Debate Recap: Denial and Interruptions
I didn’t see the debate last night, but from clips and commentary, it appears that Mike Pence cemented his role as the earnest milquetoasty gentleman who seems like a good guy but has a difficult time with the positions of his running mate. According to the evidence from this clip — which is a literally a commercial for the evil Hillary/Kaine ticket, which I utterly reject, but which is a very effective compilation — Pence is dealing with the problem of his candidate’s (and even his own!) bizarre utterances through the magical psychological tool of denial:
Having said that, this is well done pic.twitter.com/nReQds7SP0
— Liam Donovan (@LPDonovan) October 5, 2016
Meanwhile, Tim Kaine (raise that left brow a little higher, Tim! little higher! even higher!! PERFECT!) apparently tried to dominate the debate through a technique called “constant interruption”:
Kaine interrupted so much, Vox probably thinks Pence is a woman, oppressed by the male-dominated culture.
One Donald J. Trump was very offended by this, it seems:
The constant interruptions last night by Tim Kaine should not have been allowed. Mike Pence won big!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 5, 2016
And why wouldn’t he be? Donald J. Trump is a gentleman and would never engage in such rude tactics!
Oh. Right.
The interruptions of my preferred candidate show confidence and dominance. The interruptions of your preferred candidate are rude and boorish. Please follow this important template in discussions below.
oh my goodness if I were this lacky daisy you would fire me as a commenter and you would be right to do so
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:22 amit’s rather clear, she’s lillian hellman, and no syllable from her need be believed,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:24 amPence dominated the debate. Kaine came off as smarmy and unlikable.
Wrong candidates at the top of the ticket. That said, Pence is the best we can hope for out of the 4 remaining politicians.
NJRob (a07d2e) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:47 amTim Kaine ignored the efforts of the moderator to get him to stop, while Mike Pence largely honored them. The moderator only got more successful toward the last third of the debate. The moderator was a woman.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:03 amNJRob (a07d2e) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:47 am
Maybe the election will get thrown into the House of Representatives, the House will be deadlocked, and the Senate will remain Republican and choose Mike Pence for Vice President?
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:06 am“Milquetoasty”.
Guess you might know.
DNF (755a85) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:07 amAnother view:
http://spectator.org/able-slays-kaine/
DNF (755a85) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:12 am#nevertrump and ‘climate science’ have something in common, no bona fides:
http://scholarsandwritersforamerica.org/
DNF (755a85) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:20 amMy preferred candidate(s) are not running. I’ll vote for Ishizu Ishtar before I vote for either one of these two. Here’s why.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:31 amI wonder how many people here want others to look at them and think:
“He reminds me a lot of Donald Trump.”
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:32 amMiscellany:
http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.1047/a-farmer-noticed-the-entrance-to-a-cave-what-he-found-amazes-the-world.html
DNF (755a85) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:35 amFrench ‘no go’ tradition has caught on in Denmark:
http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.3169/denmark-is-burning.html?
DNF (755a85) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:37 amso the bezerker in scharbeek is ex belgian army, hicham r,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:26 amtry, try again,
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-qatar-idUSKCN1251NT
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:31 amFrom another thread, Patterico has shown us how Mr. Feet used to comment:
https://patterico.com/2016/10/04/open-thread-vice-presidential-debate/#comment-1934852
It’s worth your time reading the post I link there.
In fact, I wonder if folks can set up a debate between the New and Old Mr. Feet.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:47 amfurther details,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3823416/Belgian-train-station-evacuated-searched-bombs-two-police-officers-stabbed.html
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 10:00 amI thought Kaine was terrible. And I dislike Pence, and have never disliked Kaine (a hometown politician.)
SarahW (3164f0) — 10/5/2016 @ 10:35 amSo why not run a debate like the old Crossfire and have Tucker Carlson and Jon Stewart moderate (as seconds if you will)?
Pinandpuller (2b3898) — 10/5/2016 @ 10:51 amIshizu Ishtar can see the future, so she’s better employed with the NSA.
Yami Marik makes a better presidential candidate.
Ingot (e5bf64) — 10/5/2016 @ 11:00 amshut up kaine
papertiger (19ee0b) — 10/5/2016 @ 11:40 amKaine, like several other D governors/senators, may have been the electoral beneficiary of faux libertarians and other 3rd party general election participants. Still stand by my assessment of Webb and Warner as better Virginians the D’s could have called upon.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/5/2016 @ 11:42 amPence won.
Kaine lost.
There’s a storm brewing– and not just in St. Louis.
“Somebody’s going to have a hurricane.”– ‘Marooned’ – 1969
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 11:47 amI was just listening to Rush talk about the Cooper/Raddatz dustup. What I’m talking about is two on two-not three on one.
I don’t really follow basketball but I’m sure even LeBron James would have some problems being triple-teamed.
Pinandpuller (e2e35f) — 10/5/2016 @ 11:50 am“I don’t have a mark on me.”
Kaine
Pinandpuller (e2e35f) — 10/5/2016 @ 11:56 amThree and a half of the six accusations in the ad are completely wrong.
1) Kaine said both Trump and Pence had called Vladimir Putin a great leader. But they both called him a STRONG leader. GREAT ≠ STRONG
That’s simply not the same thing, just like calling a judge biased is not calling him unqualified as Kaine repeatedly accused trump of having done. They had no video for that, because it’s not true.
Now Trump may have meant that Putin was good because he was strong, but Pence did not.
RATING: AT BEST, HALF TRUE.
2) Trump was portrayed as not knowing that Putin had already innvaded Ukraine. He clearly meant the current territory of Ukraine in Crimea, and was talking only about official Russian forces, not little green men.
RATING: FALSE.
3) It was nonsense. Yes, at one point Trump called for a deportation force – and in the debate, Pence said such a deportation force existed now, and it was ICE whose union had endorsed him. So Pence is saying something that he later in the debate said is true, is nonsense?
Here is the full exchange:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/06/us/politics/vice-president-transcript.html
What’s nonsense is that they want to go house to house, and that they want to kick out 16 million people, which nothing they propose would come close to, and that he wants to include in the people to be kicked out 4 and a half million – or is it 5 million – maybe it adds up to 16 million due to rounding – 4 and a half million people who are now considered citizens of the United States and voters
That is nonsense.
RATING: FALSE.
4. Donald Trump did for a day or two say women who have abortions should be punished. But Pence was speaking about the future. Trump took it back the next day or so.
RATING: FALSE.
5. Trump did say that some other nations (maybe) should have nuclear weapons. He mentioned Japana and South Korea, and when asked, agreed also yes Saudi Arabia.
RATING: TRUE – He did say that.
