Patterico's Pontifications

7/8/2017

Stephen Hayes: Trump Caved to Putin

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 2:00 pm



So yesterday a wily former KGB agent got over two hours to have a crack at a simpleton who knows the nation’s most prized state secrets. What could go wrong?

Stephen Hayes at the Weekly Standard says, a lot went wrong. Indeed, he says that Trump caved to Putin yesterday.

Hayes complains that Trump let Russia skate entirely on its efforts to interfere with the United States presidential election. But where Hayes really hits home is in his criticism of the meeting as it related to Syria:

The embarrassment wasn’t limited to interference in U.S. elections. There was Syria, too, where Tillerson claimed that American and Russian “objectives are exactly the same.”

It is absurd to claim that our objectives in Syria—where the United States has called for the end of the Assad regime that Russia is supporting—are exactly the same. Forget being identical; in most cases, they aren’t even coincidental.

. . . .

[I]n April the U.S. government accused Russia of complicity in an unprovoked chemical weapons attack on innocent civilians. And on Friday, the secretary of State claimed that America and Russia have exactly the same objectives in Syria.

And then Tillerson went even further. On matters where the United States and Russia have different views, he said, it may be that the Russians (who are actively backing a dictator slaughtering his own people) have got “the right approach and we’ve got the wrong approach.” Imagine for a moment the reaction from Republicans if John Kerry had made such a claim.

At PowerLine, Paul Mirengoff says that Hayes’s “Trump caved” characterization is “unfair.” I found Mirengoff’s argument less than fully convincing, though — especially this part:

Hayes also complains about what he thinks went down between Trump and Putin regarding Syria. He cites Tillerson’s statement that American and Russian “objectives are exactly the same.”

The statement is, as Hayes says, absurd. But there’s little reason to think that Trump, or even Tillerson, believes it.

Color me skeptical when your argument is: don’t worry about the “absurd” thing our Secretary of State just said. Probably neither he nor the President actually believes it.

But there’s a ceasefire! Isn’t that a good thing? Sure — if you think Vladimir Putin is a honest fella. Garry Kasparov, who knows a thing or two about Putin, has this to say:

To Hayes’s analysis above, I would add the shameful spectacle of a man who has ordered journalists to be murdered pointing at a group of journalists and asking Trump: “These are the ones who insulted you?” Not only is this apparent confirmation of the prediction before the meeting that Trump would whine to Putin about “FAKE NEWS!!” but it is also, to put it mildly, creepy and chilling given Putin’s history. Putin might have Trumpers fooled — but he knows that at least some of the journalists know what Putin did to journalists like Anna Politkovskaya.

I know many will say: hey, but Trump said tough stuff and took tough action regarding Russia before the meeting. Well, sure. Trump is fundamentally a coward who caters to his audience. He talks about “radical Islamic terrorism” in Warsaw, but not Saudi Arabia. He says in Warsaw: “We treasure the rule of law and protect the right to free speech and free expression” — but when he speaks face to face with Putin, a man who kills journalists who engage in free speech and expression, he tells him he won’t meddle in Putin’s domestic affairs.

This cowardice sends a message to someone like Putin, who has sized up American leaders before. Putin determined that Bush and Obama were weaklings, and he has no doubt come to the same conclusion about Trump.

Expect aggression from Putin during Trump’s presidency. Yesterday’s meeting assured it.

UPDATE: Commenter shipwreckedcrew points out that the comment from Putin “These are the ones who insulted you?” was made “ahead of” the two-hour meeting. In the post, I said that the statement was “apparent confirmation of the prediction before the meeting that Trump would whine to Putin about ‘FAKE NEWS!!'” Since the comment was made ahead of the meeting, it was not right to call it “confirmation” of what they discussed in the meeting. It would be more accurate to say that the comment showed that Putin was aware of Trump’s attitude towards the press, and willing to exploit it in public. I find laughable the notion that Putin didn’t exploit as well in their private meeting. I find equally laughable the notion that Trump — who obsesses over his purportedly unfair treatment at the hands of the press — didn’t whine about the press during their lengthy meeting. In fact, I’d bet my house on it.

UPDATE x2: The same link shows that when Putin made the comment, Trump “chuckled.”

Scum.

[Cross-posted at RedState and The Jury Talks Back.]

417 Responses to “Stephen Hayes: Trump Caved to Putin”

  1. Expect aggression from Putin during Trump’s presidency. Yesterday’s meeting assured it.

    Given his track record, that’s likely a safe bet for all fields of play.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  2. It’s one thing to reach accommodations with union thugs. It’s just cash and each party has a direct interest in getting along enough to build. Dealing with the latest Stalin in the same manner will lead to misery for millions and death to many, many thousands.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  3. we all live in a putin-centric dream

    he lives in our head and we’re pawns in his scheme

    and Steve Hayes

    says he’s a sneak

    that we must abjure

    his doublespeak

    but Mr. Trump says hold my beer

    I can handle this

    be of good cheer!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  4. Not ‘caved’ as a postscript, rather ABSURD in 24 point BOLD headlines, but the media keeps saying he’s mean.

    They aren’t helping us or themselves.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  5. That didn’t take long, Ed from SFV. You may have set a new left wing record for screaming…..

    https://youtu.be/eXWhbUUE4ko

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  6. Good comment, Ed. Ignore him.

    DRJ (15874d)

  7. Americans are naive.

    A Nigerian co-worker used to bum a cig from me years ago…”Gimme a cigarette ”
    he would casually ask a vendor. So I asked rhetorically, “You don’t ask for one because it makes you weak”

    “Exactly”

    Many cultures are so competitive that largesse or benevolence are seen as weakness. Russia is such a place and our ignorant Fool has no idea wtf I am talking about.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  8. That didn’t take long, Ed from SFV. You may have set a new left wing record for screaming…..

    That comment added nothing to the discussion.

    Patterico (a048af)

  9. If you were POTUS, what would your foreign policy hold for Russia?

    Lenny (5ea732)

  10. where’s the proof for CNN fake news propaganda slut Jim Sciutto’s assertion that this ever actually happened?

    “These are the ones who insulted you?” Putin to Trump as he points to reporters

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  11. It’s a video. Are you allowed to watch videos hf?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  12. yes yes it’s a video

    but you can’t see or hear what the Vadimir one says to the other one

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  13. *Vladimir* one i mean (in the video he’s the one on the viewer’s left)

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  14. Can’t hear or refuse to hear. There is a difference.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  15. Like “how old is the Earth”

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  16. When you hear that question,what’s your immediate response?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  17. i can’t hear it i promise

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  18. and i can’t find any proof that Mr. Putin ever said “These are the ones who insulted you?”

    this is fake news!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  19. “this is fake news!”

    “There you go again…”

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  20. Eventually your anti-sciency devotion to gog will loom large scabby skeet.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  21. Did captcha place gog instead of god? I digress..

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  22. healthy skeptical is healthy

    everyone knows that cause it’s aphoristic

    and i’m very skeptical that the Putin said something goony and perfectly narrative confirming like are these the ones who insulted you

    when something is too good to be true guess what

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  23. Ill shut up now patterico.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  24. Stephen Hayes, Bill Kristol’s butt boy, does as Never Trumper Billy commands. What a clown show WS has become. I hope their few subscribers enjoy the fiction.

    Billy Crisholes Weight Loss Trainer (e7cce3)

  25. At some point we need to finally acknowledge that the Russian/Soviet involvement protecting the Syria regime and earlier the Afghanistan has nothing to do with pushing an ideology, and these countries are not important to Russia’s economy so they don’t have that agenda either. Both regimes were seen by the Russians/Soviets as bulwarks against the kind of people who flew planes into the world trade center. Russia is a lot closer to this region than the US and they have an extremely unwieldy border. IF you think US conservatives are insane about border security, look at a map of the two countries and see who should be most concerned.

    Hell, us Americans can build a wall. Not possible with Russia. We need to promote a good neighbor policy between Russia and its border nations. Because it’s the right thing to do unless you have an agenda to make Russia a terrorist infested hell hole. It would be good for the Russians to admit this concern but it makes them look weak so they won’t.

    Yes, they overreach such as Crimea which was economic apart from their military concerns. That needs to be resolved.

    jcurtis (6da89f)

  26. Trump won’t be impeached. He will walk away from his chaos as he does his legion of failed bizness ventures. He has no integrity or sense of conscience so do what would commit to the Office any better than he honors his lendetds/constituents

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  27. Lenders/constituents

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  28. Trump: Speaks like Putin is our friend, bombed a Russian ally, favors drilling for gas and oil to feed a Russia-dependent Europe, and backs anti-missiles for Poland.

    Obama: Scolded Putin, while doing none of the above to weaken Russia or help Europe.

    Which one “caved to Russia”?

    David Pittelli (c51465)

  29. 8.That didn’t take long, Ed from SFV. You may have set a new left wing record for screaming…..

    That comment added nothing to the discussion.
    Patterico (a048af) — 7/8/2017 @ 2:57 pm

    I’m sorry Patterico. It won’t happen again.

    Rev.Hoagie® (630eca)

  30. A weakling? Anyone who would even meet with a man like Putin is a weakling.

    Steve D (9e97f6)

  31. Steve Hayes was serious
    Y wrong about the Arab spring, his reporting re not only Benghazi but most of north and west Africa should have wrought some retrospection.

    narciso (d1f714)

  32. FBI: Flight attendant broke wine bottle over man’s head

    This is how the alt-right amuse themselves as the Dicktator welshes on promises

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  33. So how would the critics operate in and around Syria without finding a way to operate transparently with the other major powers? All ceasefires are temporary. This ceasefire seems intended to reorganize forces within the battlespace to more clearly defined areas. To operators that’s a good thing. The risk of conflict between Russian and American forces is smaller today than yesterday. That’s a good thing. I remain skeptical and pessimistic about the eventual outcome because there is no good outcome but everyday jihadis are sent home to their maker is a good day. I would trust Tillerson and Mattis more than the expert scribes.

    crazy (11d38b)

  34. United States of America—and Russia, China, North Korea and Bashar al Assad’s Syria—have “a distorted vision of the world”–(“una visione distorta del mondo,” as reportetd in Italian by La Repubblica).

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  35. Jesuits…you can’t live with them or without.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  36. ugh this is no good

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  37. I think this is a good signhttps://www.themaven.net/humanrightsfoundation/americas/LS9vbCZ4n0KEyEVKOxTPww

    narciso (d1f714)

  38. So …what really happened? Putin took off his shirt?

    I hate to disagree with Beldar, but I don’t trust Tillerson the least little bit when it comes to Russia. He does strike me as the kind of businessman who will sell Putin the rope with which to hang us.

    nk (dbc370)

  39. here are comment Mr. Beldar made in his own words on the other thread

    in this comment, which are below, you can see the workings of a finely-tuned mind seeking truth in an imperfect whirl:

    I’m usually a fan of Hayes, but his reaction to Tillerson’s comments is hysterical, and not in the “ha-ha-that’s-funny” sense.

    Hayes makes the mistake of taking bland statements made after a meeting at absolute face value. He surely should know better than that, and I suspect, actually, that he does. Key hysteria:

    Tillerson reported that after the two men had a “robust and lengthy exchange on the subject,” Putin “denied such involvement, as I think he has in the past.” Putin’s denials are false, of course, and the offenses are grave. Russia’s election meddling is part of a longer pattern of provocation largely ignored by the Obama administration and now tolerated by Trump. But the president apparently didn’t want to let reality intrude on his desire for better relations (he began his meeting by telling Putin that he was “honored” to meet him) and Tillerson didn’t seem to care. “So, more work to be done on that regard,” Tillerson said, dismissively.

    Set aside as yet unproven allegations of Trump-Russia collusion. The available facts are deeply troubling. Russia waged a persistent, hostile campaign against the United States in an effort to affect the outcome of the election – or at least influence perceptions of it. And the current administration doesn’t seem to care.

    Hayes has fallen for the part of the Leftie narrative on this — a narrative that is indeed crafted and intended to be anti-Trump (as it would be anti-Bush if Dubya were still in office, or anti-Rubio if it were Rubio instead of Trump) because they’re Lefties.

    The Russians have been trying to affect — specifically, to selectively promote or disrupt — foreign governments as long as there has been a “Russia,” certainly going back to the Czars. There’s no reason to be more “deeply troubled” by what they did in 2016 than by what they did in 2012 or 2008 or 2004 or 2000 or … all the way back to at least 1781, when fourteen-year-old John Quincy Adams went to the courts of the Czars as translator and aide to Ambassador Francis Dana. You think the Czars agents were unaware of who his father was, or the role he’d played in the Revolution, or the role he was likely to play in the nascent nation’s future? You think the Czar declined to play the Great Game with this young POTUS-to-be?

    Russia is a real enemy. They’d do more if they could; they do all they can; this go-around they lucked into the proverbial birds-nest on the ground when they got into the DNC’s servers and Podesta’s emails. Yeah, there’s probably some tiny group of marginal voters for whom the revelations from those leaks was the “last straw” that kept them home instead of voting for Hillary, but was that a greater or lesser number of voters than those deterred by rainy skies or the latest Seinfeld re-runs? We’ll never know, but I doubt it.

    Presumably Hayes would have the SecState make a ringing denunciation of the threat from the Russian Bear in the presser after Trump’s first meeting. That would surely make Tillerson a very different sort of SecState than any going back to Jefferson.

    When I described myself as comforted by Tillerson’s comments, that described a subjective reaction on my part, a mitigation in part (only in part) of my severe concern that Trump, on his own, is utterly outmatched by Putin or any other rival world leader who’s capable of coherent thought and planning on anything besides his own personal popularity as reflected in tomorrow’s cable TV news shows. My comfort is based on my hope, my presumption (which I think is a reasonable one), that the private counsel Tillerson gave Trump before the meeting, the assistance he rendered during it, and the private counsel Tillerson gave Trump after the meeting, is very different from the deliberately bland diplo-speak Tillerson delivered in public after the meeting.

    This distinction appears to have utterly eluded Hayes, even as a possibility, and he’s usually much sharper than that.

    Hayes is probably right that Trump doesn’t much care about Russian attempts to interfere in U.S. elections, no more than Trump much cares about SCOTUS picks or the Second Amendment or any of a thousand other policy issues. Trump cares about Trump, and about those issues only if and to the extent that any of them impinge upon his ego and brand. But that was equally true before and after the Putin meeting.

    Hayes doesn’t know, I don’t know, and no one reading this blog knows what was actually said in the meeting, or how it was perceived by Putin. As I wrote in my original comment (#254) about the meeting, I am indeed very worried by how badly Trump is likely to be outclassed and outfoxed by an adversary like Putin in a one-on-one meeting like this. I will not be surprised if it turns out that the meeting was as disastrous as Kennedy’s 1961 summit with Khrushchev, which brought the world to the brink of thermonuclear war a year later in Cuba. But I don’t yet have a basis to confirm that my fears are justified, nor a basis to confirm that they weren’t — except that Tillerson’s performance after the meeting was the kind of general diplo-speak that I would likewise have expected from SecStates for Bush-43 or -41, or from Reagan, or from Eisenhower. Tillerson does indeed have a long track record of successful dealings with Putin and Russia, and at least from public appearances he is not panicked. So I choose to find that reassuring, despite all the known unknowns (and, of course, the unknown unknowns).
    Beldar (fa637a) — 7/8/2017 @ 1:32 pm

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  40. Greetings:

    i think that I could take Putin’s “interference” in our last Presidential election more seriously if someone would deign to inform us all what exactly, or even close to exactly, that “interference” was. Six months of whining and investigating and caviling, shouldn’t some description have come to the fore ???

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  41. hah

    it appears sleazy corrupt fbi pansyboy Robert Mueller needs a small army to answer that question Mr. 40

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  42. Apparently a pfishing attack that exfiltrated data, curiously this happened after guccifer had backdoored into red queens own server through said vicious, which revealed the stovepipe
    from drumheller and murray

    narciso (d1f714)

  43. Maybe I’m reading too many pulp mysteries, but my suspicion is that neither side wants a serious investigation that will really get to the bottom of the election meddling. Trump being afraid that it will conclusively prove Russian meddling; the Democrats being afraid that it will show that there was none worth mentioning or, worse, that it was less the Russians and more rogue Democrats who hated Hillary for squeezing out Bernie.

    What happened to Obama’s “tapp” and the Susan Rice “unmaskings”, BTW? Both sides shut up about it, because neither side was looking good?

    nk (dbc370)

  44. It didn’t serve neither burrow or Conway’s purposes neither the fabulous wan bros
    https://mobile.twitter.com/CuffyMeh/status/883801585238802433?p=v

    narciso (d1f714)

  45. Conway from Texas, instead we have phantom memos from comedy and I surmise tait

    narciso (d1f714)

  46. With apologies to Tom Lehrer:

    First you get down on your knees,
    Thank God it’s not Hillary,
    Bow your head with great respect,
    Cry Reaganesque, Reaganesque, Reaganesque!

    Do whatever slams you want, though
    Once you’ve cleared them with Bill Kristol.
    Everybody take a swipe
    At the P and his hot wife,
    Doin’ the Donald Trump rag.

