[guest post by Dana]
In response to the horror in France, cartoonists from around the world have taken to their drawing boards:
Wikileaks’ Julian Assange suggested that in response to the attacks:
The world must now avenge Charlie Hebdo by swiftly republishing all their cartoons. Censorship attacks are a losing move.
Your thoughts on a viable response?
–Dana
Pronounced "Patter-EE-koh"
E-mail: Just use my moniker Patterico, followed by the @ symbol, followed by gmail.com
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Dana (8e74ce) — 1/7/2015 @ 2:34 pmthe twitchy one was very poignant
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/7/2015 @ 2:35 pmhere
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/7/2015 @ 2:37 pmbill donohue on the other hand makes me want to draw a picture of a masturbating nun
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/7/2015 @ 2:41 pmThe pen is mightier than the sword. If the pen is very big and the sword is very small.
I looked up some of the CharlieHebdo cartoons on Google images. They’re pretty disgusting. Like this one. NSFW. http://imworld.aufeminin.com/story/20130224/charlie-hebdo-une-14309_w1000.jpg I’m not shedding any tears for them.
nk (dbc370) — 1/7/2015 @ 2:46 pmGay Patriot has a new name and avitar. He’s getting well deserved props around the internets.
http://twitchy.com/2015/01/07/youre-lhomme-gaypatriot-sticks-it-to-islamist-terrorists-like-a-boss-pic/
elissa (1c7328) — 1/7/2015 @ 2:56 pmFor once I agree with Assange.
Craig Mc (299f38) — 1/7/2015 @ 2:56 pmIf the response to the threats to the moviegoers who saw the SONY movie was making sure it was available, regardless of whether it was really good or not, it would seem like the proper response here should be to make the cartoons universally available – and, because cartoonists have been killed, republishing them at least once every year. This was a power play – and in the end, they are interested in censoring something much more than cartoons.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:08 pmGenerally gutless, not one cartoon linking this to Islamic radicals.
agesilaus (8d6a1c) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:08 pmCurrently taking place: anti-terror raid in Reims for the three suspects.
Dana (8e74ce) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:11 pmHunt the savages down and kill them all before they kill us. True evil – and they are truly evil – must be hunted down and eliminated, by any means necessary.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:12 pmJe Suis Charlie
Mike K (90dfdc) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:15 pmanti-terror raid in Reims for the three suspects.
For God’s sake, don’t put them in Guantanamo ! Obama will release them !
Mike K (90dfdc) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:16 pmWake up and be serious about the threat, arrest or expel jihadists from your countries, or get serious about infiltrating them to “keep your enemies close”
Cartoon campaigns and such just inflame, don’t really accomplish anything, and get innocent people hurt and killed in Muslim countries.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:24 pmIn an interview several years ago now departed Christopher Hitchins had words about terror attacks and journalists, that Michael Totten recalls today.
MJT: (Michael J. Totten) It’s hard to psychoanalyze other people, but I sometimes suspect that blaming Salman Rushdie and Kurt Westergaard, as many writers have, for bringing down the wrath of these maniacs from Somalia and Iran, may be a way of convincing themselves they’ll be safe as long as they don’t cross the same line. Any writer or graphic artist must, at least for a second, think oh fuck, they could come for me if I don’t watch out. They can say to themselves they’ll be fine if they don’t cross that line.
Hitchens: But the line will never stop shifting.
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/christopher-hitchens-today%E2%80%99s-paris-massacre
elissa (1c7328) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:31 pmHotAir says they’ve been captured. Other sources say they’ve been “located” Ace says at least one of them had earlier been arrested in Iraq —–then released.
elissa (1c7328) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:45 pmMike K (90dfdc) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:16 pm
Perhaps the French will reopen Devil’s Island, or at least one of the pits.
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:49 pmCrazy Uncle Joe: Best of Joe Biden during Senate swearing in ceremony
http://commoncts.blogspot.com/2015/01/crazy-uncle-joe-best-of-joe-biden.html
Steve (a5129b) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:51 pmelissa (1c7328) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:45 pm
Bien sûr!
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/7/2015 @ 3:52 pmpublish the cartoons, and anything else that offends the moose slimes, then kill, immediately, any of them who threaten violence on the issue.
take them at their word. eventually, we might find some of those oh so ellusive “moderate” moose slimes i keep being lied to about.
redc1c4 (dab236) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:19 pmis see that, unexpectedly, nk is unclear on how freedom of speech w*rks.
redc1c4 (dab236) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:20 pmDid you click the link in my comment, red? Warning, it does not insult Islam and it is very NSFW.
nk (dbc370) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:26 pmPropaganda is very useful, both to humiliate Muslims and to motivate us “infidels”.
But nothing can replace weapons of war used to kill as many militant Muslims as possible. Kill them and keep killing them until they lose all taste for jihad, until they beg for mercy, until they lynch their preachers of jihad in a bid for mercy.
Oh–and one other thing: terminate Muslim immigration and require full assimilation as a condition for living in the West. Jail or expel all others. If our parents could do it to Nazi sympathizers, we can do it to Islamo-fascists.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:29 pmmuslims are so misunderstood…
mg (31009b) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:29 pmi would love to clue them in on the wonders of Hickory smoked bacon
They say they identified the culrpits. An ID card wa sleft behind in the getaway car. They are two brothers in their 30s and an 18-year man described as homeless or a student.
The brothers have bene on the radar for a long time. One was arreted ion 2005 for recruited people to fight with al Qaeda in Iraq. They are said to have both been in Syria in 2014 (cf Khorasan Group?)
One policeman was executed at point blank range and the murder was videotaped by someone seeking shelter.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:44 pmIslam is death. There are many Muslims who would never participate in this, but on the other hand, they would never stand up to their not insignificant number co-religionists who would do such vile acts. The West has to FINALLY say if you do not want to live in the tolerant West, GO BACK. We won’t send that message under Obama, perhaps the next president will. And going forward enough Islamic immigration. Let’s get the hell out of the Middle East and let them keep make a mess of their societies. If we aren’t there it’s not our problem. Let them kill each other, but stay the hell away form us.
To quote “The Godfather”(in admittedly a disgusting racist context), “They’re animals anyway; let them lose their souls”.
Bugg (f0dbc7) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:44 pmWe will be told, by the liberal apologists, doubtlessly including our own esteemed President, that the assailants were not really representative of the good and peaceful Muslims in France and around the world, but just the kook fringe, and, not to worry, they will be caught and justice will be done.
The Israelis have learned, the hard way, that while not all Palestinians are Hamas, Hamas uses the entire Palestinian population as a support network; the Palestinian population which are not Hamas still enable Hamas.
In World War II, we knew that most of the German civilians were not Nazis and were not combatants, but we also knew that they enabled the Nazis and supplied the Werhmacht, and that it was both necessary and militarily efficient to degrade the support systems for the Third Reich’s soldiers in the field: the soldiers who had no food or weapons were not soldiers who were as much of a threat to our soldiers.
Until the Moslem populations stop enabling the terrorists, we must shun them, we must show them no respect, we must show them no courtesy, we should do nothing to make their lives easier, and we must treat them as exactly what they are: a support system for terrorism if not necessarily the terrorists themselves. We must profile them, we must be alert for any violations of the law, and prosecute to the full extent of the law even the slightest violation. They must not be welcome!
The historian Dana (1b79fa) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:54 pmdon’t get carried away Mr. Dana
happyfeet (831175) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:58 pmThe historian Dana (1b79fa) — 1/7/2015 @ 4:54 pm
Paraphrasing many a Hollywood movie:
The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim!
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:02 pmdamn you people is dark
happyfeet (831175) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:03 pmclose down and then burn to the ground 12 French mosques … and pave over the rubble …
KaiserDerden (faa0ee) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:05 pmHad a guy I worked with in high school at a local fast food joint, and a good friend in grammar school. Went to a bachelor party with a death friend one fine September Saturday. They all went to work one Tuesday morning and never came home. The former 2 were FDNY, the 3rd worked in the WTC. And they weren’t alone; that will make you dark about Islam.
Now that justified hunting and killing Bin Laden. The rest of it…I dunno.In fact based on what has happened since that should have been it. “Nation building” under Bush and Mulsim happy talk outreach under obama are both a joke.
But it’s clear to me that Islam is a death cult, group psychosis on a grand scale, awfulness. It deserves to be mocked. Heck mocked should be the least of it.
Bugg (f0dbc7) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:15 pmI’d rather be carried away and dark than be terrorized by a muslim, happyfeet.
mg (31009b) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:24 pmMy prescription is a massive dose of vitamin B-52 applied to the homeland. Repeated in daily doses until the animals are unable to shoot and kill and rape and behead.
f1guyus (9cbd15) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:27 pmThere are better hills to kill on. Warning, very NSFW. http://imworld.aufeminin.com/story/20130224/charlie-hebdo-une-14309_w1000.jpg (In case you missed it the first time.)
nk (dbc370) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:28 pmyawn… unpopular speech is the speech most in need of protection.
once you’re okay with censorship, the inevitable end is no speech at all.
since you apparently have no problem with that, why don’t you just practice what you preach and STFU?
after all, i’m sure you’ve offended someone here at least once.
redc1c4 (b340a6) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:33 pmRegarding the perpetrators of Islamic terrorist attacks, Obama keeps using that word “few”. I do not think it means what He thinks it means.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:34 pmwe should vaporize Medina, then tell the moose slime world that the next attack will disappear Mecca from the face of the earth, as well as resulting in the Temple Mount being turned over exclusively to the Jews.
lets see them practice their religion of pieces with no place to pray at or make a pilgrimage to.
redc1c4 (b340a6) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:35 pmMr Feet wrote:
We must stay within the law on this, and I wouldn’t intern Muslims the way we treated the Nesei during World War II, but the entire Muslim population should be treated as suspect, by law enforcement as far as legally possible, and much moreso by those of us not in law enforcement and thus legally able to do so. Having a Muslim friend is, to me, little different from being civil to an abortionist.
The serious Dana (1b79fa) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:35 pmPeople aren’t supposed to be killed over bad taste or provocative printed material. Sued maybe, fired maybe, shunned maybe, but not killed over it . nk, you’re coming awfully close to the “bitch had it coming” defense. You know?
elissa (1c7328) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:40 pmIf you shop at a convenience store or gas station owned by Muslims, you should take your business elsewhere. If the owner is not Muslim, but has employees who are, you should inform the owner that you will not do business there as long as he employs them.
This is perfectly legal! It would be illegal for the owner of a public accommodation to refuse to sell a legal item or service to a customer simply because the customer is Muslim, but we are perfectly free to choose not to patronize any place we wish.
The very serious Dana (1b79fa) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:40 pmOne way to get back at such perpetrators and their apologists is for the history of Islam’s founder, Mohammed, to be fully aired, fully publicized, full circulated. I don’t think the average person in America and elsewhere truly knows just how vengeful and murderous Mohammed really was. IOW, let’s stop with the bullcrap of the idea that Islam is a “religion of peace,” be it from a Nidal-Hasanized Republican like George W Bush, at least on the day after 9-11, or most certainly a leftist moral relativist like Barry Obama.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:46 pmporc-craignant douchebags
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:49 pmjammie-clad F*cks their women
are beasts of burden
nk-
That image to me is disgusting. And these guys still had every right to post it, disseminate it and not be subject to anything more than some sharp discussion and verbal disagreement.I accept that not everyone is a believing Christian, and some like these people mock Christianity. They nonetheless are entitled to do so no matter how reprehensible they may be to me and others. It’s crude, but I admit it to giggling and laughing out loud to “The Life of Brian” and a good deal of Monty Python’s various depictions of the Almighty, as well as Mel Brooks’ depiction of the last Supper in “History of the World”. If you don’t like something don’t look at it .Suspect for most Christians after a moment of disgust they would be inclined to part for the people that made that. You have no right to stop people from producing words, images and arts you disagree with within the law. The worry has been Obama would so elevate Islam in law.
Bugg (f0dbc7) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:50 pmGreetings:
Let me see. Publish some cartoons ??? Mmmm. Crowd into some public spaces ??? Mmmm. Make another “Cemetery without Bordes” ???
Release the #Hashtags ??? Mmmm. Listen to our Judas goat leaders explain our phobias and misbehaviors ??? Mmmm.
Well, geez, those things have always worked before, so let’s get started.
On the other hand, though there’s that millstone called Islam, which is nothing more than the globalization of 7th Century A.D. (if I may) predatory Arab tribal culture under a thin veneer of religion. And if your plan doesn’t include constraining, undermining, or eradicating Islam, you don’t have a plan. what you have is a hope.
The West is being “groomed” the way a pedophile grooms his targeted victim, into Islam’s beloved dhimmi status. Submission is what the word means and what the “religion” is all about.
11B40 (6abb5c) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:56 pmSadly, one of my favorite local restaurants is owned and operated by a Lebanese Christian family; they are frequently targeted by anti-Muslim demonstrators — and harassed by some Muslims!
As far as the terrorists, and those involved, … preferably they will disappear without notice or explanation, never to be seen again. Or arrested, tried, presumably convicted, and some of the more horrific deaths in the Judge Dee novels could be attempted.
htom (4ca1fa) — 1/7/2015 @ 5:59 pmThe AP, unclear on its censorship rules today, pixelated the Charlie Hebdo cartoons, claiming:
However, the vigilant Washington Examiner pointed out that no, that’s not correct as the AP still carries the image of Piss Christ, Andres Serrano’s controversial work:
Since the WE post, the AP removed the offensive Serrano work.
Just be consistent. And don’t be hypocritical. However, if you want to be consistent and don’t want to be hypocritical, there is clearly risk involved. We’ll see how much risk media outlets are willing to take.
Dana (8e74ce) — 1/7/2015 @ 6:02 pmThe idea of Islam being a religion of peace is in a circa 1885 book (!) I have (republished in the 1920s) by Lady Katie Magnus and revised by M. Friedlander (back around 1886)
The book is Outlines of Jewish History B.C. 586 to C.E. 1885. It was republished after World War I, in 1924 “with a few minor alterations.”
On page 114 she links the word Islam to the same root as the Hebrew Shalom “which denotes soundness, or a perfect and unimpaired condition. Peace is another rendering of the word, and expresses a very similar meaning, since ‘peace’ would naturally ensue from a sound and healthy state of things.”
On page 115: “Mahomed was never able to count the Jews among his converts. From among the Jews of Arabia he met, indeed, at first with contempt and opposition. They would not grasp the hand taht held the Koran, and so the other, the sword-arm, was lifted up against them. There was some fighting, and much bad feeling, at first between the Jews and the followers of Mahomed. During the lifetime of the Prophet some Jews were oppressed and some were exiled, and some were forced to serve under the banner of Islam. But after his death, and as the tide of Mahomedan conquest swept on, the Jews found cause to rejoice in the more tolerant treatment they experienced from the rulers who adopted he faith of Islam.”
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/7/2015 @ 6:06 pmWhere did the Sephardic Jews go when the Inquisition expelled them from Spain, Sammy? More specifically, where did they go where they were allowed to settle unharmed and without being forced to convert to their hosts’ religion? http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/expulsion.html
nk (dbc370) — 1/7/2015 @ 6:22 pmThe Left must be convinced that Muslim terrorists are actually conservative Republicans. That’s the only way they’ll change their tune regarding Islam.
Tom (abb065) — 1/7/2015 @ 6:24 pmthe Jews found cause to rejoice in the more tolerant treatment…
They remind me of the Jews in Hitler’s Germany, but in the years before the Holocaust. The ones who were ignorant of the full implications of Mein Kampf or, worse of all, were the type to fall for the idea of “…but he kept the trains running on time!!”
Mark (c160ec) — 1/7/2015 @ 6:40 pmAs much as I hate
nk (dbc370) — 1/7/2015 @ 6:50 pmto defendGermans, Mark, the Holocaust was an aberration for Germany. Unlike its neighbors, Poland, Ukraine, Russia et al, Germany had no history of pogroms or organized anti-Semitism prior to the rise of Nazism. But then, Nazism was an aberration of aberrations.how about just calling him Mohammed, peas be upon him?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/7/2015 @ 6:54 pmIt will soon be known as “gettin’ yer Kroft on”… http://pagesix.com/2015/01/07/60-minutes-host-steve-kroft-exposed-in-nasty-affair/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:13 pm40
kishnevi (a5d1b9) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:17 pmAnd that is how the Holocaust started…If you really want to go down that, you are no better than the ones you condemn.
Charlie Hebdo published vile cartoons, insulting all religions. Because they are victims does not mean they are saints or heroes.
Meanwhile, to amplify the original post…
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/heartbreaking-cartoons-from-artists-in-response-to-the-ch?s=mobile
Some of the cartoons were already linked in previous comments.
kishnevi (3719b7) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:19 pmwe should vaporize Medina
Perhaps, red, this is one reason your candidates never win.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:26 pmWonder what Marine Le Pen is suggesting.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:30 pmPer Hot Air, CNN and NBC have caved. Directive for CNN employees no Charlie Hebdo cartoons. NBC, nothing insensitive…
Dana (8e74ce) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:33 pmRight now, Le Pen is making Hollande and others pretty nervous. Her party has been having record numbers of supporters show up at rallies and she didn’t mince words today: ““Time’s up for denial and hypocrisy,” Le Pen, who has railed against immigration, said in a video posted on her party’s website. “The absolute rejection of Islamic fundamentalism must be proclaimed loudly and clearly.””
