Obama: Let’s Give Two Free Years of Community College to Everyone!!!!!1!!!!1!!
Oh, Good Lord. The lefty in the Oval Office is now calling for free community college. For two years, anyway (if it’s passed, though, it will expand to more; mark my words). It’s not technically “everyone” he wants to give it to — but millions.
TANSTAAFE. (There ain’t no such thing as a free education.)
James Pethokoukis had an excellent post about the unintended consequences of a free college education back in February. He cites Andrew P. Kelly to this effect:
[I]t’s not clear that a public option would automatically raise student success. Take California’s community colleges, which have the lowest published tuition in the nation – $1,135 in 2011-12 – and are essentially free to many students who qualify for Pell Grants.
A 2012 analysis by the Institute for a Competitive Workforce found that retention and completion rates across California’s community colleges were above the national average. But completion rates were even higher at two-year colleges in Wisconsin and North Dakota, where tuition is two to three times as high and Pell Grant recipients make up a larger percentage of enrollments.
Part of the reason: students work harder when their education isn’t free. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York (official motto: we don’t just interfere with a market economy; we also do research!) published a study in 2004 that came to the following conclusion regarding the effect of subsidies in higher education:
The findings are that subsidizing tuition increases enrollment rates, however it also considerably reduces student effort. This follows from the fact that a high-subsidy, low-tuition policy causes an increase in the ratio of less able and less highly-motivated college graduates. Additionally, and potentially more importantly, all students, even the more highly-motivated ones, respond to lower tuition levels by decreasing their effort levels.
Additionally, any time there is a giant government giveaway, one must remember the lesson of Bastiat’s “Broken Window” parable: the economy consists of the seen and the unseen. We see the people who get free education. What we don’t see is the alternate things that could have been done with the money by those who actually pay for it. Because community college under Obama’s idiotic plan won’t actually be “free” — it will simply be paid for by other people. And the money taken from those people is thereby diverted from other uses, including savings supporting capital investment our market economy.
Finally, there is the “Bennett Hypothesis” — the hypothesis advanced in 1987 by William Bennett that increased subsidies lead to increased tuition. Better yet, the “Bennett Hypothesis 2.0,” a label used by Andrew Gillen, who did his own study in February 2012 and concluded:
As higher financial aid pushes costs higher, it inevitably puts upward pressure on tuition. Higher tuition, of course, reduces college affordability, leading to calls for more financial aid, setting the vicious cycle in motion all over again.
I suppose it could be just a coincidence that increased government subsidies have coincided with increased tuition, just as prices rise in any industry that is subsidized. But this is not merely a case of correlation not meaning causation, because the cause-and-effect relationship is simple, basic economics. Colleges have fairly fixed costs, and have an incentive to charge whatever they can, as extra students increase profits without greatly increasing marginal costs. Subsidies enable large increases, and the worse the problem gets, the more government will subsidize.
This is a disastrous idea on multiple levels.
But given the low level of economic education in the country, including among the media, it seems unlikely that anyone is going to understand this. Expect people beaten down by ridiculous tuition rates to cheer and applaud a policy that will inevitably make the problem worse.
Ding.
Patterico (9c670f) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:08 pmThere’s nothing wrong with free college education. It’s the norm in most of the rest of the world.* As long as it’s tied to a high school diploma or GED, an entrance exam score, and maintenance of an acceptable course load and grade point average. That last takes care of most of the motivation factor.
Right now, the City Colleges of Chicago pay some students to go there. P-A-Y. Transportation and baby sitting for baby mamas. But it’s tied to attendance and a passing grade. You can take your stipend and do nothing to earn it one time only.
*I know. We’re not like the rest of the world. We’re exceptional.
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:22 pmGreetings:
I spent some time in one of the City University of New York’s colleges back in the ’70s. Back there and then, students paid an $80 fee each semester but no actual tuition, so it was kind of free. My recollection goes something like this. In September, 30 students in the class. In October, 25. In November 20 and in December 15, which was actually pretty good if you were serious about your studies because the professors had lots of time for questions and explanations.
Shortly there after New York City went bankrupt and was award an Emergency Financial Control Board and the fee only idea flew away.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:31 pmNot so sure about that. Care to back up that statement.
I am aware of a handful of countries who provide it. Most of those countries have crap economies.
Again: the law of unintended consequences and the seen/unseen distinction make this unwise.
