Open-Carry At GOP Convention: A Sound Or Misguided Idea?
[guest post by Dana]
A few days ago, a blog called Hypernationalist began an online petition to allow the open-carry of firearms at the GOP National Convention in Cleveland this July:
In July of 2016, the GOP will host its convention at the Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland, Ohio. Though Ohio is an open carry state, which allows for the open carry of guns, the hosting venue—the Quicken Loans Arena—strictly forbids the carry of firearms on their premises.
According to the policy on their website, “firearms and other weapons of any kind are strictly forbidden on the premises of Quicken Loans Arena.”
This is a direct affront to the Second Amendment and puts all attendees at risk.
The petition currently has 45,000+ supporters.
Referencing a 2012 report by Forbes that listed Cleveland as the ninth most dangerous place to live in the U.S., and by not allowing open-carry, sponsors of the petition believe that both the GOP and Quicken Loans Arena will be putting citizens at increased risk, both inside and outside the arena, by not allowing open-carry. They also cite the possibility of an ISIS attack as another reason to allow attendees to be armed. Consider that the arena holds 20,000 people, and the GOP expects 50,000 attendees over 4 days of the convention, thus if there were an attack and the attendees were unarmed and unable to defend themselves, the loss of life could be enormous. Post-Belgium, GOP organizers and law enforcement have stepped up efforts to make sure the convention will be secured.
And today, in response to the petition, the Secret Service announced that convention attendees will not be allowed to carry guns into the arena.
Over at NRO, Charles Cooke, passionate defender of the Second Amendment, explains why he believes the move for open-carry at the convention is misguided. Here is a sampling:
First: There is no Second Amendment violation here. The Second Amendment is a check on government, not on private entities. The Quicken Loans Arena is a private corporation. If the arena’s rule is no firearms, then those who wish to use it must abide by that rule. And if they don’t like it, they can go somewhere else.
Second: As absurd as the idea of “gun free zones” is in a country with this many firearms, there are certain circumstances in which it is prudent to try to limit the presence of guns. It has always been ridiculous to hear progressives predict that widespread concealed carry would lead to frustrated shoppers shooting each other in the supermarket or to irritated customers opening fire at the bank; and it has been hilarious to witness the freakout we see each year when the press learns that NRA members may pack heat at their annual convention. But a political convention strikes me as being less akin to those examples, and more akin to, say, the circumstances that obtain at a polling place. And the argument against carry strikes me as being less “people will shoot each other for no reason” and more “we need to make sure that the results aren’t marred by charges of intimidation.” From the early days of the American Republic, certain “time and place” restrictions have been imposed upon the right to bear arms, especially when the integrity of democracy was perceived to be at stake. Delaware’s 1776 Constitution, for example, made clear that:
“To prevent any violence or force being used at the said elections, no person shall come armed to any of them, and no muster of the militia shall be made on that day; nor shall any battalion or company give in their votes immediately succeeding each other, if any other voter, who offers to vote, objects thereto; nor shall any battalion or company, in the pay of the continent, or of this or any other State, be suffered to remain at the time and place of holding the said elections, nor within one mile of the said places respectively, for twenty-four hours before the opening said elections, nor within twenty-four hours after the same are closed, so as in any manner to impede the freely and conveniently carrying on the said election: Provided always, That every elector may, in a peaceable and orderly manner, give in his vote on the said day of election.”
This does not strike me as an unconscionable “affront” to the right to keep and bear arms, nor as a rule that is likely to “puts all attendees at risk,” especially given that security will already be tight in Cleveland.
And then there is the issue of trust and risk:
Third: Given the brazen manner in which Donald Trump has encouraged physical violence against those who have protested at his rallies — “next time, we might have to kill him,” one Trump fan warned a man he sucker punched — there is pretty much no incentive for the Quicken Loans Arena team to be generous here. Generally speaking, I am of the view that trying to stop shootings by putting up signs is the most abject of human folly. But with this guy? As is the case with most of the pillars of free and civil society, liberalized carry laws presume a certain degree of responsibility and trust — a degree that has, alas, not been on display from Trump and the more excitable among his followers.