Dana (8e74ce) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:38 pmthe Holocaust was an aberration for Germany.
nk, what both baffles and appalls me are descriptions of Jews in 1930’s Germany being oblivious to or perhaps willfully ignorant of just how ruthless and dangerous Hitler was. I bet most of those were people of ideological background similar to the fools at, for example, Brandeis University, who not only love to placate or downplay the extremism of Islamcism, but, even worse, last year silenced one of its major critics, Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
And that is how the Holocaust started…
To equate Dana’s comments with the origins of Nazism is a form of moral equivalency. I’ve seen such a response from people of all ideological stripes — left and right — but liberal biases seem to incubate that particular type of reaction to an even greater degree.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:42 pmDana,
As I read it the 2017 election there will be Sarkozy vs Le Pen.
Kevin M (25bbee) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:44 pmA collage of Charlie Hebdo, published in a German paper. Resolution is rather poor, and some of them seem to be NSW…
kishnevi (294553) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:44 pmhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6xq3MUCAAA7ulV.jpg:large
Today’s french political rundown:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-07/le-pen-may-benefit-as-magazine-attack-exposes-french-divisions.html
Kevin M (25bbee) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:45 pm61,
Agreed.
Dana (8e74ce) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:51 pmMark, that is how the Holocaust started, with the sort of boycotts, random violence, and then the Nuremberg laws. The actual genocide waited about five years, until Kristallnacht.
And since everything in those five years was a repeat of things inflicted on Jews in previous eras of Christian Europe, it was easy to believe things would be no worse than thise previous persecutions.
Moreover, most Jews did not expect how supportive of Hitler the non Nazi Germans were.
kishnevi (294553) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:51 pmThis may be on interest. The gentleman who posted this comment lives in Paris..
kishnevi (3719b7) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:14 pmhttp://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23899.msg859501.html#msg859501
And a wider deeper view of CH on Vox.
kishnevi (294553) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:15 pmThe Muslims I know play soccer with me and about forty other people on Johnson Field in the heart of Albuquerque. They stop at dusk to say their prayers. Other than that? They play soccer. They laugh, and they joke, and they live their lives. Like everybody else.
They aren’t the enemy. Ignorance is the enemy, in all of its forms.
Leviticus (c1d138) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:16 pmSorry…the link I meant to put in the previous comment: http://www.vox.com/2015/1/7/7507883/charlie-hebdo-explained-covers
kishnevi (3719b7) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:16 pmThe proper response is for every journalist to post those cartoons! And the papers and the cops and the politicians to tell the Islamists to sod off, just the way they did in the ’30s when a cartoonist in Britain named David Low drew a likeness of Mo in his newspaper. The British imam at that time had to go to India to gin up the riot he wanted so desperately. Back then, Western civ believed in itself. Do we now?
Once you give in, you lose.
And I never thought I would say this, but kudos to the LA Times. They have a video about Hebdo on their front page and they show many of the cartoons!
Patricia (5fc097) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:18 pmKishnevi, if the NAACP, NARAL or Green Peace were organizing a boycott, would you also characterize that as “that is how the Holocaust started!”? Was the boycott of Chick-Fil-A in 2014 a harbinger of “OMG! Kristallnacht up ahead!”?
Your ideological predisposition is greatly affecting the way you’ve characterized Dana’s comments.
The use of boycotts goes back a long time and has been a tactic of activists from both the left and right. That’s why it’s ridiculous to assume the implementation of a boycott guarantees something more sinister or radical will ensue.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:27 pmThey aren’t the enemy. Ignorance is the enemy, in all of its forms.
Leviticus, I wonder if you’d be equally — equally (and be honest now) — as enthusiastic in our description of the people you play soccer with if they were rightwing fundamentalist Christians who, you had suddenly discovered, were planning to protest a Gay Day parade?
Mark (c160ec) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:33 pmIgnorance of things like the following certainly should be described as the enemy:
Mark (c160ec) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:41 pm0% of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were killed by Christians offended by their depictions of Jesus.
100% of Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were killed by Mulsims offended by their depictions of Mohammed.
The same ratios apply to firebombings of Charlie Hebdo, assassinations of filmmakers in the Netherlands, fatwas on prize-winning authors, etc.
Gabriel Hanna (64d1cf) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:53 pmI wonder what the reaction in Greece will be this outrage. The lived under the muslim heel for centuries. With their love of government control, the promise of pensions, and the presumed safety that follows, it could break either way. The question for these prospective pensioners will be whether they will be the slaves of the Germans or the Turks. They could choose otherwise, but that will require a degree of self sufficiency that has yet to be demonstrated in recent times.
It is also remarkable to me that Americans can be so stupid regarding the muslim threat. We did not build a fleet of oversized frigates as the first act of our Navy for nothing. And the cowardice and duplicity that characterize our State Department to this day was amply demonstrated in the treatment of the Barbary War heros in the aftermath.
If the the above is a mystery, try Googling “Halls of Tripoli”. To further your education, google “Jannisaries”.
But these appeals to logic and history will largely miss my mark since I suspect that most committed progressives will have aborted all male fetuses for the last several decades, and so the fate of a male offspring will be of little conern to our elites. But then again, the fate of female muslims is not a whole lot better than that of nannies or ewes.
nk, if something is not to your taste, don’t eat it.
bobathome (348c8a) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:54 pmDana advocates boycotting Muslims because they are Muslims, no qualification as to which Muslims are good or bad, or what a Muslim needs to do to escape boycotting. That is how the Holocaust started, quite literally. (Apparently Dana thinks there are no good Muslims.) It is a far different matter from boycotting Chick FilaA because the owner opposed gay marriage.
kishnevi (294553) — 1/7/2015 @ 8:55 pmKishnevi,
To prevent confusion, would you please use other Dana’s full handle in this thread: Very Serious Dana. Thanks.
Dana (8e74ce) — 1/7/2015 @ 9:01 pmWill do so. Besides, East Coaster that I am, it is time for me to hit the hay.
kishnevi (294553) — 1/7/2015 @ 9:11 pmMy real name is J. Smith, so I have experience with name confusion. But it could be worse. The J is for Jeffrey, not James or John.
“Mark, that is how the Holocaust started, with the sort of boycotts, random violence, and then the Nuremberg laws.”
kishnevi – The Holocaust started with Jews killing, raping and committing acts of violence against people who satirized their religion? Seriously?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/7/2015 @ 9:17 pmIt is a far different matter from boycotting Chick FilaA because the owner opposed gay marriage.
So when it comes to boycotts, it’s a matter of determining whether a Muslim is good or bad?
One can say it’s also a matter of boycotting the owner of a large company who opposes gay marriage in a vociferous, aggressive, inflammatory manner compared with the owner of a large company who opposes gay marriage in a personal, principled, generally private manner, or the way the owner of Chick-Fil-A dealt with the issue. So, in effect, Chick-Fil-A can be characterized as a member of the “religion” of anti-SSM who is good, and, therefore, the people who boycotted his business could be analogized to the Nazis who boycotted Jewish-owned stores in 1930s Germany.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/7/2015 @ 10:00 pmCan I be anti the murderous Islamic terrorists without being pro Charlie Hebdo? Or maybe a better way to put it might be to say that although I support freedom of speech/press, I reject much of Charlie Hebdo’s publications as being at best repulsive and at worst grossly pornographic. As for me, Je ne suis pas Charlie.
What happened in Paris was sickening and reprehensible. I hope they catch the ignorant thugs who did it. But frankly, I disagree with the idea that every journalist should reprint all of those cartoons. I don’t believe that would help make the world a better place. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.
Terrie VanB (011fb1) — 1/7/2015 @ 10:12 pmI used to play soccer against muslims too and enjoyed the treat of watching an all muslim team get 2 red cards for fighting… with each other.
They had one guy who didn’t think Americans could play who was yelling insults at me and every time he’d say “**** you” to me in his accent, I’d pretend not to understand and ask his team mates who spoke better english to help me out because I didn’t speak arabic. They came even more unhinged and all start telling me ” he is saying**** you” and the ref is laying out cards for cursing me, and then they start fighting amongst themselves… Some of them had a shorter fuse than the Persian teams or the Hondurans, which was saying a lot.
The Persians were another team that got so mad at each other they couldn’t play anymore… I’d jog by and tell their striker that if selfish number so and so would’ve passed them the ball it was a sure goal. “wow man, you’d have a hat trick by now for sure…” of course they were down 5, but with the game won, it was fun to mentally unravel their loosely knitted emotions because they’d been ass*****” for about 80 minutes and I was tired of the late foul nonsense I’d had to deal with all game long. My experience with muslim soccer teams and persian teams was that they were worse cheap foul artists than the Hondurans.. the only time I’ve ever seen a set piece where I’m in the wall covering my nuts and some bitter honduran stomps my calf and then another trucks the wall. The guy taking the kick fires away errantly and hits us and then all the guys on their team crash for goal and just start kicking people… all this while the ref is blowing his whistle (like they care) so it’s saying a lot to put the muslim teams on par with the hondurans
One of the things that will stop muslims from overcoming the world is how easy it is to get them fighting amongst themselves. Absolutely drives them crazy that their prophet doesn’t help them win, whereas I don’t expect Jesus to help me win a *bleeping* club soccer game down in *bleeping* Whittier Narrows because my religion is “better” than theirs. They don’t handle coming in second to others well
steveg (794291) — 1/7/2015 @ 10:18 pmI know I was being a dick, but it really was great trash talk entertainment… not due to any high degree of difficulty, but due to the absolutely spectacular meltdown… a pushing, spitting, punching freakout.
i talk about how we should respond. You guys probably would guess it.
Its not a cartoon flipping the bird to terrorists or depicting a terrorist versus pens or pencils, although I admit the 9-11 one is good. that’s all nice, but if you really want to push back and honor the courage of Charlie Hebdo’s editors, if you want to make sure they didn’t die in vain, you have to do what they did. Even publishing their cartoons is not as important as generating new ones.
Just the other day, Kirby Delauter threatened to sue anyone who used his name without permission and we all knew the correct response: use his name alot more without permission. Someone tells you that you are not allowed to do what you have a God-given right to do, the correct response is to do it, do it often and keep doing it until he realizes he can’t stop you. The only difference between Delauter’s threats and these is the severity of the threat–being sued v. being murdered. But that only changes how much courage is needed to make the appropriate response: it doesn’t change what that response must be.
Anyway, i talk more about that, and i share my latest filing in the Kimberlin case, here: http://allergic2bull.blogspot.com/2015/01/confronting-terrorists-opposed-to.html And yes, say some other things that are likely to be of interest to long-time readers.
Aaron "Worthing" Walker (4a2e91) — 1/7/2015 @ 10:23 pmGood to see you back Aaron.
Publish the cartoons and any others with Mo in em. Screw the whiners. Mo was a pedo. It’s a fact of history. Deal with it.
NJRob (904e37) — 1/7/2015 @ 11:30 pmanyone silly enough to play soccer deserves whatever they get on the field.
redc1c4 (269d8e) — 1/7/2015 @ 11:31 pm46-
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/7/2015 @ 11:34 pmDana, the contemporary Western Media are not exactly sterling pillars of courage.
As evidence, I give you Eason Jordan of CNN.
Mo-Ham-head was a child molester, a bandit and a mass murderer.
anyone offended by the truth is hereby cordially invited to kiss the bacon infused sweat off my fourth point of contact.
physically attacking me for telling the truth will give you a chance to die for the perv, and the attendant express lane trip to hell. John Browning is G*d, not allah.
redc1c4 (269d8e) — 1/7/2015 @ 11:34 pmI agree. Ignorance is the enemy. The kind of ignorance that would flow from, say, assuming you’ve learned anything at all about Islam from playing soccer with a few Muslims in Albuquerque.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/7/2015 @ 11:42 pmHaving allowed this to percolate within me (and acknowledging that I do not cartoon worth diddly), what I would love to see this country doing is going the rest of the way to full independence from Middle East oil, all the way to being able to undercut any and all Islam-controlled/ruled countries which supply oil around this planet …
Drill, baby, drill ! Until any and all muslim oil suppliers can no longer sell their oil, and even have difficulty giving it away … take away their ability to fund any terrorist group anywhere … (the fact that the same technique sets limits upon folk like Putin is a bonus) …
Thoughts ? Comments ?
Alastor (2e7f9f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:12 amWhat’s this crazy talk from al-Sissi?
http://www.ivpressonline.com/news/apgeneral/from-egypt-s-leader-an-ambitious-call-for-reform-in/article_acb16e22-c85f-55b4-a928-39c55c9adcdf.html
How dare this guy say that the Muslim world is a source of destruction! It’s a religion of peace. It is THE religion of peace.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/11/another-nondenominational-beheading.php
Ignore that further crazy talk from the nutcases at Powerline. And from the Quran. What do the guys from Powerline, and Allah himself, know about Islam? Nothing. Obama has proclaimed Islam the religion least associated with beheadings. And Leviticus plays soccer with some Muslims who have never, not even once, tried to behead him or detonate a suicide vest on the field.
What more do you need to know about Islam?
I’m sick and tired of these damned Middle Easterners beeotchin’ about Islam, clearly a subject they don’t know anything about. We need to put our top men on it and correct the situation PDQ.
Top. Men.
Red-blooded American experts to set the Muslim world straight about Islam.
Perhaps if Joe Biden is done lecturing that font of misinformation, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, about the true nature of Islam (she brought that clitorectomy on herself, doncha know) he can go lecture al-Sissi about how he doesn’t know his Islam from a hole in the ground.
Islam is a religion of peace. It’s perfect. And something that is perfect doesn’t need to be transformed. Only something that is inherently evil, like the US, needs to be transformed. Fundamentally transformed.
And if Biden isn’t available perhaps Leviticus can get the contract to tell al-Sissi how nobody knows squat about Islam unless they’ve played soccer with some Muslims in New Mexico.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:14 amIf they wanted to show defiance and solidarity, they should have drawn
a Muslim mocking cartoon.
Most didn’t. Just as most press outlets haven’t shown the cartoons; fear.
Terrorism works. If it didn’t no one would try it. It works when it
changes (even a tiny bit) the targets normal activities and responses.
The US changed after 9/11 and the terrorists won. Osama may be dead but
he killed the US before he died which was his goal.
Islam may be a so called religion that is abhorrent but they’re winning.
And it’s proven every time some DHS peon puts their hand down a child’s
pants or makes a disabled person crawl or makes people wanting to fly
surrender innocuous items for seizure.
We’re no longer the same nation we were on 9/11 and it’s not for the better.
jakee308 (f0aa61) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:36 amredc1c4 – I love you man.
mg (31009b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:05 amOur Windy City barrister wrote:
Other than that, Mrs Kennedy, how was Dallas?
The thoroughly snarky Dana (f6a568) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:22 amkishnevi wrote:
The Jews were loyal German citizens, not harming anyone; far too many Muslims in the West are providing support for the terrorists.
The thoroughly snarky Dana (f6a568) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:30 amMark wrote:
In his novel, War and Remembrance, Herman Wouk described it as the will not to believe. Many of the Jews of Europe simply couldn’t believe what was happening, because it went so far beyond their cultural experience.
Even the forced removal of Jews for “resettlement” had a history, as Tsarist Russia had uprooted the Jews and forced them to settle in the “Pale.” How many of those Jews rounded up by the Germans, and crammed in those boxcars, thought that their eventual destination was going to be resettlement in some harsh, but nevertheless livable land? After all, that had already happened to their people before!
Adolf Hitler was only one man, and even if the Jews realized how thoroughly evil he was, it wasn’t Der Führer loading the Jews onto the trains; they were herded on by ordinary, decent, normal Germans. To have realized what was happening, the Jews would have had to have realized that thousands upon thousands of perfectly ordinary Germans, people who had been their friends and acquaintances and customers and neighbors, had all turned into little Hitlers themselves.
The literate Dana (f6a568) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:42 amright on -The literate Dana
mg (31009b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:48 amThe Final Solution came in 1942. The boycott of Jewish businesses came in 1933.
nk who reads history as well as fiction (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:06 amthe slope is slippery this is why you need good boots
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:20 amI’ve already been out there, happyfeet. Wear three pairs of pants and all your coats. It must be 30 below with wind chill.
nk who almost froze in three minutes (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:24 amit’s supposed to snow later too i think
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:42 amAnd the winds will pick up, even worse than they are now. Be careful out there.
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:46 amack
i could work from home but now it feels like a challenge
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:49 amWhen you walk, keep your legs straight, that way the air cushion between your pants and leg is maintained; if you bend your knees they get cold every time they hit the inside of your pants.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:10 amI remember this from waiting for the school bus at -74 wind chill.