Patterico (9c670f) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:32 pmI think it is a great idea.
They have two extra years to learn everything they should have learned in high school.*
Years ago, my high school was across the street from the local community college. We used to refer to it as “13tg grade”.
kishnevi (294553) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:37 pmI read recently that current college freshmen read and write at what used to be called seventh grade levels. So what is an extra two years to make up for the shambles K-12 has become?
steveg (794291) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:53 pmWe’ll be more competitive… yay… at what? yay. at attending useless classes at mediocre schools… yay.
(I want to point out that I usually write at a mid year eighth grade level, so back up off me)
In the world of Dem political pandering, this may be panderingest pander in the history of pandering pander.
I have two kids in college visiting over the break. When they heard this they both said, and I’m not kidding, “Well, let’s just make our degrees worthless.”
Honestly, can the President make himself more smaller?
Ag80 (eb6ffa) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:05 pmObama is a MARXIST. UNDERSTAND YET? He is trying once again to BUY POWER. He already wants to FORGIVE Student loans that he thru another power grab put under FEDERAL GOVT control. He’s a Commie. He is promising UTOPIA. He will deliver PUMPERNICKEL.
Gus (7cc192) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:18 pmAnd just which Tooth Fairy is going to pay to keep those JC doors open?
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:53 pmMaybe we could pay for it with all the money we’re saving on BarryCare.
Askeptic. How soon we forget. It will be the RICH paying their FAIR SHARE. Marxists LIE and LIE and LIE and LIE. They set the BIG LIE hook, in the fishes (L.I.V) voters mouth, and they move on to the next BIG LIE. HANDS UP!!! DON’T SHOOT!!! “WE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT VIDEO”
ETC ETC VOMIT.
Gus (7cc192) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:15 pmJust remember, to a Progressive, the RICH are anyone with a job.
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:23 pmAskeptic. So true. The difference is, that the LIBTARD/MARXIST/PROGRESSIVE is always planning on another “move”. It’s like “chess”. Libs/Marxists, will never accept a loss, nor will these dishonest Commies ever admit to being FAILURES that they are.
Gus (7cc192) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:38 pmFTFY!
redc1c4 (269d8e) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:07 amDOH!
“except”
redc1c4 (269d8e) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:07 amHaving taught at a California J.C. for the last ten+ years, it is my opinion that half the students shouldn’t be there. Many lack skills they should have learned in high school, many are simply unmotivated, and the rest are too dim to benefit from college classes. It’s all about buying votes.
Otto Maddox (990b3b) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:19 amI think we should all have a free federal lawn-mowing service. It’s terrible the way some people let their lawns go!
Kevin M (25bbee) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:49 amwhat kind of idiot would *pay* to go to a community college once obama’s reduced them to the quality of failmerica’s crappy joke of a public school system
happyfeet (831175) — 1/9/2015 @ 2:29 amA couple of years ago I took a number of evening classes in internet database (PHP, SQL, Access, HTML, Flash) programming at a local community college. It was generally fairly interesting and portions (PHP, SQL, Access) were substantive, although the GUI stuff was presented along the lines of learning how to type. My fellow students in the relational database courses were a mixed lot. Many were in their 40’s, had immigrated to this country 20 years ago, and had small businesses that they hoped to apply their new knowledge to. Another quarter were geezers like myself who were doing it for the challenge and to keep our brains engaged, and the other quarter were in their 20’s. Some of these younger students were driven, they were trying to make up for lost time, but they didn’t have very good people skills. The 40 year olds tended to fold up and checked out when the material got too tough, which made it hard on their team mates in the team projects, but they persisted and finished the course. The grading was extremely generous. The teachers were practioners and ranged from very good to fair. A typical class had 20 to 25 students, and we all had work stations and the instructors used networking methods that allowed them to gather real time input, an improvement over the tradtional method of gathering input by raising your hand, and the tests were done via submission of completed programs from the work stations. It was worth the modest cost of tuition. I think I spent about $400 per class. The younger students had hopes of transferring to a four year college after they’d accumulated enough hours and experience. I don’t know how they faired, but I think they would find something like the UW’s computer science program a bit beyond their abilities even with the community college preparation. But some were very focused and they might have been able to succeed if they got in.
