Patterico's Pontifications

10/13/2016

Yemen

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 7:58 am



We are basically at war now. Again.

My default position is that we should not be at war. It’s getting harder and harder to convince me otherwise.

74 Responses to “Yemen”

  1. if it’s yemen vs. the saudi royal peverts I’m rooting for yemen

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  2. oops saudi royal *perverts* i mean

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  3. well we are in a proxy war with the sepah, through the houthi,

    narciso (d1f714)

  4. No Happy, it’s not.

    Patrick, from what I’m understanding it was an attack on radar installations that the Houthi rebels had taken over and had made the error of targeting our Naval ships with it. Apparently, in their fight with the government, the rebels have been able to take over military equipment and bases, using it to threaten the Red Sea. Adding my thoughts, this might have been with the Yemeni government’s blessing.

    Bill H (971e5f)

  5. possibly it could be like lebanon in the 80s, govt forces were nominally on our side, maronite christians, but the amal militia, created by chamran, after sadr’s passing, was an entirely iranian creation,

    narciso (d1f714)

  6. Unfortunately , we probably warned the rebels in advance we were about to send a few Tomahawks their way, and give them a chance to clear their forces out.

    Bill H (971e5f)

  7. i just wanted to say saudi royal perverts

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  8. you know if we had only been nicer to the sepah, this wouldn’t be happening,

    narciso (d1f714)

  9. i just wanted to say saudi royal perverts

    happyfeet (a037ad) — 10/13/2016 @ 8:35 am

    With your commenting style, you could simply say just that and no one here would bat an eyelash.

    Bill H (971e5f)

  10. yeah well not our choice. We’ve been at war for 1400 years. It’s the Muslims who divide the world into Dar al Islam, the house of Islam, and Dar al Harb, the house of war. You Pat are kuffar harbi. An unbeliever at war with Islam as evidenced by the fact you have not ostentatiously submitted.

    Me, I prefer to fight to the death which might have taken hours and I had a reasonable chance of prevailing in my twenties will now only take minutes in my fifties.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  11. The New York Times says we should not be allied with the Saudis.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/opinion/americas-moral-duty-in-yemen.html

    Sammy Finkelman (e3cf91)

  12. true, but occasionally one has the pact of hudaibiyah, or things of that nature,

    narciso (d1f714)

  13. A Republican congress gave a Democrat commander-in-chief a declaration of war … and the news failed to cover the story?

    Unpossible!

    Either the congress has changed hands, or the presidency has, or the forces are engaged in some sort of humanitarian relief effort — not “war-war”.

    Otherwise, what does the constitution actually mean?

    Pouncer (806511)

  14. occasionally. Hudaybiyyah. Thanks for the laugh.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  15. On a pounds of munitions expended per day basis we’re still more at war in Mosul, Iraq than Yemen. The Russians are a bit tweaked at us for herding ISIS towards Raqqa for its date with destiny but Russian ROE (if it moves, kill it) are really more effective as headchopper control measures.

    Rick Ballard (b9de6e)

  16. like the aramco concession, by ibn saud, apparently the ikwan tribes were not consulted,

    narciso (d1f714)

  17. well it’s mostly a flesh wound now, but it’s early yet, now we supply the saudi army, so that makes it a proxy fight on the other side,

    narciso (d1f714)

  18. There was no declaration of war, Pouncer. It was a purely defensive move on our part. The Yemeni rebels had been firing missiles at our Navy for the past few days. Now that they’ve gotten their attack on the Great Satan out of their system and found that it really isn’t a good idea, the warning should be sent: keep to yourselves, or we will light you up.

    Bill H (971e5f)

  19. Even the state run NPR says we’re at war.

    AZ Bob (d6a3a9)

  20. Does Obama still love the Arab Spring? Or the Junior Varsity?

    AZ Bob (d6a3a9)

  21. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXw8bKzxocg

    Yemeni forces destroy UAE vessel with rockets

    Still trying to figure out what this means. It’s hard to sink a ship no matter how many fires you start above the water line.

    http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2016/10/so-you-want-to-play-varsity-football.html

    Three U.S. warships are operating off the coast Yemen following a guided missile attack against a UAE operated ship by Houthi rebels, two U.S. defense officials confirmed to USNI News on Tuesday.

