Patterico's Pontifications

7/1/2015

New York Times Asks Why White People Are “Extremely” Uncomfortable Talking About Race

Filed under: General — Dana @ 5:18 pm

[guest post by Dana]

I love documentaries, both large and small. Over at the New York Times, there is an interesting section called Op-Docs. As you can guess from its name, it is a compilation of essays and short-documentaries about any number of subjects. I regularly check it out to see what interesting person they have profiled, or which controversial or everyday subject they’re covering.

Of course, it’s the New York Times we are talking about, so with some subjects, viewer beware. They have a point of view and aren’t afraid to use it.

In today’s op-docs, readers are asked – without batting a self-aware eye – why white people are so uncomfortable and uneasy talking about race:

Why do so many white people find it extremely uncomfortable to talk about race? Setting out to make the next installment of our Op-Doc video series about race in America, we hoped to address that question. Because we live in New York, where there is no shortage of opinions, we didn’t think it would be too hard to find white people willing to speak publicly on this topic. We were wrong.

The people we ultimately found to start the conversation on this fraught topic were uniformly well-meaning and in favor of equality. Certainly they didn’t consider themselves racists. Racism is something that is perpetrated by other people — the ones complaining about affirmative action, refusing to take down their Confederate flags and sharing racist jokes. But if so few people identify as racist, why are racial tensions so pervasive right now? Subtle racism is harder to confront.

It has become easier for white people to think about race through the superficial lens of thinking about other people, instead of themselves. Indeed, most of the people in this Op-Doc hadn’t given much thought to being white other than that it was obvious by the color of their skin. But when we dug a bit deeper, the discussion gets tense, and visibly uncomfortable.

With this Op-Doc video, we’ve attempted to lean into that discomfort and prompt some self-reflection. We are all part of this system, and therefore we all have a responsibility to work toward dismantling it. If we’re going to have an honest conversation about race in America, that includes thinking — and talking — about what it means to be white in America. It might be uncomfortable, but it’s a conversation that must involve all of us.

Here’s a wild thought, NYT: perhaps white people who don’t think too much about race or discuss it in general is because THEY ARE JUST TOO DAMN BUSY GETTING ON WITH THE JOB OF LOVING THEIR NEIGHBORS AND LIVING THEIR LIVES. Yes, you heard me. I just spouted off some seriously ignorant royal white privilege (which confuses my brown skin…). But sadly, the fact is that if you are white, you have no choice in the matter. By default (because we are a nation that judges by skin color), you embody the institutional racism pervasive in every aspect of America. Your behavior and actions mean little. Because white skin. Oh, white privilege have you no shame?! No one is allowed to get on with the job of living their lives until they first cry “uncle” and own it – all of it. Because those are the rules. Get used to it.

Moreover, it’s wearying and mind-boggling that journalists who spend their days profiling and filming people from all walks of life, both here at home and in the world-at-large, can be so blinkered that they have no absolutely clue why there might be some hesitation or reluctance to discuss race these days – particularly white people discussing it with the NYT. And given that public shaming and retaliation are becoming another new normal when one doesn’t see race through the required lens, the risk is often too great to have that conversation they keep nagging us about. You know, the conversation that only goes one way: admit you are white privileged or and be labeled racist. Buy what they’re selling. Get it right. Diversity is quite literally only skin deep. And we’re the worse for it.

Take a moment to click over to the comments section and compare the top Reader’s Picks vs. NYT Pick’s. I bet you can guess where they stand.

–Dana

Comments (144)

144 Responses to “New York Times Asks Why White People Are “Extremely” Uncomfortable Talking About Race”

Hello.
Dana (86e864) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:20 pm
Why are us white folk so uncomfortable talking about race? Because with the exception of a few academics, none of us have figured out how to make a comfortable living doing it.
JVW (8278a3) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:29 pm
And hello to you too, Dana.
JVW (8278a3) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:30 pm
Some white people talk about it incessantly, such as the reporters for the New York Times. Most of us have moved past race and really wish you would too.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:35 pm
Someone should junk punch the douchenozzle that wrote that. Because, racism.
JD (bf9ccd) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:37 pm
Kevin M,

You know you’re not allowed to move on. That you even suggest it confirms your white privilege. That’s how it works.

They have to gin it up. The Democrats depend on it and there’s an election coming up.
Dana (86e864) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:39 pm
only goes one way: admit you are white privileged or be labeled racist

