths like this one are the inevitable result.
Crissie Brown (15aab5) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:53 am
I have a lot of sympathy for cops but it has limits. If you are so scared for your personal safety you put others at risk for deadly force, find another profession.

When an athlete protects themselves from injury, they increase their risk.

Paramedic or something public service minded persons would be fulfilling..but if you must carry a firearm with a control-freaks demand for allegiance, I’ve got a problem.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:58 am
PTSD? Still backlash to combat?

Psych evals should be conducted annually .
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 7:04 am
98

But there’s not an endless stream of movies, TV series, and even entire cable networks devoted to cab drivers. Because cab drivers don’t get the benefit of that incessant mythmaking, no jury would take “If you’ve never driven a cab, you have no idea how dangerous it is!” as an excuse when a cab driver kills someone.

You sure about that? You don’t hear about cab drivers killing people all that often but I suspect some do get off when they do.
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/10/2017 @ 7:35 am
I have not studied these videos, and most of what I know about this comes from reading commentary like our host’s here, for which I thank and commend him.

It seems to me that the wrong cop was on trial. Using the tort-law concepts of civil responsibility I deal with in my job (which parallel, but don’t entirely overlap, those used in the criminal justice system), I’d say that the sergeant is who caused this shooting, not the officer who pulled the trigger. The shooting had as a simultaneous and independent proximate cause the victim’s violation of shouted orders, but the split-second decision to pull the trigger was a result of those two concurrent proximate causes. Was the sergeant’s conduct not merely grossly incompetent, grossly unprofessional, and so wildly reckless as to be punishable criminally? I think I’d have voted to convict him, but probably not the cop who pulled the trigger.
Beldar (fa637a) — 12/10/2017 @ 7:41 am
Ditto what Beldar said.
DRJ (15874d) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:07 am
It takes two to tango, both the instigator and the trigger puller are responsible for Shavers death. He’d be alive today if not for those two incompetent cops.
ropelight (bfb557) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:11 am
@83. Don’t know. But from 10 feet the officer pumped five shots into a confused, frightened, weeping man on all fours in less than two seconds killing him. Not one to wound or two to incapacitate, but bang, bang, bang, bang, bang: five. Seems a tad excessive meriting a litigation of some kind

At the very least they should have aimed for his right hand. Actually, probably aiming for his trigger finger alone would have been enough. If they had blown off his trigger finger he would have had a hard time pulling the trigger with his third or fourth finger. So they definitely would have had time to cuff him.

Yes, I am being ironic. If this sounds like tactics from a bad TV show, there’s a reason. You don’t do targeted “let’s incapacitate this guy” shooting with a guy you believe is going for his gun.

If you want to say “wait until you see the gun” that would be a better argument.
Patterico (df6fc2) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:13 am
For 50 years cops have been trained that if you use a gun it’s deadly force not wounding force.

Center body mass…

They never do cowboy stunts.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:17 am
I’m happy to concede that a fuller assessment of this case might conceivably lead me to a different conclusion on the cop’s culpability provided the pro-law enforcement crowd will concede that it’s an extreme rarity for police officers to see any consequences at all for reasons that have nothing to do with the evidence presented.

Each case is different, but the overarching theme is that because the police have blanket impunity to shoot suspects, pets and innocent bystanders their risk assessment is accordingly slanted to value officer safety against any remote possibility of harm above basic common sense or decency.

Even Republicans are starting to notice, and you’re right that it’s good that this guy is white because it removes any doubt that the police are a threat to all of us.
Bob (73a117) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:34 am
The shooting was wrong. Period. When I look at LEO-involved shootings I have one question:

“If I were in that position, what is the likelihood I’d have been shot\killed?”

When I watch this video, the answer is “very likely”. This guy was set up to be killed.

It was murder.

Now, as to whether the jury got it right depends on the law. According to the law was there enough evidence to convict? If not, there is something wrong with the law.

And if you need more evidence these officers are clowns just keep watching the video to where they’re idiotically standing in front of the door trying to use a keycard to get in – MULTIPLE TIMES – despite it not working and then just giving up.

99.9% of the commentators on this post would have been killed.Think about that.
jeff (0ca76c) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:45 am
Well they’re not stupid but cop mentalitydoes dominate the medulla more.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:57 am
@106

Even cowboys don’t do trick shooting. One cowboy would have headed him and the other would have heeled him. Will Rogers should have been a cop.
Pinandpuller (4ca8f3) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:06 am
Shaver’s reaching for his waist was a fatal mistake

Totally agree. When I saw that, I thought…that’s it. He was no doubt confused and hysterical but the cop with the gun did not know that.

The cops were also probably ultra keyed up before they even went in the hotel, because what the hell is some guy on a business trip doing with a long gun (apparently) that he’s waving out the window? Obviously a very unstable individual. I doubt this is an everyday occurrence in that city.

Some years ago, a cop stopped me and asked to see my license and registration. I was just coming back from the gym so had put them in the glove compartment. So nice middle class lady reaches down. Cop barks STOP so I stop and look at him. His eyes were wide with alarm. I slowly sat up and obeyed. So yeah I feel for them.

So my unofficial verdict would be not guilty for the shooter and absolute firing without pension for the sergeant. And send in someone competent to train this police force and figure out what they are doing wrong and who’s responsible.
Patricia (5fc097) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:10 am
I would also like all the BLM types to watch the Dinkheller video. Cops don’t just fall down and die like on TV when someone shoots them. They scream in fear and agony.
Patricia (5fc097) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:11 am
Patricia, doctors don’t just fall down when patients assault them either. Nor do shop owners, cab drivers or school teachers, all of whom are regularly in adversarial situations.

Those people don’t get special dispensation to kill people for looking at them funny.

Because cops do it completely transforms their behaviour to the detriment of society.
Bob (5decef) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:19 am
we deserve much better cops the ones we have are nasty and murderous

robocops are starting to have immense appeal compared to the loser ones we have now plus they don’t feel entitled to a pension
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:22 am
Even if they do not win in the court of public opinion, they hope to sow enough doubt that should Mueller produce damning evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, the reaction will be as divided as everything else in split-screen America, offering the president an escape route.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/10/robert-mueller-trump-special-counsel-russia
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:31 am
113 Those people don’t get special dispensation to kill people for looking at them funny.

Doctors get special dispensation to cut on people. Sometimes they make mistakes and people die as a result. This doesn’t usually lead to criminal charges.
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:33 am
Circular firing squad

https://apnews.com/760683fc12a7451bae2ab64b7bc7897f
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:38 am
Doctors get special dispensation to cut on people who have consented to surgery (or, in extreme cases, whose family have consented to surgery) and had the risks explained to them.

I actually like where your analogy takes us. People who vote for aggressive law enforcement should be forced to sign a waiver saying ‘I consent to the risk of being killed by police officers should they believe I am not sufficiently compliant to their orders, howsoever delivered.’

Then we can check whether that waiver has been signed before deciding whether to prosecute these cases.
Bob (207769) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:43 am
118 Doctors get special dispensation to cut on people who have consented to surgery (or, in extreme cases, whose family have consented to surgery) and had the risks explained to them.

In emergency situations there are no consent forms involved.
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:56 am
The Mesa Police Department fired Brailsford several months ago for “unsatisfactory performance.” Part of his unsatisfactory performance is the fact that he scrawled the phrase “you’re f*cked” on the dust cover of his service rifle.