    The ships – guided-missile destroyers USS Nitze (DDG-94), USS Mason (DDG-87) and the afloat forward staging base USS Ponce (AFSB(I)-15) – are on station off Yemen near the Bab Al Mandeb strait that links the Red Sea to the Gulf of Aden…

    Afloat forward staging base is just a nice way of saying SEALs. Twenty years ago I would have told you game over. Now I have no way of knowing how in what humiliating fashion Tiger Beat intends to lose.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  22. http://www.businessinsider.com/houthis-fire-missiles-on-us-navy-destroyers-near-yemen-2016-10

    ‘This is obviously a huge deal’: US Navy destroyers just had to fend off missiles fired from Yemen

    Yeauhh!

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  23. they should float far away to where the missiles can’t get on them

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  24. Ironic but predictable: because Obama forced through the crappy nuclear deal with Iran, we now have to help the Saudis clean house in Yemen in order to soothe over their hurt feelings. So American lives are now directly at risk because of Barack Obama and John Kerry’s foolishness.

    JVW (6e49ce)

  25. Happyfeet, Red Sea. Learn geography

    SPQR (a3a747)

  26. Putin, and even more likely China, want to see the capabilities of the U.S. vessels there, is my guess. And they bribed the Hooties to provoke a counter-attack.

    “Is this a probe, Stansky?”

    Cross of Iron, 1977

    nk (dbc370)

  27. So you finally noticed? This is all happening in the southern end of the Red Sea where the passage is about 20 nautical miles wide. Yemen Houthis control the northern shore. The Yemen thing got hot in the middle of September when two tankers were seized just above the bottle neck. Next a weird looking ex-Navy ship, the HSV Swift, was attacked with a very powerful missile. The ship was said to be bringing food and medical supplies to the Saudi-supported faction in the Yemen civil war. Then the USS Mason was attacked with two cruise missiles which were caused to crash into the sea. Next, another cruise missile was shot at the Mason which was accompanying the USS Ponce, and this missile was also defeated. The USS Ponce is a support ship of about 9,000 tons with a small crew, and a bunch of SEALs, and it would not fare well against a cruise missile attack without the Mason and its antiaircraft weapons. It is capable of amphibious operations with a large helicopter deck. In both cruise missile attacks, radar sites on the rebel-controlled shore were used to target the U. S. ships, but the ships did not attack the radar sites, which would have been the obvious way to defeat the missiles. This was no doubt due to Rules of Engagement. After some time, the desk jockeys in D. C. finally allowed the Mason to take out the radar sites, which is the simple way to protect shipping in Staits.

    It is possible that the SEALS are there in an anti-piracy role, related to the seizure of the ships. For example, the Yemen rebels may be attempting to close the Red Sea to shipping of selected nationalities. Say those countries that support Iran’s opponents, Saudi Arabia and the like. The weapons they are using are said to be 1990’s models, but they are certainly capable of sinking a ship. Particularly a freighter or tanker which can neither defend itself, nor repair battle damage as Naval vessels can (the latest Littoral combat ships excepted.)

    This is a proxy battle between Iran and Saudi Arabia, but larger issues are at stake. It is a sign of the times that a two-bit regime supported by Iran thinks it can close the Red Sea. This is a consequence of our feckless foreign policy. This is the sort of thing weakness and idiocy spawn. We’ll get a lot more of it in the future as we cower before an increasingly belligerent world.

    BobStewartatHome (c16b8a)

  28. perhaps, it’s hard to tell all the players without a program, the russians probably spetznaz, train the sepah who in turn recruit the zaydis into the houthis,

    narciso (d1f714)

  29. Well Egypt decided to close the Red Sea in 1967…

    Kishnevi (86e9bc)

  30. Just about any of the world’s yahoos at large think our military’s fair game now apparently.

    Colonel Haiku (f00165)

  31. googling red sea

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  32. here’s a pic of the red sea during a dust storm

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  33. yahoos at large think our military’s fair game now apparently

    This is explained in van Creveld’s Pussycats: Why the Rest Keep Beating the West. It’s taken sixty years to get here, and now we need to learn how to live with the new normal. If wishes were horses our host would have many ponies, as well as peace on earth.