    Get in line in that processional,
    Next to Rex the gas professional,
    There, the Steve who’s media savvy’ll
    Tell you if your fake’s original.
    If it is, try playin’ it smarta,
    Mak’em whine like Jim Acosta,
    Two, four, six, eight,
    Time to bring up Watergate!

    So get down upon your knees,
    Thank God it’s not Hillary,
    Bow your head with great respect,
    Cry Reaganesque, Reaganesque, Reaganesque!

    Make a cross and shout an Amen,
    Islam hated Ronald Reagan,
    Ave Melania,
    Gee that looks good on ya,
    Gettin’ ecstatic an’
    Sorta dramatic an’
    Doin’ the Donald Trump rag!

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  47. The real threat is undeterrable regimes with nukes on missiles and submarines. That problem can not be solved peacefully without convincing China and Russia to work with US to undo what they have supported and assisted. We’re unlikely to like the price anymore than they do but the alternative is even more troubling.

    crazy (11d38b)

  48. Remember Jason Leopold blockbuster memo that was going to nail Thomas white for enron, well guess what, there was no such memo.

    narciso (d1f714)

  49. Where is the DNC server today? My sources tell me that it’s on Putin’s desk at the Kremlin.

    jcurtis (6da89f)

  50. Curiously this came through the outfit that commissioned the dossier:
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/trumps-son-son-in-law-met-with-kremlin-linked-lawyer-in-june-2016

    narciso (d1f714)

  51. Referring to one of the best of national reviews thinker
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/07/trump-the-wests-suicide-hotline.php

    narciso (d1f714)

  52. Tillerson may have been telling the objective truth when he said that we and Russia have identical interests in Syria. Hollande wanted Assad out and Obama wanted to oblige Hollande, but why should we involve ourselves with regime change in one of France’s former colonies? Again. There is also the Kurdish/Turkish problem. Why should we not care about nothing more than Syria not being a terrorist base for attacks against us and our allies in the region?

    nk (dbc370)

  53. Because there is alto of money and power, that has been committed to both sides, Syria was the Spanish civil ear between gulf states And turkey on one side and. Russia and Iran on the other

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. Back in the 80s for instance the outfit behind the Salvadoran guerrillas were also behind the alarm scare, the guerillas political arm cispes was tied to bombing in maryland

    narciso (d1f714)

  55. What are the objectives of the US in Syria in the first place? Should the US continue advocating Assad’s removal? That’s what Obama and Hillary advocated in 2011.

    To what lengths would the US go to see this out now? What do you think we should do? Are we committing men to the battle? Equipment? The US tried to train so called moderate rebels to no avail.

    It is one thing to enforce a red line on the use of chemical weapons (to which Obama reneged). But it is another thing to go to war with someone that already has committed such support to Assad.

    And what happens if Assad is removed? Will the world be left with an unstable state? How is that working out in Iraq and Libya?

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  56. Yes, and there’s also Israel and the monarchies. Israel is still in a state of war with Syria on at least two fronts — Golan Heights and Lebanon — and it is to Israel’s advantage for it to remain weak, poor and unstable. The monarchies don’t want their people getting the idea that there might be something better out there — they saw what happened to Farouk, Idris and Pahlavi.

    It’s complicated, I agree.

    nk (dbc370)

  57. Hayes wrenches Tillerson’s comments out of context with a deceptive quote to start with. Said Hayes:

    The embarrassment wasn’t limited to interference in U.S. elections. There was Syria, too, where Tillerson claimed that American and Russian “objectives are exactly the same.”

    Said Tillerson (italics mine):Now, I will tell you we spent a very, very lengthy period on Syria, with a great amount of detailed exchange on the agreement we had concluded today — it was announced — but also where we go, and trying to get much greater clarity around how we see this playing out and how Russia sees it playing out, and where do we share a common view and where do we have a difference, and do we have the same objectives in mind.

    And I would tell you that, by and large, our objectives are exactly the same. How we get there, we each have a view. But there’s a lot more commonality to that than there are differences. So we want to build on the commonality, and we spent a lot of time talking about next steps. And then where there’s differences, we have more work to get together and understand. Maybe they’ve got the right approach and we’ve got the wrong approach.

    So there was a substantial amount of time spent on Syria, just because we’ve had so much activity going on with it.If you want to tell me Hayes’ partial quote is fair, that will end our discussion, because it’s shamefully unfair. Indeed, it’s “absurd,” which is not a term I recall having applied to Hayes’ writing in the past.

    As for the rest of it: It’s entirely speculation. I stand on my observations in a comment on the prior post, in which I characterized Hayes’ article as “hysterical.” If the best Hayes, or Patterico, can come up with to support their assertion that “Trump caved” is this misreading of a single line from Tillerson’s presser, color me unimpressed. And frankly, disappointed. Maybe Trump caved, but Tillerson’s comments do not in any way support that categorical — yes, hysterical — characterization.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  58. Mangled a set of blockquote tags there, but the second quote, from the full transcript of Tillerson’s presser, began with “Now, I will tell you …” and ended with “… going on with it.”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  59. Lets not pretend this is easy, mi 6 and dose got general younis to defect, bel hadj had him executed, because that was the only way he could prevail, magarief stuck his neck out and Hillary threw
    Larry them under the bus, in Syria you had a similar dynamic happening

    narciso (d1f714)

  60. Ok, so the objectives were to get to know what the other guy wanted. Sounds good to me. I would also have been happy if he had said to wipe out all terrorists operating in and out of Syria.

    nk (dbc370)

  61. Beldar is absolutely right at 61 and IMO it’s a manifestation resulting from the publication he writes for. You can’t divorce Hayes’ analysis from the fact that the Weekly Standard led the Never Trump chorus in the conservative media.

    Shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  62. #61 puts new light on the Tillerson comment and the phrase fake news.

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  63. Boy, this place gets more like Democratic Underground every day.

    Craig Mc (c8ba9d)

  64. Well, just to show that I can quibble with everyone, swc (#65): Most of the rest of Patterico’s comments about Trump in this post are pretty close to my own general views about him. I don’t have any higher opinion of Trump, in other words, than Hayes or Patterico.

    Where I differ is in claiming that Tillerson’s presser, and in particular his comments about Syria, can be used to support a straight-faced argument that on this particular occasion, “Trump caved.” Tillerson’s comments don’t support that assertion, unless they’re deceptively edited and wrenched out of context, which on this occasion, Hayes did.

    Is it possible that Trump’s comments at this meeting will provoke from Putin the same sort of reaction that Jack Kennedy’s comments at the Vienna 1961 summit provoked from Khrushchev? Absolutely! Do I worry about that, based on my very negative opinion of Trump’s capacity for self-control and effective diplomacy? Yes! Absolutely!

    But did Rex Tillerson, or anyone else who was there at the meeting, say anything that even remotely supports the conclusion that those justifiable fears were in fact realized at this meeting? Nope. Would Tillerson remotely agree with Hayes or Patterico that his (Tillerson’s) comments support the proposition that Trump caved! Absolutely not!

    Whether Tillerson is privately distressed or reassured, none of us knows. I’d gladly play poker against Trump. I don’t think I’d be so eager to play against Tillerson, and I think he’s got as good a poker face as any successful multinational CEO.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  65. The,Atlantic banned me for bringing samozdat to the eloi so not the same.

    narciso (d1f714)

  66. I had a higher opinion of Trump than Hillary.

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  67. 31 & 61- common sense and sanity in a sea of unreasoned, hysterical outrage.

    harkin (7833f6)

  68. And I would simply note for the third time that Patrick has again attributed the comment by Putin about the press and Trump as having validated his post about the NYT story suggesting that they might “bond” over “fake news” when a simple google search reveals that Putin made that comment before the meeting. Thus, it was not the result of Trump “whining by” to Putin on the topic as Patrick has written in both comments and this Post.

    I have plenty of concerns about Trump myself. He wasn’t in my Top 5 GOP choices, but I give him credit for having dispatched two entire political parties on his way to becoming President. That is not the accomplishment of a dope or simpleton, and people underestimate him at their own peril.

    I agree he lack fixed political values or a moral compass – he is the embodiment of an “ends justifies the means” ethos. But I do support the view that he will never get a legitimate and fair evaluation from the dominant media or the political partisans on either side. So he fights back with what he has. It’s not always pretty, and it’s often sloppy, but his option are to use the tools that have worked for him to this point or simply turn turtle like Bush 43 did when the left wing media went after him.

    Commenting on my phone is a pain, so will have more to say on this post later when I have my laptop.

    Shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  69. President Trump continues to exceed expectations.

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  70. And I would simply note for the third time that Patrick has again attributed the comment by Putin about the press and Trump as having validated his post about the NYT story suggesting that they might “bond” over “fake news” when a simple google search reveals that Putin made that comment before the meeting

    I am on my phone and about to watch a concert. Have you provided a link yet as I already requested? If so I will iissue a correction in the morning. If not, get me a link that proves the comment happened before the meeting as I have already asked you to do.

    Patterico (a048af)

  71. So far the number of links you have provided to substantiate your assertion is zero. Plenty of assertion, zero links.

    Out for the night.

    Patterico (a048af)

  72. Yeah – I have such a long history here of making affirmative claims about specific factual issues that only a link which you can follow to verify my representation is sufficient. I’m on my phone too but managed to google search “Putin comment reporters insult trump” and got dozens of sites such as Business Insider where it was reported

    “The leaders were chatting ahead of their two hour meeting when the press was asked to leave the room. As the reporters made their exit, Putin gestured to them and reportedly asked Trump “Theses are the ones who insulted you?” according to a translation from CNN..’s Jim Sciutto. Sciutto tweeted out his translation which became the basis for the press reporting on the exchange.

    It’s not hard to find the truth. What source did you use for the claim you made that the comment came after their meeting? So far you haven’t provided a link.

    Shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  73. Who is more mental NeverTrumpers, Media or Democrats?

    Blah (4a2492)

  74. This story with a subtitled video which purports to show the exchange is from the Independent, and the article does say that it was a photo-op prior to their meeting, and it sounds like it in the video too. (That it was a photo-op, I could not hear what either Putin or Trump said.) I also recognize Tillerson and Lavrov there. http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/putin-jokingly-asks-trump-at-g-20-if-reporters-in-attendance-are-the-ones-hurting-him/article/2628069

    nk (dbc370)

  75. Ship,

    Old lawyer trick to try and force you prove everything you say no matter how obvious but their assertions are always correct.

    Blah (4a2492)

  76. Consider Chechnya at the time the first intervention was proposed it was suggested it would be easy just take out dudayev (youbkboe the way it worked out in Afghanistan almost 20 years before, the spetnaz team failed so they had to go in heavy, the likes of strelkov back from Bosnia was involved in about two years they got their man. By that time basayev who had worked for russia in other conflicts but had turned became public enemy no 1. And khattab soon followed but that happened after the firstvwar.

    narciso (d1f714)

  77. People navel gazing these off the cuff comments remind me of Doctors back in the day analyzing excrement to determine one illness.

    Blah (4a2492)

  78. Funny you should say that, Blah. I have the same feeling when I ask myself “What’s wrong with America?” and I see Trump in the Oval Office.

    nk (dbc370)

  79. Politskayava reAlly came into her own in the second war, sparked by the events in ryazan (The Russian ft benning) this is when the martyrs really came into being, much of the top chechen political leadership including vandarbichev was wiped out in a neutral country but this sparked retaliation in part by the black widow who took out the ptesenyvwatlotd kadyeovs father.

    narciso (d1f714)

  80. Remember when that Black Congressman said the Tea Party folks called him a n***** and yet not one camera or phone could validate it?

    Worse yet his friends all jumped up and down to say it happened but magically nothing “wiretapped”

    And I thought they were insane but NeverTrumpers are surpassing that inanity

    Blah (4a2492)

  81. #84 u can hate POTUS without being serial liars and distortionists.

    Unfortunately, tha seems to be about seventy five percent of the hate.

    I hated his Syria thing … but that an imagining all these conspiracies is another

    Blah (4a2492)

  82. Present warlord kadyrov, along the wY there are a series of suspicious events including the nord ist theatre siege and bedlam. That she was a witness to. This kind of blowback is What one feared would happen if russia intervened in Syria and same thing could happen to us.

    narciso (d1f714)

  83. First, I don’t hate him. I don’t think a person like him should be President and it’s not the same thing as hate. I don’t think I am fit to be President, either.

    Second, to the extent my jokes and insults are “lies”, they are obviously so and no reasonable person could take them as literal statements of objective fact. Not any more than an SNL skit.

    Third, I praise him when he does things I like, including making the Left wet their pants; and when unfair attacks against him offend my own sense of justice I defend him.

    Anyhow … we’re all just talking here.

    nk (dbc370)

  84. #76

    Hey

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGRV8gqRNkI&feature=youtu.be
    harkin (7833f6) — 7/8/2017 @ 8:22 pm


    I can’t wait for Trump to tweet this and for CNN to threaten to expose the person who made it.

    AZ Bob (f7a491)

  85. You know that’s the practical application, and this is why we lose. The dems never Give up one of their own unless the alternative is worse for us, stringer over Spitzer deblasio over weiner. They nuke every Republican within a hundred miles. Counting on some flaw they might exploit

    narciso (d1f714)

  86. “The leaders were chatting ahead of their two hour meeting when the press was asked to leave the room. As the reporters made their exit, Putin gestured to them and reportedly asked Trump “Theses are the ones who insulted you?” according to a translation from CNN..’s Jim Sciutto. Sciutto tweeted out his translation which became the basis for the press reporting on the exchange.

    That quote was enough to allow me to find it. I will make a correction tomorrow. Thank you.

    Patterico (a048af)

  87. Jim Sciutto of course served in the diseased criminal stinkypig’s State Department

    plus he works for CNN fake news

    this doesn’t add up to a surfeit of credibility does it

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  88. no it doesn’t happyfeet thanks for that additional context

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  89. One and the same pikachu, just like Susan dices better half at ABC, Ben Rhodes bros at cha. Same for prietap of the fbi.

    narciso (d1f714)

  90. Blah at 80.

    I’m an older lawyer than Patrick. We have a lot of shared history. We agree on a whole lot more than we disagree on, its just that in the current political environment we disagree more publicly than before because of our respective views on Trump. I respect his views and his opinions, and I understand how he came to them honestly. I have a different perspective, so we clash on this particular issue regularly. But we’ve agreed on just about everything else we’ve debated here for the last decade.

    I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t appreciate the debate. I know he feels under assault sometimes, and he feels like I’m leading the charge on occasion. But he doesn’t back down — he leans forward — and I respect that.

    But he also makes corrections when he’s presented with a factual basis for doing so — and I respect that too. I try to reciprocate when he convinces me that I’m wrong about something.

    He has strong earnest views that he’s come by in good faith. I think he’s wrong on some aspects, but its simply a difference of opinion. He shares his, I share mine, and the wheels continue to grind.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  91. AZ Bob at 90 — now THAT is SPECTACULAR.

    LMAO.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  92. I want to add one more aspect to the critique of Hayes that Beldar made above — one more aspect of Hayes’ argument that I think is a blatant mischaracterization of Tillerson’s comments.

    Hayes wrote:

    So in April the U.S. government accused Russia of complicity in an unprovoked chemical weapons attack on innocent civilians. And on Friday, the secretary of State claimed that America and Russia have exactly the same objectives in Syria.

    And then Tillerson went even further. On matters where the United States and Russia have different views, he said, it may be that the Russians (who are actively backing a dictator slaughtering his own people) have got “the right approach and we’ve got the wrong approach.” Imagine for a moment the reaction from Republicans if John Kerry had made such a claim.

    Beldar provided the full quote in context:

    And I would tell you that, by and large, our objectives are exactly the same. How we get there, we each have a view. But there’s a lot more commonality to that than there are differences. So we want to build on the commonality, and we spent a lot of time talking about next steps. And then where there’s differences, we have more work to get together and understand. Maybe they’ve got the right approach and we’ve got the wrong approach.

    Tillerson separated the issues of objectives and approaches. Objectives are outcomes — not the method of achieving those outcomes. I think its perfectly logical for there to be “objectives” that are “by and large” “exactly the same”.

    For example, I would expect that Russia/Putin really don’t care if the Assad regime survives. It has a terminal illness in the current Middle East — that being a strongman ruler who is part of an ethnic and religious segment of the populace that is only 12% of the population. If Russia had no better proxy in the region, then they might be stuck with Assad. But they can easily supplant him with an Iranian-backed Syrian strongman to take his place, with the full support of Hezbollah.

    So, behind closed doors it might have been the case that Putin and Trump agreed that Assad could not remain, but as a Russian client state it was also agreed that it would be Russia that would push him out into exile — likely in Russia. The US doesn’t have much of a case to make for having a hand in replacing him. We can’t back a Kurdish leader because of the problems that would cause with Turkey, and we can’t really back a Sunni leader because Sunni’s make up ISIS.

