The Strength of Our Values Lies Not In Their Being Popular, But Being RIGHT
Perhaps the most inspiring thing I read today was this passage from my friend Ken White at Popehat:
Our values do not die just because you might interpret an election as rejecting them (more on that later). You don’t hold on to your values because they’re popular, you hold onto them because they’re right and just and they make you who you are. America’s history is full of popular fidelity to our stated values ebbing and flowing, and of Americans stubbornly holding on to those ideas in the dark times.
The values of which Ken speaks are not identical to my values in every respect; he is less of a fan of law enforcement than I, for example. But we share several core beliefs, among them being “[t]he rule of law, the equality of all people (feeble or powerful) before that law, freedom of thought and speech and worship, [and] strict limits on the power of the state over the individual.”
Talking heads have already started lecturing us about the death of conservatism. Populism wins the day, we are told again and again. Fans of limited government, the free market, liberty, the rule of law, and the Constitution might as well hang it up and go home, because this is Donald Trump’s world now. I don’t think so. This feels like a low point for classical liberal principles, to be sure . . . but we should let that inspire us further, not beat us down. Defeatism is for losers. These principles are true American principles, and they always have been; they are the principles that truly could make America great again.
I won’t give up on them. The members of my group The Constitutional Vanguard won’t give up either. If you support liberty, the free market, and the Constitution, join us.
There is another thing I want to discuss: how should the losers in this election be treated — especially those worried about the bigotry of the worst of the Trumpers? Yuval Levin has some thoughts on that:
In a similar spirit, and even more important, we should also recognize that for many Americans, regardless of their politics, this turn of events cannot help but be somewhat frightening. They have been witness in recent months not only to talk of Donald Trump’s obvious proclivities to viciousness but also to evidence of the depravity of some—a few, to be sure, but some—among his supporters. I have myself experienced a torrent of anti-Semitism that I had pleasantly imagined might not exist in America, and others have experienced and witnessed far worse.
To acknowledge that some among our fellow citizens have this concern is not to say that Trump’s support is rooted in racism, which it is not. It is not to say that his concerns about immigration are fundamentally xenophobic, which they are not. It is only to say that as good neighbors and good citizens we ought to be sensitive to the fears and concerns of those with whom we share this wonderful country. We must see that their worries, even if ultimately not well founded in the reality of the election, are nonetheless rooted in some realities of American life that have been both made clearer and exacerbated by this election season. And it is incumbent upon us on the Right, perhaps especially among those who championed Trump but also among those who didn’t, to offer some respectful, even loving, reassurance. It is above all incumbent upon Trump himself to offer reassurance that such worries, experienced by some as genuinely existential worries, are unfounded with regard to him, and to be clear that whatever his past he will not govern as a bully. His remarks last night certainly gestured toward such reassurance, which was very good to see.
And Ken White has further thoughts about how this might be scary for some people:
This result is genuinely horrifying to many people, and reasonably so. We can hope that Trump does not pursue policies overtly hostile to minorities of all sorts, and we can fight like hell if he tries. But whether you think Trump is racist or not, whether you think the result was an endorsement of racism or not, Trump’s campaign was accompanied by a groundswell of explicitly bigoted sentiment, one that I maintain he courted and did not effectively reject. Across the country, ethnic and religious and sexual minorities are afraid of what will happen to them. My daughter, like many, has heard talk about which classmates would no longer be allowed to stay in America. I know people who are genuinely afraid, and I don’t blame them — I think Trump’s rhetoric invited the fear, some segments of his supporters made it a realistic fear, and that there will likely be an upsurge in bigotry and violence. As a well-off white guy in the suburbs I’m lucky — my kids, not white, are somewhat less lucky. My friends and neighbors, of various ethnicities and religious and identities, are even less.
Now. I laugh at the clowns at Vox who claim: “Trump’s win is a reminder of the incredible, unbeatable power of racism.” They should be mocked for that. But part of our spirit of graciousness should be reserved for understanding the feelings of people who see some of the ugly bigoted sentiments of the worst of Trump’s supporters, and worry that this attitude will become more prevalent. Many people have witnessed Trump’s vindictive and cruel streak, and worry that he will use the levers of government to satisfy that thirst for vengeance. Showing triumphalism towards such people is not only wrong, it also ignores the fact that this was hardly a trouncing. Hillary may yet prove to have won the popular vote, so it was close. And the day will come when Democrats are back on top.
Laughing at the actual jerks who scream racisms!! at every turn is both justified and therapeutic. But assuming that anyone distressed about this result is being melodramatic ignores the evidence of Donald Trump’s entire life and the way he ran his campaign. I said this morning that I want to concentrate on the positive, and I do — at least today. But I won’t pretend he is someone he is not, and when people see the reality of who he is, and say he frightens them, I will not mock them.
Finally, as I said this morning: to the extent that Donald Trump wants to promote liberty, the free market, and the Constitution, I stand with him. But to the extent that he tries to ignore the separation of powers, impose ruinous tariffs or regulations, pass giant “jobs” bills or “infrastructure” bills that we can’t afford, raise the minimum wage, increase the government’s role in health care, and the like . . . well, as to that stuff: I hope he fails.
There, I said it.
[Cross-posted at RedState.]