6. Trump did say keep people out if they are Muslim, but that’s not his current position. He since amneded that to people who come from certain countries if they are not vetted. You notice also that Tim Kaine was cut off in the video, becasue what Tim Kaine wanted to keep out was people from a certain country, but the video cuts off before those words so that Pence can appear to be agreeing with what Trump said last November. Now it s all Syrian refugees because Comey said they couldn’t be vetted. Has Pence noticed exactly what kind of credibility Comey has? Zero.
RATING: FALSE. Because that’s not trump’s position now. He also had qualified it by saying it should be temporary until we figure out what’s going on. he quickly also excepted U.S. citizens and permanent residents and people from allied nations.
Sammy Finkelman (643dcd) — 10/5/2016 @ 12:01 pmDNF,
There is zero substance to that comment of yours, which I just quoted in its entirety. It’s just an insult. Nothing more.
I’d be on solid ground to ban you for that. And I’m tempted to. I tolerate a lot here in the furtherance of allowing all views to be expressed. But there’s no reason for me to keep people here who just lob content-free insults as you just did.
Rather than ban you, I’ll simply note that you’re on very thin ice and that I intend to start banning people who make comments like this. And if I am too milquetoasty for you, I’ll cordially invite you to voluntarily take a hike. I assure you: the sort of commentary I quoted at the beginning of this comment will NOT be missed.
Patterico (b67841) — 10/5/2016 @ 12:33 pmAnyone else want to try me today?
Patterico (b67841) — 10/5/2016 @ 12:34 pmWe’re going to start implementing standards here and if there are only five people on Earth who can adhere to them, why then I’ll enjoy my discussions with those five people.
I am more optimistic than that, though.
Patterico (b67841) — 10/5/2016 @ 12:36 pmWhat’s more, the insult was totally unprovoked. You can’t defend it on the grounds that you and I were in an argument and maybe I deserve some responsibility.
You just acted like a dick. Out of nowhere. Well, we’re not doing that here any more.
Patterico (b67841) — 10/5/2016 @ 12:41 pm@28 — You’re going to build a wall. 😉 “… and Mexico will pay for it!”– Donald Trump, almost any day, 2015-2016 Presidential campaign
“Jack be nimble, Jack be quick Take a ride on the West Coast kick…” ‘Holiday Road’ -from National Lampoon’s Vacation, 1983
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 12:45 pmGood luck on that, Patterico. There are an awful lot of dickish people these days.
There are also decent people who even when they disagree, are…well, decent.
They get drowned out, I fear.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 10/5/2016 @ 12:48 pmI’m just watching it now. If president Hillary keels over or president Trump gets peeved and resigns who do you want as VP?
Patricia (5fc097) — 10/5/2016 @ 1:31 pmCNN has been padding their surveys with 11% more Democrats than Republicans. On the Clinton Trump debate as well as the Kaine Pence debate.
Pence trounced Kaine even with the crooked spread.
I heard it through the grapevine.
papertiger (82d7e8) — 10/5/2016 @ 2:06 pm26: Patterico to DNF: “I’d be on solid ground to ban you for that. And I’m tempted to. I tolerate a lot here in the furtherance of allowing all views to be expressed. But there’s no reason for me to keep people here who just lob content-free insults as you just did.”
Are you going to turn this site into what the comments section of NRO and NRO/Corner have become? An empty field with tumbleweeds blowing through. And tips on how you can get google to pay you $97/hr working online.
I don’t think anybody at NRO is particularly enjoying their discussions with the remaining 5 commenters.
It’s not so much a case of “nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.” It’s more like “nobody goes there anymore.”
fred-2 (ce04f3) — 10/5/2016 @ 2:22 pmSessions just said Trump is just going to do self-depo’ after all.
http://www.newsmax.com/Politics/Jeff-Sessions-Trump-Self-Deportation-Plan/2016/10/05/id/751844/
Romney, grab the honor Cruz threw away and dispatch some contractors (i.e. same ones who rescued some Bain guys from a cartel) to do him.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 10/5/2016 @ 2:37 pmWhen I was in ninth grade a couple of guys were talking trash to one another during a lull in metal shop. I thought of a really funny comeback and told one of them. The one I told said, “Hey Mark, you should hear what he said about you.”
Mark said, “What did you say?”
I said, “Nothing, it was just some dumb comment.”
After class Mark hit me in the mouth as soon as I broke the plane of the classroom doorway.
That wouldn’t have been so bad except my head was against a locker.
It would have been a lot worse except my braces and retainer kept me from swallowing my bottom incisors until I got to the dentist 30 minutes later.
Conclusion: Weigh throwaway comments with the possible consequences.
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 2:51 pmMark is a pooper is the takeaway there I think
happyfeet (a037ad) — 10/5/2016 @ 3:02 pmhappy feet is delusional. hasn’t voted in years, but happy to tell y’all what 2 do
TheThinMan (6b40cf) — 10/5/2016 @ 3:24 pmalso, Mike Pence is a stand-up dude. (Been lurking for *years* never had a reason to comment except now)
TheThinMan (6b40cf) — 10/5/2016 @ 3:26 pmI was reading a novel today and came across something interesting, tangentially related to this election.
St Audrey is the patron saint of diseases of the throat and neck. Her real name was Ethelreda.
She took a perpetual vow of virginity yet was married twice.
The first time around she was widowed in an unconsummated marriage.
The second time she got married for political reasons, but had to flee her husband before he could forcefully consummate things with her.
Here’s the interesting part, I think, from Catholic Online:
She eventually died of an enormous and unsightly tumor on her neck, which she gratefully accepted as Divine retribution for all of the necklaces she had worn in her early years. Throughout the Middle Ages , a festival, St. Audrey’s Fair, was held at Ely on her feast day. The exceptional shodiness of the merchandise, especially the neckerchiefs, contributed to the English language the word “tawdry”, a corruption of “Saint Audrey.”
There’s something for everyone: Throat issues, shoddy ties from Cathay, and etymology.
It makes me wonder if Hillary is getting some Divine retribution for wearing shoulder pads.
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 3:27 pmOT
Reminder of what we have to look forward to in a Clinton administration…
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/4/irs-subjects-tea-party-groups-to-new-round-of-scru/
Weaponizing the arms of the Federal Government is enough of a reason to try and ensure she never gets the White House.
NJRob (478ea4) — 10/5/2016 @ 3:32 pmA couple of weeks back I came across a line in a novel which basically said that shrews are, by weight, the deadliest creatures on earth.
I’m sure everyone is familiar with the term in relation to women but I did a little research on the actual animals.
The description given them, here from Listverse, sounds like it could actually replace trolls on the internet, or at least become a sub-species:
Shrews distinguish themselves by their incredibly high metabolism, which gives them an extraordinarily high strung and vicious disposition. Shrews must eat constantly, and in order to sustain themselves, they savagely attack prey twice their own size…Shrews can inject venom when they bite, but they normally kill by crushing the base of the skull. Shrew aggression is extremely hazardous to any animal that approaches, but the tiny beasts are so high strung that they have been known to drop dead from the stress of surprise before they can savage their adversary.
