Patterico's Pontifications


Trump Calls for Women to Be Punished For Abortion, Flip-Flops, Absurdly Denies Flip-Flop

Filed under: General — Patterico @ 6:08 pm

Today, Chris Matthews asked Donald Trump if women should be punished for having an abortion. After trying to avoid the question, Trump looked to the side, clearly thinking about it for the first time on the spot, and said yes. The money part comes at 1:32:

MATTHEWS: Do you believe in punishment for abortion? Yes or no? As a principle?

TRUMP: The answer is . . . that . . . there has to be some form of punishment.

MATTHEWS: For the woman?

TRUMP: Yeah, there has to be some form.

When he says “there has to be some form of punishment,” his tiny right hand comes down in a chopping motion, as if to say: I just made the decision.

I told my wife he’d walk it back within hours. Lo and behold:

Donald J. Trump Statement Regarding Abortion

If Congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman. The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb. My position has not changed – like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions.


This is, of course, far from the first time that Trump has told a lie so brazen it makes the attentive voter laugh out loud at his chutzpah. Allahpundit links a good article at The Federalist on Trump’s gaslighting of America:

The term “gaslighting” comes to us from a play called “Gas Light,” written in 1938 by British playwright Patrick Hamilton. The play focuses on an abusive husband in the 1880s who convinces his wife that she is going crazy. One of his methods is lowering the gaslights and telling her it hasn’t gotten any darker. It’s all in her imagination.

Donald Trump has been playing this game on the American people, or at least a meaningful portion of it, for five months now. Telling us that Trump University was a success. Telling us that he only worked with the mafia because everyone in his business had to. Telling us that his campaign manager Corey Lewandoski never touched Breitbart reporter Michelle Fields. Then telling us so what if he touched her.

The Secret Service said nothing happened. They were concerned about that pen, it could have been a bomb. She was grabbing me, you can see from this screengrab where I’m actually reaching into my jacket pocket. I’m self-funding, but my FEC statements say I have taken in seven million dollars. I don’t solicit donations. Never mind the button on my Web site that says donate. I didn’t condemn David Duke because of a bad earpiece. I don’t know who David Duke is, even though I quit the Reform Party because of him. I’ve been audited every year, for twelve years, two or three years, the last four or five years, and I’ll give you a letter to prove I’ve been audited, and when you ask me again next month I’ll promise to give it again. Excuse me! Ted sent out that ad about Melania. And Ted gave people these mailers, it said there’s a voting violation, you can clear it up if you vote for Cruz. I think that’s a flattering picture of Heidi Cruz that I retweeted. I’m changing on H1B visas, no I’m not, but anyway those aren’t for high-skilled jobs, which is a lie but you won’t call me on it. Excuse me!! I never said Marco Rubio was Mark Zuckerberg’s personal senator! Except on my Web site! I didn’t praise China’s crackdown at Tiananmen Square. I just said it was strong, but calling it strong isn’t praise. I was the one who kept saying don’t go into Iraq. OK I said we should invade beforehand, but I changed my mind quickly. Also I always said the way Bush Sr. did it was right. Only that’s not what I told Howard Stern, I said he should have finished the job. I got a small loan from my dad but now I’m worth over $10 billion, even though I got a tax break for middle-income families and admitted under oath that my net worth changes by billions depending on my mood. I own the Empire State Building. I was appalled when Vicente Fox said fuck. If I ever used language like that, people would go ballistic, and if you disagree you’re a fucking pussy. Excuse me! I’m skipping the debate with Megyn Kelly because I have a planned speech. I’m skipping the other debate with Megyn Kelly because I have to raise money for veterans, which they have gotten maybe half of. I’m anti-establishment, but there’s nothing wrong with a little establishment. I think the most important functions of the federal government are security, education (but I hate Common Core and want the states to run it) and health care (but I hate ObamaCare and want health care run privately). I’m against nuclear proliferation but it’s not a contradiction to say give nukes to South Korea and Japan. Nobody’s more supportive of women than I am. Excuse me! Nobody knows more about foreign policy than I do, but don’t ask me questions about key terrorists because that’s a gotcha. The Chicago Police told me to call off that rally. Almost everybody who attended Trump University praised it. I personally vetted all the faculty, except I didn’t. Poll after poll says I’ll beat Hillary.

The man lies to your face — constantly, every few seconds — and when you question it, he tells you he’s not.


236 Responses to “Trump Calls for Women to Be Punished For Abortion, Flip-Flops, Absurdly Denies Flip-Flop”


    Patterico (86c8ed)

  2. abortion yawn

    so over abortion

    happyfeet (831175)

  3. You’re also over Trump’s obvious lies, which is far more the point of the post than is abortion. One of the reasons you have zero credibility with rational people.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  4. Q: How do you turn out the Obama coalition to vote for Hillary in the 2016 general election, despite her spectacular negatives as a candidate?

    A: First get the GOP to nominate Trump, and then just let him open his mouth on MSNBC. The only prop the Dems will have to superimpose on this video will be the coathanger.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  5. i like him and plus i like the idea of the odious Team R establishment going into timeout for four years

    given that these are going to be really wretched years it’s probably the best thing that could happen to the tawdry and reviled Republican brand

    and I think Mr. Trump will be a good-enough custodian of the office

    but the important thing is

    oh my goodness we can’t have Hillary in the white house

    you’ve banned all the words to describe her, but i swear she deserves them all

    happyfeet (831175)

  6. Happyfeet – you keep asserting Trump will beat Hillary. Trump keeps asserting the same. There is ZERO evidence of that assertion having any merit.

    JD (34f761)

  7. There’s ZERO evidence behind the idea that Ted can do better against Hillary.

    And Mr. Trump is far more battle-tested.

    happyfeet (831175)

  8. Happyfeet – you keep asserting Trump will beat Hillary. Trump keeps asserting the same. There is ZERO evidence of that assertion having any merit.

    That’s actually one of the gaslighting lies.

    There’s ZERO evidence behind the idea that Ted can do better against Hillary.

    Except virtually every poll to consider the question.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  9. Except that today he gave the election to Hillary should he be the GOP nominee.

    (Credit where credit is due: Dana said it first.)

    nk (dbc370)

  10. Ted’s losing against Hillary and he’s experienced a tiny fraction of the barrage what’s been unleashed on Mr. Trump.

    happyfeet (831175)

  11. Abortions weren’t legalized in New York until 1970. In the 1950s and 1960s, New York State was a famous travel destination for pregnant women from elsewhere — women seeking safe and private abortions that were available there, albeit still nominally illegally.

    From 1959-1963, Trump attended boarding school at New York Military Academy; like most of its students, he’d been sent there by his rich daddy because he was a habitual disciplinary problem. While there, he had a reputation:

    As a maturing teenager, he began to exhibit some of the traits the world would come to know through his fame as a real estate mogul, reality TV star and White House contender. Even at an academy renowned for imposing strict standards on its cadets, Trump often managed to play by his own rules. He often left campus on weekends and drew the envy of fellow students for his habit of bringing attractive women to the school. He also stirred resentment from some in his orbit.
    Trump often brought young women to the school — although they weren’t allowed as far as his room — earning him the title of “Ladies’ Man” in his senior yearbook.

    “They were beautiful, gorgeous women, dressed out of Saks Fifth Avenue,” remembers George White, a former cadet who at the time spelled his last name Witek.

    Trump describes his time at the academy as a crucible in which he proved himself and learned to lead.

    (That last paragraph just cracks me up. Not relevant to my point, but just so incredibly and despicably typical of Trump.)

    Every closet in Trump Mansion has a skeleton. And the only thing that we can be sure of about the Dems’ opposition research is: They’re saving all the good stuff until Trump locks up the GOP nomination.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  12. But the American public has been conditioned to accept “gaslighting”,
    the world loves us more than before, my foreign policy is working, the economy is getting better, I will have the most transparent administration in history, ObamaCare is working better than expected, Islam is a religion of peace, Bush lied, millions died, Scooter Libby did it, no, he did not have sex with that woman, Bush caused the 08 economic collapse

    MD soon back in Philly (ef31c4)

  13. I’m sorry, Beldar not Dana.

    nk (dbc370)

  14. How many days has it been now since Trump refused to provide his taxes?

    Why does no one care that he’s obviously hiding something from the American voting public in his tax returns? He can’t be hiding it from the IRS — they already have the tax returns — and being audited is no excuse for his continued refusal to provide that basic background information that every important political candidate has universally expected to provide throughout the modern political era.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  15. I have to agree with happyfeet. Trump is battle-tested.

    If the relevant field of battle is the floor of the federal bankruptcy court.

    Cruz’ time at federal court has been spent protecting the constitutional freedoms of Americans in some of the most important SCOTUS decisions of the last two decades. But yeah, he’s completely untested as a bankrupt petitioner.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  16. We’ve always been at war with Eastasian abortion.

    Can you imagine how terrible a Trump administration would be?

    There’s ZERO evidence behind the idea that Ted can do better against Hillary.

    And Mr. Trump is far more battle-tested.

    happyfeet (831175)

    Actually, Cruz has won battles for our civil rights in the US Supreme Court and shut down amnesty as a Senator. He fought his own party leadership, and held strong.

    Trump, on the other hand, was born rich and was so good at failing he has a reserved parking spot at a bankruptcy court. He’s failed to maintain a ton of agreements he’s made in business. I guess he won that battle against the veterans with businesses on Park Avenue, which Trump found undesirable.

    You keep saying Trump is battle tested, but I keep seeing the media go easy on Trump and hard on Cruz, in hopes Trump is the nominee, partly for ratings and party for Hillary. Do you really think that will keep up?

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  17. How many days has it been since Obama refused to release his college records???