Here’s some thoughts on why we saw the results we did… http://michellemalkin.com/2016/11/08/identity-politics-in-america-a-post-mortem/
Colonel Haiku (d4a566) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:02 pmSome sore loser people are out in the streets reining in Trump right now!
Colonel Haiku (d4a566) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:04 pmPure, unadulterated, indifference to the masses of willfully ignorant SJW’s, academics, media is the correct way to handle them.
Do not engage. Do not acknowledge. Do not listen. Those people made nullities of themselves. Treat them as such. Treat them as they have treated us.
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:07 pmSo you mock the idea of reining in the executive and subjecting regulations to the approval of Congress?
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:09 pmthey will be framed as such, there are no policies that the left advances that can work, recall latinos despised cruz nearly as much as trump, despite his sober demeanor, on the question of immigration,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:10 pmGiven the word “reining” I feel like you’re mocking me and my post earlier. Did you read it? Or did you just read the title? Did I come across as a sore loser in that post?
What do I need to do? Get down on bended knee? How long have you been reading me again? Does that seem likely? Would you respect that?
Or are you not mocking me, and your use of the word is just a coincidence?
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:11 pmso foval or whatever nazgul replaced him, are back to work
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/11/09/dncs-paid-left-wing-moonbats-march-again-cupcake-nation-protests/#more-124384
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:13 pmToo little and too late for that unless the Republican leadership in Congress grow a pair or are replaced with those who will.
Colonel Haiku (d4a566) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:13 pmI’ll just say that the spin of this election may well last until the next one.
Was this a sounding approval of racism and bigotry?
Well, Duke’s 3% of the vote in LA suggests that outright racism is pretty small.
Was this a repudiation of leftist policies? of the first black president’s agenda?
of corruption and lawlessness?
Does anyone remember that more votes were against Trump than for him during primary competition,
and that suggests this was overwhelmingly an “anyone but Clinton, anyone but a Dem” result
Who is unwelcome in this country?
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:14 pmIllegal immigrants who are guilty of felonies are around the top of the list
people who are in favor of violent jihad and want to kill people and blow up things aren’t welcome either
people who otherwise want to undermine the rule of law
recall how voldemort forwarded the voter fraud malware through out the 00s, what is their next big cause,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:14 pmPatterico, I’m finding it hard to settle into to a sober and serious discussion on the merits with a guy who seems to sincerely believe Trump is the worst human being ever. The guy has a great many serious flaws but c’mon… you were kidding right? I riffed on your headline.
Colonel Haiku (d4a566) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:21 pmin 1990, there was a change election in peru, alan garcia, as one of the last gasps of nationalism before the chavez wave, nationalized the bank, this provoked vargas llosas urbane populists, but in the end he was beat by the more rough hewn fujimori, who ruled for a decade
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:22 pmI’m not asking for or expecting anything, at this point, but usually find interesting topics and some fine commenting here.
Colonel Haiku (d4a566) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:23 pmI sincerely believe that Trump may be steered into doing the right thing… do some good that is desperately needed. And I’m very sincere about that.
Colonel Haiku (d4a566) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:25 pmso the supporters which had to run through a gauntlet in san jose and albuquerque, who were laid siege in chicago by foval’s phalanx’s where is concern for them,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:25 pmTrump’s share of the white vote was lower than Romney’s. His shares of the minority votes were higher.
Those who think this was about racism say that because that’s what they always say. They have literally no other way to think about this.
Gabriel Hanna (c791b9) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:26 pmI never understood why populism and conservatism are considered inconsistent. Is it a question of definitions, particularly that of “conservatism”? Enlighten me. What more is there to conservatism besides “Live your life right”?
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:27 pmHey Ken,
How about fighting for the rule of law instead of violating it because they’re friends of someone you know. The MS13 gangbanger thanks you for your support.
NJRob (f6d275) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:30 pmAs for the principles thing, though some here have accused me of being the Voice of the Serpent for saying so–I agree, it does not matter if your principles are popular or not, stick to them for being right, and I have never said a word different.
It is the actions you take which will lead to your principles being followed by a larger share of society, or a smaller share–if you want others to share your principles anyway. In a democracy, winning elections is one of those things that can help–though not necessary or sufficient to make it happen. Yes, hearts and minds can be won, but they will be won much more easily and more quickly if they are accompanied by worldly success.
And that will mean cooperating with people who do not share you principles. Sometimes even when they want to go against your principles. Life is full of trade-offs, and I agree that that’s not the way it SHOULD be, but that’s the way it is.
Gabriel Hanna (c791b9) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:31 pmI found this comment at Althouse amazing:
“Trump won because he got significant Bernie Sanders votes from the industrial and agricultural heartland to go along with the deplorable rust belt vote.
Trumbull County Ohio went for Obama by 22 points in 2012. In 2016, Trump won by over 7. That’s a 30 point swing in 4 years. That’s insane. Hillary and the DNC absolutely blew this big time.”
Colonel Haiku (d4a566) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:36 pmGabriel, or anyone, where have you seen a real good breakdown of the numbers?
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:38 pmThanks
“Trump’s win is a reminder of the incredible, unbeatable power of racism.”
I didn’t know Hillary was black.
AZ Bob (f7a491) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:38 pmThe thing you have to decide is this:
Is it more important for me to act according to my principles in every situation?
or
Is it more important that my principles be accepted by more people so that society itself reflects my principles more than it does now?