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:02 pmwill it be more slaving than sullivan’s in 2008, that’s a high bar,
https://twitter.com/jamestaranto/status/783784541823574017
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:08 pmdoes anyone how to run a railroad,
http://observer.com/2016/10/has-the-russian-mole-inside-nsa-finally-been-arrested/
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:25 pm@32-I’m just watching it now. If president Hillary keels over or president Trump gets peeved and resigns who do you want as VP?
Precisely. Particularly considering they’re both literally sick in the head.
“If Mr. McMurphy doesn’t want to take his medication orally, I’m sure we can arrange that he can have it some other way. But I don’t think that he would like it.” – Nurse Rached [Louise Fletcher] ‘One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest’ – 1975
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:29 pm26, “zero substance”, Now that is ironic.
I’ve had enuf of you too.
DNF (ffe548) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:29 pmpence didn’t even get past the cartilage, I told you quijano would run interference,
http://babalublog.com/2016/10/05/tim-kaine-opposes-death-penalty-but-greatly-influenced-by-liberation-theology-which-was-hatched-by-the-kgb-with-fidel-castro-and-che-guevara-as-its-idols/
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:29 pmI think our host has shown superhuman restraint in this. He’s set up a page of free content for all of us, allowing us to exchange ideas and arguments. And for his troubles, he’s been called every name in the book. His crime? Thinking Trump would be a terrible President.
One of the reasons I have decreased the frequency of my comments is seeing just how ugly it gets for anyone who differs at all from the party line on any matter. And if it were just logical arguments trying to prove a point, that’d be fine. Instead, it’s a barrage of ad hominem attacks and childish ridicule.
Whatever it is you happen to believe, you will find intelligent, reasonable people who disagree with you. So, what is the purpose of your comments? Are you trying to change the minds of these intelligent people who disagree, are will you just fling poo at them? More and more in the online world, it’s been the latter. (Read the comments at HuffPo, they’re actually nastier than the ones here.)
I want conservatives to win elections. But more than that, I want people to change their mindset about the role government should be playing in our lives. And some time last year, I realized the only way to achieve that goal is to go out and persuade people. In the past, I’ve indulged in name-calling, and I am embarrassed to realize that. So, to get the negativity out of my system, I’ve drastically reduced the comments I make. A nice side effect of that is that, since I rarely post, I don’t get called names, and that seems to be good for my blood pressure.
There are some really good commenters here, and I enjoy reading their thoughts. But when I see threads devolve into a series of gotchas and slurs, I just move on. So, if Patterico wants to start kicking out the bums and malingerers, I’m with him 100%.
Chuck Bartowski (211c17) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:34 pm@47.pence didn’t even get past the cartilage, I told you quijano would run interference,
“Que? Que?” – Manuel, [Andrew Sachs] “Fawlty Towers” BBC TV, – 1975
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:38 pmyes, government should play less of a role, except there are some critical areas, where it needs to play more, the original constitutionally mandated ones, as robin an education analyst has pointed out, the constructavist networks in education, being pedaled by the medici’s and other itinerants like lamar! are in no way conservative, in fact they arise from the same poisoned well as babalu points out,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:41 pmthe problem is the left already erased the breadcrumbs, that lead back to normal social interactions, the links therein tell the tale,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:49 pmthey said this of the huntress, as usual it was an exercise in projection,
https://pjmedia.com/video/c-span-caller-who-claims-to-know-tim-kaine-says-hes-manchurian-candidate/
yes pence’s obstinate belief in a no fly zone is a little concerning, but one figures he would be outvoted in this instance,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:52 pm@48-His crime? Thinking Trump would be a terrible President.
Chuck posts Patterico is committing ‘thought crime’– in 2016???
This ain’t 1984– unless you’re still using a Macintosh.
“Hey, Chuckie, Chuckie, Chuckie….” ‘The Unknown Comic’ – ‘The Gong Show,’ ABC TV, 1976
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 4:54 pmI’ve found that newsmax has increasingly become enmeshed in the clinton foundation boondoggles, so I’m skeptical about the nature of that story,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:02 pmThere’s going to be a vacuum in the Executive Branch.
One sucks. The other blows.
So which do you buy: the Hoover or the Dirt Devil?
Your decision should be easy:
The party that opens its national convention showcasing illegal immigrants as prime time speakers to a national television audience, lecturing the people of the United States, is not the party that has the best interests of the nation in mind this election cycle.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:09 pmKaine lost the debate for sure, and his interruptions were a big part of why, same as how Trump lost the debate pretty clearly to all but his most devoted supporters.
I was hoping for something better from Kaine… it can’t be that hard to impress with such poor candidates on the general election stage. I suppose he just isn’t cut out to be the VP attack dog.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:14 pmquijano, still kept the really damaging material off the charts, that’s her job, as part of the media cartel,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:24 pmhe’s a more cleanshaven marxist, the dems did not leave their true contempt for serviceman and law enforcement out of the convention, just out of the public eye,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:27 pmBye. You’re banned.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:29 pmwhich is something which should have been of note, but only to samizdat publications,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:31 pmI don’t know, Fred-2. You’re still coming here for some reason. I cordially invite you to leave if you don’t like the free ice cream.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:31 pmprowlerguy, DNF, and Dystopia Max banned. Haiku apparently self-deported.
I’m not happy about Haiku, whom I generally like — but since his penultimate comment here was mocking me and the site, I can live with it.
I’m pretty pleased with the rest of the bans. Who else?
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:34 pmI just hope you remember, Patterico, and keep front of mind, that there is the secret ballot.
Regardless of how much virtue signalling you do between now and then, you can still do the Patriotic thing and vote for Trump over Hillary in the privacy of the voting booth. That is your right. That is what this right of yours is for.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:36 pmThat goes for the rest of you.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:37 pmThanks. If kicking out the jerks helps convince people like you or DRJ or Beldar or Simon Jester or Dustin (and the list goes on) to comment more, so much the better.
But even if it doesn’t, I’ll still feel good about it. The three people I have banned in the last 72 hours or so had been a negative influence here for a while anyway.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:38 pmWhy are you hoping for something better from the Democrat candidate exactly?
Oh. Right.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:38 pmwe understand the purpose of the puffington host, to serve soros and other transnational progressive interests, wonder if andrew regretted having set it up for arianna,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:40 pmThey’ve all been Trump supporters injecting a lot of reason and especially insight into what otherwise would be an echo-chamber backwater (backwater in the sense of a largely irrelevant portion of the electorate that lost—the political past, if you will.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:40 pmVirtue signalling is an idiot alt-right label. I say what I believe, and maybe you believe different things — and if you’re self-centered and lack the ability to imagine that people might reasonably disagree with you, maybe you conclude that the only reason people would say the things I say is to falsely signal virtue to others. That leaves quite a mystery as to why I so often say things that would not be particularly acceptable to many people in the circles in which I travel — but I don’t really expect people like you to spend much time reflecting on things like that, to be perfectly honest.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:42 pm*will).
