L.A. Times: Chris Christie’s Crazy Vaccine Comments Are Crazy — And Never Mind That His Position Is the Same As Obama’s, Because We Simply Won’t Tell You That
Like many of the mindless bleating sheep in Big Media today, the folks at the L.A. Times are busy creating a scandal out of absolutely nothing from Chris Christie’s comments today on vaccinations:
“There’s a debate going on right now in the United States, the measles outbreak that’s been caused in part by people not vaccinating their kids,” the reporter noted. “Do you think Americans should vaccinate their kids? Is the measles vaccine safe?” he asked.
Christie responded that he and his wife had gotten their four children vaccinated. “That’s the best expression I can give you of my opinion,” he said. “But I also understand that parents need to have some measure of choice in things as well, so that’s the balance that the government has to decide.
“It depends on what the vaccine is, what the disease type is and all the rest,” he said. “You have to have that balance in considering parental concerns because no parent cares about anything more than they care about protecting their own child’s health.
“Not every vaccine is created equal and not every disease type is as great a public health threat as others,” he added.
So far, this is straight news reporting of what sounds like a fairly sensible statement to me. If anything, it sounds a bit statist, allowing parents only “some measure of choice” while leaving the ultimate decision in the hands of government. Obama’s current position, by the way, is exactly the same: parents should be able to choose. Allahpundit notes that Christie’s position “is basically indistinguishable from the White House’s” and provides, as proof, this tweet containing Josh Earnest’s articulation of the president’s position — which is, and I quote: “[T]he president certainly believes that these kinds of decisions are decisions that should be made by parents…”
White House said on Jan 30 that vaccine science is "really clear" but the decision is up to parents pic.twitter.com/IkDDhbOENP
— Olivier Knox (@OKnox) February 2, 2015
He goes on to express Obama’s support for vaccinations. Yay for him. Chris Christie supports vaccinations too.
But the L.A. Times article quickly goes off the rails, portraying Christie’s position as diametrically opposed to Obama’s:
Democrats quickly went on the attack, with the Democratic National Committee issuing a statement accusing Christie of pandering to the “radical, conspiracy theory base” of the Republican Party.
The statement contrasted Christie’s remarks with those of Obama, who had answered a question about the issue in an interview over the weekend with NBC’s Savannah Guthrie.
“I understand that there are families that, in some cases, are concerned about the effect of vaccinations. The science is pretty indisputable. We’ve looked at this again and again,” Obama said.
“There is every reason to get vaccinated. There aren’t reasons to not get vaccinated,” he added. “You should get your kids vaccinated.”
Right . . . he said vaccinations are a good thing. Like Chris Christie did. What Obama didn’t say was that vaccinations should be mandatory. Nor has that ever been his position.
Here is the moronic summary of the Christie-related parts of the article, just under the headline:
But this article has nothing on the eternally vapid, credulous, intellectually dishonest sock-puppeting goober of a business columnist that this rag has in the form of Michael Hiltzik, who declares: No, Obama didn’t ‘pander to anti-vaxxers’ in 2008. If you were to conclude, based on Hiltzik’s history, that the truth is the complete opposite of his claim, you’d be right. You see, it emerged today (with a minimum of research) that Obama in 2008 repeatedly suggested that autism may be caused by vaccines.
Let’s start with a video of Obama’s comments cited by Hiltzik. I’m not going to give you the minute-long video he lazily cites. I will provide you a very fair and complete transcript of the quote with full context, starting here.
The final issue, uh, has to — you know, you mentioned autism — that’s an area, that’s an example where our investment in basic research and basic science has to drastically increase. Um, you know, I was mentioning earlier investments, infrastructure. One of the things that I left out was investment in basic science and technology. I mentioned it in terms of energy. But the same is true on, you know, the biotech and the genome sciences. Huge opportunities for us to figure out what are the sources of diseases. How can we prevent them, or at least intervene more quickly. And autism I think is a prime candidate, where we’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Nobody knows exactly why. There’s some people are suspicious that it’s connected to vaccines and triggers, uh, but — this person included. [Points at a person in the crowd.] The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it. Part of the reason I think it’s very important to research it is those vaccines are also preventing huge numbers of deaths among children and preventing debilitating illnesses like polio. And so we can’t afford to junk our vaccine system. We’ve got to figure out why is it that, uh, you know, this is happening so that, you know, we are starting to see a more normal, what was a normal, rate of autism.
Hiltzik says:
When Obama says “this person included,” he’s clearly shown pointing off to his right at the person who asked him about the autism-vaccine link, and not referring to himself.
Absolutely correct. He also says:
The full transcript of his remarks also suggests that the science he says is “inconclusive” is the science of what causes autism–not the purported link to any vaccine.
That conclusion is as questionable as Hiltzik’s judgment when he says: “Kudos to Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs for setting the record straight.” Any column that contains the words “Kudos to Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs” is automatically suspect — as is any column that has a byline belonging to Michael Hiltzik.
And the little “Sharelines” summary at the beginning of the column says:
Video shows that Obama contradicted the autism-vaccine link 2008, not endorsed it.
Horseshit. I just gave you a completely fair quote in full context, and immediately on the heels of a description of a “skyrocketing autism rate” is a reference to suspicions “that it’s connected to vaccines and triggers” followed equally immediately by a statement that “[t]he science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it.”
Jake Tapper on Twitter provides even more context. Here is what candidate Obama said about a possible link between autism and vaccines in 2008, in response to a questionnaire:
Do you think vaccines should be investigated as a possible cause of autism?
I believe that the next president must restore confidence and open communication with the American people. This includes environmental policies and government funded research. An Obama administration will go where the science and the facts lead us, whether it is about climate change or toxic heavy metals in our environment.
What will you do to protect Americans, especially young children and pregnant women, from exposure to mercury through vaccines?
I support the removal of thimerosal from all vaccines and work to ensure that Americans have access to vaccines that are mercury free.