    But lets get back to Hayes egregious mischaracterizations. He doubled-down when he wrote that Tillerson said “Maybe the Russians have the right approach, and we have had the wrong approach”, while parenthetically linking the statement to the fact that the Russians have been backing Assad who slaughtered his own people.

    But what the quote IN CONTEXT clearly shows is that Tillerson was referring to what approaches should be taken to get to the shared objectives. “We spent a lot of time talking about next steps. And then when there’s the differences [in next steps], we have more work to get together and understand. Maybe they’ve got the right approach and we’ve got the wrong approach.”

    Consider again what Hayes wrote when incorporating only part of Tillerson’s comment:

    On matters where the United States and Russia have different views, he said, it may be that the Russians (who are actively backing a dictator slaughtering his own people) have got “the right approach and we’ve got the wrong approach.” Imagine for a moment the reaction from Republicans if John Kerry had made such a claim.

    He divorces the comment from the context of being what the right “next steps” might be, and leaves out Tillerson’s comment that when there are differences “we have more work to get together to understand.” In other words, look at and listen to the Russians, and then make a judgment about which side makes the best case for its “next steps.”

    Maybe there won’t be any agreement. Maybe the objectives will diverge upon closer examination.

    But if the sides do work together and actually accomplish something that stems the violence and the outbound migration of millions of Syrian refugees, then it will have been worth the effort.

    Hopefully Hayes and the rest at the Weekly Standard won’t suffer the vapors and faint if that were to happen.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  93. (who are actively backing a dictator slaughtering his own people)

    george w. bush got more than a few of our tatted-up soldiers slaughtered (and maimed) in his strategically inconsequential but super-expensive mideast adventures what gave Bill Kristol quite the chub chub

    glory days yeah they’ll pass you by

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  94. Now we have a new NYT hit-piece on DTJr. and Kushner, citing “confidential government records described to the Times” which relate to interviews where they admitted meeting with a female Russian attorney in the US with strong connections to the Putin gov’t.

    Short version — attorney has aggressively fought US government enforcement of the Magnitsky Act (Google it), which Putin despises. Putin retaliates by banning US adoptions of Russian infants.

    An intermediary, not yet named, asked DT Jr. to attend a sitdown with unnamed Russian attorney to discuss barriers to US adoptions of Russian infants. DT Jr. agrees to meet at Trump Tower in June 2016, because he’s the campaign point of contact for foreign officials. Meeting lasts 20 minutes, and breaks up when Trump representatives become uneasy about subject matter, and believe that attorney and the interpreter she brought with her had either misrepresented themselves to the intermediary, or the intermediary misrepresented her to DT Jr in asking for the meeting.

    So the NYT reports in Sunday edition with a headline “Trump Team Met With Lawyer Linked to Kremlin in 2016”.

    But Trump’s attorney got to the NYT with additional details, and laid out a complete explanation of events to CIRCA just in case the NYT didn’t quite include all the juicy details.

    But you have to get to the 13th paragraph of the Times story before you learn that the Russian attorney has in the past used as a private investigator on cases she has handled, including cases for Russian government interests, the firm Fusion GPS — the same firm who commissioned the portfolio of salacious allegations about Trump at the behest of his political opponents in the primaries and general election.

    The CIRCA article puts this fact near the top of the story, and introduces the strong suggestion that the entire arranged meeting with the Russian attorney was a set-up by Fusion GPS to put some meat on the bones of their portfolio. How better to substantiate a rumor campaign of connections between the Trump campaign and the Russians than to arrange a meeting, under false pretenses, between Trump campaign officials and an attorney strongly associated with the Putin government.

    The NYT story, other than mentioning one time that the Russian attorney had a working relationship with Fusion GPS, doesn’t even mention Fusion GPS a second time anywhere. I’m sure that after the Trump campaign learned about the story, they pushed out to the NYT the connection with Fusion GPS, and their suggestion that the meeting was a set-up — as is reflected strongly by the CIRCA story. So the NYT had to at least mention the connection since it was likely handed to them, but they refuse to explore the possibilities of what that connection might mean.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  95. that’s a very weirdly reductionist take on why russia stopped letting foreigners adopt their kids

    “Not every international adoption ends happily,” the office of Pavel Astakhov, Russia’s children’s rights commissioner, said in a statement. “According to official data only, 19 Russian children died at the hands of U.S. citizens over the last 10 years.”

    every time a russian kid was abused or died in the states it was a big big news story in russia

    Russian adoptions have made headlines in recent years, with several adopted children dying in the custody of their new American parents, and a Tennessee mother returning her adopted son alone on a plane to Moscow in 2010. Russia banned US couples from adopting its orphans in 2013.

    so the question is really more

    did they ban adoptions in response to the Magnitsky Act cause they were getting pressure to do it anyway

    calling it “retaliation” is too simple i think, given the context above

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  96. oh my goodness life sucks when you’re bowe bergdork

    not so much when you’re one of the 5 footloose and fancy free terrorists President Food Stamp and his pentagon piggies traded for this loser

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  97. I expected Trump to cave. He said he would cave. H3ll he already had. The question is, who can ask now? Nobody, remotely.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  98. I will assemble for the fire-bucket team, Pat.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  99. the 2 booshes were never presidential material. The old man could not finish what he started and the kid was just a complete f-up. And he wasted good American families on his stupid move to war. 2 of the worst presidents of all time.

    mg (31009b)

  100. This country needs a new mason-nixon type line. One side for winners and the other side for losers.

    mg (31009b)

  101. dixon.

    mg (31009b)

  102. God Bless the Polish People and the land of the Poles.

    mg (31009b)

  103. happyfeet @102. Yes, I think so, too. I think it was part of Russia cracking down on baby-selling to foreign perverts, and not so much retaliation for Magnitsky.

    nk (dbc370)

  104. God Bless the Polish People and the land of the Poles.
    mg (31009b) — 7/9/2017 @ 3:34 am

    Also bless the Thais and the land of the free.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  105. That is what Thailand means.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  106. I’m all aboard, Steve57.

    mg (31009b)

  107. Moments later Newton was sentenced to 40 years in prison for sexually abusing the boy he and Truong, 36, had ”adopted” after paying a Russian woman $8000 to be their surrogate in 2005.

    Surrogate my fat aunt Fayina. It was a Russian hooker who got herself knocked up and the money went to her Russian Mafia pimps, who also market Russian hookers as Russian brides (and foreign pimps, rich perverts, and lonely dumbasses buy them, bringing some of them here on fiancee visas).

    nk (dbc370)

  108. Also bless the Thais and the land of the free.

    “Not free. You pay first. Cash in advance.”

    nk (dbc370)

  109. Thailand, the land of free, will send defecting North Koreans to the south. If you can call it that. If you can make it across the Tumen river and south to through China and Laos Thailand only the Thais are guaranteed to send you on to freedom.

    I love the Thais.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  110. Don’t know what you mean, nk.

    I know defecting NORKs, if you can forgive the term, who kissed the ground when Thai border police captured them. Who went out of their way to get caught, once they crossed the MeKong.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  111. I’ll tell you about something else. I will never complain about a damn thing.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  112. I’ve pointed that Russian zachitaa and filtration camps make us counterinsuncencies and gitmo and Abe ghraib, seem like club med:

    http://www.thehill.com/policy/defense/341051-trump-officials-signal-intent-to-begin-refilling-guantanamo

    narciso (d1f714)

  113. This is why you can’t disclose a single piece of paper to them, UN
    Like you coat with barium or radium:
    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/07/08/donald-trump-jr-and-jared-kushner-respond-to-meeting-with-russian-lawyer.html

    narciso (d1f714)

  114. Danner Fort Lewis boots on sale. Cheap. I won’t be walking the mountains of the ROK any time soon. I don’t know what our kind benefactor’s policy happens to be. Please inform me. Because these boots have lots of life left in them. I want them to benefit someone.

    r

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  115. One dollar. If you can prove you are not an imposter. If you are a serving member of the United States Armed Forces.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  116. “It’s instructive that neither Sarsour’s critics nor defenders have noted what is perhaps the most toxic part of her speech. “You can count on me,” she told an audience of American Muslims, “to use my voice to stand up, not only to people outside our community who are repressing our communities, but those inside our communities who aid and abet the oppressors outside our community.”

    Right, it’s a threat. If you don’t see things like she does, even if you’re Muslim, then you’re in for it— Linda Sarsour is watching. Linda Sarsour has your name.

    But of course many Arabs and Muslims value our political system precisely because we are free from the political violence and coercion that has left the region in flames. We Americans, rather, regardless of race or religion, are left alone to make our own political choices—even if that means supporting Donald Trump. The last thing our political culture needs is someone like Linda Sarsour channeling the political energies of an Arab intelligence service and threatening Muslims and others to see it her way or else.

    Sarsour’s speech marks a further degradation of American political discourse, which, as I’ve described here previously, has taken on a peculiarly Arab cast. It’s not enough to oppose Trump’s policies—no, instead it’s a “resistance,” mimicking the same reckless and ignorant energies that have made the last century of Middle Eastern politics a charnel house. Arab and Muslims have and will continue to make interesting and useful contributions to American life. Importing from the region the language and ethos of Middle Eastern political culture is not one of them.”

    http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/240234/linda-sarsours-jihad

    Something to actually be offended about.

    harkin (536957)

  117. 77-swc

    Well done.

    Sourced backup is always better than unsourced backup or hearsay.

    You not only didn’t back down, you leaned towards the truth and showed others the way.

    harkin (536957)

  118. He is at the epicenter of a budding movement, one that’s coming for your books, movies, God and mind. They’re thousands strong — perhaps one in every 500 — and have proponents at the highest levels of science, sports, journalism and arts.

    They call themselves Flat Earthers. Because they believe Earth — the blue, majestic, spinning orb of life — is as flat as a table.”

    TRUMP IN 2020-campaign gets early start.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  119. 108.“This country needs a new mason-nixon type line. One side for winners and the other side for losers”

    A line won’t cut it. Just google 2016 Election Map

    Both coasts and every major metropolitan area run by the Democrats. The Moonbat Archipelago.

    harkin (536957)

  120. Godbotherers stoking Theocracy.

    Marco Rubio had a message for his nearly 3 million Twitter followers on the morning of June 26: “As dogs return to their vomit, so fools repeat their folly. Proverbs 26:11.”

    That one might have been his most head-snapping, but Rubio, the Republican senator from Florida, had been tweeting verses like that one since May 16. He has tweeted a biblical verse almost every day since then. Almost all of them come from the Old Testament, and specifically the book of Proverbs.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  121. The point is the unrepentant will return tie the behavior that befouled him, true redemption requires reuncuation

    narciso (d1f714)

  122. Like peddling that esc garbage that created a mark for stem express.

    narciso (d1f714)

  123. http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN19U019

    How many tentacles on this Octopus?

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  124. 101

    Fusion GPS
    DNC and the FBI
    The Clinton Foundation and secret deals w foreign govts/business.
    Rice and unmasking
    Hillary’s server (prob one of the best potential sources for proof of Russian hacking and they don’t want investigators anywhere near it??).
    Loretta Lynch and the Clinton campaign.
    etc.

    All sorts of questions and no one’s talkin’ and evidence is being hidden and/or withheld.

    No wonder they are going so insane over Trump (and not just to divert attention).

    The people’s belief in the administration’s correct use of power is paramount to getting the answers.

    Hopefully the Never Trumpers are having a moment of reflection after all the ridiculous outrage over fake news and fortune tellers.

    harkin (536957)

  125. Matthew 23 specially written for godbotherers.

    23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  126. Yes the levitical law made a hash of the 10 commandments as the statutory leviathans has buried the constitution, e plebes vista, and the declaration.

    narciso (d1f714)

  127. What LIES! said about StDonaldus here?

    I keep hearing we lie like a Trump bear rug. Examples?

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  128. Heh. Distancing themselves from historic hypocrites because..’forgiven’.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  129. I say if the walk and quack like a duck…

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  130. Harkin @ 127 — appreciate that.

    My “pique” over the issue — if you want to call it that — was simply the fact that what I suggested as being true wasn’t hard to find if you took 2 minutes to look. So, to have the response be “you’ve made a lot of assertions but provided no links” was a bit irritating given my longstanding presence on this site. I don’t think I’m known for fronting out easily disproven factual claims, so if I comment “The comment happened on an XYZ timeline”, to respond with “show me a link” was a bit disrespectful. Especially in view of the fact that I was quite confident Patrick hadn’t actually read anywhere that the comment came AFTER the meeting, which was the premise for his comment. He just assumed that was the case because it fit the false narrative that had been set by the NYT in the article on Thursday that was the foundation for his entire post on the “monstrous outrage” that would result from any “bonding” over “fake news”.

    I think where Patrick and I simply have a fundamental disagreement is I put a lot of stock in the fact that Trump — while not great politician or statesmen, and a guy who is attempting to execute the job of being President pretty much by the seat of his pants when his history in that regard isn’t very comforting — has been the victim for 8 months of a disinformation campaign willingly engaged in by the dominant national media and the permanent political establishment of both parties, both in and out of government.

    So he fights back. And the disinformation and distortions that are aimed at undermining him are sometimes — oftentimes — met with disinformation and distortions issued by his team.

    I think its unfortunate that our political system has sunk to this level, and that Trump is not capable of being more statesmen-like. But he’s a bare-knuckled brawler when it comes to media wars, and landing blows is more important than throwing them in a fair and respectful manner as political debate should be.

    But it is my firm opinion that he didn’t establish the ground-rules for his fight with the media and the permanent political establishment — they came after him with everything they have.

    I want him to be successful not for his sake, but for the benefit of the country. So I’ll defend him when I think he’s on the right path, and I’ll overlook the tactics that get employed to beat-back his opposition given the unique circumstances he’s had to confront.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  131. Wow — I am just really tired of Lindsay Graham’s continual sermonizing on all matters involving foreign affairs. I just wish the guy would run for President himself, and then the public can express an opinion on his fitness to serve, and the wisdom of all the advice he has to give 24/7.

    Oh wait — he did. And didn’t even make it to the date of the Iowa Caucuses before folding up his campaign.

    Hey Lindsay — your brand of “Republicanism” was REJECTED. Shut up and go vote to repeal Obamacare.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  132. The Trump brand was always iffy, but the toxicity is going swimmingly. I think his plan is to triple-down on the Ponzis during his term. Maximizing the ROI on portfolio should get him to the $10b he claims. WINNING!

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  133. 101 – Fusion GPS – a well known Dem oppo research firm – along with the FBI, are refusing to cooperate with the Congressional investigation in providing documents related to the purported $50K the FBI spent for the Steele dossier, which was of course commissioned by Fusion GPS. (Dems reportedly paid a lot more – $250K.) Two of Fusion GPS’ principals have spouses with business interests in Mexico that could be harmed by the renegotiation of NAFTA (from that Circa article), perhaps a coincidence but unsurprising and maybe innocent considering the incestuous DC establishment.

    Kasparov is another who lends credence to the Steele dossier. In his interview with VOX, he claims that some of the details in the dossier have been confirmed. A link for the confirmation is provided by VOX to an article by The Guardian which, surprise surprise, doesn’t confirm much beyond the fact that the DNC server was hacked by Russia. I have the utmost respect for Kasparov’s intellect as one of the grandest of Grand Masters and from his unpaid work as Chairman of the HRF. I am surprised at how thinly sourced his accusations are with respect to Trump. He sounds a bit like a conspiracy theorist. I haven’t yet read his book, but would be interested in the authenticity of its sourcing. Certainly his take on Trump the man is mostly spot on, but I did notice his remarks have become more biting since Trump was elected.

    As a side note, the interviewer in the VOX article – Alexander Bisley – has an amusing interview style. Example:

    “Trump’s claims of “3 to 5 million” illegal election ballots cast with zero evidence. [True, but we’re finally getting a commission to study the issue.] Trump’s unprecedented attacks on judicial independence, and the judges who have ruled his Muslim ban illegal. [Um, didn’t Trump’s DOJ legitimately use the courts to fight and overturn the rulings of those judges? And don’t good men argue it wasn’t a “Muslim” ban?] Appointing a racist attorney general, Jeff Sessions, opposed in the strongest terms by Coretta Scott King. [Conveniently left out of that statement is why King claimed Sessions was racist – his office prosecuted her and her husband’s preferred and corrupt black candidates – the defendants – over the black complainants, and the black administrative assistant to Sessions’ prosecutor said there was no racism involved in that or any other matter, whatsoever.] What do you think Trump will do next?”

    Well, when you put it that way….the irony of a “journalist” using deliberately false and misleading statements while interviewing Kasparov on “fake news” is lost on Kasparov, I suppose.

    Lenny (5ea732)

  134. KDrum.

    “But how is it that he’s lost only a few points on honesty? He lied about his inauguration turnout. He lied about Obama wiretapping him. He lied about 3 (or 5) million votes from illegal immigrants causing him to lose the popular vote. He lied about London’s mayor because of a petty grudge. He lied (repeatedly) about saving money on an order for F-35 jets. Hell, the New York Times has a comprehensive list of hundreds of lies here.”

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  135. It’s not like he had any other work to do shopwrecked.