    Not arguing with you, Beldar, just sayin’…

    MD soon back in Philly (ef31c4)

  18. you keep acting like good character is some sort of qualification for the failmerican presidency

    it has nothing to do with it

    happyfeet (831175)

  19. Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia.

    The chocolate ration has been increased from 50 grammes per week to 40.

    2 plus 2 equals 5.

    Mitch (bfd5cd)

  20. This is what Trump said last night to Anderson Cooper about his tax returns. Cooper, of course, said okey-dokey, that works for me:

    COOPER: A lot of other candidates have released tax returns. You say you won’t release them because you’re being audited. There are some people who doubt you’re even being audited or have been audited as much as…

    TRUMP: Oh, I can give you a letter for that. Would you like a letter? I’ll give you…

    COOPER: Can you?

    TRUMP: I’ll give it to you, sure, absolutely.

    COOPER: Because some people have raised that as a doubt.

    TRUMP: And only a fool would give a tax return…


    COOPER: So you can offer evidence that you are being audited or have been audited like you say?

    TRUMP: A hundred percent. I’ll give you a letter from the biggest firm in Washington that does my work for me.

    COOPER: All right.

    TRUMP: OK?

    Dana (0ee61a)

  21. You can’t take Mr Feet seriously. He won’t vote anyway. Just a nihilist, despite all his claims.

    Fingers crossed on Wisconsin.

    Caterpillar Cranium must be stopped.

    Simon Jester (3db7ec)

  22. Nobody ever asks him for the audit letters.

    Is an “examination” an audit?

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  23. @ MD [in] Philly (#17): That’s a good point, actually. Trump, IIRC, offered or sponsored some sort of whistleblower bounty promising a big payoff to anyone from Columbia or Occidental or Harvard Law who would leak Obama’s transcripts.

    But now Trump won’t show us his transcripts from Wharton.

    Kerry wouldn’t turn over his transcripts either, IIRC, and it was something of a novelty that both Bush and Gore had done so; I seem to recall that even their respective SAT scores got out. So there’s recent precedent both ways on grades, I suppose. I think they ought to be released, but I can’t make a straight-faced argument that it’s even customary, much less universal, to release them.

    But tax returns are another story. And they’re particularly relevant to Trump, who has never held public office a day in his life, and whose sole qualifications for office, if any, relate to his self-proclaimed business acumen and success. When someone tells you that a sports car has a powerful engine, but they won’t let you look beneath the hood, shame on you for buying that car.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  24. Saddleback caterpillars are quite interesting little fellers.

    MD soon back in Philly (ef31c4)

  25. Whether he’s being audited cannot possibly be a defense to releasing his tax returns. The IRS already has them!

    If he’s being audited, it’s a red flag — not an excuse for him to deceive the American public!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  26. Patterico, how can you insist on contradicting Trump when all these people here are so adamant that whatever he says MUST be true? You’re like the guy in that Orwell book, who keeps saying that 2 plus 2 = 4.

    “Do you remember,” [O’Brien] went on, “writing in your diary, ‘Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four’?”

    “Yes,” said Winston.

    O’Brien held up his left hand, its back towards Winston, with the thumb hidden and the four fingers extended.

    “How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?”


    “And if the party says that it is not four but five—then how many?”


    The word ended in a gasp of pain. The needle of the dial had shot up to fifty-five. The sweat had sprung out all over Winston’s body. The air tore into his lungs and issued again in deep groans which even by clenching his teeth he could not stop. O’Brien watched him, the four fingers still extended. He drew back the lever. This time the pain was only slightly eased.

    “How many fingers, Winston?”


    The needle went up to sixty.

    “How many fingers, Winston?”

    “Four! Four! What else can I say? Four!”

    The needle must have risen again, but he did not look at it. The heavy, stern face and the four fingers filled his vision. The fingers stood up before his eyes like pillars, enormous, blurry, and seeming to vibrate, but unmistakably four.

    “How many fingers, Winston?”

    “Four! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Four! Four!”

    “How many fingers, Winston?”

    “Five! Five! Five!”

    “No, Winston, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are four. How many fingers, please?”

    “Four! five! Four! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!”

    Abruptly he was sitting up with O’Brien’s arm round his shoulders. He had perhaps lost consciousness for a few seconds. The bonds that had held his body down were loosened. He felt very cold, he was shaking uncontrollably, his teeth were chattering, the tears were rolling down his cheeks. For a moment he clung to O’Brien like a baby, curiously comforted by the heavy arm round his shoulders. He had the feeling that O’Brien was his protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was O’Brien who would save him from it.

    “You are a slow learner, Winston,” said O’Brien gently.

    “How can I help it?” he blubbered. “How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.”

    “Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.”

    He laid Winston down on the bed. The grip of his limbs tightened again, but the pain had ebbed away and the trembling had stopped, leaving him merely weak and cold. O’Brien motioned with his head to the man in the white coat, who had stood immobile throughout the proceedings. The man in the white coat bent down and looked closely into Winston’s eyes, felt his pulse, laid an ear against his chest, tapped here and there, then he nodded to O’Brien.

    “Again,” said O’Brien.

    The pain flowed into Winston’s body. The needle must be at seventy, seventy-five. He had shut his eyes this time. He knew that the fingers were still there, and still four. All that mattered was somehow to stay alive until the spasm was over. He had ceased to notice whether he was crying out or not. The pain lessened again. He opened his eyes. O’Brien had drawn back the lever.

    “How many fingers, Winston?”

    “Four. I suppose there are four. I would see five if I could. I am trying to see five.”

    “Which do you wish: to persuade me that you see five, or really to see them?”

    “Really to see them.”

    “Again,” said O’Brien.

    Perhaps the needle was eighty—ninety. Winston could not intermittently remember why the pain was happening. Behind his screwed-up eyelids a forest of fingers seemed to be moving in a sort of dance, weaving in and out, disappearing behind one another and reappearing again. He was trying to count them, he could not remember why. He knew only that it was impossible to count them, and that this was somehow due to the mysterious identity between five and four. The pain died down again. When he opened his eyes it was to find that he was still seeing the same thing. Innumerable fingers, like moving trees, were still streaming past in either direction, crossing and recrossing. He shut his eyes again.

    “How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?”

    “I don’t know. I don’t know. You will kill me if you do that again. Four, five, six—in all honesty I don’t know.”

    “Better,” said O’Brien.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  27. But thanks for that link & quote, Dana, I hadn’t seen it. 😀

    Beldar (fa637a)

  28. Truthfully, I did not make that connection at all, Beldar.
    Admission against interest.

    MD soon back in Philly (ef31c4)

  29. He’ll never turn over those letters to Cooper. But I don’t think Cooper is the type of man to just let that slide, expect him to follow-up.

    Sean (221079)

  30. Kevin, I claim First Orwell Reference honors. 🙂

    Mitch (bfd5cd)

  31. Re transcripts & grades, Al Gore’s showed that he’d gotten five Fs in route to flunking out of Vanderbilt Divinity School. This was a rarely mentioned fact in the mainstream media during the 2000 election; I’ve wondered whether it would have been a much bigger deal even four years later, when the blogosphere and other internet-based alternative media opened up.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  32. It’ll just be a letter from a “DC Attorney, Esquire”.

    nk (dbc370)

  33. If Trump is the nominee, the GOP will come in third behind a candidate to be named later.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  34. Hillary needs to turn the gaslight down when she’s broadcasting in HD.

    That face. The first shar pei president.

    And who cares what a man thinks about abortion if he’s not a judge?

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  35. A mess. Trump learns the hard way that simply the less said about abortion, the better.

    Bugg (3ae93d)

  36. @ Sean (#29): I think there will indeed be a letter. But it will come from Trump’s accounting firm, and will contain generalities about pending disputes with the IRS. It will be utterly substance-free, no more than a page and a half, without exhibits, and entirely irrelevant, because — as I keep screaming — being audited is no possible excuse for Trump’s refusal to share his tax returns with the American voting public.

    Trump will say next week, “And then we released the letter, and everyone in the press looked at it and said, ‘Oh my goodness, this is such a clear and definite letter, we were so wrong, we’re sorry Mr. Trump.'”

    If necessary, he’ll pivot to whatever new planned outrage is queued up to dominate the next news cycle. There is no end to the misdirection.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  37. Kevin, I claim First Orwell Reference honors

    Yeah, see that now. I almost posted that whole section of the book, about how “sane” people tailor their memories to the needs of the Party and give up on their selfish memories and thoughts that contradict the Party’s version of history.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  38. “If Trump is the nominee, the GOP will come in third behind a candidate to be named later.”

    – Kevin M

    John Kasich and the Scolds

    Leviticus (d1292e)

  39. If abortion becomes illegal, abortionists become criminals along with the women who pay them for abortion services. It would be similar to illegal prostitution, both the hooker and the john are guilty of breaking the law and should suffer the appropriate penalties. This is nothing new.

    ropelight (16876d)

  40. OT: Apple wants FBI to disclose how it hacked iPhone.

    This is so that Apple can close the vulnerability and next time the FBI wants a phone opened, Apple can tell them to bugger off again.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  41. Abortion: kid tested, mother approved.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  42. Some moron Trumpkin shill (#38) claims, without support, that it would be “nothing new” for abortion laws to impose criminal penalties on the mother as well as the abortionist.

    This is another ridiculous lie from this ridiculous liar. Instead:

    For 30 years, abortion advocates have claimed—without any evidence and contrary to the well-documented practice of ALL 50 states—that women were jailed before Roe and would be jailed if Roe falls (or if state abortion prohibitions are reinstated).

    This claim rests on not one but two falsehoods:

    First, the almost uniform state policy before Roe was that abortion laws targeted abortionists, not women. Abortion laws targeted those who performed abortion, not women. In fact, the states expressly treated women as the second “victim” of abortion; state courts expressly called the woman a second “victim.” Abortionists were the exclusive target of the law.

