Teacher Has Third Grade Students Write Get-Well Cards to Mumia Abu-Jamal
Hope you feel better, Mr. Cop Killer sir!
A teacher in New Jersey who assigned her third-grade class to write “get well” letters to a sick inmate convicted of killing a Philadelphia police officer was suspended Friday, the school superintendent said.
Orange School Superintendent Ronald Lee said in a statement that school administrators “vehemently deny” any knowledge of Marilyn Zuniga’s assignment. Preliminary inquiries found that Zuniga did not seek approval from administrators nor were parents notified, Lee said.
The letters were delivered to Mumia Abu-Jamal in prison following his hospitalization last month for what his family said was treatment for complications from diabetes. The former Black Panther is serving life behind bars for the 1981 murder of white Philadelphia police Officer Daniel Faulkner. His conviction was upheld through years of appeals, but he has gained international support for his claim that he is the victim of a racist justice system.
Glad they suspended her before she got to “Happy Birthday Charlie Manson” week.
These are the people educating your children. Maybe government schools aren’t such a great idea after all?
Ding(aling).
Patterico (9c670f) — 4/11/2015 @ 5:43 pmThe teacher is way hot. Hotter than Debra LeFavre. That said, I hope Mumia’s diabetes runs a particularly painful course.
http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/11/third-grade-teacher-suspended-for-having-students-write-cards-to-cop-killer-mumia-abu-jamal/
Funeral Guy (2b0c22) — 4/11/2015 @ 6:27 pmAny relation to Markos Moulitsas Zuniga?
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 6:30 pmMarilyn Zuniga must be muttering and sputtering: “How dare they! My heart was in the right place!”
Hugs and kisses to Marilyn for being one of those who’s helping speed up America’s trip on that road paved with good intentions.
Mark (4bad5a) — 4/11/2015 @ 6:35 pmteachers are so weird
there’s some sort of purposeful filtering and selection process going on that so many of them are such egregious losers I think
happyfeet (831175) — 4/11/2015 @ 6:35 pmI bet she never even considered having her class send “get well soon” letters to former president George H.W. Bush. (In fact, if the idea were suggested to her, I bet she’d be scandalized.
Steven Den Beste (99cfa1) — 4/11/2015 @ 6:39 pmShe may be hot but she will cut you. Do not call her by the wrong name in an intimate moment.
Gazzer (eae5fa) — 4/11/2015 @ 6:40 pmLove the sinner, hate the sin.
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:16 pmIts the Christian way.
clear this up though
is the sinner the stupid teacher or the murderer guy?
happyfeet (831175) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:20 pmThere’s this whole repentance thingy.
You might want to look it up, Gil.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:21 pmSo Steve, you hate Gay people if they havent repented? I think most have not.
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:23 pmThis is an either or question?
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:25 pmEveryone is a sinner Happy. Even babies. This is a fallen world dontcha know?
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:26 pmThat is why we love all. I am appalled to see complaints for teaching kids to care for a sick sinner. Thats not very Christian.
Gil, I don’t even hate you.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:26 pmmaybe?
i mean stupid is just stupid not necessarily sinful whereas murdering people is its own commandment all by itself
happyfeet (831175) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:27 pmoh my goodness i’m sorry you’re appalled Mr. Gil
I saw where you can book early-riser therapy dog sessions at a seriously attractive discount in some places
i think it was on facebook
if I find the link I’ll post it
happyfeet (831175) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:30 pmSuper! Although why would you? It would seem a big waste of energy to hate some internet person.
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:31 pmSo what does repentance have to do with anything re your comment in #10?
Yeah, I’m having trouble following you.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:33 pmThere’s just this little murder thing going on, Gil. Sorry you’re having trouble separating it from the gay sex thing.
I’m not responsible for how your mind works.
But the whole “love the sinner, hate the sin” dealio depends on the sinner hating the sin.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:37 pmOk so if a sinner does not hate the sin he is committing, then you dont love him?
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:43 pmSeems to me there are a lot of Christians claiming the opposite when it comes to homosexuals.
But the whole “love the sinner, hate the sin” dealio depends on the sinner hating the sin.
really?
i don’t think I agree
happyfeet (831175) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:47 pmhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEK6rshtrzU
Per my limited Portuguese, that would mean to want to call to account.
I say that out of love.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:47 pmWhy no they are most definately not. We should have more homeschooling and less regulation! Why just down my street there is a wonderful couple teaching their kids about the true, young age of the earth and to apply such critical thinking skills as “Everything is possible through God” when confronted with questions about the bible’s accuracy. Heres to more of that!
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:49 pmWhich Christians are those who love the sinner but hate the sin, Gil? I love my sins. I wish I could get away with more. I hate sinners. They’re bad people and not very nice to be around with.
Bleech. Atheists talking about Christian beliefs is like vegans telling people what their favorite cuts of meat should be.
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:49 pmYeah, I’m having trouble following you.
i probably should’ve said NOT murdering people is its own commandment all by itself
like in the Bible where it tells you the rules
there’s a helpful monument thingy in Nebraska City what lists all 10
happyfeet (831175) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:50 pmWhat does the Bible tell me, mr. feets? I thought it told me this:
Romans 14:4
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:55 pmHappy, youre a treasure!
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:55 pmCan you help me though, I struggle with number 9. The commandment is not to covet. Seems to me this is a thought crime. How can a bad thought popping into your head be in God’s top ten list, but not raping be nowhere near? In fact all you really need is 50 shekels of silver rape becomes a great way to find a wife – see Deuteronomy 22:29.
I’m going to save this.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:57 pmTommorow’s Sunday, Gil. They’re still teaching Sunday school before summer break. Stop at any church, wait until the pastor has time to talk to you, and ask to sign up.
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 7:59 pmYeah, that’s not what the commandment is about, s***ferbrains.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:01 pmGiven this demonstration of her poor judgement, it’s probably a good thing they’re 3rd graders… any older, the boys would be in for some highly personal instruction.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:01 pmActually I believe it was St. Augustine who started this. Ive heard it repeated in many sermons. But hey good for you, at least your honest. But riddle me this: If you love your sins and wish you could get away with more doesnt that make you a sinner?
Follow up:
You can get away with sins, just go confess!
Follow up 2:
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:01 pmMaybe you cant, God sees everything!