    Turns out the atty, wasn’t even authorized to be in this country, a formality I know.

    narciso (7a34d6)

  136. Mnuchin expert @doublespeak.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  137. “Mnuchin has so far hired four people as top aides with the title “counselor,” including Craig Phillips, an ex-BlackRock Inc. executive and Hillary Clinton fundraiser. The Senate won’t vote on any of them, even though Mnuchin’s own party is in charge.

    The hiring tactic is driven to some degree by necessity. The Goldman Sachs Group Inc. banker Mnuchin wanted as his deputy, Jim Donovan, pulled out on Friday, shortly before his Senate confirmation hearing was to be scheduled. Donovan said his withdrawal stemmed from a family matter.” Nuff said. wet

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  138. I would love to cuckold Mnuchin-double chin.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  139. Axios.

    Minutes after President Trump tweeted that he and Vladimir Putin discussed forming an “impenetrable Cyber Security unit” to guard against election hacking and “many other negative things,” Republican Sen. Marco Rubio responded with some tweets of his own:

    While reality & pragmatism requires that we engage Vladimir Putin, he will never be a trusted ally or a reliable constructive partner…. Partnering with Putin on a “Cyber Security Unit” is akin to partnering with Assad on a “Chemical Weapons Unit.”

    Sen Lindsey Graham added on Meet the Press: “It’s not the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, but it’s pretty close.”

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  140. “CONSUMER FREEDUMB OPTION”
    -CRUZ

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  141. “It’s a Win/Win for everyone”
    -cruz

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  142. Trump doesn’t comprehend health insurance pools, but Cruz blinks madly when he pretends it’s unfair for healthy young to be in a sickly pool. He lies like a rug.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  143. What did Graham say that you object to, shipwreckedcrew? Is that he criticized Trump for wanting to for an impenetrable cybersecurity unit with Russia to guard against election hacking and other problems?

    That should work out fine.

    DRJ (15874d)

  144. I would ask Graham and Rubio what specifically they understand the issue of cooperating on a “cyber security unit” to involve?

    My guess is that their answers would both be, “What we’ve read about it in the press.”

    My response would be — “Exactly. Now shut up until you know something factual.”

    I have no idea what the concept is that was discussed. I don’t think Tillerson expanded on it at all in his post-meeting recap.

    It strikes me as the kind of thing that goes back to the intelligence agencies to consider, their responses will undoubtedly be “Not a good idea”, and that will be the end of it.

    But its just another example runaway press reporting and talking-heads pontificating on a soundbite that has no substance to it.

    I like to wait for the substance to form an opinion.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  145. No, Cruz believes its unfair to FORCE healthy young people to be in a sickly pool when all that means is they will pay higher premiums than their health condition warrants.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  146. See 155 DRJ.

    How about offering and opinion on the “Cybersecurity unit” idea yourself — but make it factual.

    What is it, how will it work, and what specifically about it doe you oppose?

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  147. You already formed an opinion, swc. You said intelligence agencies will undoubtedly say it’s not a good idea. Other people can form opinions, too, and they get to suggest them … even with someone like Trump is President. (By the way, Trump’s background and temperament is not a good reason to say cut him slack. I hope he is not a “special needs” President.)

    Why would Trump even discuss something like that? Why not talk to intelligence agencies before a Summit and identify meaningful things to talk about, rather than wing it like JFK did trying to show Khruschev how smart he was?

    DRJ (15874d)

  148. I oppose a cybersecurity unit with Russia because I don’t want Putin and Russua to have the keys to our country’s cybersecurity. How is that not obvious?

    DRJ (15874d)

  149. According to our government, cybersecurity is an important homeland security mission because it is a threat to infrastructure and the threat increasing comes from foreign nation-state threats. IOW China, Russia, etc.

    Why would we partner with a country that is not our ally on such a critical security issue?

    DRJ (15874d)

  150. No G20 statement on NorKs.

    Guess why?

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  151. Because stuff simply comes up in an unscripted 135 minute long meeting.

    Its not like they are reading prepared texts back and forth to each other.

    We don’t even know which side pitched the idea.

    I can walk out of a 2 hour meeting with a client, and have 20 action items listed in my notes. 18 of them might come to nothing, but I probably take a look at the ideas anyway.

    I firmly believe we have a HUGE technical advantage over the Russians when it comes to cyber-warefare/security. An opportunity to engage with them substantively on a joint-effort of any kind is an opportunity to exploit the arrangement for our benefit.

    Spycraft operators — of which I have close connections to a few — never turn down an opportunity for a peek at someone else’s capabilities. And at the same time, you lay the groundwork for providing them a peek at your’s that 1) doesn’t really show them anything that you are not confident they already know, and 2) is a opportunity to plant disinformation with them while they are taking careful notes.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  152. “No, Cruz believes its unfair to FORCE healthy young ”

    So his option makes it mandatory?

    I think you need context.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  153. Ben burn,

    Cruz is doing what he thinks is right and what Texans want. Did you know “1,066,360 Texas families paid $247.5M in penalties to the IRS for the right not to purchase health insurance.” There are approximately 9 million Texas households so that is a significant number of Texans who either can’t or won’t comply with ObamaCare.

    DRJ (15874d)

  154. My understanding is that Cruz’s option lets the States and insurance companies decide what to offer, as long as there is one ObamaCare compliant policy available.

    DRJ (15874d)

  155. Spycraft operators — of which I have close connections to a few — never turn down an opportunity for a peek at someone else’s capabilities. And at the same time, you lay the groundwork for providing them a peek at your’s that 1) doesn’t really show them anything that you are not confident they already know, and 2) is a opportunity to plant disinformation with them while they are taking careful notes.

    Russia will be doing the same thing, only it has more to gain from partnering with us (especially, as you note, if it is not as advanced as we are) and our democratic policy of transparency means we have more to lose.

    I understand cybersecurity folks would like to know what the Russians know. That’s why we spy on them and try to hack them, probably as most countries do. We may give them access as a trap but we don’t give them access as a matter of policy. That is a foolish risk, and it’s foolish to even suggest it.

    DRJ (15874d)

  156. On the other hand, I would be hard pressed to advocate any kind of exchange with the Chinese.

    Unlike the Russians IMO, the Chinese are on a direct and aggressive path of hegemonic expansion across Asia and the areas of the Pacific and Indian Oceans where they can reach, and they have the economic and military means to do so. I think the Chinese are much more willing to engage in brinksmanship with regard to Taiwan and the South China Sea than are the Russians along their western and southern borders. I think the Chinese see South Korea, Japan, and the Philippines as vulnerable US allies in the region due to geography, and who can be leveraged by the threat of military action, based on the belief that the US will not actually come to their rescue in a deep and meaningful way if “push were to come to shove”.

    I’m just not convinced that the post-Soviet Union Russia, crippled by 80 years of communist central planning that resulted in a decrepit economy and industrial base, can really project itself on the rest of the world in any meaningful way — nothing like the Chinese are capable of.

    Which of the two countries has empowered their citizens to conduct unprecedented spending sprees to snap up US businesses and real estate, absorbing sensitive dual purpose technologies and economic access avenues along the way?

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  157. Drj: those stats are from wh.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  158. And it just got worse. Let’s hope that Trump does not collude with Putin on this “impenetrable Cyber Security unit”.

    WarrenPeese (84b881)

  159. 144-Lenny:
    “Appointing a racist attorney general, Jeff Sessions, opposed in the strongest terms by Coretta Scott King. [Conveniently left out of that statement is why King claimed Sessions was racist – his office prosecuted her and her husband’s preferred and corrupt black candidates – the defendants – over the black complainants, and the black administrative assistant to Sessions’ prosecutor said there was no racism involved in that or any other matter, whatsoever.]”

    Every time I meet a lefty or Never Trumper who brings up Sessions’ “racism” for his decision favoring honest, law-abiding blacks over dishonest, crooked blacks I get a blank stare.

    harkin (7833f6)

  160. I think what Cruz recognizes in his caucus is that the idea of “compulsory” health insurance is an “entitlement” that will not go away at this moment in time, with only 52 GOP senators, and 3-4 RINOs who have already declared they will not back the premise of the Senate plan.

    What Cruz’s amendment proposes is to do away with the “community rating” required under Obamacare, which requires that insurers offer the same premiums to the sick as to the healthy. This passes on the health care expenses of the sick to the healthy in the form of higher premiums.

    By allowing non-conforming plans (i.e., no coverage for pre-existing conditions), and eliminating community rating, insurance companies can offer plans to young and healthy persons at a very low premium levels — which would be commensurate with their risk level.

    Those with pre-existing condition, or with very high risk factors, would be placed in high risk pools, with the to government providing premium support, and backstopping the insurance companies against catastrophic losses in those pools.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  161. Because stuff simply comes up in an unscripted 135 minute long meeting.

    Each country at a G20 Summit has an agenda of what it wants to accomplish. The 20 countries have been preparing for this for some time through their economic agencies and representatives, and there are specific topics that they agree they will and will not discuss. For instance, 19 of the 20 countries wanted a pledge to support global free trade, but Trump and the US refused so that was not a topic they addressed.

    I agree the Trump-Putin meeting was not scripted like a speech, but prudent leaders only go to these Summits after extensive preparation, briefing and knowing exactly what they want to accomplish.

    DRJ (15874d)

  162. Much as with the hotline so we don’t accidentally nuke each other, but there is,an issue,because hackers have certainly infiltrated fsb and,likely nsa considermiss winner, Taliban and sepah fan virl

    narciso (7a34d6)

  163. Yes, Ben burn, although I suspect this is from the IRS. But the IRS doesn’t publish daily statistics so this is the only place to get this information. Is it true? I guess it could be a lie. Obama certainly lied and Trump could, too, but as a Texan I assure you ObamaCare is not popular here so this wouldn’t surprise me.

    DRJ (15874d)

  164. Tom Maguire is peddling his Trump tricycle like an ADHD on collusion. He’s an expert at unlocking his jaw to swallow rumpublican camels.

    The connection drawn by the president’s lawyers between Veselnitskaya and Fusion GPS comes from a letter this spring by the Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Charles Grassley, who disclosed that Fusion GPS also provided litigation support in the Prevezon case.

    Prevezon also apparently lobbied against the Magnitsky Act, according to Grassley’s letter.

    “Prevezon’s lobbying efforts were reportedly commissioned by Mr. Katsyv, who organized them through a Delaware non-profit he formed and through the law firm then representing Prevezon in the asset forfeiture case, Baker Hostetler. Among others, the efforts involved lobbyist Rinat Akhmetshin and Fusion GPS, a political research firm led by Glenn Simpson,” the letter said.

    Grassley has asked the Justice Department to look at all the connections and is seeking information from Fusion GPS on whether opponents of Trump funded the creation of a salacious intelligence dossier to hurt his presidential bid. The FBI has said it has been unable to corroborate many of the allegations in the dossier that involved Trump.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  165. Well they hired Rick Perry to run Texas so it could be true, drj.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  166. So let’s assume Trump went to this Summit as a prudent and prepared leader. That means he wants to establish a cybersecurity unit with Russia. Frankly, I don’t believe that is something US cybersecurity experts say they need, nor do I think intelligence agencies would give this their blessing (as you said above). So why might this be one of Trump’s goals?

    DRJ (15874d)

  167. 141 swc

    One reason I really appreciate your persistence and info is because I was too confused to form much of a reply other than trying to figure out why someone could be so worked up over something that hadn’t actually happened, but if it did, we needed a pre-emptive outrage alert that The President was monstrously disgusting and repulsive, and that we should be sick to our stomachs over it.

    I asked a follow-up after the fake news about the “insulted” quote, which was: Is Trump still monstrously disgusting etc. and should we all be vomiting merely for Trump being present when Vlad uttered those words, but I never saw a reply.

    harkin (7833f6)

  168. “but prudent leaders only go to these Summits after extensive preparation, briefing and knowing exactly what they want to accomplish.”

    You’re imposing a norm on Trump that doesn’t exist – for good or ill. He’s a bombastic negotiator of deals based on 45 years of business activity.

    If you read the NYT account today, you see info that came from briefings aboard AF One on the trip back, from HR McMaster and Steve Mnuchin based on their conversations with Trump and Tillerson.

    They add to the story by explaining that Trump started the meeting with a firm exchange on the issue of election interference, and that the conversation on that topic went for 40 minutes — the entire meeting was supposed to be 30 minutes total. Trump pressed Putin on the findings of the intelligence community, and Putin strenuously denied it. In response to repeated allegations by Trump, Putin asked to be shown proof of the intelligence communities findings. They went back and forth a few more times — and anyone who has engaged in this kind of exchange that requires interpreters knows that it basically takes twice as much time to have a normal conversation as it would if both were speaking the same language.

    Finally, it was Trump who said “Lets get to Syria” and they moved on.

    That was Trump pushing the US agenda.

    At what point the issue of a “cybersecurity unit” entered the conversation is not made clear by anyone, nor is there any details in the reporting concerning what that would entail. Just because the US didn’t have something like that on the agenda doesn’t mean the Russians didn’t throw it into the mix based on what was on their agenda.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  169. Yes, we are different here. We have jobs and homes and families. We love chicken fried steaks, Tex Mex and barbecue. And we welcome everyone as friends.

    DRJ (15874d)

  170. This JoM remote viewing works.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  171. Ben, why so angry? It’s not healthy.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  172. No offense to Texans, I just drive around it when traveling East. Seriously, most Texans are good.

    Ben burn (ae48b8)

  173. “… but prudent leaders only go to these Summits after extensive preparation, briefing and knowing exactly what they want to accomplish.”

    You’re imposing a norm on Trump that doesn’t exist – for good or ill. He’s a bombastic negotiator of deals based on 45 years of business activity.

    Then he’s winging it. No one with any real responsibilities can do that successfully, let alone a President. God help us all.

    DRJ (15874d)

  174. The really, really bad thing about Trump’s suggestion isn’t that he might do it. As swc says, the intelligence people will probably say no (although Trump could still overrule them).

    But we could never partner with someone who tried to hack or interfere with our election process, so Trump’s suggestion signals that Trump will never investigate or acknowledge that Russia did anything. That topic is under the bus. Some Trump supporters may not care because their guy won, but they should care.

    DRJ (15874d)

  175. We “hack” and “interfere” with the election processes in countries all over the world.

    If you think that’s not true, you are naive.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  176. The problem is the whole panopticon is riven with backdoors, the whole host of exploitable inscriptions standards in a whole suite of software, when you have a sniwden or a winner in the network its not secure.

    narciso (d1f714)

  177. I acknowledged we do things like that in my comment 167, swc.

    DRJ (15874d)

  178. So kaspersky is being investigated but their code want in on the hack.

    narciso (d1f714)

  179. It’s not as if Trump said we will partner with the Russians regarding cybersecurity ideas that we might share with anyone. He specifically referenced sharing cybersecurity regarding election hacking.

    Why would we share election cybersecurity information with any nation, let alone an enemy like Russia (or potential enemy, since you think Russia is too weak to hurt us now)?

    DRJ (15874d)

  180. In addition, swc, I don’t see why you are so comforted by the fact that Putin mentioned reporters before his meeting with Trump instead of after. If anything, that showed Putin is willing to deliberately use their shared antipathy to the media to ingratiate himself with Trump. It makes sense for Putin to do that but America is supposed to be a nation that believes a free press is important — it’s one of our core values.

    It’s one thing to criticize specific media for unfairness. It’s another to have a good chuckle with a leader who kills journalists.

    DRJ (15874d)

  181. Why would we share election cybersecurity information with any nation, let alone an enemy like Russia (or potential enemy, since you think Russia is too weak to hurt us now)?

    DRJ (15874d) — 7/9/2017 @ 10:06 am

    I am sure Russian intel is asking a similar question. Every action has its consequences, but when it comes to DJT, the word “consequences” seems not to mean what we think it means.

    felipe (023cc9)

  182. There are reasons for reervationsas i pointed out above, however the Chinese hacked 20 million rpm files, where is the outrage much less retaluation

    narciso (d1f714)

  183. What the same media like the new York times that praised the Julius Caesar performance being edgy, this is not a new sentiment either.

    narciso (d1f714)

  184. yes yes the utterly random and wholly opportunistic nature of the nevertrump kvetchings betray their lack of principle

    it is so obvious to anyone who is willing to do the analysis

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  185. 195 — you’re missing my point.

    The NYT ran an article in advance of the summit crafting a false narrative — that Trump “aides” feared he and Putin would “bond” over their experiences with “fake news.”

    Patrick jumped on that for his first post, going back to his Kasparov post, to suggest how “monstrous” it would be for Trump to in any way commiserate with a killer like Putin, who has journalists executed when they make trouble for him.

    I took on that post by pointing out the issues involving sourcing in the NYT article, and the clear bias of the only people who actually spoke to the issue on the record. My view was that the “bonding” over “fake news” meme was simply click-bait by a hostile media beast, and the story was devoid of any actual substance that made it newsworthy.