The remarkable thing was that we were kind of the cream of the student crop. For every class like the ones we took, there were four other classes that were GED related. I recall one Algebra 1 class in another building that had fourty or fifty late teen/early twenty year olds. I’d walk by it every evening, and could look down into the class room on my way to the computer science building. The students appeared to be stuggling with the material. These students seemed to be the real focus of the college. And they could be trouble. One decided to camp out in one of the computer labs, and it nearly came to blows when our instructor asked him to leave so one of us could use the work station. This was very weird. But Obola had just passed Ebolacare and AAms were feeling entitled and a bit frisky.
I think the classes I took were of general benefit and could justify the state and county investment in the community college. The GED stuff was important, but it was a testimony to wasted time, and hence of lives. Much of the material they covered should have been learned when they were young kids. But our K-12 education system is so disfunctional that it is inevitable that this kind of salvage operation will be necessary. I give the GED students credit for committing to the time, and more credit for those who made the effort to learn these things.
The costs of the programs were very modest, and there were a variety of grants that a student could apply for given the need. I can see no reason why the education should be subsidized beyond what is done presently. A little skin in the game will make for better decisions by the students.
bobathome (348c8a) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:25 amI found Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Scotland, Greece, Estonia, Finland, Argentina, Brazil in several places on Google, and that’s for four year and post-graduate degrees. If there is a comprehensive list, I was not able to formulate the proper search terms for it.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 3:42 amOne of the better links http://www.businessinsider.com/tuition-costs-by-country-college-higher-education-2012-6#norway-15
Another question is how many are enrolled, what are their qualifications, and what obligations do they incur. I seem to recall that places like Germany have a two track system for their students, and those that don’t qualify for the college-bound track receive a more practical education, although even these high school graduates would compare favorably with our “technical college” (community college focused on job training) graduates. I also have a hunch that a lot of the foreign students that come to the U. S. for college are the losers in this state-sponsored educational lottery.
bobathome (348c8a) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:12 amCloward and Piven roll on.
DNF (26e1da) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:24 amYou’re right about that, bobathome. It’s the way you said it. I know that it’s hard to place; you place for the whole dinner i.e. doctor, lawyer, (usually six years); and the second tier is “technical schools” i.e. computer programming not computer design, bookkeeper not accountant as we know it, etc. I know that in Greece and have read that in Korea there is a thriving market of after-school tutoring to get kids to score well on the entrance exams.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:27 amThis has got to be one of the dumbest proposals I’ve every heard of in my life, even for Obama.
Community college tuition is ALREADY very low. Anyone who needs help (low income folks) with community college tuition can get a virtual free ride already. Average annual tuition is about 3300 bucks (only around 900 bucks in California). About 60% of students in community colleges receive financial aid – mainly Pell grants. About 60% graduate with no debt whatsoever.
Finally, among first time degree-seeking students, only about 20% graduate. I don’t see how requiring students to have even less skin in the game than they now do is going to improve graduation rates. I paid my own way through two community colleges before going on to a 4 year college by tutoring my fellow students in college algebra, stats, calculus, business law I & II and English. The students who weren’t doing well were almost uniformly failing for at least one of these two reasons:
1. Insufficient academic preparation (they didn’t learn the basics in high school), coupled with
2. Unwillingness to do the work required to master the material. I literally had one student tell me that he *had* to work at the local record store to make the payments on his new TransAm (!). He was living with his parents and had no other expenses.
*sigh*
If this program were competitive (i.e., you had to ace a series of exams to get the free tuition), then perhaps the right incentives would be in place to actually help students graduate. Going to community college is already easy: acceptance isn’t competitive and the cost (especially if you’re low income and eligible for Pell grants) is low.
The barriers to succeeding at a community college are quite low, and are not the kinds of things government can solve for us.
Cassandra (f90cc9) — 1/9/2015 @ 5:13 amCassandra, I know that too. I already pointed out that some Chicago City Colleges students get cash stipends for incidental expenses. And I think, too, that Obama is pandering to the SEIU and teachers unions.
Here’s the thing. In Griggs v. Duke Power Co. (1971), the Supreme Court ruled that Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act prohibits not only intentional job discrimination, but also employer practices that have a discriminatory effect on minorities and women. The Court held that tests and other employment practices that disproportionately screened out African American applicants for jobs at the Duke Power Company were prohibited when the tests were not shown to be job-related.