I don’t want to quibble nor do I wish to spout platitudes. However, it’s important to keep in mind that although Adolph Hitler was ruthless and dangerous, and the National Socialist Worker’s Party (NAZI) was full of opportunistic thugs, enthusiastic supporters, unquestioning enablers, and willing accomplices, ordinary German citizens – soldiers and civilians alike – never all turned into little Hitlers themselves. Ordinary German citizens dutifully followed their elected leaders, they respected the institutions of government, they paid their taxes, obeyed the law, and they went to church on Sunday mornings. Just like most Americans do today.
Most ordinary Germans lived lives most remarkable like ordinary people elsewhere in Europe – just normal people leading ordinary lives – working, playing, raising families, and hoping for a better future, and they too were victimized by Hitler, not in the same way or to the same extent as Jews, Gypsies, and the mentally and physically infirm, but victims in the end nevertheless.
Time allows to learn from the German experience. Like them we find ourselves following a leader bent on imposing his own vision of the future, a gifted orator able to sway the masses with his words, a leader who was elected to the highest office in the land (despite a lack of experience and a sketchy past) promising a glorious future (a future now revealed as decidedly at odds with our history and traditions), a leader firmly ensconced in power supported and encouraged not only by all the resources a great national political party can provide but also by an obsequious professional media functioning as his personal propaganda army and operating with more efficiently and centralized control then even Herr Goebbels was able to imagine – a leader now grown arrogant, capricious, (ruthless) and dangerous, one actively perverting the institutions of government to stifle criticism and to punish opposition.
As we grapple with the particulars of our predicament, keep in mind Hitler’s deep insight into the dynamics of violence:
PS: Here’s a few quotes from Herr Goebbels:
ropelight (bb7409) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:21 am51 nk “Unlike its neighbors, Poland, Ukraine, Russia et al, Germany had no history of pogroms or organized anti-Semitism prior to the rise of Nazism.”
But Germany did have a history of racial supremacism, which was fully apparent in the First World War. My favorite concise example is the book “Headquarters Nights”, by an American humanitarian aid worker stationed in occupied Belgium who dined regularly with German officers. The Germans were universally racial supremacists who believed that the superior German race had a right and duty to conquer and subjugate and enslave inferior races such as the French, Belgians, etc.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:22 am5 nk “I looked up some of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons on Google images. They’re pretty disgusting…I’m not shedding any tears for them.”
If a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist were to become a crack whore, he would still be morally superior to the holiest mullah.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:24 amOops. That was supposed to be …”holiest” mullah. Never, never, never imply that there is anything truly holy about Islam.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:26 amtoday i was just trying not to fall down Mr. Dr.
turns out Docs aren’t very good on ice
maybe since they started making them all in china they’re just not as good
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:42 amFor all we know, the attackers were responding to the cartoon I linked. Jesus is also considered a holy prophet in Islam, just not “The Last Prophet”.
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:44 am23 mg “muslims are so misunderstood…i would love to clue them in on the wonders of Hickory smoked bacon”
Bullets smeared with bacon? Funeral shrouds made of bacon?
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:47 am“Leviticus plays soccer with some Muslims who have never, not even once, tried to behead him or detonate a suicide vest on the field.”
– Steve57
Well, with that in mind, can you at least make an exception for them when you guys decide to start monitoring people for their religion, like Dana is suggesting, or incinerating people for their religion, like red is suggesting?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:47 amThe Dana of Many Names, that is.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:48 am110 nk “For all we know, the attackers were responding to the cartoon I linked. Jesus is also considered a holy prophet in Islam”
Enough with the lying sophistry, please. We all know what cartoons muslims have been rioting and killing over, and they all had to do with Mo.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:48 am#105, pst324, …a right and duty to conquer and subjugate and enslave inferior races…
Sounds like yesterday’s NAZIs and today’s Islamics are singing from the same hymnal.
ropelight (bb7409) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:53 am1. Islam is morally reprehensible because Muslims kill their perceived enemies.
2. I now perceive Muslims to be my enemies.
3. Let’s kill them!
[Logic ™]
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:54 amI feel sorry for the two policemen and the janitor. For the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists, here’s some Clint Eastwood philosophy. You guys do like Clint Eastwood, don’t you? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vw7d6LSWmk
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:56 amthe problem as with other instances, is in avoiding the activities of the most militant elements of a community, the entire community is put at risk, through evasions like workplace violence,
narciso (ee1f88) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:04 am“Sounds like yesterday’s NAZIs and today’s Islamics are singing from the same hymnal.”
As a matter of fact, the historical record shows that they inspired each other, and aided each other.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:09 amI’ve already been out there, happyfeet. Wear three pairs of pants and all your coats. It must be 30 below with wind chill.
nk who almost froze in three minutes (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:24 am
Plan #2: Move to California
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:34 amkishnevi (294553) — 1/7/2015 @ 7:51 pm
Not necessarily, and there had been pretty bad things in Russia under the Czars, and in the Ukraine and other places after the war, around 1919, and in addition things weren’t really that safe for Jews in Germany in 1933 – many were beaten, arrested, and even killed, but there were two things:
1) It stopped and started, and even got a little better, like before the Olympics. So there was the thought things would stabilize, i.e., Hitler had gone as far as he was interested in going. At least they could hope. Maybe even someone was obscure enough, they wouldn’t bother.
2) There was the thought Hitler was constrained by the other powers in Europe, or that the regime would be overthrown after a while. (although people had made that same mistake about Russia)
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:35 amFor Global Warming Believers*: Today’s expected high +14; normal high +32; record high +63 (1965).
*Not to be confused with GWB, the 43rd President.
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:38 am“We strongly condemn these kind of acts and we expect the authorities to take the most appropriate measures. Our community is stunned by what just happened. It’s a whole section of our democracy that is seriously affected. This is a deafening declaration of war. Times have changed, and we are now entering a new era of confrontation.”
– The Grand Mosque of Paris
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:45 amThe Union of Islamic Organizations of France also responded on its website, writing: “The UOIF condemns in the strongest terms this criminal attack, and these horrible murders. The UOIF expresses its deepest condolences to the families and all the employees of Charlie Weekly.”
Hassen Chalghoumi, imam of the Drancy mosque in Paris’s Seine-Saint-Denis suburb, spoke with France’s BFM TV and condemned the attackers, saying, “Their barbarism has nothing to do with Islam.”
“I am extremely angry,” Chalghoumi said. “These are criminals, barbarians. They have sold their soul to hell. This is not freedom. This is not Islam and I hope the French will come out united at the end of this.”
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:46 amSurviving staffers intend to publish a shorter than usual issue next week with a massive press run
kishnevi (3719b7) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:46 amhttp://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-staff-publish-next-week-1m-print-run
Good on them. Wish it was more than after the fact lip service.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:47 amISIS? Those guys, I lean more toward incineration.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:47 amExcept for calling it a criminal act, those were appropriate statements.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:50 amfun fact – I have a friend whose wife is Iranian. One of her ex-employers is a firm called “ISIS.” She has had to slightly alter her résumé. 🙂
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:51 am2014 warmest year on record.
This is why it’s called global warming, not “what’s the weather in LaGrange today.”
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:54 am“We strongly condemn these kind of acts…”
Because those Muslim leaders are content to conquer and subjugate France more slowly.
Even as we argue on this blog, French authorities continue to cede control of neighborhoods to Islamists.
Moderate Islam is a myth.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:54 amSteve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:14 am
Obama didn’t say that.
I think he meant to say it was the furthest thing from Islam, which isn’t precisely correct.
A possible problem with that interpretation is that that way his wording is clumsy. Obama could also have meant that be-headings was the feature least associated with Islam (as compared with other forms of execution, or perhaps other things Islam is noted for, like daytime fasting in the month of Ramadan or a pilgrimage to Mecca.)
If he meant to say that be-headings are not a typical form of execution, that’s wrong, because saudi Arabia does that:
http://www.newsweek.com/2014/10/24/when-it-comes-beheadings-isis-has-nothing-over-saudi-arabia-277385.html
Although he could have some support, in that Original al Qaeda ® ™ has made opposition to beheadings a point of difference with ISIS/ISIL/Daesh/”the” Islamic State/IS/the caliphate/ whatchamacallit.
If he meant to say it is not the thing Islam is most noted for, that could be correct.
I don’t think that he meant at all to say that be-headings were more associated with something other than Islam.
And Leviticus plays soccer with some Muslims who have never, not even once, tried to behead him or detonate a suicide vest on the field.
Well, that means something.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:55 amOnce again Lord of the Flies aids and abets the Adversary.
The GOP response? Invite this Son of Lies to address us, his quarry, feted at the State of the Union Address.
This, in the absence of any opposition to Evil, itself constitutes treason, foul and deliberate.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:56 am@Steve57
You are misreading what the Egyptian president said.
al-Sissi was saying that something had changed about the Islam that was being preached in recent years, or rather decades.
http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2015/01/03/egypts-al-sisi-makes-extraordinary-speech-on-islam/
He’s not talking about the Koran!!
But rather, other stuff, written in the 20th century.
He wouldn’t say “sacralized over the years, to the point that departing from them has become almost impossible” about Islam’s basic texts, or anything over 1,000 years old.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:56 am122. It’s all that coal they are burning in China, spewing soot into the atmosphere, that’s lowering the temperature.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:58 am130. Poster boy for Depends shows his work.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:00 amObama has proclaimed Islam the religion least associated with beheadings. And Leviticus plays soccer with some Muslims who have never, not even once, tried to behead him or detonate a suicide vest on the field.
The left rationalized away the ruthlessness and extremism of Communism and the Iron Curtain because, presumably, there was, well, free healthcare! a sympathy for the common working man! an extensive cradle-to-grave program of welfare! For the left to now be rationalizing away the ruthlessness and extremism of Islam is based on what?
I have suspicions of anyone who knows at least a bit about the history of Islam and Mohammed nonetheless deciding to become a Muslim. That to me is like a German in the 1930s knowing a bit about Mein Kampf and nonetheless thinking the National Socialist Party would be good for Germany.
[Logic ™]
Leviticus, I’m always both leery and amused when people of a liberal bent start talking about logic. I have images of someone like an Obama talking about the importance of balancing the federal budget and how exactly to go about doing that.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:00 am“Son of Lies?” Is that a thing, because it isn’t ringing a bell.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:02 amI believe that the US Marines are called “leathernecks” specifically because of some Muslims’ proclivity for beheading.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:03 amModerate Islam is a myth.
And that’s not being glib or flippant since the founder of Islam was a truly violent, vengeful human being. Amusingly enough, some people (mainly of the left) will sputter, “but Christians have done violent, vengeful things in the name of Christianity!” Yea, but does such behavior adhere to the history and teachings of Jesus Christ?
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:08 amBe honest – you can twist any ancient religious text to justify almost anything.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:11 am124. Sura 2: 191; “Kill the infidel wherever you find him.”
The principle of ‘taqqiya’ prevails in Dar al Harb and will atrophy on realization of Dar al Islam.
Dumbsh*t or liar, choose.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:12 am“you can twist any ancient religious text to justify almost anything.”
But Islamic scripture needs no twisting to justify oppression and murder.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:15 am138. Know anything at all, we dare you.
Where you begin is a matter of indifference.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:17 amnk who reads history as well as fiction (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:06 am
Actually, it began in June 1941, simultaneously with the invasion of the Soviet Union. The began killing Jews in the newly occupied territories by shooting. The Wannsee Conference on January 20, 1942, was not the start of it – it was an update, and already included totals of Jews already eliminated. It was called because of the possibility units in the army didn’t want to co-operate, but the time it took place, resistance was over. The reason it was used at the Nuremberg trial was that it was the oldest surviving document that spelled it out (copy 16 of 30 survived the war) and unfortunately for the historical record, got called the start of it.
It actually started in September, 1939, in Poland, especially near the new border, where in many towns Jews were assembled into the local synagogue, locked in and then the synagogue set on fire, with anyone attempting to escape being shot. But that was called off around November 1939, after the Nazis had killed maybe 150,000 Jews (according to one “Black Book” I read) perhaps because the Nazis realized until they had counted and registered Jews, they couldn’t really be successful, and besides this would serve as a warning to Jews not yet under their rule.
It began again in June, 1941, and the Rumanians did this also in areas they conquered and occupied, like Odessa, but a decision was made to set up ghettos for a while. It began in real earnest around October, 1941, in the part of Poland occupied by the Soviet Union in 1939, and moved back into the area occupied by Germany since 1939 in 1942.
It intensified during the summer. By which time, the chief planner and architect of the Final Solution, and head of Nazi-controlled Interpol, Reinhard Heydrich, had been assassinated by the British for a totally irrelevant and mistaken reason involving Czechoslovakia, killed before most of his victims. This had the probable side effect of saving half the Jews in France (where he was about to go) and preventing the use of poison gas in combat (which he would have advocated)
In the meantime, with the first warning of postwar punishment, on June 3, 1942, the Rumanians abruptly stopped. At that point, Rumania had not brought it back into pre-war Rumanian territory. Some territory, by the way, had been transferred to Hungary in 1940, by Hitler’s arbitration, and Jews there remained untouched until March, 1944.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:19 am139
kishnevi (294553) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:21 amNo. From the people who know best on the topic..
https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/leatherneck-legacy
ropelight (bb7409) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:21 am
He was a able to get a relatively small number of people to attend caucuses.
or at any rate, to be the beginning of end of the rising of seas, and the start of the healing of the earth. And let’s not forget, an end to partisanship. The final end to American racism was just a bonus.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:25 amcarlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:54 am
FWIW, the satellite readings show something quite different from the claimed (yes, I said claimed) surface readings.
I once linked all that for you, carlitos, but as I remember you had some pressing social activities planned and made no commitment to ever look at the data you had previously requested.
#NotScienceDenierButDenierofWrongConclusionsFromFudgedData
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:26 am#FreeSpeechIsImportantMichaelMannShouldBeRidiculedByAllFor”Science”ByIntimidation
#LongHashTagsRUsInLatinorGermanPorFavor
And of course, he wasn’t Hillary Clinton.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:27 amcarlitos was joking, kishnevi.
Thank you, Sammy. I did not know that about Rumania. A friend once insisted that there were no death camps in countries whose population did not want them in the first place, making a point about the historical anti-Semitism of the Poles and Baltics.
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:29 amI do not thank you for the cryptic, passive-aggressive non-answer. I was sincere – what is “Son of Lies” a reference to? Google does not help.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:30 amHave you ever read the Old Testament?
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:31 am48. They went to Turkey – this is the most known thing.
They also went to Portugal, but that turned out to be a big mistake.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Portugal.html
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:32 amAnother day, another aspiring cop killer in New York.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:33 amMD – IIRC, you linked me to some stuff at wattsupwiththat, which I dismiss categorically. If there was something else, please send it here. I have some airplane time to do reading in the next week or so. Apologies for the double-work; I meant to get back to you but this blog wasn’t at the top of my list at the time.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:36 am151. “Passive-aggressive”
Case in point, if I could have reached thru to slap your slobbering face that intent was obvious.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:36 amapologists for a “you WILL join us or you WILL die” religious philosophy/dictate truly suck.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:37 am“Have you ever read the Old Testament?”
And yet somehow Jews and Christians can get along with others while Islam remains a religion of conquest and oppression. Why, it’s almost as if there is something fundamentally different about its authoritative texts. But that can’t be, because multi-culti progressives keep telling me so.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:37 amSo – “Son of Lies” is a DNF original thought, with random capitalization? Just checking – I hadn’t heard of the President being called that before.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:38 amYeah, Jews and Christians have always gotten along swimmingly. Good point.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:40 am155. “Dismiss categorically”
The half wit denies wit’s worth. Quelle suprise.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:40 amI don’t believe there is anything in the OT that advocates the use of physical force today in the spread of Judaism (or in Christianity).
There were some quite harsh and difficult things in the OT that one needs to try to understand in some context,
but in a crude approximation I think the writings that Muslims believe say “kill Japanese for being Japanese, and kill Germans for being Germans”
while the OT example would be more along the lines of “kill the Japanese living there that we are at war with at this time and the Germans that we are at war with at this time”.
Now, that is very crude, off the cuff, and may not stand scrutiny, and even if it does is not a fully adequate treatment of the subject.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:42 amBut I think it does throw into question the claim that the tenants of Islam as practiced today and the practice of Judaism as proscribed by religious texts are equivalent.
Boxer down for 10 count… http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/barbara-boxer-retire_823344.html
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:42 am158
You have no reason to be familiar with Arutz Sheva, Lehava, abd certain other Jewish outfits. But if you were, you would hedged that remark about Jews and Christians getting along with others with some serious limitations.
Christianity was a religion of conquest and oppression for most of the period 300 to 1900 CE. It stopped mainly because of the falling away from religion that began with the Enlightenment. Islam has yet to experience its own version of the Enlightenment.
kishnevi (3719b7) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:48 amWhat I linked to showed the original data, no matter where it was located where I cited it.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:48 amI will go roll in the snow naked before I bother spending my time looking up that or anything for you again (no, not a pretty sight and imagine polar bear cubs playing in the snow instead).