    Patrick doubled-down yesterday by seizing on the reporting about Putin’s comment, stating in this post:

    …I would add the shameful spectacle of a man who has ordered journalists to be murdered pointing at a group of journalists and asking Trump: “These are the ones who insulted you?” Not only is this apparent confirmation of the prediction before the meeting that Trump would whine to Putin about “FAKE NEWS!!” but it is also, to put it mildly, creepy and chilling given Putin’s history.

    So, Patrick was in effect saying that Trump had done exactly what the NYT article had predicted he would do — “bond” with Putin in the meeting over their shared experiences with “fake news”.

    But that conclusion would depend on Putin’s statement having been made AFTER any such bonding experience — which was not true. Putin’s statement was made before the meeting, during the grip and grin before the cameras prior to the meeting starting.

    Patrick indicated in a note last night that he would correct his post based on the information I cited, but he hasn’t taken the time to do so yet.

    I expect him to change it, but I also expect him to add in some editorial similar to your comment – that the timing of the statement in relationship to the meeting shouldn’t really undermine the outrage that we should all fell just like him.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  186. Harkin — I think Patrick replied to your question in the comments on the other thread.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  187. 199 is actually a response to DRJ’s 194, not 195. Sorry.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  188. DRJ — do you equate Trump’s conduct vis-a-vis the press with an assault by him on the First Amendment??

    See, I don’t. The press has the absolute freedom under the First Amendment to publish whatever information they can dig out.

    But everyone else, including the President, has the freedom to point out their biases, and to take them to task for their errors. That’s not an assault on the First Amendment, that’s demanding accountability on the part of the press in exchange for defending their freedom to publish whatever they can dig out.

    And again, Putin’s line is an unscripted moment while reporters are shouting questions, cameras are whirring, and the two sides are preparing to adjourn to the private meeting. Seems to be asking a lot to ask that Trump have been “tuned” to avoid any kind of reaction to anything Putin might spontaneously say which could be construed — unfairly — as an endorsement of Putin’s internal operations.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  189. 200 – swc – he did, thanks. I missed it.

    The answer was as confusing as the original post. No where near as sure or sibilant as earlier when he mistakenly thought he had the goods:

    I guess you missed the report about Putin pointing to reporters and asking: “are these the ones who insulted you?”

    Since you provided an assist on finding a reply, maybe you’ll let me know where to find the correction promised at 92.

    harkin (7833f6)

  190. A Tale Of Two New Yorkers In Germany

    “He kept his trip a secret until he was leaving, knowing he would be denounced. So he skulked out of town in the aftermath of a police assassination, the slow-motion collapse of the subways and a record surge in homelessness.

    For what? To talk about climate change and gay marriage to foreigners nearly 4,000 miles away.

    The mayor was in full Putz mode as he abandoned his City Hall post to join the anarchists, socialists and violent leftists trying to disrupt the G-20 summit. In the history of low moments in New York politics, de Blasio’s stunt stands out.”

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2017/07/09/a_tale_of_two_new_yorkers_in_germany_414994.html

    harkin (7833f6)

  191. Wow – one of the leaders of NeverTrump didn’t like his meeting with Putin. Talk about a scoop – STOP THE PRESSES ! Billy Kristol, Bow Tie Georgie, the Weak Stand and NR – Never Relevant – lost most of their credibility a loooong time ago. They were wrong about every single political judgment they made in the last 18 months.

    They are the perfect embodiment of Spiro Agnew’s “effete impudent snobs”. A writer for Town Hall recently put it better: “Cue the boring moralizing and sanctimonious whimpering of the femmy, bow-tied, submissive branch of conservatism whose obsolete members were shocked to find themselves left behind by the masses to whom these geeks’ sinecures were not the most important objective of the movement”.

    A writer for California Political Review – namely me – also put it fairly well: http://www.capoliticalreview.com/top-stories/nevertrumps-ant-flatulence-in-a-hurricane/

    Not sure if posting links is allowed – so apologies in advance if I’ve violated protocol.

    Bill Saracino (ad0096)

  192. UPDATE: Commenter shipwreckedcrew points out that the comment from Putin “These are the ones who insulted you?” was made “ahead of” the two-hour meeting. In the post, I said that the statement was “apparent confirmation of the prediction before the meeting that Trump would whine to Putin about ‘FAKE NEWS!!'” Since the comment was made ahead of the meeting, it was not right to call it “confirmation” of what they discussed in the meeting. It would be more accurate to say that the comment showed that Putin was aware of Trump’s attitude towards the press, and willing to exploit it in public. I find laughable the notion that Putin didn’t exploit as well in their private meeting. I find equally laughable the notion that Trump — who obsesses over his purportedly unfair treatment at the hands of the press — didn’t whine about the press during their lengthy meeting. In fact, I’d bet my house on it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  193. @181. … And we welcome everyone as friends.

    Except in blue uniforms, eh, DRJ. 😉 Then Texas doesn’t want or need a Trump wall after all. Saves billions.

    ‘Don’t Fence Me In’ – Cole Porter, 1934

    ________

    Today’s Beldar The Bitter ‘Watergate, Watergate, Watergate’ Words Of Wonder:

    “Well, it’s a tough thing, Bob. For you, for John, the rest, but g-ddammit, I’m never going to discuss this son of a b-tching Watergate thing again. Never, never, never, never.” – President Nixon consoling HR Haldeman about throwing him and other top aides ‘under the bus’ over Watergate, secret White House Oval Office tapes, April 30, 1973

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  194. WikiLeaks suggested on Sunday that its founder, Julian Assange, should lead the U.S.-Russian cyber security unit after President Trump announced the idea on Twitter.

    Bwaaaaaaahaaaaaa

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  195. The answer was as confusing as the original post.

    Well, I’m sorry you were confused, Harkin. Why don’t we clarify here. I’ll reproduce my entire comment here and then explain further, with the benefit of swc’s link showing the comment was made in advance of the meeting. I’ll split my comment into two parts. Here’s the first part:

    So the question remains: does Putin pointing at reporters and asking “are these the ones who insulted you?” make Trump (merely by being present) monstrously disgusting, “repulsive” — and should it “make all aware citizens feel sick to their stomach”?

    harkin,

    No, not “merely by being present.”

    But if — I say if! — it was the product of Trump whining to Putin, then the action of Trump, and the idea that he would do it, could be accurately described with those adjectives. (The careful reader — which, here, is not you — will note that I used those adjectives to describe the concept that Trump would engage in such an action. I did not use those adjectives in my post to describe Trump.)

    We now know that the comment was not the product of Trump whining to Putin. Because the whining — which I am confident happened — had not happened yet. Here’s the second part of my comment:

    So “the question” is actually a different one from the one you asked. The question is this: we are presented with the case of a small, petty man who daily reveals his obsession with the fixation that he is being mistreated by the news media. Did he manage to get through a two-hour-plus meeting with his man-crush Vladimir without whining about said media obsession? And then did Putin bring it up out of nowhere in front of the media, based solely on news reports?

    Given the sparse personnel present at the meeting, we will probably never know the answer for sure. I’d bet my house that Trump brought it up. Your mileage probably varies — and if so, we’ll have to leave our disagreement there, because there ain’t no resolving it.

    Assuming that Putin and Trump had had no private time together yet, which I think is a fair assumption, then Putin apparently did bring it up based on news reports.

    I would still be willing to bet my house that a small, petty man (that would be Trump, to eliminate any confusion) who daily reveals his obsession with the fixation that he is being mistreated by the news media (still talking about Trump) did not manage to get through a two-hour-plus meeting with his man-crush Vladimir (that would be Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia) without whining about said media obsession.

    And, as I noted in my update, the fact that Putin was willing to exploit this publicly is strong evidence that he brought it up privately as well.

    I hope that’s clearer.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  196. there isn’t a shred of proof that Putin ever asked “are these the ones who insulted you?”

    this is fake news

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  197. I’ll also note:

    Trump then broke into a chuckle as the two continued talking.

    Wow. Trump broke into a chuckle when a guy who has journalists killed pointed at journalists and asked if they were the ones who had insulted Trump.

    No, you guys are right: Trump acted appropriately!

    We have so much to be proud of there!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  198. there isn’t a shred of proof that Putin ever asked “are these the ones who insulted you?”

    this is fake news

    You’re a fake commenter who thinks Trump tells the truth. You have forfeited any right to be taken seriously.

    Sorry but that’s how it works

    Patterico (115b1f)

  199. that doesn’t change the fact that there’s absolutely no evidence Putin ever said what a cnn fake news propaganda slut alleges he said

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  200. UPDATE x2: The same link shows that when Putin made the comment, Trump “chuckled.”

    Scum.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  201. Trump broke into a chuckle when a guy who has journalists killed pointed at journalists and asked if they were the ones who had insulted Trump.

    and harvardtrash Ben Sasse broke into a delighted smirk when he heard Bill Maher’s n-word quip

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  202. It would be more accurate to say that the comment showed that Putin was aware of Trump’s attitude towards the press, and willing to exploit it in public. I find laughable the notion that Putin didn’t exploit as well in their private meeting.

    Yep. Seeding doubt in Western institutions is SOP; it’s part of the current ‘aggressive’ game plan. And given his status as a leader of a regional power, it’s much more cost effective in this cyber-connected world at disrupting adversaries than dumbing down to rolling tanks… yet.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  203. Is there left to steel the Chinese stole 20 million records, in part because they hired Chinese coders in the network, every agency of the federal govt has been hacked bar none.

    narciso (d1f714)

  204. DRJ — do you equate Trump’s conduct vis-a-vis the press with an assault by him on the First Amendment??

    See, I don’t. The press has the absolute freedom under the First Amendment to publish whatever information they can dig out.

    But everyone else, including the President, has the freedom to point out their biases, and to take them to task for their errors. That’s not an assault on the First Amendment, that’s demanding accountability on the part of the press in exchange for defending their freedom to publish whatever they can dig out.

    And again, Putin’s line is an unscripted moment while reporters are shouting questions, cameras are whirring, and the two sides are preparing to adjourn to the private meeting. Seems to be asking a lot to ask that Trump have been “tuned” to avoid any kind of reaction to anything Putin might spontaneously say which could be construed — unfairly — as an endorsement of Putin’s internal operations.

    It’s not unfair because Trump has praised Putin’s strength before, and denied that there is proof he kills journalists. So there is a context and a background that you are wholly ignoring.

    Everything I say about Trump is made in light of everything we know about him — including the fact that he praised China’s massacre at and near Tiananmen Square, and that he has defended Putin’s monstrous actions with the zeal of a Russian apparatchik. Let’s stop pretending that we don’t have this background to inform us.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  205. and harvardtrash Ben Sasse broke into a delighted smirk when he heard Bill Maher’s n-word quip

    Bullshit, fake commenter. That’s a lie and anyone who has been the tape knows it’s a lie, fake commenter.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  206. Maybe we should have a U.S.-Russia joint police force, army, navy, air force, and nuclear missile command, too.

    I hope that this joint cyber-security unit thing is fake-fake news, made up by the media, and Trump did not even mention such a thing. Because he would be an idiot for even mentioning it, no matter what part of his anatomy Putin may have grabbed at their meeting.

    nk (dbc370)

  207. That’s just fakey news that Trump is anti-democratic and where can we find that 1st Amendment that’s not fake, Patterico?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  208. i’ve seen the tape!

    you may disagree with my interpretation

    but i disagree with your interpretation that President Trump’s dismissive chuckle indicated a wholehearted support for journalist murder

    perhaps we’re both reading too much into these things

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  209. Cyber is the next generation of weaponry, frankly we let thecat out of the bag with stuixtbet

    narciso (d1f714)

  210. You linked to Molly McKew’s twitter feed where she stated: “Tillerson also said the two presidents agreed not to meddle in each other’s domestic affairs. This is a huge PR win for Putin. Incalculable.

    I challenge you to find in the transcript of Tillerson’s comments after the meeting a reference to Trump having told Putin that the US won’t meddle in Russia’s internal affairs.

    http://www.npr.org/2017/07/07/536035953/transcript-secretary-of-state-tillerson-on-trumps-meeting-with-putin

    And you should take a little closer look at Molly McKew’s history before relying on her twitter feed for anything substantive concerning Putin and Russia. Let’s just say she has a POV.

    As for your editorializing at 206 — surmise now supplants reported facts?

    And if you went back to look at my original posts calling into question your timeline, you would see that I hypothesized that Putin did, in fact, intend to ring his Pavlovian bell for Trump’s critics with his comment about the press, knowing of Trump’s combative relationship with the dominant media in the US.

    My view is that it was more likely intended to sow further discord between Trump and the press, and Trump and his political opposition, as opposed to trying to ingratiate himself with Trump. To me that latter isn’t really a KGB tactic — their history is not one of “sucking up” to garner favor. The tactics of the KGB is to sow discord and then take advantage.

    So its Trumps critics that went for the bait.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  211. Heh. You saw the Zapruder film?
    You’d make a lousy witness.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  212. As for Update No. 2 — try this.

    Watch the video. Its on YouTube.

    You know — chase facts not charaterizations of facts by people with agendas.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  213. I just watched “Following the Ninth” which is a film about Beethoven’s Ninth and the ways it has been used by people fighting for freedom across the world. I watched it with my family. There is a lot of footage of the protests at Tiananmen Square and an interview with one of the leaders.

    When we got to the footage where the authorities were cleaning up, with bodies strewn everywhere, I asked my daughter to pause the film. Then I read to the family Trump’s comments made to Playboy in 1990, a year later.

    When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak… as being spit on by the rest of the world.

    My children are already disgusted with Trump but they were still shaking their heads.

    Trump now claims that it wasn’t praise to say “they almost blew it” but then changed their tactics and “put it down with strength.” That is a lie, but of course he lies as easily as he breathes.

    He has a background. Many here like to ignore that background. I always have it in mind.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  214. 218 — please quote, and I mean by that the ENTIRE QUOTE, of Trump’s statement praising the Chinese with regard to Tinanamen Square.

    Its not nearly as neat as has been suggested for a long time.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  215. As for Update No. 2 — try this.

    Watch the video. Its on YouTube.

    OK. I just did. Here’s one video that has it.

    He’s yukking it up and says: “These are the ones. You’re right about that.”

    It makes me want to vomit. But thanks for forcing me to find it and watch it. How utterly appalling.

    Of course fake commenter happyfeet says there’s no evidence it happened.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  216. 218 — please quote, and I mean by that the ENTIRE QUOTE, of Trump’s statement praising the Chinese with regard to Tinanamen Square.

    Its not nearly as neat as has been suggested for a long time.

    I think we cross-posted. Is there missing context from the quote I just gave?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  217. That was the whole quote about China. Now let’s put it in even fuller context:

    What were your other impressions of the Soviet Union?

    I was very unimpressed. Their system is a disaster. What you will see there soon is a revolution; the signs are all there with the demonstrations and picketing. Russia is out of control and the leadership knows it. That’s my problem with Gorbachev. Not a firm enough hand.

    You mean firm hand as in China?

    When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak … as being spit on by the rest of the world—

    Why is Gorbachev not firm enough?

    I predict he will be overthrown, because he has shown extraordinary weakness. Suddenly, for the first time ever, there are coal-miner strikes and brush fires everywhere- which will all ultimately lead to a violent revolution. Yet Gorbachev is getting credit for being a wonderful leader and we should continue giving him credit, because he’s destroying the Soviet Union. But his giving an inch is going to end up costing him and all his friends what they most cherish-their jobs.

    It’s exactly as it has been portrayed. It is praise for mass murder. I’m frankly surprised that you are defending him on this, shipwreckedcrew. I guess there really is nothing that this guy can say that won’t cause his defenders to fall in line.

    Wow.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  218. When Milo came to Berkeley, the leftists opposing his appearance almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength. That shows you the power of strength.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  219. We cross-posted 227 and 228.

    I don’t disagree for a minute that his comments were then and remain highly offensive.

    But I’m not sure they translate directly as support for the Chicoms crushing the uprising with military force. His comments were internally inconsistent unless you really want to harmonize his statement that they were “vicious” and “horrible” with his conclusion that they acted with “strength.”

    To harmonize those two you would have to conclude that he saw virtue in acting viciously and horribly in a show of strength. I just can’t get to that point. Instead, my view is that his comments are incongruous — inartful at best, or an intellectual incoherence at worst.

    As for the latter, there are hundreds of examples of him doing the same thing on a variety of topics over the years — just none as offensive at that one.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  220. I have almost nothing in common with Republicans any more.

    What little I do is far overshadowed by the differences.

    Can someone find me a party where the people believe in limited government and the Constitution, and would never ever defend mass murder, or murders of journalists, by ruthless dictators?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  221. here’s the whole 1990 Playboy interview it’s a wonderful read

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  222. To harmonize those two you would have to conclude that he saw virtue in acting viciously and horribly in a show of strength.

    Here’s how I harmonize it.

    The words “vicious” and “horrible” were lip service. “Yes, I know, I know, I am supposed to oppose what they did. Now that I’ve got that annoying triviality out of the way, let me drool some more over how STRONG they were!”

    That is by far the most logical way to read his statement.

    It’s supposed to be mockable, the idea that it’s scary that this guy is President. I don’t find it mockable at all.

