Patterico's Pontifications

Ding.

Patterico (9c670f) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:52 am

Great video. Thanks. And kudos to the preacher for challenging his thinking.

Ipso Fatso (10964d) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:15 am

I’m afraid to think of how folks among the victicrat division will respond to the poor reverend’s admission. I continue to think that folks who get critical of police officers should do exercises like this.

But it doesn’t make a good bumper sticker.

Thanks for posting this.

Simon Jester (d2b944) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:34 am

The heaviest weight you can burden yourself with is a chip on your shoulder.
You can either leave it at home, or be buried with it.

askeptic (efcf22) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:38 am

The fellow deserves praise for being willing to take a look from the other side.
Maybe Leviticus could take them up on it, not just being snarky, maybe he would have a new understanding as well.

MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:15 am

What a stunning report/video. Thank you for posting this.

DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:23 am

That segment needs to go full viral….

FYI, many police agencies have “civilian police academies” that allow regular citizens to go through the same training the police officers do. Not just use of force, but the training in the laws of arrest, search and seizure, criminal law, etc. The only thing withheld (in the one I am familiar with) is the actual firearms training because the department does not do a deep background check on the attendees so they cannot risk putting a firearm in the hands of someone who is not legally allowed to have one (felon, mentally disables, etc). The shoot-don’t shoot with non-firearms is part of it, however.

If you are interested, check with your local agency.

Gramps, the original (9e1415) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:28 am

I’m a prosecutor, and our State Trooper academy let some of us do virtual force-on-force.

Four of us did it: two of us got shot and killed, while the other two shot unarmed teenagers.

Piedmont (433dfd) — 1/9/2015 @ 10:04 am

He totally did each scenario incorrectly. The proper response is to shoot them all and then say “I was in fear for my life.” Then the review board would rubber stamp “justified shooting”.

Tom (f48f8c) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:00 am

Years ago I ran through a virtual force-on-force demonstration at our local academy. I didn’t shoot any innocents but I was “killed” twice. The ignorant who don’t know how difficult the job is can keep talking, but no one has to listen.
I would help a lot if the people who keep talking about getting in people faces and punching back twice as hard would tone it done a little. Treating each other with respect always helps.

tyree (8e4cdd) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:40 am

That guy is a Reverend just like $harpton and a well known sh*t disturber in our parish and a liar.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2009/04/jarrett_maupin_ii_pleads_guilt.php
And a “community organizer” just like another well known interloper.

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:04 pm

Also, he’s supposed to keep saying, “Stop resisting arrest.” Ad infinitum.

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:13 pm

Here is a Chicago radio personality being waterboarded:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0

carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:15 pm

I think that training would be a good “sentence” for all the dopey protestors who haven’t done anything violent…yet.

Patricia (5fc097) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:17 pm

So, Gazzer, do you think the exercise really did any good? Even if he was a bad actor before, it would appear that maybe his views have changed a bit.

MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:58 pm

10. tyree (8e4cdd) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:40 am

Years ago I ran through a virtual force-on-force demonstration at our local academy. I didn’t shoot any innocents but I was
“killed” twice.

This thing is probably rigged, like the Kobayashi Maru.

Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:12 pm

The next thing is to have two Garner protesters try to take a passively resisting “suspect” into custody. That just might open some eyes, it ain’t easy.

labcatcher (61737c) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:19 pm

Its rigged in the sense that the confrontations put the “officer” in an incredibly bad spot to make a decision, but those are exactly the situations that people are being critical of the police over.

Dejectedhead (4bfcf6) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:20 pm

MD, people like him never do the right thing. They don’t care about black on black violence. Their very existence depends on continually shaking down corporate interests for their own coffers. He is not an honest man. He is a mini $harpton or Je$$e Jack$on. They all could accomplish so much, but there’s no money in that, so…

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:20 pm

In fact, one ex-cop thinks the whole thing was a propaganda tool,
This entire activity is an exercise in psychological warfare as there are only two possible outcomes in these training activities given the aforementioned factors.

Outcome 1: You shoot and kill the suspect, which then shows how police violence is necessary.

Outcome 2: The suspect ends up killing you, which shows how dangerous the job of law enforcement is.

In either case it is a false dichotomy, meant to facilitate a false sympathy towards law enforcement by showing the job they do in a very misleading light given the major advantages an officer on the beat has vs. a citizen off the street participating in this exercise.

Read the whole thing,
https://patterico.com/2015/01/09/feelgood-story-of-the-day-anti-police-activist-undergoes-use-of-force-training-and-learns-a-valuable-lesson/#comment-1727626

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:39 pm

The point being, the cops only gave him a gun. No taser. No baton. As they say, when all you have is a hammer…

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:40 pm

maybe so, gazer, but I think it is true enough.