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:42 pmI’m just saying the secret ballot exists, Patterico, and everyone has the right to take advantage of that, regardless of what they say in public.
Now, I can accept that you personally believe what you’re saying and will vote as you publicly declare. However, and I say this with earnestness, I know of several people who are afraid of job, social, and even violence consequences for voting Trump, and for them, thank G-d we have the secret ballot.
In all earnestness.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:44 pmTo be fair, these extreme, yet real, pressures come almost entirely from leftists, and not disaffected current or former Republicans.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:46 pmYup, but that ain’t why they were banned.
Tell me about the reason and insight offered by Dystopia Max’s comment about Jews.
Expound to me on the genius flashes of inspired reasoning that motivated DNF to label me a milquetoast without provocation.
Please tell me all about the unique perspective offered by Bob23’s repeated references to a frivolous lawsuit against me.
Denver Guy, I recognize you as one of the Trumpers. I’ll be honest: I don’t particularly like you much. However, if you don’t gratuitously insult me, or say openly bigoted things, or favorably cite frivolous lawsuits against me as a way to attack my character, or engage in other asshat behavior that truly merits a ban, I’m not going to ban you for supporting Donald Trump.
So you can whine and moan and gnash your teeth about the fact that the boors who have been banned are Trumpers. But all that tells me is that boorish Republicans tend to be Trumpers. Well, duh. We already knew that.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:47 pmI didn’t see those comments, but I’m sure there are reasoned and insightful things to say. It isn’t like Jews are somehow a group exactly the same as any other group (if there is such a thing) for whom there is no analysis of strengths and weaknesses possible.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:49 pmI get that. And I agree with the sentiment.
For what it’s worth, the reason I said I don’t like you is because you leap to horseshit like your insinuation above that I banned people for supporting Trump. But you also say reasonable things from time to time, and I recognize that too.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:50 pmDenver Guy, what you call virtue signalling the rest of the world calls simply being a decent human being.
Kishnevi (4cae8a) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:52 pmTo be frank, it seems unlikely that Jews were exiled over 100 times from almost 100 countries for no reason whatsoever.
I’m not saying whether the reason was good or bad, poorly thought out or well reasoned, and I’m sure each case was somewhat different. But I’ll go with Gilad Atzmon here, a Jew (or former Jew) and say that it’s probably there was some behavior here that led to results. It’s not likely to be completely inexplicable and down to divine will.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:52 pm*probable
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:52 pmDystopia Max’s comment was:
Nobody had mentioned Jews. It came out of nowhere. DM had already extolled the virtues of the alt-right, and now, in a thread about Tim Kaine, he started holding forth about the poor qualities of the “Jew.” That was enough for a ban. I stand by the decision, and if you want to argue with me about it then I may show you the door as well.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:53 pmAnd in fact, it would be to the Jewish people’s benefit, if there is such a thing as a cause and effect relationship here to be explored, to honestly and courageously examine it. That’s Gilad Atzmon’s point, and it makes sense to me.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:54 pmCan you point me to the thread in question? It’s hard to understand that sentence without context.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:55 pmI suspect a lot of it has to do with their longtime embrace of the occupation of middleman. Middlemen of various nationalities are despised the world over, largely because most human beings know fuck-all about economics and can’t appreciate the critical role middlemen play.
Or, I guess you can assume it’s their fault, as you just did. Please keep digging your hole. Dig deep enough and I’ll start throwing the dirt on you. (That’s a metaphor for a ban, by the way. People don’t understand metaphors on the Internet, I often find. Especially Trumpers. So sometimes you gotta spell it out.)
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:57 pmHappily.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:58 pmI mean, it’s possible, and likely, that a Jew will, in general, have a different take on the world than a non-Jew (and one can extrapolate this to other groups: a Mexican vs. a Welshman, a Methodist vs. a Hindu, etc.), but this part is especially puzzling: “the language of ancient tyrannies personal division….”
Might make sense in context. Doesn’t at first reading. I can’t say I disagree with the “particular hypocrisies” part, but then that’s not obviously related to ethnic identity.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 5:59 pmDing ding ding.
I’m not interested in a lengthy discussion with a Trumper about the relative merits of Jews, Denver Guy. I’m simply throwing you a little rope and watching what you do with it. (Ban metaphor again.)
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:00 pmConcrete evidence that Pence won the debate.
I’d vote for Pence over Hillary any day.
papertiger (82d7e8) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:00 pmIt’s not a big mystery, Denver Guy. It’s an anti-Semitic alt-righter obsessing about Jews in a thread where nobody else mentioned them. Because that’s what alt-righters do. When they’re not posting images of Donald Trump wearing a Nazi uniform releasing the Zyklon B on the Democrat they happen to disfavor at that particular moment.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:02 pmMe too. I think Pence lost his principles by throwing in with Trump. But that doesn’t make him Trump. I’d happily vote for Pence. I think he’s low IQ and totally unimpressive, but I’d choose him over Hillary IN A HEARTBEAT.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:03 pmeverything is a shadow on the cave wall,
http://freebeacon.com/politics/clinton-campaign-helped-script-steve-harvey-interview/
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:03 pmIt’s a possibility that that is a contributing factor, and it should be examined. If one wished to prevent this continuing tragedy for one’s people, an entire rational and moral thing to do, then one would want to understand it to the fullest, especially those things under one’s control. That is Gilad Atzmon’s point. It is precisely to improve the situation for Jews going forward, but it seems something that Jews don’t wish to consider.
It’s always possible to be a little of column a and a little of column b, don’t you think? Are we arguing for Jewish flawlessness here or something?
Right, because unique among all the people’s of the world, any possibility that their could be any flaw in Jewish culture or behavior is totally unacceptable to even propose. God’s chosen people, indeed. You seem to be making a strong argument for Jewish supremacism.
We can talk all day long about American foreign or domestic policy faults and the negative effects they cause, but don’t possibly propose the possibility that, as a group, the Jews may have engaged in behavior that had something or other to do with consequences they’ve repeatedly suffered.
Besides, the behavior, whatever it is, that may have contributed to their repeated plight could be some type of strategic error, and may not even be moral in nature. It’s unknowable if you can’t ask the question without being, er, banned. Not to mention it’s not allowed to be discussed in society. It’s almost like Jewish privilege or something.
Anyway, I’ll look at that thread. I’m curious what the context was.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:04 pmYes indeed!
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:07 pmReading from his comment upwards in reverse order, I see you both briefly discussed the Nuremberg Protocols.