    Second, the myth that women will be jailed relies, however, on the myth that “overturning” Roe will result in the immediate re-criminalization of abortion. If Roe was overturned today, abortion would be legal in at least 42-43 states tomorrow, and likely all 50 states, for the simple reason that nearly all of the state abortion prohibitions have been either repealed or are blocked by state versions of Roe adopted by state courts. The issue is entirely academic. The legislatures of the states would have to enact new abortion laws—and these would almost certainly continue the uniform state policy before Roe that abortion laws targeted abortionists and treated women as the second victim of abortion. There will be no prosecutions of abortionists unless the states pass new laws after Roe is overturned.

    This Trumpkin shill has thought through these moral and legal issues with the exact same care and thoughtfulness as Trump himself, which is to say: He pulled this out of his butt.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  43. There are places where women are imprisoned and even stoned to death for abortions. They mostly are operating under sharia law, I gather. Perhaps the Trumpkins would be more comfortable in those countries. They probably also have more pro-plaintiff libel laws (like, you could be beheaded for criticizing the sultan).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  44. Beldar – knowledge of the topic or the law is no hurdle for the true believers.

    JD (a6bc68)

  45. But he has to Beldar! Otherwise he would have to admit he was conned. Vanity prevents.

    Simon Jester (7cc76e)

  46. There are many places in the USA where the infant is punished when the woman seeks an abortion.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  47. happyfeet at #5 says:

    i like him and plus i like the idea of the odious Team R establishment going into timeout for four years

    It seems the mantra this year is, “We need somebody who isn’t part of the establishment.” As if the establishment is a nefarious entity.

    What many fail to realize is that the establishment is nothing but a cumulative reflection of the American people. Yes, politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths, but that is only because Americans want contradictory things! They want a balanced budget, but they don’t want to cut spending or raise taxes! They want the world to be safe, but they don’t want to fight any wars. They want a good school system, but they don’t want to give teachers the ability to enforce discipline. They want low-cost items (which depends on low-cost labor), but no free trade. And on and on.

    Any politician who doesn’t try to please his constituents will get voted out. It’s that simple. The establishment is not trying to thwart the will of the American people. It’s trying to conform to it! I love this quote from Shakespeare: “The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars / But in ourselves…”

    Trump is the unfortunate by-product of our entertainment-obsessed, low-information public. His fans operate on emotion, not reason. And the cult of personality is disturbing.

    norcal (4cfa68)

  48. Beldar,

    There’s no question Trump walked right into a trap and that he was uninformed about where this issue is with pro-lifers. I think Roe should be overturned but I don’t personally support criminalizing early term abortion. It’s just a very complicated moral issue, I just don’t see it as clear cut as many do. But if you do–if you are 100% certain abortion is murder, why the feigned outrage over the premise of providing some punishment for women who seek abortions? It seems if abortion is tantamount to murder then most policies that limits the amount of abortion should at least be considered. Why attack only supply and not demand? Trump’s answer is not irrational or outlandish if one believes abortion is murder or something close to it.

    Old Reader (08f24c)

  49. Old Lying Reader – Trump’s “answer” is no longer operational. He disavowed himself.

    JD (a6bc68)

  50. i like him and plus i like the idea of the odious Team R establishment going into timeout for four years

    If only happyfeet would go into a 4 year timeout.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  51. There’s no question Trump … was uninformed

    Pretty much the way to bet on anything..

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  52. Being uninformed is not an excuse, it’s a fault.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  53. OT: Apple wants FBI to disclose how it hacked iPhone.

    This is so that Apple can close the vulnerability and next time the FBI wants a phone opened, Apple can tell them to bugger off again.

    I think the FBI should tell Apple to bugger off.


    Patterico (86c8ed)

  54. No, to the Trumpkins, it is a virtue.

    JD (a6bc68)

  55. It looks like they are counting on the ignorance of Trump supporters with the non-audit letter.

    Dana (0ee61a)

  56. Beldar, when it comes to seeing the reprehensible core of Shorty, you have always been a step ahead of the rest of us. Although I was uncomfortable with him all along, I hadn’t realized just how morally and intellectually deficient he is. I wouldn’t say that every day has been a revelation, but of late, I’ve marveled at what a loser he is. Is this sorry excuse for a man really out to prove Beldar right beyond a shadow of a doubt? So it appears.

    As your stock, Beldar, has risen, others have fallen. It is fun watching the Shorty-loyalist twist slowly in the wind. Prosecute women who’ve had abortion? Great idea! And then lying about it? An even better idea. You guys own that, too.

    And one final thought. The defense will be “yes, but.” Yes, but I had very good intentions in supporting Shorty. He hates the establishment and so do I. How in the world have sensible conservatives come to believe that good intentions somehow cancel out foolish beliefs/foolish behaviors?

    And, by the way, Shorty hates the establishment because he loves only himself. He doesn’t like you very much either.

    ThOR (a52560)

  57. There is a letter of sorts, here.

    It’s from March 7, and refers to “examinations” and not “audits.”

    Hence the question above.

    I think Beldar’s prediction was right. But I defer to his expertise on this area of essentially civil law. I did well in my tax class in law school, but I have not thought about federal taxation since except to get angry about it.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  58. Ha. Dana beat me to it by three minutes.

    Always hire the best writers for your blog. You just have to get the best people. You have to. You really have to.

    And then make a great deal. I have made such a great deal, believe me. Nobody makes better deals than Patterico.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  59. Nobody, OK? Nobody.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  60. Excuse me!


    Patterico (86c8ed)

  61. Should women be punished for infanticide? Then why not abortion? How much less of a crime is abortion compared to when a woman kills her 3 month old? Is it more of a crime even still when the mother kills her 6 year old child? Show me the graph you have worked out that recommends appropriate punishment according to age of the victim.

    If you want them not to abort, you tie a punishment to it. Otherwise you aren’t a serious person when it comes to law and punishment.

    jcurtis (5055ca)

  62. jcurtis,

    Ask Donald Trump why we should not punish women. That is his position.

    That has always been his position.

    So ask him.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  63. the reality is the machinery of death, must be fed, it’s perhaps the fourth priority in our government, after obamacare, we must destroy the next generation utterly, that is the real point that can’t be spoken,

    narciso (732bc0)

  64. The letter is a cheap appeal to the unwashed masses. It’s main point seems to be: Trump holds interest as the sole or principal owner in at least 500 separate entities operating as part of Trump Businesses.

    What did you say???!! 500 Businesses!! The man is a business genius!! Nobody makes deals like that Donald J. Trump!!

    Tax return? Who needs that? The man is YUGE! And FABULOUS! We’re all gonna be rich!

    Dana (0ee61a)

  65. jcurtis – did you miss where Trump denounced Trump?

    JD (a6bc68)

  66. Bel-dar! Bel-dar! Bel-dar!

    *thinks if he chants Beldar’s name three times he might appear*

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  67. Shit

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  68. Oh my gosh, some body snatcher got Ben Carson! Tonight, on CNN, when asked about Trump’s abortion flip-flop, pretend Ben Carson responded:

    “I don’t believe that he was warned that that question was coming and I don’t think he really had a chance to think about it.”

    I’m beginning to think the man who once appeared to hold core values, strong character and moral fiber in high regard isn’t the same man I just heard speak tonight. Yet again.

    Dana (0ee61a)

  69. Whether he’s being audited cannot possibly be a defense to releasing his tax returns. The IRS already has them!

    The theory is that in releasing them he would be enlisting the help of thousands of tax attorneys and CPAs to assist the IRS in finding additional tax liability. It’s a reasonable position but whether that’s the actual or principal reason he is withholding them is of course questionable.

    Old Reader (08f24c)

  70. Sadly, campaigns actually reveal who people really are. With the whole quiet and uninspiring shtick, Carson seemed sincere at least. But obviously, he’s a piece of garbage like most politicians. Fooled again.

    Patterico (86c8ed)

  71. Dana,

    Please. It’s obvious that DT is not steeped in abortion policy trivia. It’s reasonable to say–look, DT did not know the position of the pro-life movement, the history of anti-abortion laws before Roe, or have a chance to reflect on this ridiculous hypothetical.

    Old Reader (08f24c)

  72. The obsequious way that Trump supporters prostitute themselves to defend his ridiculous gaffes is disgusting.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  73. Ethical conundrum. I don’t remember we Pattericytes covering the topic of punishment for the customers of Planned Parenthood, who willfully partake of PP’s human atrocities.

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  74. Or was the purpose only to find something to hit Trump with?

    papertiger (c2d6da)

  75. You’ll get no argument from the rest of us regarding the limits of Shorty’s knowledge.

    ThOR (a52560)

  76. When he came out and supported Trump, I knew the gig was up. But I still wish I could say that his pathetic attempt to cover up for Trump tonight was beneath him. Sadly, it isn’t. Don’t you hate having your worst suspicions confirmed?

    Dana (0ee61a)

  77. SPQR,

    Call me a whore. I don’t care about DT’s position concerning a hypothetical criminal abortion law. Nobody else should care, either. It’s a mistake because it’s bad optics and changes the subject from his core positions that will appeal to most voters. He really should just defer to generic state rights positioning on these stupid culture war questions.

    Old Reader (08f24c)

  78. I appear as summoned, but I am confused. Could the court reporter re-read the pending question?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  79. When he came out and supported Trump, I knew the gig was up

    Or maybe he is smart enough to realize that Trump was the nominee so that it was important to unite the party and defeat Hillary.

    Old Reader (08f24c)

  80. 61, it sounds like Trump is walking a tightrope between the rational thought of you have to have some kind of punishment to dissuade someone from aborting their children and the establishment idea that you punish everyone else involved except for the person who decides to abort her child.