My son could have been the victim in the one scenario, with the side of a doorway taking the place of the car (a hostage yelled a warning about the gun, which may have saved him),
and I know not all officers have the training, skill, and physical capabilities to take down someone with a baton or extendable baton (asp) (how many do, IDK)
and even if they did, that too would look ugly and could result in death if someone had an underlying medical condition.

Maybe having a tazer as an option would be important for a better simulation and real life, IDK;
but we cannot expect every law enforcement official to have the skills of Chuck Norris (yes, hyperbole) to neutralize the threat of someone not cooperating

MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/9/2015 @ 2:00 pm

Gazzer, I don’t believe the scenarios are supposed to be entirely accurate. However the scenarios presented are consistent with academy and in-service training. They do emphasize the dangers of the job and for young Officers that is important. Some leave the academy after going through the scenarios and seeing what they may have to do on the street.

No taser, no baton. As to the taser, most cops don’t have room on the belt to carry one, although light they are bulky. I don’t think they wanted to give a baton to the reverend, he might have used it.

labcatcher (61737c) — 1/9/2015 @ 2:22 pm

Anything that Maupin is involved in is suspect. He is not an honest actor. He is $harpton’s mini-me. So color me skeptical. If you read my link above you will see why. As much as I dislike him, he may even have been the dupe in this.

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 2:28 pm

Hmm, maybe someone needs to build a better tazer.

I defer to your judgment since you know him, Gazzer. Give us follow up as you can whether or not the fellow continues to demonstrate a new appreciation.

My son the detective was happy to see it, he thought it was realistic enough to be meaningful. IIRC labcatcher has law enforcement background. Perhaps the roll playing was not the perfect simulation exercise, but I think it is realistic enough to make some legitimate points.

I assume everyone saw the link the other night with the live action body-cam recording of the Albuquerque officer shot while approaching a suspect for a traffic stop?

MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:26 pm

Great post. Thanks.

The most valuable advice given to me on dealing with law enforcement has come from officers who give talks on how dangerous their job is and what concerns them most. One officer explained that nighttime traffic-stops cause a great deal of anxiety in officers because of the inability to see what is in the car they have stopped – which could be anything. The officer went on to explain that if the motorist would simply turn on the interior light before the officer approached, this would go a long way to pacifying the officer.

I actually got to put this advice to use a few years ago when my brother and I were on a return trip from gambling at a casino across the state line around two am. I was driving too fast and got pulled over by a ~~Storm~~ State trooper. I remembered the officer’s advice for this situation and turned on the dome light as soon as I put the car in Park. The officer approached with his hand on his holstered weapon. He asked a few questions and gave me a warning, and before he left, he told me that he appreciated my turning the interior light on and to drive safe. Cops are our friends.

felipe (56556d) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:27 pm

MD, I skipped the video of the cop getting shot – I am fully desensitized to make-believe violence, but not to real violence.

felipe (56556d) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:29 pm

it wasn’t bloody or grotesque, and the officer was conscious the whole time and graphically described how bad it hurt. The camera was left on for awhile after help came and he had said a number of expletives.
The only way the guy could have protected himself better (other than more extensive body armor, standard of which he was already using) would have been to approach the door of the car with pistol drawn, but I am sure that is not standard procedure for a “routine” traffic stop.

MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:42 pm

Thanks for the details, doc.

felipe (56556d) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:52 pm

“Hmm, maybe someone needs to build a better tazer.”

– MD in Philly

I agree. I’ve said as much before, but to a less favorable reception.

Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:59 pm

In fact, one ex-cop thinks the whole thing was a propaganda tool.
Gazzer

Gazzer, you forget one very important factor about policing in Phoenix (or anywhere in Arizona). Everyone can carry a concealed weapon without the need for a permit. The weapon can include anything from a box cutter to a .460 magnum and the police officer has no way of knowing if his attacker only intends to beat him to death or has the tools to slash or shoot him. Any aggressor closer than twenty-one feet away is considered to be within lethal range and deadly force is therefore justified. This rule applies to ordinary citizens as well as police officers. So, no, this exercise is not just a propaganda tool.

PPs43 (6fdef4) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:17 pm

MD at 22. You hit the nail on the head with the baton not looking good. Strikes are ugly but don’t do as much damage as it looks like if the blows are kept in the approved areas. Rodney King incident is a prime example of that, not much in the way of injuries and several officers go to prison after the second trial. The asp looks cool and is good for poking and breaking windows, not much else.

labcatcher (61737c) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:57 pm

PPs43, you forget one important factor. Perps carry in all 50 states, so your point is moot.

