When Voting One’s Conscience Becomes A Threat To Others
[guest post by Dana]
Was there ever a more dreadful thing said by a politician ?
And to those listening, please, don’t stay home in November. Stand, and speak, and vote your conscience, vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the Constitution.
This isn’t hard: If Donald Trump has indeed convinced voters that he will guard our nation, protect our freedoms, and honor the Constitution from all enemies, then the collective conscience of America-loving voters will naturally be turned toward him on November 8. But, ironically, when freedom of thought and freedom to stand on principle is encouraged in the public square by a bold politician, it results in a fierce outcry of protest. Not the conscience! Anything but that! (One almost gets the impression that there are those who wouldn’t object too much if a political body compelled the individual vote… just this once, you know, because so much is at stake.) Clearly, a lot of Americans have not bought what’s being sold, and as a result, an appeal to the individual conscience becomes a dangerous thing with which to contend.
Unvelieveably, this is America, right here, right now. And this is the pro-liberty side of the aisle.
A lot of us still believe that all of our freedoms should be celebrated, our liberty treasured, and that working hard to protect them is a calling for every American. So when I hear a politician imploring me to vote my conscience and to think and decide as an individual, I’m not going to scream at him to shut-up. I’m going to celebrate, because the last thing I want is apparently the first thing others need: to be told what to do.
–Dana
Let’s hear it for thinking Americans who vote their own conscience, using their own minds, no matter which side of the aisle!
Dana (995455) — 7/21/2016 @ 8:40 amOh, you don’t expect any trumpsters to actually think before Tourette’s kicks in, do you?
Steve Malynn (4bc33a) — 7/21/2016 @ 8:51 amSee my comment on the other thread,
Shapiro says Trump set Cruz up, approved the message as if they were just fine with it.
Eager to see what gets confirmed or not.
MD in Philly (f00ab0) — 7/21/2016 @ 9:03 amI was going to vote for Stevens, Evans, Doherty and Woods and deny Clinton the White House however being told by the GOP Elites that my conscience is not my own and I must obey the party has me wavering against my initial decision.
If Trump and his acolytes want me to vote against Hillary then he and his supporters must first stop demanding I get on my knees and bow before his authoritarian tendencies.
The Democratic Party is the Party of Evil and the Republican Party is the Party of Evil-Enablers; at this point what difference does it make.
Susan (b1e225) — 7/21/2016 @ 9:11 amPatterico
Thanks for the link to Cruz’s speech
https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2016/07/full-text-of-cruzs-speech-trump-supporters-didnt-want-you-to-hear
joe (debac0) — 7/21/2016 @ 9:44 amDana #1
Dana (995455) — 7/21/2016 @ 8:40 am
Really – How many democrats would vote for Hillary if they used their own minds
joe (debac0) — 7/21/2016 @ 9:46 amWe’re defeated. The forces of disorder have won.
TheNaBr (81690d) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:06 amNews cycle fodder. This too shall pass.
gbear (defc54) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:06 amI had understood that the speech was not vetted, read, approved, or anything else by Trump’s campaign.
Bill H (971e5f) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:08 amIt’ll be quite interesting to see if it was. If that’s the case, there will be a lot of the popping sounds of heads asploding all throughout that convention today.
Neil Bush joins Ted Cruz’s finance team
Chummy, good old boys club goodness from the business as usual team.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:10 amI was a Cruz supporter, but I’m angry about his “vote your conscience” comment. Today, the Convention nas become, in effect, a show to support the party’s Presidential candidate. If Cruz didn’t want to support Trump, he should have quietly skipped the Convention.
BTW the phrase “vote your conscience” is IMHO a nasty insult. It pretty clearly implies that a person of good conscience wouldn’t vote for Trump.
David in Cal (2b55d5) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:15 amFrom the superb Jonah Goldberg:
Amen, brother.
L.N. Smithee (b84cf6) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:19 amHad Cruz skipped the convention
that would have signaled
You people are not worth my time
And that is the message those who supported him would have taken away,
Instead, he showed up,
Congratulated Trump,
And said to get out and vote in November
And defeat the Dems
Was that really so bad??
Lots of chaos and disinformation out today
MD in Philly (f00ab0) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:22 amThanks, LN
MD in Philly (f00ab0) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:24 amYou mean, like me? I honestly don’t know what you’re havin a problem with. “Vote your conscience” means exactly that- vote for the one you think best fits your values. If that’s Trump, so be it. Neither of them, Clinton or Trump fit my values in any way, shape or form. Therefore, I’m “voting my conscience”, and voting for neither.
Bill H (971e5f) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:28 amTed met Heidi while they were both working for the George W. Bush campaign.
It wouldn’t surprise me if at some point George advised him to marry her in order to enhance Ted’s political career.
How is it that I am now urged to believe that the Cruz family are wayward innocents caught in a political crossfire?