Dave Weigel says that the comment “skates closer to the autism/vaccine theory than Christie’s” — which kind of makes you wonder (not really) why Big Media is trying to make a Thing out of Christie’s comments — but Weigel also notes that the study that allegedly smashed the link between autism and vaccines to smithereens post-dated Obama’s comments.
By the way, it’s very fashionable these days to declare the science to be settled and denounce as lunatics anyone who raises questions about these issues. Forgive me, but I am not only modest about the limits of my knowledge, but I am also skeptical about those who are not modest about the limits of theirs. And I get nervous when government wants to take away people’s freedom based on their supposed supreme knowledge. My children are vaccinated, and their parents’ collective judgment was that this was the best course of action for them. But do I believe in the infallibility of the latest scientific study, or of our central government? No. I do not.
Time to DENOUNCE PATTERICO!!!
Patterico (9c670f) — 2/2/2015 @ 10:40 pmThat’s just ding-y !
Alastor (2e7f9f) — 2/2/2015 @ 10:47 pmThe difference in Rand Paul’s comments is that Rand doesn’t believe people should be forced to wear seatbelts, or helmets or get vaccinations or shower often. He may think some of them idiots, and not sit near others, but he just doesn’t believe in FORCE.
As far as him saying that he doesn’t think that kids should get a lot of vaccines at once, that’s not unreasonable — they aren’t all tested together and there could be some interactions. Doctors see bad drug interactions all the time.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/3/2015 @ 12:29 amNotice how no one mentions the possibility that this outbreak was started by
exposure to some of the recent illegal children that Obama with the aid of DHS
spirited away to locales all over the country.
Surely that’s a more likely pool of unvaccinated individuals of the correct age
and the most recent exposure.
This along with the paralyzing disease epidemic that has also suddenly appeared
should be at least grounds for investigation.
But that won’t happen with the Government Press or the Dept. Of Injustice.
jakee308 (f0aa61) — 2/3/2015 @ 12:33 amparental choice on vaccinations is Christie’s path to the nomination for sure
flog it fat boy
happyfeet (831175) — 2/3/2015 @ 2:22 amfat boy is a waste of America’s time.
mg (31009b) — 2/3/2015 @ 3:17 amWise up nitwits.
Vaccine are not 100% safe, though they approach 100%. The non-vaccinators rely on other people having their children vaccinated, and that would actually work, if unvaccinated people came into contact with only vaccinated people, but that isn’t real life.
In Pakistan, the Taliban have declared polio vaccinations the work of the devil, and, surprise, surprise, polio has made a comeback in Pakistan.
The best solution I have heard so far is to state that unvaccinated children should not be allowed to attend public schools, and private schools ought to have the same option to exclude them. That forces parents who do not want heir children vaccinated to home school, which is a heck of a burden for most of them.
The same option ought to be available to employers: if an applicant has never been vaccinated against common diseases, an employer should have the right to simply drop him from consideration.
I’ve known a couple of people who were opposed to vaccinations, and, not very surprisingly, they were also 9/11 Truthers and anti-Semites. (You did know that Jonas Salk, who developed the first polio vaccine, was a Jooooo, didn’t you?) Vaccines are actually a government plot, you know!
The Dana who isn't a doctor (f6a568) — 2/3/2015 @ 3:22 amyes yes the unvaccinated weirdos need to be separated from normal children
this way they can hang out with each other and pick each other’s scabs while the normal children read books about dinosaurs and study about the math
happyfeet (831175) — 2/3/2015 @ 4:20 amEveryone loves what you guys tend to be up too. This type of clever work and reporting!
do choi tinh duc la gi (6207d0) — 2/3/2015 @ 4:43 amKeep up the good works guys I’ve incorporated you guys to blogroll.
“There’s some people are suspicious that it’s connected to…”
jb (5a2bf8) — 2/3/2015 @ 4:55 amSee… “he” doesn’t hold the position — others do.
Obama is smart and devious in this way, having corrected his speech patterns since
saying “his” energy polices would skyrocket energy costs.
Same with his long speech about getting involved in Iraq, or Benghazi being an
act of terrorism, etc.
This is a great post, Patterico.
The topic is so frustrating, because it isn’t really about vaccines.
It’s about Battlespace Preparation for 2016 by the MSM.
Simon Jester (a88a04) — 2/3/2015 @ 4:56 amMy children are immune-compromised and, pursuant to CDC guidelines, they can’t be vaccinated. To protect them from these diseases, we have to depend on the herd immunity that comes from everyone else being vaccinated. Thus, this subject is of great interest and importance to me. It is also very frustrating because there is another option — titer testing. It’s the method doctors have used for years to help my family know which diseases we need to worry about.
Adults and parents concerned about vaccines can do a blood test, called a titer test, that measures antibodies to specific diseases including, measles, mumps, varicella, and others. If you have sufficient antibodies then you likely don’t need to be vaccinated. If you don’t, then you should seriously consider the vaccine because you are at risk for getting the disease.
Many colleges already accept proof of antibodies through titer testing for entering students in lieu of proof of vaccination. We also know vaccines last longer for some people than for others, and some of these outbreaks involve vaccinated populations. Thus, titer testing can help determine whether and when people need boosters.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 5:30 am== The non-vaccinators rely on other people having their children vaccinated, and that would actually work, if unvaccinated people came into contact with only vaccinated people, but that isn’t real life.==
As Jakee308 said above, everybody with a brain knows damned well that this current outbreak is in large part directly related to the influx of poor unaccompanied immigrant children and young adults this past summer. Of course these poor children were never vaccinated in their home countries. Was any attempt made to vaccinate them in the welcoming centers before they were bused out and relocated to locations all over the country and started attending schools in the fall? Perhaps some were. But I have seen nothing that says they were. The so-called “Disneyland” contagion may be the result of well-off foreign travelers bringing in measles that transferred to unvaccinated American children or babies too young to be vaccinated in the theme park, but it could also be mostly BS manufactured to blame something, anything but the real cause of the current outbreak.