Ya got me… the 10th. Sorry!
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:03 pmYet another topic derailed by Gil’s loathing of Christianity. Yippee
JD (e5be53) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:06 pmOf the many contemptible things about the left probably the most contemptible is this elevation and admiration for monsters. Its gone on forever, this mamia jabiri guy, the Rosenbergs, Trevon whatsisname, Michael Brown, Hugo Chavez on and on. Find a scum, the left is willing to make him/her a totem.
That cop that this scum shot had a family and was contributing to his community. But no, the left wants his low life killer to be a movie-star buddy hero.
Abu-Jamal has been made an honorary citizen of about 25 cities around the world, including Copenhagen, Montreal, Palermo, and Paris.[111][115] In 2001, he received the sixth biennial Erich Mühsam Prize, named after an anarcho-communist essayist, which recognizes activism in line with that of its namesake.[116] In October 2002, he was made an honorary member of the German political organization Society of People Persecuted by the Nazi Regime – Federation of Anti-Fascists (VVN-BdA)[117] which Germany’s Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution has considered to be influenced by left-wing extremism.[118]
I spit.
red (2f19f1) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:11 pmI don’t know where to start with these people, coronello.
Is this hard? The commandment against coveting isn’t about a stray thought popping into your head. It’s about an act.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:12 pmYou see your neighbor has a sixty inch flat screen TV. You want one too.
Not a sin.
Put in motion a plan to take your neighbor’s new TV.
Hello, sin!
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:15 pm“Why no they are most definately not. We should have more homeschooling and less regulation!”
Gil – Why not charter schools, they seem to be doing a dandy job in many cases?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:15 pmI’m out of spit.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:16 pmLove the sinner, hate the sin.
Its the Christian way.
And the liberal way is to hate conservatives, or even non-liberals. For example, the left’s response to a truly right-leaning, truly conservative gay person?
“You’re a self-loathing closet case!”
Or a truly right-leaning, truly conservative black person?
“You’re an Oreo and Uncle Tom!”
Even staunch moderates in either category will, at best, elicit a shrug and yawn from the left.
I actually don’t mind liberals responding in that matter. I mainly resent that they see themselves as being so full of sophistication, tolerance and love-love-love.
Mark (4bad5a) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:30 pmMumia Abu-Jamal is an enigma, a mystery, a paradox … an innocent man who according to all the facts appears to be guilty.
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:35 pmJust like that children’s writer, Tookie Smith.
Gazzer (eae5fa) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:37 pmI heare he’s voting a straight Democratic ticket in Chicago, again.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:45 pmI put that last part in about Chicago just because.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:47 pmIt went right over my head at first, but i see what you did there.
Gazzer (eae5fa) — 4/11/2015 @ 8:57 pmTo covet is to desire, to want, or wish for. These are things you do by thinking. Are you saying this is not a commandment against a though crime? There is also no set time limit described in the commandment. Taking it by the words by their meaning – isnt this the gold standard (Originalists Im looking at you) – the commandment can be understood to apply to a stray thought.
By the way, whats the deal with implicitly comparing your neighbor’s wife to his donkey or ox by listing her as an examples of what not to covet?
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 9:05 pmI can’t help you, Gil. You are so determined to be wrong no one can.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 9:12 pmSeriously, Gil, sign up for catechism. You’re like a first grader trying to discuss calculus.
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 9:20 pmIt wouldn’t be so bad to listen to your bibble babble if it wasn’t driven by your profound ignorance
JD (c6d53c) — 4/11/2015 @ 9:38 pmStandard responses.
I love the “go sign up for catechism” line.
Here’s an idea – think for yourself.
“Youre wrong Gil! Go talk to someone else and see why” hah.
It’s quite simple. Coveting is a thought process. If you need apologetics and deep explanations to help convince yourself otherwise that goes to how deeply stuck you are in a state of cognitive dissonance. The standard is to go by what words mean and by Occam’s razor. But not here, no!
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 10:01 pmGil,
So Adam and Eve are sitting in the Garden and Eve turns to Adam and asks “Do you love me?” And Adam says ___________________. Fill in the blank, Gil.
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 10:09 pm“what is love”?
Now you fill one in:
Gil (27c98f) — 4/11/2015 @ 10:46 pmAdam and Eve have been kicked out of the Garden and Adam turns to Eve and asks “How many generations of inbreeding will be required to populate the earth?” And Eve says ___________.
Nope, Adam said “Who else?” See, Gil? You are a humorless jackass and that’s why nobody likes you.
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 10:51 pmI have no idea what Eve says. If that is important to you, go have fun with it. It’s your life. Why do you bother with this?
Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 4/11/2015 @ 10:59 pmIt’s not all gay hatred and xenophobia at Casa de Steve57. Svetlana Zakharova dances the Carmen Suite.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKNpitsz-v0
Sure. rabid hatred of gays and xenophobia ‘splians a lot of it. But it’s not the whole story.
There’s also the heteronormative patriarchy. Which is prolly the only reason I can appreciate Svetlana’s dance on any level.
Ugg. Ungawa.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 11:03 pmChrist is Risen. The Greek Easter Hymn with Vangelis and Irene Papas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKwizUzyj0I Enjoy. You too, Gil.
nk (dbc370) — 4/11/2015 @ 11:05 pmHappy Easter, nk.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 11:13 pm“So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”
I love all. It is not difficult. Some may hate me because I choose to love all. Some may hate me because Jesus told me to love all. Some may hate me because others have chosen to follow hate. I can’t judge them. I can’t judge you. It’s beyond my pay grade.
Thanks, though.
Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 4/11/2015 @ 11:19 pmSo, there is a notion of being able to tell the difference.
Not just going with what the next swinging d*** declares to be love. As in, “Your God commands you to love. If you were really Christian you’d love X. Cuz my feelings will be hurt if you don’t.”
We’re supposed to be able to say, “Nah, I can’t love that.”
Right, h8rs?
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 11:32 pmI’m not a sophisticate, in case there was any confusion.
Once you get past “Cosi fan tutte” in the world of opera and “Swan Lake” or “Carmen” in ballet the well is pretty well totally, ahem, run dry.
I hear the Nutcracker is a ballet. Not that I would know. I was gettin’ busy with a Cleveland Ford that weekend.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/11/2015 @ 11:44 pmDoesn’t Gil get a lick?