What interests me here is the level of the police response. I was assaulted. Attacked and I have Parkinson’s and use a cane to walk. When I do walk my feet drag on the ground and yet the police didn’t even want to come out, here in North Hollywood California. Later that night while I was walking our small dog the guy threatened to kill me and while he was shouting at me while I was on the phone with 911 it still took them over an hour to come out.

When my son committed suicide early last year most of the sheriffs department officers were very helpful. One however, was a complete jerk. He was rude and refused to help me. I wish I had gotten his name because when I complained later they asked for his name. I’ve also had a sheriff lie about me speeding. I got off because I had video from inside my vintage sports car showing that I was not speeding.

The point is there are some bad police officers. The sergeant definitely needs better training. In this case I don’t believe the sergeant should’ve had his job. I believe he escalated the situation far beyond what it should’ve been because of his weird commands, level of obvious stress, and shouting.
Tanny O'Haley (c674c7) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:02 am
Similarly, Bob, shouldn’t people who don’t sign your waiver be presumed to agree that they don’t want or need police protection?
DRJ (15874d) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:03 am
so so sorry to hear about your son
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:04 am
DRJ, I think a good proportion of them would be fine with that if it meant not being at risk from cops.
Bob (207769) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:12 am
That’s the key issue

Cops:public servants who put their lives on the line, or ex military looking to double-dip?

I assume they won’t show when the SHTF.

They’ll be home protecting their own families.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:27 am
these body-cams are good for america that’s for sure
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:40 am
Where do I sign to get properly trained police?
Davethulhu (99cc74) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:44 am
I can’t believe my work wife Quanesha walked out on me without saying a word. I wonder if I can get joint custody of the N word? I’m really gonna miss that little fella.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:44 am
Excellent analysis of the shooting, and the juries dilemma. Unspoken in many of these incidents is the fact that we have raised 2-3 generations of men who not been allowed to fight, or engage in serious physical confrontations, and so have no starting point in learning to control their own adrenaline. That, IMO, is what explains the sergeant’s incredibly moronic instructions. And the defendants actions. We still give service points to veterans in the hiring process, but there’s no guarantee that the applicant has been under fire, or knows how to control himself in a flight or fight situation.that, I believe, is why we are seeing more and more incidents in which the police seem out of control. I don’t include women at all, because, while they tend to make very good investigators, they have no place in patrol, and are there out of political extravagance.
The second point that should be mentioned is that the initial call resembled the Vegas mass shooting. A man with a long gun, in an elevated hotel window. There is no way that that was not in the minds of the responding officers, and no way that the tensioned wasn’t raised accordingly. And so, as stated above, people with no ability to control their own adrenaline, wee placed in a high tension situation.
Lastly, many departments have ceded all “high risk” situations to SWAT or TRT teams. This deprives patrol personnel of the opportunity to learn how to respond in crisis situations, and unfortunately, the nature of the work guarantees that eventually, a situation will arise when SWAT is just going to there in time.
It’s easy to predict that there will be more similar incidents..
macleod (bd8bb2) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:44 am
i hope Quanesha finds what she’s looking for
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:50 am
Patterico pretty much gave it away in the second half of his post <[Ctrl-F Kyle Dinkheller]. Cops are being indoctrinated to shoot first and look for the danger later. Like the second watch sergeant in Hill Street Blues: “Get them before they get you.”

Here’s the thing. Now I’ve got a couple of videos, too. Daniel Shaver’s shooting and Philando Castille’s shooting. If I have a guy on trial for shooting a cop, can I show them to the jury and, coupled with the Dinkheller Doctrine, argue preemptive self-defense?
nk (dbc370) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:51 am
He was no doubt confused and hysterical but the cop with the gun did not know that.

How could the cop who was staring right at him, watching him struggle to comply and sob in terror not know that?

I absolutely agree with Beldar, though, that the sergeant was more culpable than the shooter.

It’s obviously silly for me to quote Wikipedia to dozens of lawyers, on a prosecutor’s blog, but…

A person commits the crime of reckless endangerment if the person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. “Reckless” conduct is conduct that exhibits a culpable disregard of foreseeable consequences to others from the act or omission involved. The accused need not intentionally cause a resulting harm. The ultimate question is whether, under all of the circumstances, the accused’s conduct was of that heedless nature that made it actually or imminently dangerous to the rights or safety of others.

Seems like a pretty good description of what transpired…
Dave (445e97) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:56 am
@128

Unspoken in many of these incidents is the fact that we have raised 2-3 generations of men who not been allowed to fight, or engage in serious physical confrontations, and so have no starting point in learning to control their own adrenaline.

Lol if you think this situation is unique to our times. It’s just more visible now.
Davethulhu (99cc74) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:59 am
both of these murder cops are like a hundred times more culpable than the illegal immigrant guy what killed that girl on the pier in san francisco that’s for sure
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:00 am
Happyfeet,

you’re still a moron. That’s all.

Cops are charged to enforce the law and are legally permitted to be here and carry firearms.
NJRob (b00189) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:05 am
I disagree with Beldar. The sergeant’s hysteria in no way diminishes the shooter’s responsibility. He was the actor. Voluntary act, conscious intent to kill. No evidence of diminished capacity, duress or coercion (which later two do not apply to murder in any event).

If it can be proven that it was also the sergeant’s intent that Daniel Shaver be killed, then we can indict him as an accomplice alongside the shooter.

This was not negligence. It was knowing and intentional. The shooter got off because of the affirmative defense of self-defense and not because of lack of proof of any of the elements of the crime of murder.
nk (dbc370) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:08 am
Patricia, doctors don’t just fall down when patients assault them either. Nor do shop owners, cab drivers or school teachers, all of whom are regularly in adversarial situations.

Those people don’t get special dispensation to kill people for looking at them funny.

I never linked those two facts and you know it. But your righteous indignation is all that matters, right?

And Dave, to clarify, the cops did not know that he did NOT have a gun in his waistband and in his confusion was only reaching to pull up his pants. After all he was waving a long gun out of a window earlier.
Patricia (5fc097) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:09 am
so you’re saying it’s like apples and oranges

but i don’t agree i think those cops were just being mean and they killed an innocent man and they should go to jail cause all the other little cop people need to understand this is not acceptable

this is also why the killer illegal immigrant should also go to jail, so all the other illegals know we’re not eager to put up with their sick violent tendencies

therefore this is apples to apples

apples have a lot of carbs but also a lot of flavor (especially when you bake them)

adding just a touch of a thinly sliced apple to a baked chicken breast can complement it nicely while not adding anything significant to your carb intake
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:12 am
Couple of points: PRESUMING the perspective of the video is accurate, the cops were about three steps away from being able to kick the guy in the head, or put a foot on his neck or sit on him.
Talking about a recent case, in CCL training, where a guy went after a legal carrier with the cover from a trash bin, I suggested the carrier could have kicked the guy in the balls. Back in the day, I could have kicked him in the chin, but now the knee will do just fine. He’s got the cover over his head, thinking above his neck and protecting nothing.
Nope, turned out to be a legitimate shoot.
Could have kicked the guy in the nuts but….killed him instead.

“conflicting orders”. When do you give conflicting orders? When you want to see how a trainee reacts to uncertainty and confusion. Last night, I was involved in a public event, keeping people moving in the desired direction. When I wanted them to move to the left, it would have been a mental effort to point to the right at the same time. Or, worse, tell them to move right.
The point of conflicting orders is that the guy can’t possibly comply and so there is always an excuse to kill him. So either a single individual does the job, or a bunch of cops all yelling at once. One way or another…there’s a way.
Richard Aubrey (10ef71) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:17 am
If the illegal immigrant goes to jail for killing Kate, then all the NYPD cops whose wild shots have killed and crippled innocent bystanders should too. As well as LA County sheriff’s deputies who recently killed Armando Garcia. But he won’t, and they won’t.
nk (dbc370) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:21 am
If you’re in a cops circle of trust you will hear rock-bottom morale and fatalism…like a grunt in the Mekong. It’s that bad.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:23 am
LA Sheriffs are the worst..well maybe Orange County beats em.