They have been political operatives since the beginning. The cracks are showing.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:42 amI voted for Cruz in the primary even after Trump had supposedly sewn it up, and what he did last night is why.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:44 am@David:BTW the phrase “vote your conscience” is IMHO a nasty insult. It pretty clearly implies that a person of good conscience wouldn’t vote for Trump.
You can call Einstein an idiot, and he won’t be offended, because he’s not one. You can call George Washington a crook, and he won’t be offended, just think you’re delusional. You can call Sgt York a coward and tell Yao Ming he’s short, if you like.
A coward hotly resents slurs on his bravery, a liar on his honesty, a trollop on her chastity. If you think “vote your conscience” is an insult aimed at you and who you support, it is very likely that you deserve the insult.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:49 amGood point, Gabriel.
MD in Philly (f00ab0) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:08 amBye, bye, Ted. I supported you and voted for you, but your small minded behavior at the convention means I never will again.
Ted, this isn’t about you. It’s about the country and the disaster we will face if Hillary Clinton is elected. Your failure to endorse the only person with a chance of stopping her is telling – you value yourself over our country.
And, of course, you now deserve the “lying Ted” moniker, since you lied when you pledged to support the nominee of your party.
John Moore (e14975) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:11 amBS John, explain, with quotes, what in Cruz convention speech was offensive.
Steve Malynn (4bc33a) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:20 am#21 BS John, explain, with quotes, what in Cruz convention speech was offensive.
Steve Malynn (4bc33a) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:20 am
I concur what part was offensive –
apparrently in politics – having ethics, a principled position and a moral compass is a bad thing.
The establishment doesnt like Cruz because he stands on principles.
joe (debac0) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:38 amWait a minute fellas.
Had to get next to my fainting couch.
Okay go ahead.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:47 am‘Trump delegates booed when Cruz said “God bless America,” just like the Democrats they actually are.’– Erick Erickson.
SPQR (0cce45) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:53 amRaphael Cruz protesting Batista in Austin Texas circa 1959 (red arrow points to Cruz)
See that guy carrying the Cuban flag. You see him right? Why was that guy handing out leaflets with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans on Aug 9th 1963, along with the guy who YOU insist isn’t Ted’s father
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:55 am@12: From the superb Steven Spielberg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCUwQIn3GrU
He chose… poorly.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:04 pmSupposedly – lol.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:08 pmGood, hopefully after election night they both are in need of a small state (NM or UT or lets dream big and say Texas) who choose neither, to win outright.
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:11 pmSo how does that Bush team encouraging Heidi to mack to Ted work? Did they lock them in a room or a basement?
I wonder what Jeb’s doing.
Only thing in the news feed – Ouch! Jeb’s 3 Delegates Cost $50 Million a Pop
Illuminating. Here I was thinking Ted Cruz would be a problem as a team player. You’d always have to wonder if he is undermining you in secret, but this shows it’s not a case of Cruz being a poor team player in general. It’s just Cruz is on the Bush team, and the Bush team is ready for Hillary.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:20 pmDid they lock them in a room or a basement?
What? You don’t find Heidi attractive? Wow. Be careful, unless you mean to cause the Cruisers to take another dive at the fainting couch.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:27 pmWhat guy? Bigfoot?
I mean, for Christ’s sake. Don’t play guilt by association games. Trump’s national campaign chairman lobbied for Ferdinand Marcos and Mobutu Sese Seko.
JP (bd5dd9) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:29 pmTAKE YOUR MEDS
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:30 pmJP’s got a point too.
Papertiger is all about weirdo photo red scares. But Trump openly praised the Tienanmen Square Massacre and he’s not concerned.
Rafael Cruz’s earwax is more conservative than Donald Trump.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:31 pm@papertiger:Supposedly – lol.
Sorry, I didn’t make a notarized copy of my ballot so I could mail it to you for your inspection.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:34 pmpapertiger just keeps on keepin’ on with the tinfoil hat bullshit and then wonders why he can’t seem to convince anyone to jump on board the Trump train with him. I wonder why that is?
radar (14e3a6) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:35 pmThe amusement is generated by your assertion that Trump supposedly won the election.
Are you ready for Hillary, or ready for a recount?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:37 pmThe funniest part of the Trumpanzees hooting about how Cruz is supposedly such a thin-skinned pussy is that their demigod DEFINES the term “thin skinned”.
radar (14e3a6) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:37 pm@papertiger: No notarized copy of my ballot, as I explained above, but here is contemporaneous evidence:
Probably no one cares what I did last week, but I cast a primary vote for one Ted Cruz, hoping that in some small way it will eventually matter. I am not a supporter of Trump, but I hate to see people losing their sense of perspective and eagerly swallowing the fascism swill that gets trotted out by the media every time a Republican might get elected to something.