Well, the Nuremberg trials were fubar from a legal fairness perspective. A lot of problems there, even if the result was eventually right.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:09 pmA bit of an aside, he’s definitely right about John T. Reed. He takes a prudent approach to real estate, and calls out the fraudster and get-rich-quick type schemes. A lot of which seem to come out of Utah, protected by their attorney generals, and which include Utah boiler rooms doing really disgusting things.
I wish Trump had not co-branded with these sorts of people, I’m sure we can all agree. Still isn’t national security felonies like Hillary.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:11 pmThe point was not that I was insisting that they could have no cultural flaw. It was that you seem to assume that any hatred of Jews must stem from such a cultural flaw, as opposed to a flaw in the culture of the haters. Here’s where I got that from you:
It doesn’t seem to cross your mind that perhaps the exile was the fault of the exilers. It literally does not seem to even occur to you that this is a possibility.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:12 pmNo, I’m sure it could be one or the other or both. I’m not sure why you feel the need to take such a black and white view of others’ views, a priori. It’s a type of straw man.
Then why did I use the words “contributing” and “may”?
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:15 pmThat you did, after I called you on your other language that seemed to place the entire blame on Jews.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:17 pmThe thing that leads me to believe it seems likely that Jewish culture/behavior plays a significant role in it is the frequency and length of time over which it has happened. It can’t, logically, only be Jewish culture and behavior, since it was a reaction by other cultures.
It’s the parsimonious hypothesis. The exploration of which, incidentally, could help the Jewish people in the future—Gilad Atzmon’s point.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:18 pmI guess you decided to virtue signal a little after I pointed it out.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:18 pmyou know I’ll never really understand antisemitism, it’s one of these demonic serpents that satan let loose, it has many faces from haman to nero, with public troubadours from luther to drumont, in different ways,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:19 pmTo me Denver Guy, Divine Will is the Only true explanation. Being a city guy I know a lot of Jews and my first wife was Jewish. I have never seen any difference between them and anyone else. Now, some Jews I know are from Russia and some from Poland and some from Germany and THEY are definitely different. But that’s their nationality not their Jewishness.
And I am one who is not afraid to point out differences and characteristics both good and bad about different people.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:19 pmI commend to you almost any Thomas Sowell work on middlemen. You lack imagination as to why humans might be irrational. Read. Learn.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:19 pmThis was my original language. It was fair and reasonable.
P.S. It is possible to have a bad thing happen in response to your behavior, where your behavior was not morally bad and the other actor’s was, yet the response was predictable and your behavior was perhaps unwise. I’m not saying that is the case here, but it’s within the realm of possibility … and you’d still want to understand it if you wanted the best outcome.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:21 pmIs it unwise to be a middleman?
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:22 pmsurely in malaysia and indonesia, it was the chinese diaspora, the latter were caught up in suharto’s dragnet, in turkey, armenians and then kurds catch the brunt of it, besides the no 1 bete noire, the people of the kingdom like to kill shia, which the iranians took note about,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:22 pmI’ve been doing pulmonary stuff all day and I get here and guys are banned. What the heck? The Colonel is self banning? What about Steve57? What about me am I getting banned?
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:25 pmNo hard feelings, Patterico. I’ve just come to the conclusion that I’m too old to be wasting so much time posting opinions when I’ve pretty much said all I wanted to say around this election. And Sunday morning was a bad one… on my way home from my daily 2 mile walk I came across my neighbor who with red-rimmed eyes told me his son had died in the early hours in a car crash. 21 years old… A California Golden Gloves champ who I used to shoot the sh*t with, usually laughing with him about the latest car he’d purchased. Always had a smile on his face… a young man with promise.
Anyways, I was getting increasingly bent out of shape and frustrated with the goings on here and it really shouldn’t matter that much to me. I just hope we make it thru the hard rain coming our way.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:25 pmI’m just saying: if you go around bragging about being an alt-righter and then you start pontificating about the defects of the Jews out of the blue, you’re gonna get banned at this blog pretty quick, before you can start posting the Nazi photoshops that you want to post on my bandwidth.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:26 pmThis site is not short on Trump supporters who are honest and can have a civil disagreement with someone who is not a Trump supporter. It’s just that the trollish Trump fans comment in a way to demand reactions and tend to hijack threads with ugly back and forth.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:26 pmsorry to hear that coronello,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:27 pmYou’re a good guy, Colonel. You hurt my feelings with your mocking lyrics, I’ll be honest. But you have enough of a history here that I can overlook that stuff.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:27 pmHaiku, that’s awful news. For all our angry backs and forths I agree with your sentiment that life is too short to get bent out of shape with argument theater. No matter the results of the election, our country will have to make it through the continuing storm.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:28 pmYou’re not banned, Hoagie. DNF, Dystopia Max, and Bob23 are banned. Do you want me to walk you through the reasons? I was just doing so with Denver Guy vis a vis Dystopia Max.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:29 pmIt’s truly awful news about the car crash, and puts the rest of this nonsense in its proper perspective.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:30 pmDNF: insulted me for absolutely no reason upthread by calling me a milquetoast. I told him he was not banned but was on thin ice. He then posted: “I’ve had enuf of you too.” Fine. He’s gone.
Bob23 started calling me Junior repeatedly and then, in the final straw, starting citing Nadia Naffe’s frivolous and dismissed lawsuit against me as evidence of my bad character. Nasty and dishonest. Banned.
Dystopia Max we have been discussing for the last 20 comments or so. A bizarre anti-Semitic comment out of the blue, coming from a self-declared alt-righter (they tend to be openly anti-Semitic).
Nobody is getting banned for saying they think Trump is better than Hillary. OK?
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:33 pmNarciso, when I called Max a slave of the Sitra Achra, there was a reason I used that term. The literal meaning is “the Other Side”. But the first anti-Semite to be noted was Amalek.
And all those exiles, were almost all the result of religiously rooted hatred. Sometimes Moslem (especially in Iran), but the vast majority by Christian entities. There is some truth to the middleman hypothesis: but Jews were middlemen because Christians would not let them be anything else.
And all that of course is rooted in the Mother of our Exiles: the Roman genocides, wars, and persecutions that began shortly before the birth of Jesus, peaked in the Wars of the Destruction and Bar Kochba, and did not taper out until about 200 CE. Which was caused by the Roman fixation on forcing everyone else to serve them.
Kishnevi (4cae8a) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:38 pmThat’s okay Patterico. I just read up thread so as to catch up. Is that a permanent ban or is it a timed ban like two months or something? Were they on some sort of probation I am unaware of or is it just Wham!, banned?
Colonel, sorry about your friend. It’s really sad when they’re so young.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:38 pmPretty much wham bammed thank you ma’am.