As sometimes the case with others, I made the point not for your benefit, because I know you have your mind made up and are not interested,
but for any otherwise inadequately informed onlooker who thought you were making a point that was the final word on the subject.
163. Madame Senator is desirous of a victory lap and a bullet train bearing her maidenhead.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:49 amMD – fair points. I’d have to go back and read myself, but your argument sounds correct to me. Also – tenets 🙂
DNF – I’m about to add you to the ignore script on firefox, so don’t be alarmed if I no longer respond to your musings.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:49 amI don’t believe he stated “always“. I don’t believe any group has gotten along swimmingly in history. But nether the Christians nor Jews are stuck in the 17h century nor are they war mongers and barbarians due to their religious teaching.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:51 amJudaism is not a proselytizing religion. Although Christ does chide the Pharisees for proselytizing in the “Woe unto you” passages.
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:53 am154
kishnevi (3719b7) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:53 amAlso three officers in Washington State shot at by a passing car while answering a domestic violence call. A quick search failed to bring it up now. Possibly I used a wrong search term.
MD – I really do apologize. That was bad form on my part. However, your link to the original data reeks of “cargo cult” science.
You and I don’t really need to learn every data point and complex model. Sure, we’re smart guys, and we think that we know whatever. But there are thousands and thousands of climate scientists that have done the work for us, and they almost all point towards anthropogenic global warming being a real thing. I, personally, don’t believe that they are all engaged in a grand conspiracy to … something. Scientists are underpaid public servants, for the most part. You disagree. I’ll leave it there.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:53 am152. “Have you ever read.. ”
Mouthing words mispronounced out loud is hardly ‘reading’, Gollum.
DNF (ec3057) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:56 amNor is mis-pronouncing or misspelling french phrases, LOL.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:57 amWhen Muslims get their feelings hurt, they somehow manage to have mass rallies and mass killings. After something like what has happened in Paris, they can only muster some rather mild rebukes on twitter.
It’s an inarguable fact that the first natural instinct of Western media is to insulate/protect Muslims against the great mythical backlash that NEVER comes. One has to wonder which side of this battle they are on.
The problem we have in the West is that the West has no one willing to represent the old, white males who created civilization… no one in a position of real power willing to defend civilization against the dismal tide of Islam.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:58 amkishnevi-
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:58 amThe one who assumes there is nothing of content in religious claims can be quick to treat some things as a feature of the essence of a thing, whereas others would see it quite differently.
Power corrupts, and when religious convictions of any stripe get yoked with earthly governments it is bad for both.
It is not true that from 300 to 1900 that Christian faith at its essence was a religion of conquest and oppression. While many political powers may or may not have claimed allegiance with Christian faith, the Christian faith, as defined, included the idea that Jesus’ kingdom was not of this world.
As another very crude analogy, one could claim that since the Democratic party of Kennedy and Johnson was interventionist in foreign policy all Democrats are interventionist,
but again, that is a very crude and limited analogy.
MD..the command to exterminate Amalek remains in force, and is not put into practice at only because it is impossible to figure out who the current biological descendants of Amalek are. That Amalek has spiritual descendants, such as Hamas, is accepted, but the application of the command to them is doubtful.
kishnevi (294553) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:02 am100 years ago, Greeks and Italians wouldn’t have been considered “white” in the USA. Food for thought.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:04 amno one in a position of real power willing to defend civilization against the dismal tide of Islam.
Otherwise known as the Nidal-Hasanization of Western society, in which political correctness and nonsensical liberal sentiments run amok.
As the phrase goes, I don’t think this will turn out well.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:04 amThere was a tie carlitos when there were thousands of scientists who pointed to the earth being flat ad the center of the solar system. They too were wrong as are proponents of AGW.
And scientists are definitely not underpaid public servants. They are highly over paid agents of government policy who obey their overlords to protect their positions, benefits and retirement. Just like government economists, lawyers etcetera.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:05 amAgain, for others,
there is ample explanation available on how the “97% agree with global warming” is a gross and misleading distortion
and plenty of information critical of global warming by people who were respected before they departed from the crowd, sometimes people who came to conclusions after looking at things critically themselves instead of trusting the abstracts of papers.
I think most scientists do what they do because they can, they (relatively) like it and get paid for it, not as public servants. I say that as one who includes himself in the scientist clan.
Apology appreciated and accepted.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:07 amMD..the Church, as an institution, was very much into conquering and oppressing for that period. Probably Jesus woukd have been horrified, but if he was in a position to stop them, he apparently did not try.
kishnevi (a5d1b9) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:08 am100 years ago, Greeks and Italians wouldn’t have been considered “white” in the USA.
That was Margaret Sanger. The KKK considers Greeks to be the first Aryans in Europe. The last time I checked, anyway. 😉
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:08 amwell I’ll see your straw man and raise you one: the indigenous people in southern Mexico are being mistreated, discriminated against and – in some cases – murdered without consequence… in today’s world, also food for thought.
There is a lot that went on 100 years ago that shouldn’t have, I don’t think anyone here has said it should.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:09 am“Yeah, Jews and Christians have always gotten along swimmingly. Good point.”
I never said “always”. Thanks for misrepresenting me.
My point is that Christianity and Judaism can get along, but Islam’s texts and traditions make it different. And there is an old saying about the proof of the pudding. One and a half millenia and Islam still has not reformed into something peaceful and tolerant. How many millenia must we wait?
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:12 amMargaret Sanger… one of the first in a long line of liberal fascists.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:16 amYou didn’t say “always,” but you want to go back 1500 years? Make up your mind. Jews and Christians have more or less gotten along for 70 years out of 1500. And, looking to France and Europe, getting along is debatable.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:18 amIslam is government by religion and therefore unable to coexist with any other form of government or religion. One cannot have a dialog with someone who wants only a monologue. There is absolutely no reason any moslim would want to or should be able to live in America. Our Judeo-Christian heritage and love of the Republic are the antithesis of every word in the Koran. The only reason a moslim would be here is to subvert the Republic.
There are over a billion moslims in the world and if only 10% are radicals that’s over 100 million. Which would leave the other 900 million as enablers.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:24 amWas anyone warning about Islam 100 years ago?
No, that’s when Max von Oppenheim started writing all these fatwas for jihad and killing civilians had them translated into Arabic and other languages from the original German and distributed to Moslem clerics.
This also hardly existed even 50 years ago. Or say 60 years ago.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:27 amDidn’t Jefferson build a fleet to fight the Barbary Pirates? Were they not moslim?
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:31 amhttp://openbookpublishers.com/htmlreader/TPOMVO/chapter05.html
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:34 amhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_von_Oppenheim
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:36 amOr he could be here to drive a taxi and send money home to his family.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:37 amhttp://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/03/from-berlin-to-bin-laden/308369/
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:40 amI, personally, don’t believe that they are all engaged in a grand conspiracy to … something.
Keep in mind that a division of science and research (the medical industry) involving something smaller, more immediate and presumably easier to study — the human body — compared with the hugeness of planet Earth, for the longest time kept worrying and nagging about how obesity was connected to the intake of fat, while little or nothing was said about the intake of sugar. The food industry, in turn, got on the bandwagon with products touting “low fat!” or “non-fat!”
Truly dumb, and much of the public, including food companies, remains stuck with the old paradigm.
Meanwhile, in regards not to the human body but to the little planet it occupies:
^ The contradiction above is analogous to all the researchers who’ve long suspected sugar was, in fact, the prime suspect, not fat, in obesity and illness, versus the researchers (and all their toadies) who still buy into the idea that FAT! is the culprit, not carbohydrates—as reflected in the products in the grocery store that still tout “low fat!” or “low fat!” compared with the almost non-existent number of products that tout “reduced sugar!” or “sugar free!,” but NOT meaning something substituted with cruddy synthetic sugar.
Yea, we can trust the experts.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:48 amSo he’s taking a job fro an American and sending money to someone in a country that wants us annihilated. I repeat, they’re only here to subvert the Republic. They have nothing in common with American values, tradition or culture. They refuse to assimilate. They don’t believe in Freedom of religion, the press, speech or any other basic tenants of Americanism. They need to leave. Now.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 9:53 amMark, maybe you didn’t read the sources at your link? Your protagonists are on board with the anthropomorphic global warming hypothesis.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:00 amYour musings are not very different from critics of Irish / Italian / German / Polish immigration 100 years ago.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:02 am“I repeat, they’re only here to subvert the Republic. They have nothing in common with American values, tradition or culture.”
– Hoagie
What’s more in keeping with modern America values and culture than subverting the Republic? We could handle that just fine ourselves, without the help of Muslim immigrants.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:02 amanthromorphic = anthropogenic. Derp.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:03 amhe pope said climate change is of the devil
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:03 amHow the Irish Became White
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:03 amIt’s amusing that the enablers cheer and applaud as those they enable crash planes into our building yet carlitos sees them as poor, harmless misunderstood cabbies. You do realize they’ve declared war on America, call us the Great Satan and cheer “Death to America” at every chance carlitos. They’re here to kill you and me and America and they need to go. Now. Or we could sit on our politically correct asses and wait for them to bring a nuke into a city. At which point I would no longer be in favor of exile but rather total annihilation for the and their apologists.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:06 am*the* pope i mean
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:06 amYou make an excellent point, Leviticus. After all we do have the Chicago wing of the democrat party.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:08 amsome muslims are not nice but most of them are super nice Mr. Hoagie
you have to make distinctions
happyfeet (a037ad) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:09 amHoagie – I’ll let your writing and my writing stand for judgement. Good luck with the nuke in your city.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:10 amperhaps carlitos is not aware that Islam hasn’t experienced its own “Enlightenment”. Unfortunately, that will be one of those “Inshallah” things… translation: ain’t gonna happen.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:13 ammost of them would sooner see gay folks (especially those who are big on SSM) hanged by the neck until dead, feets.
Who’s yer daddy, now?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:16 amNumerous polls and investigations show that the overwhelming majority of European Muslims want to replace Western law and culture with Sharia Law.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:17 amWe Westerners are supposed to pretend this is not the case. We are supposed to continue to allow large-scale Muslim immigration, until Muslim numbers as so large as to be able to change our laws through the vote.
I’m not sure when cultural suicide became a virtue, but I do not thank the Left for this delusion.
Carlitos, your writing (or thinking) show poor judgment already, no need to let it stand. Dismissing the murderous deeds and intent of an avowed enemy with the wave of your hand shows poor knowledge of history, lack of maturity, lack of common sense and a very naïve notion of human nature. Thus, poor judgment.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:19 amBootm line: Islam is at war with us, whether we fight back or not.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:19 amIf you need to invent strawman arguments, Hoagie, your posts are even worse than I thought.
When did I dismiss murderous deeds and intent of an avowed enemy? That’s right, I didn’t.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:21 am“MD – IIRC, you linked me to some stuff at wattsupwiththat, which I dismiss categorically.”
carlitos – Once again displaying that open mind which allows you to avoid reading information which conflicts with your views. Was there a misspelled word in a post on that site which caused you to categorically dismiss them? I find it curious that when I open my online dictionary to the phrase “epistemic closure” your picture pops up.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:23 amyou have the entire straw concession, you are always chasing phantom threats, and derail whole threads, what you do?
narciso (ee1f88) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:23 amperhaps carlitos is not aware
For some reason liberal emotions seem to have a strong influence on triggering moral equivalency and moral relativism. Not totally sure why that is, but in general I’m always wary of people who tend to be poor judges of the good and bad in both humans and situations. There, too, I’ve noticed willful ignorance and blatant naivete are more likely to emanate from left-leaning sentiments, more so than from right-leaning ones.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:24 amNo straw man, carlitos. What you’ve posted here seems to me a litany of side steps and excuses for the devastation that is Islam. Just my opinion by observation. And a glib “Good luck with a nuke in your city” is just another wave of your hand to me. Apparently you find no problem with radical terrorists getting nuclear weapons, I do. It’s not a straw man, it’s an inevitability. A wiser man than either you or I said: A pound of prevention is worth a pound of cure. They need to go. Now.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:27 amConfirmation bias
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:27 ammost of them would sooner see gay folks (especially those who are big on SSM) hanged by the neck until dead
I’m reminded of Lenin saying that Western capitalists (presumably the species known in particular as the “limousine liberal”) would sell the rope with which they’d be hanged from.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:28 amcarlitos is that fundamentalist Islamic apologist dhimmi we’ve been waiting for?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:28 amSorry, that’s an ounce of prevention.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:29 amThat is the very definition of a straw man argument. You made up a position – carlito has no problem with radical terrorists getting nuclear weapons – and then you argued against it. Dude.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:30 am“The sword that cuts both ways” (I bet I could get the original Dostoyevsky Russian version, but I’m not going to look for it)
Yes, the reality that the poles are not melting as categorically declared and explained a few years ago had become so obvious that even proponents of global warming have had to admit it.
Not content, however, to admit maybe they don’t know as much as they think they do, or that some of what they think is so isn’t, they are quick to hand-wave some explanations of why they are still right, even if their predictions weren’t.
I think the tie in with the low-fat info is a good one. “Everybody”, including official medical organizations were quick to say “me too” instead of looking more critically at first.
BTW, at WUWT it appears they have a pretty open comments policy, so there is ample opportunity for global warming proponents to educate the misinformed, if they have adequate info and arguments to.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:36 amCarlitos, I merely responded to your flippant statement ” Good luck with that nuke in your city” remark. We all are aware the moslims are working on nuclear weapons. Their willingness and intention to use them on us should be obvious to a mature mind. Again, it’s not a possibility it’s an inevitability. This thread is about terrorism and those who perpetrate it, is it not? Think boy, think. They are willing to blow themselves up to kill civilians at a pizza parlor, wedding or bar-mitzvah. You don’t think given the chance they’d nuke an American city?
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:40 amBTW carlitos, you need to separate the hypothetical from the straw man.
Hoagie (4dfb34) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:43 amdaley, if you want to get your global climate science from Watts, that’s up to you. I’ll go with the scientists. From rationalwiki:
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:43 amDana, at 40:
a lot of the bodegas in the city are run by Muslim immigrants. From what I can tell from my interactions with them, they’re just people like anyone else, trying to make their way in the world and make a dollar to pay their bills. I don’t see any particular reason to punish *them* for the actions of assholes who happen to share their religion – and I think that the people of my city choosing, en masse, to do so would be a guaranteed way of producing more anti-western assholes.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:43 amYour protagonists are on board with the anthropomorphic global warming hypothesis.
Carlitos, were they among the crowd that originally theorized that AGW would cause the polar ice caps to melt?
Good luck with the nuke in your city.
Is that similar to the sentiments of those people who originally theorized that crime rates would skyrocket (“Good luck getting mugged and burglarized”) in the US unless the “War on Poverty” and a lot of do-gooder government policymaking and programs in general weren’t enacted and promoted?
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:44 am“Was anyone warning about Islam 100 years ago?”
Sammy – Winston Churchill
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:46 amthey’re just people like anyone else, trying to make their way in the world and make a dollar to pay their bills.
I have a hunch you wouldn’t say the same thing — at least with as much conviction and ease — if you were dealing with staunch but quiet and law-abiding rightwing American Christians who despise the agenda of, say, GLBT.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:50 am“Jews and Christians have more or less gotten along for 70 years out of 1500.”
carlitos – Which 70 years and what country(ies)?
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:50 am“daley, if you want to get your global climate science from Watts, that’s up to you. I’ll go with the scientists. From rationalwiki:”
Carlitos – If you want to base your categorical dismissal on a source like rational wiki that’s up to you. I know from reading Wattsupwiththat what you cite is categorically untrue, not that it would change your mind. Plus the site has postings from numerous scientists and last time I visited allows vigorous debate in the comment section.
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:55 amWhat exactly did I cite that is categorically untrue? Please be specific.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/05/13/anthony-watts-contradicted-by/
http://www.skepticalscience.com/WattsandBEST.html
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:58 amMark, at 229: there are a couple things there.
First, I don’t think I can fairly infer anything about the private beliefs of a shopkeeper based on his proclaimed religious affiliation, but your comparison *specifies* the private beliefs of the “staunch but quiet and law-abiding rightwing American Christian”. That makes it an unfair comparison – for the shopkeeper at the bodega, I have to *presume* something I don’t have the information to presume, but for your hypothetical, the equivalent presumption is definitional.
Second, to a certain degree you misread me. A staunch but quiet and law-abiding rightwing American Christian who despises me because of my sexuality is someone I could not consider a friend, and I would have a difficult time being close to socially and emotionally; but I would not boycott the shop run by that man – because he’s just an ordinary guy trying to get by in the world and find a way to allow himself to act within his religious sensibilities *and* within the rules of a pluralistic society.
Now, the same guy actively trying to get New York to repeal its same sex marriage law? I would almost certainly not shop at his bodega then, if I were aware of it – but I would not *presume* that he was *actively* trying to injure my interests, simply from my knowledge of the church he attends.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:10 amcarlitos’ “clever” question is typical of people who have never read the Old Testament or the Quran (and more imporantly the Sunnah literature). Which is why carlitos thinks it’s clever.