Patterico (9c670f) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:29 amHappy Greek Easter, nk.
nk-do you have a recipe for lamb shoulder?
mg (31009b) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:07 amThere’s a reason the Bill Ayers, Bernadine Dohrn’s and Angela Davis’s of the world went into education, to produce teachers like Ms. Zuniga. Given the awful state of public education, and the election of fellow radical BO, they have done a bang up job.
Ipso Fatso (10964d) — 4/12/2015 @ 3:34 amSeveral, mg. Do you like it oven roasted with potatoes; with olive oil, lemon, oregano and garlic? Or in an egg lemon sauce with artichokes, or celery and shallots, or lettuce and shallots? How about in a sweet(ish) red sauce with cinnamon with potatoes and eggplant and okra?
Today I’m going to cut up two racks of lambs into chops and grill them with just salt, pepper, and a lemon/olive/oregano baste. Very like this, simpler since it’s the grill and the gunk runs off. http://krites.blogspot.com/2009/12/broiled-lamb-and-greek-village-salad.html
nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2015 @ 5:22 amComforting the sick and the prisoner are good things. But it’s not something 8-year olds should be forced to do by some Social Justice Wanton Pickle.
nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2015 @ 5:31 am“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:33 amThat’s just Gil’s dishonest way of excusing the teacher’s support for murder.
there’s some sort of purposeful filtering and selection process going on
It’s called the bottom quintile of college students choosing education majors.
Mike K (90dfdc) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:58 amMike K, I was a 33 on the ACT and a 1460 on the SAT, and I was a 4.0 in Engineering/Pre-Law at Tulane for three semesters before I had the courage it took to tell my parents, being the first in my family to go to college, that I hated what I was doing, and wanted to teach. I spent the next three years enjoying my life, still making A’s but celebrating the idea that I would do what I loved, and never looked back.
No, I was not the exception to your rule. I knew then, and know now, many extremely intelligent people who chose to teach rather than something else. Are there those like this teacher who teach what you don’t believe? Yes, and there are those UNLIKE her too.
Your point here is no different than Gil’s points. Try something else.
reff (4dcda2) — 4/12/2015 @ 7:23 am” Try something else.”
When I was planning to retire to some property I owned on Vashon Island in Puget Sound, I thought it might be fun to teach high school biology for something to do. I made some inquiries. How many education methodology courses did you take ?
I dropped the idea. The vast majority of people choosing education majors are going to teach elementary ed. That is the bottom quintile. Second career teachers are the exception.
Are you in this group ?
I think your ego is speaking, not your common sense.
Mike K (90dfdc) — 4/12/2015 @ 7:38 amI went to Chicago’s (then) premier magnet school. We had three kinds of teachers: 1) Those who wanted to be vice-principals and used it as a stepping stone; 2) those who wanted a sinecure and coasted on the students who were Chicago Public Schools’ best and brightest; and 2) talented, dedicated teachers who appreciated whom they were teaching and taught us well. I learned more Chemistry, and also how to look out for the bartender switching brand whiskey for bar whiskey after the first drink, from my high school teacher than I did in three semesters of college.
nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2015 @ 7:41 amThis was 1971-75 and most were WWII generation with only a few, yet, who went to college primarily to avoid the Vietnam draft.
nk (dbc370) — 4/12/2015 @ 7:43 amnk, I am not diminishing high school teachers. My youngest daughter had a high school chemistry teacher with a PhD. It was also private school and the private school teachers I knew were mostly making less money than they would in public school. Nonetheless, it is a fact that education majors in college come from the bottom quintile of students.
My ex-wife, who was an education major in the early 1960s, went into banking after we divorced in 1978. She got laid off in a bank merger at the time Pete Wilson had expanded teachers’ numbers to reduce class size in California. That was a period when teacher candidates were complaining at the requirement that they take the CBEST exam, which my ex said was 8th grade level math. Anyway, she taught for about a year as a temp until she got another bank job.
She was appalled at what she saw in public school in a middle class area of Los Angles. The teachers were dumb and they made fun of the kids in their break room. She had always been a public school advocate. She told me that after that experience, if she were doing it again, she would home school the kids. She said she told one second grade teacher that she had done a good job at reading readiness with her students and the woman burst into tears. No one had ever complimented her.
Anyway, she had lots of stories about her 9 months teaching after 20 years off.
Mike K (90dfdc) — 4/12/2015 @ 8:02 amVery good. You are all slowly getting to the crux of the problem. Most of the teachers who chose to teach in the ’50s ’60s and ’70s are not the same teachers who choose to go into teaching now. In particular, highly educated and very intelligent women these days have many career options –the choice to go into politics, law, medicine, aviation, to manage companies, etc.etc.. Previously individuals in this group were basically limited to being teachers, librarians, secretaries and nurses in mid century America. These were and are honorable professions and the nursing and teaching professions often got the cream of this earlier crop of female candidates. There are still some wonderful and dedicated teachers coming into the profession. An unfortunate fact is, however, that too many teachers now are hired because they are bi-lingual or part of a quota–not because they are great subject matter teachers or have the gravitas and temperament to teach children.
elissa (a01764) — 4/12/2015 @ 8:39 amhighly educated and very intelligent women these days have many career options
I think this may be the most important fact of all. Many women who might have been nurses are now doctors but the same dynamic does not operate with teachers.
Mike K (90dfdc) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:01 amI would add that the hysteria about male teachers and child abuse has closed off half the applicant pool for much of the country. One of my daughter’s favorite teachers was a male 8th grade teacher whose wife was also a teacher at the same school (private).
Mike K (90dfdc) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:03 amGood point, elissa. I think another factor is that school administrators don’t pick the same kind of people to be teachers. They look for different qualities.
DRJ (e80d46) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:04 amThen there’s the massive growth in school administration.
It isn’t just that the same old administrators are hiring different teachers.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:11 amGreetings:
Hopefully, her replacement will have the class write “Get Employed” cards to her.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:11 amI’m having a little trip down memory lane. When my third grade teacher wanted to teach us letter writing skills and proper business format she had us write formal letters to companies and businesses who were advertising that they offered free samples or pamphlets. She “approved’ all the letters before we sent them off and then we had a day near the end of the school year where we brought in all our free stuff to show. Some of the haul was pretty funny and much of it pretty useless, but over all it was an empowering and engaging exercise for a kid.