If any of them were to write and apologize and seemingly sincerely promise to do better, I’m sure I’d relent. Not expecting that.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:46 pmUnlike many exiled groups, the Jews have managed to survive this treatment. Their persistence in the face of such adversity is the real story. Blaming them for surviving would be one way of summarizing your argument, and it leads to a very different conclusion.
And the “no reason whatsoever” ignores the role that Jews played in many of these benighted communities over the past two millennia. They lent money which made them important in both muslim and Christian realms where this was forbidden of the faithful. In good times, everyone prospered. But in bad times, what could be more popular than eliminating the debts of the majority of the populace, and especially the ruling class. And the victims were so easily identified and targeted. The savagery directed at “Jewish Bankers” continues to this day, even though they are no longer such a prominent portion of the financial community, and there are no longer religious prohibitions that would prevent Christians from engaging in financial transactions.
BobStewartatHome (d2c7a4) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:47 pm@106. Ouch, Haiku.
Always stings when real world hurts intrude. I’ve personally appreciated your creativity. Will miss the cleverness. But yes, you reach a certain age and the futility falls into focus. Then wonder how it got to this point.
I blame Richard Nixon for crossing over and doing ‘Laugh-In’ and Walter Cronkite for crossing over and doing himself on the ‘Mary Tyler Moore Show.’ [If you’re under 45, Google both.] Gotta start somewhere. Besides, they’re both gone.
Best to you.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:48 pmwell we have a pint sized smod coming our way, which tends to focus our attention, although in truth it could be anywhere between kish’s neighborhood and southern georgia,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:49 pmThere was a good 3 years in the middle – 41-44 CE, the reign of Agrippa I. I think the Dead Sea Scrolls were deposited then. They were being put into geniza. That’s when tghey almost put away the book of Ezekiel.
It really let up a number of years after the Bar Cochba revolt. It happened like this: Hadrian took a fancy to Marcus Aurelius. So he arranged to adopt Antoninus Pius and Antoninus Pius adopted his nephew, Marcus Aurelius. And then Hadrian died about the year 141.
Antonius Pius – it took a few years – but he abolished the Hadrianic persecutions and set up, or dealt with the patriarchate. Nothing particular happened around 200 CE except thhat theer was hen a very friendly emperor. Septimus Severus. he was called Antoninus, because ALL the emperors were called Antoninus just like they were called Caesar and Augustus. The name Antoninus dropped away after a while.
Septimus Severus, who became Emperor about 193, came form the Carthage area, which means he spoke Phoenician which is close to Hebrew so he and Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi could send coded messages to each other by sending vegetables and other small objects. He sent Rabbi Yehuda gifts of gold. Rabbi Yehuda {Judah in English usually] did not want to take them but the emperor said his successors would take it back, so they needed it.
There was no hope for rebuilding the Temple at this time.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:51 pmthe persecutions of christians started up not long after that, it was more about perpetuation of power, although saul of tarsus saw it a little differently, If I read taylor caldwell’s account correctly,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:55 pmthe modern view is he and well as john was speaking of contemporary events, and not the future eschatology, a realistic reading of the prophets suggest that patterns of persecution are all too likely,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 6:59 pmActually, narciso, it seems more likely to visit your neighborhood than mine. Stay safe!
Although I still am in the danger zone, at the southern fringe of the Hurricane Warning area.
I have water and most other stuff, but needed bread for the weekend. Went to Publix, and discovered the shelves were so empty it looked like Venezuela.
Kishnevi (4cae8a) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:01 pmThey’re brief: but changed the course of national events, IMO, and gave us today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qRZvlZZ0DY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWrpvoJCuTc
“And that’s the way it is…”- Walter Cronkite, CBS News anchorman, nightly broadcast signoff.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:02 pmWas ropelight banned?
I notice he’s not here.
Where did he get off to?
Should I organize a search?
papertiger (82d7e8) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:03 pm@120.well we have a pint sized smod coming our way, which tends to focus our attention, although in truth it could be anywhere between kish’s neighborhood and southern georgia,
Stay safe, narciso.
“Somebody’s going to have a hurricane.” – Astronaut Clayton Stone [James Franciscus] “Marooned” 1969
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:10 pmthanks, for that,
so the data is unconclusive,
http://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/isis-recruits-more-educated-than-average-world-bank-study
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:15 pmRight. This is the most likely hypothesis.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:19 pmit’s a metaphysical spiritual explanation but it provides as good a reason as any,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:29 pmNo. It doesn’t.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:31 pmWhen did AD become CE? What’s CE, Christian Era? Did somebody change BC too? Why?
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:33 pmAnd it was changed, I can’t remember when, to not focus on a particular religion and culture.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:36 pmYear of the Lord, very doubleunplusgood, it is really striking the way the basis of western civilization has been hollowed out, of the foundation,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:38 pmIt’s used in archaeological and other science, narciso. It shouldn’t have an assumption built right in to the dating system. It doesn’t strike at the heart of western civilization. Christianity can still be studied like other past and present western religions.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:40 pmPlease do. I have a soft spot for ropelight. I really like the guy. And I miss him.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:44 pmIt wasn’t focused on a particular religion or culture. It was focused on the religion and culture that brought mankind (can I say mankind?) out of the darkness of paganism and tyranny into the light of God and freedom. It was a long, hard and bloody trip and I think Christianity deserves the recognition. Or was it some other “particular religion and culture” that accomplished the journey when I wasn’t looking? Beside, what the hell is a Common Era? Christian Era makes sense, but what is “common”? Is it still BC, Before Christ or has the mere mention of His name caused college kids to run for safe spaces?
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:46 pmseriously, his category error is extreme, I guess he’s some of nordic pagan,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:48 pmWhat assumption? And why not? Why would one not date before Christ and after Christ? It’s a lot less ambiguous than ‘common ere” which dates nothing and means nothing.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 7:51 pmBest article I’ve read on Mike Pence’s masterful debate performance:
At one point, I would have concurred with Patterico’s characterization of Mike Pence as being low-IQ (relative to other people who’ve been his position). Now, I am not so sure—not by a long shot! Pence, neocon stuff I disagree with aside, rocked on a performance basis.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:01 pmYou’ve just shown your bias and proved my point. This really doesn’t bear further comment.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:02 pmP.S. Jews are still waiting for their messiah.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:03 pmthey see 1984 as the how to manual,
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/hurricane-matthew-2016-clinton-trump-path-229200
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:08 pmlike strangelove’s salute, but she’s only the most important confidant that’s all,
http://dailycaller.com/2016/10/05/exclusive-huma-abedin-email-attacked-jewish-group/
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:12 pmBut I will make further comment.
The Greek and Roman periods and even Jewish culture were particularly informative of what western civilization became. For scientific purposes, I think it make sense to have, as much as possible, a neutral dating system. The CE/BCE thing was a compromise because so much had already been written in the AD/BC system.
