Breaking October Surprise: New York Times Obtains Trump Tax Records
The October surprise came early this year, didn’t it? The headline at the New York Times reads: “Trump Tax Records Obtained by The Times Reveal He Could Have Avoided Paying Taxes for Nearly Two Decades.”
Donald J. Trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995 income tax returns, a tax deduction so substantial it could have allowed him to legally avoid paying any federal income taxes for up to 18 years, records obtained by The New York Times show.
The 1995 tax records, never before disclosed, reveal the extraordinary tax benefits that Mr. Trump, the Republican presidential nominee, derived from the financial wreckage he left behind in the early 1990s through mismanagement of three Atlantic City casinos, his ill-fated foray into the airline business and his ill-timed purchase of the Plaza Hotel in Manhattan.
Tax experts hired by The Times to analyze Mr. Trump’s 1995 records said that tax rules especially advantageous to wealthy filers would have allowed Mr. Trump to use his $916 million loss to cancel out an equivalent amount of taxable income over an 18-year period.
According to the accountant who prepared them, they look legit:
On Wednesday, The Times presented the tax documents to Jack Mitnick, a lawyer and certified public accountant who handled Mr. Trump’s tax matters for more than 30 years, until 1996. Mr. Mitnick was listed as the preparer on the New Jersey tax form.
Mr. Mitnick, 80, now semiretired and living in Florida, said that while he no longer had access to Mr. Trump’s original returns, the documents appeared to be authentic copies of portions of Mr. Trump’s 1995 tax returns. Mr. Mitnick said the signature on the tax preparer line of the New Jersey tax form was his, and he readily explained an obvious anomaly in the way especially large numbers appeared on the New York tax document.
A flaw in the tax software program he used at the time prevented him from being able to print a nine-figure loss on Mr. Trump’s New York return, he said. So, for example, the loss of “-915,729,293” on Line 18 of the return printed out as “5,729,293.” As a result, Mr. Mitnick recalled, he had to use his typewriter to manually add the “-91,” thus explaining why the first two digits appeared to be in a different font and were slightly misaligned from the following seven digits.
“This is legit,” he said, stabbing a finger into the document.
My guess: Hillary Clinton found out about this before the debate. Regarding the timing, the story says only that the Times obtained the records “last month.” If Hillary was tipped off, that could explain her comment at the debate speculating that the records, if revealed, would show that Trump had paid no income taxes for several years — an accusation that Trump seemed to confirm when he replied: “That makes me smart.”
This is a legitimate issue, and this story will increase the pressure on Trump to release the actual returns. The cynic in me suspects, however, that we won’t find out what he’s hiding until it’s too late.
UPDATE: Flashback:
The hedge fund guys (gals) have to pay higher taxes ASAP. They are paying practically nothing. We must reduce taxes for the middle class!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) September 5, 2015
[Cross-posted at RedState.]
I can’t wait to see what distraction he comes up with to divert attention from this story.
Patterico (bcf524) — 10/1/2016 @ 8:44 pmThis is so much more distracting than Bengazi! (LOL)
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 10/1/2016 @ 8:54 pmmaybe we can get susan mcdougal to confess now, shirley you can’t be serious,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/1/2016 @ 8:59 pmI wonder if these were “obtained” legally?
LBascom (2f3828) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:11 pmI don’t get it… if the deduction is allowable, why not take it? What’s the problem?
Alternate headline: guy takes perfectly legal tax deduction.
On the other hand… it it turns out that he was raking in millions of dollars from foreign governments while he was SecState, now that’d be real news!
My guess; the leaker is Trump, playing some angle or another. For example, showing collusion between the NYT and Clinton, then a big “Gotcha” if the records are fakes. I don’t have a high opinion of Trump’s IQ, but I do thinks he’s oft been adroit at playing the media, so might be here too.
Arizona CJ (b4cd1f) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:12 pmHe can still spin this to at least a “so what”. The Chuck Thin still has a tape or transcript about the editorial board meeting, which might be far more damaging with its potential to dispirit the base.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:12 pmI can’t wait to see what distraction he comes up with to divert attention from this story.
Democrats and NeverTrumps think alike.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:14 pmThere’s nothing to get.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:17 pm4 I wonder if these were “obtained” legally?
Seems unlikely. The accountant shouldn’t even be commenting on them without permission from Trump.
James B. Shearer (0dbf28) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:18 pmif it came from trump tower, you’ve been john miller’d, who would know to pull a return for that far back,
meanwhile carlos slims just doesn’t know what do with the awlaki wannabe, whose mosque obama visited earlier this year, and they were supremely disinterested in the comments about doc brown supporters,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:19 pmA loss is not really a “tax deduction”. A loss is where expenses exceeded income.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:21 pmwell there is that, but why quibble with terms if you’re on the attack,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:23 pmIf Trump hasn’t been charged with tax evasion, WTF are you ranting about, Patterico? All the horsesh*t that the Democrat candidate has pulled and escaped prosecution on – stuff that I believe you, with your legal background, KNOW she should’ve been prosecuted for. Why this? She could’ve easily been charged with spoliation of evidence on the destroyed emails alone, for krissakes.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:27 pmI call BULLSH*T.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:31 pmColonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:27 pm
Some of the NeverTrumps will actually think this is relevant, including ones who keep ranting about how unintelligent Trumpers are.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:31 pmeven in the voluminous benghazi report, we didn’t have an actual delineation of what went wrong in libya, like here, one of the reasons is many of the participants were a party to some of the deliberations,
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmfaff/119/119.pdf
narciso (d1f714) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:33 pmfor comparison’s sake carlos slim lost 23 million this year, which is a ‘benefit’ of 10 million, clearly they should declare bankruptcy and give it to an oligarch who can manage it better, say the one who funded denton’s defense,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:43 pmand they’ve lost 75% of their value since 2004,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/1/2016 @ 9:44 pmIt was a huge loss.
From it, he made the greatest personal financial comeback in history.
He is allowed to carry his losses forward against future income per the laws of the United States.
P.S. He could have declared personal bankruptcy, but he did not.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/1/2016 @ 10:36 pmYeah, exactly. Donald Trump had a well-known business loss so great he wrote a book about it and sat through several interviews about it. As a result of this loss, he carried forward his losses on his income taxes, as any sane person would.
One almost thinks Patterico is a little obsessed with his own vendetta.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/1/2016 @ 10:39 pmThis is just like the “tax breaks” Big Oil gets!
Pinandpuller (3038fc) — 10/1/2016 @ 10:52 pmThe IRS rides to the rescue yet again!
Craig Mc (c8ba9d) — 10/1/2016 @ 11:16 pmI despise Trump, but
1) this is despicable, and shows that the IRS is now nothing but a pack of partisan political stooges.
2) The laws allow him to take this kid of carry-forward deductions.
3) I would like to see the hands of everyone who thinks he should have foregone legal tax benefits.
3a) How many have you passed up?
I agree with the most fervent Trumpist here, and say SHAME.
And I am disappointed with our host’s suggestion that Trump has done ANYTHING wrong here.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/1/2016 @ 11:37 pm*this kind
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/1/2016 @ 11:37 pmI can’t wait to see what distraction he comes up with to divert attention from this story.
HIDE IT?! EFF THAT. This is a miscalculation of the first order by the Democrats.
If I were Trump I would make a federal case out of it, and LOUDLY charge the IRS, and the President himself with willful and felonious conduct.
As far as releasing the rest of his returns, he should say NO. And then assert that his returns contain information on his business partners and he has no wish to see them harassed by the same Pieces of sh1t that broke the seal on his return.
Then demand a special prosecutor.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/1/2016 @ 11:42 pmAt least that is what an intelligent person would do; one of the reasons they didn’t try to pull this crap on Romney. Trump may well find a suboptimum path.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/1/2016 @ 11:44 pmA loss is not really a “tax deduction”. A loss is where expenses exceeded income.
The loss becomes a carry-forward net operating loss deduction for future years. All quite legal. Pretty sure Apple did the same thing back in the 90’s.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/1/2016 @ 11:47 pmThis is just like the “tax breaks” Big Oil gets!