And, not ‘or’.
Teflon Dad (7c6c42) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:44 pm
Affirmative Action is the mobilization of racism, straight up.
ropelight (5738da) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:45 pm
I guess white people don’t want to talk about the race for the same reason we don’t want to try a 100 yard dash through a minefield.
Gregory of Yardale (2d66d1) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:47 pm
I don’t talk about race because I’m not fixated on it. I’m sick and tired of all the race crap. Only racists are constantly fixated on people’s race. I’ve already looked beyond the color of people’s skin and I ain’t impressed. The usual culprits; media, entertainment, news, academia all seem to have a never ending agenda of agitation about race. The rest of us, the actual NON racists, don’t give a rats behind. Just like now everybody is supposed to kowtow to homos. It’s not we who care what they do, it’s they who make a life’s goal of telling us on a constant basis they’re gay. Who cares? Do I run up to every gay I see and check if he knows I’m straight? Race baiting and race peddling has been raised to an art form by low expectations, the Al Sharpton’s and of course the aforementioned culprits above.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/1/2015 @ 5:49 pm
I would guess we don’t want to talk about race because if we are honest and use facts, thta makes us racist.
Chuck (d63085) — 7/1/2015 @ 6:17 pm
Nice catch, Teflon Dad. I’ve updated the post with your more accurate assessment.
Dana (86e864) — 7/1/2015 @ 6:26 pm
So the NYT is disappointed because they couldn’t find any white people willing to be called racist.
edoc118 (b91ab7) — 7/1/2015 @ 6:39 pm
More self-unaware douchenozzles
http://theweek.com/articles/563820/how-democrats-became-new-party-liberty
JD (3b5483) — 7/1/2015 @ 6:46 pm
If we’re going to have an honest conversation about race in America, that includes thinking — and talking — about what it means to be white in America. It might be uncomfortable, but it’s a conversation that must involve all of us.

The NYT does not realize a “conversation” requires we all get to speak. They want a Dialogue that ends in White Guilt. I don’t buy in.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/1/2015 @ 6:57 pm
Whites are so uncomfortable about race that they elected Obama twice so they wouldn’t have to discuss it. Didn’t work as well as planned.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 7/1/2015 @ 7:16 pm
Maybe they should find different people to ask to talk about it.

But then they might not like what they hear and they certainly won’t agree with
any of it.

When they talk about talking about race what they really mean is they want to
lecture to a bunch of white people and have them apologize and beg for mercy.

That’s not a discussion and that’s why most whites don’t want to have that type of
“talk”.
jakee308 (c37f85) — 7/1/2015 @ 7:18 pm
Most white people are uncomfortable talking in public about race for the same reason people in the USSR were uncomfortable talking about politics. For that matter, it’s for the same reason that people in Singapore (especially Chinese people) are uncomfortable talking about race, religion, or history. It’s because if they say the wrong thing, and the wrong people hear about it, they could suffer serious consequences.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/1/2015 @ 7:34 pm
I am extremely comfortable talking about race.

Right up until the moment the “person of color” whips out the “,I am offended card” because, you know, by conversation I took that to mean I got to say something.

And I respond, “The truth hurts, doesn’t it?”

Then things get awkward.
Steve57 (4c9797) — 7/1/2015 @ 7:40 pm
As an old white guy, I’m not uncomfortable talking about race, but I am sick and tired hearing it brought up to the extent it is. I say live and let live, live by the Golden Rule and shut yer cake hole unless you have something positive to say. Stop yer whining and quit yer bi+chin’.

Here endeth my complaint.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/1/2015 @ 7:49 pm
And the NYT and the rest of the phony, cowardly leftwingers can go have coitus with themselves.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/1/2015 @ 7:53 pm
To show my good faith, I hereby commit to paying a half-million dollars to each of my slaves, and will free them immediately. Furthermore, I believe that all American slaves are entitled to a similar amount for every year in which they were slaves.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/1/2015 @ 8:08 pm
I think the problem is that we’ve lost proportion in almost every aspect of societal interaction. Not that long ago people used to understand that an attack on a specific human or a criticism of the actions of a small group of humans was not automatically an indictment or affront against an entire race.

It has been expected throughout our history that a U.S. president will make enemies and that some percentage of citizens will resist any president’s actions or policies on political or moral grounds. The rules of engagement changed dramatically and to the country’s detriment when it became impossible to criticize the personality, actions and policies of this president — President Obama– without it being “racist”. Things have rapidly gone down hill from there.
elissa (a14152) — 7/1/2015 @ 8:46 pm
why white people are so uncomfortable and uneasy talking about race:

Perhaps for the same reason that many people (of all races, ethnicities, etc) don’t like talking about their or other people’s political or ideological biases. Or the type of reaction, which was rather pronounced in the past (if not today, too), that deems it somehow improper to closely scrutinize the liberalism, in particular, of a nominee to the Supreme Court or, for that matter, the leftism of the US’s current president.

The mindset behind that is a big reason why liberals often foolishly claim that almost any criticism of the guy now in the White House is somehow due to his race and not his idiotic left-leaning sentiments. Such purposeful ignorance or disingenuousness is inculcated by the idea that if everyone wants to avoid strife and unpleasantness breaking out at a family gathering, it’s best for all participants to avoid talking about religion and politics.
Mark (a11af2) — 7/1/2015 @ 8:48 pm
when it became impossible to criticize the personality, actions and policies of this president — President Obama– without it being “racist”.