And that is true. Trump is far short of Ted Cruz but he’s a long way from being Hitler, or even indeed Hillary. And I’ve said that any number of times here.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:38 pm/www.waynemadsenreport.com/custom/rbcruz5.jpg
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:38 pm@papertiger:The amusement is generated by your assertion that Trump supposedly won the election.
At that time that I voted, my chronologically challenged friend, Trump had not yet an absolute majority of delegates.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:39 pmWhy are documented evidence proving Rafael Cruz was handing out flyers with Oswald blocked?
Afraid of the truth? Truth is easier Pat. Less headache. Better for your digestion.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:40 pmIf you have to hide info to maintain your position, that means your position is forked up.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:43 pmSarah Palin to Ted Cruz: “Delete your career.”
Denver Guy (21d3a4) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:44 pmI checked that jpg for boobies. It is 100% certified prurient interest free.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:46 pmGabriel Hanna, which state did you vote in?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:49 pm@papertiger: which state did you vote in?
Washington. We vote by mail.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:56 pmGotta love Rush!
Cruz never had a chance — he helped Trump without intending to…. goes in thinking he is Reagan and leaves like Ted Kennedy…. and gets shunned by many of the Texas delegation the next morning….
Just sent my first check to the Trump campaign and in the reminder note at the bottom wrote in “dedicated to the Cruzers”
spokanebob (6797b5) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:59 pmYeah, but being chummy with Boehner is no big deal. Because TRUMP.
I see you are pulling out the conspiracy theories too. Sad.
Patrick Henry, the 2nd (e04f50) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:00 pm@papertiger: The deadline for the Washington primary was May 24th. At that time, Trump did not have his 1237 delegates. However, Cruz had already suspended his campaign and so had Kasich. They remained on the ballot along with Ben Carson.
So, yes, I voted for Cruz after Trump had “supposedly sewn it up”. He has now actually sewn it up, of course. But there could have been rule changes or what have you: which I thought to be a terrible idea. The only thing worse than nominating Trump is having Trump win the votes and but take away the delegates through jiggery-pokery.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:01 pm8 years ago many on this site were her biggest fans…
LMAO
spokanebob (e86321) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:01 pmWashington state. – That explains it.
You all had your own schedule.
According to Bing, Washington’s count is still in progress.
Hurry!
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:01 pm@papertiger: According to Bing, Washington’s count is still in progress.
I have no idea what you are referring to, since you don’t post a link, but we are having another election right now.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:03 pmI’m developing a new respect for Mitch McConnell, so there’s that.
Boehner is out of work regardless.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:06 pmMD in Philly (f00ab0) — 7/21/2016 @ 9:03 am
Trump, or his campaign, not only approved it it – maybe rhey would rather not have had it, but they did want Ted Cruz to speak or something – but they also approved the interpretation of Ted Cruz’s words by Newt Gingrich, who perhaps showed he might have made a good United States Supreme Court Justice or Court of Appeals Judge, or modern religious leader.
http://www.whatthefolly.com/2016/07/21/transcript-newt-gingrichs-speech-at-the-republican-national-convention-part-1/
This was not ad libbed. It was on the teleprompter.
Actually Ted Cruz didn’t say you can “vote your conscience”, he said, please “vote your conscience”; and “voting your conscience” always means vote for the candidate you prefer most, or at least do not vote for someone who is the lesser of two evils whom you really don’t want to see occupying that office.
What did Ross Perot mean here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8C-ERa4jcY
Now it is a question if there is going to be any non-evil going to be on the ballot. Neither the Libertarians nor the Greens cut it.
Sammy Finkelman (372aad) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:10 pmOn the radio they’re playing Ted’s pledge to support the Republican nominee, and specifically, by name, Donald Trump as the Republican nominee. Bret Baird made sure to phrase the question so there’s no wiggly room.
Ted said, “My word is my bond, I will support Donald if he is nominated.”
\Ouch
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:12 pmIf anyone should be able to recognize what will end a career, it’s gotta be Sarah Palin.
Rather amusing, in retrospect, how tenaciously a lot of people used to defend her.
radar (14e3a6) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:13 pmI think that’s from the Fox debate that Trump skipped.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:14 pmListening to our customers today, it was almost unanimous that Cruz was a disappointment
EldonH (e0559f) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:16 pmlast night. We had rich/poor and old/young today. All want unity to defeat Hillary.
This is the first in the nation caucus state that Cruz won. From what I heard today,
Ted can forget that happening again.
Oh, you mean that same pledge Trump made and then repudiated when asked about it on CNN? That one?
radar (14e3a6) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:17 pmAiles has resigned from Fox.
Cruz has been sent packing.
Trump to deliver acceptance speech.
And all is right with the world.
DCSCA (797bc0) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:18 pmAre there any other solemn oaths Ted’s sworn lately?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:18 pmOh, you mean that same pledge Trump made and then repudiated when asked about it on CNN? That one?
radar (14e3a6) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:17 pm
Lets see critisizing an oath on the airwaves on the one side,,,
breaking an oath in front of the National Convention on the other.