This is just what the New York Times does with IT’S tax losses.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:05 am@28 Kevin M
I hope that I didn’t need a /s tag on my comment
If I had written a post like this, however, I’d be expecting a random drug test first thing Monday morning.
Pinandpuller (d78c07) — 10/2/2016 @ 1:22 amThis may just be crazy talk but I wonder if Harry Reid’s exercise accident had anything to do with him slandering fellow Mormon Mitt Romney on the Senate floor over his tax records.
LDS used to have people called Avenging Angels to TCB.
Pinandpuller (d78c07) — 10/2/2016 @ 1:45 amSo much for Machado Fats.
Machado who?
papertiger (82d7e8) — 10/2/2016 @ 1:52 am“…a tax deduction so substantial it could have allowed him to legally avoid paying any federal income taxes for up to…”
One very important operative word in this sentence everyone needs to recognize.. Can you figure out what word it is?
The word “LEGALLY.”
How many ILLEGAL things has HRC done? Via corruption, incompetence, or hubris, HRC has not only caused the DEATHS of NUMEROUS HUMAN BEINGS, but she has HARMED OUR ENTIRE NATION by putting America’s TOP SECRET information in the hands of our ENEMIES!
If the Left is trying to compare Trump & HC, & thinks that HC comes out on top, their priorities are seriously flawed.
Perfectly LEGAL Tax Laws of the United States vs HUMAN DEATH & Compromising OUR COUNTRY’s SECURITY. There is no equivalency, no comparison to be made about who’s past is more deplorable.
If people are offended about a bizman’s legal rights, then CHANGE THE LAWS. But is does not make that man especially noble or patriotic (or intelligent) to voluntarily donate money to the IRS that THEY SAY you don’t owe. Would you?
jim mayer (ccf68e) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:00 amthis is really petty stuff
Mr. Trump conducts his business legally
the stinkypig the nevertrumpers wanna do all up in it?
she’s an ivy league trash criminal skank of the first order
i know it
you know it
and yes the new york times knows it too
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 3:32 amhey, what happened to stinkypig’s middle-class tax cut?
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 3:55 amAn anonymous source mailing illegally obtained copies of tax returns from three states stinks of DNC or Clinton involvement. I would not be surprised if they already had all of Trump’s state and federal tax returns in order to strategically leak to the media throughout October. After all, the IRS and NY/CT/NJ tax bureaucracies have become thoroughly weaponized by the Democrats.
David (6f3506) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:03 am#nevertrump claims to be ‘Constitutional Conservatives’ whatever the practical effect of handing HRC the Presidency-
Harsanyi:
DNF (ffe548) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:20 am23. Thank you.
DNF (ffe548) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:21 am#nevertrump will have little choice but to become constituents of the Democratic Party.
It’s the party that protects its apparatus.
DNF (ffe548) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:25 amAnd a significant tenace for an audit of CGI and the Clinton Foundation and subsidiaries is gone.
This is something to cheer about?
DNF (ffe548) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:29 amAnother nothingburger with bile and a side order of spite.
gbear (70736b) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:39 am18 years – pretty close to the 20 year carryforward provision of section 172 of the IRC
joe (93323e) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:41 am# 9 & 4
Its a criminal offense for the cpa to make any comment without permission or without a court order. section 7216 IRC US title 26
joe (93323e) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:46 am19
From the summary description of the book, it would seem that Trump had substantial amount of the debt renegotiated which typically would have resulted in cancellation of debt income under section 108 which would have offset a large portion of the operating loss resulting in a much smaller Net operating loss (NOL).
joe (93323e) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:56 ami wonder if harvardtrash heidi ever suggests to her clients that they should take losses for tax planning purposes
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:41 amDonald ducked taxes?
It’s not a surprise to anyone who knew about his bankruptcies and the deductibility of net operating loss. That would include me. I said eight months ago that the reason he does not want to release his tax returns is because they would show negative taxable income. Not good optics for the “self-made billionaire”in the eyes of National Inquirer readers.
nk (9faaca) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:48 amDonald J. Trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995 income tax returns, a tax deduction so substantial it could have allowed him to legally avoid paying any federal income taxes for up to 18 years, records obtained by The New York Times show.
18 years – pretty close to the 20 year carryforward provision of section 172 of the IRC
joe (93323e) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:41 am
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:50 amUS title 26 section 7216 applies to anyone that discloses confidential tax information without authorization – That statute applies to anyone and everyone along the whole chain of people disclosing such info. Even to this website.
Guess who is most likely to get prosecuted.
The original leaker most likely an IRS Agent?
The CPA who confirmed the accuracy of the return?
The NYT?
The subsequent parties discussing the return?
This website?
Answer – No one since it is a federal crime – and the current DOJ wont let it happen.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:57 amThough the state board of public accountancy may discipline the CPA since most state boards have rules similar to the federal statute.
23 If I were Trump I would make a federal case out of it, and LOUDLY charge the IRS, and the President himself with willful and felonious conduct.
What was published was the front page of three state returns (NY, NJ, CT) so it is unclear why you blaming the IRS. Probably the likeliest source is an employee of his current accountants.
James B. Shearer (0dbf28) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:03 amA lawyer is a gentleman who rescues your estate from your enemies and keeps it for himself.
mg (31009b) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:05 amLord Brougham
In order to lose 900 mil you first have to earn it. And you pay taxes on it as you earn it. Do you think he, alone, should pay taxes twice as he earns it back?
RokShox (b05160) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:42 amThe link to the copies of the three state returns NY, CT & NJ is definitely a violation of section 7216 – but who is going to prosecute the NYT – certainly not the DOJ since it is a Dem operative and a “legitimate” news organization, ala exempt from the soon to be overturned CU holding.
As a prior commentator stated, the leak most likely came from a former employee of the CPA. You will notice the signiture line had a copy of the “sign here” sticker that is usually placed on documents indicating where to sign. The stickers are typically removed after signing. The release was of 3 separate state tax returns, so the three state tax agencies would have to coordinate the separate releases of the tax return. The signature date on the NJ return was 10/15/96 which was the extended due date of the return. Prior to electronic filing of returns, it was common for clients to come into the office to sign the return and have the CPA make a trip to the post office to mail several client returns – (at least when returns are filed on or near the deadline). In summary the, release was almost definitely a former employee of the CPA firm.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:48 amTrump got a homeowner’s exemption for his Manhattan condo. It’s income-based — under $250K? He likely had to prove his “poverty”with income tax returns and state returns would be as good evidence as federal. So that’s a likely source also.
And since no federal tax return information has been revealed, Joe’s citation of federal laws is noncupatory (a word invented by Jack Vance to describe what comes out of a horse’s rear).
And since there’s a First Amendment thread, too, I’ll give all y’all another hint about whether the NYT or Patterico can publish this information: The Pentagon Papers Case.
nk (9faaca) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:03 amIs this where #NeverTrump wants to go, really? Criticizing people who obey tax law?
“The legal right of an individual to decrease the amount of what would otherwise be his taxes or altogether avoid them, by means which the law permits, cannot be doubted.”
“Anyone may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one’s taxes.”
Hands up everyone here who seeks to maximize their tax payments by refusing legal deductions.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:06 amAnother observation
Line 15 of the NY return is for other income – that is the line where other items are reported, including but not limited to a net operating loss carryover. If the NOL was generated in 1995, that loss would be reported on another line of the return, most likely line 11. Does anyone have any information was to when he had his losses with the casinos?
A second observation, it would appear that the 1995 return had $4.3m NOL plus the prior year NOL carryover of the $909M
Third observation – Since he renegotiated debt, I would have expected some debt relief that would have generated cancellation of debt income. However there was a quirk in the tax code that existed from 1982 (Bankruptcy act of 1981 and the S corp revision act of 1982) through approx 1994 or 1995 when congress amended 108, (dont have time to check the date) which allowed a basis increase in an S corp for debt forgiveness allowing for suspended losses from basis limitations to be deducted without the debt forgiveness from flowing through to the shareholder. ( There was a SC opinion by Thomas that came out circa 1994-1995 directly on point).