It is not always the same course of action that accomplishes both these ends, and sometimes you cannot pursue one without getting farther from the other. I did not make the world, I am just the messenger here. I have no explanation for why things are that way but they are.
Think of the principles that Jesus of Nazareth propounded. Many thousands of people followed him, probably because he exemplified those principles. But Christianity did not become the religion of the Empire until an Emperor was converted, and then it progressed partly at sword’s point and partly by emulation: people who didn’t necessarily care much one way or another became Christians because so many others were doing so.
Gabriel Hanna (c791b9) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:39 pmI’ve seen % breakdowns, but not absolute #’s.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:39 pmPresident-elect Trump said he would build a wall, deport alien criminals, vet Muslim immigrants, repeal executive orders, repeal Obamacare, dismiss the Iran deal, clear the swamp and prosecute Hillary.
That’s how he won.
Does he have the courage and ability to do so? Stay tuned.
Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:40 pmGabriel, do you think that might be literally true? That their intersectionalist indoctrination has rewired their brains so that they’re incapable of seeing the world from any perspective but that of identity politics?
Milhouse (40ca7b) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:43 pm@MD in Philly: You have to scroll all the way to the bottom. Stripped of all the anti-Trump verbiage, you get:
Not only was Latino voter turnout just 1 point above where it was in 2012, but it went 29 percent for Trump, according to exit polls.
In fact, 33 percent of Latino men voted for Trump, as well as 26 percent of Latino women.
Those numbers were actually higher than 2012 GOP nominee Mitt Romney’s in 2012…
A deeper dig into those numbers showed a devastating lack of black voter enthusiasm for Clinton: Whereas President Obama earned 93 percent of the black vote, Clinton only saw 88 percent; In fact, Trump ended up with 8 percent African American voter support, a full percentage point more than even Romney in 2012.
Adding more to it: 13 percent of black men voted for Trump.
Gabriel Hanna (c791b9) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:43 pmChristianity gets spoiled when linked with political power.
Not that I am in favor of persecution,
but being rewarded for saying the right words on occasion
rather than exemplifying the truth with one’s life
makes the lowest common denominator pretty low
progressing at sword’s point was never an acceptable way,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:43 pmunless the sword’s point was at a martyr
did we have an election yesterday, maybe I missed it, has he proposed anything more radical then the sessions plan, so how about waiting for the panic to set in,
this multicity panic has some of the flavor of the antibrexit tantrum, but with a deeply american context,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:43 pmAs to fear: Professing fear means you’re one of the Right Sort of People. Alternatively, you might actually be believing progressive propaganda. Bad idea.
Richard Aubrey (472a6f) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:46 pm@Md In philly:Not that I am in favor of persecution,
but being rewarded for saying the right words on occasion
What society do you prefer to live in–one where Christians are rare but pure and society is dominated by non-Christians and non-Christian principles, or a society where most people live according to Christian principles even if they don’t really believe in it very much?
Now the people who act Christian but aren’t may not go to heaven, but that’s not the issue. The issue is, what kind of society will you work for? Can’t answer it for you.
When it comes to free trade, for example, I prefer a society that works according to it rather than one where it is only espoused by a few passionate and well-informed enthusiasts that no one listens to, because I can’t get any of the benefits of free trade unless society at large is following it.
Gabriel Hanna (c791b9) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:48 pm@Millhouse:Gabriel, do you think that might be literally true? That their intersectionalist indoctrination has rewired their brains so that they’re incapable of seeing the world from any perspective but that of identity politics?
It’s more of a willful ignorance thing.
Gabriel Hanna (c791b9) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:50 pmtrue, but we have a paradox, the moral majority, got organized in part, when the secular authorities decided to encroach on their turf, this forced churchmen into the political realm, on values issues for the first time since the second great awakening, now power does corrupt, inevitably and the temptation to theocracy as warned in roman 13, is powerful, but what is the solution,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:50 pmThanks, Gabriel,
but that still doesn’t answer my questions,
for example, for the black and latino vote, what were the actual numbers?
Did more votes from Black people go to Trump than Romney in absolute numbers,
or were there fewer Black votes total, and of the fewer votes, more went to Trump?
this kind of analysis helps to clarify whether the claim that “all the undocumented white males came out of the closet to vote” explains it or not.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:51 pmthey just make this carp up whole sale,
https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/796538942195716097
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:53 pm“ugly bigoted sentiments of the worst of Trump’s supporters” Fact of the matter is that one specific bigotry, hatred of whites, is the most prevalent and accepted in USA society today. This anti-white bigotry has been mainstreamed in the schools, popular culture, and the executive branch of govt. ‘Old white men’ are denounced as the focus of evil today and throughout history. Criticism of non-white races leads to loss of livelihood for whites, but criticism of whites is cheered wherever it appears. You’ll all call me a bigot for posting this. QED
gp (0c542c) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:53 pmin a nutshell, I think,
people like to be nice,
but we often don’t like to be good
niceness erodes and stands for nothing
goodness costs
from Lewis and Aslan, etc.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:54 pm“Live your life right” is a thoroughly vague phrase, too vague to be useful to define anything. In order to answer your question, we’d need to know
For what it’s worth, the precise way I parse “conservatism” and “populism”, they aren’t inconsistent; it’s just that most decisions/policies with both properties simultaneously seem bad to me. That’s not quite relevant to your question, though, since Patterico uses the word subtly differently. I just don’t understand how you could expect a useful answer to such an ill-defined question.