As far as I can tell, Donald Trump is the only GOP candidate who has been asked about the petition. Trump, who warned of possible rioting by his supporters if he doesn’t leave the convention as the nominee*, would like to know the details before making a full comment:
“I have not seen the petition. I want to see what it says. I want to read the fine print.”
(*When asked whether he would tell supporters that he doesn’t want to see violence at the convention, Trump said “Of course I would, 100 percent. But I have no control over the people…” Full quote at the link.)
–Dana
Hello.
Dana (0ee61a) — 3/28/2016 @ 2:33 pmthese people are not like you and me
happyfeet (a037ad) — 3/28/2016 @ 2:53 pmFalse flag petition
SPQR (4dc23c) — 3/28/2016 @ 3:02 pmMaybe, but I thought it was an interesting issue. What do you think of Cooke’s position, SPQR?
Dana (0ee61a) — 3/28/2016 @ 3:09 pmI saw Trump’s interview that included that quote. I thought that the question was asked maliciously, and don’t fault Trump for ducking it by saying he’d want to see the details of the petition. The host then asked (my paraphrase, but pretty close), “Forget about the petition, what about the general issue of whether the Second Amendment means delegates should be able to carry weapons on the convention floor?” Trump refused the bait, saying again that he’d want to see the details of the petition before commenting.
This particular exchange on this particular issue — carrying firearms on the convention floor — was probably the only one during the entire interview with which I actually have no fault to find with Trump.
Beldar (fa637a) — 3/28/2016 @ 3:09 pmDana, “gun free zones” with no actual secure perimeter are indeed dangerous. But where there is an actual security perimeter with screening and active security personnel, banning weapons is appropriate.
SPQR (4dc23c) — 3/28/2016 @ 3:17 pmThe right to bear arms and the right to control your property are both important rights. I have patronized many places that forbid open carry, and I see no problem with that position. I would probably ban it in my own business, even though I have a CHL.
We live with many political groups that seek attention via provocation. Trump’s rallies have had violence against protesters who did nothing but ‘offend others’ with speech. Open carry also provides easier access to guns and paints a target on the armed, while concealed carry provides a strong deterrent effect and keeps the advantages with the law abiding gun owner.
I think this is a no-brainer and I’m not surprised Trump wasn’t up to the task of answering the question. I can’t recall him answering a question in a clear and specific manner. I disagree with those who say Trump would need to see the plan to have any sort of answer.
Dustin (2a8be7) — 3/28/2016 @ 3:22 pmI saw that as well, and wrote a post on it. I am a militant supporter of the 2nd Amendment, but even I draw the line here. It is private property after all, and it isn’t like ISIS is going to be able to pull anything there.
Now outside the venue? Sure, why not? Besides, think of all the fun when GOP convention goers come out of their hotels for a night on the town with a Roscoe strapped on and all the Crybullies and Special Snowflakes see them.
If they think that chalk writing of Trump 2016 was “scary” and made them feel “unsafe” think what it will be like for them when someone walks by with a 1911 strapped on and nods politely in their direction…with a big grin.
Hmm, do you think there is enough time to arrange to set up a booth selling brown pants to the protestors? 😀
Angry Webmaster (c2a001) — 3/28/2016 @ 3:29 pmNot only are there Trump supporters who might try to intimidate, but there are people who oppose Trump, even within the GOP, who probably shouldn’t come near Trump with a gun. Guns and heated political argument do not seem like a good combination.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 3/28/2016 @ 4:22 pmI would love to see a GUN CHECK room, though. Might be impressive and one news photo would serve to keep muggers well away.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 3/28/2016 @ 4:23 pmFalse flag petition.
I tend to agree. A couple of my left-wing friends on Facebook reported that they gleefully signed the petition, because I guess they assume it would expose the GOP as a bunch of hypocrites.