In summary on this point, the $909m NOL was generated in a year prior to 1995 and some likelihood of the NOL being generated from losses inside an S Corporation circa 1990-1994.(the latter being an educated quess based on other similarly situated clients – except for the size of the NOL)
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:10 amIt’s the lies and the puffery. About his bankruptcies; about his wealth; about the reason he is not releasing his returns.
nk (9faaca) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:11 am@nk:It’s the lies and the puffery.
And he is running against a criminal. If you don’t approve of lies and puffery, then your stance really makes little sense.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:14 am#52 – NK T
Even though the returns released are state returns, It is absolutely a violation of 7216 – period no if ands or buts.
A little hint – all three returns starting point for determining state taxable income is federal income. Everyone of the state returns contain federal tax return information.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:16 amI don’t blame #NeverTrump for their contempt for Trump. I have plenty of contempt for Trump.
What I blame #NeverTrump for is jumping on the progressive bandwagon every time they get a hit on Trump, even when it means sacrificing the conservative principles they are supposedly attached to.
Here is an excellent example. The tax laws are written to allow this and have been for decades. It’s the Left that accusing political opponents of being hoarders and wreckers when they use the laws that the Left helped write and use themselves; the Left and #NeverTrump.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:17 amThe times breached that precedent with the tsp and swift revelations, also deuce Martinez.
narciso (d1f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:19 amOh yeah, and as for Trump’s statement on the hedge fund people and their taxation. Hands up everyone who votes for candidates who advocate removing tax breaks that you personally use, like say the mortgage interest deduction or the child care tax credit.
There may be a few of you, but the fact is you are the same as Trump (and Hillary) in this regard, but we’re just talking about price now.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:21 amPretty much every politician and voter classifies tax breaks into worthy supports of the middle class and evil “loopholes”. Hillary of course, is worse on this issue.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:23 am@ Gabriel Hanna, #56:
Great. Two criminals running against each other. Just what America needs.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:26 am52Trump got a homeowner’s exemption for his Manhattan condo. It’s income-based — under $250K? …
The current limit is $500K. It used to be unlimited and it was up to New York City to remove you from the program if you no longer qualified when the limit was introduced.
James B. Shearer (0dbf28) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:28 amCompare and contrast Patterico on Romney’s taxes back in 2012. He certainly did not criticize Romney for avoiding taxes.
If principle is so important to #NeverTrump that they can’t support Trump, fine, but then I’m puzzled why those important principles get abandoned when they criticize Trump.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:31 am@Demosthenes:Two criminals running against each other.
I can tell you what laws Hillary broke. Can you explain which ones Trump broke?
No, I thought not.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:32 amTrump’s dishonesty about his records probably cost the GOP having a decent nominee, and therefore the White House.
I’m sure Trump’s Defense Force just plain doesn’t care.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:33 am60. Last sentence was priceless, simply priceless. Ol’ Pochahontas probably had a few of these from her house flipping days; in that matchup we would here not a peep.
urbanleftbehind (847a06) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:34 am@Dustin:Trump’s dishonesty about his records probably cost the GOP having a decent nominee
And Romney’s disclosure of his tax returns got the GOP what?
As I linked above, this is the same attack made on Romney, and it is one the Clintons are much more vulnerable on.
But #NeverTrump gotta #NeverTrump even if it means adopting progressive axioms of tax fairness to do it.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:37 amSlow Joe Biden got a big applause line at the 2012 Democrat Convention when he said, “Osama Bin Laden is Dead, and GMC is Alive!”
Well whoopty doo! Could the tax loss carryforward that GMC had after its near death experience, cratering of the federal bankruptcy laws, and gubmint bailout have had anything to do with its relative financial health in 2012? Ya think? I do.
Of course if you are part of that Hillary voting demographic that pays no income tax because your absolute income is low, well you never heard of a tax loss carryforward.
Skeptical Voter (1d5c8b) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:38 amNo, probably not.
Saint Ted Cruz’s wife is, no doubt, against this, and she would have—as a competent professional—advised her clients to make voluntary penance payments to the IRS, to help them properly self-flagellate for their business losses. Guys who are government-salaried lawyers and have an Amazon affiliate link as their extracurricular entrepreneurial business totally understand the risks of the free market on an experiential gut level, and would do this themselves if they suffered massive business losses, you can rest assured. It’s the conservative thing to do. To hell with their self-interests or that of their families!
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:40 amIt appears that about a month ago, Dean Baquet said the NYT would be willing to pay the price for any illegality in releasing Trump tax info. Interestingly, the tax information released last night was received by a NYT reporter at around the same time Baquet made the comments.
Dana (995455) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:40 am@Dana:It appears that about a month ago, Dean Baquet said the NYT would be willing to pay the price for any illegality in releasing Trump tax info.
Under a Hillary administration, expect this to happen to every political opponent. Except they’ll see to it there are no legal consequences for their friends in the media, while enforcing it to the hilt on Fox News and conservative bloggers. Like what happened to Cindy Archer and Club for Growth in Wisconsin, politics pursued by lawfare with the aid of a compliant media.
Trump is not illegally obtaining information about Hillary and passing it to the press, that then runs with it.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:44 am#50
In general – your statement is correct. However as I mentioned in #54, there was a period of time (1982 though 1993-1995ish) where you could have debt forgiveness in an S corporation that would not be taxable income to the shareholder yet create basis that would allow suspended losses due to basis limitations to be freed up and deducted. See Gitlitz v comm US 99-1295.
His NOL appears to have been resulting from the Casinos collapsing in the early 1990’s. Does anyone have info on when the Casino projects were started. If started post 1986, it would be unlikely that this S corp exception would apply since it became rare that commercial real estate was operated by an S corporation after 1986.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:45 am@ Gabriel Hanna, #65:
It is, of course, so much easier to debate an opponent when you try to shut down debate before it begins. It’s the coward’s way out, but then, that’s why it’s easier.
Where to start? The housing discrimination? The violations of tax law? The fraud that was Trump University? Oh, but I’m sure you have explanations for all those.
Please keep in mind that I am not disagreeing with you about Hillary Clinton. She is most definitely a criminal, and therefore unfit to be President of the United States. It is you who have decided to adopt an untenable position with respect to the criminality of Donald Trump.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. A vote for either one of them is a vote against America. But then, you don’t have a problem being un-American, do you, Gabe?
Demosthenes (09f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:49 amAlso, do you consider this a legitimate issue? Kvetch once for yes and twice for no:
https://twitter.com/Night_0f_Fire/status/782327892676059136
The real Sam Hyde is also pretty good at cutting to the chase, maybe you should follow him.
Dystopia Max (76803a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:49 amRereading those old threads on Romney’s taxes is enlightening. Here’s that notorious pro-Trump troll Beldar at 53:
“Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is not tax evasion; rather, it’s a legal and rational exercise of self-interest…”
“The real problem, of course, is the commonly shared sense of many Americans that there are special rules and loopholes that are deliberately obscured and preferentially available to some people, but not others. The solution to that problem is to dramatically rationalize and simplify the entire business.”
I do not accuse Beldar of singing a different tune here when it’s Trump, he hasn’t said anything on it yet. (And of course the “notorious pro-Trump troll” bit is irony since Beldar is none of those three things.) But if you are looking for the principled, conservative stance I think he nailed it here.
Ask yourselves, #NeverTrump, how far you are departing from it in piling on with this attack. Demosthenes, for example, called Trump a “criminal”. Now he didn’t say what “crime” he had in mind but until he clarifies I think it not unfair to presume he is talking about tax avoidance, which of course is only a crime to the Left, and only when their political opponents or Two-Minutes-Hate figures in engage in it.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:51 amTrump is not illegally obtaining information about Hillary and passing it to the press, that then runs with it.
Careful here, somebody illegally obtained and leaked a bunch of DNC emails. Probably not Trump personally but I also doubt Clinton was personally responsible for leaking Trump’s taxes.
James B. Shearer (0dbf28) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:52 amTrump’s dishonesty about his records probably cost the GOP having a decent nominee, and therefore the White House.
Dustin, Trump’s dishonesty notwithstanding, the GOP allowed Trump to happen. This is who they wanted. This is who they are. I will never lose sight of that.