Total criminal psyche.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:25 am
My daughter told me this morning that Daniel Shaver had two daughters. Here’s a picture of them and his wife too.
nk (dbc370) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:27 am
If your in this country illegally and your murdered, whose fault is it?
mg (60b0f7) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:34 am
I don’t know if the officer is guilty or not, when I saw the video I definitely missed the part where he was reaching for his pants. Maybe the jury saw it and got additional context.

I don’t know why the officer had to be so menacing in his instructions. I don’t see why he could have just said something like “Nothing will happen to you if you just obey our instructions, young man, you don’t have to be scared”.
lee (50739e) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:36 am
that’s heartbreaking Mr. nk I hope they have a civil suit what they can do on the mesa popo and that the community’s rallying around them

here’s a gofundme for Mr. Shaver’s family
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 11:40 am
If you do casual math about one third of cops shot in the line of duty are shot by their own guns.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:02 pm
they’re so stupid
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:03 pm
Judging from YouTube there are scores of off duty cops, game wardens and park rangers who should be dead or in jail for pulling their guns on “civilians”. But they aren’t.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:20 pm
@105. See your point but perhaps you’re taking mine too literally- not suggesting ‘Matt Dillion’ histrionics here. ‘Wait until you see the gun’ is Hoagies judgement which I agree with. But five rifle shots pumped into a weeping guy at close range on all fours in 1.5 – 2 seconds is disturbingly excessive. One– even two would demonstrate more situational awareness of the consequences in play here.

Slept on this and awoke still thinking about it. Can’t shake the act of five rifle shots into the victim in less than two seconds. That’s less ‘Gunsmoke‘ and more ‘Magnum Force.’

More convinced today than yesterday, if a juror, I’d have voted manslaughter.
_____

@106. If that how you see it, Ben, and our cops should merely to shoot to kill, it’ll save a lot of municipalities money buying tasers, rubber bullets, handcuffs and put the courts and guys like Patterico out of a job.
_____

125. Especially if they’re made in China, eh Mr. Feet.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/10/2017 @ 12:45 pm
That’s how it is, DC.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (44b529) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:08 pm
. The sergeant’s hysteria in no way diminishes the shooter’s responsibility. He was the actor. Voluntary act, conscious intent to kill. No evidence of diminished capacity, duress or coercion (which later two do not apply to murder in any event

But it did contribute directly in two ways: increases the shooter’s own stress, and make it more likely that he saw the situation as more dangerous than it was.

I also disagree with Patterico on the usefulness of an incapitating shot. Unless the shootee is as high as a kite, he’ll notice and be seriously distracted by the resulting trauma. He may still pull out the weapon he was going for, but aiming it and pulling the trigger will be impacted.
kishnevi (8adcb8) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:09 pm
79 degrees on the sand in Carmel, CA… wow!’
Colonel Haiku (f0e797) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:10 pm
They’re not giving him much of a chance – and clearly don’t feel like they have an obligation to to. He’s barely getting more of a chance than Osama bin Laden did with Seal Team 6.

They’re treating him like he just killed some people or was about to. They’re too scared (or concerned about danger from him) to take some time. They are too scared even to let him talk, feeling that would be a distraction, but that doesn’t let him complain.

What’s the reason not to be tactful?

Is this unreasonable? The problem is all of this is based on a misunderdstanding of t they were told, whih wasn’t accurate in the first place.
Sammy Finkelman (02a146) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:10 pm
Cabin boy ben@115

Kind of what the media did for Hillary, isn’t it.
kishnevi (8adcb8) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:12 pm
High here today in SoFl is 62°. Overnight lows last night and tonight again in the upper 40s.
kishnevi (8adcb8) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:14 pm
“That’s just teh way it is.”

—- Rear Admiral Been Bunsburning
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:20 pm
@150. That’s how it was– in Occupied France, Ben.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:21 pm
Great stuff, if not posted yet… https://youtu.be/nSuregWhlWk
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:36 pm
The second point that should be mentioned is that the initial call resembled the Vegas mass shooting. A man with a long gun, in an elevated hotel window. There is no way that that was not in the minds of the responding officers, and no way that the tensioned wasn’t raised accordingly.

There’s a way: the Vegas shooting hadn’t happened yet.

I even say that in the post.
Patterico (115b1f) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:45 pm
My initial impression was that the shooter was the one yelling. That makes a difference: both Shaver and the officer on the gun had to work with the sergeant’s instructions.

However. If a suspect complies with several consecutive instructions, it establishes a pattern and rhythm, and everyone is safer. A sudden deviation much clearer and more significant. But the sergeant’s instructions were chaotic, contradictory and incomprehensible. It was completely impossible for Shaver to comply even if he had wanted to. Yes, he reached for his waistband. But the contradictory instructions did not give him the opportunity to comply, and he was threatened with death if he didn’t comply. Those instructions got him killed. Were those instructions a crime? I don’t know.

In any case, the city will have probably try to prove that the sergeant’s instructions violated department procedures and standards… but those standards and procedures seem to have put him in a position to give the deadly instructions.
Peter B (49766a) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:49 pm
I want to mention something that I think needs addressing. Have you all noticed that for quite some time all police except beat cops and detectives dress like Nazi storm troopers? They come in real hard and fast looking for trouble, screaming their lungs out, armed to the teeth with automatic weapons, wearing body armor, jack boots and the old Nazi-like helmet and they are in total black just like the Gestapo. What is that about? Can’t we come up with uniforms and armament for our police that don’t look like the worst actors in history? It’s an unspoken truth that the cops work for the government and are there to control and if necessary kill civilians but do they have to dress like the arguably worst government police force in history? Maybe it’s me but when they look like Nazi’s they seem to act like Nazi’s.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:53 pm
In memorial of Daniel Shaver all white NFL players should take a knee during the anthem.
#WhiteLivesMatter.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:57 pm
I thought LAPD (also the originator of the SWAT) was the inspiration for the widespread adaptation of tactical black. I always kind of liked the Good Humor/Sailor look of Cincinnati and Columbus OH.
urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/10/2017 @ 1:59 pm
162 Rev, the MLS Final might be more apropos given who the 2 rarget demos and whomthe deceased was comissrrating business with.
urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:04 pm
I’ve yet to hear what soy boy cuckservative speaker Ryan thinks.
mg (60b0f7) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:05 pm
There was a famously controversial self defense shooting in my old hometown of Casper, WY in the 90’s.

Two brothers went to a beer joint one night and engaged in a game of chance with several other people. They lost all of their money and were suitably outraged enough to go home and grab a .22 pistol and a shotgun. At a certain point when they were attempting an uncivil seizure a guy named Smokey Lyles grabbed the shotgun away from one of the brothers.

The DA’s story was that he was ejecting the shells the safe way you do that sort of thing. The defense argued that the brother with the .22 thought Mr Lyles was racking the shotgun to shoot his dumb a$$. The brothers got off on murder for sure. I don’t remember the rest.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:09 pm
ULB, hf, nk

I’m sure y’all know all about that cop in your area who got filmed telling the kids at the pawn shop they were detained because they were white.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:23 pm
Chicago’s finest
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:27 pm
He’s in a department 2 towns over from me and certainly in my Ramos^2 Hall of Fame.