    Sometimes you get some common sense reason out of Trump because he is not assimilated into the political expediency party-politics culture. It’s actually kind of refreshing.

    jcurtis (5055ca)

  81. Trump is voluntarily running for President, yet when he goofs on policy issues, his sycophants tell us that we’re being too hard on him for not knowing enough about the issues.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  82. I think Examination = Audit to the IRS.

    What does it mean in the 3rd paragraph where it says the tax years 2002-2008 have been closed administratively by agreement “without assessment or payment, on a net basis, of any deficiency.” I think it means the examinations (audits) for those years were completed and closed with Trump owing no net money overall.

    It sounds like a lawyer-like way of saying Trump had to pay money in some years and got refunds in other years. If so, so why say it that way? Audits often result in some additional assessments and penalties. Why go into the tax aspects of the return?

    Finally, it seems to me that the final sentence that “… pending examinations are continuous of prior, closed examinations” is spin to avoid having to produce any returns. In fact, Trump’s purpose for the letter may be that last sentence. I would like to have heard the negotiations between the lawyers and the accountants when they discussed how to word that sentence.

    DRJ (15874d)

  83. It’s obvious that DT is not steeped in abortion policy trivia. It’s reasonable to say–look, DT did not know the position of the pro-life movement, the history of anti-abortion laws before Roe, or have a chance to reflect on this ridiculous hypothetical.

    You are 69 years old and running for President of the United States, therefore, you better damn well know what the politics surrounding abortion are, and you better damn well have had a moral framework and foundation already firmly in place upon which you have developed your own personal views about the sanctity of life and abortion.

    What has he been doing all this time besides making fabulous deals??

    Dana (0ee61a)

  84. abortion trivia??

    If there were ever two words that didn’t belong together in one sentence…

    Dana (0ee61a)

  85. Elections involve close scrutiny of candidates under intense pressure, especially for Republicans. It’s a tough process but it lets us see a little of who they are and what their intellects and temperaments are. Carson and Trump aren’t holding up well.

    DRJ (15874d)

  86. Dana,

    I don’t know your background. But most people–even very successful people–have not thought much about abortion let alone know details like what is the pro-life position on whether to criminalize women who seek abortions. DT gave a common sense answer when pushed, but when he realized it was bad optics and that even pro-lifers don’t support (also for reasons of optics, let’s be real here), he backtracked.

    I’m not spinning this as a positive. He should be more prepared with the details. But to say this means he’s horribly unprincipled or unfit for the presidency, well, I don’t buy that. Nobody should care about this answer one way or another. And it will certainly be irrelevant if you succeed with “nevertrump” and elect Hillary, reducing the number of anti-Roe jurists to one or maybe two.

    Old Reader (08f24c)

  87. well once you get past the minutia of partial birth abortion bans, where do you go, daleiden tried to raise awareness, and a kangaroo court in dallas, snagged him, the gope avoid the subject, as if it was mentioning beetlejuice three times,

    the huntress made no proposal about restricting abortion, but her very presence was shibolleth, her integrity was just more reasons to paint her with every sort of corruption, to threaten her church, to force to choose bankruptcy or the office, she was given a berth at newscorp, but rather quickly she found out they wouldn’t defend her, if anything of their status was on the line,

    narciso (732bc0)

  88. By the way, I watch these tv crime forensic shows sometimes. When the wife hires a hitman to take out the husband, she gets at least as much of a sentence as the dude she hired. As it should be, in my opinion. That should be analogous to the pregnant woman and the abortionist. Otherwise you have to have a rating system according to age of the victim.

    jcurtis (5055ca)

  89. The Trump letter was written by Trump’s attorneys, not his accountants.

    DRJ (15874d)

  90. There seem to be a lot if things Trump has never thought about.

    DRJ (15874d)

  91. If you’re asking about the letter you linked at #56 above, Patrick, here are my impressions:

    Inside address & paragraph 1: This is a letter from lawyers to client, at the client’s request. The client has asked the lawyers to “confirm” certain particulars. The lawyers aren’t saying that these are the important particulars, or anything else beyond these particulars. They’re making no representations to the voting public (although they surely knew Trump would release it, as if they were.)

    Anyone who can hire a lawyer with a letterhead can get a letter like this one, but Morgan Lewis would charge quite a bit for one like this, given who they are and who Trump is.

    Paragraph 2: You’re a really big big-shot, Mr. Trump.

    Paragraph 3: The IRS has been looking at your tax returns every year since 2002, Mr. Trump. They aren’t chasing you for any more money for anything 2008 or early, but they’re chasing you for more than we want to pay them for 2009 and every later year.

    So what? Why does the fact that Trump and the IRS still haven’t agreed if he owes more taxes for 2009 and later years prevent Trump from showing us his tax returns for all of those years?

    Making his tax returns public doesn’t increase his tax liability. And contrary to the ridiculous suggestion of a Trumpkin above, the IRS does not crowd-source its audits. They would be very amused to think that they need any “help” from Trump’s enemies in figuring out whether Trump’s paying all the taxes he owes.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  92. Also: Ditto what DRJ said (#80).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  93. That mention of him being sole or principal owner of at least 500 entities is catnip to Trump supporters. They don’t care one whit about his tax returns because 500! And I guarantee you Anderson Cooper doesn’t care either. The media will not follow up on this because they, like Trump supporters, have to believe that badly.

    Dana (0ee61a)

  94. My apologies for this off-topic, depressing comment: Three first-graders planned to use silica gel packets from lunchtime seaweed to kill a fellow student.

    Do schools feed students seaweed now or is this an Alaska thing? It may be an Alaska thing.

    DRJ (15874d)

  95. “(T)he IRS does not crowd-source its audits.”


    The decision about who to audit is another matter.

    ThOR (a52560)

  96. before 2008, I used to think wolves and bears were the most dangerous predators up there, then I found out about the nutroots, and the subset of strigoi,

    narciso (732bc0)

  97. This Forbes’ contributor says Trump’s returns are audited by the IRS Wealth Squad.

    DRJ (15874d)

  98. Think about the premise of the Trumpkin who argued that Trump’s enemies might be able to go through his tax returns and then persuade the IRS to insist upon more than they otherwise would.

    Let’s suppose that it’s not just a media pool and its hired experts who go through the returns. Let’s pretend that they’re all just put out online, in bulk, without redactions. And let’s pretend that indeed, a team of vigilante CPAs finds all kinds of violations and mistakes which result in Trump having to pay additional taxes in order to comply with the law.

    Why wouldn’t that be a good thing? If he owes the taxes, and by hiding his returns he gets away without paying them, isn’t that a bad thing?

    Why are Trumpkins rooting for the tax cheat to get away with cheating on his taxes? If he’s not a tax cheat, he has nothing to fear; and if he has anything to fear, it’s only because he’s a tax cheat. Releasing his taxes to the public should only worry him if he has things that he needs to conceal.

    Trump’s just relying on the MEGO phenomenon. I’ve rarely had to do tax litigation, and I didn’t like it a bit, because like most of us who aren’t accountants, My Eyes Glaze Over very rapidly on all matters relating to federal income taxes.

    But even if most us us feel like our eyes are glazed over when considering Trump’s federal taxes, that shouldn’t blind us from the obvious: He’s hiding this stuff because he has something to hide there!

    Beldar (fa637a)

  99. Let me amend that italicized sentence:

    Releasing his taxes to the public should only worry him if he has things that he needs to conceal from the public. It can’t affect whether he does or doesn’t actually owe more taxes, and it’s not going to reveal anything to the IRS that the IRS doesn’t already know.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  100. IIRC, even the IRS has already come out and said that nothing prevents Trump from releasing his returns except Trump. This even if he’s being audited.

    Dana (0ee61a)

  101. Frankly, given what we know of IRS corruption, we know Hillary has the returns already.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  102. Trump may have sealed his fate with this CNN fubar … A hunch.

    Rodney King's Spirit (a089dc)

  103. DRJ, thanks for that Forbes link. Near the beginning, the writer asserts:

    Is there any legal impediment to Trump publicly releasing his tax returns? Absolutely not.

    Would any experienced tax lawyer representing Trump in an IRS audit advise him to publicly release his tax returns during the audit? Absolutely not.

    He then proceeds through a facinating and detailed description of the “Wealth Squad” and its audit techniques — not a bit of which offers any reason to suggest that a public release would have any effect whatsoever on the outcome of the audit.

    To the contrary, the way he describes it, even with the full returns, he doubts anyone outside the Wealth Squad would be able to draw any meaningful conclusions about whether Trump has or hasn’t underpaid his taxes.

    His problem is that he’s framed the issue as if he were advising Donald Trump the Private Citizen and Businessman, rather than Donald Trump, the Would-Be Next GOP Presidential Nominee.

    No professional would ever give a private client affirmative advise that he ought to release his tax returns to the general public. So his “absolutely not” assertion is meaningless in this context.

    The question here is: Given the modern political reality that candidates are expected to release their tax returns for review at least by a journalists’ pool (with redactions to protect their personal and financial security), do the audits justify a departure from that political reality?

    And the answer to that question — the only one that’s relevant — is “No, absolutely not!”

    Beldar (fa637a)

  104. @ SPQR (#99): Exactly! Trump won’t release them now, but the Dems will damn sure get them leaked or otherwise released before the general election.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  105. DRJ, one more thing: Reading that Forbes piece about the “Wealth Squad” makes me so much more enthusiastic about Ted Cruz’ promises to abolish the IRS and go to a simple, transparent flat tax.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  106. This fellow calls it the Rich Squad instead of the Wealth Squad. He also says it started in 2009. That’s a coincidence. That’s the starting year for Trump’s returns tgat are still under audit. I figured the audits went back 7 years because of limitations but maybe it’s because of this, too.