CayleyGraph (353727) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:54 pmso they’ve moved on from denial:
https://twitter.com/bob_owens/status/796544162564861952
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 7:56 pmI never said that. Violent criminals are worse. But aside from violent criminals, yeah.
Name a negative character trait at random and Trump probably has it.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:01 pmred queen, illustrated for those with understanding, that she despised law enforcement, servicemen, people of faith, gun owners, did I leave anyone out,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:02 pmAnd may God have mercy on your soul too, CayleyGraph. 😉
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:02 pmGabriel,
I agree with just about everything you say in your comments. Remember I voted for McCain and Romney. And Dole.
Remember I used to be pilloried by some on the Internet and at this blog for being too pragmatic.
Now, I just want to teach people about the principles I think are important. The economic ones, especially free trade, seem like the most fertile ground in this group, since most people here already agree with many of the other principles.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:03 pmI thought his methods were a little crude, and sometimes scorched some unnecessary earth, however it seems to have worked, in the way that the great media consultant cabal, hasn’t been able to do in a dozen years,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:04 pmand that was the larger gripe,
we’ll see, as pointed out in the other thread, reciprocity is important in trade issues, it’s arguable that the laffer curve seemed like a panacea, as compared to real budget discipline, then stockman came in and blurred the difference,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:07 pmI thought we had dismissed the exit polls,
http://www.ibtimes.com/who-voted-trump-2016-exit-polls-compared-2012-voter-turnout-2442440
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:09 pma similar source,
http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/09/trump-did-better-than-romney-among-hispanics-and-blacks/
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:12 pmThanks, narciso, but again, that is %, maybe I’ll have to get several charts and figure it out myself,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:16 pmtomorrow
I went for a walk this evening, and overheard several conversations on the street, all people who were stunned and upset and couldn’t process what had happened. Over the course of the day I’ve also overheard fragments of several conversations by people walking past my window, including one father trying to explain the electoral college to his child, but the highlight was a woman who was saying “the children are traumatised!”
Milhouse (40ca7b) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:18 pmafter that barrage of ads run at all hours of the day and night, I wouldn’t be surprised. it was like psychic waterboarding on impressionable minds,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:22 pm@49.I went for a walk this evening, and overheard several conversations on the street, all people who were stunned and upset and couldn’t process what had happened. Over the course of the day I’ve also overheard fragments of several conversations by people walking past my window, including one father trying to explain the electoral college to his child, but the highlight was a woman who was saying “the children are traumatised!”
Everybody up! Put your lifebelts, on!
“This ship can’t sink. She’s unsinkable!!” – Captain Smith, RMS Titanic, [Laurence Naismith] ‘A Night To Remember’ 1958
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:22 pmI’m trying Very hard to be hopeful but the “now kneel before the president-elect” comments I’ve seen from various websites make it very hard to be. We must hold to our principles and hold the new president to the actual constitutional laws that govern the executive branch. I’m a little leery he will be constrained, or that the establishment (who lets face it- won and will not have learned any lessons) will feel any desire to do so either. I’m trying to keep up hope, but it’s tough when you look at actions and not just hang on words.
Moviemommy (06e612) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:25 pmYes, you did narciso. White men, anti abortionists, Israeli’s and Jews, straight people and most of all Businessmen!
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:27 pmMy daughter was asking me half seriously if Trump would get us into a nuclear war. I told her that you don’t get to be 70 years old if you’re suicidal; Trump is impulsive only with his mouth; Melania will keep him from pinching Putin’s wife’s butt; and, besides, the Illuminati would not have made him President if they thought he was dangerous.
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:28 pmwell at least two were in the same venn diagram, this is the quality of troll we’re getting, with obama we were told we had to ignore what he had been raised to believe, what he had proselytized and what he had actually done in his term of pffice,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:30 pmThe election was yesterday and he won’t even be sworn in until January but you’re already “trying to keep up hope”??? What are you a Jessie Jackson ad? Keep hope alive Moviemommy. Go have a glass of wine, relax and at least let the guy change out of his election night suit before you start wringing your hands.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:31 pmnuclear confrontations have risen out of weakness, more often then not, the cuban missile crisis, and yom kippur, arising from a weakened nixon, impeachment was one of the cunning plans, she may come across able archer, but that’s for another lesson.
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:33 pmWell, Hoagie, I agree with her to a large extent
As I’ve said before,
I thought one thing we had learned was that you can’t trust what anyone says,
you see what they do
trump has yet to give me one reason to trust him to do what he has said (on some occasions)
I had ample trust that Clinton would do the wrong things
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:36 pmlets see what he actually does, red queen’s truce squawk, really got on my nerves, particularly when it was echoed with the suggestion she was sincere,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:38 pmthe first world problems, they concern themselves with,
https://twitter.com/Fabian__LH/status/796527639645290496
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:42 pmremember the answer stalinists who organized the anti iraq war demonstrations, then they found a suitable patsy with cindy sheehan,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:50 pmah so the polls were actually slightly higher than 8 points for black men,
https://medium.com/the-patriarch-tree/never-bet-against-the-patriarchy-kids-e37084472281#.ku6bxgdir
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 8:56 pmLooks like I misspoke… https://patterico.com/2016/11/08/election-night-open-thread-2/#comment-1948535
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:00 pmAnd you later redeemed yourself by saying the President-elect only a “giant piece of sh*t” who reads from a TelePrompTer.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:05 pm@ nk, #17:
Conservatism consists of much more than just “Live your life right.” What would that make progressivism — “Live your life wrong,” maybe?