Yeah.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:21 pmcruz is no good he is oath-breaker and he is pooper
but Mr. Trump forgives him anyway
that says so much about Mr. Trump
happyfeet (a037ad) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:21 pmhe pledged to support nominee canaduh turd crud is scum. so is crud suppository.
pencer (116068) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:22 pmThe irony is that Trump said while complaining to CNN in effect that being forced to take this oath is robbing the candidate of the right to vote one’s conscious.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:28 pmBack to the newfound respect for Mitch McConnell, I really never saw reason for the hate, he has usually been steadfast on immigration (yes, perhaps due to political expedience) – usually is not a willing participant in those “Gang of #” discussions etc.
I think its just the unfortunate optics of his appearance, the edumacated foghorn leghorn voice and the stereotype of white man led around on leash by Asian wife (for a few of you – I know that the leash goes in both directions, at least).
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:31 pmAh, the stupid is swarming now! About 10 in a row there ….
Beldar (fa637a) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:32 pmWouldn’t he be great as Secretary of State though? You’d never have to spin the globe to check witch country is his.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:34 pmCriticizing? He took the same pledge and then told CNN that he had no intention of following through on it. You know, exactly what you’re getting the vapors about Cruz doing.
radar (14e3a6) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:36 pmGod, please make my opponents ridiculous.
Amen
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:36 pmDustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:31 pm
He didn’t praise the massacre, but his comment on it (in an interview in 1990 that got some renewed publicity earlier this year without too many people noticing he said that in 1990) was that it showed that the rulers were strong.
To this day, Donald Trump is not interested in human rights in foreign countries, even the right for people not to be massacred, and he would not intervene, nor would he give any people escaping the killing asylum for fear that some perpetrators would get in as well, nor is he interested in spending any blood or treasure to prevent other countries from being conquered, but he is only interested in trade policy, in a mercantilist sort of way.
It looks sort of like he would get along with Putin, maybe better than Hillary. Some people giving speeches at the Republican National Convention, like Chris Christie, who criticized Hillary’s “reset” with Russia and her button, don’t realize it, but Trump’s aligned with Obama here, or closer to Putin.
Trump’s people watered down a platform plank about Ukraine so that it wouldn’t say, as one delegate proposed, that Ukraine’s military should be given “lethal defensive weapons” but only “appropriate assistance.” And he’s not even sure if Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania should be defended even though they are members of NATO. How much they contribute to NATO would have to be examined. He’s got several people working for him, who’ve been on the pro-Russian or pro-Putin “team.”
Sammy Finkelman (372aad) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:41 pmThat’s a national show. Tom Sullivan is the whole country.
Tom is having trouble finding any caller with a good thing to say about Cruz.
You guys should phone in. They’ll give you the express.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:41 pm16. It was the late Barbara Olsen who tried to put Ted Cruz and Heidi Nelson togetehr, or keep them together.
Sammy Finkelman (372aad) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:45 pmHere is Garry Kasparov on page 23 of the New York Daily News today: (a virulently anti-Trump and significantly pro-Hillary paper of course, but Garry Kasparov is quite independent, and has published more usually in the Wall Street Journal)
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/garry-kasparov-donald-trump-vladimir-putin-enabler-article-1.2719178
Sammy Finkelman (372aad) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:46 pm@Sammy Finkelman:To this day, Donald Trump is not interested in human rights in foreign countries, even the right for people not to be massacred, and he would not intervene, nor would he give any people escaping the killing asylum for fear that some perpetrators would get in as well, nor is he interested in spending any blood or treasure to prevent other countries from being conquered, but he is only interested in trade policy, in a mercantilist sort of way.
That describes a large portion of the electorate, Democrat, Republican, and Independent. Which is why I think that the election of Herself, like Brexit, is not a forgone conclusion.
In fact it tallies with what John Quincy Adams said,
America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, equal justice, and equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations, while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when the conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama, the European World, will be contests between inveterate power, and emerging right.
Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.
She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet upon her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished lustre the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world: she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:49 pmGabriel
Sorry about that
https://www.bing.com/search?q=Election%202016%20Primaries&p1=%5BFUI+els%3D%22Primaries%22%20rpu=%22full%22%5D&FORM=ELHEAD&ajax=ElectionsConventions&axID=1&pIG=56D934486C9A40F880EFEFDE3C8E024C
Probably easier to search for Trump or Cruz or a candidate of your choice.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:52 pmAt the top they have an election coverage bar. Hit “primaries” then scroll to the state.
Sorry about that link too.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 1:52 pm@papertiger: They’re not still counting the votes. The D column is blank there because the Washington Democrats chose to caucus instead of primarying. The Washington ballot had D candidates on it, and Hillary won that ballot, but Sanders was awarded the delegates by the caucus.