    DRJ (15874d)

  107. The Wealth Squad gets results.

    DRJ (15874d)

  108. Why wouldn’t that be a good thing? If he owes the taxes, and by hiding his returns he gets away without paying them, isn’t that a bad thing?

    Beldar, you’re a lawyer, you know these things aren’t black and white, just because the IRS has an argument you owe more taxes does not mean you’re a tax cheat. But it’s fair to say Trump is balancing the public interest in seeing his tax returns over his own personal financial interest (less taxes). It’s a fair criticism but he might simply not want the political headache. It’s important to keep in mind there is no obligation to release tax returns, just a tradition in the name of transparency, correct?

    Old Reader (08f24c)

  109. @ DRJ: Doncha know that there are a handful of private tax lawyers and accountants whose firms market them aggressively to their wealthy clients thusly: “This is Bob Jones, he just joined our firm. Previously, he was with the IRS’s Global High Wealth Industry Group!” (Wink wink, nudge nudge.)

    One hand washes the other.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  110. You coukd also say Trump has an incentive not to resolve his tax issues during the campaign, so he has a reason not to release his returns.

    DRJ (15874d)

  111. I’m not sure I followed that (#108), DRJ. Say it again another way, perhaps?

    Beldar (fa637a)

  112. Here’s some trivia: The Trump letter is signed by two tax partners at Morgan Lewis in DC. Remember when Lois Lerner planted a question at a conference so she could reveal the IRS had targeted the Tea Party and conservative groups? The questioner was a tax partner at Morgan Lewis in DC. However, the Trump attorneys have an office at a different address in DC than the Lerner attorney. The tax practice areas are different, too.

    Ted Cruz was also a Morgan Lewis attorney, working out of the Houston and DC offices but he did Supreme Court and appellate work, not tax work.

    I’m not suggesting this means anything other than trivial interest.

    DRJ (15874d)

  113. Hewitt had an interesting discussion with Ted Cruz today about current RNC Rule 40, the “Eight-State Rule.” The best part:

    HH: Are you going to instruct Ted Cruz loyal members of the rules committee to fight any change to Rule 40?

    TC: Well, I think the delegates are naturally going to know that rules changes designed to subvert the will of the voters are a bad idea. And I would expect the delegates who were elected supporting me would have that thought. But I would also expect the delegates supporting Donald Trump would have that thought, that we need to respect the will of the voters. And if it comes to a contested convention, where I’ve got a ton of delegates, and Donald Trump has a ton of delegates, then the issue will be decided on who can earn a majority. And it’s worth noting these delegates are by and large elected by the people in their respective states, and that’s how the rules work. And to win the nomination, you have to earn a majority. And that’s what the convention will be for if no one can get to a majority before the convention.

    HH: So we’re making a little news here, because you’re being much more clear than anyone has been thus far in the process leading up to this. You want to deny John Kasich the opportunity to be on the ballot under the current rules, even though he’s a home state governor and it’s in Cleveland. Is that a good idea, Ted Cruz?

    TC: Well, let’s be clear. It’s not me denying John Kasich anything. He keeps losing. He went 0-27. It’s the voters who voted against him in 27 states in a row. Then he won his home state, and then he proceeded to lose two more states, Utah and Arizona. He is not going to win Wisconsin next week. And if you lose state after state after state, under the rules, you don’t get to be on the ballot. Elections have consequences. If you want to be the Republican nominee, the answer isn’t to go to Washington and convince a bunch of lobbyists that you’ll support business as usual. The answer is to win at the ballot box.

    Beldar (fa637a)

  114. Beldar, I really am starting to think that Trump’s campaign is all about making sure HRC gets elected. Lots of Trump’s cronies would benefit. And so would he.

    I would not be at all surprised that something awful and disqualifying about Trump is being hidden so that if he gets nominated, poof!

    As it stands, his candidacy has worked to drive up Democratic interest in voting because of the bully boy blowhard and pretty schizoid antics.

    Simon Jester (7cc76e)

  115. Sorry, Beldar. It would help if I didn’t have so many typos but I refuse to wear bifocals.

    Trump has unresolved tax issues from 2009 forward as the letter says. As I read the letter, it also says he had issues from 2002-2008 that he settled with the IRS. At some point, Trump will either settle the issues in the 2009-2015 audits or there will be litigation. Past history suggests they will settle.

    My thought was what if Trump doesn’t want to settle and instead wants to continue the audits, as an excuse to avoid releasing his returns?

    DRJ (15874d)

  116. Oh — I certainly agree that Trump’s in no hurry for the audits to be concluded, by settlement or otherwise! Yes, it’s his fig leaf (to use a disgusting metaphor, given its target).

    Beldar (fa637a)

  117. Among the 4 billion pages of tax code, there must be a stipulation that the squirrel nesting on top of his head is required to file a separate tax return.
    Hmm…maybe The Donald is claiming the squirrel as a dependent.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  118. I’m starting to wonder, given Trump’s frequent self-inflicted wounds when answering questions, whether he actually hears them. He is, IMHO, vain enough to eschew a hearing aid if he needed one.

    Either that, or he’s trying hard to blow up his own campaign. I’m seriously starting to wonder of that might be the case.

    Arizona CJ (da673d)

  119. The real shame of it all is that an enormous element of the electorate would not hold it against DT if the tax returns yielded dozens of facts which directly contradicted his assertions as to his enormous…wealth.

    Ed from SFV (3400a5)

  120. Carson did not fool happyfeet.
    happyfeet called him a “lispy fruit-loop” from the beginning.
    hppyfeet was being kind.
    I did not like Carson either.
    He’s a brain surgeon.
    With brain surgeons the MD stands for Mad Doctor.
    You don’t want to know what one of them did to me.
    Or see the scars.
    But they will always be there if you need proof.

    nk (dbc370)

  121. This won’t save ted the pervert. he will have to go back to his black tranny hookers! D.c. madam’s lawyer has the goods on ted the perv!

    ted likes trannys (c0b029)

  122. This is not a flip flop. This is the ephemeral, stream-of-consciousness policy on the fly of Trump. No fore thought, no consistency, no principles.

    JMDavis (4394b0)

  123. the way a True Republican backhands a failmerican woman for having an abortion is

    they take away her choice for to have one

    Mr. The Donald needs to get with the program

    happyfeet (831175)

  124. Following up on my comment 80, I think the reason for the sentence that “without assessment or paymrnt, on a net basis, of any deficiency” for tax years 2002-2008 is so Trump can say he was audited for those years but paid no net tax. The implication is that even though the IRS audits him, he always wins.

    DRJ (15874d)

  125. Oh, nk, I am so sorry.

    DRJ (15874d)

  126. Anyone who solicits a criminal act is a co-conspiriter not a victim-or am I missing something.

    pinandpuller (0845e7)

  127. Yes, P&P, and conspiring to commit an illegal act is also a crime.

    ropelight (86a284)

  128. everyone needs to stop conspiring to do the crimes

    this is getting out of hand

    happyfeet (831175)

  129. A guy takes his wife to an illegal abortion doctor and pays the man. Is he a victim too?

    Abortion is murder. Soliciting a hitman is illegal. Soliciting an abortion from a doctor where abortion is illegal should be a crime.

    A judge should consider mitigating circumstances, like was the unborn child a raging alcoholic?

    pinandpuller (0845e7)

  130. Calling a woman who aborts her baby a victim is like the people who call the Menendez brothers victims because they were were orphaned.

    pinandpuller (0845e7)

  131. Male victims of illegal prostitution get arrested, their pictures in the paper and oftentimes they get fired from their job.

    Near as I can tell the dividing line between prostitution and abortion is the cervix.

    pinandpuller (c16705)

  132. They need to set up illegal abortion stings for women.

    When they show up at the place the women get arrested for soliciting an illegal abortion before they actually become victims.

    pinandpuller (c16705)

  133. Thank you, DRJ.

    Just for the record, though, I am not keeping a herd of man-eating pigs. 😉

    nk (dbc370)

  134. I think Carson was what we thought he was…
    But I don’t know if a body snatcher got him, or he did get some kind of slow brain infection from a needle stick or what.

    I saw him 20 years or so ago giving a medical talk, he was the quiet straight talking person then.

    MD not exactly in Philly (91f737)

  135. The WaPo used the same vid clip shown above but without mention of Trump’s subsequent performance of a triple Salchow. The poll which is the apparent focus of the piece was conducted two weeks ago yet the piece is designed to highlight Trump’s support of his thug as well as his desire to punish women.

    I found the most interesting polling tidbit to be his 52% disapproval rating among non-college whites – his theoretical “base”.

    Rick Ballard (edb5cf)

  136. pinandpuller, you really aren’t helping …. Well, any candidate.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  137. I wish I had half this guy’s luck. If I said half the things things this guy said.

    Well, first, I wouldn’t say nearly half the things this guy says. Especially the fraudulent parts which are actionable.

    But I would have talked my way into prison, if I talked like him.

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  138. “Anyone who solicits a criminal act is a co-conspiriter not a victim-or am I missing something.”

    – pinandpuller

    Just, you know, the words of the candidate you support. Words that state that “the woman is a victim in this case.”

    Leviticus (efada1)

  139. There’s good in everybody. Who would have thought “Obama-makes-me-tingle” Matthews would be the one to shlong our badgerheaded RINO?

    nk (dbc370)

  140. You say that nk, but if you were you would disclose. Meanwhile the salafi proselytizing in Belgian prisons, yields the expected results.

    narciso (732bc0)

  141. SPQR

    I don’t care about who it helps or hurts. Can you answer why a woman soliciting a crime should be considered a victim? The only one I can think of is statutory rape.