The media’s focus on Christie and Rand Paul statements on vaccinations are squirrels.
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 5:41 amDRJ, that is a solution for people with issues, right there. Thanks for sharing. It’s not a “I only like natural things” style of thinking.
Elissa, these aren’t squirrels. It’s all about the MSM attacking political candidates in advance of 2016. I believe that progressive politics enters into most everything they publish nowadays.
The best kind of propaganda has truth mixed into it.
Simon Jester (38bd3a) — 2/3/2015 @ 5:56 am==It’s about Battlespace Preparation for 2016 by the MSM.==
You were saying, Simon—
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/chris-christie-remarks-show-vaccines-potency-in-political-debate/2015/02/02/f1c49a6e-aaff-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de_story.html
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 5:58 amI mean, you should read all my academic friends’ comments about Christie and Paul. Yet they get furious when anyone diffidently suggests that President Boyfriend says things little different.
It’s all cheerleading.
By the way, my academic friends are flipping out I posted the recently Atlantic article showing that the super snooty progressives in LA have low vaccination rates.
http://news.sciencemag.org/2011/01/why-prius-driving-composting-set-fears-vaccines?ref=hp
Wow, did they respond poorly. But the author interviewed is a progressive hero, so their heads are exploding.
Teh Narrative™ is strong.
I so hate all the mudslinging. But that is what it is.
Simon Jester (38bd3a) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:00 amElissa, I cannot wait for a townhall when various politicians answer questions about vaccines.
Urk.
Simon Jester (38bd3a) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:01 amSimon in my opinion it’s both. The squirrel part is to keep the talk away from the catastrophe of the immigrant children bringing in disease, and the other part is obviously trying to muddy any and all potential GOP candidates. It’s a twofer.
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:02 amHi elissa:
You wrote:
I will bet you cash money the Clerisy Set will sacrifice Whole Foods progressives before admitting illegal immigrants fanned the flames of this.
Simon Jester (38bd3a) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:03 amHa! We think alike, elissa.
Simon Jester (38bd3a) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:03 amany GOP candidate what gets muddied by a simple straightforward issue like protecting kids deserves what he gets
Rand Paul and the piggy piggy jerseytrash loser have disqualified themselves
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:10 amDuh and simple: They still are operating under the notion that Christie is some serious GOP candidate for PotUS in 2016, so they’re attempting to make him out as a fringe nutcase however possible.
That pretty much EVERYONE on the Right has long since moved on from him and written him off after a brief attention to him in 2008 for stuff he’d done earlier than that (as a result of things he’s done subsequently) is lost on their pointy widdle heads.
Stop asking.
Let them do it.
It takes time away from their capacity to attack more legitimate candidates.
And that’s a GOOD thing….
IGotBupkis, "Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses." (225d0d) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:10 amSo which of these two fathers’ statements “disqualified” them, happyfeet? Did you read DRJ’s comment above by any chance?
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:20 amwhat disqualified him is that he’s equivocating and navel gazing in the middle of a measles epidemic
there is one message that is appropriate and that is to tell these loser parents to stop endangering their kids and other people’s kids and get them vaccinated
this is not hard stuff at all
brb I promised Mr. Huckabee I’d hold Beyoncé down while he beats the devil out of her with a willow branch
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:23 amSo you did not read DRJ’s comment.
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:24 amyes i did read her comment
these anti-vaxxer scum are putting kids like DRJ’s in very real danger
and Mr. Christie is not helping
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:26 am==It takes time away from their capacity to attack more legitimate candidates.==
Oh, don’t you worry, bupkis. They’ll have plenty of time and energy and money (capacity) to attack all the GOP candidates. Their bias against the GOP in general and their hypocrisy in vetting individual politicians based on whether they have an R or D after their name has to be fought at every corner. That’s pretty much the point of Patterico’s thread here I think.
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:32 amhere are oodles of disgusting pictures of measles legions and scars
i think it would be helpful if these loopy GOP candidates were to click on this link and think for a half second or two before maundering on about how vaccinations are kind of like not all the same and we have to find a balance and sometimes you might want to stagger them out or, you know, it kinda depends on the disease and I heard about this one kid – really bright kids – who got a vaccination and was never the same after – got him a real bad case of the simples – it was on facebook
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:36 amreally bright *kid* i mean
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:38 amI like the “equivocating” position — the government proposes, the parent disposes. Because sooner or later some bright boy is going to come up with the idea of progesterone suppressants in grade-schoolers to make them all behave like sugar and spice and curb the epidemic of playground violence. And, yes, when my daughter was in the belly, we worried about other people’s little brats running around with all sorts of rubellas and variolas, so I’m not unsympathetic to the common good argument either.
nk (dbc370) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:51 amMy family has had to talk to many doctors about these diseases and vaccines, especially when the titer tests showed my kids didn’t have immunity to a specific disease and we had to decide how to handle it. I think Rand Paul is right to space out vaccines, and my anecdotal experience with pediatricians and other doctors is that many of them space out their own kids’ vaccines.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:51 amGood point, nk.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:53 amoops also I meant *lesions*
i’m a little grumpy and under-caffeinated this morning cause we’re out of truvia
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:55 ami don’t care if people space out vaccines but when you’re a candidate for president and someone asks you about vaccines you say well look there’s an epidemic underway and very kid needs to get shots for measles and whooping cough especially right now
that’s all you have to say
spacing out vaccinations is a question a parent can talk about with their kid’s doctor – it’s not a discussion we need to have with some p.o.s. republican politician
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:57 am*every* kid i mean
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:57 amlife is hard enough without having disfiguring scars on your face
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:58 amBecause Americans are too stupid to discuss things like this, hf?