Dana (995455) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:57 amThe upper management among ISIS must be sitting back laughing about how stoopid infidel Americans are debating someone’s 1995 tax returns as the election sits in the balance.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:57 amAhmed probably just turned to Ahmad and asked, “Don’t they realize we plan to blow up their skyscrapers and cut their heads off?“
It’s a new political reality, Dana. Ethnic politics can’t just be used against one group as it drifts into minority status, without it taking on an important weight within that teetoring majority.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:58 am“Where to start? The housing discrimination?”
His father and his (mostly Jewish) tenants put him up to it, he was never charged because the laws themselves were never serious, and he moved into high-dollar de facto discriminatory housing afterward (or, he restructured his asset profile to fit the law and his tenants’ wishes more efficiently.)
The law means what the bureaucrats and enforcers says it means! If you want it to mean something good for you and your posterity, vote Trump!
“The violations of tax law?”
Citation needed.
“The fraud that was Trump University?”
Everything about it indicates that the willful and material portions of the scam originated outside of the Trump Organization:
http://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-reed-s-real-estate-investment-blog/114332355-media-still-not-quite-getting-the-whole-story-of-trump-unviersity
“Oh, but I’m sure you have explanations for all those.”
The best, since your criticisms are all fundamentally emotive, and thus about avoiding relevant details and sensible investigations.
“Please keep in mind that I am not disagreeing with you about Hillary Clinton. She is most definitely a criminal, and therefore unfit to be President of the United States. It is you who have decided to adopt an untenable position with respect to the criminality of Donald Trump.”
Nah, you’re just an idiot who can’t do his homework properly.
“I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. A vote for either one of them is a vote against America. But then, you don’t have a problem being un-American, do you, Gabe?”
Leave the definition of America to wiser men than you.
Dystopia Max (76803a) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:58 amTruer words.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:59 am@Demosthenes:The violations of tax law?
Name one.
The fraud that was Trump University?
Snake oil, unethical but no more and no less so than “Rich Dad Poor Dad” or Suze Ormond or anything else pitched on Oprah or Dr Oz. Whether it was fraud or not I am not qualified to say. Definitely snake oil, no disagreement here. I do not think criminal charges are justified.
The housing discrimination?
It was not a criminal matter. It is hard to figure out what exactly it is Trump is supposed to have done wrong, because “discrimination” is whatever the government says it is.
Again, #NeverTrump prefers to ditch conservative principles to get a dig in on Trump.
But then, you don’t have a problem being un-American, do you, Gabe?
Right, that’s me, a hater of America because I have come to a different calculation of what the risks are here. Why don’t I just move to Russia?
Yeah, that’s some fine conservatism and freedom-lovin’ right there.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:00 am@Shearer:Careful here, somebody illegally obtained and leaked a bunch of DNC emails.
Qui bono? Bernie supporters most likely.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:01 amJoe,
I appreciate your contribution. The WaPo did a reasonably complete post mortem on Mr. 47%’s foray as a Master Loser in Atlantic City. The exact closing dates on each of his egregious errors is not given but the information you seek is provided.
Rick Ballard (1aa129) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:04 am@ Gabriel Hanna, #76:
Which is, as you noted, not a crime. If I could legitimately take millions in deductions, then I would, so I’m certainly not going to criticize Trump for doing the same thing if he can. What I can criticize him for is using his foundation in a way that violates the tax code. You may want to familiarize yourself with David Fahrenthold’s ongoing investigation into the Trump Foundation. What he has uncovered that isn’t illegal, still ranges from shady to unethical.
And yes, before you retort with “But the Clinton Foundation!!!11!!!1!!eleventy!1!!!”…I know. I’m on board with pretty much any criticism of Hillary Clinton that you want to make. And I don’t deny that her activity with the Clinton Foundation is objectively worse, precisely because she was in a position of public trust and abused it for personal gain. But then, Trump’s never held a position of public trust, has he? If your main argument in favor of Trump is that unlike his opponent, he hasn’t committed certain crimes — while ignoring that he has frankly never been in a position to commit them — then it’s not an argument in favor of Trump. The extensive record of his personal and corporate behavior leaves me little doubt that he’ll do whatever he thinks he can get away with.
As will she, yes, I know. But again, that’s not an argument in favor of him.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:07 am@Demosthenes:What I can criticize him for is using his foundation in a way that violates the tax code. You may want to familiarize yourself with it…
I’m comfortable taking your word for it.
You and I are in agreement on what kind of person Trump is and what kind of person Clinton is.
Where we disagree, is that I think Clinton is worse for the country than Trump is and so I think putting in Trump is the less risky move.
And it’s fine you disagree, but maybe don’t be so quick to call me unAmerican over it.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:11 am@ Dystopia Max, #81:
Handwave away, you little anti-Semitic man. Alt-righters don’t impress me.
@ Gabriel Hanna, #83:
Come to think of it, why don’t you? You seem to appreciate political strongmen. They’ve got one of the best over there.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:12 am@Demosthenes:Come to think of it, why don’t you? You seem to appreciate political strongmen.
I am going to let this pass, because I am assuming you cross-posted my #87.
You have no justification whatever for this slur. Trump is not a strongman. I have expressed no appreciation for him, rather I have criticized him. I have certainly expressed none for Putin or any other you may have had in mind.
My position is merely that Trump is the flawed, but only plausible, defense against a much worse person who really will govern as a strongman, aided and abetted by a compliant press and civil service, who will use and has used lawfare against political opponents.
Calling people unAmerican because they disagree with you on politics is itself unAmerican.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:16 am@ Gabriel Hanna, #87:
Don’t vote for a cronyist liberal for president, and I won’t be so quick to stick you with the un-American label. But if you do vote for one of them…either one…then you deserve it. This isn’t a Treehouse of Horror episode, this is real life. And “I voted for Kodos” is not a legitimate defense; it only works as a punchline.
Demosthenes (09f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:17 am“Handwave away, you little anti-Semitic man. Alt-righters don’t impress me.”
Science doesn’t impress the dull-witted either.
“Come to think of it, why don’t you? You seem to appreciate political strongmen. They’ve got one of the best over there.”
While Putin has made the offer, one of the core principles of the alt-right is that you take care of your own first.
Plus we don’t want anyone with your reasoning profile in control of our remaining nukes.
Dystopia Max (76803a) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:18 am#85 Rick
thanks for the link to the article – the information in the article is insufficient to provide much in the way of assessing the validity of the tax return info and tax positions taken. The timing of the events mentioned in the article does strongly indicated the NOL was incurred in 1991 or 1992 (not 1995). The timing of the events does suggest the S corp and the related debt forgiveness is a possibility, however, the comment in the article that He was buying up the stock implies that the Taj M was publicly traded which would preclude the corporate entity from being an S Corporation.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:22 amIn summary, the info in the article doesnt provide sufficient info to allow any insight into the tax return.
@90:But if you do vote for one of them…either one…then you deserve it.
Horses**t. Your vote is not an expression of your pure soul. It is an expression of your corrupt participation in a protection racket which uses your vote as a pretext that you have consented to what is done with you.
To my way of thinking, any vote is a moral compromise, and it is always a choice between the lesser of evils. There is no conservative in this race. Even the libertarians are pro-choice, carbon-taxing gun grabbers.
Gabriel Hanna (bc876a) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:23 amExcellent comments here! Thanks!
gp (0c542c) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:24 amNonetheless, the movement is growing and it has to grow. It or something like it was always going to.
What do you think was going to happen? Jews, to put it bluntly, and other leftists (look at the percentage of American Jews who vote Democrat) were going to constantly import millions of people from other ethnicities to replace whites at the ballot box and in society—the majority demographic that built America—and this would go on forever without any kind of response/defense of the tradional American nation?
And no one would notice that Israel has borders, a strict immigration policy, and a wall?
Hell no. You can be unimpressed all you want, but the old right (nationalist) is rising all across Europe and America as a reaction to this. The Republicans (“conservatives”) have done crap all, successfully, to address this … that’s for sure.