Yes. I know this was when dinosaurs roamed the earth and we have email and twitter now.
elissa (a01764) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:30 amMy high school had a room full of typewriters. Where you could learn typing.
This must have been the first amphibians crawled out of the oceans.
Speaking of ancient history, there were whole departments that didn’t exist when I went to college. There were no six figure positions for vice chancellors of equity and diversity, with their attendant staffs.
There is a reason why college costs more now, and why you get less for your money. You’re supporting as much administration as faculty, most of which doesn’t do anything worth doing. I’m pretty sure this has trickled down to the k-12 level of the educational establishment.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:54 am* This must have been when the first …
My keyboard woes continue. Ironically when discussing typing.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:55 amthank you, nk.
mg (31009b) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:58 amIn so many ways top heavy public school administrations/bureaucracies are indeed a big part of the problem, DRJ and Steve57. Meeting idiosyncratic numeric targets from hiring to testing instead of seeking good lifetime individual student and teacher outcomes is a horrible waste of …well everything.
elissa (a01764) — 4/12/2015 @ 10:01 amShe was appalled at what she saw in public school in a middle class area of Los Angles. The teachers were dumb and they made fun of the kids in their break room.
That paints a frightening picture, if only because it doesn’t even include the nature of a growing percentage of such teachers’ student body increasingly common throughout the US — certainly throughout urban areas like LA in particular, throughout urban America (and beyond) in general (eg, the dysfunction hitting even areas like around Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, obscure sections of the Midwest, etc) — yet generally greeted with a shrug and a happy pat on the head (“we’ll gladly increase taxes for public education!!”) by much of the American electorate.
Hope and change, and onward and upward.
Mark (4bad5a) — 4/12/2015 @ 10:39 amhttps://www.facebook.com/NAVSCIATTS/photos/pb.100828030010704.-2207520000.1428858443./653602744733227/?type=1&theater
This is what happens when your educational establishment goes pear shaped.
Ethos magazine.
I know a few SEALs and Special Warfare Combatant Crewmen.
And let me say up front I’m not one of them. By way of analogy, they’re the golfers in the tournament. I’m driving the bar cart with the strippers.
None of them are waiting for the day this magazine shows up in their mail box. Good to see the porkchops have awarded themselves a new warfare pin. And, really, what SEAL isn’t dying to know that?
But I bet the administrators who came up with the idea of this mag are really happy with it.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 10:49 amDeer Muummi;
Sad to heer yoour not feeling well.
Hop you dy soon to save the state some muney.
To bad it took so long.
So long hope it’s painful.
Your friend jakkee
jakee308 (49ccc6) — 4/12/2015 @ 11:18 amI hope when Gil sobers up her realizes how profoundly ignorant he is. Lol. Yeah right, aggressive ignorance is his MO
JD (7f7589) — 4/12/2015 @ 11:25 amJD–It is very interesting to observe how much Gil wanted to talk about all kinds of things, but he certainly did NOT want us to talk about Mumia, the subject of this thread.
elissa (a01764) — 4/12/2015 @ 11:34 amOne might think that my continued references to Monsignor Georges Lemaitre’s “big bang” theory and the resulting evidence that the universe is 13.8 billion years old would indicate I’m not a “young earth” creationist.
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2013/21mar_cmb/
Alas, you just can’t lay down enough bread crumbs for some people.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 11:42 amIt’s just easier.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 11:43 amWhy is a stupid action by one public schoolteacher a reason to indict the entire public school system? Does a charter school executive embezzling money from the school mean that we should abolish such schools?
Jonny Scrum-half (c7cc7e) — 4/12/2015 @ 12:36 pmRegarding the performance of public-school teachers, the National Assessment for Educational Progress reported in 2012 that “compared to the first assessment in 1971 for reading and in 1973 for mathematics, scores were higher in 2012 for 9- and 13-year-olds and not significantly different for 17-year-olds.” It’s simply not true that students are performing worse now than they did 40 years ago.
How did they do in math? Science?
JD (7f7589) — 4/12/2015 @ 12:41 pmHow did those scores compare to our competition? Your “stat” is meaningless.
JD (7f7589) — 4/12/2015 @ 12:42 pm==Why is a stupid action by one public schoolteacher a reason to indict the entire public school system==
Oh there are plenty more, Jonny. Teh google is your friend. By the way, did those marvelous recent test scores you mention include the cheating scandal and corruption by the Atlanta School system, and how many other school systems played the same or similaar games to “raise their students’ test scores”?
elissa (e94370) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:21 pmhttp://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/02/us/verdict-reached-in-atlanta-school-testing-trial.html
elissa (e94370) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:26 pmJD@93 – What “competition”? If you mean other countries, they don’t take the NAEP.
Jonny Scrum-half (c7cc7e) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:27 pmelissa@94 – Google is, indeed, your friend. I’m not aware of any NAEP cheating scandal. The Atlanta tests weren’t NAEP.
Jonny Scrum-half (c7cc7e) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:28 pmhttp://news.yahoo.com/video/amid-cheating-scandal-provost-questions-022435162-cbs.html
Why did all those Stanford students cheat?
One possibility is that’s how they got there.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:28 pmWell then! You’ve told us, Mr. Johnny Scrum-half.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:30 pmLOL Jonny–way to try to change the subject from “Why is a stupid action by one public school teacher a reason to indict the entire public school system. Good allah.
elissa (e94370) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:34 pm#78
steveg (794291) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:42 pmYeah.
With the Golden Arches on it
“Dear Mumia: Sorry you’re not feeling well.
askeptic (efcf22) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:51 pmFYVM!”
I’m still angry that the print of the Union victory at the Naval battle of Vicksburg showed up torn.
That could explain a lot.
ebay.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:55 pmJonny
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/is-your-a-student-really-ready-for-college/
steveg (794291) — 4/12/2015 @ 1:56 pmSteve@104 – I’m not sure what you’re trying to tell me. If you want me to concede that there’s grade inflation, you won’t find me fighting that.
elissa@100 – I’m not changing the subject. I thought that you were suggesting that cheating was behind the NAEP test scores. I now see what you’re saying, but if you don’t think that charter schools have cheating scandals, then you’re not looking too hard.