    And I find it a little scary how easily people brush aside his past statements like this.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  223. Or even praise such statements, the way fake commenter happyfeet praises literally everything Trump does.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  224. @224. As for your editorializing at 206 — surmise now supplants reported facts?

    ‘Facts,’… ‘alternative facts’… in an era where ‘fake news’ – like entertainment and sports reports- have been legitimized and elevated as hard news in the mix of daily discourse. Stove-piping has you believing what you want to reinforce your perceptions these days.

    Did Amelia and Fred crash and drown or ditch to die in a Japanese jail? Tune in tonight and watch a fresh set of ‘alternative facts’ on “The History Channel” — home to pawn shoppers, swamp people and ancient aliens.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  225. Mr. Trump sure was prescient about Gorbachev

    i think people sometimes underestimate his perspicacity

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  226. As for the latter, there are hundreds of examples of him doing the same thing [speaking incoherently] on a variety of topics over the years

    True.

    I’m just so gosh-darned PROUD to have him as my President!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  227. This one should be much simpler — you know, without all the editorializing from MSNBC’s talking heads. Its just raw video of the entire pre-meeting meet&greet.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSKJWFWNBmw

    To me, its an unguarded moment.

    But what you really want is for Trump to divorce his views of Putin from his views of the importance of a working relationship with Russia.

    This is the point Tillerson made in his post-meeting briefing — you don’t lose track of who Putin is and his track record, but you can’t ignore the need to be engaged with Russia on a whole host of world issues. Establishing a working relationship that benefits the US is more valuable than the condemnation of one person.

    Sort of like Churchill, Roosevelt, and Stalin.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  228. “And I find it a little scary how easily people brush aside his past statements like this.”

    They don’t see it cuz he’s THEIR man in Havana. Now if the political identity were colored with blue crayons…

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  229. Shipwreckedcrew:

    195 194 — you’re missing my point.

    The NYT ran an article in advance of the summit crafting a false narrative — that Trump “aides” feared he and Putin would “bond” over their experiences with “fake news.”

    Patrick jumped on that for his first post, going back to his Kasparov post, to suggest how “monstrous” it would be for Trump to in any way commiserate with a killer like Putin, who has journalists executed when they make trouble for him.

    I took on that post by pointing out the issues involving sourcing in the NYT article, and the clear bias of the only people who actually spoke to the issue on the record. My view was that the “bonding” over “fake news” meme was simply click-bait by a hostile media beast, and the story was devoid of any actual substance that made it newsworthy.

    Patterico has already made the points I was going to make in my reply. First, to “share a good chuckle” is a way of bonding. That Putin and Trump bonded over their common antipathy to the media before their meeting rather than after is not an important distinction to me, although if anything it underscores that Putin obviously knows he can use that when it comes to dealing with Trump.

    As for any “assault on the first Amendment,” I didn’t say that but it would be nice to have a President who corrects Putin and tries to educate him about the importance of a free and responsible press. You know, someone smart like George W. Bush.

    DRJ (15874d)

  230. “And, as I noted in my update, the fact that Putin was willing to exploit this publicly is strong evidence that he brought it up privately as well.”

    harkin (7833f6)

  231. you don’t lose track of who Putin is and his track record,

    That would be the missing part. Not only has Trump lost track, he has actively denied it and defended Putin on many occasions.

    But hey. Let’s keep pretending that never happened.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  232. “Bonding the Bromance”

    LOL!

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  233. The NYT ran an article in advance of the summit crafting a false narrative — that Trump “aides” feared he and Putin would “bond” over their experiences with “fake news.”

    DRJ is spot on. The video I saw was bonding. It happened right in front of our eyes.

    Yet SWC called it “FAKE NEWS!!” — even after it happened and there was video of it.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  234. Diplomats deal with anyone. Presidents are supposed to have principles guided by the Constitution and judgment based on morality.

    DRJ (15874d)

  235. Sorry Drj. But I couldnt stop myself.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  236. 236 — I understand that conclusion, and I think there’s enough support in the public arena for it.

    That’s not the same as saying its correct. So we simply disagree on that point.

    As for being “proud” — its not a question of being proud, its a question of whether you want him to succeed or you want him to fail.

    Dems clearly want him to fail.

    I think most NeverTrumpers want him to succeed because “by and large” his successes will dovetail with the policy agenda of a GOP congress, even if they aren’t lock-step in line with conservative doctrine.

    So, I think NeverTrumpers are in the unenviable position of hoping that he succeeds on a policy basis, while hating every minute of having to feel that way.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  237. thank you for the link Mr. shipwreck that confirms my suspicion that nobody really knows what it was Vladimir leaned over and said

    but i was struck not just by Mr. Trump’s poise in this meeting but by how it demonstrates what a commanding presence he has, and so effortlessly

    there’s no question who was the top dog in that tableau

    there’s a feeling you get when you look to the west

    Trump’s forthright; Putin merely deceiving

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  238. I would still be willing to bet my house that a small, petty man (that would be Trump, to eliminate any confusion) who daily reveals his obsession with the fixation that he is being mistreated by the news media (still talking about Trump) did not manage to get through a two-hour-plus meeting with his man-crush Vladimir (that would be Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia) without whining about said media obsession.

    And, as I noted in my update, the fact that Putin was willing to exploit this publicly is strong evidence that he brought it up privately as well.

    I hope that’s clearer.”

    Kind of – you have no proof but you’re willing to bet the house that Trump did and said exactly what you thought he would.

    harkin (7833f6)

  239. DRJ — Malta disproves you’re point.

    Nixon going to China disproves your point.

    Any President who has met with a Saudi Arabian King disproves your point.

    shipwreckedcrew (b2849d)

  240. “, its a question of whether you want him to succeed or you want him to fail.”

    Based on his performance versus gas-bagging promises, his LIES preclude any support from suckers who voted him in. So.yeah. His agenda clearly violates trust issues requiring his failure.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  241. Lavrov undoubtedly reads the NY Times each day, and my gueiess is he suggested to Putin that he try to bond with Trump by saying something negative about the media. It’s very much what Lavrov would do and it clearly worked.

    DRJ (15874d)

  242. What Presidents do and what they are supposed to do are not always the same.

    DRJ (15874d)

  243. @253- Vietnam, Watergate and Iran-Contra.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  244. “I have almost nothing in common with Republicans any more.

    What little I do is far overshadowed by the differences.

    Can someone find me a party where the people believe in limited government and the Constitution, and would never ever defend mass murder, or murders of journalists, by ruthless dictators?”

    Siriusly???

    The words “vicious” and “horrible” were lip service. “Yes, I know, I know, I am supposed to oppose what they did. Now that I’ve got that annoying triviality out of the way, let me drool some more over how STRONG they were!”

    You could provide a real public service if you would give a weekly recap of Trump’s public proclamations and break out which are lip service and which are serious and therefore ridiculous, disgusting and unpresidential, such as drooling envy of totalitarianism and government sanctioned murder.

    harkin (7833f6)

  245. The rizzotto tray 65, or the journalist (they overlap)

    narciso (d1f714)

  246. So, I think NeverTrumpers are in the unenviable position of hoping that he succeeds on a policy basis, while hating every minute of having to feel that way.

    I disagree. I woild welcome the success of a conservative President Trump but I fear he won’t be conservative. It has nothing to do with hate and everything to do with fear that he is an unreliable, uninformed, unprincipled person.

    DRJ (15874d)

  247. Jonathan Swan 3 hrs ago
    Glum House leaders begin search for fallbacks

    Manuel Balce Ceneta / AP
    House Republican leaders are beginning to give significant thought to what their exit-for-August bills look like if they don’t have healthcare to leave on.

    What we’re hearing: House members are super-anxious about health care, and the pessimism levels are rising about getting a bill from the Senate. As everyone predicted, including Mitch McConnell: the July 4 recess made a bad situation worse.
    The brutal math: Assuming Vice President Pence as the tie-breaker, Republicans can only lose 2 senators. There are at least 3 “hard” nays (Susan Collins of Maine, Rand Paul of Kentucky and Dean Heller of Nevada), and perhaps 5 (add Mike Lee of Utah and Ted Cruz of Texas). Lisa Murkowski of Alaska is on the bubble

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  248. “disagree. I woild welcome the success of a conservative President Trump but I fear he won’t be conservative. It has nothing to do with hate and everything to do with fear that he is an unreliable, uninformed, unprincipled person.”

    Cheers Drj.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  249. You’re working on me but I have deep hatred for crass hypocrites, Drj.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  250. And now Wikileaks is suggesting Julian Assange head the joint US-Russian cybersecurity unit. Can this get any more surreal? Would Trump even know why that shouldn’t happen?

    DRJ (15874d)

  251. People like sappy feet and narc burn my humanity creds.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  252. I don’t think I’ve said anything directly to you on this topic, Ben burn, and I’m not sure what you are saying to me. You need to clarify it for me.

    DRJ (15874d)

  253. that’s hyperbole

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  254. The ideologue whine; bitter dregs.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  255. TrumpKleagles..

    “For about a half-hour, around 50 members of the Klan — some wearing hooded white robes — shouted “white power” at Justice Park as more than 1,000 people protested their presence by hurling insults, water bottles and apple cores.”

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  256. And now Wikileaks is suggesting Julian Assange head the joint US-Russian cybersecurity unit. Can this get any more surreal? Would Trump even know why that shouldn’t happen?

    Hahahahaha if Trump picks him most here would defend it, no?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  257. You said I need more Christian qualities, or words to that effect. I’m angry and thanked you for relieving some stress.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  258. “Sean Spicier @sean_spicier

    Liberals: “Why is Ivanka sitting in on a women’s entrepreneurship forum? Get the guy that hates women back in there now!!”

    Jinbsltimore: replying to @sean_spicier

    She. Is. His. Daughter.
    The US is not a monarchy#republicanBS

    “Sean Spicier @sean_spicier

    Hillary. Sat. In. For. Bill. But. I. Bet. You. Don’t. Care”

    Is there a more entertaining twitter acct right now?

    harkin (7833f6)

  259. We have never assumed you had any since you pretended to have a dead son, you really make it hard to fulfill Luke 6:27, then again when one considered wretched creatures

    narciso (d1f714)

  260. “that’s hyperbole..”

    Heh. That meteorite you hitched your wagon to is digging a hole to China.

    Now THAT’S hyperbole.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  261. I didn’t mean to preach if it came across the way, but I do believe in trying to be as Christian as I can be.

    DRJ (15874d)

  262. Hahahahaha if Trump picks him most here would defend it, no?

    To catch a thief….

    kishnevi (158466)

  263. Listen narcoasswipe. I won’t suffer those lies any longer. My son’s are born alive and well and they managed to complete their military time without fgneocon interference. Now scamper off and murder some more San Salvador Nuns Mr Christian

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  264. Ben burn,

    I realize now you were talking to/about narciso and happyfeet. I misunderstood and thought you were talking to me. I’m sorry if I contributed to the misundersyanding or to you being upset.

    DRJ (15874d)

  265. Your not preachy Drj. I appreciate that.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  266. Listen narcoasswipe.

    Nope. That kind of talk doesn’t wash.

    narciso, lay off any observations about anyone’s personal life. BenBurnimanticleo, let’s can the personal attacks. Except you are allowed to call fake commenter happyfeet “fake commenter happyfeet” and indeed are encouraged to do so in every single comment you address to him. Because he’s a fake commenter.

    Please understand that fake commenter happyfeet has employed the propaganda technique of repeating the same bumper-sticker garbage for years now. I think it’s time fake commenter happyfeet experienced consistent pushback of the same sort.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  267. oh my goodness that is too reductionist

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  268. Why does this piece remind me of Shakespeare’s play “Much Ado About Nothing?” The idea that the Russians influenced the election is on a par with Chicken Little’s confusing being hit on the head by an acorn with the assumption that the sky is falling. I sincerely hope that it is ignorance that is fueling the story because ignorance can be cured but stupidity is forever.

    Michael Keohane (947544)

  269. slimy torture victim john mccain was wetting his adult undergarments again today about “russian interference”

    that’s how you can tell the whole thing’s a joke

    Senator John McCain, R-Arizona, said Sunday on “Face the Nation” that Russian President Vladimir Putin “got away with” trying to change the result of the 2016 U.S. presidential election, and that there has been “no penalty” for those attempts.

    “We know that Russia tried to change the outcome of our election last November. And they did not succeed,” McCain said. “But there was really sophisticated attempts to do so. So far they have not paid a single price for that.”

    “If you were Vladimir Putin, who I’ve gotten to know over the years, you’re sitting there and you got away with literally trying to change the outcome not just of our election. French election. Tried to overthrow the government of Montenegro, a beautiful little country,” McCain said.

    “And there has been no penalty whatsoever,” he added.

    there’s also been no proof whatsoever, disgusting senile coward

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  270. “Hayes complains that Trump let Russia skate entirely on its efforts to interfere with the United States presidential election. But where Hayes really hits home . . .”

    Uh . . . why would you trust ANYTHING Hayes says after he trots out that #fakenews talking point about Russian “interference” with the election? I don’t think you would if Hayes had accused Trump of letting Putin skate “for faking the moon landing”, but the “interference” claim is every bit as silly.

    (1) Keep in mind that the “interference” claim is meant to convey to the majority of the public that Trump colluded with Putin to hack into voting machines and change millions of votes to defeat Clinton. When you repeat Hayes’ claim without comment you are complicit in the manufacture of #fakenews, and you yourself become a threat to democracy.

    (2) When pressed (and when the public is not paying attention), the #fakenewsers like yourself concede that no, no actual hacking of machines or changing of votes occurred. Instead, the claim morphs into one that the Russians “influenced” the election.

    (3) When pressed further, the #fakenewsers admit that there was no actual “influence” on any voter. Rather, the claim becomes one that the Russians “attempted” to influence voters through the release of certain (deliberately unspecified) information about Clinton. In other words, the Russians engaged in lawful speech about the election.

    (4) Yes, LAWFUL — there was nothing illegal in any meaningful sense about the (alleged) Russian hacking into the DNC’s or Podesta’s e-mail servers. It would only be illegal if committed by a private citizen within the jurisdiction of the U.S. criminal justice system. State actors such as Putin and Russia clearly do not fall within that jurisdiction. Putin could not be brought before any domestic or international tribunal for what he (allegedly) did, any more than Obama could for tapping or otherwise intercepting Angela Merkel’s or Trump’s communications.

    (5) The claim that the Russians even attempted to influence the election is nonsense for two reasons. First, to evaluate what was being “attempted”, a subjective, partisan political judgment would have to be made about the probable effect of the release of the information to the electorate. For example, revealing that Clinton colluded with CNN to cheat at the debates could “influence” a voter in either direction. One voter might condemn her for her dishonesty, while another might applaud her for her cleverness and media connections. None of the 2 or 4 or 17 “intelligence” agencies which have colluded to spread this silly, anti-democratic lie about Russian “influence” have the competence or jurisdiction to make such political judgments. (And they are remarkably quiet about the indisputably illegal activities of 30 million Mexican nationals within our borders who agitated for Clinton).

    (6) Second, proof of even an intent to influence would depend on the subjective state of mind of Putin. The best evidence the intelligence agencies could possibly have of this would be a recorded video of him explicitly stating that he was releasing information about Clinton to help Trump win. But that proof would only have value if you considered Putin’s statements as credible or honest, or announced some reliable criteria to distinguish between his true and false utterances. It’s clear that you consider him lying scum, so to credit his statements for the limited purpose of bolstering your “attempted influence” theory is pure hackery.

    Proud Prolifer (1ed5c1)

  271. I think it is called “being diplomatic”
    You say nice things about people and act like we all left as best friends, working together.
    I don’t know why we’d take this at face value. Tillerson is not an idiot and has played this type of game before, but this time people will die.

    Stakes are very high and the two super powers have a very common interest: not getting dragged into the part of this cluster where we could likely wind up killing one another.
    Also this takes some pressure off of Jordan and Israel who are allies stuck living next to a bunch of crazy people

    Trump likes to leave meetings saying that they went well, the other leader is great… like with Xi. “We get along great….” then a few weeks later Trump notes disappointment with him over North Korea and makes it seem like maybe Xi is not living up to an agreement

    steveg (e8c34d)

  272. How OLD is Earth sappy tweet?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  273. it depends where you are in america it’s still realtively fresh

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  274. *relatively* fresh i mean

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  275. @258. You could provide a real public service if you would give a weekly recap of Trump’s public proclamations and break out which are lip service and which are serious and therefore ridiculous, disgusting and unpresidential, such as drooling envy of totalitarianism and government sanctioned murder.

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/new-york-times…list-of-trumps-lies…a…/2626971

    Oh. Right. “Fake news.”

    “Never mind what I told you! I’m telling you!!” – Captain Morton [James Cagney] ‘Mister Roberts’ 1955

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  276. Ive noticed many so-called Christians have rhino hide and don’t chase the spiritual nuggets of wisdom normally desired. Do they know what apostasy leads to?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  277. They certainly embrace the fossil record as Trilobites and other pre-cambrian nematods

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  278. We are all flawed humans but it is more noticeable when the flaws are exhibited by religious people.