Get a copy of Russell Kirk’s book “The Conservative Mind” for a thorough explication of Western conservatism through the centuries. Or, if you don’t have the time to read it (because it is massive), google “Russell Kirk conservative principles” and read the first couple results.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:07 pmbut beleagered bakery and pizza owners that’s just one bridge too far,
http://libertyunyielding.com/2016/11/09/gofundme-pages-advocating-assassination-donald-trump/
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:07 pmThe true danger will come when the people who truly supported him find out that his promises and goals turn out to be things he can not or will not do, or end up weakening America. Will they give up or rise up?
Kishnevi (3bfc26) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:11 pmmind you, his boss has a popularity of about 10%
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/11/09/france-plans-getting-tough-president-elect-trump-410268
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:12 pmOh, I don’t. I always hope I’m wrong in situations like this. In 2008 I had great hope, but little expectation, that Obama would transform us into a more perfect union. While Rush and some others made headlines with their wishes for failure, I withheld judgment and hoped for the best. I thought they were wrong then and that you are wrong now. Let us not forget one very important American value that you don’t hear much about any more, which is that we give people the chance to prove themselves – it is all about fairness. Let’s give Trump a chance. Just to show my own good faith, I’ll stop calling him Shorty, at least until he re-earns the moniker.
With expectations as low as mine, I’ll be the happiest man in these comments if Trump comes anywhere near being the change agent so many have promised.
In some ways, I’m already very happy: the wicked witch is dead. Hi Ho! Can I emphasize this enough?
In addition, he got a lot of Democrats, independents and non-voters to stand up for a Republican candidate and against a Democratic one. Moreover, he got these voters and many Republicans, as well, to vote against the party apparatus, both Democratic and Republican. If Trump has renewed the Republican Party’s bond with “Reagan Democrats” and ignited resurgent interest in anti-statist politics, we’ll all be better off for it.
Finally, I’d like to point out that with his strong showing in Blue states, Trump has clearly demonstrated that running as Democrat-lite is not the path to a Republican victory in the Electoral College. Quite that opposite, in fact. With this stunning revelation, Trump has hammered a stake through the heart of the already-lifeless GOPe corpse. Bravo, Mr. Trump!
Even if Trump does not live up to the extravagant expectations of so many – it is hard to imagine he will come close – he has already accomplished much. I understand that where he goes from here is anyone’s guess, but I will dutifully withhold judgment and give him the chance to prove himself. You should too. All Americans should.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:14 pmwell he was a transitional candidate, like nixon was getting the blue collar white ethnics, (future reagan democrats) and the future neocons, along with southern evangelicals, it struck me as odd how far the neocons committed category error in support of red queen this cycle,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:21 pmEven during the Reagan presidency, there was plenty of stupid in the admixture (e.g., the Harley Davidson tariff, chickening out on tax reform, his Obama-like “strategic opening to Iran,” need I go on?).
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:28 pmso much was said of things he might have said, what he meant, millions of electrons spent, but the details of his strategy was purposely made unclear,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:29 pmyes, there was some of that, he was dealing with boll weevils, as part of the operating majority, I would say the first round of tax reform was more salubrious then 86, it was the cia’s men, including graham fuller, who was always an easy mark, (take him taking in the tsarnaev’s) that underlay this strategy,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:32 pmThank you, Demosthenes. But I think Russell Kirk conservatives can still be populists. The Founders for example.
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:32 pmwell the founders were classical liberal, who adhered to a spectrum of believe, from extremely devout to deists,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:34 pmTrump is one of the worst humans ever. But not THE worst. Violent criminals are worse.
And he IS a giant piece of shit who has been trying to hide it by reading from a TelePromTer.
Are you seriously going to try to put some kind of moral pressure on me to say Trump is a good guy?
This is beyond “Hillary is worse” arguments. If you can’t admit he’s an awful human, fine. You’re wrong but whatever. But if you’re really going to try to beat me up because I note the glaringly obvious, thenI wonder what the hell you think you’re trying to accomplish.
Answer me five questions, yes or no.
Is Donald Trump narcissistic?
Dishonest?
Cruel?
Devious?
Vindictive?
If you can’t answer these questions yes, you’re blind.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:36 pmYou can say “I still think he’ll be a good President” or whatever. But don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:36 pmwho adhered to a spectrum of believe, from extremely devout to deists,
That’s enough, as long as it’s a transcendent moral code?
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:37 pmre russell kirk, it’s arguable the take canada caucus, which fumbled the war of 1812’s earlier exercises, as well the manifest destiny that underlay the mexican war, in part,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:40 pmThe only deist in the bunch, as far as I know, was Paine, and he was an outsider, mostly for that very reason. When he got himself imprisoned in France for voting not to behead the former king and queen (who had done nothing wrong, and who were living peaceful lives as ordinary citizens) the Washington administration refused to lift a finger to help him.