The violence in the Old Testament isn’t prescriptive. Whereas jihad, war against the infidels, is in fact the sixth pillar of Islam. It’s an obligation that Islam places upon Muslims. like tithing or prayer or the Hajj.
http://quran.com/2/216
Surat Al-Baqarah 2:216:
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:12 amAlright, big conservative here, but I gotta say. Waaaaaaaay too many of you sound like Bill the Butcher from Gangs of New York right now:
“My father gave his life, making this country what it is. Murdered by the British with all of his men on the twenty-fifth of July, anno domini, 1814. Do you think I’m going to help you befoul his legacy, by giving this country over to them what’s had no hand in the fighting for it? Why, because they come off a boat crawling with lice and begging you for soup?”
“You see this knife? I’m gonna teach you to speak English with this f****ing knife!”
“At my challenge, by the ancient laws of combat, we are met at this chosen ground, to settle for good and all who holds sway over the Five Points: us Natives, born RIGHT-WISE to this fine land, or the foreign hordes defiling it!”
“I don’t see no Americans. I see trespassers, Irish harps. Do a job for a nickel what a n***** does for a dime and a white man used to get a quarter for. What have they done? Name one thing they’ve contributed.”
Burnside (8fa39f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:20 amCarlitos, let’s say the climate is changing as it has been doing for billions of years. Then let’s say that population and modern advances in civilization and technology (namely in China, India, USA) have in various cases slowed down /sped up/ or somewhat altered the trajectory of our climate’s inevitable change. Let’s also agree that asteroids, and volcanic eruptions, and nuclear explosions, and earthquakes, and sun influences, and various other largely uncontrollable natural phenomena have sometimes startlingly affected climate on our planet. My question to you is so what? How do you expect climate change to affect you (or your descendants) personally or professionally over the next 200 years or so? What makes you think that little insignificant but ego driven ‘us’ can, or have a duty to try to impact the ebb and flow of the universe? Why do you seem to think that modern man is less capable of adapting to changes in mountains and coastlines and oceans that those who lived through the previous millennia? Why, of all the discussions on this comment board is global warming one that seems to make you so crazy? Just asking as a friend.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:25 amCongratulations, Burnside. You saw a movie.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:28 amWhich has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of discussion.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:28 amThat’s the beauty of scripture. You can interpret it any way you want. Take a look at Malachi or Zechariah, and tell me that can’t be read as prescriptive.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:30 amBecause smart people, like the commenters here, are denying facts. It drives me nuts. Sure, let’s argue about the solutions, but denying the problem is crazy. There just isn’t a grand conspiracy of academia and science to rig climate numbers. To believe otherwise is complete paranoia, and apparently more than half of Republican voters believe in such a conspiracy.
Global warming denial is the same type of propaganda as the denial that cigarettes caused cancer. Same people, same agencies. How can people fall for this again?
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:41 amIs there anyone on the planet acting on what you are calling Biblical “prescriptions”, carlitos? Or is this just for weak argument’s sake?
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:43 amA staunch but quiet and law-abiding rightwing American Christian who despises me because of my sexuality is someone I could not consider a friend, and I would have a difficult time being close to socially and emotionally; but I would not boycott the shop run by that man
aphrael, so the question is whether you’d be quite as enthusiastic (as likely to immediately express your opinion) about the wrongness of such a boycott if it were sponsored by Islamicists compared with one involving so-called WASP conservatives? You may very well be totally honest if you say “yes,” but your mulling over the hypotheticals of businesses owned by Christian American rightists — compared with your not also musing over reasons why you’d happily boycott businesses owned by Islamicists — does give me pause.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:46 am@239, that’s the position of the deliberately obtuse.
What you’re saying is that God had no point. He was just spitting out a word salad that can be used to justify anything that you were going to do anyway. As opposed to an instruction manual about how to serve Him.
You don’t even have to be a believer to know what you’re saying is complete nonsense, carlitos. You are operating from a state of ignorance, are committed to remaining in that state of ignorance, but that won’t stop you from expounding on a subject you refuse to take seriously and preening about the fact you don’t intend to ever have the faintest idea of what you’re talking about.
“Marxism, Adam Smith; they’re both the same because yeach of them wrote about economics. And that’s the beauty of economics texts. You can interpret them any way you want.”
Right carlitos. It isn’t as if Marx and Smith had different ideas about economics. Just like the Old Testament and the Quran (in your view) don’t have anything different to say about violence.
They both have violence in them!
And all this is just one big scrabble game, and you can put the pieces together any way you want.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:48 amYou did not really answer my query on why you think climate change is a “problem”, Carlitos. Or justify that we need “solutions” I really do think that’s where much of the disconnect arises when this topic is discussed here and elsewhere. And, no, discussing climate is not remotely equivalent to biologic discussions of smoking and cancer in the human body. .
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:49 amIf you haven’t checked into ClimateAudit recently, it has some very interesting articles. The attempt by Michael Mann to silence his critics is rather convoluted, but suffice it to say that a three judge Federal panel is now reviewing the case. Steve McIntyre has been following the arguments, and he has four posts that are worth the time. Mark Steyn has been part of Mann’s victim list, and Mark is having a good time with the whole thing. This is all about freedom of the press and speach, and it is just another facet of the attack on our western values. And Steyn is one of those free thinkers who the muslims have been working to silence for almost a decade.
These articles might prove to be a good purgative for the baloney that has been spewed so generously above.
bobathome (348c8a) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:49 amBingo. Replace “God” with “dudes who wrote this stuff” and we are in total agreement. That’s exactly how religious texts have been used throughout history.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:50 am… whom the muslims …
bobathome (348c8a) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:52 amIn which carlitos proclaims that religion has never had anything to do with establishing anything specific in the way of a system of ethics.
Did you graduate from an Ivy League institution, carlitos? As Orwell observed, some ideas are so obviously stupid that no ordinary man could ever embrace them. Only a highly educated person could possibly believe it. My contribution to Orwell’s observation is that you have to pay extra to go to a school that’s trashed any prestige whatsoever it may have once had to get dumbed down to that degree.
Hence I ask. Did you go to an Ivy League school?
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:54 amMaybe, one day, there will be enough confirmatory data about this climate change stuff that we can definitively say who was in denial.
After all, it didn’t take long at all in the 70-80’s to decide there wasn’t global cooling.
meanwhile, awhile ago (?? how long) there was some stuff at PowerLine about a couple of economists that buy into the global warming (after all, they are economists), but point out the utter ridiculousness of the cost of any proposal that would meaningfully work to decrease CO2.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:55 amThe comment in which carlitos exposes the fact that the concept of heresy and the existence of blasphemy laws are completely unknown to him.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:56 amYou had to have gone to Harvard, carlitos. Like our preezy, who is also historically illiterate and proud of it.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:58 amGlobal warming denial is the same type of propaganda as the denial that cigarettes caused cancer
You’re dabbling in moral relativism or equivalency, since there was never a large contingent of people, certainly any reliable experts not overtly affiliated with the tobacco industry, who were arguing against the link between smoking and cancer, and had contradictory information like the one posted above about “the Antarctic is actually growing and all the evidence in the last few months suggests many assumptions about the poles was wrong.”
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:00 pmdennis prager’s addition is “that is so preposterous a person had to go to graduate school to believe it” (at least that’s where I heard it)
Yes, and Steyn separated himself from the other defendants because they are taking the legal strategy of having the suit thrown out under anti-SLAPP regs.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:00 pmSteyn wants it to move forward ASAP, as he is looking forward to discovery and facing Mann in court.
when asked for a rational – or any kind of – explanation, it’s crickets…
moral/ethical equivalency of The Bible and the Quran/Koran… sheesh.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:00 pm“Is there anyone on the planet acting on what you are calling Biblical “prescriptions”, carlitos? Or is this just for weak argument’s sake?”
– Colonel Haiku
Christians in Africa?
Like in Uganda?
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:01 pmWell, it’s a “problem” in that we are going to have some weather changes, coastline erosion, relocation of the people of Vanatau, building sea walls outside London and Rotterdam, that sort of thing. I guess you could call it a “challenge” if problem isn’t the right word.
With 50 years of hindsight, it’s easy for you to say that. Why is one kind of science denial different from another kind of science denial? Go back in time and see what the “merchants of doubt” were saying about the scientific view of smoking. Read “A Frank Statement,” which was published in 1954 in hundreds of newspapers. That same agency, Hill and Knowlton, was used by various industry groups to poo-poo the dangers of asbestos and the erosion of the ozone layer.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:02 pmBoth the location of the very room where I’m currently sitting and the fertile cropland my family farmed for generations was once covered with ice and glaciers. The glaciers melted and retreated. It was not a tragedy at all. Life went on. I’m glad.
http://www.museum.state.il.us/muslink/forest/htmls/an_ice.html
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:03 pm“You are operating from a state of ignorance, are committed to remaining in that state of ignorance, but that won’t stop you from expounding on a subject you refuse to take seriously and preening about the fact you don’t intend to ever have the faintest idea of what you’re talking about.”
– Steve57
You like this line, I can tell.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:03 pm“Was anyone warning about Islam 100 years ago?”
daleyrocks (bf33e9) — 1/8/2015 @ 10:46 am
It was a different kind of warning, and not really a warning at all, if this is what I am thinking about. He said it was a very fatalistic religion.
If he said anything about fighting, it was they could be stirred up to fanatical fighting. Not that it was happening.
I think this is the quotation:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill
What he says is that while Christianity acts like a vaccination, Islam makes people more likely to go mad. Not that it is inevitable. Which is what people are trying to say. They are almost saying all Moslems all the time.
All That Winston Churchill said was that there was something in Islam, in its history, (which of course has to be admired by its adherents) that facilitates fanaticism and war.
“But luckily the religion of peace is usually the better armed.” (so you don’t have much war, because the people who would wage war have some sense or get defeated.)
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:06 pman organization that bestows awards on the likes of Mary Robinson and Desmond Tutu has no relevance for me, nor do I find it an honest broker.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:08 pmAnother straw man. Thanks, it has been a while. If I meant to say “religion has never had anything to do with establishing anything specific in the way of a system of ethics,” you can be sure I would have actually said such a thing.
Have you read Hammurabi’s Code?
Public high school, junior college, state university, and I got my MBA at Northwestern.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:12 pmIt’s just that people give me the opportunity to use it a lot. Like Ezra Klein alternating between someone who can voxsplain the meaning of the Constitution when he isn’t declaring that it should be ignored because it’s over 100 years old and long and it uses words that are hard to understand.
carlitos approaches scripture the same way.
The thing is, after demonstrating that they really can’t understand the texts that are really old and long, and that it’s pointless to try, why should I listen to them as if they have something insightful to say about those texts?
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:13 pm“Truth is great and will prevail if left to herself . . . she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.”
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:13 pm— Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 1786
I think we can say that, around the year 1900, Winston Churchill said it had been – really it had been about 250 years – since they’d had any religious wars in Europe, and even then the theology of Christianity argued against it.
But it was still very possible with Moslems, and its basic theology could help it along, rather than retard it.
This was not a warning, except maybe to make sure that non-Moslems should always have the strongest armies.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:13 pm“Public high school, junior college, state university, and I got my MBA at Northwestern.”
– carlitos
You pointy-headed nerd, you.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:15 pmNorthwestern.
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/programs/full-time-mba/tuition-financial-aid.aspx
That comes close enough to my description to work.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:19 pmOnce the global warming “models” are shown to be in any way accurate, or predictive to where they track with actual historical data, I will start taking their hysteria more seriously. And once they quit hiding the raw data and “adjustments”.
JD (b870df) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:19 pmYeah, and I paid my way through night school most of the way. Just another ivy-league academic, I guess.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:20 pmAt what point in your MBA program did you learn about there not being a dime’s worth of difference between the Quran and the Bible, carlitos?
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:20 pmThe MBA was around $40K, Steve. Over a 10-year loan, it cost about $600 per month. A$$hole.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:21 pmWell, it’s a “problem” in that we are going to have some weather changes, coastline erosion, relocation of the people of Vanatau
Carlitos, you do have to admit you’re a proud disciple of the Holy Church of Environmentalism and AGW.
It’s odd how people with left-leaning emotions (either glints of or head-on) want to exaggerate the impact of AGW, while, at the same time, downplaying the impact of social-cultural forces linked to Islamicism. Ass-backwards-ism appears to be a common ailment of modern-day liberalism.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:21 pm“That comes close enough to my description to work.”
– Steve57
See? People can interpret words to mean whatever their biases want them to mean. Thanks for the object lesson.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:22 pmTypical. The real a$$holes are at Northwestern overcharging people for MBAs whether in 1970 or 2015 dollars.
But I get called names for pointing it out. And providing the link.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:23 pmCarlitos, did you even bother to read my comment? My comment @11:25 purposely “denied” nothing while addressing and also asking you to consider the big picture–the many reasons and ways that earth’s climate changes and has changed. Yet you ignored it all and continue to focus and harrangue on just the one thing you want to. Fine. BTW, my peeps have been building sea walls and djkes in the Netherlands for generations. 🙂 That’s because a great deal of the land was reclaimed from the sea and is actually below sea level. Michael Mann had nothing to do with it.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:25 pmWhether or not he went to an outstanding Big Ten school is utterly irrelevant to basically anything.
JD (b870df) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:27 pmMy MBA was from the TMP program in the late 90’s, night school. I worked full-time the whole way, borrowed the tuition, and completed it in the minimum – 10 quarters.
Steve – you are an a$$hole for intimating that I’m some kind of elitist, not for linking data to the 2015 one-year MBA program at Northwestern. Not everyone who disagrees with you fits into your preconceived notions of whatever an elitist is.
elissa – I read your points, which were mostly about us coping with climate change. You seem to think that human migration in the Ice Age was “not a tragedy?” Homo sapiens almost went extinct during the first Ice Age, IIRC. As for this interglacial, I think that our forebears’ forced migration was probably a bit of a hassle.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:33 pmIt isn’t a matter of “interpreting words.” Unless of course you operate in a vacuum where everything is a matter of opinion and there is no bottom line. No way to judge whether or not that $120k has a good ROI or is a complete waste of time.
And you may indeed operate in just such a vacuum, Leviticus. In which case you’d be a perfect candidate to apply for a federal government job.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:33 pmSteve57, where people went to school, got degrees, and how much it cost is really beside the point. You know? Let’s not get sidetracked.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:34 pmMy $40K had a positive ROI. All I had to do was get a $10k raise, and I more than covered the loan after taxes. Thanks for your concern.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:38 pmI didn’t intimate anything. I unequivocally stated that your views on religion are so obtuse only overexposure to the American educational system could possibly have produced them.
Then I grew curious to know if you paid extra to go to a “name” school for the privilege.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:38 pmI think the history of our Earth shows that we have been constantly in a state of change between heating and cooling. Many would state that is the state of nature.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:40 pmWell Carlitos, when New Madrid breaks open and the Yellowstone supervolcano goes kaflooie you’re going to be sorry you spent so much time worrying about carbon taxes and burning coal and creating electric cars.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:42 pmCarlitos – tried to send you pics from Mexico. They wouldn’t go through.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:43 pmDo they teach you about opportunity costs at MBA school?
https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/553216172108546048
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:43 pmSteve – a closed mouth gathers no feet.
No, I haven’t taken a religion or philosophy class at “name” school. My MBA was 20 classes, and none of them had anything to do with anything but business. In undergrad, I did an honors colloquium on comparative religions, and I tutored that class for a while, but that’s it.
Here’s what you should type next – “I’m sorry carlitos, I was wrong.”
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:44 pmSee my comment @283.
You definitely acquired the “critical thinking skills” I’ve been going on about, carlitos.
I’m not wrong about that.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:46 pmI’m sorry, I was wrong/dishonest is something that Mann should consider saying.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:46 pmMy cell is the same, but my work email is changed. Try my gmail – chicagocarl at gmail dot com. Pictures from Mexico are always welcome!
Steve – I have the coolest job in the world, and I make a hell of a lot more than that welder guy. Just give up, already.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:46 pmI find it amazing that you are attacking him for the school he went to. It is truly mind boggling.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:47 pmCarlitos does have a seriously cool job. Wouldn’t trade it for welding any day of the week.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:48 pmSo, you started out making $140k at 24 y.o., too?
Or are you glossing over crucial differences again in order to pretend you have a salient point?
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:50 pmIf you want to be a welder, go ahead. I worked in a factory for a year or so, and it sucked.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:55 pmI am not attacking anybody over what school they went to.
I’m noting that Orwell was right when he made his observation. It used to be that students came to school with their heads full of prejudices, and it was the educators job to remove those prejudices and replace them with the ability to think.
But since the late sixties education has taken on a different role. Now when students come to them with their heads full of prejudices, schools remove those prejudices and replace them with different prejudices.
When carlitos makes statements about the moral equivalency of the Bible and Islamic scripture he simply repeats those prejudices that indicate overexposure to that system of indoctrination.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:56 pmOr he disagrees with your views.