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  142. Trump is a bullshitter. That’s the key. He will never say the words, “I don’t know.” If the truth makes him look bad, he’ll make something up. If he has no idea, he’ll make something up. He’ll just keep talking. Meaningless phrases flow constantly, a wall of bullshit that distracts from his lack of anything except ego.

    I think that he would be a terrible president, but if it comes down to him or Hillary, I’ll hold my nose and vote for him. The country may flounder under him, but Hillary will destroy us.

    As an aside, why not simply ignore happfeet. It’s obviously a composite identity, operated by one Dem party apparatus or other with the goal of irritating anyone to the right of Bernie.

    bud (791f49)

  143. Leviticus

    The Good, The Bad and The Ugly (Oud Cover) Ahmed Alshaiba

    Hate is expensive and unlike Donald Trump I’m not rich enough to afford it.

    PS I haven’t checked this guy to see if he’s Muslim and I couldn’t care less.l

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  144. That last was from instapundit,

    narciso (732bc0)

  145. Simple-minded Trump; simple-minded Trumpaloolas. Gosnell and the young women whose babies he was butchering are not equal, and the Planned Parenthood baby parts distributorships are in a different category from their patients too.

    nk (dbc370)

  146. … and intellectually, it is dishonest to vilify Trump for what he said.

    Fact is if something is illegal, there should be a punishment for engaging in the activity. If there is no punishment then the word “illegal” means absolutely nothing.

    How ANY1 here with all the Law and Order types would disagree is beyond the pale. Again more FAN BOI fanaticism on the Cruz side.

    U can argue the political optics of what he said and how stoooopid he is for allowing himself into dumb hypotheticals but still.

    Clearly if something is illegal and two parties are engaged willingly in it — then both deserve some form of punishment.

    Rodney King's Spirit (a089dc)

  147. No one in the media deserves any credit whatsoever for the process of deflating the gasbag which they inflated. That is way too close to giving the idiot who started a dumpster fire a medal for putting it out.

    Rick Ballard (edb5cf)

  148. “intellectually, it is dishonest to vilify Trump for what he said.”

    – Rodney King’s Spirit

    What Trump “said” was “X and (~X),” which either makes him a Buddhist monk or a shameless liar. And Buddhist monks tend to shave their heads.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  149. Its not dishonest to vilify Trump for being an idiot that walked into a trap question. And for his bizarre way of pretending his position didn’t change when he makes up stuff.

    Trump supporters are aiding this clown show.

    SPQR (a3a747)

  150. No, no, no, RKS, women who abort their babies are sacred cows. They’re above the law, practically saints or maybe vestal virgins, roll models for American girls to stay off the welfare rolls. They’re the finest flower of virtuous womanhood – hear them roar!

    ropelight (86a284)

  151. Nk

    I’m aware that there are such things as illegal abortions while abortion is generally the law of the land.

    I’ve heard bits and pieces of the Chris Matthews interview on the radio. My understanding of DT’s comments was about cases where abortion was illegal and women were knowingly participating in an illegal act. Like going to a speakeasy during prohibition.

    I don’t remember the specifics of the Gosnell case. Was it because he was performing abortions where late term abortion was illegal or was it an unlicensed facility like the doctors in Miami who inject caulk in people’s buttocks?

    pinandpuller (928ad9)

  152. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we, the commenters here at Patterico’s, both pro-Trump and anti-Trump, could create a well-reasoned, workable formulation for criminal penalties for abortion. But we are not running for President. And the Manhattan phony failed famously when push came to shove and he was called to put his cards on the table. Proving that his purported pro-life position is as shallow as the layer of Aqua-Net on his combover. But no Trumpolin will accept this. So f*** them! I am only listening to my friends, here.

    nk (dbc370)

  153. Yeah, I thought my point was pretty clear. Trump an idiot for jumping into the scrum for no reason knowing it will be used to hurt him and Republicans. Media People and Hate-Trumpsters also being idiots for not accepting a valid position — if something illegal then t must be punishable in some way.

    As I said, people are out of their minds with the Trump v Cruz thing. Neither side makes much sense to me. Both sides sound like the idiot snowflakes of the Left. Sorry but that is my view. Like trying to have discussion with two raging lunatics on angel dust each foaming at the mouth about half-truths.

    Rodney King's Spirit (a089dc)


    Wonderful Oriental Arabic Chill Out Music – Oud – Le Trio Joubran Roubbama

    I’m just I’m just funnin’ you now. II managed to go a half century without knowing about any of your existence. I think I cam make the second half. But what I learned in the first half is this. It is possible to discern the theological factors that will turn a Muslin into a jihadist.

    Seeing the facts don’t mean I hate. I just see them.

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  155. yes, it was stupid for trump to go on with tweety, as any debate with red queen foundation silver charter members like stephanopolous, et al,

    narciso (732bc0)

  156. it’a not hate, it’s respect for your adversary, conditioned by knowledge, patton had an understanding of rommel, ‘he read his book’ after all,

    narciso (732bc0)

  157. I’m not seeing in the comments any response by “conservative” commenters or the site’s authors to the numerous requests for a reason why, in a post-Roe world, women who seek an abortion in a state where it’s illegal to have that procedure shouldn’t face criminal prosecution.

    Jonny Scrum-half (d7795e)

  158. Hey, what about entrapment? What if a pregnant anti-abortion activist lady cop seeks out an abortionist to perform the illegal act, pays upfront, and then puts the guy in handcuffs and frog marches him off to the jailhouse. Does he have a valid claim of entrapment?

    ropelight (86a284)

  159. The implication is that even though the IRS audits him, he always wins.

    I was speaking with an accountant a few weeks ago saying that the conventional wisdom is that people with large incomes are more likely to be scrutinized and then audited by the IRS. People such as flaky Hollywood celebrities or white-collar professionals with 6-figure incomes. But he said that in actuality the IRS tends to go after the little guy because people with big bucks have more money for lawyers and therefore will put up a bigger fight. The IRS prefers when the odds are stacked in their favor.

    When people — particularly who are among the Democrat faithful — complain about big corporations and love making them sound like the No. 1 boogeyman, I retort that it’s today’s corrupt IRS that, in effect, forces people to pay for its goods and services.

    With the left likely to win the White House in November, America is going to become an even bigger banana republic, with all the dishonesty and corruption that entails, with its government agencies such as an over-stuffed IRS more out of control than ever before.

    RIP, USA.

    Mark (a1ad05)

  160. Three Moses

    “The candidate you support.”

    I voted for him in the primary months ago. The die is cast.

    It doesn’t matter to me what DT says. I’m voting for the R nominee in Nov. I’m definitly not voting Hillary. Its out of my hands till then.

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  161. Or, what about blackmail? Can a pregnant woman get an abortion and then blackmail the abortionist? If she’s immune from prosecution, and the abortionist has performed an illegal act, can she use the threat of exposure to criminal penalties to extort money?

    ropelight (86a284)

  162. #MakingGaslightingGreatAgain

    Nathaniel Wright (f74e42)

  163. Watching the Trumpkins bang every pot and pan in the cabinet in an attempt to shift the narrative away from the shameless, hapless, moronic flailing of Donald Trump would be amusing if it weren’t so depressing.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  164. 153. it’a not hate, it’s respect for your adversary, conditioned by knowledge, patton had an understanding of rommel, ‘he read his book’ after all,

    narciso (732bc0) — 3/31/2016 @ 7:46 am

    It’s not hate. I’ve worked against them. I’ve worked with them. If anybody knows them better I’ll choke on my shwarama.

    Or tabbouleh, if you please.

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  165. I don’t think it’s a secret I was in the Navy.


    Where’s the Navy been the past two decades.

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  166. as I say, I don’t have your experience, just some observations and curiosity,

    akbar ahmed really pulled a fast one, when he coined ‘islamiphobia, he was the political agent in peshawar province once upon a time,

    narciso (732bc0)

  167. Three Moses

    Say, aren’t you a Hillary Supporter?

    I suppose to the resident Patteriquenos this must sound like an argument about the nature of god between Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    pinandpuller (0845e7)

  168. 160. Watching the Trumpkins bang every pot and pan in the cabinet in an attempt to shift the narrative away from the shameless, hapless, moronic flailing of Donald Trump would be amusing if it weren’t so depressing.

    Leviticus (efada1) — 3/31/2016 @ 7:58 am

    I did not choose to be saddled with Donald Trumpl

    But on the other side. Hillary! should at least be in prison. Bernie is not better.

    This whole bleeping epoch is depressing. Did we deserve this? Dunno, maybe.

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  169. I am absolutely not a Clinton supporter. The only way to get me to pull a lever for Hillary Clinton is to have Donald Trump on the same ballot.

    Leviticus (efada1)

  170. so the answer is yes, green eggs and ham,

    narciso (732bc0)

  171. then why isn’t she, because democrats are immune from tax laws, (rangel, turbo tim, daschle),
    from prosecutions for classified information (deutsch, red queen) from other matter (razorback)

    question could the first pillar be considered a reason for the circumstance in instapundit’s link,

    narciso (732bc0)

  172. 166. I am absolutely not a Clinton supporter. The only way to get me to pull a lever for Hillary Clinton is to have Donald Trump on the same ballot.

    Leviticus (efada1) — 3/31/2016 @ 8:14 am

    She can’t be Presidnent. It’s not a partisan thing. I worked with a lot of Democrats, and what you do is set aside your differences and get about to the serious business of defending the country..

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  173. Mark 156,

    Your accountant friend isn’t giving you good information. The more money you make, the more likely you will be audited.