This is an example of why I’m afraid of the government and net neutrality. Too many smart people opt for censorship when they get frustrated with other people.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:00 amwhere is there censorship?
if Rand Paul wants to run a campaign where he discusses the pros and cons of getting your kid vaccinated more power to him
Michelle Bachmann can be his opening act
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:04 am“It’s not a discussion we need to have” sounds like you don’t want people to talk about this.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:06 amHeaven forbid we discuss the origin of these current outbreaks.
JD (86a5eb) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:07 amspacing out vaccinations is a question a parent can talk about with their kid’s doctor – it’s not a discussion we need to have with
some p.o.s. republicanany politicianhappyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 6:57 am
FIFY!
felipe (b5e0f4) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:09 ampeople can talk about this all they want but candidates for the presidency would do themselves a solid if they focused on elaborating on their plans to failmerica’s headlong slide into fascism and economic decline i think
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:11 amyou are correct Mr. felipe
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:11 amHow many of the people most upset about vaccinations not being treated like the Holy Grail also turn a blind eye (or get so namby-pamby) when it comes to the amount of diseases entering the US from, er, uh, the “undocumented”?
Mark (c160ec) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:14 amMark, over on Twitter, Patterico asked Jake Tapper exactly that. Tapper is classy. But heads exploded.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:20 amInteractive map of vaccine denial in Los Angeles:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/los-angeles-vaccination-rates/
Anyone want to guess where the virus hotbeds are without looking?
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:37 amMark,
The vaccination rate in Central America is about 95%. Poor people take what medicine they can get and there is a LOT of money spent on vaccinating the third world’s children.
The vaccination rates in Santa Monica and Beverly Hills are rather less.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:39 amData tables on world immunization rates:
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.IMM.MEAS/countries
Kevin M (25bbee) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:42 amSo the limousine liberals on LA’s westside are helping spread disease throughout society, first by favoring politicians who become all gushy over masses of the “undocumented” streaming through the border, and then, to help further the trends, by treating one facet of their own household as sort of a variation of the developing or Third World.
Wonderful.
BTW, I was in line at the grocery store yesterday watching a family (parents and four kids) rack up a huge food bill of over $400.00. Quite impressive, I thought to myself. I didn’t want to buy into negative stereotypes about the nature of those customers (they weren’t fluent in English) and how they’d pay their receipt. Then I peered over at the register’s readout and noticed over $300.00 of their bill was from “SNAP.” It then hit me why there wasn’t too much junk food in their shopping cart, which I at first thought was a sign of commendable self-restraint on their part.
Oh, well.
But maybe Michelle Obama’s “just say no” regimen is having an effect anyway.
Mark (c160ec) — 2/3/2015 @ 7:51 am4. jakee308 (f0aa61) — 2/3/2015 @ 12:33 am
That’s not too likely, because they’ve been here for some time, and all of those in custody would have been treated fo measles or vaccinated. They shouldn’t be suspected, because there’s no reason to imagine that.
No, it’s not. I don’t know where this idea comes from. Did you hear it some place?
It’s been a half a year or so since they came; measles doesn’t last that long; anyone in a custody situation would have been treated for measles or vaccinated; and they are not that likely to visit Disneyland. As you said, they are all over the country. Not too many living in a place where a trip to Disneyland is a cheap, short, trip.
And to begin with, there’s probably a higher rate of non-vaccination in parts of California, and certainly many more unvaccinated children, and, as I just noted above, any measles from the summer would be long gone.
Diseases don’t care where somebody is a resident, and they do not avoid infecting short term visitors to a country – in fact they’re more likely to get infected, since that would be their first chance of exposure.
Nor do diseases avoid people with visas, and confine themselves solely to people who cross a border illegally.
Nor does the visa process or the border check screen for measles in any way, nor could it. (Outside of giving everyone a blood test or something, and no quick simple test with results in five minutes, either for measles or antibodies to it, is on the market, even if maybe Elizabeth Holmes could come out with one in a week and the FDA agreed it could be used. Otherwise they could do this every day in schools, or before boarding a school bus.)
What in fact makes sense is that it is related to people who visited Disneyland who had not long before – like two weeks or so – been abroad – and nobody is trying to prevent or limit travel back and forth to countries where measles is endemic.
And you know, people who visit Disneyland are somewhat more likely than average to have travelled to (or come from) other places far away from Disneyland shortly before.
This is either foreign visitors on tourist visas or Americans (probably from California, since Disneyland is located in California and people from California are more likely to visit Disneyand, and also more likely not to vaccinate their children) who had recently been abroad – maybe in some place like Belguim. Maybe it started with just one case.
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:00 amHere is some data
kishnevi (a5d1b9) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:01 amhttp://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/globalsummary/timeseries/tscoveragemcv.html
The continent to worry about is Africa.
Also worse than Central America are Denmark, France, Peru, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Bolivia, India, Papua New Guinea, Syria, and Iraq. Some places in Central America actually have higher rates than the USA. Mexico is only slightly worse than the USA.
The countries with lower rates are much more connected to Florida than Texas or California. Meaning Narciso and I have more to worry about than most of you.
I see Kevin posted a similar link while I was digging through WHO
kishnevi (294553) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:03 amSimon Jester (38bd3a) — 2/3/2015 @ 5:56 am
The local radio “news channel” has a sound bite of some medical expert saying that Christie “needs to stop listening to the Tea Party” and “understand there is something called scientific consensus”.
Potential candidates need to learn to stay on point and answer questions by saying nothing, like some dems are very good at.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:15 amObama in 2008:
By “triggers” Obama was referring to the idea that a vaccine could trigger autism, although it was not the cause.
This would be similar to the way in which infections (and probably vaccines) can trigger juvenile diabetes, although the actual cause may be years in the past. (when cow’s milk was taken before the age of 6 month, which can prime the immune system in a bad way. But some people may try to give an argument about this.)
It should be undeniable that:
A) Autism is an auto-immune disease. (it is sort of unacknowledged, but it is.)