So go a bit easy on the snark when you don’t know what’s going on.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:00 pmNow to inflate some heads even more:
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/21/poll-troops-prefer-gary-johnson-over-trump-clinton/
urbanleftbehind (5eecdb) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:02 pmClick the Trump side and you get a drop down screen. It says …
I forget.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:02 pmCount in progress. I had to look
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:03 pmHas this convention been fun or what?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:04 pmOf course, the Trumputins were not actually booing and cursing “liberty” and “freedom.” They were throwing a tantrum at the behest of their dear leader, DJT. The optics are still horrid and will go down in legend. They will have to answer for it. DJT should be made to answer.
The very real problem is that neither DJT nor his cultish followers have a clue what liberty and freedom truly are. Mix them together with the 47% and you have the rot of ignorance which is collapsing the republic.
Ed from SFV (3400a5) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:05 pmI do understand ‘my word is my bond’.
I understand that much.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:09 pmUp and down the ticket let the dead bury their own.
DNF (ffe548) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:14 pmi understand all about a.) freedom and b.) liberty (even the nuances)
and way better than stinkypig does that’s for sure
happyfeet (a037ad) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:14 pm74. At that time, in 1823, the United States was much less powerful, and would not dominate any coalition, either, and there was other hope of deafeating inveterate power.
After the Civil War, the United States did go abroad in search of monsters to destroy, starting with the complete elimiation of the African slave trade, which, despite the efforts of the British government after 1833, was not completely halted until the United States got involved.
After that, not too much until World War I, although Theodore Roosevelt made peace between Japan and Russia.
I don’tt see Donald Trump being even interested in verbal support for freedom. Instead, he’s afraid of what will happen if any dictator falls. “Chicken Kiev” on steroids.
Sammy Finkelman (372aad) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:22 pmHe wants Muslim dictators and western democracy.
For good reasons in each case.
Denver Guy (21d3a4) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:33 pmSammy, all due respect, but you tend to understand information differently from other people, and you come across as wrong. You often make assertions as though they are factual when you are actually straining to reach theories.
Trump obviously was praising being horrible and putting down free speech with strength, because to not do so would be to “blow it” by being “weak”. Clearly this action is the action Trump believes should have been taken. There’s no interpretation here where Trump is saying China should have permitted the protests without a violent and ‘strong’ response.
Papertiger, I’m laughing at your attempt to inform Gabriel, one of the smarter commenters here, about the wrong election in her state. Keep up the good work. Maybe there’s a photo of Cruz’s aunt at the moon landing studio set with the secret Washington state rules you could dig up.
——–
Sarah Palin is one to talk about having destroyed one’s own political career, given she went from being one of the best and brightest in the GOP to being a reality TV star. Palin clearly thinks Cruz should have put the political party over his family. Palin’s claim that Cruz is responsible for our nation’s debt is idiotic. She’s just casting wild insults at this point, and she is totally irrelevant. Cruz already has a more lengthy and distinguished career than Palin, who failed to complete even one term of high office and is a punchline with 75% of Americans. I used to be a fan before I realized she was merely acting.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:38 pmurbanleftbehind,
that’s stunning. I wonder how much that has to do with Trump’s terrible treatment of veterans and how much it has to do with his famous draft dodging, where he got a deferral over a foot problem, but was unable to recall which foot was so horribly troubled. Trump’s frat boy laughing about sleeping around while our troops were fighting wars, and his bragging that his prep school was basically the same thing, are as endearing to veterans as Trump’s bashing of POWs as though they are failures.
But really, imagine being the spouse or child of a soldier, and wondering what capricious nonsense Trump would send your dad, wife, or whomever off to fight for. Trump is the opposite of composed and deliberate. He’s dangerous, and Hillary would be a better commander in chief, even though she would be a very bad one too.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 2:41 pmI thought Cruz gave a great speech. He did congratulate Trump, talked about defeated the terrible ideas of the democrats that are destroying this country economically, socially, and our national security.
American (4b814b) — 7/21/2016 @ 3:17 pmYes he could have said vote for Trump, that that is understood by voting your conscious given the other option is the opposite.
@papertiger: The count in Washington was certified by the Secretary of State on June 7.
Don’t believe everything you see on the Internet.
Gabriel Hanna (64d4e1) — 7/21/2016 @ 3:33 pmBTW the phrase “vote your conscience” is IMHO a nasty insult. It pretty clearly implies that a person of good conscience wouldn’t vote for Trump.
David in Cal (2b55d5) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:15 am
“Vote your conscience” cannot possibly be an insult to anyone whose conscience is not bothering them.
L.N. Smithee (b84cf6) — 7/21/2016 @ 3:41 pmHilarious! But it captures the Trump campaign’s hypocrisy nicely.