This case is still law and its progeny has been upheld across the board for every group and employment. Employers, barred from giving their own proficiency exams, use college degrees for hiring. Colleges are allowed to “discriminate”, you see. So … if you want a decent job you need a college degree because that’s what the employer is allowed to judge you on.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 5:28 amI was under the impression a community college was just that: maintained by the community. The object being to provide a low cost local college level education to members of that community and financially supported by that community. I also thought they were funded and run by the county with perhaps some aide from the state. So what the hell does the federal government or Obama have to do with community colleges? Just another power grab by socialist statists to show that resistance is futile.
Why not? After all “free” education along with Obamacare can prove to the rest of the world (and our own home-grown leftists) that America is no better than Sweden. Odd how all these countries in Europe have free healthcare, free education, free this and free that but it’s been our country which has dominated the last 150 years of history. We’re a young country and they’ve been around for millennia yet it’s we who has to step up to protect them. But we’re the bad guys. I guess when the American taxpayer and the American military provides the lions share of their collective defense the money they save protecting themselves they can use to pay for all these free-bees.
And yet we still have ore Nobel Prize inners, more new inventions and more technical and medical break through’s than all those losers put together (and that includes those dynamic economies of Sweden, Norway, Greece and Estonia!).
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:31 ami thought the Gates Foundation bought all the community colleges
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:36 amObama has been talking about this (the first two years f college free) for a long time. He’s trotting it out now because he’s trotting out a lot of things he doesn’t expect to happen. If the Republican Cogress is not going to do what he wants anyway, he might as well, come out for tha maximum.
Well, the maximum would be 4 years of college free, but that’s too much to bite off at one time.
Now in New York City, City Unoversity and any pf its branches used to be free until 1977. Now even Cooper Union wants to charge tuition.
This is going backwards. It’s happening because college costs too much, and maybe you could aay because a lot of people are enrolled who don’t really want to be.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:48 amCollege is free in most of Northern Europe.
Does this include technical school? We are going to be facing a shortage of skilled blue-collar workers; doing something about that would make sense.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:49 amyou practically have to be a blue collar worker to qualify for the top tier of disability benefits
I should think that’s more than enough incentive
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:53 amI got my Associates degree (LOL) from a community college. At that time, total tuition was around ~$3600, which I paid by delivering pizzas and tutoring. I just checked their website, and today, it’s a whopping $7200. I’m not sure that making something that costs $100 or $200 per month “free” helps anyone. Again, unless it’s technical education to address some valid need in the labor market.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:53 amThe question is: what will they study in these community colleges?
Michael Bloomberg pointed out not very long ago that it would be better for most people to forget college and become a skilled tradesman; plumber was the job he used to make his point, but carpenter, HVAC tech or sparktrician would have fit just as well. A decent plumber will always be able to find work; someone who majored in Women’s Studies, perhaps not.
Then again, I don’t know how many community colleges have Women’s Studies courses available!
The highly edumacated Dana (78d5b0) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:56 amGiving it away won’t fill that void, carlitos.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:56 amHoagie (4dfb34) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:31 am
The money is available, and this is nationwide, so gets support everywhere.
Of course Obama pays no attention to the quality of the education. All college credits are equal, and equally valuable.
They’d be better off supporting libraries, and availability of old books and periodicals, both trade and academic. You’d get real knowledge that way.
Just another power grab by socialist statists to show that resistance is futile.
Odd how all these countries in Europe have free healthcare, free education, free this and free that but it’s been our country which has dominated the last 150 years of history.
Well, the United States has a little bit more free enterprise, even the banks lend more readily, and also more money.
And yet we still have ore Nobel Prize winners,
Although nowadsys they tend somewhat more to born and receoved their elementary education somewhere else.
more new inventions and more technical and medical break through’s
While the regulatory requirements may be somewhat worse here, there’s more money. But you must realize there’s nothing compared to what there should be.
The dialysis cure for most infectious diseases, like ebola: invented here, tried out in Europe, , ona slow, slow track.
The cure for paralysis: Paralyzed, and tried out in Europe, not here.
New antibiotics: On a slow, slow track.
Re-growing cut off finger tops: how many years has it been since the inventor senmt the preparation to his brother – and youdon’t hear anything about it, do you?
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:58 amcarlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 6:49 am
And in undeveloped countries, elementary educaton costs money.