B) Something that stimulates the immune system may trigger an auto-immune disease in genetically susceptible individuals who have been primed for it by:
a) an infectious disease thay were exposed to (that has become more common recently)
b) some other vaccine than the one that was given shortly before the autism appeared.
c) something in food
OR
d) an environmental contaminant (Obama, here, I think was favoring – Boo! – heavy metals, although I would think that’s pretty unlikely, since it’s not organic.)
C) In any case, something is different in the environment between the United States now, and the United States decades ago, or between the United States and other countries where the incidence of autism is much lower.
D) And that that is probably responsible for the increase in autism.
That factor would be most likely be either a disease, or a vaccine to a disease, or a component or contaminent of food, and it would only affect people with the right, or wrong, HLAs. And probably trial lawyers could not make money off of it.
Obama:
It is also probable that Obama has nor done a single thing about funding research into what might correlate with autism. Or if he did, it was something that was going to happen anyway, and he’s paid no attention to it.
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:25 amThe Mississippi Tea Party is now showing support for a vaccine choice bill (HB 130) which is being discussed at the state legislature. In Mississippi, children have to be vaccinated before attending school unless they are exempt for medical reasons. If passed, the vaccine choice bill would change that, allowing for philosophical exemptions.
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:29 amI can’t agree with that, MD. This isn’t a deposition in a lawsuit, where you say as little as possible so you don’t incriminate yourself. It’s a debate for the hearts and minds of the voters.
Conservatives will lose every political argument if we let Democrats choose the agenda. Let’s talk about the issues, including issues like this that are nuanced. The audience is parents who are worried about vaccines, and I think they will appreciate a sincere, informed discussion. And, yes, the audience is also liberals who will jeer at whatever conservative politicians say, but the answer isn’t to say less so there’s less to jeer at.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:31 amAny particular school of philosophy? Determinists, existentialists, solipsists, utilitarians, libertarians would all be covered?
nk (dbc370) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:33 ammostly objectivism i guess
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:34 amHmm. And how many Mississippians are there who don’t think that Phil O’Sophy is the Irishman who just moved into the trailer park?
nk (dbc370) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:40 amLow vaccine rates track with Whole Foods market locations… because Science!
http://news.sciencemag.org/2011/01/why-prius-driving-composting-set-fears-vaccines?ref=hp
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:40 amseven?
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:41 amTexas has allowed vaccine choice since 2010, including an exemption for philosophical or religious reasons. Nevertheless, its vaccination rate for children entering school (kindergarten) is over 97%, which is in the top 5 in the country. It’s possible to have information and choice.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:43 amLike I implied in the other thread, Haiku, the odds are that the people who got it are the people who brung it. And like Patterico said there, it’s not poor people who go to Disneyland.
nk (dbc370) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:44 amObama’s War on Vaccines For Teh Underinsured!
http://fortune.com/2015/02/02/obamas-budget-cuts-50-million-from-a-vaccine-program-for-the-underinsured/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:46 amhttp://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-budget-cuts-50-million-national-vaccine-program/story?id=28689193
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:48 ami say cut it
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:49 amMississippi’s vaccine rate for kindergarten students is greater than 99.7%, which is first in the nation. I think it’s been first for several years.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:51 amyou’d be surprised how many food stampers go to Disneyland
local food stampers to be sure
they get these season passes with lots of blackout dates somehow
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:51 am#57… probably about as many as there are Chicagoans who believe in a Money Tree.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:54 amWhat do you know? The trigger theory of autism, according to one scientific study at least, is correct:
https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/autism-epidemic-linked-to-epidemic-of-vaccine-induced-diabetes-wall-street-journal/
Now the big problem is: what’s the actual cause? (in the case of juvenile diabetes, it’s being fed baby formula that contains cow’s milk before reaching the age of 6 months.)
Also, can avoiding vaccines and infections prevent either autism or juvenile diabetes, or is it too late if it is going to happen, and nothing would be of any help, and you can at most just delay its onset?
Dr. Claussen doesn’t seem to suppose a prior cause, but just immune system overload, and I don’t know that he takes into consideration the all important point that this applies only to genetically susceptible individuals! And he could find that out, if he did more than library research.)
Probably his research is being financed by some law firms. (they are not interested in the truth, but only in dinding the type of cause with which they may make money.)
Here is a link to a page with links to his papers:
http://www.vaccines.net/newpage11.htm
This is the one that finds some similarities to the spread of juvenile diabetes:
http://www.vaccines.net/autism.pdf
They could actually have widely different causes, but in the places and times one goes up the other ones tends to too.
Of course, of course, of course.
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:54 amhttp://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=25&pt=1&ch=97&rl=62
To claim an exclusion for reasons of conscience, including a religious belief, a signed affidavit must be presented by the child’s parent or legal guardian, stating that the child’s parent or legal guardian declines vaccinations for reasons of conscience, including because of the person’s religious beliefs. The affidavit will be valid for a two-year period. The child, who has not received the required immunizations for reasons of conscience, including religious beliefs, may be excluded from school in times of emergency or epidemic declared by the commissioner of public health.
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:56 amDRJ, that’s an interesting statistic I hadn’t seen!
I wonder, though, if it’s the result of Texans being better informed. I suspect it’s more explainable simply as a result of Texans’ conservative inertia: Comprehensive vaccination has been not only the norm, but the uncontroversial norm for more than a half-century (as you & I are old enough to recall personally).
The vaccination rates in California used to be about what Texas’ was, I’d wager, and was over most of that same period.
I don’t think it’s that Texans are better educated and more rational. I think it’s that Californians are more susceptible to moonbat nonsense and junk science and Jenny McCarthy-as-a-credible-medical-expert.
That speculated, however, I absolutely agree that education is vital here.