That is why you lost the primary: failure. Continued, repeated failure to address the number one issue facing not just America, but most Western nations.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:26 amP.S. That’s why Nigel Farage (the opposite of failure—a success!) is coming to America to help Trump prepare for the next debate. This movement goes beyond alt righters, although they’re important, and it goes well beyond America. The first great success in fighting back wasn’t even in America.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:31 amOh, you’re welcome, gp. We aim to please.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:31 amAnd a principle of Jews and Israel (and I respect that) and African-Americans (and I respect that).
Only, European-Americans aren’t allowed to. Except, more of us are realizing we are.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:38 amAnyone who pays more in taxes than The Law requires is simple-minded.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:55 amIt takes a government lawyer.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:55 amAs are the people who think this “issue” is legitimate.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:56 amJoe,
I suppose Mr. 47% would have to release his tax returns in order to answer all questions regarding the full extent of the losses he incurred through his brilliant and artful dealing.
Rick Ballard (1aa129) — 10/2/2016 @ 8:57 amStart with reading his book.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:02 amThis is too early in October to really be an October surprise (on the other hand, there’s early voting in some states)
I think the Clinton campaign has some more attacks planned. Early voting may make it difficult to have an October surprise.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:05 amOn Meet the Press Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri was asked by Chuck Todd if she knew anyone who paid more taxes than they owed (or something like that) and she evaded the question. She didn’t know anyone.
There are two answers I know:
Wilbur Mills, when he was Chairman of the House ways and Means Committee (approximately 1958 to 1974) who always took the standard deduction
And Mitt Romney, at least one year, for his 2011 taxes, I think, who did not charitable deductions, (or less than he was entitled to.)
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:12 amRelevant to the tangent this thread took if not the post, an essay published today:
Like a lot of things, I’m sure this is partially true. Forgetting Jewishness per se, it makes sense simply because of just how many American Jews, present company clearly excepted, are international leftists.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:12 amDonald Trump is no Mitt Romney, and maybe not that afraid of public opioion, also.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:13 amOne hopes!
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:16 amThis year there could even be a November surprise, since Election Day isn’t until November 8. There was a November surprise in the year 2000 (George W. Bush’s drunk driving arrest back in 1976.)
The second indictment of Casper Weinberger, was still technically an October Surprise, since it happened on October 30, 1992/ This was spun so as to be proof that say Bush lied when he sdaid he didn’t know about the sale of arms to Iran. Only he didn’t lie, and he never said he didn’t know. He said at one point that he was “out of the loop”
The Democrats managed to change the meaning of those words.
Instead of “out-of-the-loop” meaning outside of the chain of command or authority, its meaning was changed to “ignorant” That was not its meaning in 1986/7 as is proven by the article on Senator Charles Mathias of Maryland in the 1986 Almanac of American Politics.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:16 amRoger Stone says Wikileaks will do a dump on Hillary Wednesday that will end her campaign. I take that with a grain of salt, but I’m sure whatever’s coming down the pipe is likely to hurt her some.
James O’Keefe of Project Veritas is said to have video of people in the Clinton campaign dissing African-American voters. That ain’t likely to help, either.
Oh, let’s not forget that Clinton called a quarter of voters on the right “deplorable,” and darned if she didn’t call a quarter of voters on the left, “basement dwellers.”
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:23 amGerald A:
Capital losses are reportable on IRS returns as tax deductions, just as capital gains are reportable as income.
But I’m glad you and narciso said this because it helps me see you have an agenda to defend Trump no matter what. Patterico, on the other hand, has criticized and defended Trump on various issues. He seems more willing to call them as he sees them.
DRJ (15874d) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:25 am# 102 & 103
The timing of his investment in the casino’s (based on the WP article) in 1987 speaks to his lack of business astuteness ( at lest at that time). I began my tax career in the early 1980s and worked through quite a few real estate restructurings/bankruptcies, etc for the first 5-8 years. By mid to late 1985, it was quite apparant that there was a real estate bubble due to the excess lending (very similar to the 2008 real estate crash – simply too much money in the system – and not related to the “lack of regulation” but that is a separate topic). Throughout 1987 and 1988, there was still lot of shaking out in the real estate industry. While some people thought the market had bottomed out by the end of 1986, in It wasnt until the late 1980’s/ early 1990’s that prices had settleed out enough. So buying properties in 1987 was not exactly the most prudent business decision.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:28 amAnd here he’s calling it stupidly, you’ll see the consensus is.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:30 am99 Anyone who pays more in taxes than The Law requires is simple-minded.
Or can’t be bothered with figuring out how to save every last penny.
James B. Shearer (0dbf28) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:36 amMore impacting than the report stating that Trump may have avoided paying taxes for 20 years, will be his response to it over the next couple of days. And if history has shown us anything, he will handle it with his typical lack of lack, grace, or aplomb. And it will be Trump himself that keeps the story alive.
But in the end, none of it will make any difference to his supporters nor his detractors.
Dana (995455) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:40 amOf course I’ll be voting for Trump, but this issue is the kind of silly Trump baggage that we foresaw monopolizing the general election conversation.
During the primaries, we told you Trump supporters that the Democrats & the complicit media would steer the conversation away from issues of importance, and instead focus on Trump’s unfortunate and very silly distracting baggage.
Naturally, the media does that against every GOP nominee in every election, but this year we had a slate of candidates whose baggage appeared to be very minimal, which would thereby enable us to focus on prosecuting The Case Against illary and Barack.
Marco Rubio used some of the royalties from his book to purchase a small motorized fishing boat and his wife got a bunch of speeding tickets. Nobody. Cares.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:48 amScott Walker was a few classes short of completing his Bachelor’s Degree. So what?
Bobby Jindal converted to Catholicism in high school. Horrors!
And when he was about 18 or 19, Ted Cruz once looked into a videocam and announced that he hoped to one day rule the world! Jiminy Cricket!
“Start with reading his book.”
I did, but I got the Kindle version, and no matter what page I clicked, it always went to Chapter 11.
nk (9faaca) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:52 amWith all due respect, this is not “silly [] baggage.” He’s a businessman who has worked for huge sums, and has had profits and losses (note: Buffet lost 2.7 billion in a year once).
You know what the story is? He didn’t declare personal bankruptcy, and had the biggest personal financial turnaround in history according to the Guinness Book of World Records.
Now that’s a story.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:52 amMore likely, someone in her entourage stole or bought it, and mailed it to the New York Times.
What the New York Times was given was the first page of Donald Trump’s 1995 New York State, New Jersey and Connecticut income tax returns. But not the federal. Although if you those 3, you almost certainly had the federal, too.
I suspect the federal was avoided to avoid an implication that people in the IRS gave it to her.
That actually really couldn’t be the case, because the IRS doesn’t save paper copies or even photocopies of tax returns that far back, but still some people could suspect the Obama Administration. (Nowadays the IRS I think basically only keeps “transcriptions” or a line by line computer record of what’s on the tax return. Maybe they might keep the tax returns themselves, or microfilm, for as long as the signatures mean anything or for how they might be used in a tax case, so in any case it really couldn[t come from there).
But still many people could think it. So they released only state tax returns. (Just the first pages, because they are holding something in reserve, or because it would explain it, or because it would show he did pay some taxes.)
The records didn’t come from inside a state government either, because there are records from 3 different states.
I think they gave the game away with that, in terms of disguising the source.
Very important: 1995 might not be the year with the biggest loss. The losses actually took place earlier in the 1990s, but they were carried forward, year after year.
The reason 1995 was picked, I think, was that it was the last year – the most recent year to the present that is – where his taxes had been prepaed by his old accountant.
Starting in 1997, for his 1996 tax returns, Donald Trump hired another accounting firm. (He may have changed accountants and tax attorneys again since.)
It was probably a somewhat shady firm, and that’s the reason why Hillary Clinton, or someone in her entourage, got copies of his tax returns. The Clintons are much better at corruption, and at covering their tracks.
The copies of the returns must have come from Donald Trump’s later accounting firm(s) They would also have had had his most previous tax returns in their files.
You could also think a bank that was given them in order to support a loan was the source, but my vote is for his accounting firm. It maybe could have been gotten by a private detective who impersonated someone authorized to obtain it.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:53 amThe Clintons probably have much more stuff, and if elected president, she may get more on more people.
The information that is in the government files may be wrong or misleading of course, but it is something they would want to use.