    DRJ (15874d)

  279. even President Trump has flaws sometimes

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  280. The idea that the Russians influenced the election is on a par with Chicken Little’s confusing being hit on the head by an acorn with the assumption that the sky is falling.

    I do not assert that they influenced the election. How could I know? I assert that they tried to.

    Patterico (6467ac)

  281. From the Times: Twitter credited the Trump campaign for digging this out of the Times archives from 1995:

    After the collapse of the real estate market of the 1980’s, Mr. Trump’s company was left holding some $8.8 billion in debt, causing his personal net worth to drop to a low of about $1 billion in the red by 1991.

    But since then, his fortunes have changed. He continues to pursue the trademark trophy-style projects he is known for, such as a hotel and condominium project on the southwest corner of Central Park that is expected to open by late 1996.

    Indeed, about an hour before the luncheon, Mr. Trump and representatives from a Hong Kong development firm huddled over drawings and models for their planned Riverside South development, a 17-building project at the site of the old Pennsylvania Railroad yard on the West Side.

    In addition to his real estate ventures, revenues are strong throughout the casino business, where Mr. Trump is one of the most noteworthy operators, owning three gaming establishments in Atlantic City. “The market is quite vibrant,” said N. Bruce Turner, a gaming analyst at Solomon Brothers. “It has lifted Donald Trump’s vibrancy. Has he come back along with the market? No question.”

    The piece also includes this mini-gotcha, my emphasis:

    In a flattering speech, Lieut. Gov. Betsy McCaughey called Mr. Trump “the comeback kid.” Charles A. Gargano, who as chairman of the Empire State Development Corporation is himself considered one of the new powers of the state, joked about a Perot-Trump presidential ticket. “He would be the most loved Vice President since Spiro T. Agnew,” he said. Mr. Gargano, who heads the state’s economic development efforts, added, “Thank you for your tax dollars.”

    Trump’s businesses pay all sorts pf payroll and property taxes so that may not be a direct reference to Trump’s personal income tax.

    Posted by Tom Maguire on October 03, 2016 | Permalink | Comments (248)

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  282. These guys will put knives in their teeth for a cocker spaniel if it fetches their slippers. Trump is a model for bizness failures and tax dodges. No wonder they love him.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  283. what *evidence* is there Russia *tried* to influence the election?

    and if so what were their aims?

    to elect a President Trump?

    or to elect a diseased compromised criminal stinkypig?

    for the Russians, it would have been a binary choice you see

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  284. “to elect a President Trump?”

    Don’t feign historic ignorance and Biblical efficacy at the same time.

    Get your custom facts better customized

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  285. I do not assert that they influenced the election. How could I know? I assert that they tried to.

    Yes but isn’t a ‘response’ to a ‘try’ an influence in itself; it triggered a defensive action/response. Or did it.

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  286. More hysteria about a sensible and necessary action. We cooperate with international agreements setting the “rules of the road” on land, sea, air and space. It’s time to begin to discuss cyberspace with Russia and others. The nattering nabobs need a clue.
    Lawmakers Rip ‘Dangerously Naive’ Trump Plan to Work with Russia on Cybersecurity

    At a media availability in Kiev today with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, Secretary of State Rex Tilleson, who was the only other U.S. official in the Putin meeting, told reporters that what the U.S. and Russia agreed to “on the cyber front is to explore a framework under which we might begin to have agreement of how to deal with these very complex issues of cyber threats, cyber security, cyber intrusions.”

    “And this is a challenge, obviously, for us globally, so Russia is not the only nation that we’re going to have to begin to develop some way of how we as an international community are going to deal with what has emerged as an ever more complex issue,” Tillerson said. “And I think the election interference really shows how complicated the use of these types of tools are becoming. We have to find a way to begin to address that, and it’s not going to be only about Russia. It’s going to be about an international engagement as well.”

    crazy (11d38b)

  287. Steve 285:

    I think it is called “being diplomatic”

    We are supposed to have values and principles. Being diplomatic doesn’t mean betraying those values to please Putin, no matter how important he is.

    Further, Presidents don’t have to agree with everyone to be diplomatic, they only have to be courteous. I know you understand this because you disagree with people in a courteous way, but that doesn’t stop you from standing up for what you think.

    DRJ (15874d)

  288. Cybersecurity in general and election cybersecurity are very different things, crazy.

    DRJ (15874d)

  289. The only election hacking was done by dhs of the various secretary of state systems. The malware found on the server is not identifiable to fab, so why are presuming so.

    narciso (d1f714)

  290. cybersecurity is a siren’s call, calling for an even more robust state interference in the bowels of commerce, technology, and communications

    piglickers like execrable nevertrump coward john mccain are trying so hard to start a stampede

    save us fbi save us from the evil hackers

    fbi lol

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  291. Because?

    crazy (11d38b)

  292. this is the corrupt comeytarded fbi that

    never examined the hacked DNC server

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  293. Nappy teat: how old is the Earth?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  294. the erf is ripe my brotha

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  295. “I do not assert that they influenced the election. How could I know? I assert that they tried to.”

    As discussed above in #284, even the assertion that they “tried” is an evidence-free, unsourced exercise in political speculation outside the competence and jurisdiction of any of the intelligence agencies that make that vague and meaningless claim. It’s simply fake-moon-landing cuckoo. There is overwhelming evidence, however, that those who repeat the “inference” claim are engaged in an anti-democratic campaign to mislead the public into thinking that Trump colluded with Russia to hack voting machines and change the actual vote totals.

    Proud Prolifer (0dec09)

  296. Even Trump said he thought Russia and “other people” from other countries interfered in the 2016 election. See for yourself.

    DRJ (15874d)

  297. Sorry. Here’s the link.

    DRJ (15874d)

  298. I do not assert that they influenced the election. How could I know? I assert that they tried to.

    Patterico (6467ac) — 7/9/2017 @ 2:27 pm

    And I tried to dunk a basketball the other day too.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  299. oh the humanity

    the latest test flight of the hindenberg by those plucky nyt fake news propaganda sluts has crashed and burned

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  300. Attribution in cyber warfare is really tough, dare I say impossible.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  301. sleazy fbi turd robert mueller you know what to do

    HIRE MOAR HARVARDTRASH

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  302. I think diplomats often get into situations like : does Putin look fat in chartreuse?
    No, it makes him look like a midget is not a proper answer even if he does look like a midget in chartreuse.
    Diplomats often just say bland nonsense so as not to offend anyone

    Thank you for the compliment. I’ll keep trying to live up to it.

    steveg (e8c34d)

  303. I only dunk donuts.

    mg (31009b)

  304. DRJ @ 303. Tillerson’s explanation of what’s being discussed

    “on the cyber front is to explore a framework under which we might begin to have agreement of how to deal with these very complex issues of cyber threats, cyber security, cyber intrusions.”

    makes clear they’re talking about everything, not just the Russia-tried-to-screw-the-election stuff. This was considered and tabled as far back as the Clinton administration when we began to think about National Security in the Information Age. Off the top of my head the Geneva Conventions, Law of the Sea, Law of Armed Conflict, Open Skies, International Cooperation of Space Agencies and the ISS, and many others are examples of multinational agreements that promote cooperation and reduce conflict between and among the participants. No agreement eliminates espionage or criminal activities but they do help define them.

    crazy (11d38b)

  305. Trump specifically said he wanted a cybersecurity agreement for election hacking but he’s having second thoughts, probably because it was a stupid idea.

    DRJ (15874d)

  306. Like it’s ok if the Russians hack the Czechoslovakian and Austrian elections but they have to stay out of Poland and France?

    nk (dbc370)

  307. everyone should have their own personal cybersecurity agreement for election hacking I think

    we are the whirl we are the children

    what kind of monster wants to let the hackers do cyber all up in it

    cybersecurity starts with YOU

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  308. Loose keys sink keyboards?

    nk (dbc370)

  309. Thats a Thiel play, this cyber security agreement biz…

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  310. oh the humanity

    the latest test flight of the hindenberg by those plucky nyt fake news propaganda sluts has crashed and burned

    Their DEFENSE is that Trump Jr. wanted to meet with the Kremlin-connected lawyer to get dirt on Hillary.

    OK. Go with that!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  311. and what’s wrong with that, even if you grant that the hooch was “kremlin-connected” per se

    at the end of the day there was no dirt!

    the rooskies under the bed had no dirt!

    looks like corrupt fbi turdboy robert mueller’s gonna have to post moar want ads come morning 🙁

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  312. So … leaving aside that Zerohedge is Pravda-West for the nonce:

    This was a baby-seller who inveigled Dumbass Jr. into a meeting with promises of kompradat about Hillary when in fact her sponsor/accomplice Fusion Whatsis was building a false kompradat dossier about Dumbass Sr..

    Why can’t those f***ers ever admit that they did something stupid? Oh, I know. They can’t be stupid, they’re rich!

    nk (dbc370)

  313. even if Mr. Jr. got him some dirt on stinkypig

    what was he doing?

    just the job failmerican fake news cnn wapo nyt propaganda sluts refused to do!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  314. Well … maybe just maybe, just saying, you know, getting information about your election opponent from a Kemlin-connected Russian baby-sellers’ lawyer, might be viewed as collusion by some captious persons.

    nk (dbc370)

  315. a healthy collusion in defense of liberty ain’t no vice

    it’s not even a crime

    no matter how much harvardtrash corrupt fbi turdboy robert mueller adds to his payroll

    it’s still not even a crime

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  316. But if a Turk showed up, they’d kick people out of a booth and comp bottle service:

    http://www.yahoo.com/gma/american-college-graduate-beaten-death-greece-8-arrested-141806999–abc-news-topstories.htmlq

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  317. There’s more there than meets the eye. My daughter has been to Zakynthos a few times. It’s a popular summer vacation spot for Greeks. It’s one of the few places left with monk seals (monachus monachus) and loggerhead sea turtles (caretta caretta), both endangered species. Planes are not allowed to take off or land on Zakynthos at night in order not to disturb the turtles’ nesting sights.

    nk (dbc370)

  318. *sites*

    nk (dbc370)

  319. and what’s wrong with that, even if you grant that the hooch was “kremlin-connected” per se

    at the end of the day there was no dirt!

    This is where we are. fake commenter happyfeet now argues that there is no problem is the son of a Presidential candidate meets with a lawyer connected with the Kremlin, our enemy, hoping to get information useful against the opposition presidential candidate.

    OK then. Just so we’re clear.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  320. Yesterday: there is no evidence of any attempts at collusion.

    Today: if they tried to collude, that is no problem as long as they were not successful.

    Tomorrow: Of course they colluded! And they should have!

    Patterico (115b1f)

  321. I found a video of happyfeet and other fake commenters in action:

    Patterico (115b1f)

  322. yes yes it’s resourceful and plucky!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  323. Tomorrow: Of course they colluded! And they should have!

    Ahem:

    a healthy collusion in defense of liberty ain’t no vice

    it’s not even a crime

    no matter how much harvardtrash corrupt fbi turdboy robert mueller adds to his payroll

    it’s still not even a crime

    happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/9/2017 @ 7:14 pm

    nk (dbc370)

  324. So the mainstream media wet itself in glee over a potentially harmful dossier created by foreigners and financed by Never Trumpers and Democrats that claimed Trump was hiring Russian hookers to do wet work.

    But now meeting with someone claiming to have opposition research conducted by non-Americans is evil?

    harkin (7833f6)

  325. ut now meeting with someone claiming to have opposition research conducted by non-Americans is evil

    Yes, “non-Americans” fully conveys the problem here. There is no blatant straw man there. No, sir.

    Patterico (6467ac)

  326. it’s time for meemies

    now i lay me down to sleep i pray the lord our trump to keep

    freedom’s foes please keep at bay

    our fears of noisome pigs allay

    tomorrow we’ll be rested then

    we’ll make America great again!

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  327. So says fake commenter happyfeet

    Patterico (6467ac)

  328. shh i’m doin sleep sleeps

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  329. Are these like Aberdeenshire, Scotland non-Americans?

    It’s not that it’s evil as much as it’s dumb. What was Dumbass Jr. hoping to get from the Russkies? Hillary’s secret Smersh codename?

    nk (dbc370)

  330. What was Claire mcdimwit meeting with lavrov about again?

    narciso (d1f714)

  331. Got that from Milo Yiannopoulos, didn’t you? Kislyak is the ambassador, not Lavrov. Lavrov is the foreign minister and I don’t think he has a home in DC. I’ll tell you, sometimes I doubt that Milo is giving us the straight facts.

    But I’ll bite. What was Claire McCaskill meeting with the Russian ambassador about? Was it for ways to influence the Presidential election?

    nk (dbc370)

  332. Since he was for deputy foreign min its a matter of dates, and no it came from chuck grassley, whose been the only one investigating this travismockashAm

    narciso (d1f714)

  333. Fake news, unless you personally heard Grassley say it. Lavrov has been foreign minister since 2004; Kislyak ambassador since 2008. But the misnomer is not the issue. What did McCaskill and Sessions and just about every other Senator at one time or another meet with Kislyak about?

    nk (dbc370)

  334. Grudgingly I must admit DJTJs act of devotion was more artful than “Vote for Cuomo, not the Homo”

    urbanleftbehind (847a06)

  335. Well. The 30 dems mostly the rhodes road show, (the deal with the sepah which is treason with a capital t)

    narciso (d1f714)

  336. No, ulb, not Ed Koch! He served in the 104th Infantry Division in WWII The Big One. Now I’ll admit the Marines are questionable, and the Navy no doubt about it, but the infantry is a pretty butch bunch.

    nk (dbc370)

  337. I thought he was a little flaky, but compared to the sleestaks that same after. Him, xinkons mark freen. Wiener. And decommio he was a titan.

    narciso (d1f714)

  338. Ooopsie!

    crazy (11d38b)

  339. “Yes, non-Americans fully conveys the problem here.”

    Comey pulled tried that silly line about how only Americans are allowed to “influence” their elections (again, I’ve yet to see this blog express HORROR over Clinton colluding with 30 million Mexican nationals illegally agitating within our borders, or, for that matter, colluding with the NYT whose largest shareholder, Carlos Slim) is a Mexican national). And again (see #284) there was nothing unlawful about Putin’s alleged hacking of the DNC and Podesta e-mails.

    Unless you can show (you can’t!) that Trump colluded with Putin to hack the emails, you have NOTHING. Merely meeting with a Russian lawyer (or even Putin himself) to obtain the information after-the-fact isn’t collusion, anymore than pulling up the Wikileaks link to look at it would be. That would be true even if the information was obtained illegally (it wasn’t!) But perhaps you subscribe to the Chris Cuomo school of “it’s illegal for anyone but us credentialed journalists to read these terrible documents.

    Keep pushing the “inference” meme! It’s a certain winner for the 2018 midterms!

    Proud Prolifer (e38d6c)

  340. “But I’ll bite. What was Claire McCaskill meeting with the Russian ambassador about? Was it for ways to influence the Presidential election?”

    Even Obama and his hot mic gaffe was not as bad as Ted Kennedy sending John Tunney to collude with Russia to hack an election.

    http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/10/ted-kennedy-secretly-asked-the-soviets-to-intervene-in-the-1984-elections/

    harkin (7833f6)

  341. So meeting a Russian Lawyer once to get non existent information on HRC is “collusion” to steal an election from HRC?

    Talk about moving a goal post.

    Patterico and the rest are making the goal post the size of the Atlantic.

    Please, you are making fools of yourselves.

    Worse yet, if the information is TRUE then explain to me what the conspiracy is?

    To tell the truth?

    You lawyers are mental. Get medications.

    Like Trump firing Comey for covering up the TRUTH and you call that a cover up.

    Again you are sick in the head.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  342. So meeting a Russian Lawyer once to get non existent information on HRC is “collusion” to steal an election from HRC?

    So Blah thinks Trump engaged in treason?

    [Just using the Trumper device of saying “So [insert false characterization of opponent’s argument here]?”]

    Patterico (115b1f)

  343. Putin has become the boogey man to our mentally ill NeverTrumpers.

    Much how the Devil became the catch all figure by the Church to bamboozle and intimidate people.

    Fact is using Putin is much like SJWs screaming waysssisisssssmmmmm every time they lose an argument.

    Trump had a great trip!….. PUTIN!,,,

    Get medications boys, you are ill.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  344. Patterico, you lost it. Go back to hugging your Ted Cruz blow up therapy / emotional support doll.

    Blah (44eaa0)

  345. One-week vacation, Blah.

    If I remember to unmoderate you in a week.

    There’s no reason I should have to pay for someone to speak to me like that. So I won’t.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  346. Eh, why make it a week? Blah adds nothing. Let’s make it permanent.

    Pour encourager les autres.

    You just witnessed a spectacle of rudeness that gets someone banned. Who else wants to try?

    Patterico (115b1f)

  347. And again (see #284) there was nothing unlawful about Putin’s alleged hacking of the DNC and Podesta e-mails.

    ….