JD (86a5eb) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:57 pmSteve57, you are at the point of embarrassing yourself. Maybe a short time out is in order.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:57 pmOf course, Orwell made his observation about how it takes years of advanced study in order to accept ideas that are so obviously false that no ordinary human being could ever adopt them in the 1940s.
Which indicates that western education began debasing itself before the 1960s. But I’d have to say that the transition from education to indoctrination rapidly accelerated after the ’60s.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 12:59 pmhttp://twitter.com/YoungCons/status/420609448202080256/photo/1
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:00 pmOf course he does. I’m noting why that is.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:01 pmThe “indoctrination” in Cost Accounting 201 was particularly sinister. One second, you’re discussing amortization schedules, and – whammo! – you get speechified on how Islam is just like Christianity.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:02 pmIs Christianity just like Islam, carlitos?
After all, you’ll find violence in the Old Testament and the Quran.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:04 pma bean counter… say it isn’t so!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:05 pmThe front page headlines of both the New York Post and the New York Daily News say it was “Al Qaeda” that did this, while the New York Times says “Terrorists”
The Wall Street Journal won’t go any further than “Gunmen” in the subhead, although it does descriibe it as “Terror.”
I think the identification as being from Al Qaeda is because that’s the organization the gunmen said they were from, when told Corinne Rey to type in the security code – which is how they were able to kill a dozen people. But she saved herself. She had to know this wasn’t a robbery.
They may even have specifically said Al Qaeda in Yemen.
They spoke perfect French, she said.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:08 pmNigeria’s 9/11: Boko Haram Kills 2000 in Attack, Baga City Burnt To The Ground.
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2015/01/08/nigerias-911-boko-haram-kills-2000-in-attack-on-baga-city-burnt-to-the-ground/
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:11 pmHow about Jainism? Is Islam just like Jainism, carlitos? After all…
…religious texts have been used to “justify anything that you were going to do anyway” throughout history.
So they must be the same.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:12 pmHmmm, I didn’t see elissa’s comments about coping with climate change as much as pointing out how much climate change had occurred prior to industrialized humans.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:13 pmI was referring to this part:
I don’t think we can affect “the ebb and flow of the universe” so much, but 8 billion people worth of carbon seems likely to affect the earth’s status quo.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:18 pmThank you, MD. That was my point. I’m happy it was not lost on everybody.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:18 pmSorry to see all the name calling and such here. It’s a new year. And most everyone posting is a great or good person; it’s a shame this is all virtual; I’ll bet most of this would go away if we could all share a beverage and a game of darts or something similar. I’m not being snarky.
I hesitate to wade into the whole AGW mess, but I would make two observations (and I am repeating myself, sadly):
1. Folks often take up sides on this issue based on politics or philosophy, rather than science. Then egos get involved. I point no fingers, but that is what I have seen here, in family discussions, and at international conferences.
2. I continue to wait for a “back predictive computer model” relating carbon dioxide to global warming or cooling. After all, this is the major concern that drives many to call for massive economic and societal changes. And the worry is due to the computer model results, right? Here is the problem. We know carbon dioxide levels with solid certainty for the past 100,000 years. We also know temperature for the past several hundred (and can infer far further back). So… Plug in the CO2 numbers, and see how close the model’s answer is to the observed temperature.
It doesn’t work, by the way.
When I have asked atmospheric scientists about this, they tell me about “drivers” that accelerate change. The problem is that all of the drivers work in the same direction. The same direction that agrees with the conclusion. That’s not science anymore…that’s something akin to religion.
So I think most of this is, once again, the evil offspring of science and politics. That hybridization has never been a good policy. Ask Lysenko about it.
Do I know the Earth is warming? That’s actually a complicated question. Do I know CO2 levels are up? Sure, they are. Which brings me back to a back-predictive model.
I do wish the scientists involved wouldn’t act like Paul Ehrlich and John Holdren. They have both made pretty wild predictions in the past—serving an political, social, and economic agenda—that decidedly did not come true. That’s not open to interpretation; that’s the truth.
Data are data. Das ding an sich, as Kant put it. Show me truly predictive models if you want to effect giant changes.
And besides, if CO2 producting techniques are so awful, why not go nuclear?
Anyway, best wishes to all.
Simon Jester (e57b35) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:20 pmCarlitos, the earth has no “status quo”!
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:21 pmElissa, check out the figure:
http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/virtualmuseum/climatechange2/07_1.shtml
Simon Jester (e57b35) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:25 pm“It isn’t a matter of “interpreting words.””
– Steve57
carlitos makes the point that people can interpret words to mean whatever they want them to mean.
Seeking (somehow) to prove carlitos wrong, Steve asks carlitos if he went to an “Ivy League school.” carlitos says “I went to Northwestern.” Steve says “That comes close enough to my description to work.”
Priceless.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:27 pmYes. Thank you, too, Simon Jester@310.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:34 pmSimon – that is too science-y for Teh Narrative.
I would also be more easily persuaded if the cures for global warming weren’t the same as the ones for global cooling, and I am sure that it is a mere coincidence that the cures closely align with collectivist claptrap over the years.
JD (9cad5d) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:43 pmOK, how about “status quo ante” – like what it was before humans evolved. Or 2,000 years ago, maybe. I don’t think that acknowledging our carbon-forcing is ego driven; it seems like common sense to me.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:47 pmJD, I think much of it has to do with human-centric narcissism.
No, we shouldn’t fill the world with garbage and not overpopulate.
But…I’m with The Preacher (or to my friend nk, Ἐκκλησιαστής).
That’s me.
Simon Jester (e57b35) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:52 pmcarlitos,
Are you dismissing all arguments against climate change simply because they contradict your views, or only WattsUpWithThat? If you’re open to other views, you might look at Steve Goreham’s website. He also links other websites here, where you may find one you can trust.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:56 pmI would also like to know the optimal global average temperature, and if we are moving towards it, or away from it.
JD (9cad5d) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:57 pmYes, it is. So he didn’t go to Harvard, he went to Northwestern. And unlike our Preezy (and yours) his advanced degree wasn’t a JD. It was an MBA.
But Orwell’s larger point still stands. Anybody can make a one-off error. But to consistently misinterpret the world in a particular way takes an indoctrination. And this consistent pattern of error is the mark of a western university level-indoctrination.
Of course there’s nothing unique about Islam that makes it different (and more violent) than other religions. The point of the indoctrination is to lead you to that conclusion. Any other conclusion might imply that western civilization is in some respects superior to a non-Western civilization. And we can’t be having any of that, can we?
“Good” people know that all cultures are morally equivalent. Except western culture, which is uniquely abhorrent whenever you can go beyond making the case it’s just as bad. When confronted with evidence that runs counter to this indoctrination, “good” people reject the evidence that doesn’t conform to what their training allows them to accept.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:07 pmIs this website off-limits, too, carlitos? Let me know which websites are acceptable to you, so I can save myself some time.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:09 pmTop-tier business schools are notoriously hostile to Western civilization. I remember one time, at a no nukes rally, I saw Milt Friedman in a Che Guevara t shirt.
carlitos (69dda1) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:12 pmYou certainly weren’t exposed to anything that would cause you to question your indoctrination about the moral equivalency of Christianity and Islam, were you, carlitos?
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:16 pmThese cartoons are a nice gesture, but they fall short of the courage demonstrated by the cartoonists who were killed in that NONE OF THEM depict Muhammad. If you really want to defy the killers, this is what you need to do.
Tony (2a43e2) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:16 pmActually, it isn’t the moral difference between the two that’s important at this moment. It’s understanding the unique attributes of Islam that causes its adherents to kill over things that a Lutheran or a Buddhist would not.
But then, if you are constitutionally incapable of looking at any particular religion as if it had unique attributes then you’ll fail to pick up on what you’ve been convinced don’t exist.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:20 pmMark – if someone urged me to boycott stores owned by Christians because of a presumption that Christians must be anti-gay, then yes, I would express an opinion that such a boycott is wrong.
One of the fundamental principles of western liberalism is that people should be judged *as individuals*. I view that as applying not just to the judgment of the state; I think that I have a responsibility to judge individuals as individuals, and not to impute negative motives to them as a result of the actions of others.
I’m human, so I fail at this, and you’re right that I’m more likely to fail at this when dealing with people who are affiliated with those who actively oppose my interests; but that’s a normal human failing, and I do what I can to mitigate it.
—
I don’t know how I’d tell if a bodega is owned by an islamic fundamentalist revolutionary as opposed to a run of the mill muslim. The only way I’d know that a bodega was run by an anti-gay Christian activist, as opposed to a run of the mill Christian, is if something or someone called my attention to that fact. I imagine the same is true for anyone who was an islamic fundamentalist revolutionary.
But, again, just as I would not want to prejudge that “christian = antigay activist”, neither would I want to prejudge that “muslim = islamic fundamentalist revolutionary”.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:21 pmNorthwestern almost was an Ivy League school in the 1970s-80s. I remember that because I was in school during part of that time period.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:21 pmMilton Friedman was for Che and against nuclear power plants? I have a hard time with both of those thoughts. Friedman believed in freedom. He might be against government subsidies for nuclear power plants but he wouldn’t be against the plants themselves. Nor can I see Friedman intending to support a Marxist like Che.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:28 pmHe’s being facetious, DRJ.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:30 pmFriedman/che is an attempt at a joke I’m pretty sure, DRJ.
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:30 pmWelcome to my world, DRJ. I have always tried to be a good scientist. I smell a whole nest of statist central planning rodents with all of this.
Simon Jester (e57b35) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:31 pmThe ocean acidification business, I mean.
Simon Jester (e57b35) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:31 pmThat’s a relief. I don’t know why sarcasm escapes me online because I get it in person.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:33 pmThe ocean acidification article was a shock to me, even though it shouldn’t be after the hockey stick debacle.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:34 pmAgain, DRJ, I worry—so very much—when science and politics have an intellectual child.
The Paul Ehrlich business is SO very instructive. There is a collective amnesia about his nonsense in the 70s and 80s versus what happened. And John Holdren (now in the White House) was right there with him.
There is such a lockstep psychology involved. It’s scary.
Simon Jester (e57b35) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:36 pmyou get speechified on how Islam is just like Christianity.
The socio-political dynamics in this society have grown so ridiculous, that what would have once been quickly interpreted as humor or sarcasm is increasingly easy to mistake as a literal description.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:37 pmI know why I reacted the way I did. There was a time I would have agreed that top-tier business schools are conservative, and I think they’re still more conservative than the humanities departments at most universities. But I’m not sure they can be called conservative. As this article explains, even the top business schools are moving toward the liberal arts method of training students.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:42 pmI ran into this with my son, who was in a top-tier business school. They aren’t the bastion of capitalists they used to be.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:43 pmI was in school during the height of the Paul Erhlich and Rachel Carson years. I fell for it. Students would undoubtedly fall for today’s version, since it’s sold to them as gospel.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:45 pmThe only way I’d know that a bodega was run by an anti-gay Christian activist, as opposed to a run of the mill Christian, is if something or someone called my attention to that fact. I imagine the same is true for anyone who was an islamic fundamentalist revolutionary.
aphrael, is your choice of words, such as “revolutionary,” a sign of a subtle desire on your part to hold the Islamicist to a lower, looser standard? IOW, why not just also label a person you’re trying to gauge, either pro or con, as an “anti-gay Islamic activist?”
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:47 pmDRJ, I have Ehrlich stories to share over email.
Simon Jester (e57b35) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:50 pmThey aren’t the bastion of capitalists they used to be.
I’m sure when they see successful tycoons like a Michael Bloomberg or Warren Buffett, they’re even more likely to fall for the ethos of “limousine liberalism.”
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:50 pmThat’s precisely the point I’m making about the left’s proud refusal to learn anything about Islam. That lockstep psychology didn’t just happen. At Hot Air they remind us of this statement of Obama’s:
Which is of course meaningless nonsense. But meaningless nonsense represents the state of the art in what passes for deep thinking on the left. And in that respects it mirrors the left’s take on AGW.
It isn’t just that leftists avoid asking the meaningful questions. It’s that they have such an intentionally superficial veneer of understanding of the subject at hand they don’t even know what the meaningful questions are.
And they’re proud of it.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:56 pmMark – I’m trying to highlight the comparison *you* seem to be asking me to make.
You’re comparing “islamicist” to “so-called WASP conservatives” and asking if I’d treat the “so-called WASP conservatives” worse than i’d treat the “islamicist”.
I’m simply restating what I understand *your* selected phrases to mean. If the comparison is unequal, then the inequality stemmed from your phrasing.
aphrael (e0cdc9) — 1/8/2015 @ 2:59 pmIndeed. How about Charlotte Beers at a Code Pink rally? Michael Porter carrying Mao’s little red book? David Aaker stuck up a tree for Greenpeace?
My “indoctrination” is something you made up of whole cloth, buddy. You are doing a dynamite job of bayoneting a straw man, though. Why not read the actual words I wrote at 11:50 and give it another try?
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:02 pmYes, I know. Which is why there’s more truth in carlitos’ attempt at humor @319 then he knows. Just like there’s more truth in this statement of Howard Dean’s than he knows.
http://hotair.com/archives/2015/01/07/howard-dean-these-terrorists-are-about-as-muslim-as-i-am/
Given that Islam means submission, and a Muslim is one who submits, it’s in fact true that the terrorists are about as “Muslim” as he is.
The Quran and the Sunnah literature makes a distinction between submission to Islam and understanding it. What Islam demands is obedience. It is in fact to be a Muslim and not actually a believer; Muhammad says so himself in the hadiths.
In the same way the left demands submission to the rigid psychological lockstep SJ mentioned earlier. Just like Islam, what the left demands is outward compliance in deed and speech.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:04 pmcarlitos, did you to some fancy-pants Midwestern near-Ivy? I’m pretty sure you must have gone to some fancy-pants Midwestern near-Ivy, to have opinions like the opinions you have in my mind.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:06 pmSorry. Enough already. Moving on.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:07 pmI commented “What you’re saying is that God had no point. He was just spitting out a word salad that can be used to justify anything that you were going to do anyway.”
And you responded, “Bingo. Replace “God” with “dudes who wrote this stuff” and we are in total agreement. That’s exactly how religious texts have been used throughout history.”
But of course we’re not in agreement. You’re flat wrong, as evidence proves.
Would you like change your story now?
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:10 pmLeviticus,
The ocean acidification article I linked above is about an impressive University of New Mexico doctoral student. I mentioned it to you the other day because it involved UNM, but I don’t think you saw it. You can be proud of your school for producing people who don’t back down — come to think of it, I could say the same about you.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:10 pmIf I made it up, why are you living it?
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:11 pmAbout the author of that article:
I am extremely skeptical of motivational speakers and authors. They are mostly snake oil salesmen, from what I have seen, and this is no exception. (no pun intended) According to her linkedin profile, this person was self-employed for 30 years as a “full service agency for the aspiring Christian speaker and publisher” and now she’s writing about ocean acidification.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:12 pmNot even that. I went to the night school at the crappy downtown campus. Now they have a shiny new building, but back then it was unimpressive. The dental school across the street did have some ivy, though.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:14 pmYou are actually arguing against the idea that religious text have been historically used to justify all kinds of behavior? Seriously? Wow. Ever heard of the Crusades? Fatwas? Kosher delis?
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:15 pm271. His study showed that there was a maximum of 3 millimeters of sea level rise in some locales around the world
3 millimeters per year. That’s correct. It’s more like 2 1/2, or 1 inch per decade. That’s not all that much. I suppose in Bangladesh the delta makes up for the rise in the sea level.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:17 pmcarlitos,
That link was about a University of New Mexico doctoral student she interviewed:
However, I’m glad to know you discredit any information that comes from any source you find unreliable.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe Mike Wallace isn’t an hydrologist with 30 years experience and maybe he hasn’t uncovered an important data omission by established scientists. It’s a relief to know that scientists instinctively know what the truth is without inquiring about inconvenient claims.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:22 pmSo, once again, what websites do you find reliable so I can look there?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:23 pmI made a pork roast (with olive oil, rosemary, garlic, oregano and lemon) today, if that counts. (Says meekly in a staunch but quiet American Christian voice.)
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:23 pmOh, and that last sentence was sarcasm in 353.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:23 pm102.5 FM, your Coyote Radio serving the greater ABQ metropolitan area.
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:26 pmIf Mike Wallace wishes to publish something meaningful, he should do so in the scientific literature and subject his findings to peer review. Speaking with motivational speakers is not how science works.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:26 pmI would also like to know the optimal global average temperature, and if we are moving towards it, or away from it.
JD (9cad5d) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:57 pm
72 degrees F, with a 7mph breeze out of the West…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:29 pmScience works by asking questions, and that’s what he’s done. I don’t ask you believe him. I simply wondered if it makes you curious, but it doesn’t so we’ll move on.
Please tell me what websites you find reliable.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:30 pmCarlitos, the earth has no “status quo”!
elissa (486ef4) — 1/8/2015 @ 1:21 pm
Wrong. Great little band… “Pictures of Matchstick Men” and “Rockin’ All Over Teh World”…
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:33 pm“The ocean acidification article I linked above is about an impressive University of New Mexico doctoral student. I mentioned it to you the other day because it involved UNM, but I don’t think you saw it. You can be proud of your school for producing people who don’t back down — come to think of it, I could say the same about you.”