The problem for them, is how to use it. They can’t just proceed. They need a reputable, and non-criminal for them, source.
They didn’t get Donald Trump to release it himself. Now if he waits, more evidence that someone illegally obtained tax records for political purposes may come to light, and maybe even something that can trace back to the perpetrator.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 9:55 amMore impacting than the report stating that Trump may have avoided paying taxes for 20 years, will be his response to it over the next couple of days.
he didn’t avoid paying any taxes – the article is very clear about that
he paid what his tax professionals determined was due
just exactly like how harvardtrash heidi’s sacky clients do it
oh my goodness if Mr. Trump had avoided paying something he owed he would’ve had the iron boot of the fascist failmerican government on his neck in a fearsome and really quite frightening way
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:02 amI thought that Donald Trump was lying when he said that, because it doesn’t make him smart.
It means his tax preparers are smart, but he himself may hardly understand it.
And this was borne out by the New York Times article:
Donald Trump, smart?
<b No.
Of course, to be fair, what Donald Trump said was that the accusation made him smart. What he didn’t say, was that it incorrectly imputed great intelligence and sophistication about taxes to him.
Donald Trump is now claiming this proves how well he knows the tax system.
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/trump-campaign-statement1
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:04 amDonald Trump’s losses occured before Adjusted Gross Income because the losses were passed through from partnerships, limited liability companies and Subchapter S corporations.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:10 amor tax attorney firm(s)
If the tax return is illegal, he would be prosecuted. Anyone really believe the weaponized IRS would not nuke Trump in a heartbeat right now? If the tax treatment is legal – look! SQUIRREL! Meanwhile, back to the non-coverage of the Clintons giving to their own slush fund as a tax break.
Patterico – just doing the job that Democrats – wait, no, they’re all doing the same job now.
Advo (c20fd3) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:11 am#123 Or idiotically, he’ll say “You know what, that’s why I’m proposing to eliminate tax loopholes!”.
Or that.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:11 am#119 Sammy finkelman
The copies of the returns most likely came from an employee of the old accounting Firm. This is based on several factors that were common business practices in CPA firms in the 1990’s.
first I cant comment of the particular office procedures in that CPA firm, though I can comment on what the general procedures were in the profession.
Trump’s return is obviously a complicated return which would typically be filed at or near the deadline due to the voluminous nature of the return.
The return was signed by both spouses on 10/15/96 which was the final extended due date. It was common for both spouses to sign the return at the CPA’s office on the last day and have the CPA take the return to the post office. It was also common to make a photo copy of the return (at least the signature page as acomponent of the proof the return was mailed) . You will notice that the sign here sticker is coiped on the NJ return, Again making copies at the last minute and not taking the sticker off the page before copying.
It is not likely to be the New CPA firm as the source of the returns since the client copy of the return typically doesnt have the taxpayer signature (though will sometimes have the clients initials signifying having signed the original. Alternatively, the old cpa firm will simply reprint the return for the new cpa (if the firms use the same tax software, they will often just copy the data file). in eaither case, the actual signatures will not be on the return.
Keep in mind that electronic filing did not exist for 1995 returns (electronic filing existed for several years before the IRS could except the more complex returns) Likewise PDFs did not exist or were very uncommon back in 1996.
In summary based on the professional practices operating across the professional at that time, all indications point to an existing employee of the old CPA, not an employee of the new CPA firm.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:15 am#118 Denver Guy,
What I’m saying is that Trump has a lot of silly baggage mostly of his own making. I haven’t even bothered to read much about the tax returns. Regardless of whether what Trump did is legit or not, the typical low information voter is going to be mis-led about it by the media.
But more importantly, the “water cooler conversation” shifts from opportunities to discuss the economy, jobs, ISIS, Obamacare, immigration, and illary’s dishonesty to … “Hey Fred, did you hear that Trump didn’t pay taxes or whatever?”
To paraphrase Charlie Sheen, “This is not winning.”
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:15 amKevin M (25bbee) — 10/1/2016 @ 11:42 pm
That’s why they didn’t include the federal tax return The information the New York Times, got, the IRS never had. Most state tax returns start off with a restatement of what is on the federal tax return.
Only I think by releasing tax returns from 3 different states and by releasing the tax information specifically for the year 1995, they most likely revealed what is the ultimate source of the copies of the tax returns: The accounting firm Donald Trump hired to do his 1996 taxes (or maybe a subsequent accounting firm.)
The data was either bargained for, donated or stolen by means of some form identity theft. My vote is for a agreement to turn it over, probably occasioned by a long-standing relationship.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:22 ami wonder how many tax monies chelsea and her sleazy hedge fund goldy sacky husband have paid
at least unlike his convict daddy wonderboy clinton’s stayed out of jail … so far
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:22 amThere was nothing special about 1995, except that it was the last (and thus most recent) year in which his taxes were done by Jack Mitnick, now 80, who had Donald Trump’s tax returns since about 1966.
The losses were just carried forward from year to year. Every year in the 1990s would have shown something on the order of a billion dollar loss.
By the way, in 1995, Donald Trump made only $6,108 in wages, salaries and tips. It sounds like he was avoiding paying Social Security and Medicare tax. I wonder, why even $6,108? Is that from appearances on radio and teleevision aand the like?
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:30 am127. OK, you’re right. But why 1995 – the last year? It could be, of course, that that was the last year that someone had access to.
What I thought was that, at some point the files of the accountant were transferred to the new accounting firm, or somewhere else.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:38 amThe Clinton campaign may have be aware of how it was obtained and didn’t report it, and that is probably a crime. In addition they probably had a copy. That may well be illegal.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:40 amIs it possible that the state tax returns were filed some time after the federal? And then maybe even kept somewhere else? Otherwise, I think the omission of the federal tax return was deliberate.
I don’t remember when they switched from 2 extensions – to August 15 and then October 15 – to one extension that goes right away to October 15 – two weeks from now. I thinki it was considerably later than 1995.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:42 amthis is smelling a lot like that wholly discredited new york times story about meghan’s coward daddy having a mistress what he presumably would have got naked and made sexy with
at *best* it’s meager fodder for the twattering ruling class
even the venomous propaganda sluts at National Soros Radio recast the story like this
‘NYT’ Report: Trump’s Tax Records Show He May Not Have Owed Taxes For 18 Years
and, in their last paragraph, aver that
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:44 am133. I don’t think there’s any requirement to report a crime by somebody else – only conspiring with them is a crime, and you need to prove and you need probable cause to investigate. Holding onto a copy may be illegal, but only in a civil sense. A court might order its surrender. My suspicion is that some people affiliated with Clinton played a much greater role in this.
The DNC emails I think were both hacked and released by Russia (after the hacking was discovered and stopped) with very probably no advance notification to any campaign.
I wonder why nobody (but me here) commented on the fact that Trimp knew that Hillary cannot release the deleted e-mails, because it would mean that a lot of people committed perjury and obstruction of justice, not to mention holding onto classified information that U.S. government had demanded be surrendered (if let’s say a laptop or USB drive contained both the deleted and the non-deleted e-mails conatained them.)
Of course, they could mysteriously appear, like the Rose Law Firm billing records.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:54 amTrump can deal with these elements of the media once he has power.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 10:57 amVery important fro Joe @54
I think this almost certainly has to be the case with Donald Trump. He deducted losses from assets he had borriweed to buy ultimately never paid for, so they are not even eventually recaptured as capital gains.
I think we should wait for the Clinton friendly people to release the proof.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:06 am“He doesn’t know the tax code. His accountants and tax attorneys know the tax code.”
Who was smart and financially equipped enough to hire and defend the best accountant and tax attorneys?
“we told you Trump supporters that the Democrats & the complicit media would steer the conversation away from issues of importance, and instead focus on Trump’s unfortunate and very silly distracting baggage.”
“Silly and distracting” is often easier for low-info voters to understand than dry policy with slick talking points.
And fortunately, she’s also terrible at coming up with talking points on that baggage, which makes comebacks like “Khizr Khan is only pretending to be mad at Trump so he doesn’t lose his six-figure job greasing immigration wheels for Saudi Arabian billionaires”, “Hillary didn’t defend Alisa Machado because she cares about women, she did it because she’ll need an experienced getaway car driver once Trump comes for her after the election”, and “Donald wants to keep rapists out, Hillary defended one personally!”