    PS: Typical of our elite-driven world, the title of van Creveld’s little book is mashed by Amazon as “Why the Rest Keep Beating the Rest” in every reference except the paperback which I used above. Nothing to see here, move along.

    BobStewartatHome (c16b8a)

  34. My default position is that we should not be at war.

    It only takes one conqueror to have a nice war. You may choose not to resist, but don’t complain about the occupation. And don’t be surprised if a few of us take a contrary position.

    War is the norm for humans. Peace has to be earned.

    BobStewartatHome (c16b8a)

  35. they declared war on us, in aden harbour, if memory serves 16 years ago,

    narciso (d1f714)

  36. This matters. This is why Hillary must not become President. Under the current administration she is royalty and above the law. If she becomes Queen, she will use that power to crush her enemies, overturn what is left of the rule of law and rule by fiat.

    It WILL be the end of the Republic.

    NJRob (a07d2e)

  37. what could go wrong here,

    It all started with Obama’s line in the sand. He has shown nothing but weakness and vacillation. It should not surprise us that other world powers have discounted him utterly. We would be better off if he could maintain his fecklessness until he scuttles out of office in January. The worst possible outcome would be for him to suddenly decide to pretend to be a tough guy. If he plays the tough guy, he’ll find that he has more and more tough decisions to make, each more significant than the last, and he’ll hesitate each time, making his indecision more and more telling. This is looking like Korea in 1950.

    BobStewartatHome (c16b8a)

  38. rhetorical, bob, clearly attacking syria, which is an russian proxy, would be all sorts of pearshaped opportunities,

    narciso (d1f714)

  39. It WILL be the end of the Republic.

    NJRob

    If you’re right, the republic already ended some time ago. Hillary won’t be worse than Obama.

    I’m not going to let fear drive me to vote for a tyrant like Trump. Your concerns are serious and justified, but they should have been considered by the GOP primary voters. We should have voted for a conservative and someone who could win, and *most of us did*.

    Dustin (ba94b2)

  40. We are basically at war now. Again.

    What do you mean ‘again’? We’ve been ‘at war’ for nearly two decades.

    “Oil fields. Oil. That’s it, isn’t it? This whole damn thing was about oil! Wasn’t it? Wasn’t it?”- Joe Turner [Robert Redford] ‘Three Days Of The Condor’ 1975

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  41. it’s interesting the book refers to a complex heroin smuggling scheme, the film settled for miles ignotus’s (edward Luttwak,) modest proposals,

    narciso (d1f714)

  42. and it was called six days of the condor, in the first instance,

    narciso (d1f714)

  43. Red Skies Sea At Night

    Red Sea at night
    Red Sea at night
    Wo oh oh oh oh
    Red Sea at night
    Red Sea at night
    Wo oh oh oh oh
    Should have sent a message not just
    Camel dressage
    Running, hiding, scared
    They can’t find, find a place to go

    Red Sea at night
    Red Sea at night
    Wo oh
    Should have glassed the sand out
    Not ignoring
    Running, hiding, smoked
    But they’ll find, Obambi’s just a joke
    Red Sea at night
    Red Sea at night
    Wo oh
    Red Sea at night
    Red Sea at night
    Wo oh oh
    Iran’s feeling their oats
    And it looks like they’re aiming
    At our boats our folks our pride
    Or John Kerry
    Let’s get real they should be dead by morning
    Light ’em up leaving
    Red fires at night
    Red fires at night
    Wo oh oh

    Colonel Haiku (f00165)

  44. The Dems sacrificed US reputation when they undercut Bush, not to be rebuilt until we lose soldiers fighting and winning another war.

    MD in Philly (f9371b)

  45. It is indicative of the sorry state we are in that our reference for action is a movie by Robert Redford. At some point the difference between the virtual reality we are immersed in and the reality besetting the rest of the world will become apparent. Drugs and communication devices will be the first to go. Then the talking heads …..