Milhouse (40ca7b) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:41 pmI think the I should be looking at populism better for the contrast. Like Jack Cade’s Rebellion, where erstwhile conservatives got tired of waiting for change and started out to “kill all the lawyers”. ;
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:41 pmI’m getting that from commenters here too. “It’s not enough that you congratulate him and hope he will do good things. Also we require that you pretend he is a man of good character!”
I will not say it
Patterico (115b1f) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:41 pmBecause Trump is a huge shit
And that’s a fact, Jack
Am I actually seeing this? Benedict Arnold, having seen his hopes for enemy victory dashed, now wants to pretend that everything is fine and we’ll go back to how it was before he revealed his true colors. You stood with HER. For the rest of my blog reading days I will remember that. And I will remind anyone who forgets it. You could have kept you honor and remained silent, refusing to support a candidate that you felt was too flawed. Instead you took up arms with the enemy. There is no coming back from this and I hope to god that you have been privately ostracised in the same manner that right-leaning readers have so publicly ostracised you. This blog deserves to be remembered in the same light as LGF. If ever.
Mr Black (7c41e5) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:42 pmwell how would you characterize jefferson then, he certainly believed in god, look at the inscription on his monument, yet was skeptical of some of the claims of christianity,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:42 pmOne of the major strains of thought running through conservative writings is a respect for class and aristocracy — both in the older, more structured “British” sense and in the newer, more class-mobile “American” sense. It’s part of the conservative respect for tradition and social variety — and a recognition both of the differences of persons, and of the good effects that can come from having a group of citizens whose primary concern is the maintenance of the social fabric. Populism, by its very definition, urges that we give heed to the voice of the mob, which may or may not be interested in preserving the older ways of doing things. To whatever extent that populism wants to sweep aside the old in favor of the new, it is antithetical to conservatism, and just as dangerous to it as the social-programming instincts of progressivism.
Now, not all conservatives have seen the need for an aristocracy. Not all conservatives agree on all issues, obviously. (Another major strain running through conservative thought is the belief in a transcendent world that is the source of morality, yet there are a sizable minority of atheist and non-religious conservatives.) So I don’t deny that populists can be conservatives. But conservatism, by its nature, is generally not populist.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:44 pmwell the contradiction between the declaration, that asserted a right to dissolve oppressive institution, and the constitution, that strove to facilitate institutional functioning the tea party was an act of rebellion, a direct action against property in part, yet we celebrate it,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:46 pmExactly. Jefferson was neither a trinitarian Christian nor a deist. Those aren’t the only two options, you know.
Milhouse (40ca7b) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:47 pmthat’s why I said a spectrum, hard to pigeonhole even then, with modern terms, in some senses Trump in hamiltonian, he does see the need for a larger role in govt, but there is also a jeffersonian streak,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:50 pmre liberty interests, so where is the balancing test,
I’ll have to think about it. Because what’s being called populism in Trump’s supporters strikes as more like conservative reaction to social radicals passed off as elites. Like Nixon’s Silent Majority vs. the flower children?
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:52 pmnow on the democratic side, there is a similar conflict between jacobinism, like red queen or doc brown, and
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:52 pman institutional prorogative,
yes, that’s certainly a part of it, donald warren called them middle american radicals, back in the 70s,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:53 pmPatterico never stood with Hillary. Not once. You, Mr. Black, are a bald-faced liar.
Chuck Bartowski (211c17) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:54 pm@ narciso, #86:
If you read the Declaration, you’ll note that its authors did not claim a right to dissolve oppressive institutions. They were claiming a right to separate from those institutions, as they no longer felt those institutions worked as they should. Further, the bulk of the text is given to spelling out the reasons why they’re separating, and what they did before they decided they had no alternative.
Conservatives can change. But that change usually comes slowly, with great reflection, and only after attempts to preserve the best of the status quo have failed.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:55 pmsome illconsidered remarks by buckley, back in the 50s, was used as ammunition, against national review and the new right by michael lind, as a battering ram in the 90s,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:55 pmYou have captured the essence of our president-elect.
Right now I’m less concerned by what stupid is than by what stupid does.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:57 pm@ nk, #89:
There’s certainly some of that. I said that I don’t believe conservatism is inherently populist, but conservatives and populists may agree on some things — like conservatives and libertarians do.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:58 pm‘when in the course of human events, it becomes necessary’ well that’s the tricky wicket, the tories our cousins across the pond, were organized to support the aristocracy, and the whigs were the base of the bourgeosie, disraeli and thatcher, made the former more middle class friendly,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 9:58 pmYou think early America didn’t have an aristocracy? What were Washington, Jefferson, and Madison, then? Landed gentlemen who devoted their time to politics and statecraft — in other words, aristocrats.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:02 pmwere they granted title by the king, by that standards the federalist were more tory, and the democrats more whig,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:04 pmMr. Black is our old friend Mr. Pink.
Get off my blog, Mr. Pink. As Chuck says, you LIE!
Patterico (6ff3a1) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:05 pmThe born Trumpers fit a certain mold. Mr. Pink always fit that mold to a T.