Anyway, you can use either and still be understood, so carry on.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:22 pmwell there’s something about christianity that gets your goat, I guess you’re big on nietzche,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:26 pmI do like Nietzche (especially his thoughts on dealing with ambiguity), but I don’t think a scientifically used dating system should be based on any particularly religious or philosophical system he preferred either. I have some qualms about Christianity, but acknowledge its importance in western history and it is certainly not the worst large-scale religion ever (that would be Islam).
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:29 pm*particular
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:29 pmpray tell what is wrong with christianity,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:32 pmIt’s dysgenic. It’s a religion of slaves. It glorifies weakness. It preaches fundamental equality. It puts ideology over blood (shared genes).
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:34 pmthat is was the predominant faith in this country, and in the uk, during the empire, doesn’t counteract that notion,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:38 pmchesterton was right, if you believe in nothing, you eventually believe in anything,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:40 pm@77 Denver Guy
Is a former Jew anything like a former Marine?
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:40 pmturns out ropelight is too much of a generic product rather than a name for a search engine.
It’s like searching for someone named IPhone.
Our ropelight might be lost to the ages.
papertiger (82d7e8) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:43 pmhe really falls more in max blumenthal’s camp,
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/sep/25/gilad-atzmon-antisemitism-the-left
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:43 pmGiants won the wildcard. Woo hoo!
papertiger (82d7e8) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:45 pmmore details from the back of the book,
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/05/nsa-thief-worked-with-elite-hacker-squad.html
he’s not a kampiles or a pelton, but someone higher up,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:53 pmropelight’s last comment was in July. He showed no sign of being upset or stomping off.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:00 pmSo approving of what Christianity and it’s impact on Western Civilization and the development of the modern world shows my bias, but removing hitherto unobjectionable dating methods because of Chistophobia is okay and in no way bias nor bigoted nor does it try and minimize the gifts Christianity has given the world. It only “really doesn’t bear further comment” if the goal is to minimize the contributions of Christianity and those of Western culture it helped develop, up to and including the United States.
Seems to me BCE and CE are just Newspeak in an effort to eliminate references to Christ in history. After all if the State is Supreme what good is God? Another drop in the steady grip, drop, drip of defining deviancy down.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:02 pmI hope nothing happened to ropelight. He was interesting.
Rev. Hoagie® (785e38) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:03 pmNo, that’s completely fine. But the bias doesn’t belong in a scientific dating system for studying all historical cultures and religions.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:11 pm@90 Denver Goy
One strategic error of German Jews was probably giving up their guns somewhere between WWI and WWII.
But I’m not quite ready to go all the way and start blaming victims.
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:16 pmwell the irony was that law was passed to crack down on right and left paramilitaries, just the top of weimar progressivism.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:20 pm@162 Pinandpuller
Another could be declaring economic war on Germany in 1933.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:21 pmthat’s a darrell hammond facepalm from the producers, shirley you can’t be cereal.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:27 pm@147 Denver Guy
I don’t think a scientifically used dating system should be based on any particular religious or philosophical system
You mean like the Gregorian Calendar?
The whole reason behind the calendar was to keep Easter with the Spring Equinox.
You aren’t some kind of Star Date lobbyist are you?
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:36 pm@149 narciso
I’m sure that Churchill must have said that Christianity is the worst religion, except for all of the others.
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:40 pm@164 Denver Guy
Wow I did not know that German Jews declared economic war on Germany in 1933.
Jerry Clower said when LBJ declared war on poverty Marcel Ledbetter came out with his hands up and said, “I surrender!”
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:47 pmGermany was just coming trying to get out from under extreme economic devastation of the Great Depression exacerbated massively by the unreasonable Treaty of Versailles terms. How do you think they reacted to this provocation?
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:50 pmI sent him an email. Hopefully he will respond.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:50 pmMan shares 98% of genes with chimpanzees so I choose ideology, thank you.
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 9:57 pmlol
I can think of few things more convenient than an even-dayed week, particularly one that rolled into a standard month. Alas, the number of days in the year are odd.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 10:23 pm@169 Denver Guy
How do you think they reacted to this provocation?
From Wikipedia:
A higher percentage of German Jews fought in WWI than of any other ethnic, religious or political group in Germany; some 12,000 died for their country.
They had a heck of a veteran retirement program in those days, this I can tell you. All of those Iron Cross hoarding Jews.
Except for this guy-from Eric Abram Schulz:
A rare exception is the story of Emil Maurice. He served in WWI in a Bavarian unit. In the 1920s he became friends with Hitler and he rose up the ranks of the Nazi Party before and after they came to power in 1933. Then some senior SS members including Heinrich Himmler discovered that Maurice was part Jewish, and they sought his expulsion from the SS and Nazi Party. However, Hitler made Maurice an “Honorary Aryan” and Maurice continued in his post, survived the war and died in the 1970s.
Pinandpuller (27569f) — 10/5/2016 @ 10:26 pm@ 173 Pinandpuller
I’m sure that, like with other peoples, only small percentage of Jews were making decisions and setting agendas that contributed, to whatever extent, in whatever happened.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 10:43 pmDenver Guy (4750ec) — 10/5/2016 @ 8:22 pm
Well, the year 1 may very correspond to the first year that the Julian/Gregorian calendar went into effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proleptic_Julian_calendar
if the leap year stabilized with the year now called 4, then the first year that the current calendar was used was the year 1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar
On top of that, the perihelion of earth’s orbit is now very close to January 1, so it can be said that the current calendar is about as scientific as you can get.
The perihelion varies, but it is slowly advancing. It is now around January 3, but was on January 1 Greenwich time (just barely) as recently as 1997.
http://cococubed.asu.edu/data/perihelion_earth_1900-2100.dat
0098 perihelion 01jan 1997 23 16 1.436 UT 9.832674E-01
By the way, when they go before the year 1 CE, the historians do not have a year 0, but the astronomers do. And they both use the Julian and not the Gregorian calendar.
The CE/BCE thing was a compromise because so much had already been written in the AD/BC system.
Anyway, you can use either and still be understood, so carry on.
Sammy Finkelman (6e331b) — 10/6/2016 @ 7:09 amSammy Finkelman (6e331b) — 10/6/2016 @ 7:09 am
We’re stuck with numbering system, although it would be easier to understand a lot of history if we started 750 years earlier or so.
As I said, the numbering system is actually very appropriate in one way, since the earliest year you can extend backwards the current cycle of leap years, and have exact dates that are like our current calendar, is the year 1. (if you ignore the 10,11, and 13 day differences between the Julian and tghe gregorian calendars)
Sammy Finkelman (6e331b) — 10/6/2016 @ 7:13 amIt’s mostly a Jewish thing. Historically, Jews wanting to distinguish between the Christian Calendar and the Jewish calendar. In more recent times, Jewish academics and science fiction writers with a smattering of atheists and miscellaneous flakes.
nk (dbc370) — 10/6/2016 @ 7:39 am> The interruptions of my preferred candidate show confidence and dominance. The interruptions of your preferred candidate are rude and boorish.