Do political parties allow people to pay for booth space at these “conventions”? If so, some enterprising soul should petition to have a working abortion clinic, where convention attendees can go for a pregnancy termination. First-trimester abortions would not be handled by doctors, but by nurse practitioners, physician’s assistants, and midwives. Third-trimester abortions would be provided Gosnell-style.
JVW (b186dd) — 3/28/2016 @ 4:28 pmThey say they aren’t done. Nor am I.
Steve57 (08b8c6) — 3/28/2016 @ 4:45 pmyes, it smells like teen spirit, or a agrabah letter,
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 4:51 pmHere’s an excerpt from Mark Hensch’s interview with Scott Baio in The Hill 3/28/16:
ropelight (03f634) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:08 pmouch yes yes in the head is where the silly R’s are shooting the gun bullets – it’s so dumb
sleazy wiscotrash paul ryan and meghan’s cowardpig daddy, slimy weirdo mitt romney and darling nikki haley
these people are psychos and inherent losers they’re repugnant
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:12 pmSo stop attacking Cruz already!
Gerald A (7c7ffb) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:14 pmI want to hear from The Fonz. And Potsie. And Ralph. Not Ritchie, though. Ritchie is annoying.
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:17 pmSo stop attacking Cruz already!
poor sleazy ted
he don’t understand
if you build a house on nevertrump
it fall down on you head
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:32 pmI am all in favor of open carry,
However, this just makes the GOP look STUPID
Joe - From Texas (debac0) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:38 pmTed is rubber
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:38 pmTrump is glue
It bounces off of Ted
And lands on that weird little animal perched on Trump’s head.
It’s a false flag, Joe. By an anti-gunner. Or Democrat. To make the GOP look stupid.
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:40 pmit’s a very rare practically endangered patagonian peesqueetle
pls to show a little respect
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:43 pmSnort/chortle.
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:44 pmThe tsunami of abuse directed at me came not from any initial criticism of Cruz (I repeatedly expressed my admiration for him) but from pointing out that he’s Constitutionally ineligible for the Presidency. He’s not a natural born US citizen, Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a Cuban father, his mother was probably still an American, but resistance to addressing the situation openly and forthrightly (instead of whistling past the graveyard) had made even raising the question into a taboo subject.
Cruz supporters deny the clearly obvious provisions of the Constitution limiting the Executive office to verifiably American citizens born of citizen parents. The Constitution insists that only natural born American citizens are eligible, Ted Cruz doesn’t meet the minimum standards and no amount of caterwauling, chest beating, or wishful thinking is going to change that fact.
The Democrats are lying in wait to disqualify Cruz on those very grounds should the GOP be foolish enough to nominate a patsy.
ropelight (03f634) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:54 pmI want to hear from The Fonz. And Potsie. And Ralph. Not Ritchie, though. Ritchie is annoying.
It’s the Leather Tuscadero endorsement that really matters.
JVW (fd95ff) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:58 pmomg Mr. ropelight harvardtrash ted is already losing to hillary and so much of the really gross stuff about him is just sitting there waiting to fall on his nasty greasy head
(it’s in abeyance as they say)
ladies and gentlemen i give you ted cruz
oh yeah he’s presidential like a fart in church
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 5:59 pm“that weird little animal perched on Trump’s head”
It’s a Golden Marmoset.
Rick Ballard (aa11e0) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:00 pm“I just wish the Republican Party — which I don’t really consider myself a part of anymore, because I don’t trust them on anything — I just wish they would attack Democrats the way they attack their own.”
Since you aren’t part of it, and you support someone who isn’t part of it, what is this “own” of which you speak?