In seriousness though, the CPD looked at me askew for my address back in my truly urban and left behind days, because the presumption is that you are a wholesaler or retail buyer of drugs in that neighborhood.
urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:32 pm
Is it possible that an evolution, for which training is supposedly provided, can be done so horribly wrong, so incorrectly, so outside the bounds of what the training provided, that the errors themselves amount to criminality?
“reckless”? “negligent”?, “involuntary”? Haven’t one or two of those been prefixes to one or another homicide charge?
Or there’s Law and Order’s fave, “depraved indifference to human life”
Can you really skate on doing something awful by demonstrating you don’t have a clue when you’re being paid to have a clue?
Richard Aubrey (10ef71) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:32 pm
All I know is my brother was a cop and he used to get shot to death by innocent-looking people 3 or 4 times per week. I heartily approve of the idea that cops should shoot first and ask questions later given the thousands of cops killed every single day in this country. Oh, wait, no, very few cops ever get shot at in their entire careers, teaching them that every single person they meet is potentially a cop-killer and they should behave accordingly is a really bad idea. I mean, to start with, you’ve got “somebody” calling the cops and saying “some guy” has a gun and the cops take this as an unimpeachable source of proof that this guy is the guy and that he’s armed and dangerous, no skepticism whatsoever that maybe the caller was an idiot, maybe the guy had an umbrella or a walking stick or maybe they had the wrong guy? (But bonus points for adding the excuse of “the cop doubtlessly was very scared” – that’s the prosecutorial mindset we all know and love, holding cops to a lower standard than your average schlub on the street.)
Jerryskids (cfad51) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:45 pm
Jerry Skidmarks for teh whine…
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:52 pm
It would be interesting to have the video of the woman who was with Shaver to see how she was removed from the hallway. Why no issues with her?
Ipso Fatso (7e1c8e) — 12/10/2017 @ 2:56 pm
I wonder if this has anything to do with affirmative action hires of police officers. I’m not talking about racial hiring, but hiring woman. Not for back office work, but as patrol officers and swat. Because women have less strength and tend to be shorter than most men, they had to reduce standards for all police hires. I know for instance where is a 6 foot plus man can perform a chokehold without killing a suspect shorter people often kill the suspect. I also remember a case of man suing a police department because they didn’t hire him because he was too smart. He lost the case.

Where a larger stronger police officer can subdue a suspect with strength, the weaker officer has to use deadly force. I remember this being talked about a lot in the 1970s. Now apparently it is so politically incorrect you can’t even Google it. The only thing that I could find even close to describing the problem was this article.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/03/29/affirmative-action-has-mixed-results-for-cops.html

What do you think?
Tanny O'Haley (c674c7) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:14 pm
Rev. Hoagie, I also have noticed that our police seem to be very heavily armed up these days. Also, the “bad” areas of our cities have grown and the “good” areas shrunk. A lady felled by a stray gangster bullet died in the hospital in which I was born! And a gangland shootout occurred next to a place I used to work as a teenager.

My liberals friends cannot explain to me why progressive cities have deteriorated to this point. Unexpectedly, as Insta says.
Patricia (5fc097) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:18 pm
cannot explain to me why progressive cities have deteriorated to this point. Unexpectedly, as Insta says.

Maybe you’re not asking the right questions of the right people.

The shortcut to an answer is the movie Idiocracy.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:22 pm
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-12-10/the-trump-russia-probe-is-about-to-get-uglier

Equally clear is that no matter what is revealed, Trump and his allies won’t go quietly. Already, some congressional Republicans are trying to smear Mueller, the most experienced and respected special counsel in more than 40 years. If cornered, does anyone doubt that Trump will summon his core supporters to the streets?

The constant revelations create such a blur that context sometimes is overlooked. Trump and his operatives have lied repeatedly, denying that they had any contacts with Russians. Now we now know of at least 19 meetings among 31 interactions.

There are three avenues Mueller is exploring. Did the Trump team aid and abet the Russian efforts to hack and steal e-mails with an eye toward influencing with the U.S. presidential election? Did the president try to obstruct the investigation into those efforts? What was the nature of any financial arrangements Trump may have had with Russians linked to the Kremlin? Many of the Trump defenses seem to be unraveling.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:29 pm
thirsty progressives
drink deeply of teh Brawndo®
and that’s not helping
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:34 pm
pull teh other one
al hunt is such a dumb cvnt
feverswampm00nbat
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:38 pm
Tanny O’Halley @174. That’s part of it, and it’s not only women in the police, it’s across the board for all government hires and promotions and all Griggs hires and promotions. Every hiring or promotion requirement must be strictly “job related” and with “non-discriminatory impact” which means absolutely minimal bottom-of-the-barrel standards.

But that’s not the real reason. The history of police in America, dating back to the Founding, is that they’re no better than the criminals they go after. Strong-arm thugs and gunmen and lackeys for the political bosses and the business interests. Not dedicated civil servants or professionals — that’s just so much Hollywood and popular fiction mythology.
nk (dbc370) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:44 pm
There ate certain patterns the first citroen flame happened after. Car chasrcin the banlieus, that w in 05, the tottenham riot in the UK after a certain distributor of Jamaican origin went nowegiam blue, and then Baltimore the city that became a synonym for murder in the carcetti era.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:45 pm
Teh Left promotes lowest common denominator behaviors that keep their brainwashed, emaciated bovine demographic muttering “wha happen?” as they continually weaken…
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:46 pm
But that’s not the real reason.

Unions began with a twisted spine because Bosses hired thugs and cops to break heads at Union beats. They had no choice but to broker a deal with the debbil and organized crime became embedded irretrievably in a grass roots labor movement.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:51 pm
Capitalism is our friend.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:55 pm
Cops, ABBB types and nevertrumpers check your attics for infrasound

Infrasound is sound at levels so low humans can’t hear it (though other animals, like elephants, can). Low frequency vibrations can cause distinct physiological discomfort. Scientists studying the effects of wind turbines and traffic noise near residences have found that low-frequency noise can cause disorientation, feelings of panic, changes in heart rate and blood pressure, and other effects that could easily be associated with being visited by a ghost . For instance, in a 1998 paper on natural causes of hauntings , engineer Vic Tandy describes working for a medical equipment manufacturer, whose labs included a reportedly haunted room. Whenever Tandy worked in this particular lab, he felt depressed and uncomfortable, often hearing and seeing odd things—including an apparition that definitely looked like a ghost. Eventually, he discovered that the room was home to an 19 Hz standing wave coming from a fan, which was sending out the inaudible vibrations that caused the disorienting effects. Further studies also show links between infrasound and bizarre sensations like getting chills down the spine or feeling uneasy.

Source
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 5:18 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/us-diplomats-sonic-attack-ototoxicity/amp

I’m always tuned to 110 hz.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 5:22 pm
Patricia asked:

My liberals friends cannot explain to me why progressive cities have deteriorated to this point. Unexpectedly, as Insta says.
Patricia (5fc097) — 12/10/2017 @ 4:18 pm

To wit comrade Ben glibly replied:

Maybe you’re not asking the right questions of the right people.

The shortcut to an answer is the movie Idiocracy.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner

Since the question refers to leftist policies and the deterioration of cities because of them who other than a leftist should Patricia ask? And what does a fantasy movie have to do with the results of real life policies?