One thing you don’t see: compulsory, not free education. Whatever is compulsory is free.
Except for health insuarnce in the United states under Obamacare. Yes, there are all sorts of complications where a person can avoid having to pay something that is way above what he can afford.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:01 amNo, but it would at least make some sense. Set up quotas of linemen, welders, nurses, whatever, and try to edumacate them. Giving someone free general education at a community college is just extending high school for 2 years.
When I went to community college, we called it “high school with ashtrays.”
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:02 ami’d love to be a plumber and travel around from place to place solving plumbing emergencies for desperate villagers
“Don’t worry,” I’d say. “I know just what to do.”
And then I’d get to work.
The villagers would beg me not to go, but I’d politely but firmly but sadly tell them that no, I’m needed elsewhere now, and I’d wave goodbye saying don’t you cry – I’ll be back again someday!
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:02 amMr Finkelman wrote:
As it happens, my mortgage company fouled up, and did not may my property taxes in September, so I had to pay them myself: $2,009 to the Jim Thorpe Area School District. Now, there’s no tuition for the JTA public schools, but I’ve got a receipt in my tax folder which tells me that the schools ain’t free!
The taxpayer Dana (78d5b0) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:05 amOtto Maddox (990b3b) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:19 am
No, campaign help and money from teacher’s unions.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:06 amI know Truman had an auto shop, including body work. Lots and lots of computer lab. In Chicago, there are union schools for the trades, like plumber, electrician, carpenter. I don’t know if CCC competes with them.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:07 amfeets, as long as you’re channeling your inner David Carradine, think welding. I hear that it’s lucrative.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:08 amMost pf the years when City College was free, a person needed more than hih school graduation to get in, I think. They went to “Open admisisons” in 1970.
Later, this was restricted to the 2-year colleges I think, but not till after they’d started charging tuition.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:08 am$6,000+ for Illinois District 96, so get your boat while I cry you a river.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:08 amThey will all be aghast when the costs for this type of nonsense goes up. Removing the “purchaser” from the effects of the purchase never seems to do anything but raise costs. See – higher education already.
What else should be “free”?
JD (86a5eb) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:09 amCookies, booze, and air travel. Oh, and Simpsons DVDs. and this lamp. and this remote control.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:12 amplumbing is nothing to sneeze at though for sure
i had a welder in Burbank named John Fair he was this 80-something-year-old black guy and you could hardly get him to take money for anything
he’d tell you about growing up in Texas – about how when you got sick you had to drink cow patty tea, which was made out of… god bless america
he has a shop in a quonset hut … he said the whole street used to be huts huts huts all in a row, but that there were just a few like his left in the whole town anymore
a pikachu though, he only has so much stuff he can bring in for welding, and Burbank lies many villages to the west now
but I think about Mr. Fair sometimes when stuff breaks or whatever
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:15 amCarlitos wrote:
My darling bride (of 35 years, 7 months and 21 days) earned her Associates of Science in Nursing at Thomas Nelson Community College, and is a registered nurse today.
So, now, the American Nursing Association, plus some states, are pushing for a requirement that RNs have to have bachelor’s degrees, and many hospitals are going along with that. Mrs Pico is taking the occasional course, online, toward a BSN that won’t make her any better a nurse, because the handwriting is on the wall: big hospitals are pushing for BSN nurses, and it won’t be too much longer before ASN nurses won’t be able to find jobs at larger hospitals. As long as she’s taking those courses, we figure the hospital won’t push her out before retirement, and she’s already 55. (Her employer already pushed out Licensed Practical Nurses, LPNs.)
My lovely wife has all sorts of certifications which have to do with her job, advanced pediatric life support, CPR, chemotherapy certifications, and some others, but the bureaucrats are pushing for a piece of paper which is essentially meaningless as far as how good a nurse someone is, but really is a nice piece of paper, embossed with a gold seal and signed by important people.
The married Dana (78d5b0) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:15 amMr feet wrote:
A
The practical Dana (78d5b0) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:18 amfriendacquaintance of mine who is a plumber once told me how he made so much money: he was willing to stick his hands in other people’s [insert slang term for feces here.]“No, campaign help and money from teacher’s unions.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:06 am”
Exactly what I said. Also, this gives the Marxist instructors more students to indoctrinate.