Which is why the rebuttal needs to be sounded from on high — transmitted far and wide — that if Obama were a conservative Republican — a black conservative Republican — the shouts of “racism!” directed at his critics from the usual suspects would be strangely muted or non-existent.
Mark (a11af2) — 7/1/2015 @ 8:52 pm
I think we’ve lost proportion in this regard, elissa, because of a conscious effort to get people who oppose the agenda to shut up. Obama and the Dems could have been a bit gracious and magnanimous in agreeing with the obvious, that some people can oppose Obama’s agenda because they oppose the agenda, the policies,
but they didn’t do that
because he prefers to bring a gun to a knife fight
rather than choosing weapons in a duel.
MD (Back) in Philly (f9371b) — 7/1/2015 @ 9:01 pm
This, excerpted from a Fred Schwarz essay, is one of the plainest and best best descriptions of what we’re dealing with that I’ve seen:

I wrote in a book review once that the basic distinction between Right and Left when it comes to the Constitution is “rules vs. tools”: Conservatives see the Constitution as a set of rules that must be followed, while liberals see it as a box of tools that can be used to put their policies into effect. And if you have to use a chisel as a screwdriver or bang in nails with a pair of pliers, it’s no problem as long as the thing gets built. It’s not so much a matter of ends justifying means as of ends creating means: If a given interpretation will lead to “social justice,” that in itself makes the interpretation correct. This principle turns the 14th Amendment into a Swiss Army knife and the Commerce Clause into a roll of duct tape. They devise new uses for dusty old buggy whips like the 13th Amendment, and even the forlorn Third Amendment was pulled out of the back of a drawer somewhere to be cited in Griswold v. Connecticut (and is now being invoked by the Left and the Right to oppose NSA surveillance). And they think nothing of turning the strictest rules on their heads, so that “shall not discriminate on account of race” means “must discriminate on account of race” and “freedom of speech” requires restricting speech. What, you thought these provisions actually mean what they explicitly say? Only until they get weaponized by a progressive.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/420624/supreme-court-liberal-interpretation
elissa (a14152) — 7/1/2015 @ 9:15 pm
Monologue is the new Dialog. They haven’t noticed that they’ve already implemented this.

Dear NYTA — You talk, I won’t listen.
htom (4ca1fa) — 7/1/2015 @ 9:51 pm
They didn’t ask me. I will be happy to discuss the topic with them.
Robert C. J. Parry (a68543) — 7/1/2015 @ 10:55 pm
Any white person who talks truthfully about race is a blinking idiot.
Peter (c60400) — 7/3/2015 @ 5:44 am
When blacks and guilty white liberals invite white people to talk about race, what they are inviting white people to do is “shut up and listen.”

Have you ever seen what happens to white people who talk about race without toeing the political correct, radical left-wing line that the plight of black Americans has nothing to do with the choices of black Americans themselves, but rather everything to do with “white privilege” and the “white dominant social structure.”
Peter (c60400) — 7/3/2015 @ 5:47 am
No Dana, I think if you have a person who’s reached a point of running for the President of the United States who is such a callous simpleton that he labels Latino immigrants rapists and killers, then, no, I don’t think that he’s seeing race through the “required lens.” And yeah, a little talk on that front probably wouldn’t hurt, even if he is white. He’ll just have to pencil in a date on his busy schedule. Besides, he should have more time now that he’s being fired from various jobs he’s held.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 8:25 am
When a political candidate demonstrates the courage to challenge PC orthodoxy by calling out the left’s sacred cows he earns both respect and admiration. George Orwell said, In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
ropelight (1a3617) — 7/5/2015 @ 8:55 am
They aren’t “Latino immigrants”, Tillman. They’re illegal aliens! And not all of them are rapists and killers but last year 1,600 were killers either by murder or by DUI. All 1,600 Americans killed should be alive. BTW, you can’t fire the boss you can just quit working with him. Ya see, he doesn’t “hold jobs” in the way you would, he creates opportunities. Something foreign to leftists. Any foreigner here without papers has sneaked in illegally thus breaking the law making themselves criminals by the commission of an illegal act. Anyone helping them or defending them is aiding a criminal.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 8:58 am
who is such a callous simpleton

As opposed to liberals like you who love promoting the notion that any criticism of, for example, Obama is due to racist/bigoted instincts? A reaction that conveniently sidesteps the fact that if such politicians (non-white, in this instance) were staunch conservatives, you or most of your ilk would be happily quiet if Geroge-Takei opprobrium were aimed at those particular public figures.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:03 am
Hoagie, since there’s so much opposition to the phrase illegal aliens we might consider finding alternative terms. How about undocumented criminals?
ropelight (1a3617) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:07 am
White people are “Extremely” uncomfortable talking about race because, just based on what has come out recently, the ones who ARE comfortable talking about race are pretending to be something other than White…….
C. S. P. Schofield (a196fd) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:08 am
Tillman is the sort of pathetic loser who supports unlimited illegal immigration at the expense of unemployed youth and the forgotten tens of millions who will never have a chance at realizing their dreams of living useful, productive lives or the joys of parenthood.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:11 am
In other words, he’s a typical lefty D-Bag.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:13 am
I kinda figured, Colonel.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:15 am
White people are “Extremely” uncomfortable

Actually, that’s not accurate at all. LEFTIST white people love — just love, love, love — talking about race and racism. In fact, it’s a competition between them and LEFTIST black people as to who can obsess the most over race/ethnicity, racial (or sexual, etc, etc) discrimination and the topics thereof.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:25 am
I like undocumented criminals ropelight. Has a certain un-leftist ring to it. BTW, Tillman pops on occasionally to remind us there actually was One Child Left Behind.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 9:45 am
Call Hispanics what you will, the type of racist pandering coming out of his mouth makes him an enemy to most of them. So in a race for President, even if it isn’t racist, it’s political suicide. Trump has no chance, he’s just doing what he does best, unapologetically stroking is own ego.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:06 pm
Trump has no chance, he’s just doing what he does best, unapologetically stroking is own ego.