    BobStewartatHome (c16b8a)

  46. BobStewartatHome, these days when a lot of people, especially leftists, refer to war they are picturing either Saving Private Ryan or Halo as their reference point. I find it both difficult and insulting to be lectured about war by a thirtysomething who thinks he knows something because he’s on level 19 on Call of Duty. Fortunately for them I’m too ill to punch them in their throat.

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  47. Greetings:

    We’re not at war with Yemen. We’re at what passes for war these Obama days. I’m sure all the JAGs, JAGettes, and JAGoffs, like their civilian pals over at the DoJ, are on board with this as a “proportionate” response. LIke those over 15 tears of “proportionate” responses that have done us much good.

    Islam is the millstone. It’s nothing more than the globalization of 7th Century A.D. predatory Arab tribal culture with a thin veneer of supremacist religion as its public face. If your plan doesn’t include constraining, undermining, or eradicating Islam, you don’t have a plan. WHat you have is a hope.

    11B40 (6abb5c)

  48. The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today announced nine new energy performance contracting pilot projects that bring together U.S. and Chinese companies to boost the energy efficiency of buildings in China and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.*

    your goddamn tax money at work

    america’s just a pitifully stupid country i don’t know what else you can say

    let’s do that pig all up in it

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  49. I blame Jimmy Carter for most of this.
    At a critical moment, namely when radical Islam claimed its first victim (Iran and the Shah), when resolute action could have possibly saved the day, he vacillated, equivocated and dithered.
    The seizing of hostages was clearly an act of war, and should have been treated as such.
    Of course, Nobama’s chimerical “deal” with Iran is merely another chapter in a long, sordid story.

    orcadrvr (3cc3b1)

  50. Just as an aside the Iranians have been backing the rebels who have shot the missiles. The rebels are trying to overthrow a democratically elected Yemeni government. The rebels have also attempted to shoot SCUDS at Saudi air bases and cities. Most observers call this a proxy war tween the Sauds and the radicals in Iran. For those of you who don’t remember what it was like, if the Red Sea is closed that would be really bad for an already weak economy. The same sort of closure to the Red Sea/Suez Canal happened after the 73 war when the approaches to the canal were mined. That combined with the OPEC oil crisis lead to fun times from 74 till the mid 80s.

    Charles (1a3f38)

  51. The RODE (Rules of Dis-Engagement) we’ve been on for decades has led to attacks on our soil.

    I wonder if the GOAT Ali would have a problem with any dang Yemeni Cong?

    Hey! I know! Let’s have the latest Nobel Laureate, Dylan, have Yusuf Islam sing one of his songs to the loving purveyors of the religion of peace. Instant reformation!

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  52. 51.I blame Jimmy Carter for most of this.

    I blame Eisenhower’s CIA for all of this.

    “Shah! Shah! Ayatolllah ‘ya so!” – Robin Williams, HBO TV, 1980

    DCSCA (797bc0)

  53. you really need to read andrew cooper’s shah bio, there was a backstory to the events in 53, the fedayeen islami, there was another revolt in 63, which was suppressed, it was old Mossadeqists like Bani Sadr, who had the ear of the foreign press, like lemonde’s rouleau and the posts jonathan randall it might have been difficult but still possible to head off the revolution by the spring of 78, of course, the embassy siege, provoked the utaybi coup attempt, related by
    trofimov, which led to khaled starting to appease the ikwan, then came afghanistan,

    narciso (d1f714)

  54. there will be a quiz at the end of the week,

    narciso (d1f714)

  55. @54,
    We could call a blame on the Foreign Office of the British. They overthrew a Nazi/Soviet sympathizer in Reza Shah to protect the only other oil fields available after the loss of British Pacific colonies to the Imperial Japanese. Heck, we could blame BP and the UK Foreign Office for making the House of Saudi in the 20s and 30s. Play with the history long enough you find it isn’t just the US that has been in the region and some of the tension has been slowly building since the days of Napoleonic campaigns.