– DRJ
Thanks, DRJ. I don’t know about me, far as backing down goes, but I read the link when you first posted it and was certainly proud of the UNM doctoral student for persisting to seek data in light of threats about the trajectory of his career. Down with the Establishment, right?
Anyway, I try to stay out of the AGW debate now. I’ve realized I don’t understand the science well enough. The greenhouse effect makes sense to me, but everytime I mention it there comes a deluge of comments pointing out myriad complicating factors that discuss science that is above my head and beyond my interest. Humanity isn’t gonna last long enough for global warming to kill us, anyway.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:36 pmWhat about this BBC report or the reports by the NIPCC? Are these acceptable, or are they unacceptable?
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:38 pmThe Camper Van Beethoven version of “Matchstick Men” is pretty cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAkcSd5l9Qg
DRJ – Ask yourself, doesn’t it make you curious that the sources cited in the anti-global warming camp are people like James Watt (a weatherman), the motivational speaker you just linked, or charlatans like Christopher Monckton? Why the lack of independent scientists or experts in the field?
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:39 pmLeviticus:
Exactly. He’s pursuing data that may or may not undermine the AGW claims, and I don’t care how it turns out. What matters is his commitment to the truth. I admire that.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:39 pm“He’s pursuing data that may or may not undermine the AGW claims, and I don’t care how it turns out.”
– DRJ
From the sound of things, it’s not like he set out to undermine anything – he just wanted to see a relevant data set, and got suspicious when the folks who had it tried to hide the ball. So, he was being stubbornly inquisitive. I admire that as well.
Leviticus (f9a067) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:41 pmThe NIPCC? Surely you can spot astro-turf when you see it, DRJ!!! My God.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:42 pmFirst, experts are wrong about a lot of things, and history is replete with examples of the foolish things experts believed. Second, more and more experts are starting to question the orthodoxy. Third, your experts seem to hate to reveal their data, and that makes me not trust them — probably as much as you don’t trust motivational speakers. Finally, fourth, it isn’t the status that impresses me, it’s the argument. My belief is that most things in life can be understood by reasonably intelligent people. Global warming believers have to rely on a lot of emotional evidence (like dying polar bears and threats of massive floods/disasters) to make people believe their point of view. That’s not science.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:45 pmcarlitos,
I’ve repeatedly asked you to tell me what websites you will accept. Stop insulting me and tell me who you trust, so I can talk to you on terms you will accept.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:46 pmNot bad, carlitos… it’s Slinky!!!
Colonel Haiku (2601c0) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:51 pmi love the erf so much but climate change is just a new adventure
no sense getting all marxist over it
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:53 pmWhy the lack of independent scientists or experts in the field?
Because they get fired, blacklisted, and their publication submissions get put in the circular file if they dissent from the orthodoxy?
No, I did not miss the word “independent”. Which GWBs (not to be confused with the 43rd President) have independent means?
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:57 pmDRJ 368
Yep
Newcomb the brilliant astro physicist whose calculations hundreds of years ago are the basis of space flight – declared that man would never fly
EPWJ (acb2d0) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:57 pmI first asked carlitos to name the websites he trusts at 2:09 PM California time. It’s almost 4 PM and he’s posted several comments since then — including some to me — but he hasn’t provided any acceptable websites or resources. Thus, I assume carlitos won’t respond to my request so I’m through with this conversation.
Well played, carlitos. I actually believed you were interested in a real discussion.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:57 pmI would trust anything in the scientific literature, I suppose. Do a google scholar search for whatever topic. I certainly didn’t mean to insult you, but seriously? The Heartland Institute added an “H” in front of IPCC. Come on. Why don’t you do 2 minutes of googling on whatever sources you cite, just to improve the signal to noise ratio.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:57 pmI forgot the details, but I read something recently about Holdren’s views that was pretty incredible.
Indeed, in-credible as the discussion earlier about how even the Jews in Europe to a large degree could not imagine the demonic evil of the Nazi’s, and likely many of the German people went along likewise totally oblivious to the reality surrounding them.
Long ago and far away I remember reading a book by Koestler titled The Sleepwalkers; his basic thesis was that many great scientific discoveries were not so much the product of brilliant minds seeking out to find what they discovered, but people who stumbled onto things often without understanding the implications.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 3:58 pmThere are times it seems a lot of us are “sleepwalking” much if not most of the time;
or as Paul of Simon said, “working our jobs, collecting our pay, and think we’re gliding down the highway when in fact we are slip sliding away…”
==Well played, carlitos. I actually believed you were interested in a real discussion.==
You should have asked me (or JD). We could have told you he wasn’t interested in a real climate change discussion, DRJ. Also, Simon has provided multiple studies and scientific sites today and other days to Carlitos. Crickets. I thought Steve57 was being a jerk to Carlitos today and told him so. But I don’t think Carlitos has exactly covered himself in glory here today, either.
elissa (f9db24) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:05 pmSorry, DRJ. I was hoping to get you to at least slightly reconsider your sources. Here’s a short list.
http://climate.nasa.gov/blog
http://geology.com/
http://www.newscientist.com/topic/climate-change
http://www.skepticalscience.com/
http://www.climatecentral.org/
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming
http://www.climatewatch.org.au/
http://www.ipcc.ch/index.htm#.Ubc5Adhi1NI
http://ncse.com/climate?gclid=CLT2_bPa2rcCFYYWMgoddU4A5w
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:05 pmI maintain my point that there is no need for you or I to become scientific experts at this field. A simple course in epistemology would tell you that AGW is real.
I did Google, carlitos. My comment provided two links that IMO represented two ends of a continuum of thought, and I asked which you believed. It’s obvious you don’t believe NIPCC but what about the BBC link? I was asking you a question to find out who you trust since you wouldn’t take the time to tell me. You responded like I’m an ignorant child and, frankly, I was offended by how you spoke to me. That’s another reason why I’m not interested in continuing this discussion.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:05 pmI missed those discussion and I’m disappointed, elissa, because I thought carlitos came here to talk. I guess he comes here to be mean or to vent, and that’s his prerogative, but I’m still disappointed to learn this about him.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:07 pm375.I would trust anything in the scientific literature, I suppose.
Good thing I wasn’t drinking hot coffee.
I guess for one you have no idea about the problem of academic fraud and how the careers of even Nobel prize winners have been destroyed by people falsifying data.
For two I guess you must not consider med school faculty scientists or the New England Journal of Medicine scientific literature, as I’ve said before, put an issue of the NEJM in front of a room of academic docs and it’s like hungry football players at a steak house, critically looking over every little thing.
And then the same people read Time magazine and assume it is all correct.
You have an unwarranted belief in the moral superiority of “scientists”.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:08 pmDRJ – my links got moderated.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:08 pmthat happens to me a lot
i couldn’t get a single one of my nunporn links to post
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:10 pmThat’s like me saying I would trust anything a lawyer, or an MBA, wrote just because he/she was a lawyer or had an MBA.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:11 pmOh no, not the Tibetan Buddhist nun ones, too?
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:11 pmi’m just having no luck across the board
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:13 pmElissa and DRJ…see how it works? It’s kind of a religion. That’s the power of Teh Narrative. And folks on the Right sure have their own narrative, as well. It is something we all…including me!…need to watch out for.
I continue to shake my head that folks just change the subject when I bring up back-predictive models. And then get snide. Amazing.
Also, when Freeman Dyson (who, like a good scientist, is not concerned with what he wants to be true, and states that warming may in fact be happening) suggested that computer models by their nature are not reliable, the Usual Suspects started calling him senile, etc.
It sure smells like a religion to me.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:13 pmAnd many things I’ve read at WUWT and other places you would never visit are references and discussions of things in the scientific literature as the point of departure for discussion, for those of us not subscribing to a dozen or more proliferating journals. In fact that was the case with what I linked once before. I was just linking the source where I saw the diagrams, instead of linking the original articles.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:18 pmMD, I had to laugh when I read your comment. I am a scientist, and I believe that the words “I don’t know” are very, very important in science. Yet many of my colleagues really don’t like saying those words.
As good old Sam Clemens wrote:
There is also a great book out I recommend.
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/28/being-wrong-kathryn-schulz-review
I don’t agree with all of it, but it’s an important warning.
If you don’t have time, the TED talk is pretty good.
http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong?language=en
Thanks as always. I did get your e-mail, and will reply when I get a chance.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:20 pmI never appealed to the “moral” superiority of scientists. Scientific or technical authority, on the other hand…why wouldn’t you ask a scientist about something scientific?
DRJ, I didn’t realize you were posting a range. You linked 2 articles above – one by a Christian publicist, and one BBC link that had nothing to do with global warming. MD and daleyrocks usually link to Anthony Watt, a college dropout weatherman. I’m not sure what I’m supposed to do. When I follow the links, I get bupkus. For example, this is from one of Simon’s links above, my emphasis added:
What is he disagreeing with here, regarding the AGW hypothesis?
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:23 pmIndeed, Simon, the nerve of a scientist arguing for the superiority of real data instead of computer models.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:26 pmI guess one could just admit that the computers are limited by the smarts of the people that program them, and as soon as we get AI and the computers can program themselves they will get it right.
One reading of the History of Science says that it was the Judeo-Christian belief in a created order by an intelligent creator that gave predictability to the natural world that made science possible, and the importance of observing nature.
A friend of mine has been working among a people in South Sudan who are still really functionally animistic in their approach to life. Very little effort to problem solve anything. If the car doesn’t start it is because someone put a curse on it, not that it ran out of gas. (Not a literal example, but it is representative of the idea.)
Um…carlitos? I kind of am a scientist. And I am not the only one who posts here.
Note that CO2 levels have been MUCH higher in history than today. You will see some of the zealots try to hide this fact, but talk to a geologist.
And guess what? The freaking climate models don’t scale, don’t predict, etc.
You have been very rude to DRJ recently, and you don’t have the right.
I recommend you go take Climate Communion and wait for NPR to tell you what to believe.
Or you could…oh, I don’t know…analyze some data and talk to some scientists.
But you won’t be popular. And that’s waaaay more important than the truth.
Seriously, dude: rude.
Simon Jester (c8876d) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:28 pmMaybe think about what I wrote instead of a kneejerk reaction.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:29 pmAfter much dealing with believers in the Cult of whatever-the-%#%-they-are-calling-it-today, I have fallen back on simpler examples of easily observable, replicable science … the data either supports a hypothesis or it doesn’t …
Sea level rise hypothesis refutation – sea levels round the planet at observable points are not and have not been significantly rising – I can still harvest cockles at Shian … elissa’s ancestral older bolder polders still seem to be effective …
When someone considers the source of information to be more significant than the actual underlying data, that someone has outed him/herself as closed-minded …
Alastor (2e7f9f) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:30 pmif they want to cool the planet we know a ton of ways to do that without throwing wrenches into individual liberties and free enterprise
i find the global warming panic people very unserious
if they were serious they would be pro-nuclear energy
if they were serious they’d embrace geo-engineerings
if they were serious they’d study albedo-enhancing construction and design techniques
what is not serious is telling me not to have a tasty italian beef sammich because the erf is too warm
what is not serious is putting oil on trains instead of a pipeline cause we have to save the erf
what is not serious is telling me that china’s agreement to maybe one day stop increasing the amount of CO2 they produce is a milestone of progress that will help us cool the erf
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:32 pmMr. carlitos is not rude he’s Mr. carlitos
rude people are really startling cause they’re super rare to find in real life unless you’re a waiter or whatever
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:34 pmAs I suspected the third man, who turned himself in, is probably innocent. He was a brotehr-in-law of one of them or something. he was apparently in school at the time of the attack. Who put him on the list, Inspector Clouseau?
The two brothers are descriobed as orphans who grew up in foster care. Which means they probably got no religious training and so were vulnerable to someone who told them what their religion was, because all this stuff is really new.
The younger one is better known to authorities because he was arrested in 2005 for recruiting people to go fight in Iraq but he may be the less important one. He worked as a pizza delivery man and was involved with rap music. Both were on the U.S. no-fly and terrorism lists. The older one was in Yemen in 2011.
They robbed a gas station almost 24 hours afetr their attack – 10:30 am in France. That’s where they were last seen.
Sammy Finkelman (d22d64) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:43 pmcarlitos:
I asked you,
I think you should have answered my question by telling me if these were acceptable or unacceptable to you. Since you never responded to my requests for acceptable websites/resources, I was forced to offer you a range of websites (in several comments) in order to figure out what you find acceptable and what you find unacceptable. You’ve made it abundantly clear what you don’t like but until you mentioned “anything in the scientific literature” (which is fairly broad) and “Google Scholar,” you never said what you would accept.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:46 pmcarlitos,
And happyfeet is right. carlitos isn’t rude, he’s just being carlitos. I was offended because I was disappointed but that’s my problem, not yours. We can agree to disagree … and agree not to talk.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:49 pmDRJ, if I was rude, I apologize. I generally am working during the day, and flip back and forth to this page. I probably was frustrated with Steve57’s idiocy and let that get the better of me. Sorry.
Again, my links post was moderated, probably because of the … Links.
And I’m off to bake some cod with veggies. Neither are organic or from whole foods.
Simon / MD, your points are very general. I don’t feel the need to learn every nuance of this subject, much as I don’t need to know physics to span a bridge or take a flight. Your position seems to be the opposite of mine, and I’m not sure why.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:56 pm== elissa’s ancestral older bolder polders still seem to be effective …==
heh, Alastor- I think not too many people could have worked the word “polders” into a sentence! And in a rhyme to boot. You are obviously a man with a broad and precise vocabulary at your ready. Well done.
https://www.wordnik.com/words/polder
elissa (f9db24) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:15 pmHistorian Bernard Lewis has written at length on the problem that Islam does not recognize the concept of individual human rights. There is NO history of that idea in the Muslim Middle East until some faint European influences in the 18th Century, influences that are largely dismissed with scorn and contempt then and now.
Let Islam reform first. Only–ONLY–after it has radically reformed should it be permitted in the West. Until then, it should be treated with the same tolerance and respect as would be given to acolytes of Mussolini and Hitler who wish to immigrate.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:15 pmYou’re comparing “islamicist” to “so-called WASP conservatives” and asking if I’d treat the “so-called WASP conservatives” worse than i’d treat the “islamicist”.
I’m simply restating what I understand *your* selected phrases to mean. If the comparison is unequal, then the inequality stemmed from your phrasing.
aphrael, I’m just trying to see if subtle word usage on the part of a person is a form of a Fruedian slip. For instance, I admit that I won’t be quite as impassioned in condemning fundamentalist Christians compared with fundamentalist Islamicists, and my wording and phrasing often reflect that. But that’s also in the context of the 21st century, in the context of the differences between Christ and Mohammed, and in the context of the truly ruthless, diabolical aspects of too many sectors of the world of Islam (eg, the policies and practices of Saudi Arabia).
I’m also totally confident in saying that if a woman who has had horrible experiences with, for example, the Westbro Baptist Church were selected to be a speaker at, say, Brandeis University, and I was a member of that school, I sure as hell wouldn’t protest her being chosen to address the faculty and students and the furthering of her message.
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:19 pm167. Oh dear, the mindless would prefer not observe me and others castigate the remainder for their hopeless endeavor of reproving your incubus.
I am so, so hurt and admonished.
DNF (3577df) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:25 pmLink at 389. You mean Ross Gelbspan never actually bothered to check if Donella Meadows was pregnant? It probably was too hard.
Miller actually I think claimed he was right, sort of. The Seventh day Adventiosts and Jehovah’s witnesses cane out of them.
Hans Blix was never in a position to know whether Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction – and he acted like he did. In fact, that was probably part of his strategy for avoiding an onvasion. He knew the belief in the possibility of him having ready to use chemical weapons meant the U.s. soldiers had to wear chemical warfare gear, and that meant that an onvasion could not take place after about April 1 because of the heat, and Bush went right up to the deadline, and Saddam Hussein knew the U.S. war plans involved an invasion from Turkey, and his ace in the hole was he knew (because he bribed them) that the Turkish Parliament would pull the rug out from Bush. Only it turned out, Bush didn’t really need to invade from Turkey, and he went ahead anyway!! Saddam Hussein’s own generals thought he had chemical weapons, only each one thought some other unit had it. Saddam Hussein, if had any, got rid of his chemical weapons, so aht there was no chance they could be found, and he sent them to Syria. This was all probably on Putin’s advice.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:36 pmMuslims kill people because they won’t take orders from them. Course, maybe they define anyone as their enemy who won’t take orders from them…
Gerald A (d65c67) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:37 pmI mean Saddam Hussein acted like he did (have chemical weapons) He acted like he was hiding chemical weapons.
He probably believed that wasn’t Bush real or most important reason for wasnting to invade Iraq – so if Bush was convinced he had them, he wouldn’t invade after he (Saddam) had gotten the Turkish Parliament to pull the rug out from under him. But if Bush believed he didn’t have chemcical weapons, he would invade.