And despite my basic small-L libertarian leanings, I put this sort of biologically-based public health issue in a different category than most government regulations. Requiring vaccinations is not at all the same thing as banning Big Gulps. Biology, irrespective of politics, dictates that for public health measures to be effective, they must be universal. One person in a town of 10,000 may genuinely and truly believe, to the depths of her Playboy-bunny soul, that cholera is caused by wicked angels, not microbes; and the First Amendment will let her spout that view, open a temple to it, etc. But we can’t let our reverence for civil liberties and individual choice trump everything else, and we can’t let that person poop in the town well.
If Texas’ rates for these preventable diseases began to rise, I’d support mandatory vaccinations here.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:56 amIn July 2014, a doctor with the AAPS (Association of American Physicians and Surgeons) warned about diseases being brought in by illegal immigrants:
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:58 amTexas Megachurch At Center Of Measles Outbreak
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:00 am“Half-Truth Hiltzik” is simply shilling for his political favorites, as he always does. Every politician pandered a bit to anti-vaxxers when the “autism link to mercury” cropped up in media. Obama did not wave away concerns of the anti-vaxers, and the transcript couldn’t be more clear. Hiltzik helps NYT command a premium over the LAT in LAT’s own city. Any respectable paper would have given him his papers years ago. In 2016, with Hiltzik’s help, LAT readers will learn about the cost of Ann Romney’s blouse, and the GOP candidate for governor’s maid, etc., while ignoring the fleeing businesses, increasing cost of California’s green energy schemes, and anything else important.
Harcourt Fenton Mudd (5e0a82) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:02 amBeldar,
Inertia is possible, as is the possibility that many Texans don’t know they can opt out of vaccinating their child. But the school districts notify parents of the vaccine requirements and the exemption rights — see, for example, this link to the Katy ISD information sheet that I think is representative. I believe pediatricians’ offices provide similar material. Granted, I doubt health care providers or schools encourage exemptions but the info is there for parents to see and decide for themselves.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:04 amThere are people that say that people should not travel long disatnces by car but rather use airplanes, because that is safer.
The same logic would argue against measles vaccination as long as the number of cases, and the probability of spread, is low.
I read a letter to the Wall Street Journal that said there is something like a 1 in 3,000 chance of something serious (death?) in the case of vaccination, and 1 in 100 chance of dying from measles.
That would mean, that if the chances of being exposed to measles was less than 1 in 30, mathematically it was less risky NOT to get vaccinated.
A particular statistic cited here is:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/limit-vaccination-exemptions-for-better-public-health-letters-to-the-editor-1422664331
That in the year 2000, there were only 86 reported cases of measles in the United States, and 0 deaths, but there were twelve (12) deaths due to measkes vaccinations (and 280 cases of serious side effects.)
It is simply undeniable, that, as herd immunity grows, and the incidence of measles drops, the relative danger of the vaccine and of measles reverses itself, and changes to the point where the vaccine is more dangerous, mathematically, than the risk of not being vaccinated.
Now that can’t be denied. Any debate simply has to take account of this mathemathical fact.
This is in fact the reason that smallpox vaccination was stopped in the United States well before smallpox became extinct in the world. There was more danger form the vaccine than from the disease, and the same is actually true of polio, although vaccination in the United states has not been stopped, maybe because the probably of getting exposed to it simply isn’t calculable.
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:04 amin my experience growing up there my sense was that a lot of people in Texas choose to vaccinate their kids cause they don’t want them getting sick
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:10 amBeldar,
If a mandatory system becomes necessary because of the threat of disease, then I would support mandatory titer testing. It accomplishes the goal with far greater accuracy, because then we’d know with certainty who is a danger. Getting a vaccine isn’t a panacea because its coverage declines at an uncertain rate, e.g., outbreaks of whooping cough among the vaccinated occurs in many locations because immunity fades at different rates. It’s possible the same is true of this measles outbreak.
Of course, titer testing is currently expensive but the cost would come down because of competition, if people ask for it. And people can certainly choose the vaccine if they don’t want to go through testing. But I think it’s an option whose time has come.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:12 amThe Texas church was infected by someone who traveled outside the country and brought measles back. Twelve of the 21 people infected weren’t vaccinated. They objected to vaccines, but sponsored a vaccine event after the outbreak. I bet they would have accepted titer testing, too.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:16 amAlcee hastings thinks your state is crazy, Beldar and DRJ. And apparently he was talking about the whole state not just Sheila Jackson Lee.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/02/florida-democrat-hastings-calls-texas-crazy-refuses-to-apologize-video/
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 9:17 amElissa, thanks for that link and the laugh it provoked! As long as disgraced, impeached, felonious, ridiculous Alcee Hastings represents the Democrats in Congress, we’ll know the Democratic Party is quite literally shameless. The GOP has its share of stinkers, but none quite so overripe and still-prominent. I can think of few people I’d rather have call me and the people of my home state “crazy.”
DRJ, I wasn’t familiar with titer testing, and I thank you for acquainting me with it. Certainly there should be for-cause exceptions even if vaccinations are mandatory, and those with demonstrable medical risks ought be considered separately.
Going all the way back to Jenner, we’ve known that vaccinations involve risks. Civilized societies made the judgment that those risks — and the resulting costs that would be borne by the relatively few individuals and families where the risks materialized into harm, even death — were more than justified by the benefits to society. I still hold to that judgment; science has given no good reason to overturn it; and the anti-vaxxers either never understood it or they’re too selfish to care. But to the extent medical and scientific advances enable us to continue minimizing those risks, or to the extent that they create new paths to avoid them, we’ll improve the bargain for society as a whole, and lessen the hardships to those people — relatively few, but genuinely important — negatively affected by the public health laws.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/3/2015 @ 10:10 amRush Limbaugh apparently is echoing (I heard a fragment awhile ago) the blame the illegal immigrant children meme. In spite of his protestations to the contrary that I heard some time ago, he must be “phoning it in.”
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 10:16 amWhat might make sense, is adjusting the age of vaccination to the prevalence of the disease, because I suspect the incidence of adverse effects goes down the older somebody is when vaccinated.