Jonny Scrum-half (c7cc7e) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:02 pmJonny doesn’t actually care about any of this. He just likes to pretend he’s hall monitor.
elissa (e94370) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:05 pm#16
hf
I think we should remember to protect all of Gods creations from being misused… maybe a therapy crocodile for Mumia could free him from the life that binds him to the unjust here on earth.
steveg (794291) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:05 pmImagine Mumia set free to confront an all knowing God with his own version of the truth…
Ain’t no thang.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:25 pmjonny
the real story is that high school teachers think they’ve done an awesome job (by inflating grades), but only 29% of college professors think the kids are ready for college… and by most accounts first year college curriculum is remedial. English Composition and Writing used to be a 10th grade class. (one I obviously ditched).
According to complete college .org 50.1% of students that attend JC need remediation and 20.7% of bachelor degree seekers do as well.
steveg (794291) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:26 pmMaybe this is why:http://chronicle.com/article/Do-Education-Programs-Dole-Out/149947/
yes yes a saltwater one with mischief in his eye
happyfeet (831175) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:26 pmsteveg @106, mosquitoes spring first to mind.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:30 pmI suggest buying a townhome and running for a spot on the HOA.
steveg (794291) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:35 pmThen you can tell people that their geraniums are only allowed in pink and are to be planted in an yellow-orange 24″X8″ cylindrical pot placed no more than 32″ from their back door or risk fines and eventually foreclosure. Never mind that the back yard is fenced and the only way to see in is when the HOA nitwits stand on a step ladder…
#112 was to all adult hall monitors… you know who you are…
steveg (794291) — 4/12/2015 @ 2:37 pmmuch as Mumia was the first iteration of narrative scrub,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 3:17 pmI’m a little late to the party, but Gil is right on a couple of points so I feel the need to defend him against those who say he does not understand Christianity. Gil is right that Christians should love even unrepentant sinners. After all God loved us enough to die for us even when we were unrepentant. But love for unrepentant gays does not make you accept their sins, just like love for an unrepentant alcoholic does not make you accept that there is nothing wrong with spending his whole life in a fog of alcohol. Instead, it leads you to pray that God will give the sinner the grace to overcome sin so that they can lead a more whole and fulfilling life.
Also, Gil is right that coveting is very similar to a thought crime. But coveting is not just having a momentary desire for something. Coveting is obsessive desire, the sort that leads you to envy and hate those who have what you do not. Coveting is not something that just happens to you; it is an attitude that you build up over time by continually dwelling on what you can’t have and making yourself miserable over it. Even very strong desire may not be a sin if it is not obsessive and if you direct it in constructive ways (Although very strong desires for things of this earth do imply that your mind is in the wrong place. You should be laying up for yourself treasures in heaven).
There are lots of sins that are just sins of the mind and therefore are similar to thought crimes, including the sin of rejecting God.
Cugel (0b4507) — 4/12/2015 @ 3:23 pmCugel,
I agree with your points, and I imagine most defenders of the Christian faith on this site would agree as well with the way you are careful to make clarification.
It may be not so much that Gil doesn’t understand Christianity, it is that he thinks he knows it well enough to completely discredit it as “fairy tales from bronze age peasants” (that likely is not the direct quote, but I think it captures the intent.) There is a history of interacting with Gil that you may not be aware of.
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/12/2015 @ 4:02 pmBut clear enunciation of important concepts is always welcome, IMHO.
well jesus forgives, but that is not a license to continue to sin, this was an argument that Paul among others actually had to be debate, our world is so fallen, it has assumed that sin is the natural state, and virtue is the exception,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 4:07 pmit has assumed that sin is the natural state, and virtue is the exception,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 4:07 pm
Again, I agree with your opening point, but isn’t that part true?
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/12/2015 @ 5:16 pmJesus not only saves from the eternal consequences of sin, but also from the power of sin in the present, for the same power that raised Jesus from the dead now gives life to our mortal bodies, not to live according to the flesh, but to put to death the deeds of the flesh.
But in general it seems we have a poor grasp of this concept, and even poorer experience of it.
Sin is the natural state, to be a Christian walking in the light is a super(supra?)natural state.
By God’s common grace, some do practice more virtue than others even though they do not know God.
well you understand what I mean, so the world encourages sin, and makes the virtuous seem strange, so Mumia like Peltier, is either given an alibi, or their acts are rationalized,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 5:20 pmthe lives of Danny Faulkner, and those S. Dakota patrolmen are unpersons,
Take what you want, God said to the red wolf. Take what you want and pay.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 5:52 pm@Cugel
Thanks for your post.
Even if I concede your definition of coveting, which again is an interpretation inserting meaning beyong what the words actually say, it is still deplorable to make a thought crime as a sin. Take #1 – not to have other gods. So lets say a person who grew up Christian changes in his belief and is now a Hindu. He is violating this commandment right? Well he is doing so because of a belief. You do not control your beliefs. Hypothetically, could someone put a gun to your head and force you to believe that 2 + 2 = 5?
@Mark
Clarification – I have compared Christianity to fairy tales written in the iron age. From my perspective there just is no good reason to believe otherwise – it has nothing to do with the amount of knowledge I have about Christianity. It has to do with standards of evidence. I think it is important for one to strive to believe true things based on evidence. Regarding this “history of interacting with Gil”, whatever your big historic reason is to not even discuss something with me is, where have i validated it in this thread?
Gil (27c98f) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:02 pmDennis Cook shot a cop in cold blood, his defenders thought to hide that fact, much as with Peltier or the modern narratives, from Sanford apparently to North Charleston,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:07 pmYou validate it every time you attempt to squirrel a topic and show everyone AGAIN how much you do not understand yet hate religious folks.
JD (7f7589) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:16 pm== From my perspective there just is no good reason to believe otherwise==
Gil–I wish there were a nicer way to say this, but I don’t think there’s a single person here who cares one way or the other what your your “perspective” is, or what you personally believe or don’t believe, or why. You’re kind of like a nosy neighbor who inexplicably pops in at inopportune times to share that she doesn’t like the color of your new car, or that she wishes the old neighbors still lived in your house because they invited her over more. Who Cares? Nobody’s trying to convert you that I can see, and you are certainly not “dissuading anybody else about their own beliefs. This is the internet, Dude! It seems so silly for you to intrude and jack so many threads on the same subject time and time again, and insult total strangers. For what?
elissa (05bdf3) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:20 pmhe rides a giant Squirrel, doesn’t he,?