Kevin M (25bbee) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:10 pmropelifght, your birtherism is nutty nonsense
SPQR (a3a747) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:11 pmthe confessional by mrs, ciegeski, sic, in the latest lackwitz sisters@ballard, training manual, xonojane, is impressive,
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:11 pmit is a sound idea and also it is a misguided idea
it mostly just depends on who gets shot
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:13 pmThey do need to put up a sign, though: http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.com/2016/03/suicide-bomber-free-zone.html
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:19 pmIt’s true that rooeligyt has been open to Cruz in the past. It’s also true thst ropelight was not concerned about Cruz’s eligibility when Trump said he might pick Cruz as his VP, so his cuurent conerns are as self-serving as Trump’s.
DRJ (15874d) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:20 pmnot sillier then this, though,
http://observer.com/2016/03/de-blasio-trump-and-cruz-are-working-from-an-isis-script/
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:20 pmnobody ever picked ted cruz for kickball
he’s in absolutely NO danger of being picked for anyone’s vp
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:22 pmDeBlasio and Trump are two peas from the same pod. New York sidewalk hucksters. It’s just that Trump did not have to change his identity to hide from his creditors until the statutes of limitations expired.
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:25 pmyeah i want THAT GUY on my team said nobody ever
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:26 pmErr … George W. Bush did in 2000. And you know who else? Ted Olson? Yes, the Perry v. Hollingsworth Ted Olson. Was it the name you think?
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:29 pmthis porridge is too cold
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:31 pm#33, DRJ, you should have gone back to the beginning: Patterico’s first post on his decision to support Ted Cruz to the point he wouldn’t vote for Trump even if he got the GOP nod.
To draw Patterico out I speculated on a Trump/Cruz ticket. Patterico flatly refused to vote for Trump even if Cruz ran with him as his Vice President.
Additionally, when asked, I said I’d vote for the GOP nominee no matter who it was. That is still my position. So, yes, I’d vote for Ted Cruz even though I consider him ineligible. You may consider that an example of hypocrisy if you wish, and it may be hypocritical to an extent, but politics ain’t bean bag and any GOP nominee is better than the best Democrat since Scoop Jackson.
ropelight (03f634) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:33 pm“It’s a very disturbing incident taking place in a site that’s very important historically, where something good happened in terms of creating more opportunity for people to live their lives,” Mayor Bill “de Blasio” said, “and to see a violent incident like this is very troubling.”
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:35 pmpikachu gets all ornery when he doesn’t have his sprinkles,
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 6:46 pmthere are some unstable people, out there, and cleveland isn’t coughing up ,the equipment for security
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3512828/US-Capitol-lockdown-visitor-opened-fire-shooting-police-officer.html
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:00 pmMr Happyfeet, The Mr Donald admits to numerous affairs which broke up his two prior marriages. His current wife is a former nude model. He admits to having all sorts of adult fun while John McCain languished in a dirty commie prison. And the transcripts of The Mr Donald’s frat boy conversations with The Mr Howard Stern are pretty yucky.
Meanwhile, The Mr Cruz is accused of having affairs with a few women—who deny it—and you say, “THAT’S GROSS!”
You’re like the Alaskan Eskimo who travels to Seattle and complains, “It’s too chilly here—I can’t wait to get back to Nome!”
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:16 pmhe coulda languished more
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:20 pmMr Happyfeet, do you want to clarify that statement that John McCain “coulda languished more”?
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:22 pmNo American should languish in a dirty North Vietnamese prison.
Do you wish McCain had spent more time there?
if wishes were fishes we’d all swim in riches
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:25 pmYeah, yeah, yeah, but Melania can say “100 Euros plus 40 for the room and 10 for the cab-driver” in five languages. Can McCain do that?
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:29 pmno he can’t cause he sucks
happyfeet (831175) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:29 pmMr Happyfeet, so you really do wish McCain had spent more time languishing in a North Vietnamese prison?
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:36 pmHe doesn’t need to nk, Melania does it for him.