    Charles (1a3f38)

  56. as long as none of our sailors cry this time i think we can chalk this up as a win

    happyfeet (28a91b)

  57. Islam is the millstone. It’s nothing more than the globalization of 7th Century A.D. predatory Arab tribal culture with a thin veneer of supremacist religion as its public face. If your plan doesn’t include constraining, undermining, or eradicating Islam, you don’t have a plan. WHat you have is a hope.
    11B40 (6abb5c) — 10/13/2016 @ 1:29 pm

    Thank you 11B40 (good ole infantry) I hope you don’t mind if I repeat this fantastic and succinct encapsulation of that nasty thing called Islam. Has anyone noticed that Islam is the only “religion” the left loves?

    Rev. Hoagie® (785e38)

  58. Charles,

    some of the tension has been slowly building since the days of Napoleonic campaigns.

    This region has been the beachhead for conquests in either direction since the Persian War in 480 BC. Curiously enough, our current Secretary of State would have loved Xerxes. The Persian goal was to turn the world into a garden, a virtual paradise, and they were wonderfully centralized. The only discrepancy with modern liberalism is that when Alexander seized the Persian treasury, he found a century of tribute in gold that he promptly used to buy more mercenaries. Liberals like Kerry would have left nothing but promissory notes, which, as we will soon discover, aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. Certainly no mercenary worth his salt would deign to work for such wages.

    The region was pacified following the Napoleonic era with France colonizing what used to be Carthage, and the Ottoman Empire was finally thrown out of Europe in 1912. But France made the mistake of recruiting their colonies’ populace and relied on them for their defense in WWI. They thought they could strike a deal with islam, as have socialists generally. Socialists are materialists, and they believe everyone can be bought.

    My take is that the abilities of the savages in this region have been building, but only recently and mainly due to Western medicine and arms, coupled with a lot of wishful thinking beginning with the Carter administration. And now Obama has given them nuclear weapons. Many interesting events await us.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  59. orcadrvr (3cc3b1) — 10/13/2016 @ 2:00 pm

    I blame Jimmy Carter for most of this.
    At a critical moment, namely when radical Islam claimed its first victim (Iran and the Shah),

    It wasn’t the Shah – it was Shapur Bakhtiar that Khomeini overthrew – or rather the military turned over power to him because they wanted to stop any more smass demonstrations and shootings of people in them. As a rfeward, they were executed.

    That was a mistake. Khomeini had been almost tamed. General Alexander Haig was sent by Jimmy Carter to Iran to discourage acoup. There was no need for a coup. Just leave things alone. He used he wrong argument. He should have used an argument for constitutional government, which is what he wanted..

    Now there are different versions of radical Islam. Maybe they are all connected. ecause both Khomeini and the Islamists in Pakistan condemned Salman Rushdie for writing the book “The Satanic Verses.” In fact it started in India and Pakistan and Khomeini took the issue away from them. That was in 1989. I still don’t understand the relationship betwene Iran and others. Something is going on that is just not clear. They even had something to do with 9/11.

    Sammy Finkelman (e3cf91)

  60. Cold war vs. Russia

    things not well with Iran

    The middle east is on fire

    Neighbors north and south have dim view of America

    China expanding and taking names

    England leaving the EU

    Germany Duetche Bank near failure

    Zero interest rates

    BTW, didn’t some dude named Obama win the Nobel Peace Prize?

    Bawawawahaha

    Steve_in_SoCal (58e1f9)

  61. Sammy Finkelman: the Iranians are Persians, but believe in a strain of Islam. But at the end of the day, they all have the Mafioso creed: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    Steve_in_SoCal (58e1f9)

  62. … the Ottoman Empire was finally thrown out of Europe in 1912.

    Apropos of the above: by late 1912 the House of Osman was chucked out of much of the Balkans rather unceremoniously, yes… But only by 1913 was this made official. For most of 1912, the lion’s share of what is now modern Greece and Serbia were still Ottoman territories.

    After the First Balkan War, the Ottomans held on to a strip of what is now Albania and access to Marmara. They even recovered East Thrace from the Bulgarians in 1913; Edirne province is part of modern Turkey.