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 10:18 amDRJ (a83b8b) — 2/3/2015 @ 8:31 am
I don’t have time to read through everything closely.
I’m not sure how much we disagree or are looking at things from a different angle.
I guess I see feeling the need to respond to every question as a way we let “them” set the agenda. They can ask anything from a slant and set a no-win trap all day long if they can figure out a way to do it.
I’m just saying that we choose which battles to fight ourselves, and not get sucked into every flooded rabbit hole that leads to a trap.
None of us are Jesus, but we should learn from His example. He often refused to answer a question in the way it was posed, but found a way to spring the trap on the would-be trappers.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 2/3/2015 @ 10:18 amIf omebody has a positive titer, doesn’t that mean they were exposed to the disease, but had a subclinical case?
And, in effect, got vaccinated?
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 10:18 amYou know, George Washington had to argue with anti-vaxxers at Valley Forge in 1778. Continental Army soldiers and their kin weren’t worried about autism, but they did resist pretty hard, almost to the point of mutiny, against the idea that they ought voluntarily submit to deliberate infection. It’s a good thing Washington put his foot down, or we might still be subjects of the British Empire.
Beldar (fa637a) — 2/3/2015 @ 10:26 amI think you’re both right. Did I hear you ask why? Because “Merry Christmas”.
nk (dbc370) — 2/3/2015 @ 10:30 amHigh vaccination rates are associated with pick-up trucks and concealed handgun licenses. In places like Marin county or Mill Valley (kali) Prius driving parents won’t vaccinated their kids for the same reason they won’t feed their kids non-organically grown (or worse, shudder, genetically modified) produce.
Here’s an interesting tidbit:
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/02/hillary-clinton-showed-more-sympathy-for-anti-vaccination-views-than-christie-did.php
Naturally, moving forward, we can expect the LHMFM to be more rabid over the question of which GOP candidate was a bigger bully 40 years ago in H.S. than to examine Hillary!’s views on the link between vaccines and autism in 2008.
Steve57 (8d38a0) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:06 ammeanwhile, the LA Slimes continues it’s march towards Bankruptcy court…
we got a flyer in the mail the other day, offering Thursdays & Saturdays only, for a year, for $9.88. there is also an option for daily delivery at $3.99/week. you can even pay by credit card, writing your account number on the back of the return post card, for all the world to see. 😎
of course, from past experience, the illegal alien who delivers the news papers in our area is unable to grasp the concept of non-daily delivery, as previously proven by our failure to get one of these offers.
HRH signed up, but we never got the paper: the delivery office decided the solution was to give us the paper every day, but only bill us for what we signed up for. the billing people, OTOH, concluded that, since we were getting the paper every day, we obviously should pay the higher price.
Resident Evil went ballistic and canceled. i was heartbroken. i think i’ll create a non-existent local address, X the “Bill Me” box and drop this postage pre-paid card in the mail… i just need a name to use.
any volunteers here?
redc1c4 (cf3b04) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:09 amIf you read the post at the link you’ll discover that the WaPo is reporting that in 2009 Christie met with parents concerned about a link between vaccines and autism and actually listened to them. He later said parents should be more involved in vaccination questions that effected their children. Then two years later at a townhall meeting and someone gave him on the book subject of vaccines and autism. He dared to accept it. Even worse, he later called the author to ask a question.
The luddite.
The WaPo wants you to know its layers and layers of editors then shook their magic 8 balls and determined that anti-science Chris Christie secretly holds the same position Hillary! came out and said she held in 2008.
In a statement they’ll never tell you about.
Steve57 (8d38a0) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:14 amthe link between vaccines & autism is BS.
redc1c4 (cf3b04) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:18 amThe science is clear tweets grandma Hillary:
http://twitchy.com/2015/02/02/the-science-is-clear-grandmother-hillary-clinton-breaks-with-2008-hillary-clinton-on-vaccines/
elissa (b37a78) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:19 amuse Adrian Zmed Mr. red he lives kinda over by you i think and he’s super cool and needs to know all about movie premieres and Chris Christie’s whimsical views on vaccinating, or not vaccinating, against deadly and disfiguring diseases like typhus and pellagra and meezuls plus he can use the coupons
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:19 amObama (and Hillary Clinton) could claim that more has been learned since 2008 – but just what?
You would think, if so, somebody would be able to point to something.
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:23 am“Keep your damned government out of my body,” say the abortion enthusiasts who now turn around and want the government inside your kids body.
Steve57 (8d38a0) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:25 amgetting vaccinated is like having superpowers
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:28 amEvery time anybody brings up the vaccine issue with a GOP candidate they need to turn the question to Prom Queen’s border collapse. You can bring up vaccination rates all you want. The fact is we don’t know who is coming across the border and what diseases they have. Then we can put Border Patrol agents who have actually caught some of those diseases front and center and they can tell the world about how Preezy Mean Girl threatened them (and health care workers at facilities dealing with illegals) with all sorts of dire consequences if they dared talk about the potential health crisis Obumble was letting into the country for political purposes.
I bet the LHMFM will shut up about vaccinations.
Steve57 (8d38a0) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:31 amIt is simply undeniable, that, as herd immunity grows, and the incidence of measles drops, the relative danger of the vaccine and of measles reverses itself, and changes to the point where the vaccine is more dangerous, mathematically, than the risk of not being vaccinated.
Now that can’t be denied. Any debate simply has to take account of this mathemathical fact.
Sammy – I am not following your undeniable logic. Can you please try to explain more slowly?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:40 am@96, maybes so, but not every vaccine is of vital national interest. Does your kid really need a flu shot before the school lets them in?
http://pix11.com/2014/12/17/deadline-looms-for-mandatory-flu-vaccine-for-nyc-students/
It’s only 25% effective. Howzabout this? If your kid gets the flu, keep the tyke home. Whether or not your kid got the seasonal flu vaccine.