Well Tillman, when you’re right, you’re right.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:10 pm
After the viscous racist murders in Charleston there were no riots, no nights of mob rage, there was unity, forgiveness, and a call for calm and mutual respect. Charleston responded in a civil and responsible way, but not Obama, and not the establishment press, not the Democrat candidate. Glenn K Beaton at the Aspen Times noticed the difference and puts the onus on Obama – where it belongs: (following is an excerpt)

…the president, who promised to be “a uniter, not divider,” appeared for an interview on a comedy show. There he uttered an ugly racial epithet that had been relegated to rap music lyrics. His purpose was to tell Americans that they are still racists even if they don’t use that word and even if they don’t know that they are.

In a eulogy to the dead in Charleston, he again used their deaths to lobby for gun controls that would not have prevented their deaths.

And the guy who for decades attended a church where the pastor screamed “God damn America,” said that God opposes the Confederate flag. (For the record, I also oppose flying the Confederate flag, but the Creator of the Universe has not revealed to me his opinion on the issue, as he apparently has to Obama.)

He wound up using, er, I mean singing, “Amazing Grace” — while exhibiting nothing of the sort.

Let’s recap. While America condemned a killer, the president condemned America. While America grieved, the president exploited their grief to promote a pet political cause, to smear America’s culture and to inform us that God is on his side in political debates.

To top it off, he stoked the fires of racial resentment, fires that have blazed ever hotter under his presidency. On a comedy show, he spat an incendiary word that the rest of us would rather not hear — at least not until the tears are dry, the blood is mopped and the bodies are buried.

Maybe that demonic lunatic in South Carolina, who hoped to provoke a race war by killing nine as they worshiped, has friends and allies after all. He just never guessed that they were in such high places.

In the aftermath of Obama’s rhetoric, two racist groups that were practically extinct when he took office — the Black Panthers and the Ku Klux Klan — are planning dueling rallies this month in South Carolina.

Watch the president pour gas on their fires of hate.
ropelight (1a3617) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:21 pm
Oh, and by the way… Trump’s clothing line, the one that’s been pulled from Macy’s, is made in … Mexico. And this guy’s currently running in 2nd place in the Republican race for President?
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:36 pm
Care to compare his corruption to your seem frontrunner?
Tillman’s idiocy just never gets old.
Trump is as much of a republican as Ernie Banks was a Cardinal
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:50 pm
Call Hispanics what you will,

That is a lie, and you are a liar, Tillman. You conflate the groups commonly referred to as immigrants with Hispanics, when what people are really referring to is illegal immigrants, a different group of people altogether.
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:52 pm
You’re damn right they are, JD. Thirty years ago my wife was an immigrant, but she was legal. Came here with a small company called Samsung. And she sure ain’t no Hispanic being from South Korea.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:55 pm
Tillman, I believe Trump’s clothing line is made in China.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:56 pm
Oh, and by the way… Trump’s clothing line, the one that’s been pulled from Macy’s, is made in … Mexico. And this guy’s currently running in 2nd place in the Republican race for President?

Why are you against employment for impoverished Mexicans?
Dana (86e864) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:57 pm
JD, if Trump isn’t a Republican, then why doesn’t the Republican party oust him?

I’m not conflating anything – of course Hispanics can be immigrants too.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 1:57 pm
By that reasoning if Sen. Sanders is a socialist and not a democrat why don’t the democrats oust him? Hell, they let him caucus with them. I’d also like to point out that Trump is not an elected official, he’s just a citizen like us. So he’s not an official of any party.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:02 pm
Rev., maybe some of his clothing is made in China, but e.g.,
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:02 pm
Here is the link
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:03 pm
48. It is true that most illegal immigrants are Hispanics.
But not all.
Which means Tillman is guilty of racial profiling.
kishnevi (91d5c6) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:05 pm
You are absolutely conflating illegal immigrants with Hispanics. And you are a clumsy liar.

How exactly do you suggest we excommunicate Trump from the party? Quit electing him to office?
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:06 pm
Rev., I think that Sen. Sanders is a democrat. But if he did something as hideous as spouting off racist comments, I believe that he’d be kicked out. The Republican party’s silence on racist attitudes “speaks volumes.”
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:06 pm
Ironically, Trump is more of a backer of Clinton and Obama policies than anyone else in the primary. Hell, he supports more Billary’s past positions than she does.
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:08 pm
Got the link Tillman. I just don’t know where that guy got his info from. The problem I have is my wife got me three of his shirts and they all have “Made In China” on them. BTW, they are excellent shirts.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:12 pm
Tillman:

52.JD, if Trump isn’t a Republican, then why doesn’t the Republican party oust him?