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:43 pm

Gazzer,
Some perps carry in any jurisdiction, but in many localities an added gun violation, in addition to assaulting a cop, will keep the average drunk or petty criminal from packing. Just about everyone in AZ who is so inclined has a concealed weapon. Knowing this, a police officer in Phoenix would be a fool to give an aggressive individual the slightest benefit of the doubt. So, no, my point is not moot. In Az “Breathe Easy, Don’t Commit a Crime” is more than just a slogan. It’s a life-saving technique.

PPs43 (6fdef4) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:59 pm

I’ve said as much before, but to a less favorable reception.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:59 pm

It’s the context, Leviticus.
I am suggesting a better tazer may be nice tool when an officer needs to apprehend an “unarmed” suspect who is dangerous and might otherwise kill the officer and others with the officer’s weapon.
You think an “unarmed” suspect is never so dangerous as warranting being shot.

MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:01 pm

Sorry, the italics messed up.

MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:02 pm

We’ll have to agree to disagree. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Gazzer (c44509) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:05 pm

One downside to carrying a tazer, along with a stick and a gun is that just carrying the tazer adds a measurable amount of time to the officer’s response. The officer ends up mentally debating which tool to grab. Also, tazers are not foolproof; the barbs don’t always make contact with flesh. Additionally, info came out a few years ago that some bad folk (cons) were practicing swinging their arms when confronted with a tazer. Law enforcement confirmed that one could break the wires and defeat the tazer before being incapacitated. Tazers are usually used when there is a second officer backup with a real firearm.

There is nothing out there that will absolutely stop everyone (including an officer using a firearm) who means to do harm to the officer, let alone something that would cause little or no damage to the suspect who tries.

Roy in Nipomo (8c3b61) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:20 pm

@32… And there is the case where the perp takes the baton from the officer. Yes, true. And the perp then becomes even more of a hazard to the officer as he is no longer “unarmed”. The perp finally went down after absorbing 10 rds of .38Spec+P (all 8-ring or better). Reloading the revolver under stress is not just a drill for the range.

A scenario not limited to nightmares.

Gramps, the original (9e1415) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:34 pm

Gramps, I agree and the baton gets taken more than anyone realizes. 10 inside the 8 ring is impressive shooting since ( if I recall correctly) cops miss better than 70% of the time. Getting a reload done in a shooting is pretty impressive too.

labcatcher (61737c) — 1/10/2015 @ 9:27 am

Taser’s have to be built small enough that they can be easily accessed and used, but large enough that they have the battery power to incapacitate the target, and at a cost that they can be commercially sold.
The physics don’t always balance out.
Firearms solved most of these issues at least a century ago.

askeptic (efcf22) — 1/10/2015 @ 11:55 am

On Tasers: The BART cop in the ‘Fruitdale Station’ killing mistakenly drew his pistol instead of his taser when he intended to ‘jack up’ his cuffed arrestee for mouthing off and rattling him. Just having a Taser itself is dangerous.

And as far as Tasers and like devices go, people have been trying to perfect a nonlethal weapon for a long long time. Tasers are much less lethal than guns, but accidents happen. They are also not as sure of a takedown as a firearm. Some people die when tased. If your arms are up, the muscle contraction will drag your arms down and may rip out the contacts. Their penetration through heavy clothing is much less as is their range as is their number of shots.

Drugs are variable, slow, and kill too many people for dart guns to be useful against people.
It’s a mess.

Around here I’ve heard of a certain radio personality who got to roleplay various personalities in these similar scenarios for actual training of policemen. He was the talker, not the shooter in the various scenarios though. I’d like to have a shot at that someday but alas, it’s not exactly something you can volunteer for.

luagha (1de9ec) — 1/11/2015 @ 3:22 am

Amazing that one of the protesters would do the test…..good for him. Hope that he passes the lesson on to his fellow protesters.

irishgolfer (de2cd3) — 1/12/2015 @ 8:20 am

What are your favorite links in the Republic? Northern Ireland?

mg (31009b) — 1/12/2015 @ 8:38 am

1/9/2015

Feelgood Story of the Day: Anti-Police Activist Undergoes Use of Force Training and Learns a Valuable Lesson

44 Responses to “Feelgood Story of the Day: Anti-Police Activist Undergoes Use of Force Training and Learns a Valuable Lesson”

Favorite Sites

Links

Patterico Sells Out