Not that difficult, unless you habitually operate in the LAGOMORPH MINDSET and can’t say those simple phrases without it sounding wrong to you.
Dystopia Max (76803a) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:17 amBob23,
The problem is that’s all too complicated for the typical low info voter to digest.
All they hear is, “Trump’s a zillionaire who didn’t pay taxes.”
If you recall from a interview with Charlie Gibson a number of years ago, Barack didn’t even understand how the capital gains tax works. All that stuff is tall weeds to an overwhelming percentage of the electorate — and to grads of Harvard Law, too.
General election campaigns are not won by discussing genius accounting practices by tax accountants.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:30 amThey’re won by discussing jobs, the economy, jobs, jobs, and protecting national security. When we’re busy discussing genius tax accountants, we’re not discussing jobs, the economy, or protecting national security.
What was published was the front page of three state returns (NY, NJ, CT) so it is unclear why you blaming the IRS. Probably the likeliest source is an employee of his current accountants.
More likely the CPA who also confirmed their accuracy.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:37 amwhether the NYT or Patterico can publish this information: The Pentagon Papers Case.
All that said was that prior restraint was not allowed. Civil or criminal statutes for HAVING published libel statements, classified information, or information otherwise under seal, are not waived.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:42 amlike I say in a year or two, they can go the way of lehman or enron,
https://twitter.com/dmartosko/status/782392421032288257
narciso (d1f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:42 amdid I ever see an apology for the last two minute hate, mind you she was a worthier candidate than trump,
http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/28/christine-odonnells-irs-case-reveals-more-than-just-a-smidgen-of-corruption/
narciso (d1f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:46 amThat’s why they didn’t include the federal tax return
Yes, got that now. The early reports LAST NIGHT when I wrote that did not have this kind of detail.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:47 amDude! He’s got an Amazon affiliate link. Be fair.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:47 amIt would seem that New Jersey could prosecute over this. One of the returns was theirs. And Governor Donut is a Trump man.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:49 amnow this goldberg is an imminently foolish person, his pre Iraq war reporting on the kurds and hezbollah not withstanding,
https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/782430664033394688
narciso (d1f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:49 amBTW: As I suggested last night #28):
NY Times paid no taxes in 2014.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2016/10/02/new-york-times-paid-no-taxes-2014/
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:51 am@Joe. How did the United States Supreme Court decision affect previously filed tax returns? Or future ones?
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:53 am#142
Most likely an employee of the CPA who confirmed the accuracy. There are serious state board licensing issues with the disclosure along with the criminal penalties. Not likely the existing CPA would risk both his license and criminal penalties – though it would normally very unusual for the CPA to make any comment what so ever –
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:53 am@Kevin. The CPA didn’t have access to those returns any more, but the small, or what the NYT defines as small, Long Island accounting firm he worked for, might have had still copies of them. I don’t think he gave them away. It sounded a little biot like you might be saying he supplied them. He’s in Florida anyway and the pages were postmarked New York. (with a return address of Trump Tower)
The CPA explained one anomaly about them:
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:55 am#143
Concur – there is no exception that the pentagon papers would apply.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:55 amThere are serious state board licensing issues with the disclosure along with the criminal penalties.
The CPA is 80 and retired. And you’d have to prove it was him.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:56 amhe’s also a pig-sniffing democrat
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:57 amIt sounds like the accounting firm, located probably somewhere in Nassau County, is still in existence, but Mr. Mitnick no longer works for them. He may not have had too many employeesm if any. It sounds like he was not the boss.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:57 am“He recalled, for example, that when Donald and Ivana Trump came in each year to sign their tax forms, it was almost always Ivana who asked more questions.
Donald Trump, smart?
No.”
Only a nevertrumper could spin things where the person asking more questions is the one more knowledgeable, and the one that has the knowledge and so doesn’t have to ask many questions isn’t “smart”.
LBascom (2f3828) — 10/2/2016 @ 11:58 amThe CPA didn’t have access to those returns any more
You’d be surprised by what people squirrel away. I very much doubt that those “sign here” stickers are still on the file copies, so it was a photocopy take at the time. Which ANYONE involved could have.
Just speaking for myself, if I were involved with a person like Trump and maybe concerned about having signed this guy’s tax return as preparer, I might take some CYA photocopies as backup should some shenanigans occur.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:02 pmIt would be smart of Trump to point out that Clinton’s campaign may have done something illegal and to call for an investigation and then segue from that to the point that Clinton and the media have nothing else to talk about. He has to try to make it backfire on them by making it about them, but his approach to everything is that he wants it to be about himself. He keeps stepping into the same trap. Is there no one on his staff who can talk any sense into him? Apparently not.
I give him credit for this: He is not ignoring it while hoping it blows over like a GOPe does. So while his immediate reaction is sub-optimal it’s still superior to a Romney type Republican. Hopefully he is seeking some advice from his senior campaign staff but my impression is that he doesn’t do that.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:04 pmOnly a nevertrumper could spin things
I dunno. I’ve seen some mighty grotesque spins come out of the Trumpist camp. But you’re right tha all it shows is that Ivana was very concerned about the money, and maybe didn’t trust the Donald fully.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:05 pmit actually just shows that Mr. Trump hired a sleazy unprofessional p.o.s. who didn’t respect the confidentiality of their business relationship
that’s all it shows
happyfeet (28a91b) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:07 pmIt’s not Jack Mitnick, especially since he now lives in Florida. It could be someone who had access to it through the accounting firm. Mitnick probably was not the boss, but he was the only one who did Donald Trump’s tax returns from about 1965 through 1995. He also did Fred Trump’s taxes. Even if he was a partner or a very trusted employee, the firm could have since been sold.
He apparently still does a little bit of accountimng or tax preparation on the side, mqybe for old clients, maybe in Florida.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:07 pmFrom the NY Times (4/16/1994)
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/04/16/us/clinton-taxes-laid-bare-line-by-line.html
Glass houses, stones, etc.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:09 pmRunning a business is a marathon not a sprint with the government picking up the tab like it does for Hillary Clinton”
Bob23 (ce7fc3) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:10 pm
A better way of contrasting himself with Clinton is pointing out how her income comes largely from getting paid six figures per speech by large corporations (the contents of which she won’t disclose).
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:18 pm#155 –
kevin – we may be on the same page – I was just pointing out one of the reasons i dont think it was the prior CPA that released the returns. though I do find it odd that the CPA even retired would have made any comment regarding the authenticity of the return. – so unless he is approaching dementia, discussing or disclosing anything which violates clients confidentiallity is rare.
joe (debac0) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:29 pm#165 Bob23,
Yeah, this was always the problem with nominating Trump. He’s not the guy to memorize stats, figures, and one-liners. He prefers to ad-lib. Of course, you can rely on ad-libbing in a primary debate when there’s 8 other people crammed on stage and everyone only gets 7-10 minutes total of mic time.
But in a one-on-one debate situation, he comes across as terribly un-informed and ill-prepared.
I sit here and cry about how badly Marco Rubio would mop the floor with illary in these debates.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:40 pmand they would be throwing other junk against the wall,
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/10/the_fracas_from_caracas.html
narciso (d1f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 12:51 pm1.I can’t wait to see what distraction he comes up with to divert attention from this story.
It shouldn’t be much of a wait for an attorney because it’s legal and as JR said, it’s smart. Releasing/mailing them to the NYT w/o JR’s permission was not.
The real issue is who and when this was tossed over the transom into the NYT’s dinghy. Conservatives? Maudie? Marla?
If you ascribe to this kind of game, then Snowden, WikiLeaks, Ellsberg and pretty much ‘all of Big Dick’s men’ were in the ‘right.’
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/2/2016 @ 1:18 pm161- Kevin, what I get out of it is that Trump had been doing those meetings for 40 years, and understood what was what, and now he is showing Ivanka the ropes, and naturally there is a learning curve for her.
LBascom (2f3828) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:18 pmPlus very mundane. What attorney, accountant, or even bookkeeper wouldn’t advise you to carry forward your losses?