People are free to pick the Party with which they most identify. We’ll see in the primaries whether the voters pick Trump. Ultimately, I don’t think they will. I think what they like about him is that he’s a fighter.
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:13 pm
According to Google Sanders is Independent. I guess he IS a socialist but remains “independent” for whatever reason.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:14 pm
Rev., how many more links do ya need? Also, see Little Green Footballs.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:16 pm
Just looked. I have a Trump tie – made in China.
Link to LGF. Lol
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:18 pm
The Republican party’s silence on racist attitudes “speaks volumes.”

Tillman, the Republican Party was founded as and remains to this day the abolitionist party. The party of equal rights. The party of no segregation. The anti-lynching party and the anti Jim Crow party. You may not have heard but those titles historically belong to the democrat Party. It is the democrats who endorses the genocide of babies of color in their mother’s womb, is for ending charter schools and school vouchers to keep children of color from better education and who keep blacks hostage in ghettos with subsidies and hand outs instead of hand ups.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:21 pm
Tillman:

58.Rev., I think that Sen. Sanders is a democrat. But if he did something as hideous as spouting off racist comments, I believe that he’d be kicked out. The Republican party’s silence on racist attitudes “speaks volumes.”

Really? Then what does that say about the Democrats?

Did the Democrats kick out Dan Rather when he said Obama couldn’t “sell watermelons“? Or Bill Clinton when he told Ted Kennedy that Obama would have been “bringing them coffee“? Or Al Sharpton when he talked about “Greek homos“? Finally, Sen. Christopher Dodd had to apologize but he certainly wasn’t run out of the Democratic Party when he praised Ku Klux Klan member and anti-Civil Rights Senator Robert Byrd as someone who could have led the nation during the Civil War.
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:22 pm
All the ties are made in China. All the shirts are made in China. Suits, a small portion of his overall collection, are made in Vietnam and Mexico. So, Tillman is cherry picking his asshattery.
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:22 pm
Oh, and by the way… Trump’s clothing line, the one that’s been pulled from Macy’s, is made in … Mexico

So Macy’s is now boycotting Mexico. Is that your point? I can’t see any other.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:22 pm
“Rev., I think that Sen. Sanders is a democrat. But if he did something as hideous as spouting off racist comments, I believe that he’d be kicked out. The Republican party’s silence on racist attitudes “speaks volumes.”

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:23 pm
Note that those examples exclude the racism of our current President and Vice President, who I assume are still members in good standing of the Democratic Party.
DRJ (1dff03) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:24 pm
I’m sorry Tillman but you’re asking me to believe some guys Facebook and Little Green Footballs instead of my own eyes. The eyes win. My wife paid $275 each for these things. I checked them out since I buy custom shirts for that amount. And they’re made here right in Center City Philadelphia by a little Italian guy.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:24 pm
==People are free to pick the Party with which they most identify==

Yes. Just like people are now apparently free to choose to be the gender with which they most identify. But Let’s not confuse Tillman.
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:25 pm
DRJ – the list of ethnicities that Biden has offended is amazing.
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:26 pm
JD, if Trump isn’t a Republican, then why doesn’t the Republican party oust him?

Um, how? Why didn’t the Democratic party oust Lyndon LaRouche and Fred Phelps? Why didn’t the Republicans oust David Duke? The answer is the same in both cases: neither party is a membership organization, so they have no way of “ousting” anyone, whatever that means, any more than the Yankess can “oust” their fans.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:26 pm
if he did something as hideous as spouting off racist comments,

When you say “hideous” does that include the use of the word nigger like Obama? And does racist include being a Kegel for the KKK like Byrd?
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:27 pm
Rev., I think that Sen. Sanders is a democrat. But if he did something as hideous as spouting off racist comments, I believe that he’d be kicked out.

How? And what exactly is your point about Trump’s clothing being made in Mexico? Why shouldn’t it be?
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:27 pm
The NYT is even stupider and more obtuse than even I suspected. They’re in NEW YORK, for fuck’s sake! There are no “white people” in NYC (I grew up there.) There are Irishmen and Jews and Italians and Greeks and Poles and Sicilians. Even the visiting Southerners are not “white people”, they’re Southerners. The problem is, in terms of “talking about race”, most blacks spend their whole lives walking around thinking about being black. They don’t have an atomized identity the way “white people” do. The only time I ever thought about “being white” was when some asshole insisted on pointing it out.

Oh, and plus all the other stuff everyone else said.
grumpy the grump (944707) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:28 pm
I’m sorry Tillman but you’re asking me to believe some guys Facebook and Little Green Footballs instead of my own eyes.

I don’t understand what this argument is about. What difference does it make where Trump’s clothing line is made?
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:30 pm
== And does racist include being a Kegel for the KKK like Byrd?==

I love you man, but you might want to look up the definition of Kegel. 🙂
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:30 pm
Seriously Rev., you have to go back over 100 years to show how non-racist the Republican party is? More recently, what about David Duke? That was preposterous to let that slide.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:31 pm
Rev., I think that Sen. Sanders is a democrat. But if he did something as hideous as spouting off racist comments, I believe that he’d be kicked out.