Patterico (6ff3a1) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:06 pmthis is the same publication, one of whose hot takes is trump is the antichrist, I think he would be much more popular around the world if this were so,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:06 pmAs I already mentioned above, the American aristocracy is of a different kind. We don’t need titles or monarchs to have one. And we allude to it all the time. I’m no fan of the Kennedys, but what are they if not perhaps the foremost example of the American version of nobility, the lords and ladies of Martha’s Vineyard?
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:08 pmThat is a diary and not a piece by a front page contributor. I think it populates their trending stories because the title does great on the search engines. Seems a lot of people search that phrase.
Patterico (6ff3a1) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:08 pm76… Sorry, Patterico, IMO one could safely say at least 3 out of 5 of those could be said about nearly every politician, even Ted Cruz.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:08 pmaaron burr shot hamilton, jackson dispatched more than a few through duels, judge taney, wrought his evil through a pen, than a sword or pistol, other examples that come to mind?
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:09 pmMr. Pink can’t stay away. I live in the delicate snowflake’s head rent free.
Patterico (6ff3a1) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:10 pmColonel, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the issue of Donald Trump’s character.
Patterico (6ff3a1) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:11 pmwell seeing as one fellow almost drove nuns into bankruptcy to pursue his policy aims, maybe ad demonium should have less of a place,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:12 pmI will not say it
Because Trump is a huge Shit
And that’s a fact, Jack
In fact, it’s an opinion.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:13 pmOkay we’ll agree to disagree…
“DOCTOR, IS IT NORMAL TO KEEP GRINNING LIKE THIS? Newsweek recalls 125,000 copies of its souvenir Madam President issue.”
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/248867/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:13 pmI will not say it
Because Trump is a huge $hit
And that’s a fact, Jack
In fact, it’s an opinion.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:13 pm@ Patterico, #108:
What is there to disagree about? You’re right. Simply saying the phrase “agree to disagree” makes it sound like the opinions have equal merit. They do not.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:14 pmhow about time magazine, they have had omelet on their face for a month,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:15 pmMy opinion is that a water molecule is composed of two atoms hydrogen, one atom oxygen. That is my opinion, and I’m sticking to it.
It is also, of course, a fact. One label does not exclude the other.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:16 pmTurnout among eligible voters may have been the lowest it has been since 2000. I am particularly interested in the under vote, which isn’t yet available. In the last three presidential elections .6% of those who vote did not vote in the contest for President. In 2000, that number was 1.1%. Anyone want to bet it might be a lot higher in 2016? A great many people did not want to vote for either candidate.
Trump is in for a rough ride. How much rougher he makes it is up to him. I won’t cut him any slack because that is never how one deals with someone whose narcissism is so extreme.
NC Mountain Girl (1d5f51) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:16 pmPatterico??? How does TRUMPS a$$ taste buddy???
GUS (30b6bd) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:17 pmnow beck was the one who suggested bannon would hire assasins on the dark net, talking about stocking up on crazy, which is dissapointing because the part of his life he now repudiated in rolling stone, he provided some good information,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:17 pmI was asked today, by a Hillary voter, how Trump won. I gave her the same answer I gave six months ago as to why he won the primary: He didn’t just go out and tell people things. He first let people talk to him. Then he told them what they had told him.
Unlike Hillary who was reading from the Progressive gospel the few times she was not hiding. And unlike the RNC which just posted the 2012 platform.
nk (dbc370) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:19 pmundervote, hanging chads, I’m having flashbacks, you rate what people effectively do, I mentioned that local race that drew more attention than even the governor’s race this year,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:20 pm113… Yes, savor the moment, narciso. And the we’ll have to gird against the constant drone.
114… Demosthenes, if you don’t think nearly every politician just by the nature of the job is narcissistic, must at times be devious, dishonest and vindictive as well, you are one naive turnip.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:21 pmgoing back to the old republic, for every cicero, there was a catilline or a crassus, for pericles an alcibidiades or a cleon,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:24 pmThat is certainly my opinion. I am just tired of that discussion. It pointless for me to try to convince someone of this if they don’t already agree by this point in time.
Patterico (6ff3a1) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:24 pmwell more precisely he addressed what they were concerned about, what a revolutionary notion,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:26 pmthat is how he drew in, rural voters, urban ones, suburban women, and everything in between, recall shakespeare, now regarded as high art, was the popular entertainment of the time, same with the greek and roman dramas,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:28 pmOver the years, I got used to guys spiking the ball, doing little dances in the end zone, whatever. It’s what guys do. With all the argy-bargy on the Right these last few months, I’m surprised that on this day there isn’t more of it. Why shouldn’t they have their day?
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:28 pm@ the colonel, #120:
First off, no. Unlike you (I presume), I happen to know quite a few politicians. Narcissistic doesn’t describe literally any of my acquaintances. And they are no more devious or dishonest or vindictive than any random person on the street…certainly not to the point where I would stick any of them with those labels. (E.g.: Telling one lie doesn’t make you dishonest. Telling lies habitually does.)