Perhaps as a bright comrade you would like to take a stab at answering Patricia’s question, Ben!. After all you’re a smart leftist who thinks he has all the answers so please enlighten us lowly slobs as to why after decades of leftist rule the urban districts look like Berlin in ’45?
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/10/2017 @ 5:28 pm
Well seeing as they blamed a video for Stevens murder and whitewashed Noel and moore being targeted by atafat:

https://babalublog.com/2017/12/09/congress-demands-state-dept-engage-experts-to-help-in-investigation-of-sonic-attacks-on-u-s-diplomats-in-cuba/
narciso (d1f714) — 12/10/2017 @ 5:34 pm
My liberals friends cannot explain to me why progressive cities have deteriorated to this point.

Professional sports, definitely. There’s a perfect, or near-perfect, correlation between cities with MLB, NFL and NBA franchises and ghettos riddled with poverty and crime.
nk (dbc370) — 12/10/2017 @ 5:36 pm
Hoagie misses the point again!

She had a false thesis that absolves all slobs on the right of accountability. Now, hoagie..I know this answer doesn’t titillate your broad and spacious pov to your full release and satisfaction , but that’s the way your cookie crumbles.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/10/2017 @ 5:37 pm
Pin, is that guy one of the Radio Shack Tandys?
urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:00 pm
A false thesis? You are rambling, Ben bunsen, but that is your intent right?
Patricia (5fc097) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:10 pm
BTW, the Youtube comments on the Dinkheller video are truly reprehensible.
Kevin M (752a26) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:40 pm
She had a false thesis that absolves all slobs on the right of accountability

Bull-phuking-shit Ben!. She asked a reasonable and demonstrative question. You can but don’t want to answer it. But it’s okay, we already know the answer.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:42 pm
Patterico,

wrt #92-93 and 102, could a sergeant who acted like that (if in California) be subject to criminal sanction?
Kevin M (752a26) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:42 pm
I would also like all the BLM types to watch the Dinkheller video.

Many did. You can see it in their “piggy got what he had coming” comments on Youtube.
Kevin M (752a26) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:47 pm
Pin, is that guy one of the Radio Shack Tandys?

urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:00 pm

Could be. Did he ask for your phone number?
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:53 pm
I saw Patricia’s bit about reaching into a glove box during a traffic stop, and remembered something I’d hope I only do once, since it could have been fatal.

I was a block or so from home, coming back from getting some fast food, when I got pulled over. They claimed that I’d rolled a stop sign (I will always believe this was a pretext). I had the bag of food on the seat beside me. So, one officer comes to the car, asks for the license and registration, while the other officer takes up a position on the right side of the car.

How unusual, I think, as I absently reach into the bag for some french fries.

Now, nothing happened — no orders were barked — but shortly thereafter when the officer returns my registration saying that the car was on the HOT list, I realize that reaching into a bag on the seat was not that great an idea. If I had been black, it really might have turned out differently. Don’t know that, but it would not have been working in my favor. I don’t buy most of the BLM argument, but there are some nuggets of truth on the margin.

Sometimes you have no idea what the police are thinking, and what seems to you to be a casual act might appear otherwise to them. The car was not, of course, “hot” as it had been stolen and returned to me months earlier. Rather than fight the system, I exchanged the plates the next day as the officer suggested.
Kevin M (752a26) — 12/10/2017 @ 6:59 pm
I think what happened here was this: The ops were – not scared – but very wary of Shaver. And, in heir minds, they would have been justified in killing him on the spot without anything.

But they knew that was against police regulations. So they went through the motions of attempting to take him into custody, but not in a serious way. Just enough to avoid violating police regulations.

If they should have been found not guilty if they hadn’t issued any orders to him, but just shot him, then they should have been found not guilty here.

Because this farce of a surrender procedure didn’t add anything to make them any less guilty than if that had been the case.
Sammy Finkelman (393233) — 12/10/2017 @ 7:28 pm
The cops here may have been thinking that Daniel Shaver was a highly trained terrorist, or perhaps had a suicide belt. They didn’t like being where they were and being forced to attempt to get him to surrender.
Sammy Finkelman (393233) — 12/10/2017 @ 7:31 pm
I doubt that, but they might have thought him a potential spree killer, if they had spe ified the type of weapon, hews branduahing much of this would have been resolve
narciso (d1f714) — 12/10/2017 @ 7:40 pm
The cops here may have been thinking.

I doubt that very much.
nk (dbc370) — 12/10/2017 @ 7:55 pm
Filed under… “Stories From the Desk of Vic Tandy, PI

“Not a lotta brainpower went into these young dames’ choice of a spot to soak up the sun. They thought a roof would be a great spot to catch some rays, and hey, if you’re going to get some sun why not do it topless? An excellent choice in a private community but… this spot was located just off the main highway through a one stoplight town. I was hired to set up surveillance of the beautiful, young wife of the mayor, an old, crusty prick who suspected infidelity. There was an aerial phone cable lead that ran behind a large farmhouse that sat on thirty five acres of corn. I parked my van behind a blackberry hedge and grabbed my hard hat, linesman’s belt, binoculars and climbing spikes and slowly creeped onto the property. Climbing quietly up the pole, I belted in and trained my binoculars on the farmhouse. I saw some movement on the roof and watched as the shapely young wife walked over to her chaise lounge, her large breastesses moving under her blouse like two fat little boys, wrestling under a blanket. She removed her blouse reached down and grabbed something on the small patio table… she turned and I soon realized she’d picked up her own pair of binoculars and trained them on me. I grabbed the pole like Sylvester the cat in a WarnerBrothers cartoon. Damned fresh dames! Oh, sights us PIs see! Some people don’t think things through. I’m one of ‘em… this is Vic Tandy, Private Investigator, signing off for now…”
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:18 pm
Do you like Phil Collins? I’ve been a big fan ever since the release of his band’s eponymously named album Genesis. A real standout for me is a song called ABACAB that has an undefinable master quality to it…Christy, take off your robe…it’s great how the song was named initially for the verse, chorus, verse, bridge, verse, chorus structure but it transcended it both sonically and lyrically…Sabrina, remove your dress…the musicianship of Banks, Collins and Rutherford actually inspired me to write a song based around 110 hz and an ABBB song structure, in just 32 short measures I think I captured the droning, monotonous cut and paste quality of a guy we all know…Christy, turn around for me…so have a quick listen on my Soundcloud page if you like, I have other stuff there too…Sabrina, down on your knees…

Soundcloud link
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 8:39 pm
Them theres the police’s Roxanne an early hit (interestingly Stewart Copeland was the son of miles who tried to recruit Nasser for the cia, failed then tried again with baathist exiled in cairo

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11468/brussels-hell
narciso (4346c7) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:25 pm
Did you know?

“Do You Hear What I Hear?” is a song written in October 1962, with lyrics by Noël Regney and music by Gloria Shayne Baker. The pair, married at the time, wrote it as a plea for peace during the Cuban Missile Crisis.Regney had been invited by a record producer to write a Christmas song, but he was hesitant due to the commercialism of the Christmas holiday. It has sold tens of millions of copies and has been covered by hundreds of artists.
Pinandpuller (16b0b5) — 12/10/2017 @ 9:30 pm
Cover it with a pillow:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2017/12/great-jobs-report-bad-news-for-dems-hispanic-unemployment-rate-at-historic-low/
narciso (d1f714) — 12/10/2017 @ 10:16 pm
speaking of the Phil Collins it was so sad for to learn The Pump Room would be taken over by those obnoxious Lettuce people and renamed and they’ve already taken down the gorgeous lighting to make way for whatever mediocrity they’re planning to foist upon this venerable Gold Coast location

but anyways No Jacket Required was named after an incident at Pump where one of Mr. Collins’ retinue had an incident derivative of his jacketlessness

yes that is a true story

i never got to dine there just popped into the cozy cave-like bar one Sunday afternoon with a friend

they were very gracious and let us tromp all over taking pics so I guess I’ve checked that box as much as I’m ever likely to be able to
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/11/2017 @ 1:15 am
What are the chances that a civilian who used incompetent tactics and killed an unarmed man, would be acquitted at trial? But but, the dead man made a furtive move!