    JP (f1742c)

  63. JP, thanks for the correction.

    The story on the two tankers detained by the Houthis on Sept. 14th is also becoming clearer. The two ships were delivering refined oil products to the Houthi, arriving in early September. But international banking connections had been closed to the Yemen regime, and the Houthi couldn’t pay the $39 million due the charterer, so the oil wasn’t unloaded. But the Houthi control the harbor and thus the ships, so the decision not to unload was no longer in the hands of the charterer. So now the ships are being held in Aden and presumably have been unloaded. The cargo is (was?) owned by Swiss-based trading houses (Gunvor and Litasco) which are the trading arms of Lukoil, the Russian oil company.

    Bottom line is that it seems unlikely that our SEALs are interested in freeing the ships. They must have other fish to fry. However, the Houthi probably have a different view of the matter, regarding the closing of international banking connections as the cause of their difficulties. It is not unreasonable to regard the attacks on the Swift and the Mason/Ponce as the Houthi response to our “peaceful” economic pressure.

    It’s interesting that our peaceful practice of using trade restrictions to attempt to restrain foreign country’s intent on aggression (Imperial Japan, for example,) has once again resulted in something other than “peace”. It is also the case that you can be pretty certain that somewhere a platoon of messengers are in route to a safe intermediary (Bahrain?) with thirty-nine brief cases full of gold. This is how Turkey paid Iran for its oil during the embargo, so the wheels have been well greased, and the process has been proven effective and economical. The real surprise is that the Russians and the Houthi have gotten tangled up in this controversy. One would think the whole thing would have been handled in Tehran long before the ships arrived in Aden.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  64. My default position is that we should not be at war. It’s getting harder and harder to convince me otherwise.

    Yes, well, you don’t get a choice with Islam. Islam divides the world into Dar al Harb, the house of war that has not submitted to Muslim rule, and the Dar al Islam, the house of Islam where Sharia reigns supreme. You, Pat, like me are kuffar harbi because you have not subjected yourself to third class citizen status under Muslim rule. Kuffar harbi simply means an unbeliever at war with Islam. Why are you at war with Islam? Because you have not accepted either Islam or Islamic supremacist rule. Islam has much more creative ways of defining aggression against the Muslim umma and oppression of Muslims than you might imagine. Rejecting Islam is both aggression and oppression.

    The Quran provides the key to it’s own interpretation.

    Surah 2:106 Al-Baqarah (The Cow)

    We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?/blockquote>

    Surah 16:101 An-Nahl (The Bee)

    And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse – and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down – they say, “You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies].” But most of them do not know.

    When there is a conflict between verses or chapters of the Quran, what comes later abrogates or replaces what came earlier. Surah 9, At-Tawbah (The Repentance), was the last substantive chapter Muhammad delivered to his followers. It’s commonly called the Verse of the Sword. It’s the most violent verse in the Quran, commanding the violent subjugation of non-believers, including primarily Christians and Jews, but also Zoroastrians, and whomever else qualifies as one of the “people of the book,” i.e. a people who received divine revelation commanding monotheism. But it’s only a temporary concession, our unbelief in the Allah of Islam will send us to H3ll on judgement day. The Quran isn’t organized in chronological order, though. I’m not saying this is authoritative, I’d never say Wiki-anything is authoritative, but it’s an example of how you can’t tell what came first without a guide. So without a guide, you don’t know what has been abrogated by a later verse. Hamas-linked CAIR and other liars will tell you the principle of abrogation doesn’t exist in Islam but the briefest study of Sharia manuals will demonstrate that they are (but I repeat myself) lying.

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur%27an

    Muslims don’t get a choice in this either. In orthodox Islam, not the fictitious “hijacked” version, we are all slaves of Allah.

    Surah 2:216 Al-Baqarah (The Cow)

    Fighting has been enjoined upon you while it is hateful to you. But perhaps you hate a thing and it is good for you; and perhaps you love a thing and it is bad for you. And Allah Knows, while you know not.

    Pious Muslims are commanded to hate non-Muslims and violently subjugate or convert them to Islam.

    Surah 60:4 Al-Mumtahanah (She that is to be examined)

    There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, “Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone” except for the saying of Abraham to his father, “I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.