Otto Maddox (990b3b) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:21 amJD, in my search I also came across countries where you have to pay for college. About one-fourth or less of what you have to pay here. A year’s median income for all four years, as opposed to a year’s median income per year here. The college bubble cannot be attributed to low or no tuition. It’s a system that demands a college education for just about any white collar (with or without jacket and tie) job these days.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:29 amThe married Dana (78d5b0) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:15 am
It’s worse.
They’ve got all this needless writing to do too. (That’s supposed to show their expertise)
Now nurses really should know alot of medicine, because if someone knows what’s going on, it’s imposisble to make certain kinds of mistakes. But what you have now is make-work and make-study.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:34 amThinking back, I only recall 2 Marxist teachers in all my years of education. One of them spray-painted “Stop Nixon” on the student center at ISU, and had the pictures to prove it.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:39 amNk- the college bubble can be attributed to direct govt interference in the marketplace. Care to guess what will happen should this nonsense ever pass?
JD (86a5eb) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:42 amFactoring in that one doesn’t have to even be a high school graduate or ever had to attend in order to go to a junior college makes it even more ridiculous. It’s not rewarding the motivated individuals, but instead everyone is lumped in together and gets the freebie. Because everyone deserves it.
This is the same mentality that we’ve seen in the “everyone deserves to own a home” premise – whether one can afford to buy it, make a down payment, pay a monthly mortgage, etc. Or everyone deserves to own a cell phone, have wifi, a computer, etc.
Dana (8e74ce) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:48 amTech colleges in concert with local business interests do a great job of shoehorning those seeking a new career into existing jobs.
About those existing jobs then,.., where are they?
DNF (26e1da) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:48 amsurplus military weapons & ammunition.
😎
redc1c4 (cf3b04) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:51 amat the government agency overseeing this program?
or at the CC… you do have a degree, right?
redc1c4 (cf3b04) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:52 amSure. Businesses are not content to survive, they want to expand. Community colleges will try to attract more students. The biggest danger is lowering the admission requirements while trying to maintain a good graduation rate. Grade inflation and devaluation of the degree. But it’s also happening now with pay to play. The real objection is who pays, right? Mommy and daddy and the student (through loans) or the taxpayers generally?
The opposite side is the Harvardization of places like your alma mater (I went to Circle, heh), where it’s both expensive and hard to get in defeating the purpose for which state colleges were created in the first place, making cheap or free community colleges necessary.
And I still contend that the real fault in the system is the paper chase.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:53 amGotta give all those new deferred action future voters something to do so they don’t have to wash dishes, cut grass, change sheets or pick crops in the fields.
crazy (cde091) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:55 am2 of my cousins went to Circle, while they worked at US Steel. Not a bad school. I used to see their hockey and basketball games a lot, plus the baseball field is pretty cool.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 7:58 amI did not deliver pizzas, I had a newsstand at the Logan Square stop of the Blue Line. I’d open for the morning rush hour, close it and take the train to Circle, and come back and reopen it for the evening rush hour. Ergonomics, it’s a science.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:01 am“Of course Obama pays no attention to the quality of the education. All college credits are equal, and equally valuable.”
Sammy – Obama did float a proposal a couple of years ago to rank colleges based on whether their graduates found jobs and cut off aid to the lowest performers. More typical thug government from his administration.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:07 amAll those touting “free” college education in Northern Europe and elsewhere, seems like one major difference is that Obama wants to make it available to everybody, which is not necessarily the policy elsewhere.
The broader availability of financial aid in this country has allowed colleges to raise the list price of attending their schools faster than inflation, but only a small percentage of students pay list.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:11 amOffering “free” tuition to prospective cc students will make it easier (and only “fair”) for the president to refund or write off the student debt of previous and current cc students, no? This is how nice sounding ideas turn into big ticket items for taxpayers.
elissa (40c9e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:11 amThere’s talk about the “military-industrial complex” making out like gangbusters from government largesse, but the educational-college complex has done damn well in its own right for several decades. Some of that is due to tax support cushioning student loans for tuition, and colleges have been able to finesse that by their ability to levy fees well above the rate of inflation for quite awhile. The cozy confines of many grade-school bureaucracies and their affiliated teacher unions — with tenure for all, and policies that make firing lousy employees very difficult — are also widely known.
If liberals (and others) have to kowtow to the educational establishment, at least go the route of Germany and start focusing not on la-de-dah universities but on just-the-facts-m’am trade technical colleges.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:18 amJust how expensive will two years of community college become, once it’s “free?”