Not at all! Both Trump and Kaine were rude and boorish.
aphrael (a0291d) — 10/6/2016 @ 8:49 amPatterico, at 69:
> maybe you conclude that the only reason people would say the things I say is to falsely signal virtue to others.
I’ve always seen some of the same reasoning in complaints about “political correctness” — there’s always seemed to me to be a rhetorical implication that the people who behave in so-called ‘politically correct’ ways are doing so not because they believe it’s the right thing to do, but to curry favor with the enforcers.
aphrael (a0291d) — 10/6/2016 @ 8:49 amDenver Guy, at 71:
> thank G-d we have the secret ballot.
Agreed.
Honestly, this is one of the things that bothers me about widespread absentee voting and about the new law allowing ballot selfies: both somewhat undermine the *guarantee* of secrecy of the ballot. How hard would it be for a culture to develop in which it’s expected that you show people how you voted, and you can be ostracized for not doing so?
aphrael (a0291d) — 10/6/2016 @ 8:51 amPatterico, at 101: I’m baffled. The ‘middlemen are resented and therefore badly treated’ thing shows up over and over again – korean and chinese americans in central LA in the 80s and 90s, lebanese christians throughout the maghreb, chinese in indochina, malaysia, and indonesia … how hard do you have to look before you can see the pattern staring you in your face?
aphrael (a0291d) — 10/6/2016 @ 8:52 amColonel Haiku, at 106:
Yikes, man, that’s terrible. :{ My condolonces on your – and your neighbor’s – loss.
aphrael (a0291d) — 10/6/2016 @ 8:53 am(to be clear about my comment in 181, since on reflection it looks unclear: my ‘how hard do you have to look’ isn’t directed at *Patterico*; it’s in agreement with Patterico in reference to Dystopia Max and Denver Guy).
aphrael (a0291d) — 10/6/2016 @ 8:54 amInteresting fact; at midnight on Dec 31th the brightest star (apparent brightness, not absolute brightness)Sirius reaches it’s upper culmination, the highest point in the night sky.
So even the Julian and Gregorian calendars start and end are defined by a “star date”.
papertiger (82d7e8) — 10/6/2016 @ 9:45 amWhy is that? Why is the highest point of all stars not at the solstice? Is it that then the North Pole is pointing toward Sirius? But it always points toward ear Polaris. don’t have a good 3-dimensional idea here.
Sammy Finkelman (6e331b) — 10/6/2016 @ 9:50 ampapertiger (82d7e8) — 10/6/2016 @ 9:45 am
No, only the Gregorian.
The Julian calendar is about two weeks behind the Gregorian and doesn’t have January 1 till January 14, and January 1, even in the Gregorian, is now really more like December 31 in the year 1900, because we have gone 116 years without skipping a leap year.
We’re very close now to one day behind. It takes 128 years I think for the calendar to have a whole extra day, or to put it another, fall one day behind the same point in the year.
Sammy Finkelman (6e331b) — 10/6/2016 @ 9:56 am@186: even in the Gregorian, is now really more like December 31 in the year 1900, because we have gone 116 years without skipping a leap year.
Huh? 2000 was supposed to be a leap year, and so was 1600.
Leap years are every four years, except century years not divisible by 400. Gregorian won’t need a day’s adjustment until 4000-something.
365 days per year * 400 years, plus 97 leap days, gives 146,097 calendar days. That’s an average year of 365.2425. The actual solar year is 365.242181. So Gregorian calendar is off by (rounding up) 0.0004 days per year, so it will take 2500 years to be off by 1 day. So some time in the 4000s.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 10/6/2016 @ 10:33 amSince the original theme of this post was interruptions, why not follow this down the gopher hole of disturbing tangential trivia: there is a rather odd monograph about mischlinge troops in the Germany military during the Second World War called “Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers.”
I don’t remember if Emil Maurice is mentioned in it, but I believe Erhard Milch and Werner Goldberg were. The first was a Luftwaffe Field Marshal; the latter was featured on recruitment posters as “the Ideal German soldier.”
Like I said, it’s a strange, but morbidly fascinating book in its own way.
JP (f1742c) — 10/6/2016 @ 12:24 pmThe press has still failed to ask if Trump Steaks are seasoned with Adolf’s Meat Tenderizer.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/6/2016 @ 1:51 pmpostscript to #189: “Eat me!” – , cake float decoration, ‘Animal House’ 1978
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/6/2016 @ 1:53 pm187. Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 10/6/2016 @ 10:33 am
No, I said that right. We didn’t skip a leap year, like the Gregorian calendar did in the years 1700, 1800 and 1900.
In effect, we’ve been on the Julian calendar since March 1, 1900.
That’s why the calendar algothm is so simple, and why DOS stops at the year 2100. (actually it gets 2100 right, and there is no February 29, at least in Windows. There are only 128 possible years anyway so it makes sense if you start at 1980 to stop there.
Although a Windows XP laptop computer once told me it was 1601, sp maybe it is possible to show that.
Sammy Finkelman (6e331b) — 10/6/2016 @ 2:46 pmThank you for the bans, Patrick. As Chuck B says, you are doing us a service, and I appreciate it. But the election has seemed to release a tsunami of trolls…they make happyfeet seem reasonable.
Patricia (5fc097) — 10/6/2016 @ 3:09 pm@192– Keep in mind the caliber of the electorate.
Trump still has a chance to win the Hanging Chads State. With a cat 4 hurricane packing 140 mph winds, storm surges and 12-plus foot waves zeroing on the coastline, Florida’s governor had to repeat over and over to residents: DO NOT go surfing.
“Wipe Out” – The Surfaris, 1963
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/6/2016 @ 4:24 pm@Sammy:In effect, we’ve been on the Julian calendar since March 1, 1900.
No, we have not. The Gregorian calendar has 1600 and 2000 as leap years. The Gregorian calendar skips 3 out of 4 century years. On purpose. 2000 as a leap year is not a mistake, or a reversion to Julian. The Gregorian calendar was designed so from the beginning, and I worked the math out for you.
Take a minute to look it up. 2000 is a leap year in both Julian and Gregorian. We’re not on the Julian calendar and not off by a day.
The Gregorian reform modified the Julian calendar’s scheme of leap years as follows:
Every year that is exactly divisible by four is a leap year, except for years that are exactly divisible by 100, but these centurial years are leap years if they are exactly divisible by 400. For example, the years 1700, 1800, and 1900 are not leap years, but the years 1600 and 2000 are.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/6/2016 @ 6:37 pm