Please link where you complained it was a nasty insult to smear Cruz’s wife, her appearance, to insinuate Cruz’s dad murdered someone, to say Ben Carson was like a child molester, etc.
Oh, you didn’t complain about those things? Funny how actual nastiness is no big deal to Trump’s fans, but simply telling people to follow their conscience is a slap in the face.
But Trump is morally detestable, so I get why you’re so upset. The guy ditched his wife for a ‘hot piece of ass’. He’s bashed veterans as undesirable on Park Avenue. He dodged the draft. By the time the general election campaigns really take off he will be a national disgrace in the eyes of most Americans.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 3:46 pmJust to say, Patterico: I completely understand where you’re coming from.
I won’t mention the blog, but there’s one I like to go to, where the attitude seems to be: “if you’re wealthy, powerful and successful, you should be allowed to do ANYTHING.” They particularly love to talk about Jeremy Clarkson, formerly of BBC’s Top Gear, as an example. This is a guy who, behind the scenes, was actually ASSAULTING the support staff on top of throwing tantrums and screaming.
What did I get to hear when I said Clarkson deserved being fired? “You don’t fire the money!! The coffee boy who got hit was a loser anyway!!”
Pardon my french, but fuck that. I don’t care who you are. I don’t care how many people love your show. You don’t get to abuse people. Period. Will my saying so change that? Of course not, people are always going to worship at the altar of power, fame and money.
A lot of the Trump support frankly reminds me of this.
At this stage, I support Trump ONLY for his potential ability to beat Hillary. But do I… like the man? Respect him? Think he truly speaks from the heart? I can’t say I do.
You wanna hate Ted Cruz? It’s your right to do so. But I personally think Trump supporters everywhere have some soul searching to do, not that they ever will.
qdpsteve (3aa73f) — 7/21/2016 @ 3:49 pm(I’ll try this again without the profanity, as my last post was put in moderation…)
Just to say, Patterico: I completely understand where you’re coming from.
I won’t mention the blog, but there’s one I like to go to, where the attitude seems to be: “if you’re wealthy, powerful and successful, you should be allowed to do ANYTHING.” They particularly love to talk about Jeremy Clarkson, formerly of BBC’s Top Gear, as an example. This is a guy who, behind the scenes, was actually ASSAULTING the support staff on top of throwing tantrums and screaming.
What did I get to hear when I said Clarkson deserved being fired? “You don’t fire the money!! The coffee boy who got hit was a loser anyway!!”
Pardon my french, but #@!& that. I don’t care who you are. I don’t care how many people love your show. You don’t get to abuse people. Period. Will my saying so change that? Of course not, people are always going to worship at the altar of power, fame and money.
A lot of the Trump support frankly reminds me of this.
At this stage, I support Trump ONLY for his potential ability to beat Hillary. But do I… like the man? Respect him? Think he truly speaks from the heart? I can’t say I do.
You wanna hate Ted Cruz? It’s your right to do so. But I personally think Trump supporters everywhere have some soul searching to do, not that they ever will.
qdpsteve (3aa73f) — 7/21/2016 @ 3:54 pmthe phrase “vote your conscience” is IMHO a nasty insult.
It’s as if the inestimable value of having the freedom to vote our conscience has been disminished to the point of meaninglessness in our modern politics. I can’t express how incredibly sad that is. In America, of all places.
Dana (995455) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:00 pmSarah Palin to Ted Cruz: “Delete your career.”
Denver Guy (21d3a4) — 7/21/2016 @ 12:44 pm
Ha, ha, ha, ha! Sarah, I love you more than I loved my barmaid, but when you build your house, call me. The only career you managed to promote was Tina Fey’s.
nk (dbc370) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:01 pmApparently, Cruz was suppose to roll over for the guy who attacked Cruz’s integrity, wife, father, and marriage. Apparently, Trump is like the Clintoon’s in never being held accountable.
jkstewart2 (5cf0df) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:23 pmDaniel Pipes has quit the GOP
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:30 pmWell, it shouldn’t be.
Why on earth should he? He’s the genuine Republican. Trump is a fraud. It’s Cruz’s party, and he had every right to be there and thumb his nose (ever so politely) at the usurper.
That’s right.
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:34 pmBS, Patterico…
I see you’re still trying to weasel your way out of a idiotic decision by doubling down.
How about a different title:
“When Voting One’s Conscience Becomes A Threat To Our Way Of Life”
A non-vote for Trump helps increase any lead Hillary has.
Pts (b6849f) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:35 pmHe did not lie. But the moment Trump renounced the pledge he released all the other candidates from it as well.
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:39 pmThe Hill on the CNN Townhall with Donald Trump.
Cooper asks “In the event you are not the nominee what would go into your decision of whether or not you’ll support ….”