I suppose it was miraculous that criminal charges were even pursued at all in the Daniel Shaver case.

I wonder what the inevitable civil lawsuit settlement will amount to?
Brad (98bc31) — 12/11/2017 @ 3:09 am
his widow moved out to Arizona to pursue the case Mr. Brad

the murderous incompetence of the thuggish Mesa popo department’s gonna cost the Mesa taxpayer dearly it’s safe to say
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/11/2017 @ 3:49 am
Be honest, now, and give me a straight answer. Do you think Roy Moore will carry the election by 63% or by 65%?
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 4:55 am
he’s gonna do so good cause David Brooks and Richard Shelby been campaigning for him really hard
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:00 am
I wonder what the inevitable civil lawsuit settlement will amount to?

The family should get a bundle. The money will come from the very same money tree they shake to pay off John Conyers “women” and the thousands of lawyers in all branches of government (and of course the ACLU) who are in constant litigation with each other for their entire careers.

211.Be honest, now, and give me a straight answer. Do you think Roy Moore will carry the election by 63% or by 65%?

nk, I repeat-none of this has been about Roy Moore or Franken, or Weinstein or anybody else but to get Trump. This is the wind-up for the final putsch after the “Russia” debacle fails to overthrow the president. Have you not noticed how every anti-Moore argument also includes a reference to Trump?
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:21 am
How much money will it take to buy these two little girls a father?
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:31 am
In other news:

https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/pipe-bomb-explosion-times-square-subway-station-platform/
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:05 am
Pipe bomb, my fat aunt Fanny. New York police are as credible as New York news media. Or they just don’t make suicide bombers like they used to:

A man is in custody after detonating an small explosive in a tunnel near the Port Authority Bus Terminal, police said

A law enforcement official tells The Associated Press that a man had a pipe bomb strapped to him when it went off on a New York City subway platform.

The explosion happened around 7:30 a.m. Monday.

The person was arrested and has non-life-threatening injuries. Another person on the platform sustained non-life-threatening injuries.

Probably one of the louder firecrackers, like an M80 or cherry bomb.
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:13 am
I didn’t call it a ranch report,
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:17 am
#215 nk was Cliff Notes version of Sammy F.
urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:27 am
Narciso’s Ranch is like todays version of the Alphabet networks Special Report of the 60s 70s and 80s. Cable news and the abuse of the term Breaking News caused the demise of the concept.
urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:31 am
Lets see if this works
http://americandigest.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/eyelies_incpen_freerepublic.gif
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:45 am
He took the primary @ 67 to 33 percent so being Alabammy, I suspect Saddam Hussein exit polls for Moore today.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:51 am
Onward Xhristian Soldat.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a14392719/this-erik-prince-transcript-is-unbelievable/
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:58 am
Wasnt Jeffrey Beauregard Sessions whelped in ‘Bammy?
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:59 am
@215. Meh. Just another GD typically lousy, delay-filled, miserable Monday morning commute through the Port into Manhattan. Tuesday it’ll be a jumper– Wednesday, a blizzard.

Loved it.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:00 am
Morning Joe

The president’s political credibility with his own party is on the line. If the president can’t pull Moore over, even with all of moore’s controversies, he’s going to face a real crisis within the Republican party, my sources tell me. He went there in the robo call, the rally in Pensacola. he has put himself into the center of the political calculation of whatever happens tomorrow.”
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:10 am
219… loved that, Hoagie! cBS…

Esquire and joe Scarborough wowzers, RearAdmiral Bunzbeenburning!
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:18 am
Its weak tea, coronello not even oolong as for morning morning joke, with guildenstern down for the count, its not as fun
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:27 am
Patterico, thank you for taking the time to write all of this out.

Seconded, this was a very educational post. Many thanks.
JP (aa4555) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:28 am
t a thorough sum up of the issues, a tragedy for all involved,
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:35 am
We need to change the law on the use of deadly force that results in death when self-defense is claimed. From “reasonably believes” to “was in danger in actual fact”. A reasonable belief when there was no danger in actual fact should only reduce the degree of the offense, the way an unreasonable belief does now. When you kill somebody, you better be right.
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:50 am
The Party Formerly Known as Democrat has squandered a bit of political capital trying to sink Roy Moore on a 40 year old she said/he said campaign with dubious evidential support. Basically the only people who bought the scenario were those who wanted to because they hate Moore anyway, regardless. So after Moore wins they may either set up one more Republican for the she said campaign or begin the revival of Franken based on “Well, if Moore can be elected and he’s a child rapist and genocidal murderer then there is no reason for Franken to resign”. That was the whole reason Franken didn’t actually resign, he said he was going to resign notably after this election. See? You noticed how Franken’s phony non-resignation speech in which he did not apologize, he did not take responsibility but all he did was bad mouth Moore and Trump. Everything the left does is calculated to deceive.

The leftist quislings need to do something with the phony Russia investigation. It’s been going on almost two years now and people realize the difference between an investigation and a scheme waiting for some punishable act to occur. They can’t just indict for tax fraud or mail fraud and declare victory. They called it treason so they better come up with a traitor or it will be them who’s goose will be cooked.

All on all it seems the Dems would rather destroy the Republic than share it and that’s become okay with me. I’m tired of listening to their constant whining like spoiled little girls. They need to leave either voluntarily or by force.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:56 am
As long as I’m secretary of state of Alabama, you’re going to have to show some initiative to become a registered voter.”

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/12/the-republican-overseeing-the-alabama-election-doesnt-think-voting-should-be-easy/
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:56 am
The former Party known as Republican has squandered their last political shekels on Trump/Moore. Wave GOODBYE to them as they flush themselves down the crapper.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:59 am
Shelby smells the Folgers coffee.

http://www.al.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/12/our_view_conservatives_should.html
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:01 am
Yes its all kabuki or noh theatre, embezzlement of Gloria wise clubs and voter fraud should have been grounds for removal:
http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/11/becerra-tried-to-block-server-admin-over-red-flags-but-logins-continued-with-muted-reaction/?utm_source=site-share
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:05 am
BWAAAA-HAAAAAA!

“And the vibrant economy through his shear force of his will on one hand and his deregulatory pen in the other.”
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:07 am
Several women who have accused President Trump of sexual harassment and assault will call for a congressional investigation into the allegations at a press conference Monday. A press release from Brave New Films late Sunday said the women will share firsthand accounts of Trump’s alleged “groping, fondling, forcibly kissing, humiliating, and harassing women.” The event will be streamed live at 10:30 a.m. ET by Brave New Films, which released a video last month detailing allegations against Trump. NBC News host Megyn Kelly is also due Monday to host three women who have accused Trump of sexual misconduct. Trump has repeatedly denied the allegations made against him during his presidential campaign, but the issue has taken on new relevance in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein scandal. U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley on Sunday said all women accusing men of sexual misconduct “should be heard”—even if the accusations are leveled against the president. “Women who accuse anyone should be heard,” Haley said on CBS’ Face the Nation. “I know that he was elected, but you know, women should always feel comfortable coming forward. And we should all be willing to listen to them.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-accusers-to-demand-probe-at-monday-press-conference
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:46 am
Well I think we should have enemies of our enemy as friend. Just temporarily, until we send Neocons to the Hague.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/12/11/16759130/truce-left-right-resistance-wittes-kristol
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:51 am
With rhetoric as spewed by stanky Vox and the naval officer of record, be prepared to stay in the permanent minority, although the neos too need to buck up and do as Ben Nighthorse Campbell and many more southern Dems did from ’64 to today.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:56 am
Lefty M00nbats, get teh motkump out!
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:58 am
Neocons could be utilized the same way they contorted Yeltsin with the same back door integrity. We need them but only as ball-gagged partners.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:59 am
But we don’ nee’ no steenking Birfers
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:02 am
Well I think we should have enemies of our enemy as friend. Just temporarily, until we send Neocons to the Hague.