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:23 pmElissa – Gil is the obnoxious guest at a dinner party that says something to offend someone, then acts as though it was not his fault.
JD (7f7589) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:23 pmwell the sacred scrolls of Maher and Colbert can’t be wrong,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:27 pmClarification – I have compared Christianity to fairy tales written in the iron age
But you should consider its grasp of human nature through the eons, in all its glory but also with all its foibles, as being a hell of a lot more reliable, accurate and interesting than anything in a book penned by, say, Karl Marx (ie, The Communist Manifesto) or Obama (ie, “Dreams From My Father”), etc.
Mark (4bad5a) — 4/12/2015 @ 6:35 pmCugel-
Ummm, yeah.
yes, narciso
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/12/2015 @ 7:05 pm“it is still deplorable to make a thought crime as a sin”
Gil – Yet you keep trying the equivalent in thread after thread after thread. Do you own any mirrors?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/12/2015 @ 8:06 pmwhich reference, the squirrel or the scrolls?
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/12/2015 @ 8:09 pmTake your pic, my friend.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/12/2015 @ 9:52 pmthe first one that had me confused
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/13/2015 @ 4:58 amA bit more subtle than that: You want one just like it? Not a sin at all. But if you want that one, that is the beginning of sin, because of necessity you want him not to have it. Make plans to obtain it (i.e. to deprive him of it), even legitimate ones such as making him an offer to buy it, and you’ve started down a path of ill-will and rivalry, which can lead nowhere good.
Milhouse (bdebad) — 4/13/2015 @ 6:38 amThe key point of religion, any religion, is that you don’t get to tell Him what’s deplorable. He tells you, and you adjust your standards to bring them into compliance with His.
Milhouse (bdebad) — 4/13/2015 @ 6:50 amI tend to your point of view, too, Milhouse. I would add jealousy/resentment for people who have what you do not as a serious aggravating factor, if not the core of the sin itself.
I see a guy driving by with Lamborghini once in a while. (I think he’s high up in the Chicago Bulls organization.) I don’t think there’s anything wrong with admiring the car and daydreaming about winning inventing a better mousetrap and being able to buy one too. I think there’s something seriously wrong with “That rich SOB. Why should he have a car like that and not me?”
nk (dbc370) — 4/13/2015 @ 7:27 am
nk (dbc370) — 4/13/2015 @ 7:28 amwinningThis is a cool feel good story about a teacher who did the right thing, got suspended and screwed over by the administration, quit, and ran for the school board where he was rewarded by voters.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/batavia-geneva-st-charles/news/ct-tri-batavia-teacher-elected-school-board-tl-0416-20150411-story.html
elissa (7ec47c) — 4/13/2015 @ 12:21 pmi hope he proves to be an effective change agent what can implement new modalities that will work to right-size the organization and effectively incorporate feedback from all stakeholders
happyfeet (a037ad) — 4/13/2015 @ 12:35 pmThank you, elissa.
May he go from school board to mayor to governor to presidential candidate and even president if he’s good enough.
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/13/2015 @ 12:36 pmYou left out “leveraging,” “global commons,” “Six Sigma blackbelt,” and “Paradigm breaking.”
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/13/2015 @ 1:07 pmAnd he forgot to mention “the wheelhouse”, too.
elissa (9a9efc) — 4/13/2015 @ 1:22 pmBeing on the school board is all well and good, but now he’ll have to find a job.
bobathome (ef0d3a) — 4/13/2015 @ 1:25 pmGood catch.
Steve57 (cd6f9a) — 4/13/2015 @ 1:28 pmGil, you are conflating temptation with sin. Temptation is something that happens to you. Sin is something that you do. There is no guilt in being tempted, but only in acting on that temptation. Being sexually attracted to another man’s wife or to another person of the same sex as yourself, or to a fourteen year old girl is not in itself a sin. What is a sin is if you dwell on the attraction, embracing it and enjoying it rather than trying to push it away–or acting on it, of course.
This is different from a related issue that you bring up–the issue that not believing in God is a sin. That issue is a genuine problem for rationalist Christians (of which I am one). There are several solutions to this problem, but some Christians are not satisfied with any of them (or don’t know them), yet still believe. Does this make them foolish?
Did you know that modern physics is inconsistent? According to quantum mechanics, some interactions are instantaneous, but according to relativity, that’s impossible. However there are still lots of very smart people who believe in both quantum mechanics and relativity. How can they do that? By being humble and admitting that there are things they don’t know, so that an apparent contradiction has a solution; they just don’t know what the solution is. Why would you demand a higher standard from Christians for their faith than you demand from nuclear physicists for their theories?
Finally, as to your claim that Christianity is no better supported than fairy tales, the main thing this tells me is that you have never read a book of Christian apologetics. I won’t try to write any apologetics here, I’ll just point out that for two thousand years, most educated westerners have believed in God and considered fairy tales to be obviously fiction. And before the 1800s, most of them knew a lot more about the topic than you do. Do you think that maybe, just maybe Galileo and Newton, and Descartes and Kant knew something that you don’t? That maybe they were not silly ignorant fools who just missed the obvious fact that Christianity is no different from Little Red Riding Hood?
Maybe before you go making broad statements like that, you should do a little research. And research doesn’t mean just reading authors who will confirm what you want to believe.
Cugel (4d233e) — 4/13/2015 @ 7:19 pm@ Cugel
Great post would love to discuss more!
Im short on time heres a first pass.
Believing in god, or not being able to reconcile or be satisfied with a problem within religion as this is does not make you foolish, just mistaken. All people make mistakes.
While not a phsyicist myself I do know that at the very small scale, the Theory of Gravity cannot be reconciled with quantum physics and that this is a problem physicists are working to resolve. I would take issue with your use of “believe” here. They accept both quantum physics and gravity as being good predictive models and are working to reconcile them. They dont claim to know the answer, but are hoping to find one. The reason for the higher standard is that physicists are working in evidence based methods, while Christians / apologists are not.