    Muhammad is presented as an unqualified excellent pattern. By that the Arabic makes clear a role model you must emulate. Abraham is also presented as an excellent pattern in all things save one; he prayed for forgiveness for his family. Muslims are commanded NOT to do this. They are commanded to hate.

    I highly recommend Raymond Ibrahim’s “The Al Qaeda Reader.” It might seem dated, but it illustrates the modern jihadist mindset first exemplified by Hassan al Banna who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928. This was not in reaction to any US policy. You have to understand US policy is irrelevant. They will complain about it, yes, but they are just being manipulative and taking advantage of widespread ignorance of what Islam is actually about. Hassan al Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood for no other reason than Kemal Ataturk abolished the Caliphate in 1924. Only the Caliph is permitted to authorize offensive jihad against unbelievers. It doesn’t matter how inoffensive those unbelievers might have been; they have not accepted Islam, therefore they are Allah’s enemies, and therefor they are the Muslim’s enemies. There is no allowable course of action we can take other than submit and become Muslims or submit and become dhimmis; any other course of action makes us the enemies of Islam. As Muhammad put it:

    Home » Sahih al-Bukhari » Book of Fighting for the Cause of Allah (Jihaad)

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah ‘s Apostle said, ” I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)”

    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2946
    In-book reference : Book 56, Hadith 158
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 196
    (deprecated numbering scheme)

    I realize some people are going to accuse me of “cherrypicking” verses to make the “Religion of Peace” appear violent. This is a laugh. The only Quran I have handy at the moment (a lot of my books are boxed up due to the remodel) is a Yusuf Ali transliteration. Yusuf Ali is not my favorite transliteration as he deliberately butchers the Arabic to make the Quran more palatable to Western audiences. Still there are over 480 exhortations to Muslims to commit acts of violence against non-Muslims. That’s a lot, considering there are only 114 chapters, and the entire text (not counting glossary and index) is only 441 pages long. To coin a phrase, you can’t swing a dead cat in a Quranic reading room without hitting an exhortation to violence against non-Muslims.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  65. they declared war on us, in aden harbour, if memory serves 16 years ago,
    narciso (d1f714) — 10/13/2016 @ 10:17 am

    Respectfully, it’s been a lot longer than 16 years.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  66. Keep in mind when I tell of the Quran’s exhortations to violence I do not mean this.

    Surah 3:151 Ali ‘Imran (Family of Imran)

    We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.

    That merely expresses allah’s enthusiasm for a method. I am speaking of this.

    Surah 9:14 At-Tawbah (The Repentance)

    Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people

    I am speaking of allah’s commands to the instruments by which he will supposedly terrorize his enemies. The Muslims.

    No, I’m not suggesting all Muslims are violent terrorists. Earlier I quoted an ayah in which even allah admitted that fighting is hateful even to professing Muslims (2:216). Thank God, most Muslims lead better lives than their prophet. But that doesn’t change the fact that their religion commands them to violence in the cause of their deity.

    I am curious, and maybe Pat will answer this and maybe somebody else with children will answer this. What do you say to your kids when you advocate abandoning the field to the enemy because supposedly you’re tired of war? I will be on the retired list forever. Which means til death do us part. They, the Navy, can call me back to active duty any time. I’m not tired. Admittedly I served in more comfortable circumstances than the mud wrestlers. But I know what it means to be sleep deprived, cold, and hungry in the service of my country. How are people who never put on the uniform more tired of this war? Which has been ongoing for 1200 years. Not 1400 years, as the early history of Islam is complete bulls**t, an invention, and must not be believed. But nearly 2 billion people globally profess to to believe it, such is the power of the death sentence for apostasy, so unfortunately we have to take the threat of Islam seriously.

    What do you say to your children when you not only leave this war unfought, but unmentioned?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  67. How about “I’m sorry”?