You leftists always end up imprisoning or murdering your political opposition. Just winning elections isn’t good enough for tyrants. Amusingly, you guys just stick a name tag on people without knowing what it is. One day it’s alt-right the next neocon, the next whatever comes up that sounds “evil” but unspecified. So I guess the Hague is your “neoauschwitz”.

If the enemy of your enemy is your friend I hope you like lamb and not bacon. But I guarantee it won’t end well for you.
Rev.Hoagie® (6bbda7) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:02 am
Technically it was summers (whose no ones version of a neocon) road gang, Sachs schrieber et al who scuppered the deal.
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:03 am
How did Lock her up! work out for you Hoagie?
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:04 am
Lefty ally ISIS supporter lonechihuahua lights M-80 in NYC… film at 11…
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:07 am
With zebley, strzok page mccabe comey et al, running interference for red queen how do you think?
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:08 am
Rear Admiral Bunzbeenburning has been brought up on charges of onanism and premature motkumpulation…
Colonel Haiku (820854) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:11 am
At least bombers prove to be dumb fu*ks

Idiocracy isn’t always a bad thing.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:11 am
Surprised y’all haven’t been chanting your Hosannas on Obama for being black while President.

String him up!
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:15 am
Burnie Bros never seem to understand that while they root for Islam and other totalitarian regimes, those nuts always try to blow them up.

Another attack in NYC. Keep plucking (sic) that chicken.
NJRob (b00189) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:38 am
245.How did Lock her up! work out for you Hoagie?

Lock who up? What does that mean? Are you saying I suggested the woman who accused Moore be locked up?
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:47 am
Patterico, the reason the jury acquitted the shooting cop was because the jury was picked to acquit. The Defense counsel was the only lawyer in the courtroom doing his job (to include the judge).
Steve Malynn (296daf) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:48 am
(contradictory commands) It reminds me of my old boss’s tale of the irascible federal judge (now long departed) for whom he clerked in 1974. One day the courtroom was inappropriately abuzz and not responding to gaveled calls to order, and the judge just Wasn’t Having It. Looking at one set of counsel, he barked, “Be seated and leave the courtroom!”
Mitch (341ca0) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:50 am
You don’t need string em up unexplained hoagie?

Take your vitamins.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:52 am
He was actually a marcher on the good side in those days, ABcubed.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 12/11/2017 @ 10:00 am
On the other hand, this is post 2016 chutzpah:
http://thegrapevine.theroot.com/he-went-viral-because-of-bullying-but-keaton-jones-mot-1821184917
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 12/11/2017 @ 10:11 am
” •2) The police officer’s instructions were absurd and contradictory. ”

Which makes people firing on the basis of them criminally liable, because they have no excuse for taking them seriously.
Tom Perkins (fa7262) — 12/11/2017 @ 10:25 am
To me, the video alone is not necessarily enough. You need full context — the kind of context that you lack, because you did not see the trial.

all you needed was a couple youtubes to decide Mr. Wintrich was a dangerous hyper-violent nutjob

and yet the legal system what carefully weighed the evidence came to a vastly different conclusion
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/11/2017 @ 11:55 am
217. urbanleftbehind (b69296) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:27 am

#215 nk was Cliff Notes version of Sammy F.

I;ve been telling people, the remaining, or new, terrorists don’t know how to build bombs any more, because you can’t learn that over the Internet. Either the bomb will explode prematurely, or it will something of a dud.
Sammy Finkelman (69aa73) — 12/11/2017 @ 12:45 pm
215. (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 6:13 am

Or they just don’t make suicide bombers like they used to

They don’t. They really don’t.

All the few suicide bomb builders near Israel have been killed long ago, and they are on;y present in Nigeria and Afghanistan/Pakistan I think. Could be maybe one or two other theaters, but they are extinct in Gaza, in Europe and they never spread to the United States.

Building a bomb like that is a skill, not easily taught, or put into words. That’s true for other kinds of bombs as well.
Sammy Finkelman (69aa73) — 12/11/2017 @ 1:00 pm
I said the people who shot Shavers were thinking he had a suicide belt. Maybe that’s not exactly right, but they stupidly considered him highly dangerous, more dangerous than any carefully thinking person should have thought, and basically, they were only going through the motions of prompting him to surrender. They had no actual plan for how he could surrender.

The only reason they didn’t shoot him on the spot – as indeed happened with Stephen Paddock, although he was already dead – was that police regulations called for attempting to arrest someone, so they complied with the letter of the law, sort of.

If they would have deserved acquittal on all charges if they had shot him without giving him a any chance to surrender, then they would in this case. What happened added nothing to justify it any more than that scenario, except that Shavers could have mad himself more guilty. but he didn’t..
Sammy Finkelman (69aa73) — 12/11/2017 @ 1:01 pm
Here’s the thing – open carry is legal in Arizona. The mere possession of a rifle in public is not a crime. There had been no crime – no shooting, no one was being threatened with a rifle – yet the police response was this hyperaggressive showdown with an unarmed man. Why? Any time someone reports that there’s someone in possession of a rifle, it justifies this kind of over-the-top response?

Why are police in America held to lower standards when it comes to the use of deadly force than American soldiers and Marines patrolling in war zones?
radar (14e3a6) — 12/11/2017 @ 1:18 pm
Back at the ranch:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mlcalderone/status/940326477446381569/photo/1
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 2:37 pm
In other news:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12/11/wife-demoted-doj-official-worked-for-firm-behind-anti-trump-dossier.html
narciso (d1f714) — 12/11/2017 @ 2:40 pm
#262

Exactly!
Brad (98bc31) — 12/11/2017 @ 3:42 pm
Widow of Daniel Shaver sues for $75 Million. Old story dated from January.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2017/01/19/widow-seeks-75-million-fatal-mesa-police-shooting-husband/96804902/?from=new-cookie
Brad (98bc31) — 12/11/2017 @ 3:45 pm
262. radar (14e3a6) — 12/11/2017 @ 1:18 pm

Why are police in America held to lower standards when it comes to the use of deadly force than American soldiers and Marines patrolling in war zones?

Because there’s a goal of zero casualties whenit comes to police.
Sammy Finkelman (69aa73) — 12/11/2017 @ 3:57 pm
I spent 6 months feeding Somalis in 1993, we went door to door disarming fighters. Somehow managed not to shoot unarmed civilians while sorting out which Somali tribe was allowed to carry an AK, and which was only allowed to carry a sidearm. Trading kids MREs for unexploded mortar and rocket shells. Every day we escorted a convoy of 5-tons trucks with relief supplies to distribution points – we staged Marines on the trucks with ax handles to keep the trucks from being swamped or pilfered while in route. And didn’t shoot them. We followed rules of engagement designed to serve and actually create peace out of chaos in Somalia. (By the way, it was the UN that F’ed us in Somalia, if you want to know why the chaos reigned/s there for another generation.)