I don’t think it was merely Iran that Saddam wanted to convince that he had chemical weapons, but Bush and Rumsfeld too, because it greatly handicapped the U.S. military.
At the time time he wanted every body else besides Bush and Rumsfeld and maybe Iran to think he didn’t have chemical weapons.
————————————-
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:32 pm
“if the global warming panic people….were serious….they’d embrace geo-engineerings”
No, the only thing permitted by their religion is NOT releasing more carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:45 pmUsing satellite data, which only goes back to 1979, 2014 was not the warmest year. In other words, it wasn’t the warmest year since 1979, let alone 1891, based on satellite data, which is superior to ground based temperature measurements.
Also the ground based temperature data is put through mysterious “adjustments” at GISS and NOAA. I don’t know what JMA does.
Gerald A (d65c67) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:46 pmThe policeman killed outside on the street in Paris yesterday was a Moslem.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:47 pmDRJ “I was in school during the height of the Paul Erhlich and Rachel Carson years.”
Ah, yes. Remember the Club of Rome horse sh*t of the 1970’s? We’re going to run out of such minerals as iron and copper and aluminum in a decade or two, after which we will all simultaneously starve to death and freeze to death in the dark. Those confident predictions sure worked out, didn’t they? And the wisdom of “the scientific community” has only declined since then as it has become more corrupted by letfist politics and amoral grant-hungry careerism.
pst314 (ae6bd1) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:47 pmMaybe, but the Koran isn’t being twisted in any way when it’s used to justify violence.
Gerald A (d65c67) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:51 pmcarlitos,
I think you are the kind of person who appreciates directness and honesty, and I offer this in that spirit.
It seems like you believe any discussion of man-made climate change — global warming, or is it global cooling? — is a waste of time, because you believe it’s a fact. You seem to feel this is the equivalent of trying to convince someone that the sun sets in the west, or gravity exists, or the earth is round. Your comments suggest to me that you believe the pervasive effects/threat of man-made climate change is so scientifically settled and obvious that only a child or an ignorant adult would doubt it.
But I do doubt it, and I think others here doubt it, too. I’m not willing to say I know man-made climate change is a hoax, but I certainly don’t know what the truth is. I think it’s reasonable to question claims about man-made climate change, and to want to see the data that supports the claims it’s a grave threat and we should spend a lot of money to deal with it. Of course, if I thought this was something no reasonable person could disagree with, then maybe I would treat discussions like this with the same disdain you’ve shown.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:54 pmAnd they have worked very hard for years to make any kind of geo-engineering illegal and in violation of treaties.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 5:54 pmwell they’d be really wise to think of solutions what didn’t require my cooperation
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:07 pmIt’s there there’s been some global warming. It’s true that carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere have gone up a lot since probably 1860. It’s not true that there is one to one relationship between them, nor that CO2 is the only thing that could affect climate, nor that there is any reason to suspect a tipping point, nor that it is reasonable to stop releasing carbon dioxide, nor that we have any idea how much CO2 is actually beng released because warming probably causes the amount of CO2 to rise, nor that there are not other ways to counteract the effect of warming.
Nor even that warming is a net bad thing, nor that there’s no other way to deal with storms and hurricanes except to keep CO2 in the atmosphere as low as possible, nor that it doesn’t make a great deal more sense to adapt to anything, nor that any of the proposed measures will do anything significant.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:10 pm411- The recently released data from studies of the Warm Periods that bracket the beginning of CE certainly seem to throw some doubt on man’s ability to influence global climate/temperature.
askeptic (efcf22) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:12 pmThe data shows that those three periods were all warmer than today, and this includes data from ancient Chinese manuscripts and studies of reefs in the Western Pacific.
A westerly wind drifts the snow off the rooftops
nk (dbc370) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:14 pmAnd on to the streets
Snow plows burn hydrocarbons in futile efforts
Too cold for the salt to melt the slush
Not a warm globe peeking out through a mini skirt
To be seen from the girls going to the bar
I warm mine against the radiator
I think Mr. Feets has pretty much nailed it:
Angelo (c5d205) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:18 pmPopular mythos is that its a fact, ergo: everybody don’t, just don’t do it and we will make you pay regardless. We don’t offer solutions, we aren’t proactive, we say don’t and extort your money. Now pay up or else.
414. happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:07 pm
Keeping pil and gas in the ground wouldn’t require that much co-operation, but they prefer taxes, and carbon trading.
The whole cult is very, very particular and, although it wants governments to pass laws, it wants things were what individuals do matter.
The purpose is not to prevent global warming or anything like that. The purpose is to absolve people of guilt for damaging the earth’s climate. It doesn’t matter what happens. What matters is being able to say: Don’t blame me!
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:18 pmsee there’s a LOT you can do to add more carbons to the whirl
1. Don’t throw away that empty bottle! Fill it up with water first, silly. It makes your trash way way heavier, requiring many more resources to dispose of.
2. DO throw away any stray bricks, concrete chunks, rocks, etc you may find.
3. Take a walk! Particularly at rush hour, when you can walk in front of many many idling vehicles that would otherwise be turning left were you not taking your daily constitutional.
4. Push that button! And that one. And that one. If you’re going to the 9th floor on an elevator, before you get off, push the button for the tippy top floor, and several others as well! How many electricities does it take to lift a gigantic steel box all the way to the top of a building?
Probably like a million, if I had to guess.
5. Waste some water! Lots of times water isn’t metered, but people forget how much electricity it takes to pump water to where you can waste it. Bonus points for wasting water on the top floor of the building in example #4.
6. Don’t use that disposal! Disposals put unwanted food and such into the sewer, where it floats more or less effortlessly to where it’s to be treated. Instead, use a fuel-burning truck to dispose of that waste!
7. Tropical fish are a great hobby! Buy a fish tank for a friend! And a juicer! Juicers are the #1 most water-intensive appliance on the planet.
ok that’s a good start
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:40 pmoops
I think #3 should be turning *right*
happyfeet (831175) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:41 pmBy the way, carlitos, this article in Nature is why I linked the earlier BBC article about the Sun, as well as the article about the University of New Mexico graduate student who researches ocean acidification, that you (ironically) likened to “noise:”
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:49 pmThe ten warmest years on record have occurred since 1983, seven of them since 1990. Global temperature in 1998 was the hottest in the historical record.
This is from the same sources that claim 2014 was the warmest on record.
This amount of overall increase in temperature is approximately equal to the amount of increase that is predicted by raising the abundance of carbon dioxide by one third of pre-industrial values — exactly what has happened in the last 150 years.
carlitos (c24ed5) — 1/8/2015 @ 4:23 pm
He gives no source for this claim. What model specifically is he referring to? Based on what I’ve read the various temperature models do not correspond to actual observed temperatures. That in fact is why the warmists have started saying the warming pause is due to the oceans absorbing the heat. It’s an admission that temperatures are not behaving according to their models. Nor do the various models agree with each other.
Gerald A (d65c67) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:52 pmHas he ever whipped out the omnipresent 97% thing?
Gerald A (d65c67) — 1/8/2015 @ 6:57 pmI didn’t realize it before, but carlitos recently said he had posted a comment with several links that is stuck in the filter. He probably provided more details or context in that comment.
DRJ (a83b8b) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:00 pmHere is the satellite data and a plot of it from their site, the horses’ mouth, if you will.
http://www.remss.com/blog/recent-slowing-rise-global-temperatures
I found this by following the links at PowerLine listed above and at WUWT (linked by PowerLine).
The difference between that graph and the ones at PL and WUWT have to do with the time range, and more importantly, the opining accompanying the graph. They all agree (they have to, same data) that for the last 18 years plus there has been no discernible change in the earth’s temperature.
We “deniers” are a very simple lot, we believe that in science one makes a hypothesis, gathers information, and then compares the observation with what was predicted. What has been predicted has not occurred over the last 18 years. We conclude that since the observations of the last 18 years have not been consistent with the hypothesis, perhaps the hypothesis isn’t “established science” after all. It sure doesn’t look established.
The proponents, including those who run the site and the satellite data gathering system, offer a list of reasons why maybe the hypothesis is right anyway but there are other factors having an effect, but they don’t know exactly what is going on…
Um, the main point we “deniers” have had all along is that there is not adequate understanding of the systems involved and enough data to be so dogmatic about their predictions, sort of seems they kind of agree with that (but not enough to change their foregone conclusion).
Now, in the defense of the hypothesis (i.e., otherwise known as “settled science”) on the primary site, among the things said are the following (alert, turn on irony meter):
Also, a philosophical comment — often, we are predisposed to the position that a given effect is due to a single cause. Part of the reason for this is probably human nature. We like to distill complex things into simple stories or parables. The other part is that for most of the science courses we take in school, simple experiments are presented that demonstrate the fundamental ideas in the topic under study. Single causes are often the case in laboratory experiments — these experiments are usually designed to isolate a single causative effect. In “real-world” science, such as the study of Earth’s climate, things are very unlikely to be as clear cut. Instead, each observed “effect” will be due to the combination of numerous causes. My point is that I do not expect the disagreement between models and observations over the past 15 years to be due to a single cause. It is much more likely to be due to some combination of the possible causes listed below.
So, is he really saying, that while we (well, not “we”, but “he” and others) think the earth is warming in a consistent manner and that it is entirely due to the single cause of manmade CO2 emissions, that if that hypothesis doesn’t seem to be borne out by the data there are a combination of causes interfering with what is expected??
Brain trust, I ask you, is that a fair rendering of what he is saying? In other words, they get to make it as simple as they want when it suits them, and as complicated as they want when that is what suits them?
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:09 pmTher foregone conclusion…that strong action is needed immediately!
Action, that, according to their own models will not much affect what happens.
But you have to start somewhere. And maybe there’s a tipping point.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:13 pmThe data shows that those three periods were all warmer than today, and this includes data from ancient Chinese manuscripts and studies of reefs in the Western Pacific.
But such information is blasphemous to the devout members of the Church of Anthropogenic Global Warming.
What makes such true believers really irritating is they demand we all give donations — that we all tithe — to their “church,” in the form of nonsensical taxes and burdensome, bureaucratic policies and restrictions they’d love to see imposed on the US, if not the entire world. To make matters more idiotic, too many of these same religionists (into the theology of liberalism) will demand the government be big-hearted towards Islamic immigrants and any socio-cultural boundaries that may pertain to them (ie, Nidal-Hasan-ization).
Mark (c160ec) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:14 pmFrom DRJ’s quote above:
For several years, scientists wrote off the stall as noise in the climate system: the natural variations in the atmosphere, oceans and biosphere that drive warm or cool spells around the globe.
My main point all along is that using data from 1900 or so and on, people were talking about the earth cooling and entering into a new ice age by the late 70’s, I remember being a little apprehensive about that when I heard it from Mr. Spock himself (no more tennis for me, can’t afford indoor courts). Then with another 10-15 years of data they claimed they could make this certain prediction about it warming. I figured to myself, “Self, what significance does 15 years of data have to do with the history of the earth?” And my self answered, “Well, not much that you can tell for sure”.
MD in Philly (f9371b) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:26 pmSo from that point on my self and I decided we would just wait and see how this pans out. We have not been impressed.
Now, I know there is all of this talk about tree ring proxies for temperature and many other surrogate measurements, and how some have been debated, especially the in/famous “hockey stick”, but I’ve figured, as the fellow mentioned in my previous comment, that things out in nature are a bit complicated, and I’m a little dubious about claims based on surrogate measurements from thousands or more years ago, unless they all really line up well together, and are consistent with real time actual measurements.
So they are welcome to “hand wave” all they want, and maybe even they will be shown to be right one day, but the evidence at the moment is a tough sell, especially if there is no readily available remedy anyway.
Maybe I was being a jerk, but that doesn’t make me wrong. carlitos is exhibiting exactly the kind of dysfunctional response to the Paris attack that the Islamists depend upon. It’s what encourages them to keep going. And frankly I am convinced they have a point. When forced to choose between following the facts or remaining faithful to their programming, liberals will choose to remain faithful to their programming.
I see carlitos is still going on about the false equivalence between the scriptures of various faiths.
What I’m arguing against, elissa, is the bottomless pit of intellectual laziness this guy is excusing with meaningless nonsense like this.
So what if you can twist the religious texts of the Jains as well as the religious texts of the Muslims? If you want to study a religion of peace, you don’t need to twist the scripture of Jainism. They are non-violent to the point where they aren’t even vegetarians. Because killing a plant is still killing, in their view. They only consume the byproducts of life, nuts, fruits, milk, and not life itself.
On the other hand, if you want a violent religion you don’t need to twist anything about Islam. If you recall a few years ago some soldiers unfairly got in trouble for burning Qurans from a library in a detention center in Afghanistan. And the reason why is because the detainees were marking them up and using them to communicate violent plans. They didn’t need to mark those Qurans up very much. Because the Quran is one, big violent recipe.
In order to make Islam into a religion of peace, you have to twist it. In order to make Jainism into a religion of violence you have to twist it. When you start with different raw material, you end up with different results if you don’t twist the texts. And you end up with different results if you do twist the texts.
But people like carlitos have been indoctrinated to studiously avoid the facts. And they’ve been indoctrinated to not believe their irrational response to acts of Quranic murder have anything to do with Islam.
Which fills the hearts of the Jihadists with hope. The one thing they can count on is that their victims will reliably and predictably seek to find fault with everything except Islam whenever they commit such an atrocity.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:49 pmIt looks like I missed a global warming discussion. Whole lot of nor there Sammy. Whole lot of sense too.
The only tipping point possible is the transition from liquid water to ice or vice versa, oddly not the disaster the democrats are trying to sell.
Governor Brown’s whole SOS deserves a thorough fisking. Chocked full of stupidities like our forests and grasslands are endangered by increased plant food in the atmosphere (wtf? – not the only wtf moment, just the one that leaped out).
You can judge the content of the science by the content of the character of the “heroes” of global warming.
Steven Schneider:
Thus explaining Schneider’s seemless transition from preaching eminent destruction from the coming ice age in 1979, to preaching eminent destruction from global warming in 1980, if we don’t renounce our hedonistic addiction to fossil fuel in both instances.
Lonnie Thompson – who when it was pointed out to him that Al Gore mislabeled the notorious hockey stick graph as Professor Thompson’s ice core thermometer in the seminal work of AGW fraud “An Inconvenient Truth“, answered “That’s not my problem.”
I should note probably that Lonnie Thompson’s actual ice core thermometer showed no appreciable warming.
Michael Mann – Do I even need to go into his multiple transgressions against truth logic and basic decency? Start with his PhD dissertation and work forward.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:54 pmWow. Comment 430. My last computer would have puked around 200 or so.
Considerable upgrade.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:02 pmpapertiger (c2d6da) — 1/8/2015 @ 7:54 pm
I think one idea they have is that a big Greenland ice sheet might fall into the ocean, and there’s no way of telling how close we are.
That’s supposed to cause changes in rainfall patterns = droughts where is now lots of rain. And floods in other places.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:03 pmSteve–249, 252 266 2609 273 280 293.
elissa (f9db24) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:04 pmI see Ace is thinking along similar lines as I am tonight. Even down to his choice of examples.
http://acecomments.mu.nu/?post=354230
Muslims “avenge” their prophet.
Naturally, let’s all respond by doing some navel gazing about that violence in the Old Testament.
It’s safer on so many different levels.
Steve57 (be0b5f) — 1/8/2015 @ 8:12 pmYeah but Sammy there is no trend in drought or flooding. The paper tried to create an artificial one by selectively truncating the rainfall average right around 2006. They lobbed off about 100 years of rainfall data so they could get totals to trend slightly higher in Sacramento, only including the exceptionally wet eighties to present.
papertiger (c2d6da) — 1/8/2015 @ 11:59 pmBut that doesn’t help their cause because they want to claim the recent dry years as a trend.
It only ends up turning their truncated record back toward the long term average.
How about we respond by sowing the ground for 10 miles around Mecca with radioactive plutonium salts?
Tim (33a58b) — 1/9/2015 @ 1:45 pmI saw this in the Friday New York Post: (it is actually a George Will column)
It is based on two books: “The Third Horseman: Climate Change and the Great Famine of the 14th Century,” William Rosen“ and Global Crisis: War, Climate Change & Catastrophe in the Seventeenth Century,” Geoffrey Parker. This about the yeasr 1309 and 13145, and 1675 and the early 1690s is new to me.
http://nypost.com/2015/01/08/the-lessons-of-climate-change-past
Could someone please explain why “global warming” is bad?
Because I don’t think that’s been established.
Oh yes, the floods, the hurricanes, loss of land.. But is that correct, anyway, and wouldn’t levees and dikes, shelters or seeding hurrianes, and abandoning coastal land be cheaper?
Tropical diseases and insects migrating north? Fish dying because the water is too warm, and warm water has less oxygen dissolved in it?
What a roundabout way to affect that, even if that’s correct.
Sammy Finkelman (6b5229) — 1/11/2015 @ 8:59 am