    But will our children care? They are being indoctrinated to be oblivious to what should be painfully obvious. And this is not unusual. The victims of the 20th Century’s mass slaughters were genuinely surprised to find that the “showers” had neither soap nor water. The assumption is always that things will continue to operate more or less as they have. Who could imagine that those who didn’t join the commune would be intentionally starved to death, that it would be punishable by death to have any food in their cottage during the winter months, or that the “Great Leap Forward” would result in famine in some of the world’s most fertile agricultural lands. Why would the “Dear Leader” want to kill so many? It never makes sense to the victims.

    We watch jihadist’s slaughter innocents, and our “leaders” conclude that the whole thing is insanity since they can’t comprehend the motives of those who, in cold blood, plan and execute these atrocities. The liberal/socialist mind is so focused on material things that they have no conception that others might assess the world in entirely different terms.

    Worse, our leaders recognizing our reluctance to deal in reality, have concluded that they need to fight this war on the cheap, in the sly, with technology. So we arm our savage allies with drones, and they proceed to use them to commit mass slaughter on those attending funerals and weddings. And the only clues as to the perpetrator is shrapnel with “Made in USA” still visible on a few fragments.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  68. true, dar al harb was staked out sometime in the 7th century, with the first clashes on persian and byzantine territory, but there have been interregnums in the subsequent millenia,

    narciso (d1f714)

  69. …Worse, our leaders recognizing our reluctance to deal in reality…

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe) — 10/16/2016 @ 5:02 pm

    Sir, I must interject. Our “leaders” do not recognize any such reluctance to deal with reality on our part. They assume it. The hope it. But I’m confident you and I are quite capable of dealing with reality and we’re not the only ones. It’s our “leaders” who can’t. It’s why they call us names.

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  70. If a Navy of two plus a few would be capable of dealing with our difficulties, then my estimate of our problems is off by five or six orders of magnitude. I believe we got to this place in part because of a misplaced emphasis on an Army of One. But let me know if you can see something useful a handful of old geezers could accomplish.

    Did you notice that POS Sec. of Navy Maybus is eliminating ratings? No more Bosuns or Enginemen, just sailors. All interchangeable, cannon fodder in Maybus’s mind no doubt. This is probably some kind of dodge on meeting affirmative action goals. If you don’t have enough female Bosuns, just eliminate the category. Or the fact that some ratings are more respected than others may have triggered microaggression responses that were determined to be detrimental to good order. Also I had to laugh at our LCS fiasco. Some poor CO got cashiered over a massive turbine failure attributed to improper maintenance early this year. About three months later, three more ships had related difficulties and the whole fleet, both versions, have been pulled from service. And the Iranian cruise missiles that fell into the sea before striking the Mason may have been early models with an 18.5 nm range. The export version of the Iranian 802 is said to have a 75 nm range. They might prove to be more of a problem once the Houthis receive the next batch. And the radar sites attacked by the Nitze sound like they were coastal navigation sites, and may not have been associated with the cruise missile targeting system. This would be about par for the course.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)

  71. Bob, how is what you wrote in conflict with anything I’ve ever expressed?

    Steve57 (0b1dac)

  72. Steve, I don’t think I’ve expressed any concerns over your posts generally, although in this case I question whether a few of us can make any difference in the course of what is about to happen. My Navy of Two was meant to be a joke. Beyond that, I was just venting over the state of our military. The actions off Yemen have me concerned about our abilities to deal with these cruise missiles, particularly if our ROEs will result in a successful attack by the Houthi. It seems likely that the missiles used in the recent attacks simply didn’t have the range needed to strike the ships, but this will surely be addressed in future attacks. Taking out the launcher and the targeting radar seems like a more reliable defense than waiting for the missile to appear above the horizon, but that didn’t happen in either of the two previous events.

    My biases may be clouding my judgment, but things appear to be getting much worse as Obama’s reign comes to an end, which is what I expected. The response is nothing but yawns and even a call to withdraw from world affairs, and then we have this endless focus on Trump. But what to do over the next four months, and perhaps the next four years? I rather doubt Obama’s administration could wage even a small war successfully, and I would question his motives from the start.

    I’m following up on Kevin’s recommendation of Term Limits for a little cathartic relief. I read it 15 years ago, but I’ve forgotten enough of the details that I can still get a chuckle or two.

    BobStewartatHome (a52abe)


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