Loren (1e34f2) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:19 amIf you have a hankering to become a squeegee operator at a solar panel factory, community college is the way to go.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:34 amOMG, you get better results when people have skin-in-the-game.
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/9/2015 @ 8:54 amWho Knew?
How about EMT, paramedic, phlebotomist, nurse, radiology technician, dental technician or hygienist, pharmacist’s assistant, bookkeeper, computer technician or programmer, fingerprint expert, forensic firearm expert, machinist, foundry (can’t be “forger”), general lab tech …?
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:00 amI forgot zookeeper. Now that’s a cool job.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:02 amzookeeper, aka, security guard at a government office building.
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:03 am“If you have a hankering to become a squeegee operator at a solar panel factory, community college is the way to go.”
papertiger – It takes two semesters of course work at community college to learn the skills become burger flipper at a fast food restaurant these days. This is how we stay competitive with the rest of the world.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:04 am“If you have a hankering to become a squeegee operator at a solar panel factory, community college is the way to go.”
– papertiger
Man, people sure are hard to please on the subject of other people’s education. Going to an Ivy League school is bad, going to a non-Ivy is bad, going to a community college is bad… what’s even left? Bob Jones?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:06 amBarber college. I’m glad to see men training as barbers again, and not as hairdressers. Did you know that only licensed barbers are allowed to use a razor on skin? Hairdressers and cosmetologists are not.
nk (dbc370) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:11 amand that would be total immersion Spanish language classes, so your illegal alien supervisor can boss you around for your 20 hours a week of employment.
redc1c4 (cf3b04) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:11 amMy local 2-year college does an excellent job training people to do the jobs nk lists in comment 68, and our community is in great need of them. But if it’s free, I’m afraid students will view this as another 2 years of remedial high school — something to do because they don’t know what they want to do, instead of a path to a real job. At least they can stay home on their parents’ health insurance, so it works well with Obama’s master plan.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:17 amI did a semester at the ABQ TVI while I was waiting to take my GED and SATs. I found the students at TVI to be far more devoted, as a rule, to their classes – primarily because so many of them were taking time away from work to attend them. Lots of the students, particularly the middle-aged students, recognized that a degree would allow them to advance in their careers. So, even if they struggled with the material, they worked really hard to master it. It sounds corny, but it was very inspiring.
I have a ton of respect and affection for community colleges. That said, they are already very cheap, and financial assistance is already available for those that need it. I’m not opposed to making community college free, in principle, but a) this seems far more like a stunt than a well-considered proposal, and b) this is clearly something that could (and should) be done state-by-state where the political will is sufficient.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:25 amGee, ya think?
J.P. (6e49bf) — 1/9/2015 @ 9:27 amChrist, this is depressing.
Eric in Hollywood (3c9b7f) — 1/9/2015 @ 10:38 amThis also happens with medical costs, and with the cost of housing too.
With anything where the vast majority of people are not paying for it out of pocket, out of more or less current income.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 1/9/2015 @ 10:48 am“Man, people sure are hard to please on the subject of other people’s education.”
Leviticus – I think the issue is that it is hard to get people accept paying for a college education for anybody and everybody when so much of our K-12 system is broken and turning out graduates not qualified to function in the real world. Fix K-12. I have no problems with vocational training or community college, but I have a problem with universal freebies for people with no ability to benefit and the inflation in education costs it creates. Way to miss the point again.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 10:50 am“This also happens with medical costs, and with the cost of housing too.”
Sammy – Also studying, assembling for conferences on and fixing the scourge of global warming. A high cost growth industry in itself.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 10:53 am– Milton Friedman
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 1/9/2015 @ 10:53 amI saw something – slightly changing it – there are 4 ways people might get money that’s not taxed as income:
1) Relatives
2) Transfer payments
3) Subprime or other credit
4) Underground economy (said black market)
You can more generalize it: Friends or relatives; transfer payments; borrowing or credit; underground cash economy.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 1/9/2015 @ 10:55 amat least this program will be totes affordable.
of course, since those are the numbers from the Obola White House, i’m guessing $60 billion will wind up being a very low ball number. but hey, when you’re already 18 trillion or so in debt, that’s just a rounding error, so who cares?
redc1c4 (269d8e) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:03 amanother way to get jobs:
Today’s House Keystone vote 266-153. 28 Dems voted to build pipeline. Let’s pass it on to the other chamber and get it to O’s desk.
elissa (37a15b) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:08 amI always had a thing for the brown sugar, so that wasn’t an option.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:17 am“Way to miss the point again.”