Ted Kennedy would like to thank you for not considering killing a woman hideous
Joe Biden would like to thank you for not considering his history of ethnic slurs hideous
Robert Byrd would like to thank you for not considering his Grand Kleagle status as hideous
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:31 pm
Okay Tillman, exactly who is the authority to “kick” someone out of a party he identifies with?
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:32 pm
Calling a party racist shows how effin fundamentally dishonest and mendoucheous you are. Valid name calling is literally all you have. You start off with lies, then when called out, move on to name-calling. Trolls like you never change.
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:33 pm
And while you’re about it please tell us how George Steinbrenner can “kick out” obnoxious Yankees.

And who, exactly, let David Duke “slide”, and how did they do it?
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:35 pm
elissa, my spelling is atrocious and without spell check I can’t spell atrocious. Sorry. Now if they ever come up with punctuation check I’ll be in heaven.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:35 pm
But really I’m waiting for an explanation on why Tillman thinks it’s interesting that (some of) Trump’s clothing line is made in Mexico.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:36 pm
Out of interest, Hoagie, what were you trying to spell? I thought you meant Kegel literally.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:37 pm
Oh! Grand Kleegle! Of course. Still, he was a Kegel too 🙂
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:37 pm
79.Seriously Rev., you have to go back over 100 years to show how non-racist the Republican party is?

I’m not going back over a hundred years to prove anything. I’m giving you an historical time line of the anti-bigotry history of the party which apparently you’re unable to accept. And I’m older than you but not near 100 and I marched for equal rights in the 70’s against the Democrats who wanted Separate but Equal and segregation so please don’t pretend to tell me about who is racist, kid. Lester Maddox and George Wallace were racists, and Democrats.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:41 pm
Then explain David Duke Rev. (I gotta hear this.)
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:43 pm
I’ve just seen it spelled: kegel, kagel and keagel on Google so I’m confused, Milhouse. But I did find out what kegel is. Urinary? Oy vey.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:45 pm
What’s there to explain? Duke looked at the polls and decided he could do better as a Republican than as a Democrat, so that’s how he chose to run. Bloomberg did the same thing. How is the Republican party responsible for either of them? And do you hold the Democratic party responsible for Lyndon LaRouche and Fred Phelps?
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:47 pm
What would you like me to esplain about David Duke? If he was Adolf Hitler nobody can “oust” him. He can leave. We could ignore him. But short of shooting the b*stard what else can be done? You tell me, how do you oust one from a political party? Like Hitler “ousted” Boreman?
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:49 pm
If you’re referring to the Klan rank, it’s kleagle, with an L after the K. It means “klan eagle”.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:49 pm
I’d love to hear you explain Ted Kennedy, Joe Biden, and Robert Byrd, actual Dem leaders, as opposed to some asshat that ran and lost a State election. By yours standards; you should be on your knees begging for forgiveness for Free Phelps.

This is such predictable trollish behavior.
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:51 pm
Thank you Milhouse. It would help if I could at least spell it if I’m trying to make a point with it.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:53 pm
Hoagie, in most countries political parties are membership organizations, so they can literally oust members, just as the NAACP or ACLU can. But the Republican and Democratic parties are not membership organizations. To become a Republican or a Democrat one doesn’t apply for membership, or pay a fee, or do anything at all but declare it so. It’s exactly the same as declaring oneself a Yankee or a Dodger; there’s nothing the actual teams can do about it.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 2:53 pm
Lurch’s father, was employed by the Klan’s acknowledged Senator Walter George, Hollings of course raised the Confederate standard, Fulbright’s Clinton mentor, was also an arch segregationist, who ended his career lobbying the emirates,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:00 pm
JD, I’m not aware of Joe Biden going so far as basically calling an ethnic group killers and rapists, and you’re going way back in time to talk about two others, who are dead. Unfortunately, if you go back the 1950’s, both parties weren’t exactly sticking up for minorities. Of course it was the 1960’s when that changed (and the Democrats took the lead on that front).

I’m not just a troll. I try to be respectful, even in the face of insults, and try to give you facts rather than just rant. So I consider myself a dissenter.

By the way, keeping some kind of control on immigration is not a bad thing in my opinion. With that, we can agree for example.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:21 pm
Re: #96. That’s what I was tryin’ to esplain to Tillman, Milhouse.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:22 pm
You’re really not listening, Tillman. You actually can go back to the 50’s, the 1850’s and the Republican party was “sticking up” for minorities, specifically Africans. That was what the party was born on. Don’t they teach this sh!t in school any more? And back in the 1960’s it was the Republicans in Congress that dragged the country kicking and screaming into the post-segregationist age. Don’t let Lyndon Johnson fool ya kiddo. After all it was he who stated that if he did it right he’d have “these n!gger’s voting Democrat for 200 years” and he wasn’t talking civil rights he was talking the Great Society poverty/dependence trap the democrats concocted. I guess we have the Democrat education establishment to thank for you guys believeing the abolitionists were actually the slave owners, segregationists and somehow the Nobel Democrats were marching, apparently with axe handles, for equality.
Rev. Barack Hussein Hoagie (f4eb27) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:32 pm
Rev., Joe Lieberman became such a Republican that he finally was made to feel uncomfortable enough to leave the Democratic party. That’s not a great example, but all he did was take the wrong side on some key issues. He may not have been ousted per se, but it shows that individuals can be driven out of a party – it is possible.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:34 pm
I’m not aware of Joe Biden going so far as basically calling an ethnic group killers and rapists,

Nor has Trump done that, so we’re even.