Steve57 (8d38a0) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:41 amas a public policy method, more vaccinations seems better than less, but if Columbia and Wellesley grads are confused about it, well the rest of us must be confuzzled,
narciso (ee1f88) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:42 amelissa @93, that’s what I figured would happen. As one of the tweets said, at least she came around to the right position now. Which will end the whole discussion r.e. Hillary!
The LHMFM will then want to move on. To endlessly rehashing whether Christie closed a bridge.
But Benghazi is old news.
And one of Jeb Bush’s friends says he smoked pot but didn’t sell it back when he was in H.S. in the late sixties. But that’s just one witness. It certainly doesn’t close the issue. That’s new and hot! That needs to be investigated.
Steve57 (8d38a0) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:50 amYes Kate Zernike is on with the harpoon, with the shocking insight, that politicians accept free stuff from campaign contributors, news at 11,
narciso (ee1f88) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:55 amhonestly they are outraged:
http://rightwingnews.com/media-bias/ny-times-concerned-chris-christies-luxury-travel/
narciso (ee1f88) — 2/3/2015 @ 12:01 pmChristie is pretty sleazy actually with his lil piggy snout all up in Sheldon’s trough
corpulent gold-digging leg-humpers are the worst
happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 12:29 pmI was born in 1950, was vaccinated against anything they had vaccinations for back then. I’ve never seen a case of polio, smallpox, diptheria, whooping cough, etc and no one I know ever came down with them. Well, because of science. Many of the anti-vaccine crowd are insisting that bad climate change is occurring and its my fault; yet they believe in science?
Angelo (a53389) — 2/3/2015 @ 12:30 pmSheldon’s ok, now Jerry Jones it got silly,
narciso (ee1f88) — 2/3/2015 @ 12:31 pm97. happyfeet (a037ad) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:28 am
And the HIV-AIDS virus is like gold kryptonite – you lose your super powers.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 2/3/2015 @ 1:17 pmAngelo, I’ve been vaccinated for everything from Anthrax to Yellow Fever, so you can’t really call me anti-vaccine.
On the other hand I don’t think Christie’s comments are in any way outrageous, if you scroll up and read what he actually said, as much as the LHMFM is trying to make them out to be.
For instance:
This is a truism. Yet the LHMFM is trying to turn it into something scandalous. Just like his bridge closure.
If I were a GOP candidate with little chance of winning (I have zero chance, which is why I’m not a candidate) and a member of the LHMFM asked me that question I’d say, “Parents shouldn’t have a choice when it comes to vaccinations. No choice, no say. Really serious side effects are rare. If we want to vaccinate the kids for everything from Anthrax to Yellow Fever we will, and they just have to shut up about it.”
The news conference in which I respond to the media s***storm that would generate would no doubt boost my chances of winning. Because I would explain that this tempest in a teapot over Christie
s remarks is patently absurd. Of course if parents have concerns we should listen to them. It doesn’t mean we aren’t going to continue to require them to vaccinate their kids for Measles if they want to send their kids to a public school.
And this whole thing shows there’s no remark so bland a GOP candidate can make about simply listening to parental concerns, and acknowledging that just because a vaccination is available doesn’t mean we should force kids to get it, that the Democratic operatives in the LHMFM won’t make an issue of.
Then I’d point out that while 2015 Hillary! may have rejected 2008 Hillary!’s position on the link between vaccinations and autism, the 2008 LHMFM didn’t think to make an issue of them then. And her remarks were far more ridiculous than Christie’s. And Obama’s were just as bad if not worse.
The double standard is glaring.
I think my poll numbers with the base would shoot up.
Steve57 (8d38a0) — 2/3/2015 @ 1:42 pmChristie is all in for the Race to Cure Krispy Kreme Kompulsion…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 2/3/2015 @ 3:29 pmYou want crazy? You don’t know from crazy. This:
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=354720
DNF (46af08) — 2/3/2015 @ 3:48 pm99. It is simply undeniable, that, as herd immunity grows, and the incidence of measles drops, the relative danger of the vaccine and of measles reverses itself, and changes to the point where the vaccine is more dangerous, mathematically, than the risk of not being vaccinated.
Now that can’t be denied. Any debate simply has to take account of this mathemathical fact.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 2/3/2015 @ 11:40 am
If the chances of getting harmed from the vaccine is more than zero, you can do a cost benefit analysis.
When the incidence and the chances of catching a disease, or the chances of an outbreak of more than solitary cases, goes down, the “benefit” of vaccination goes down. But the “cost” remains the same.
Therefore, the risk benefit analysis can change to the point where not taking the vaccine is the safer course of action.
And then it can reverse itself again if too many people do not get vaccinated but the disease is not eliminated.
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 3:53 pmTo illustrate:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/marc-siegel-fear-measles-not-vaccines-1422315797
Sammy Finkelman (e806a6) — 2/3/2015 @ 4:06 pmFrom a libertarian point of view, people should be able to do as they like on the issue. But to me it seems like then you are also deciding you are opting out of the public school system, of using public facilities as well as private arenas, stadiums, public transit of all types; planes trains automobiles. Travel to countries that still have measle outbreaks might not be prohibited, but you might have to be quarantined upon reentry.
And the choice isn’t Measles or Autism the science for that has been proven for decades now. Any population as large as ours is going to have a few children who develop with Autism in the timeframe after their vaccination. This has been found to be coincidental
steveg (794291) — 2/3/2015 @ 4:36 pmAmnnd then theer wa sthe 1976 sawine flu vaccine – against adisease that did not exist (or more probably, had beecome extinct shortly it first appeared) and that caused vrey serious side effects.
That might have gone on longer if it wass the general rule taht vaccines were mandatory
You have to consider also what would be the situation in anew legal environement. Vaccines would not have to be defended and justified as much, and that changes things.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 2/4/2015 @ 4:34 pm