Imam Hoagie ™ (e4fcd6) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:41 pmI wonder at the depths of Cruz Supporter’s sick obsession. He’s so far removed from normal human compassion that it’s difficult to tell where his political animosity ends and his malignancies begin. He won’t end well.
ropelight (03f634) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:45 pmropelight,
Oh, put down the Coors Light and go watch your conspiracy marathon on the History Channel. (LOL)
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:49 pmIn light of Trump and his fanboys’ fantasies about ISIS coming to get them, this petition makes perfect sense. It plays to their delusions of grandeur and paranoid tendencies.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:52 pmCien Euros por el cuarto y diez más por el taxista
Cent Euro pour le chambre et dix pour le taxiste
Ein hundert Euro fur das Zimmer und zehn fur das Taxifahrer
Cien Euro para o cuarto e dez mais para taxi
I don’t think that I can do five. Maybe Italian, in a pinch.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 3/28/2016 @ 7:58 pmmaybe the anarchists that threatened to attack the minneapolis convention, and burned the governor’s mansion in austin, were kept in mind,
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:01 pmI know what do they matter,
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/chrisfield/2011/01/10/remember_this_liberal_terror_attack_on_2008_gop_convention_thwarted
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:04 pmEnglish counts too, carlitos.
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:12 pmAnd come to think of it, we might be selling McCain short. He was in the Navy, remember? He wouldn’t be the one saying it, but he would understand it.
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:15 pmThread hijack? Thread hijack.
Susan Sarandon is on that Chris Hayes show on MSNBC right now talking about the minimum wage. You know, noted economist, labor expert, and small businessperson Susan Sarandon. And Hayes is treating her as if she has something worthwhile to say. What I would give if someone would ask her, “Ms. Sarandon which one of your movies in which you appear topless is your favorite one and why?” I don’t think she has much else to add to humanity.
JVW (fd95ff) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:36 pmSarandon has a few hot scenes in ‘White Palace.’
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:39 pmBut all in all, I wish she and Thelma had driven off the cliff in that other movie.
you’re assuning chris hayes has something to say, that is rarely true,
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:40 pmDumb petition. Cooke is right.
Patterico (86c8ed) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:40 pmThanks, JVW, but I’m watching Robert DeNiro talk about vaccines.
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:41 pmElitists!
nk (dbc370) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:50 pma film about that charlatan wakefield,
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:55 pm… All for guns in Cleveland. Getcha popcorn ready.
Rodney King's Spirit (a089dc) — 3/28/2016 @ 8:59 pmMy first post where boobs have hijacked the thread!
Dana (0ee61a) — 3/28/2016 @ 9:06 pmAt least they’re not Detroit.
And again.
Bill H (dcdd7b) — 3/28/2016 @ 9:25 pmMy first post where boobs have hijacked the thread!
Not really, Dana, if you think about it. . .
JVW (fd95ff) — 3/28/2016 @ 9:33 pm#68 Dana,
I would submit that some of the Trumpkins have hijacked some of your past posts. (LOL)
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/28/2016 @ 9:34 pmHa, ha, JVW just beat me to the punchline.
Cruz Supporter (102c9a) — 3/28/2016 @ 9:35 pmit’s not such a crazy notion, in light of the whole host of provocations soros is planning, but i do see the downside,
narciso (732bc0) — 3/28/2016 @ 9:45 pmHeh. Clearly there are boobs and there are boobs.
Dana (0ee61a) — 3/28/2016 @ 9:52 pmHeh. ™
carlitos (c24ed5) — 3/29/2016 @ 7:39 am#3 Exactly right. And todays news confirmed it as a false flag ops, run by a Californian anti-gunner. The Left sure does love Moby tactics.
I suspected as much when I visited the “hypernationalist” site which promoted the petition. For me, that name plus the lack of any history prior to the petition effort raised red flags.
Brad (74d84e) — 3/29/2016 @ 4:01 pmhttp://www.guns.com/2016/03/29/rnc-convention-open-carry-petition-organizer-confirmed-democrat-clinton-supporter/
Yep, false flag.
SPQR (a3a747) — 3/29/2016 @ 4:24 pm