That’s irony.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:40 pmHere somebody advertiises a button from the second Perot campaign in 1996 that says “Vote your
conscience.”
https://www.tias.com/ross-perot-political-button—vote-your-conscience-425435.html
Sammy Finkelman (643dcd) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:43 pmHey lets face it – the loyalty pledge was a coordinated maneuver by the same malcontents who are now repudiating it, with the stated design of heading off a Trump 3rd party run that would have handed the election to Clinton, and the unstated goal of embarrassing the Donald into quitting, starting with the first question of the first debate.
It was dirty politics then. It’s dirty politics now. Cruz makes it a plain lie as well.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:52 pmFantastic link. I enjoyed the read and encourage everyone to follow Milhouse’s link. Particularly Trump fans who have an open mind and want to understand why many Republicans are having a hard time getting on board.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:54 pmUmm, it was pretty dumb, but they all agreed to the pledge. Then Trump broke the pledge. He couldn’t keep his word. Now he acts like even though he wouldn’t hold up his end, everyone else owed him their end. I guess this is how it worked all those times Trump filed for bankruptcy after a building was built.
Do you trust Trump, Papertiger? Do you think he’s going to keep his promises to you?
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:55 pmspokanebob, 8 years ago she hadn’t sold her soul to your golden mooncalf.
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/21/2016 @ 4:58 pmYesterday, Hillary Clinton was quick to cite this on Twitter:
https://mobile.twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/755967178285907968
Well, if you can fool some of the people some of the time…
Sammy Finkelman (372aad) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:02 pmThe Hill link in comment 102 has the video from the CNN Townhall in question.
Donald Trump didn’t repudiate anything.
Dustin could care less about fact truth and whatnot. The rest of you can have a look for yourself.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:02 pmGabriel @ 92
Good to hear. I’ll convey the news to Bing.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:07 pmPapertiger, I do care about the truth.
Here’s the truth.
It is quite explicit that Trump reneged on his pledge, breaking a promise.
You must have done a lot of searching to find a link that isn’t so clear. But even then you use bad faith in selectively quoting what works for you. Here’s the line just before your quote, from your link, which you claim is accurate:
So did Trump break his pledge or not? You say I don’t care about the truth, but your own link supports my claim. Please show us some photos of Ted Cruz’s grandma at the Ford Theater now.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:08 pmCOOPER: Do you continue to pledge whoever the Republican nominee is?
TRUMP: No. I don’t anymore.
COOPER: You don’t?
TRUMP: No, we’ll see who it is.
From that moment Cruz was no longer bound by the pledge.
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:14 pmHere, from March 30, 2016:
Dana (995455) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:28 pmFrom Trump’s own mouth.
Dana (995455) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:40 pmi pledge to do support on Mr. Trump no matter what
cause he’s the best choice is why
that’s a star you can steer by
in darkest of night
but you must be brave
resolute
and possessed of moral clarity
happyfeet (28a91b) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:45 pmTinyurl.com, Papertiger. Works a treat once you figure it out.
Bill H (971e5f) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:47 pmThanks Bill.
Dana – nice try.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:57 pmI guess the question to ask is which of us are shocked that politicians change their oaths and promises like underwear?
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/21/2016 @ 5:59 pmPaper tiger,
I don’t have to “try”. It simply is what it Is, right there for you to see.
Dana (995455) — 7/21/2016 @ 6:18 pmTrump did not make a pledge to Cruz.
Cruz did not make a pledge to Trump.
Trump & Cruz & Kasich & etc made a pledge to the Republican Party. A pledge to support the nominee.
Even so .. if, say, Kasich had won the nomination, would Cruz be released from his pledge to support the nominee (Kasich) because Trump reneged on his pledge?
fred-2 (253d03) — 7/21/2016 @ 7:50 pmEvidently no one defending “Vote your conscience” watched the Rules Committee deliberations. The phrase is beyond debate code for disenfranchise the voter.
To pretend otherwise is to lie.
DNF (755a85) — 7/21/2016 @ 8:43 pmTo put it in perspective: do you want a crummy President who is surrounded by Republican advisors, or a crummy President who is surrounded by Democrat advisors? But it isn’t that close by my calculations, I don’t think Trump will be nearly as crummy as Hillary.
Ken in Camarillo (17aa36) — 7/21/2016 @ 10:49 pmAnd that nominee broke it, thereby releasing the others from any obligation.
The sole purpose of the pledge was to keep Trump from going 3rd party. The moment he made it clear that it would not serve that purpose, it stopped being binding on anybody.
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:29 pmHuh? You’re insane. How can a voter disenfranchise himself by voting as his conscience tells him?
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/21/2016 @ 11:30 pmI watched the video Dana. Cooper tried to lead Trump into disavowing the pledge, put he didn’t jump.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/22/2016 @ 12:08 amThe headlines and editorializing just our friends in the media trying to push him off the cliff after the fact.
He said “No, not anymore”. What greater renunciation could there be? And that released anybody of any obligation to endorse him.