I have watched many talks and debates including well known apologists ranging from those that try to make “scientific” based rationalizations Frank Tureq, William L Craig, and those that make presupositionalist claims (Matt Slick, Sye Ten Bruggencate) to name a few. The problem is these all fall short of being evidence based and there are many valid objections to them.
Because many smart (brilliant even) people in the past believed something is not a reason to believe it today. It is not a way to understand what is true either, many religions could point to the past and find smart people who believed in their particular belief. Newton was an alchemist. Should we be looking into that today? This does not make them fools. Again, religious people are not fools, they simply believe something that it seems to me (and a lot of people) to not have good reason.
Why dont you tell me your best reason, why you believe, and lets discuss. Im happy to take the discussion out of the forum if you want to. Let me know
-Gil
Gil (27c98f) — 4/14/2015 @ 3:34 amCugel-
Feel free to share your thoughts for the general edification of those of us who are interested,
but do not expect Gil to demonstrate any interest.
He has quickly dismissed things I’ve suggested in the past without bothering to read them for meaning, he knows he is right and has no need to thoughtfully entertain anything that does not immediately fall in line with his preconceived notions,
His last comment has been used before, and he apparently loves to engage in conversation, whether he enjoys wasting a believer’s time or showing off his superior wisdom and intellect (as he sees it) I do not know.
For example, “Newton was an alchemist”, so toss him on the garbage heap of fools, no matter what (many?, most?, nearly all?) historians of science would say.
I’ve recommended that he read:
Science and Christianity: Conflict or Coherence? Paperback – June 1, 2013 by Henry F. Schaefer III
for a modern account of scientists who believe/ed in God written by a prominent scientist as an alternative view,
but I don’t think he has, and even if he did it would not be of help to him unless he is willing to consider he could be wrong.
While we are at it, my 2 cents is that one cannot prove God, but one looks at all of the evidence for and against, looks for a coherent and consistent world view that fits the evidence, and then you make a choice (per “A Sword that Cuts Both Ways” in Brothers Karamazov).
As far as not having faith in God being a sin, Scripture teaches (as you may well know) that we all have been given adequate knowledge to believe in God, and if we don’t, it’s because we don’t want to believe in Him and face the ramifications for our life.
I hope you take this as I intend it, not as telling you what to do, but letting you know my own and our collective experience with Gil.
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 5:57 amResponses to his posts by praying for him are probably more to his benefit than spending the time engaging in discussion,
but yes, I understand very well the desire not to let falsehoods and misconceptions have the last word.
there is a greater force in the universe, then we are willing to admit, from that error, which makes us think we are like gods, which was the serpent’s original temptation, flows all others,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/14/2015 @ 6:25 amwhich in one way is simply the serpent “trying to take people with him”
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 6:36 amin his error of trying to be like God
“Lord, I believe; help Thou my unbelief.”
(I think that was Thomas Aquinas; Gil can tell us if it was St. Augustine instead, since he has read him.)
nk (dbc370) — 4/14/2015 @ 6:45 amMark 9;24, muc much of the wickedness in the world seems to stem from that misconceptions
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/14/2015 @ 6:53 amOne of my most thought of verses and prayer requests,
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 7:01 amthat,
and Peter’s triumphant, exuberant, and faith filled comments (sarc.)
“Lord, where else would we go?”
Thank you, narciso. Thomas Aquinas was recommending it as a prayer or discussing his own journey, maybe? It’s been some 35 years since I read him.
nk (dbc370) — 4/14/2015 @ 7:02 amLike Adam said to Eve, MD? 😉
nk (dbc370) — 4/14/2015 @ 7:04 amAt some point, it would have crossed the mind of any teacher who isn’t an absolute moron that this was not a good career move; how could anyone with any sense not realize that there might be some controversy behind this?
The teacher should be fired, not for sympathizing with
The Dana who isn't a teacher (f6a568) — 4/14/2015 @ 7:30 amMumia abu JamalWesley Cook, but for being too fornicating stupid to hold her job.155.
Probably figured that the teacher’s union will protect her.
But this thread validates the observation of that old socialist GBS
kishnevi (9c4b9c) — 4/14/2015 @ 7:46 amThose that can, do. Those that can’t, teach.
True, nk
Dana, there are many people who are so insulated they would have no clue it was a big deal,
like the Philly public high school teacher that gave a student a real hard time over wearing a Romney for president T shirt. The teacher told her that it was a “Democratic” school and that she wasn’t allowed to wear it and was told to take it off, and mocked her in front of other students and staff.
The old, “I never knew anyone who voted for Nixon” phenomenon.
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 7:48 amI have shown interest in what people believe. When you point to a book and say “I believe because what it says in there” there really is nothing more I can discuss with you. If you would bring out a reason in your own words im happy to. It has nothing to do with me knowing more than anyone else.
I spent most of my last post explaining that I do not think believers are fools, or that Newton was one. Regardless you are reducing my comments to a claim that Newton was a fool. He was not. He was brilliant, probably one of the most brilliant mind of all time.
Again, I am open to accept the God claim if it could be demonstrated to be true. I am not asserting that I am right, only objecting to positive claims.
There is no evidence against God MD. There are natural phenomena that we understand that require no God to run. When I drop a ball, Gravity makes it drop to the floor. That is all the explanation required. My understanding does not have to be “god is pushing the ball down to the ground by using gravity”. When I dont know how something works, I simply say I dont know, not that I do know and that the answer is God. How did life begin? I dont know. Not “I do know: God did it”.
Regarding your explanation about rejecting god being a sin: While a nice answer, it is not so satisfying. How is it established that we really have been given this knowledge? I dont think it is testable in any objective manner. The only thing left is to resort to a circle: We know there is a God because scripture says we have been given this knowledge, and we know scripture is true because it was inspired by God.
Cugel – judge for yourself who is misrepresenting whom, and who has made honest points and objections. If you want to further discuss without the need to “score points” on this forum email me alalbobal11 at mail dot com.