– daleyrocks
All I ever wanted to do was make you proud of me!!
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:33 amwhere Obola will promptly veto it, and Congress will not be able to override, because Demonrats.
kabuki government.
redc1c4 (a6e73d) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:51 amSuper mature. This level of discourse will surely keep Republicans in power for another 100 years.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:52 amOne of my professors told me that over 60% of grant students fail his classes. He assigns a lot of homework—basically every question at the end of each chapter plus a weekly participation in a discussion forum.
The subject came up when I asked him about the poor grammar and appropriateness on some of the comments. Many of the remarks left in the comment section were mostly snark and had little to do with the chapter subject which we were required to write about and use at least three terms in the list of words highlighted at the end of each section. The course subject was The Essentials of Information Systems, and they basically used it as a chat forum.
One student wrote the word easier as easyer, and quicker as quicher.
hadoop (657247) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:53 amI’m sure you were outraged when Bush was referred to as Shrub. Discourse indeed! Pat should make you moderator, then I’m sure the discourse would improve immensely. Uplift and elevate! Sound the trumpets! Hosannas for all!!!
hadoop (657247) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:58 amMy university roommate (years 3 and 4) had the good fortune of being the son of a self-employed person who could hide his income. He got a lot of grants. One of them was called “SEOG” – which we both referred to as “Scott enjoys obtaining grants.” We didn’t even know what it was for.
Col. Haiku – Scott is the bean counter, not me.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 11:59 amhadoop – that is correct.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:01 pmRich Galen calls what’s going on now a vaudeville tour.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:05 pm“All I ever wanted to do was make you proud of me!!”
Leviticus – Try harder, grasshopper!
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:51 pmDoes Obama still have a war going against for-profit trade schools? Some of them are scams, but a lot are not. That war does not make a lot of sense given his position on JC for everyone. Then again, consistency is not a hallmark of this administration.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 12:55 pmThat war against for-profit trade schools – the only kind of school Democrats are alowed to find fault with – wasn’t really being waged by Obama, but by Congressional Democrats.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:08 pm“That war against for-profit trade schools – the only kind of school Democrats are alowed to find fault with – wasn’t really being waged by Obama, but by Congressional Democrats.”
Sammy – You might want to rethink that. Those schools are largely non-unionized.
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/barack-obama-education-for-profit-colleges-104661.html
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:56 pmWow. Tuition costs have really skyrocketed. When I went to a California community college in the early 1980s, there was no tuition. And CSU cost less than $350 per semester.
Shortly after I transferred out, California set community college tuition at $5 per unit, max $50 per semester. Now that community college is $46 per unit, no max. Say $700 per semester with a standard 15 unit load. And that CSU campus tuition is almost $4000 per semester. A student would find it very difficult to pay tuition and live on part time work, as we could back then. College is now only affordable to the poor and the rich. The middle class has been mostly squeezed out of higher education.
David (099e1f) — 1/9/2015 @ 2:40 pmThe family that founded University of Phoenix are billionaires and were big Obama supporters as far as I could tell. Ditto Boxer and Feinstein.
They are good folks, decent and with honorable intent and may not get the breaks a dirty guy like Epstein can… although I have not heard the UP talked down in the news like the attack dogs were loosed, so maybe they’ll be OK.
CC in California has a dismal rate of graduation in 2 years with a transferable AA.
Even if you can stumble through classes and get an AA with solid C+ in accounting, you won’t get into the UC system, so off to Humbolt State to major in economics of the weed industry get solid C+ again and go to work for the IRS audit division… remember whether it is a doctor, lawyer, IRS auditor… someone had to finish last in their class.
I think Obama wants to help the nation embrace mediocrity.
steveg (794291) — 1/9/2015 @ 2:59 pmLeviticus – Just because you disappoint me doesn’t make me love you any less, man.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:20 pmOddly enough, that’s kind of how I feel about America.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:33 pmLet’s hug it out.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:37 pm{hugs} You, me, and America. And a freebie for happyfeet.{/hugs}
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/9/2015 @ 4:43 pm