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:20 pmJoe @54 However there was a quirk in the tax code that existed from 1982 (Bankruptcy act of 1981 and the S corp revision act of 1982) through approx 1994 or 1995 when congress amended 108, (dont have time to check the date) which allowed a basis increase in an S corp for debt forgiveness allowing for suspended losses from basis limitations to be deducted without the debt forgiveness from flowing through to the shareholder. ( There was a SC opinion by Thomas that came out circa 1994-1995 directly on point). This is true loophole (a provision of the tax code never intended by Congress.)
Did Congress change the law after The Supreme Court upheld the loophole?
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:22 pmLet me try to format this right:
Joe @54
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:25 pm@54- However there was a quirk in the tax code that existed from 1982 (Bankruptcy act of 1981 and the S corp revision act of 1982)….
Translation: Reaganomics.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:38 pmI don’t know if Trump has thrown a very winnable election away yet, between his strange answers to some of the debate questions and getting sucked into the Alicia Machado thing, but he probably has made all the errors he can make and still be able to win.
To win, he has to come up with a very good response to this and then be error free the rest of the way – especially the debates. His initial response doesn’t bode well for the first one and the second seems almost impossible. He continues to do it largely by the seat-of-the-pants. I’m starting to take the theory that he doesn’t really want to win a little seriously.
Amazingly, the people who’ve been behind him from the start – the true Trumpers like Dystopia Max – still don’t seem to perceive that he’s made any mistakes.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:53 pmI sit here and cry about how badly Marco Rubio would mop the floor with illary in these debates.
Or Cruz, Walker, Kasich, Carly, Christie, Ryan, Romney or nearly anyone except Trump and Jeb!
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 3:45 pmReaganomics
Yeah, that dratted Reganomics that led to the Long Boom, ended only by the Internet bubble which would be hard to pin on Reagan.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 3:48 pmSeen in a comment on Instapundit:
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:10 pmman of mystery is still stuck in the era of the west wing, for those with a copy of the home game, the patron of univision chaim saban paid 250 million in fines on phony tax shelters,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:16 pmAlso, Hillary took a $700K capital loss carryover on her 2015 taxes, saving here quite a bit in taxes.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-02/clinton-campaign-admits-hillary-used-same-tax-avoidance-scheme-trump
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/2/2016 @ 4:18 pmI would imagine Trump’s lenders had access to at least the pages delivered to the Times. The New Jersey Casino Control Commission had access as well. The copy room crew charged with making the copies had access as did all the file clerks and mail room personnel charged with the mundane activities associated with creating and delivering the copies.
The CPA who verified his own signature on the returns is a nice touch by the Times but the intent of the piece may just be to stoke the paranoid inclinations of
Rick Ballard (1aa129) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:07 pmCaptain QueegTrump as he tries to determinewho stole the strawberriesbetrayed him.I haven’t perceived any paranoid behavior by Trump. What are you thinking of?
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:29 pmNot Paranoid
Definitely Not Paranoid
Extremely Not Paranoid
Gagging volunteers with NDAs is the mark of an open and trusting individual secure in the knowledge his top notch personnel team are always right on the ball.
Rick Ballard (1aa129) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:42 pm@180/181: Lt. Barney Greenwald: Doctor. You have testified that the following symptoms exist in Lieutenant-Commander Queeg’s behavior. Rigidity of personality, feelings of persecution, unreasonable suspicion, a mania for perfection, and a neurotic certainty that he is always in the right. Doctor isn’t there one psychiatric term for this illness?
Doctor Dickson: I never said there was any illness.
“But they fought me at every turn…” – Captain Queeg (Humphrey Bogart) ‘The Caine Mutiny’, 1954
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/2/2016 @ 5:45 pmTwo superior intellects explain why Trump probably leaked his 1995 tax return himself.
Denver Guy (4750ec) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:11 pmTrying to exercise control over people because you don’t trust their judgement has literally nothing to do with paranoia.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:36 pmOne of the people quoted there is Scott Adams. I’m increasingly inclined to think he’s either insane or a genius. As of now I’m leaning to the former but if Trump wins I’ll lean to the latter conclusion.
Gerald A (a48c32) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:42 pmTrue it was a provision that had unintended consequences. But the Gitlitz decision is the case that solidified Thomas reputation for the concept that the statute written by congress is the statute intended by congress. Further it was not the courts job to correct a statute.
Yes
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/2/2016 @ 2:25 pm
joe (93323e) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:49 pmas hunter thompson, someone I generally had little use for, said ‘when the going gets weird, the weird go pro’ static analysis of this reality just won’t do,
narciso (d1f714) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:52 pm# 173
Contraire – nothing to do with reaganomics. Both statutes had much needed reforms and improvements to the relevant statutes. It just had one quirk dealing with basis adjustment when then shareholder and/or partner in an S corp or partnership had debt forgiveness and was insolvent. Congress simply forgot to change one sentence,
joe (93323e) — 10/2/2016 @ 6:53 pmI’ve had to sign NDA’s before installing shrubbery, drain pipe, stone walls.
steveg (5508fb) — 10/2/2016 @ 7:39 pmA famous TV talk woman had all the laborers sign one even though none of them spoke enough English to talk about her and even if they did, they had no idea who she was.
Sammy
Sammy – Trump reported substantial self employment income on schedule C – so no social security tax or medicare tax was avoided in 1995. medicare wages had the same cap as social security wages in 1995.
joe (debac0) — 10/3/2016 @ 6:28 amI haven’t perceived any paranoid behavior by Trump
I must have missed the /sarc tag.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 10/3/2016 @ 6:53 amApparently the envelope sent to the NYT was posted/postmarked at Trump Tower last month.
Assuming the public postal drops are within a public area in Trump Tower and it wasn’t mailed within the interoffice mail system, security cameras may have tape of the mailer in their archives.
“Wood-steen!!!”– “All The President’s Men,” 1976
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/3/2016 @ 6:39 pmDonald J. Trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995…
For government, that’s “Trump change.”
For instance, before the program ended in 2011, the average cost of a single space shuttle mission was $1.5 billion in (2008 dollars.)
‘The buck stops here.’ – Harry Truman
DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/3/2016 @ 7:44 pmSo what we’re saying here is that Donald Trump followed the laws and carried forward a business income loss. I certainly wouldn’t want to vote for someone who defies the law. His opponent for the election to President of The United States has also used these same laws to carry forward a business loss. What a waste of time to even discuss this topic. It would be worthwhile to consider the criminality of maintaining the secrets of The United Sates Government on a privately owned e-mail server.
MarkInKansas (b94a7e) — 10/4/2016 @ 12:30 am177.
But Marla Maples’ divorce attorney would also have subsequent years, and the federal. (Of course the federal would have also been in the possession of any of these other people, like someone at the New Jerrsey casino control commmission. To lak ony the state returns is either a way to avoid casting suspicion on the IRS, or because it was filed separately, but having those records in a seprate place is most likely in an accounting firm. Joe said that’s most based on a the copy that was sent in the mail.)
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/4/2016 @ 5:29 pm193. DCSCA (797bc0) — 10/3/2016 @ 6:39 pm
No, it was postmarked New York Postmarks now no longer contain any finer detail than the first 3 numbers of the Zip Code. That means 100 = Manhattan. There are actually finer coded marks on mail I think. That’s how they were able to trace the anthrax letters to a mailbox. It was in a manila envelope/
It had a return address of 455 Fifth Avenue (Trump Tower or the Trump organization. Probably more likely in a longshot effort to mislead than as a joke.
It arrived in the New York Times on Friday, September 23, 2016. That was 3 days before the first debate. David Barstow talked to the accountant, Jack Mitnick, on Wednesday September 28, 2016 in a bagel shop somewhere in Florida. He may have gotten permission from Donald Trump or even been told to defend it. He was at first reluctant. The article went online on Saturday night, October 1, 2016 at about 9:10 pm EDT.
It was addressed to Susanne Craig, who is known, among New York Times reporters, for always frequently checking her snail mail.
Sammy Finkelman (57e37d) — 10/4/2016 @ 5:45 pm