Unfortunately, if you go back the 1950’s, both parties weren’t exactly sticking up for minorities.

Not true. Republicans were, Democrats weren’t.

By the way, keeping some kind of control on immigration is not a bad thing in my opinion.

So you agree with Trump?

By the way I still want to hear you explain: 1. What is so interesting about where Trump’s clothing line is made; 2. How a party can oust someone.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:37 pm
Rev. there is no comparison of the Republican party today to what it was in the 1850’s. Or even 100 years ago. That’s ridiculous.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:37 pm
Rev. there is no comparison of the Republican party today to what it was in the 1850’s. Or even 100 years ago. That’s ridiculous.

There’s no content in that comment.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:39 pm
that’s just another day ending in y, milhouse,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:43 pm
Just to clear something up, in case someone missed it: Tillman is obviously working on the premise that Trump said Mexicans are killers and rapists. Of course he said no such thing. He said that the hundreds of thousands of people streaming over the US-Mexican border without any kind of control, many of whom aren’t Mexican, include a significant number of killers and rapists, and that is why we need to control that stream. This is not just true, it’s indisputable. There is no logifal reason why he should have come under any kind of fire for saying what everyone acknolwedges to be the obvious truth. Even Tillman seems to agree with him! And saying it doesn’t make him a Republican or a conservative or anyone we should want for president, but the mau-mauing he’s come under means that every decent person should support him in this dispute.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 3:51 pm
Milhouse, are you really trying to say that most of the immigrants coming from Mexico are not Mexican?

Yes, I agree that we should control immigration since what we have experienced lately is more of a migration – I don’t think that the US can easily accommodate so many at one time. We are a “melting pot” nation, but we have always tried to limit the number of immigrants coming into our country. But it’s not based on a belief that they’re mostly killers and rapists.
Tillman (a95660) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:01 pm
Raping and killing is MS13’s core business.
Gazzer (ee3742) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:04 pm
Milhouse, are you really trying to say that most of the immigrants coming from Mexico are not Mexican?

Who on earth suggested that? Why would you think I was saying it?

it’s not based on a belief that they’re mostly killers and rapists

Again, who is saying that?

You are making ridiculous things up to avoid addressing the questions posed to you.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:05 pm
Raping and killing is MS13’s core business.

Indeed it is, and not just them. What Trump said is indisputable.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:06 pm
we have always tried to limit the number of immigrants coming into our country.

That is not true.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:07 pm
Of course it was the 1960’s when that changed (and the Democrats took the lead on that front).

That right there says it all. Per the old adage you must be very blissful.
Gazzer (ee3742) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:16 pm
I don’t think that the US can easily accommodate so many at one time.

A bit of common sense from you, Tillman, which is rather unexpected. But better late than never.

Nonetheless — and thinking of the lack of diversity (as reported) in a liberal stomping ground like Silicon Valley or the schools where folks similar to the Obamas send their children — I really would like to see the various well-heeled characters in the bubble of liberal intelligentsia be required to move to places throughout the US full of the “undocumented” or the settings chock full of people that “progressives” profess to be so sympathetic (and tolerant, and loving, and compassionate, and patient, and generous) about. For example, a classroom full of Obama’s sons if he had a son.

Walk the walk and just don’t talk the talk.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:28 pm
==I really would like to see the various well-heeled characters in the bubble of liberal intelligentsia be required to move to places…..==

“Requiring” or forcing people to move for the purposes of social engineering or reverse social engineering is not, and has never been a Conservative trait. Especially in America. Dope.
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:38 pm
Actually, let me just fix Tillman’s dishonest recap, and see how it looks when stated honestly:

Milhouse, are you really trying to say that ~~most~~ many of the immigrants coming from Mexico are not Mexican?

Yes, I am.

a belief that ~~they’re mostly~~ may of them are killers and rapists

Yes, that is true.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:38 pm
“Requiring” or forcing people to move for the purposes of social engineering or reverse social engineering is not, and has never been a Conservative trait.

But it is a liberal trait, so let them live by their own doctrine.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:39 pm
well there is a whole category OTM, which comprise folks from non latin origin points, as far east as South Asia,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:41 pm
Especially in America. Dope.

Can’t recognize flippancy?