    (4) Yes, LAWFUL — there was nothing illegal in any meaningful sense about the (alleged) Russian hacking into the DNC’s or Podesta’s e-mail servers. It would only be illegal if committed by a private citizen within the jurisdiction of the U.S. criminal justice system. State actors such as Putin and Russia clearly do not fall within that jurisdiction. Putin could not be brought before any domestic or international tribunal for what he (allegedly) did, any more than Obama could for tapping or otherwise intercepting Angela Merkel’s or Trump’s communications.

    Good Allah!

    nk (dbc370)

  348. Keep in mind that the “interference” claim is meant to convey to the majority of the public that Trump colluded with Putin to hack into voting machines and change millions of votes to defeat Clinton. When you repeat Hayes’ claim without comment you are complicit in the manufacture of #fakenews, and you yourself become a threat to democracy.

    Puh-fucking-leeze.

    They tried to interfere. Period. I don’t care that certain partisans have twisted the claim into a false one of hacking voting machines. That’s not what I said and that’s not what Hayes said. I myself become a “threat to democracy”? Holy overwrought hyperbole, Batman!

    When pressed (and when the public is not paying attention), the #fakenewsers like yourself concede that no, no actual hacking of machines or changing of votes occurred. Instead, the claim morphs into one that the Russians “influenced” the election.

    My claim, Mr. Propaganda Machine, has always been that they tried to influence the election. Your claim that I ever said anything about voting machines is #fakenews #fakenews #fakenews!!!!1!!1!

    (3) When pressed further, the #fakenewsers admit that there was no actual “influence” on any voter. Rather, the claim becomes one that the Russians “attempted” to influence voters through the release of certain (deliberately unspecified) information about Clinton. In other words, the Russians engaged in lawful speech about the election.

    (4) Yes, LAWFUL — there was nothing illegal in any meaningful sense about the (alleged) Russian hacking into the DNC’s or Podesta’s e-mail servers. It would only be illegal if committed by a private citizen within the jurisdiction of the U.S. criminal justice system. State actors such as Putin and Russia clearly do not fall within that jurisdiction. Putin could not be brought before any domestic or international tribunal for what he (allegedly) did, any more than Obama could for tapping or otherwise intercepting Angela Merkel’s or Trump’s communications.

    Totally! Just like murder is not illegal if you do it out of the jurisdiction! Your reputation for legal genius predeceases you.

    Quit while you’re behind.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  349. It’s a cornucopia of idiocy tonight.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  350. nk (dbc370) — 7/9/2017 @ 7:36 pm

    There’s more there than meets the eye. My daughter has been to Zakynthos a few times. It’s a popular summer vacation spot for Greeks. It’s one of the few places left with monk seals (monachus monachus) and loggerhead sea turtles (caretta caretta), both endangered species. Planes are not allowed to take off or land on Zakynthos at night in order not to disturb the turtles’ nesting sights.

    I’m glad that your daughter got to see the turtles. But I am going to introduce what may seem a discordant note. I paid for it. Lions are poisoned to extinction when they have no value. I can guarantee we will have deer and elk and bison as long as I can hunt them.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  351. I’m starting to suspect that spending time in the comments section is a poor use of my time.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  352. If someone has a burning need for a response from me in the near future, ask now. Like right now. Time is running short.

    Patterico (115b1f)

  353. Where else would you learn the etymology of palo and the scientific name of the loggerhead turtle?

    nk (dbc370)

  354. Patterico (115b1f) — 7/9/2017 @ 9:28 pm

    It’s a cornucopia of idiocy tonight.

    Just tonight?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  355. Not even a full moon.

    mg (31009b)

  356. Patterico,

    any thoughts on Jerry Brown and the Dems suing the private citizens that petitioned to recall the democrat that was the deciding vote in the gas tax in California?

    NJRob (7f4bec)

  357. now we have a President who won’t lie either

    Hahahahahahaha

    5 points for every time Kurt writes a column with the word “sissy”

    Patterico (115b1f)

  358. Oh, that guy? Schlichter? His writing is like his description of his background. He calls himself a Retired Army Colonel of ~28 years of service. What he was, was Army National Guard.

    From the National Guard FAQ:

    When will I serve?
    You’ll train (also called “drill”) one weekend per month plus a two-week period each year. For most of the training weekends, you’ll be with us Saturday and Sunday only, though occasionally you’ll be asked to report for duty on a Friday night. Annual training can run slightly longer, depending on your Military Occupational Specialty (MOS). In case of Active Duty, you will serve whenever you are needed and called.

    But he doesn’t lie, either.

    nk (dbc370)

  359. @335. LOLOLOLOL

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  360. 371 – more CA craziness:

    California Looking to Give Unions Private Workers’ Phone Numbers, Addresses

    http://reason.com/archives/2017/07/07/california-legislature-looking-to-give-u

    harkin (7833f6)

  361. typical crochet response from the no Trumper. I dare you to say that to friends of mine who came back without all their limbs. Being in the Army National Guard in Iraq is a piece of cake, gfy, nk.

    mg (31009b)

  362. Old man booooosh was so pathetic we received the Clinton crime family. The kid was so effing stupid we ended up with obama. And he killed Americans like they were walking into an oven. Blame Trump.

    mg (31009b)

  363. 136 minutes. “Expect aggression from Putin during Trump’s presidency. Yesterday’s meeting assured it” really?

    instagram online (f42340)

  364. dailycaller.com/2017/07/07/va-to-post-employee-firings-stop-rewarding-employees-for-bogus-discrimination-claims/?utm_campaign=atdailycaller&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

    narciso (d1f714)

  365. (1) “They tried to interfere. Period.”

    In all your empty characterization and word salad, you never specify what you mean by “interference” or even “tried”. Adding emphasis with “Period!” (or 17 intelligence agencies agree!) doesn’t change the fact that “Russian interference” is just a dog whistle for “Trump colluded”. It’s the liberals’ way of delegitimizatizing the election and stalling Trump’s agenda, so yes, it’s anti-democratic. I haven’t seem this kind of insanely obsessive coverage of the much more serious Chinese extraction of U.S. personnel records or the clearly illegal participation of Mexican nationals in our election process. Because it’s not connected with Trump.

    (2) “My claim . . . has always been that they tried to influence . . .”

    An evidence-free nonsense claim that I addressed, without refutation, in parts (5) and (6) of #284.

    (3) “Totally! Just like murder is not illegal . . .”

    No, totally like a killing does not meet the legal definition of “murder” when it’s performed by particular persons in a particular place under particular circumstances. You might be surprised to learn that many killings (the execution of an inmate, or shooting of an enemy soldier) do not constitute murder because they are performed or sanctioned by state actors. And it would be quite silly to claim that everyone in America is committing crimes by dressing in a particular way merely because somewhere in the world “immodesty” is a capital offense under Sharia law.

    You can’t seriously be arguing that Putin’s or Russia’s ordinary, every day intelligence activities are illegal. Are you? Is there some domestic or international statute or norm governing his “interference” that would facilitate his being arrested arrested like Noriega or Milosevic? If so, why aren’t you frothing at the mouth about the similar, everyday cyberspying activities of the US and every country in Earth.

    Answer: Because Trump!

    Proud Prolifer (8d9ee7)

  366. This seems to be the Trump thread, so…

    If I understand today’s NYT story correctly.

    1. Donald Trump, Jr. met with a lawyer (who I guess is Russian herself?) who claimed to have dirt on Hillary. Somehow, this meeting got set up through beauty pagent connections. Manafort and Kushner were there too.

    2. The lawyer has big Russian clients.

    3. The meeting, per DJT Jr, was useless.

    4. The meeting was not initially disclosed on government forms. These disclosures now have been added.

    What’s missing — but worth investigation. Did any of the parties involved know that the lawyer was super-connected in Russia, and a possible conduit of dirt from Russia hacking? More to the legal point, should they have known this, based on their knowledge. (Manafort, in particulalr, might have had a good idea of who the players were).

    Objections? Thoughts? If our prosecutor host is not too disgusted with us, where should this story go?

    Appalled (96665e)

  367. The question is: “Why would the Russians to help Trump? What’s in it for them?” What do they expect to get besides the obvious — a ridiculous buffoon who will weaken America while Russia gets stronger? (As if that’s not enough.) THAT is the point of the whole Russia thing!!!1!

    nk (dbc370)

  368. So if a Russian hacker in Kiev hacks into Proud Prolifer’s bank account in Deepinaharta, Idaho and transfers all his money to the hacker’s account in the Caymans, it would not be illegal. Вы поняли, товарищи?

    nk (dbc370)

  369. That’s. What actually happened with the exchanges, becauseif a network that first consorts college classmate actually designed

    narciso (d1f714)

  370. Which was a violation of hipaa standards same for opm there hasn’t been one closet that hasn’t been ransaclrd in this administration.

    narciso (d1f714)

  371. 379, 383. MG, you might be helping Tammy Duckworth gain national acceptance and not even know it. Schlicter boy would have been Fostered by now in an HRC or other 16 R presidency.

    urbanleftbehind (3538cb)

  372. Lets establish a couple markers for claims of “collusion” and what the campaign has been accused of up to this point in time:

    1. There’s is no report yet that I’m aware of that Trump Jr. knew the meeting was with a foreigner. His statement at this point — and he’s given a statement to investigators already — is that he didn’t know who he was meeting with when it was arranged.

    2. The “collusion” charge has always been a) involving Russian gov’t officials, i.e., Flynn and the Ambassador, Kushner and the Banker of a state controlled bank, etc., 3) Manafort and the Putin-backed Ukraine gov’t; — AND that the actions by the Russians connected to the campaign were illegal, i.e., hacking into the DNC computer system.

    At this point — and I emphasize as of this morning — it still looks like the meeting was a setup. The involvement of an Oppo Research firm like Fusion GPS on the payroll of the Russian lawyer is a coincidence too significant to be ignored.

    But even if it wasn’t intended to set up Trump Jr. on the idea that there were campaign contacts with the Russians in the summer of 2016, then it was most certainly a set-up by the Russian lawyer looking to get face-time with the Trump campaign so she could pitch her personal hobby-horse, the Magistsky Act. In the summer of 2016, all the polling and press reporting was on the fact that Trump was going to lose to Clinton by 20+ points. So you promise them you have something that might help them, and they agree to meet.

    Shocking.

    shipwreckedcrew (d296aa)

  373. @340: What if the person offering the information was Canadian?

    What if she was ethic Russian, but was born and raised in Ukraine or Estonia?

    What if she was ethnic Russian, but had lived in the US for 25 years, having left Russian when the Soviet Union collapsed?

    Doesn’t your condemnation depend on knowing something about her background?

    shipwreckedcrew (d296aa)

  374. @385 — One key fact not obvious from your list is that DT Jr. is not now a gov’t official, and never has had an obligation to list the meetings with anyone.

    It was Kushner who initially filed a form with the FBI for his security clearances on which he didn’t list any meeting with foreign officials, which was an obvious mistake, since he had more than 100 such meetings during the campaign and the transition. His attorney is Jaime Gorelick, who certainly understands all the requirements. So when the issue arose, she notified the FBI that Kushner would be amending his filing to include the contacts once they got all the details together. It was apparently Kushner’s filing that first revealed the meeting. Based on Kushner’s filing, Trump Jr. gave a statement to investigators. Not sure if that means it was Congressional investigators, or Mueller’s team.

    shipwreckedcrew (d296aa)

  375. I agree we need to know more. My assumption is that Jr was trying to help his Dad and, more important, trying to convince his Dad that he could be helpful. Without more, he could be more foolish than conniving.

    DRJ (15874d)

  376. swc at #393:

    Fair enough. I think what the press is trying to do is to prove the Trump campaign knowing got hot Hillary dope from Russian Intelligence, or the Trump campaign knowingly urged their buddies in the Kremlin to hack into wherever to get that hot Hillary dope.

    This story creates a contact between somebody Russia, who maybe, kind of, by reference, might be associated with, in some way, somehow, official Russia, and DJT, Jr. That’s all. It’s not necessarily nothing, but probably isn’t all that much.

    Appalled (96665e)

  377. I wouldn’t be so invested in collusion if it weren’t part of the Trifecta of treason, emoluements and Tax history.

    E moluements is murky for the public eye glaze. Treason is easier and the master key is TAXES.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  378. Aren’t Trump’s sons running his businesses day-to-day? This is one more reason why Trump’s decision to stay involved in his businesses (instead of walling himself off) will be a problem. Anything his sons do is connected to Trump.

    When Bill Clinton’s brother-in-law and Jimmy Carter’s brother made bad business decisions, it was news but only for a few days. That won’t be the case for Trump’s family because Trump and his family are still in business together.

    DRJ (15874d)

  379. It also establishes a willingness from DJT, Jr to get that hot Hillary dope from somebody who might be connected with Russian Intelligence (if we jump through 20 pages of caveats, and look at this with the most jaundinced eye). I think there has to be some guilty knowledge on the part of a meeting participant, and some actual dirt being dished before this gets interesting.

    Appalled (96665e)

  380. Ben burn 396:

    When did “follow the money” become “follow the spies”?

    Appalled (96665e)

  381. Some financial forensics needed appalled but again…murkey. Imagine how receptive sTrumpets will be. We need his fingerprints on the smoking gun.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  382. addled cowardly torture victim John McCain colluded to disseminate a bogus document filled with Russian misinformation about prostitutes making pee pee

    this bogus document was used by the corrupt comey FBI to meddle in the election by tricking the FISA court into authorizing illegal spying on Americans

    until nevertrump starts taking this illegal activity by slimy torture trash and fbi thugsluts seriously you can tell they’re not really concerned about colludes

    they just want to smear President Trump cause they have a butthurt that the American people emphatically rejected snooty harvardtrash ted and his grimacing harvardtrash sacky

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  383. So if a Russian hacker in Kiev hacks into Proud Prolifer’s bank account in Deepinaharta, Idaho and transfers all his money to the hacker’s account in the Caymans, it would not be illegal.

    Is the hacker a state actor engaged in intelligence gathering? Doesn’t sound like it.

    Proud Prolifer (8d9ee7)

  384. A full year of denial from DJT, Manafort, Priebus, KellyAnne, Spicer, Sessions, and who knows who else that……..

    no meetings of any kind ever occurred between the Trump campaign and the Russian government.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  385. you know who was russian was Origa she’s the lady that did the sings for Ghosts in the Shells

    she died so young – just 44 years old

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  386. The most damaging thing is what Donald Trump Jr. admitted to in the statement,” he said. “It is a crime to solicit or accept anything of value from a foreign national in a campaign.

    “Now, the thing of value has never come up in this context before because we’ve never had a campaign like this that potentially colluded with a foreign government. In other cases, bribery and extortion cases, ‘thing of value’ doesn’t have to be money. It has to be something tangible but not money.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  387. Kushner is an odd duck. He seems to float around like an ether cloud. Is he a synthetic or alien hybrid? Does he have a belly button?.

    As we have previously stated, Mr. Kushner’s SF-86 was prematurely submitted and, among other errors, did not list any contacts with foreign government officials,” he said in the statement.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  388. I would call oppo research a thing of tangible value, and use the campaign’s own operating budget to make my point.

    nk (dbc370)

  389. Err, correct if I’m wrong, but campaigns do pay for their oppo research, don’t they? It’s not something that falls from the sky, right?

    nk (dbc370)

  390. I would call oppo research a thing of tangible value

    what is the tangible value of slimy torture victim John McCain’s bogus pee-pee dossier?

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  391. OPPO research? Do you mean trading dirt with Russia on foes?

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  392. Just going with the facts as admitted. That Dumbass Jr. met with the lady baby-seller lawyer because he thought she was going to give him dirt on Hillary. If that is not “oppo reasearch”, then what is “oppo research”?

    nk (dbc370)

  393. but hello he didn’t get any dirt on hillary so there was no oppo research and no tangibles

    even if the russian hooch had brought russian information, there’s nothing wrong with receiving it

    if there is then slimy p.o.s. torture victim John McCain should be put back in his cage

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  394. Unlike the democrats who turned the big eyes and ears of government on anyone and everything associated with the republican nominee on based on what? Rumors and innuendo coming over the transom from shaky sources relying on dodgy methods. If anyone from either party engaged in wrongdoing they should be held accountable. So far only those leaking privileged information appear to have crossed the line.

    crazy (11d38b)

  395. Slimey McCain served with honor hf.

    You? (Trumping distraction, no action follows)

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)

  396. One problem with the conduct of dipllomacy is that they assume that what somebody tells you they want, they actually want. That might be true in labor negotiation – that isn’t true wuth this kind of thingh.

    Sammy Finkelman (02a146)

  397. This is very interesting. Can’t vouch for the source but the analysis, if true, blows up the “DNC was hacked (remotely) by the Russians” narrative and instead supports the conclusion that the DNC files in question were copied onto a USB drive by someone with physical access.

    crazy (11d38b)

  398. “DNC files in question were copied onto a USB drive by someone with physical access.”

    I’ve been waiting for Breibart fruit to ripen on the HumaWiener hack. I truly believe they are right in the mix.

    Ben burn (b3d5ab)


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