Gil (febf10) — 4/14/2015 @ 7:57 amit’s a recurring theme, probably Augustine dwelled upon it, the nature of the Cave, which one might say is Plato’s way of describing the devil’s cloak, requires this affirmation,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/14/2015 @ 8:02 amCugel, I suspect Gil’s motives to be centripetal, and engaging him further would be nuncupatory. However, I think you are clever and have already figured that out.
nk (dbc370) — 4/14/2015 @ 8:05 amthose are very cromulent responses
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/14/2015 @ 8:08 amGil, if God does not exist then this universe is merely a randon accident, its apparent order merely being a bubble of randomness. Given enough monkeys, enough time, enough typewriters, at least one monkey will type a sensible sentence.
kishnevi (91d5c6) — 4/14/2015 @ 8:15 amIf everything is random, than nothing has inherent meaning. Human knowledge has no value.
In sum, atheism reduces to nihilism.
Religion is the proposition that life and the universe have inherent worth and value because they are not random events.
“I am not asserting that I am right, only objecting to positive claims.”
Gil – I’m glad you have admitted that you have no presented any evidence to support your assertions. As you are well aware, hand waving, conclusory, statements are not evidence, which is what most of your comments consist of here.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/14/2015 @ 8:52 amGiven enough monkeys, enough time, enough typewriters, at least one monkey will type a sensible sentence.
I guess by Gil’s conditions, Gil’s comments could have been written by monkeys as well.
narciso, If you have quick access to Augustine on the cave I would love to see it,
otherwise I don’t know how much time it would take me to find it.
While not “proof”, when the probability of some things we observe in the universe approach the probability of all oxygen molecules choosing to exit your vicinity at the same time, then you have to wonder.
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:03 amNo, I haven’t done the calculations and it might not work out, but just a thought. I only have minimal background in stats.
daley,
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:05 amnow you’ve done it. On to the discussion about atheism vs. agnosticism and his moving the goalposts as to which he really professes to be depending on the moment.
nk, I know you have such a large vocabulary because you are Greek are so many of our words come from Greek. I saw that in a movie once.
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:06 ambut is narciso Greek too?
a similar sentiment but no:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godandthemachine/2012/11/st-augustines-medicine-for-doubt/
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:14 amMD in Philly – Sorry about that. I just have a desire to know what’s true and Gil has not presented any “evidence” for his beliefs, largely just conclusory, derogatory statements about the beliefs of others. He has not met the burden of proof standard to which he is attempting to hold others and is a waste of time.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:18 amCugel the Clever, centripetal, and nuncupatory are from Jack Vance.
Cromulent is a neologism from a Simpsons episode, Lisa the Iconoclast according to teh webz.
nk (dbc370) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:19 ambut i am a amateur etymologisy,
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:21 amprolly a numismatologist as well.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:28 amR.I.P. Percy Sledge, singer of “When A Man Loves A Woman”
R.I.P. Herb Trimpe (it rhymes with “shrimpy”), long-time Marvel Comics artist
Icy (98cea4) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:40 amnk, so, I’m not missing out on a classical education, but an education in the classics, including the wit and wisdom of Lisa Simpson…
Doh!
oh, I know daley, just friendly ribbing
MD in Philly (not in Philly at the moment) (deca84) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:43 amit’s like Spock said of Harold Robbins and Jacqueline Susann, the classics, lol,
RIP gunther grass
narciso (ee1f88) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:53 amIt would not be captious to characterize my regard for Jack Vance’s writings as esmeric.
nk (dbc370) — 4/14/2015 @ 9:59 amErr, that means I like them a lot.
nk (dbc370) — 4/14/2015 @ 10:01 amI think that idea is desireable and comforting – to think that our lives and the universe mean something more than what appears, but that should make you more skeptical about accepting this proposition. It is bordering on wishful thinking. Who wouldn’t want to live forever and see all their relatives again someday? I think we owe it to ourselves to be honest even if the alternative to this might not be appealing.
If everything is random, than nothing has inherent meaning. Human knowledge has no value.
Gil (febf10) — 4/14/2015 @ 11:29 amNoted, and seconded, Mr. nk.
Icy (d962d5) — 4/14/2015 @ 3:59 pmIndeed. Anyone who has not inhaled the elysian and vertiginous eloquence of the master story teller, Jack Vance, has missed out on some of the finest literature of the English language–or at least a language quite similar to English.
I was tempted to mimic the style of the real Cugel when I write under this pseudonym, but it’s an awful lot of work and you have to have a thesaurus open at all times.
Cugel (4d233e) — 4/14/2015 @ 5:21 pmGil, I’m afraid that you have missed my point entirely, and more afraid that your critics in this discussion are right and that you just aren’t capable of grasping a point that threatens your world view. But despite the warnings I’ll try one more time; you are obviously intelligent except for this mental block that keeps you from grasping anything that threatens your world view.
My point about Newton and the others was not that you should believe what they believe. Since they all believed different things, that would be kind of silly. My point was that if smart people who believe in logic and evidence and who know a lot about the arguments for and against God can end up believing in God, then maybe there actually is some logic and evidence behind the belief in God.
If you are rational thinker then you ought to find this argument disturbing. It is a real problem for your belief that there is no evidence for God, just like the problem that it is a sin not to believe in God is a problem for the Christian faith. If the truth is as blatantly obvious as you seem to think it is, how did so many great thinkers miss it?
Perhaps you have an idea that people suffer from some deep psychological malady that prevents them from seeing obvious truths in some cases. But if such a malady exists, how do you know that it does not infect you? If your own premise is that logical, careful, thoughtful people can be completely blind to the obvious, and in fact that the majority of such people in history were blind to the obvious, then no matter how logical, careful, and thoughtful you try to be, how do you know that you are not blind to the obvious?
I propose a simpler explanation–that you yourself are not understanding what people tell you when they explain the evidence for their belief.
Cugel (4d233e) — 4/14/2015 @ 5:53 pmHi Cugel, thanks for answering.
Pointing to a large population of smart people who believed something logical fallacy known as the appeal to widespread belief. Additionally, we do not however arrive at the truth of something by popular consensus, or by careful thought. We do so by rigorous observation and collecting data.
I do not think people suffer from any malady that prevents them from seeing obvious truths. Many people are taught about God from birth and told this is just the way it is. Others may be convinced by fancy for a wonderful idea. I am quite capable of understanding why people believe when they give me their reasons. Sadly, you have opted instead to claim I am intellectually inferior. Maybe I am, but that does not make your position any stronger or belief any truer.
Why dont you tell me your best reason for believing, and lets suss it out.
Gil (27c98f) — 4/14/2015 @ 11:56 pm