Fool.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:43 pm
well there is a whole category OTM, which comprise folks from non latin origin points, as far east as South Asia,

Not to mention all the non-Mexicans who are from Latin America. I’m really surprised Tillman doesn’t know this, or has the hide to pretend not to know it.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:46 pm
Oh Yeah, let’s put Mark in charge of a pogrom. That should work well.
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:46 pm
Elissa, at least I’d recognize sarcasm when I see sarcasm.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:48 pm
Milhouse, did you read the italicized section, of Avakian’s own remarks,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:48 pm
Oh Yeah, let’s put Mark in charge of a pogrom. That should work well.

Um, did you mean that?
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:49 pm
A true conservative would not even joke about that Mark. I thought you were a true conservative. I think I’m detecting some squish squish there.
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:53 pm
Milhouse, did you read the italicized section, of Avakian’s own remarks,

I assume that was in reply to this comment on this thread, but I don’t understand what you are saying, marciso. Specifically which remarks, and how do they support the lie that the Kleins have been banned “from making any statements challenging same sex marriage”?
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:54 pm
Elissa, I see no problem with making these people live as they expect the rest of us to.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:56 pm
There’s a ten-day old Supreme Court case that says that the government must move poor people into rich neighborhoods. If Mohammed won’t go to the mountain ….
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:56 pm
Exactly.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:57 pm
Elissa, you were so bothered the other day about the right piling onto “Mr Sulu.”

Squish, squish.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 4:58 pm
Ridiculous. Perfectly comfortable discussing race on the internet. It’s the self serving blacks basking in their state mandated privileges who want to end any discussion of race, usually with a haughty “Don’t you go there, Whitey.”
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:00 pm
Israel has its own illegal immigration problem, with African refugees sneaking over the border from Egypt. These people have settled mostly in South Tel-Aviv, in the area around the bus terminal, and have made it a hell-hole of crime. Israel is generally a safe place, safer than much of the USA, even taking terrorism into account; but the bus terminal area is one place one should not walk alone, or at all if one doesn’t need to. The poor people who live there and can’t afford to move are suffering.

The Israeli political left and courts (but I repeat myself) have been very supportive of these infiltrators, and have forbidden the government from doing anything about it. Even calling them “infiltrators” is enough to draw a torrent of abuse from the left and the media (but I repeat myself).

Former Member of Knesset Michael Ben-Ari, who is routinely called a “racist” in the media, took a busload of these Africans to a swimming pool in a fashionable area in North Tel-Aviv, where all the leftists live. You should have heard the howls of outrage.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:03 pm
took a busload of these Africans to a swimming pool in a fashionable area in North Tel-Aviv, where all the leftists live

Jeez, he was putting a version of the flippancy or sarcasm illustrated above into actual play.

The left loves to talk the talk. But walk the walk? Not so much.
Mark (e584c3) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:08 pm
No Mark, You are making that up. I was not bothered by the right “piling on” sulu-at all. I merely think sulu is an unimportant idiot on a PR mission. I was bothered by what I perceived as some on the right paying too much attention to sulu, who, after all is just a private citizen in the same ugly class with Cher, Roseanne, Barbara, and Michael Moore–who I also think it’s wise to ignore. But nice try at changing the subject. You love to dish it out, but you can’t take it, as your telling little imbroglio with JD proved to all who were watching yesterday.
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:15 pm
he’s not merely any activists:

In May 2014, the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation honored Takei with the GLAAD Vito Russo Award, which is presented to an openly LGBT media professional who has made a significant difference in promoting equality for the LGBT community.[78]

the legal establishment, here as in Israel, pretends to be high minded, but their attitudes come out re someone like Justice Minister Shaked, ‘who is not of the body;
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:24 pm
Here’s a news report about the swimming pool incident.
Milhouse (a04cc3) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:24 pm
Clarence Thomas, Ben Carson, Allen West, likewise are not considered part of the dialog, just the likes of Dyson, Van Jones, Coates, et al,
narciso (ee1f88) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:27 pm
==There’s a ten-day old Supreme Court case that says that the government must move poor people into rich neighborhoods. If Mohammed won’t go to the mountain ….==

Yes. And the 4 Conservative judges voted against it. (I know you were being tongue in cheek by the way, nk.)
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:30 pm
–In May 2014, the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation honored Takei with the GLAAD Vito Russo Award–

WOW impressive! Is that similar to Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize? 🙂
elissa (344657) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:39 pm
I think of poor Mr. and Mrs. Takei. First FDR locks them up for being Japanese, steals their property to pay for the war effort, then as the cherry on top they find out about young George’s homosexuality, possibly developed in the concentration camp bath house.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:41 pm
Just trying to cheer up Mark, elissa.
nk (dbc370) — 7/5/2015 @ 5:52 pm
How about a discussion of interracial crime?
Michael Ejercito (d9a893) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:32 pm
Elissa – mark does not recognize sarcasm
JD (3b5483) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:38 pm
WOW impressive! Is that similar to Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize?

No, it is not. Takei did stuff that qualifies for his prize, while Obama…..
kishnevi (91d5c6) — 7/5/2015 @ 6:41 pm

7/1/2015

New York Times Asks Why White People Are “Extremely” Uncomfortable Talking About Race

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