And a cop with a rifle shoots a man on his belly from 10 feet. 5 times. In the US. And this punk gets off.

I do not buy for a single second the excuse “he was scared”. No, he was looking to be a hero.
Steve Malynn (cb0ada) — 12/11/2017 @ 4:14 pm
It’s not a tragedy, it’s an atrocity.
Steve Malynn (cb0ada) — 12/11/2017 @ 4:19 pm
I tip my cover to you Steve. Exemplary service makes my day.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/11/2017 @ 4:21 pm
229 We need to change the law on the use of deadly force that results in death when self-defense is claimed. From “reasonably believes” to “was in danger in actual fact”. A reasonable belief when there was no danger in actual fact should only reduce the degree of the offense, the way an unreasonable belief does now …

I don’t agree with this at all. If someone intent on “death by cop” points an unloaded gun at a police officer why should this be treated any differently than if he points a loaded gun?
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:19 pm
Because if the yellowbellies with badges don’t like it, they should go to beauty school and become hairdressers?
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:30 pm
Because you get a travesty like the murder of Daniel Shaver?
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:32 pm
Like the murder of Philando Castille?
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:32 pm
Like the murder of Justine Damond?
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:33 pm
The fact of the matter is — just ask any cop or prosecutor — that the standard I propose is applied to civilians in practice. Look the prosecution of George Zimmerman as one glaring example. It is cops who knowingly and intentionally kill a person who get the “reasonably believes” benefit.
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:44 pm
I’m late but I wanted to say thanks for an interesting post. I agree with a lot of it. That Sergeant screaming at the guy has blood on his hands.

Because if the yellowbellies with badges don’t like it, they should go to beauty school and become hairdressers?

nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 5:30 pm

this attitude is directly responsible for low quality hires in the field.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:54 pm
you did a nonny sequiny thing
happyfeet (28a91b) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:15 pm
Actually, I’ve been thinking about what Steve Mallyn said and I think he’s right. Brailsford was not scared. He knew he had nothing to be scared of. He was just itching for an excuse to murder Shaver. The sergeant’s contradictory orders did not confuse or upset him — they set up Shaver for him.
nk (dbc370) — 12/11/2017 @ 8:59 pm
Ben, I want to make clear, I was a good Marine, not a hero. Everyone in my unit lived up to our requirements – there was an incident where a Gunnery Sergeant from another unit improperly shot a Somali climbing on his truck to steal supplies. The Gunny was tried and convicted at Court Martial, his career ended in prison – blessedly the teenager shot survived, and was sent to the US for medical care.

My further point, COPS should want their bums prosecuted and removed where appropriate in order for them to BE CREDIBLE. As a High School and College Student in SoCal, and later as a Marine in Camp Pendleton, I watched the cops get more isolated from the population year after year – trust is not there now (has not been since Sheriff Gates).
Steve Malynn (373842) — 12/11/2017 @ 9:27 pm
276… Look the prosecution of George Zimmerman as one glaring example. …

This was a politically inspired travesty. He should never have been prosecuted and was rightfully acquitted. And he faced an actual threat, he wasn’t threatened with a toy gun or something.
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/12/2017 @ 12:08 am
280
Ben, I want to make clear, I was a good Marine, not a hero. Everyone in my unit lived up to our requirements – there was an incident where a Gunnery Sergeant from another unit improperly shot a Somali climbing on his truck to steal supplies. The Gunny was tried and convicted at Court Martial, his career ended in prison – blessedly the teenager shot survived, and was sent to the US for medical care.

Well if you are in the military I guess you are supposed to follow the rules of engagement even if they make no sense. Does supplies here include weapons? Was the teenager sent back to Somali after he was treated?
James B. Shearer (951d11) — 12/12/2017 @ 12:19 am
Supplies were food and clothing. The teenager lost a kidney, he went to DC for treatment, we went back to 29 Palms, have no clue if the youngster was ever sent back to Mogadishu.
Steve Malynn (373842) — 12/12/2017 @ 2:19 am
Chain deportation is the answer. Round these ingrates up and bang em back to Bangladesh.
America deserves a big electrified wall for xmas.
mg (60b0f7) — 12/12/2017 @ 4:01 am
Steve.

I don’t succumb to the dumbing down of the word hero. It should be for extraordinary courage, but I also recognize moral courage has heroes.
Admiral Ben Bunsen Burner (b3d5ab) — 12/12/2017 @ 5:46 am
This is who Mrs ohr had recently worked for

https://fas.org/blogs/secrecy/2011/12/cia_osw/
narciso (d1f714) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:04 am
this attitude is directly responsible for low quality hires in the field.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 12/11/2017 @ 7:54 pm

No it’s not, Dustin. I think affirmative action is directly responsible for the low quality of hires in the field and everywhere else for that matter. When jobs are seen as social experiments for minorities, women, gays and what have you and color or sex become the basis of hiring, quality takes a back seat and not getting the black kids, gay kids, Hispanic kids or alt-gendered kids angry takes the place of who is the best applicant for the job.

Currently the SJW’s are doing to our military what they’ve already done to out teachers, cops and civil servants: finding the worst possible people who fill not the duties of the job but rather the desires and social goals of the left.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:08 am
Well, there is that…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:12 am
It’s a little more subtle than that. By lowering the recruitment and performance requirements so that a 5’2″ 100 lb woman with an IQ of 100 and perpetual PMS can get in and stay in, animals like Brailsford slip through. He probably looked good to the recruiters in comparison to the aforementioned woman.
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:19 am
Steve Malynn makes a great point. As a guy who served in Vietnam I agree with his basic assessment that everything isn’t necessarily settled with a bullet. Even in a war zone. There were many guys I could have shot but didn’t and there were many I did shoot and don’t regret shooting. I was there to kill commies not a woman taking care of her family or a kid scrounging for food.

The cops in this case were there to stop a shooting not engage in one.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:26 am
So basically what you’re saying in #290 nk, is that low expectations bleed over the entire enterprise once they are accepted for the purpose of “quotas”? I concur.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:29 am
As the good Rev. notes, my son a 6’1” 175 lb lacrosse player (fastest kid on the team) won’t pass the physical to join the USMC because he has asthma and needs an inhaler on occasion – being “dependent” on a medication renders him non-deployable. But to satisfy the left, the military must accept surgically altered humans who require daily hormone treatments to satisfy their cosmetic preferences – treatments that make them less physically fit to perform military duty. We are living in insane times.
Steve Malynn (373842) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:31 am
BTW, nk the police commissioner of Philadelphia is looking up at a 100 IQ.
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:33 am
Tell me about it Steve Malynn. Here we have psychologically unbalanced males suffering from gender identity disorder who are surgically altered to resemble a female and dosed with hormones to make them think and act like a female, who are then trained in warfare and given the best weapons money can buy. What could possibly go wrong not only in the field but when these already confused individuals return to Peoria or Yorba Linda with PTSD? And join the local police force to make a quota?
Rev.Hoagie (6bbda7) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:47 am
We serve and protect. Oink, oink! (Story about paw-lees and 11-year old girl. Click at own risk.)
nk (dbc370) — 12/12/2017 @ 6:49 pm

12/9/2017

The Shooting of Daniel Shaver: The Law Enforcement Perspective

296 Responses to “The Shooting of Daniel Shaver: The Law Enforcement Perspective”

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