    DRJ (15874d)

  174. DRJ, I don’t think I’ll have to remind you not to fall on your bad side

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  175. I think abortion has become so politicized that our nation can’t even talk about the issue, much like immigration before Trump and the Wall. I would give kudos to Trump for being willing to talk frankly about abortion but he walked back his statement within hours. Sorry, Trump fans, but it isn’t courage to say something and immediately take it back.

    There are prosecutions of mothers for abortions but they primarily occur when women try to self-induce abortion, especially in the second or third trimester. Abortion opponents see it as a safety issue and some probably also see it as a legal way to restrict abortion. Abortion advocates see it as an attempt to encroach on women’s choice in the guise of protecting women’s health.

    We could be having these discussions if abortion were illegal, but it’s legal so prosecuting the mother is rarely possible. It’s like discussing prosecutions of people who legally take drugs their doctors prescribed. Should we talk about it anyway? Maybe. It’s interesting in a theoretical way but if Trump himself isn’t willing to spend his political time on it, why should we?

    DRJ (15874d)

  176. Beldar, I really am starting to think that Trump’s campaign is all about making sure HRC gets elected.

    It has been about this since day one. His whole operation is a Bill Clinton plant. The idea was to tear open the GOP’s immigration divide, and it worked admirably. No one expected him to go this far, just to roil the GOP so badly that their nomination process was disrupted and unity was hard to find.

    If Trump gets the nomination and there is no “real Republican” alternative, I’d expect a late October meltdown that will essentially leave HRC running unopposed.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  177. She can’t be President. It’s not a partisan thing. I worked with a lot of Democrats, and what you do is set aside your differences and get about to the serious business of defending the country..

    you are very perspicacious i do not know why it’s so hard for some people to see this

    happyfeet (a037ad)

  178. everyone needs to stop conspiring to do the crimes

    Letting Trump anywhere near the White House is a crime. Stop with your conspiring!

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  179. Pregnancy isn’t criminal, its a disease. As such a woman should seek treatment and be given counseling and rehab.

    My name is Michelle and its been six months since my last abortion.

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  180. This really isn’t a debate about what Trump’s position on abortion is. It is part DCLXVI of the discussion “Trump is too ignorant to be President.”

    It is ludicrous that a presidential candidate, six months into a campaign, doesn’t have a position on abortion and “hasn’t thought about it” enough to answer a question in a way that he can stand by at least the rest of the day. That he makes the statement on camera, then insists he never made it a few hours later, then sends out surrogates to say that he was “ambushed” with an unexpected question that he hadn’t thought about just makes a bad situation worse.

    I loved the tweet yesterday about Trump turning an airspace incident into thermonuclear war. It’s pretty much how he handles everything. What an assh0le!

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  181. The Wapo has a poll today saying that Trump’s negatives are at 67%, higher than any major-party nominee in the 32 years they’ve been asking the question. Paywall.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  182. narciso @your 163, should it be I’ll be appropriate I’ll the first to admit I have a lot to learn, if you’re open for comments.a

    Steve57 (08b8c6)

  183. certainly, this is the fellow who came up with it,

    the first pillar is proclamation of the faith,

    narciso (732bc0)

  184. The more money you make, the more likely you will be audited.

    I believe he meant — based on his experience — that the IRS is no less likely to initiate an audit against a filer even if he or she is of modest income and, in turn, to go after him (or her) if his taxes weren’t done properly. The reason is because even though a win for the IRS against the little guy won’t bring in as much money, the auditor is less likely to face an onslaught of top-notch legal challenges that will drag out the case.

    There was a New York Times article about 2 years ago regarding the IRS — due to RICO laws — seizing people’s money even through the agency had no proof of wrongdoing.

    If more and more Americans do fear the government — whose bureaucrats have done better over the past 20 years in terms of income, benefits and vacation time compared with the way private-sector working stiffs have fared — they have every reason to feel that way. Yet much of the electorate is as nonsensically liberal today as it has ever been.

    Venezuela or Argentina Syndrome, coming to a theater near you.

    Mark (6c93d5)

  185. Hey, Steve57, you gotta see the new Bill Whittle Afterburner “Under the Sea on the USS Pasadena”. It’s great.

    Imam Hoagie ™ (e4fcd6)

  186. Your accountant friend isn’t giving you good information.

    DRJ, based on your link to the page, I have a better sense of what the accountant I was speaking with was referring to. The article’s chart shows that the percentage of people being audited who make less than $24,999 per year was, in fact, higher than the percentage of audits of filers above that meager level.

    Mark (6c93d5)

  187. Mark, people who have low income and file returns with proper backup aren’t audited at a high rate, but people who report no taxable income (1.83% of taxpayers) are audited and should get scrutiny. And yet only 5% of those 1.83% are audited. The IRS audits higher percentages of those making over a million dollars a year.

    DRJ (15874d)

  188. Also, look at the chart, Mark. 40% of all returns are people between 1-24,999 income. They are audited at a rate of 0.93%. People making 25,000-49,999 are audited at a rate of .54% but they are only 23% of all returns — about half the number of lower income filers. So it makes sense that half as many are audited.

    DRJ (15874d)

  189. Half as many in percentage, not raw numbers.

    DRJ (15874d)

  190. Mark,

    I did terrible job explaining that but I don’t see how you can hang your hat on a difference of .39%. That’s one-third of 1 percent of returns where the taxpayers showed no taxable income vs other returns.

    Do you actually find that proof low income taxpayers are being targeted? There can’t be any other reason, such as discrepancies in withholding, W-2s, etc.?

    DRJ (15874d)

  191. DRJ, I believe you’re looking at the percentages of audits per-income category incorrectly. The number of people being double checked (ie, audited) by the IRS apparently IS higher for those people making less than $24,999 each year compared with the percentage of people being audited who occupy the next category above that. The number of audits per group is based on the percentage WITHIN each group and isn’t based on the percentage of that group against all other income categories.

    The IRS, for whatever reason, is contacting more people in the lowest-income group and asking for proof their return was correct than people who make more than $25,000 per year. So the accountant I was speaking with, based on his experience, must be aware of situations as ridiculous as that one.

    The US’s wonderful bureaucracy at work and play.

    Mark (6c93d5)

  192. Hey, what about entrapment? What if a pregnant anti-abortion activist lady cop seeks out an abortionist to perform the illegal act, pays upfront, and then puts the guy in handcuffs and frog marches him off to the jailhouse. Does he have a valid claim of entrapment?

    It is only entrapment if she talks him into committing the act after he initially demurs. Since you’ve identified the target as “an abortionist” then, no, it is not entrapment.

    Kevin M (25bbee)

  193. How many days has it been since Obama refused to release his college records???

    Which presidential candidate has ever released his college records? None, as far as I know. Why should 0bama be the first? How are college records legitimate objects of public interest?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  194. Mark (6c93d5) — 3/31/2016 @ 11:17 am

    The article’s chart shows that the percentage of people being audited who make less than $24,999 per year was, in fact, higher than the percentage of audits of filers above that meager level.

    But that’s because of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

    Any questioning of any one item, even if only because it is implausible, or because of contraductory records, and even if only done without people getting together in a room, is considered an audit.

    Sammy Finkelman (0c6103)

  195. The reason the traditional right-to-life position has been to prosecute the abortionist and not the mother who pays him or her is because the RTL movement started with 0th-generation feminists such as Susan B Anthony, who couldn’t imagine that a woman would voluntarily choose to kill her child, and assumed that every woman who seeks an abortion is driven to it by necessity. Thus she should be pitied and helped, while the hit man she hired should be prosecuted.

    Me, I come from a 3300-year-old legal tradition that assigns responsibility for a crime only to the person who committed it, not to anyone who induced him to do so, because the criminal is the one who chose his actions of his own free will. Nothing the other person said or gave him forced him to commit the crime. So I’m not bothered by the fact that in this instance the RTL position (and the actual law in pre-Roe days) was consistent with that of the legal system with which I’m most familiar; I’m more bothered that the law is not consistent with it in other cases.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  196. Milhouse, I think you’re on the right track, but it wasn’t only economic or social necessity that drove women to abortion, it was also the men involved who for a variety of reasons declined responsibility. (Perhaps you intended to include such considerations within your ‘necessary’ category.)

    In any case, it has long been common practice to hold women harmless for their role in abortions. Which is an artifact of outmoded thinking. I disagree completely with the notion that inducing others to commit crimes is beyond the scope of the law. If the Jewish legal tradition fails to comprehend that fact it’s wrongheaded and needs to be revisited and modernized, and it’s high time our elder brothers set about fixing it.

    ropelight (86a284)

  197. Big-ass-orange-caterpillar-head turned border security into a parody.
    Big-ass-orange-caterpillar-head turned national defense into a parody.
    Big-ass-orange-caterpillar-head turned the Republican primary into a parody.
    Now Big-ass-orange-caterpillar-head has turned the abortion debate into a parody.
    And his Big-ass-orange-caterpillar-head-worshipers are giving him ex post facto cover.
    Crawl in a hole and die, Trumpsuckers! Or just drop dead.

    nk (dbc370)

  198. no maverick and flake turned border security into a joke, brown and mxlplk, turned our nuclear program into one, priebus created the hunger games quarter quell, mcconnell has given the same irs you trust, the power to cancal our pastports, trump just rides the anomie better then most,

    narciso (732bc0)

  199. Do you think he pulled anyone who was not already there to the right on those issues? He makes people recoil reflexively from the right.

    nk (dbc370)

  200. if it wasn’t for the carp from brussels to the animas river basin, there would be no need to even mention trump, add the nine million lost policies, thanks mcconnell,

    narciso (732bc0)

  201. Do you think he pulled anyone who was not already there to the right on those issues? He makes people recoil reflexively from the right.

    nk (dbc370) — 3/31/2016 @ 5:42 pm

    Go figure support for a border wall is at an historical low. Anyone who supported Trump on that basis was a fool.