Second, even granting for the sake of argument that your claim were true, that does not serve to dispute Patterico’s point, which is that Donald Trump’s character is atrocious. Even if every politician were like him, that doesn’t diminish his wretchedness in that regard. Seriously, what do you plan for an encore? Trying to defend Lot’s neighbors by saying that everyone else in Sodom is bad too? Yup, they were, Doesn’t mean the neighbors weren’t also terrible. But feel free to take up that argument with God at your leisure. I’ll bring the popcorn…and the salt.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:30 pmso are we on principles, or subjective notions, now the current occupant got there by first eliminating all opposition in his first race, having divorce records leaked in the second great contest, and an unremitting sliming of his own true adversary in the last match,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:36 pmall hail ‘deutscher of the 13th rule,’ if you’re going to be on caricature duty,
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:37 pmNone of us really know the man, so this is all subjective hot wind. You’ve formed impressions in your own mind. I have one of you, Demosthenes… one ginormous gasbag.
We’ll know whether the guy is up to the task soon enough. ’nuff said.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:38 pmNice… http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/citizens/bill_whittle_speaks_as_us.php
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:42 pmwait a week before the spanish inquisition,
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2016/11/09/the-promise-machine/
narciso (d1f714) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:48 pmI stand with guys like Bill Whittle.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:51 pmI worked for years as a government consultant. I think Trump’s sleaziness will help him in the “logrolling” process. He’ll be among friends.
My professional experience is that Colonel knows exactly what he is talking about.
ThOR (c9324e) — 11/9/2016 @ 10:54 pmWe know enough based on what he has said and done. He has screwed customers and contractors many times over. We’ve definitely formed impressions- based on that. And they are DAMN accurate.
You can deny it, but then you’d be clearly wrong.
Patrick Henry, the 2nd (2ab6f6) — 11/10/2016 @ 4:01 am@ the colonel, #129:
Your impression of me is no concern of mine. Mostly because — and I’m sure you don’t care — but mostly because, to me, you are a slightly more articulate version of happyfeet.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 11/10/2016 @ 4:12 amI assume you’d say the same about Obama.
Please, let’s stop talking about it.
Patterico (6ff3a1) — 11/10/2016 @ 6:17 amI agree with your sentiments. Those “demonstrating” in the streets need to be knocked about a bit, and then put in time out until they grow up.
This whole idea that I can disrupt traffic, other people’s lives because I didn’t get my way or disagree with the outcome of a democratic election is pure nonsense and needs to be nipped in the bud.
You think these people just got together and willy nilly showed up? It’s the D’s and Soros and the lot of BLM, Occupy Wallstreet, etc.
They need to be trounced, denounced, and “re-educated.” Until that happens and is acknowledged by the other side, I take no prisoners.
Steve_in_SoCal (58e1f9) — 11/10/2016 @ 7:44 amAs I tell my kids, react to actions, not words. And I agree with #137. We need to remind these Hillary supporters, over and over, at their Gasp! Horror! when Trump said he might not accept the election results if he felt cheating was involved. Okay, we had an election. They need to accept the results. Rioters get roughed up and go to jail. Period. Full stop. That used to be a bipartisan position, and the fact that it no longer is has become a big reason the democrats lost.
My viewpoint is pretty simple – ignore Donald Trump, and focus less on why he won, and more on why Hillary LOST. She lost because she is a terrible candidate promoting terrible policies.
There is this idea of the Overton window, that certain positions cannot be debated. For example, you cannot debate the merits of concentration camps in America. That is outside the Overton window, and rightly so. The progressives, for years, have sought to win debates by shifting the Overton window. For example, we cannot have a coherent discussion of sanctuary cities, or controlling the southern border. The opposite position has been declared “racist”, and gets shouted down. The problem is, it is not the progressive media that decides what positions are allowed to be debated, but the American people. And they have decided, collectively, that enough is enough. We WILL have this debate, like it or not.
Tenn (131b65) — 11/10/2016 @ 10:49 amEven though I despise Trump, I am have no qualms admitting that I am very pleased with the outcome. It set back the left in a major way. Nonetheless, we must face the reality that no president-elect (with the possible exception of Barack Obama) has a deeper moral deficit. I care more about results than intentions, so let me give you two analogies of how this might play out:
1) During the Carter and Reagan administrations, the CIA funneled millions to the the most radical elements of the Mujahideen. This mortally wounded the Soviet Union, but enabled the rise of Al Qaeda. In other words, this major set-back for leftism could usher in something worse. Here is the reality we are up against now: Trump has surrounded himself with some good people, but I fear he might get too many tips from some of the not-so-good people in his inner circle, like the thoroughly execrable Steven Bannon.
2) In the final climactic scene from “Lord of the Rings” (spoiler alert!), Frodo succumbs to the power of the ring and at the very last minute, aborts his mission to throw this ring into the Mordor volcano. Sam (a loyal friend who accompanied Frodo on this mission) is helpless to stop him because Frodo used the right to make himself invisible, and Sam is afraid that in the ensuing struggle to remove the ring from Frodo’s finger, he might accidently push Frodo into the volcano. The mission succeeds only because Gollum (who thoroughly craves the ring and does not care what happens to Frodo) observes Frodo’s footprints and assaults him to get the ring. During the struggle that follows, Gollum gets the ring by biting off Frodo’s finger. Once Gollum gets the ring, Sam pushes Gollum (ring and all) into the volcano and the mission is completed. My daughter understood the significance immediately when she said, “We need to thank Gollum, even though his was evil”. Here is how this could play out with Trump: He has a pathologically big ego. If it is guided and manipulated in the right way, it might lead to a not-so-bad legacy.
Tony (ff2fe4) — 11/10/2016 @ 12:13 pm