Milhouse (5a188d) — 7/22/2016 @ 5:06 am#18
Ditto
joe (debac0) — 7/22/2016 @ 6:31 amcruz was given some very poor advice, you would think jeff roe was in trump’s pay, it got him to the playoffs, but he couldn’t make the sale,
narciso (732bc0) — 7/22/2016 @ 6:39 amLet me be clear,
no one has contested the claim that the RNC and Trump knew what Cruz was going to say,
and apparently gave at least tacit approval.
Cruz said everything he needed to say to “give permission” for his supporters to vote for Trump,
and then Trump and the RNC double-crossed him with the chanting and booing.
That is what Trump supporters are backing, a double-crossing work with the DC insiders to get rid of one of the few people who actually opposed Obama.
Yes, Clinton is worse,
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/22/2016 @ 6:56 amI would rather be bit by a copperhead than a fer-de-lance,
but that is a pretty poor choice to be given.
What a cute premise. So the next time Cruz endorses a person and asks people to vote for that person, he’s completely abandoned the premise. It’s kind of like “Black lives matter”, what you don’t believe the lives of black folks matter? So cute.
Jcurtis (8bde3d) — 7/22/2016 @ 7:07 amI love how Trumpsters find insult in the blanks, and blank out the express insults by Trump.
GFYourselves. That’s an express insult. I said it, not Cruz.
Steve Malynn (4bc33a) — 7/22/2016 @ 7:11 amIn some ways it is a waste of time
MD in Philly (784e1c) — 7/22/2016 @ 7:23 amrepeating the obvious and true,
but then again such is the responsibility in times
when otherwise lies are left unchallenged.
back to reality,
https://twitter.com/Rita_Katz/status/756223086580666368
as that british statesman put it ‘events dear boy’
narciso (732bc0) — 7/22/2016 @ 7:31 amWow dude. Everyone watched the video and knows you’re a liar now. Well done.
Dustin (ba94b2) — 7/22/2016 @ 7:36 amlet me not tip toe, both you dustin and our host, was victimized by a thug, empowered by the regime, who doesn’t seem to be bothered by attacking law enforcement, you think there would be more or less of this under red queen?
narciso (732bc0) — 7/22/2016 @ 7:43 amI don’t get this. Trumpers attack Cruz for supposedly not honoring a pledge, while supporting a candidate who explicitly promises to toss one treaty in the wastebin (Nafta) and to honor another treaty only if he feels like it (Nato).
I guess this means that Trumpers think pledges are important only when they want them to be.
kishnevi (0cb353) — 7/22/2016 @ 7:58 amand a pieced together ransom note of three word quotes to complete the sorry presentation.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/22/2016 @ 8:00 amA video whose dog don’t hunt and …
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/22/2016 @ 8:01 amThe only thing this kerfuffle did was make “Cruz and Lee Harvey Oswald”, and “Cruz punches wife” the first two categories in the search engine auto complete.
Cruz’ moment is over. I think we’ve all got better things to do — or at least things we have been avoiding doing instead.
Senator Cruz isn’t on the ballot. Even in Texas.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/22/2016 @ 8:08 am137, nafta and nato weren’t Trump pledges. I’ll toss your pledges all day long.
Jcurtis (8bde3d) — 7/22/2016 @ 8:20 amNo, jcurtis, they are pledges made by this country. And supreme law of the land. Says that right there in the Constitution of the United States of America.
Trump thinks we should dishonor those pledges. Perhaps we should. There are actually good arguments that we should.
But if a major component of your policy is dishonoring pledges, then you have no right to criticize others for dishonoring pledges. Especially if (like Cruz) they did not.
kishnevi (0cb353) — 7/22/2016 @ 8:28 amYes, narciso,
Kruschev is better than Stalin,
Just remember that you are not even getting Gorbachev.
Yes, Trump is the less despicable of the two,
but I am not going to pretend he is anything more.
I would expect our odds over the next four years under Trump will probably be more survivable than under Clinton. But if he does as badly as I fear, we might not be able to replace him with something better, but give it up to another D.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 7/22/2016 @ 8:59 amKruschev was Stalin’s point person in the liquidation of partisans in the Ukraine, Godwin violation on the 20 yard line,
narciso (732bc0) — 7/22/2016 @ 9:03 amFor a lot of Ukrainians, the current Kremlin seems to be picking up where he left off in Donetsk.
Fun fact: Donetsk has gone through several name changes. I’d known it used to be called Yuzovka (and Stalino during another colourful period in Russian history), but it was originally founded as Hughesovka in the mid-19th century.
If this name sounds a little curious to you, there’s good reason for that: it was founded by a British industrialist, John Hughes, and settled by Welsh miners and shipping workers.
Can’t help but think an Anglo-Welsh protectorate would go a long way to simplifying Ukraine’s issues with Moscow.
JP (bd5dd9) — 7/22/2016 @ 10:23 am