    Trump has some cute fans in this thread, trolling themselves into being intensely sour. Or maybe they were always sour and that’s why they are Trump fans. Old Christoph, which is it?

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  202. Dustin, are you opposed to an effort to establish strong border security in the form of a wall? Or do you prefer the current lack of control over unregulated in-migration?

    ropelight (86a284)

  203. the mexican army, when they are letting the zeta component, tranship their product, are asiduous in blocking influx from their southern border, just simple reciprocity is what we ask,

    narciso (732bc0)

  204. Dustin, are you opposed to an effort to establish strong border security in the form of a wall? Or do you prefer the current lack of control over unregulated in-migration?

    ropelight (86a284) — 3/31/2016 @ 6:11 pm

    I support a wall, ropelight. Manned. This used to be a popular position, but Trump has made this position pretty unpopular. Leadership is a critical skill for a presidential candidate to have. Trump has been effective at a war of attrition because he has loyal support. He has failed to build from there, and in fact has intensified opposition to him in his own party.

    Fields is just a symptom of how Trump builds relationships.

    Dustin (2a8be7)

  205. Thus she should be pitied and helped, while the hit man she hired should be prosecuted.

    But in law isn’t the person who hires the hit man just as guilty, Milhouse?

    Imam Hoagie ™ (e4fcd6)

  206. @204 Dustin

    So you agree he’s good at building walls?

    pinandpuller (0845e7)

  207. I must say, I am amazed. The fine legal minds her are saying Trump was wrong for stating someone who asks someone else to commit an illegal act is exempt from punishment yet the person or persons they ask to perform ILLEGAL acts have the only jeopardy? If an act is illegal, are not all those involved culpable? Not according to you lawyers. No freaking wonder America is in trouble. Cruz is a liar. Want proof, have one of you legal interns review a Trump policy speech, then compare and contrast it to what Cruz says Trump said. Or is lying part of being a “conservative”?

    Zelsdorf Ragshaft III (d8338d)

  208. First of all, Congress ain’t gonna pass no law criminalizing abortion nationwide. Overturning Roe v. Wade will send the issue back to the states, and each state will pass its own law according to the wisdom or folly of its population. You know any state where they will send Kermit Gosnell’s or Planned Parenthoods’s 16-year old mothers to prison? Except maybe Mississippi? You want to end abortion, you don’t ask for laws that don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of passing. The worthless Hillary stalking horse would know that if he wasn’t lying about being pro-life.

    I’ll say this. Trump’s supporter’s are making me rethink my objections to eugenics. Justice Holmes might have been right in Buck v. Bell.

    nk (dbc370)

  209. you want a real issue, not this idiot microagression carp, chew on this,

    but you’ll every player on the other side, lott, livingston, et al, are wired with volodya,

    narciso (732bc0)

  210. You gotta be kidding. The collateral allegations of a complaint in lawsuit by one Ukrainian gangster (how long was the Gas Princess’s sentence?) against another that was dismissed by a federal judge?

    nk (dbc370)

  211. Sorry. My sense of justice sometimes overrides my contempt for Trump. I try not to let it happen too often.

    nk (dbc370)

  212. Wanting to punish the woman having the abortion seems a bit like wnating to stone the woamn caught in adultery,
    yes, the woman was breaking the law,
    but placing the focus of the the intervention on a merciless application of the law does not seem the right direction.

    MD soon back in Philly (b2164f)

  213. #139


    The reason the pro-life movement is not in favor of punishing the mother for an abortion is because the goal is to protect unborn life by reducing/ending abortion. The simple political reality is that treating mothers who terminate their pregnancies as criminals would greatly hamper those efforts. Again, the goal is not to punish the mother, it is to protect the child.

    That said, it is also true that many of these women who procure abortions are, while not victims, dealing with financial and societal pressures. It is not unreasonable to instead target the party to abortion that is motivated by profit: the abortionist. A somewhat analogous situation is the issue of prostitution in Sweden. There, it is LEGAL to sell sexual services, but ILLEGAL to buy them. It is also illegal to operate a brothel, or function as a pimp. This legal regime reflects the understanding that while prostitution may be a social ill worthy of opposition, the sex workers themselves often only turn to prostitution because of dire personal circumstances. Other nations have followed Sweden’s example, including Norway, Iceland, Canada, and Northern Ireland.

    cnh (c9c12f)

  214. abortionists are sweet and innocent they’re just trying to keep abortion womens from going into the alley and doing unspeakable stuff to themselves with unsterilized abortion tools (and a lot of times they forget to bring gauze)

    abortionists abortionists god shed his grace on thee

    abortionists abortionists from sea to shining sea

    happyfeet (831175)

  215. I still have the sneaking suspicion Trump is a joke candidate just running because Bill Clinton dared him. The whole point is to make Republicans look ridiculous.

    Steve57 (40f4f3)

  216. abortionists are sweet and innocent

    And delicious slow roasted over hot coals in an open pit.

    nk (dbc370)

  217. oh my goodness they’re very endangered you know they’re like emperor penguins

    happyfeet (831175)

  218. #215, Steve, Republicans have been doing a pretty good job of making themselves look ridiculous for quite some time now. I’d say from the time George HW Bush raised taxes breaking his ‘read my lips’ campaign promise.

    I’ve got an idea that might catch on – remember the New Orleans Saints who went to the games with paper bags over their heads, ashamed to be seen supporting the ‘aints? Well, Conservatives could wear paper bags when they go the polls to vote GOP. We’ve been holding our noses for years, it’s time we upped the ante – the message obviously isn’t getting through.

    ropelight (5449bb)

  219. Perhaps but last time, he turned over the reigns to pat Buchanan and endorsed romney, he’s been toying with this since 87,

    narciso (732bc0)

  220. April Fool! They taste terrible.

    nk (dbc370)

  221. Nk

    You of course joke about eugenics but there’s always a lot of controversy when somebody tries to pay women to voluntarily get sterilized. I can’t say I’m against anything voluntary.

    Maybe in a world where abortion was criminalized women perps could be sentenced to birth control during their probabtion and job training.

    But its all moot, no?

    pinandpuller (a12946)

  222. Nk

    This topic reminded me that back in the 90’s I went out with some locals and protested at an abortion clinic.

    We were talking to some counterprotesters and I asked them if they don’t get the abortion in thirty minutes is it free?

    Tough crowd.

    pinandpuller (0845e7)

  223. I think “Perform an abortion, lose your right hand”, strictly enforced, would be all the law we would need in my new fantasy novel published by Trump Publications, David Duke Division. But let’s talk about things that might have a chance of getting us a pro-life Justice appointed to the Supreme Court in 2017. M’kay? Like I said, f**ko turns everything into a parody.

    nk (dbc370)

  224. Parody or reality show?

    “SUPPORT FOR BORDER WALL PLUNGES TO 38%: “Oh, Trump’s moved the Overton Window, all right. Just in the wrong direction,” Ace of Spades writes …..”

    Luke Stywalker (93ee9b)

  225. The reason that Trump Fan Boys aren’t persuaded by Trump’s lack of viability in the general election is because their objective is not to win the White House. Rather, their objective is to blow up the GOP.

    Cruz Supporter (102c9a)

  226. Are there any likely judges in the lower courts that have weighed in on abortion? The hearings are so politicized its hard for them to say much.

    I don’t think 3D sonograms of Hillary’s grandkids have taken her foot off the pedal.

    pinandpuller (0845e7)

  227. Americans are a good and decent people. They recoil reflexively from extremism.

    nk (dbc370)

  228. But in law isn’t the person who hires the hit man just as guilty, Milhouse?

    Did you not read the rest of my comment, which addressed precisely that point?

    Milhouse (87c499)

  229. If an act is illegal, are not all those involved culpable?

    The hirer of the hit man is not at all involved in the crime. The hit man is a moral agent, and decided of his own free will to do the hit. Nobody forced him in any way. That he did it for money only makes him more culpable; it doesn’t implicate the person who offered him the money. But for his decision nothing would have happened.

    That, at least, is the attitude Jewish law has taken to your question for the last 3300 years.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  230. You know any state where they will send Kermit Gosnell’s or Planned Parenthoods’s 16-year old mothers to prison? Except maybe Mississippi? You want to end abortion, you don’t ask for laws that don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of passing. The worthless Hillary stalking horse would know that if he wasn’t lying about being pro-life.

    This too.

    And that really is the point here. Trump’s entire act has been to say what he thinks a Republican would say. But his image of a Republican is the parody of one that exists only in the mind of a “progressive” Democrat. He has this idea of what Republicans are like, and tries to model his answers on that. Democrats have claimed for decades that pro-lifers want to throw women in prison for obtaining abortions. It never once occurred to him that this claim was false, until he was told so.

    The same thing happened when he was asked about David Duke’s endorsement. The Bizarro™-image of a Republican that lives in his head would not have rejected such an endorsement, so he didn’t.

    That image of a Republican in his head loves violence, so he has encouraged violence; he’s entirely unaware that until this year political violence in America was entirely a phenomenon of the left. Thanks for ruining that, a*****e.

    And the same applies to anything he says. First he asks himself “If I were really a Republican what would I say”, and he says that. But the image of a Repblican that lives in his mind is very different from the reality, so he comes across as he does.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  231. My sense of justice sometimes overrides my contempt for Trump.

    And so it should. By sheer coincidence he’s bound to be right on occasion. When the blind pig finds an acorn, it should be allowed to enjoy it.

    Milhouse (87c499)

  232. oh my goodness they’re very endangered you know they’re like emperor penguins

    Like “Northern Spotted Owls”, they’re not a separate species, you know. They’re absolutely identical with normal human beings, and thus are not endangered.

    Milhouse (87c499)

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